And that ground had been vacant for as long as I can remember. And I don't know of anybody that was knocking on your door, begging to construct something there.
That's accurate. (Councilwoman Verna takes over the Chair.)
Thank you, Madame Chair. Just to follow up a question that Frank DiCicco was talking about. You say 10,000 jobs. Is that 10,000 new jobs or are we talking about jobs that may be moving from one area of the city to another? 68 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
I think, Councilman, I would have to actually go back and look at it in detail. Almost all of these are new jobs. The one that Councilwoman Verna just mentioned, PNC, 800 of these jobs were in Philadelphia; we were going to lose them to New Jersey.
Some were, quote, retained. But in almost all instances, they are new.
I'm talking about the ones that we're considering today. Are we talking about --
These are all new. The ones today are all new, don't exist.
Thank you very much. Anyone else? (No further questions at this time.)
Thank you very much for your time and consideration. 69 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
The Chair recognizes Mr. David Volpe who, I understand, is here, representing the Philadelphia Controller's Office. (Brett Mandel and Kevin Babyak come forward in place of David Volpe.)
Mr. Volpe had to run to a meeting. I will read his testimony and will be available to answer any questions.
My name is Brett Mandel, and I'm an Assistant City Controller.
The City has used tax increment financing to leverage private investment in a number of City projects. To date, a total 8 projects have been approved, and 6 more are pending. Consistent with the intent of the enabling Commonwealth legislation, these projects are projected to grow the local economy. The purpose of this testimony is not to argue for our or against TIFs as a vehicle to grow the local economy; rather, the Controller's Office would like to comment on three aspects of the 70 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS City's current use of the tax increment financing process. Number one, we agree with the comment that Councilman Nutter made. The allocation of tax increment disregards the financial hardship of the Philadelphia School District. This is simply a matter of the one-sided nature of the School District's tax base. Unlike the City, which has a well-diversified tax base, the School District relies heavily on the use-and-occupancy tax and the property tax to fund services. Unfortunately for the School District, the property tax is the first tax increment used to pay off development costs. If additional funding is needed, then the other tax increments are used to fund the project. At times, the use-and-occupancy tax is the second incremental tax revenue source used. Thus, while the School District's primary source of revenue, the property tax, is earmarked to pay off the note, the City is able to garner revenue from the wage, sales and business privilege tax. Secondly, the "but-for" test. We recognize that this is a best guess. We do not 71 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS truly know if development would take place one or two years down the road without the TIF. It is likely that if the government focuses on creating the conditions for the market to work -- by example, by reducing taxes or improving the City's infrastructure -- development would, indeed, take place without the TIF. As an example, the Administration and City Council should be credited with taking appropriate steps to raise the demand for hotel space in the City through the development of such complementary goods as the Avenue of the Arts and Convention Center. However, as the demand is greater, the less there should be a need for TIFs. Third, there may be too much emphasis on the hospitality and tourism sector of the economy. Many of the TIF Districts have been used to fund development of the hospitality and tourism sector. While it is extremely important to make the City of Philadelphia a destination city, it may be a risky proposition to place so much emphasis on the development of this sector. In forthcoming report to be issued by our office, it will be shown that the growth of 72 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS the local hospitality and tourism sector will likely be driven by other sectors of the economy, such as the high-tech trades and financial services. There must be some systematic criteria for determining which assets should be developed. What can we do to avoid these problems? Given the financial situation of the Philadelphia School District, an agreement should be made whereby the School District will share equally with the City from any benefits from the development in a TIF District. Consistent with other jurisdictions throughout the United States, the City may wish to consider exempting all or a portion of the School District portion of the property tax base from the TIF. Or a credit could be offered to the School District City for a portion of City revenues generated from the development of the TIF District. We simply want to make the School District whole for what they are giving up in the tax increment. We also may want to think a little bit more about the but-for test. If the City needs to use TIFs as a gap financing for a deal to go through, it must be made clear that this 73 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS development would not have taken place but for the TIF.
Perhaps there should be more independent analysis, perhaps an organization such as the Controller's Office should independently verify the but-for argument and the numbers being used. Finally, with regard to the overdevelopment of the hospital and tourism sector, there is a need for systemic criteria determining which areas, besides hospitality and tourism, should be developed. Then the TIFs could be allocated based on this criteria. For example, the City could use criterias where the City has a competitive advantage, what the long-term prospects for growth are, and what the impact of the growth on that area has on the local economy. For example, if research performed by the Controller's Office staff showed that the promotion of high-tech trades would provide the City with a greater return on investment from the City's economic development dollar. Ultimately, it may also be the growth of this sector business which relies heavily on travel that will determine the future path of the hospitality and tourism sector. 74 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS The Controller's Office is currently in the process of analyzing all of the current and planned TIF project deals in terms of their impact on the School District and whether or not the but-for test is met with some degree of certainty. We would be happy to share the results of this analysis in upcoming testimony, and we look forward to releasing that in the near future.
Thank you, Mr. President. Just a few comments. With all due respect to the Controller and to Mr. Volpe and the gentlemen at the table, there seems to be this continuing misunderstanding that what we're dealing with before we start this development is an empty lot, a piece of ground with nothing on it. Whether it's in Tinicum or whether it's in Center City, there's nothing there. There's no 22 taxes being generated for the School District, for the City or for anybody. There are no jobs as a result of that empty lot; jobs that pay wage taxes, sales taxes, business privilege taxes, and 75 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS also enable people to work, to earn a living to buy a house to pay real estate taxes that go to the School District and to the City. Without the TIF, which is not giving away anything 'cause we don't have it yet to give it away, the project won't get done. And for the years that I've sat here since TIF process has started, for the years I've sat here and listened to this, there seems to be this ongoing misunderstanding that we're taking something out of our pocket and handing it to somebody else. The problem is the pocket's empty. In order to fill up the pocket, you've got to do the development to provide the jobs to provide the taxes to provide the services to provide the education. I can't -- I get bewildered sometimes when people testify or comment that somehow this is giving City dollars away.
We don't disagree with you there. The City has the choice to use the property tax or other taxes in the TIF.
We could use different 76 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS revenue from different taxes.
Yeah. We've done a combination of different taxes on different TIFs.
The property tax, though, of course hurts the School District. The School District gives up 55 percent --
Sir, you -- we don't TIF existing property taxes. Any property taxes the School District or the City would get -- I tried to cover that, then you sit right down and confuse everybody. Any existing property taxes that any government gets --
-- it continues to get, they continue to get. What we're doing is, we're TIFing something that doesn't exist now.
We're borrowing the money on the potential of that development.
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's really unfair to make it seem like we're taking something away from the School District in order to give it to somebody else, 'cause that's just really isn't what's happening 77 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS here. And people can quarrel with all kinds of parts about this, but don't -- please don't make it seem -- and I have that same frustration, I tried to cover that earlier, and then we -- here it is again.
But remember again, I just want to reemphasize this. For every job that's created, there's a young person that's coming into the economy, into the working world, who can earn a living, get benefits, buy a house, get married, raise their kids, and pay real estate taxes. The loss of residents over the last 15, years in this city has been phenomenal. 17 They're all living in South Jersey, they're all 18 living in Delaware County. All I want to do is 19 keep my young people here and give them a chance 20 to work at jobs that they don't necessarily need a Harvard degree to do. And without that, we're never going to survive, no neighborhood's going to survive, and the City's not going to survive at all. And the only other thing I would 78 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS suggest on a more minor point is the issue of concentration on the hospitality industry. Sad to say, the hospitality industry in this country is the only growth industry we have left, the only growth industry we have left, with the exception of one other thing I wanted to mention -- and that's Kvaerner. Kvaerner is not hospitality; Kvaerner is rivets and nuts and bolt and sheet metal and people with hard hats and steel-toed work boots. That's what we TIFed at the Navy Yard, that's what we TIFed down there. So we're not just TIFing the hospitality industry. We want people to come in on cruise ships and come and visit and go to the convention and do all that happy stuff. But we also want to put people in steel-toed work boots and hats t go down to Kvaerner. We TIF them too.
Well, let me tell you something, in major cities, if you look around the major cities today, what we're doing is attracting these recreational, hospitality hotels -- and thank God we have 'em, thank God they're 79 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS willing to invest. People want to denigrate Disney and do all that, fine, come on in. Come on, Mickey Mouse, come in. It may be simple and silly to some people, but people work in those places, they work in there. If you go to Disney World and you'll see the numbers of people that are working and the type of community they have there, we'll never be Disney World, but we can get a little piece of all that stuff. And to denigrate, I think, is unfair.
Gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you. It's nice of you to come. (Councilman Nutter comments off-mike, inaudible.)
Councilman Nutter, your point is well taken. We have at least two other people who wish to speak on. I have a note here that says Mr. Scheickel and Mr. Lawson would like to speak for two and a half minutes. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Each? 80 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS
No, together. We will recognize them for one minute and seconds 4 each. Are they here? 5 (Messrs. Scheickel and Lawson come 6 forward.) 7
Yes, President Street. 10 My name is Sarto Scheickel, and I'm an 11 architectural and urban designer in Philadelphia. 12 I have studied the Convention Center area for many 13 years and have made a variety of proposals for 14 open space in that area. And that is one of the 15 concerns I want to speak to you about today. In general, I support the TIF District being sought by Filbert Streets Associates for the parking garage. However, I have some specific concerns about the lack of open space. In particular, I feel that in reading the original tax increment financing law, the Tax Increment District Law of 1990, it states, for example, that it is the purpose of the law to provide additional and alternative means to finance various projects, all to the public and good. 81 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And further, it talks about various conditions of blight, what are called "blighted conditions," which can justify the use of tax increment financing. And they include six items, and item No. 2 is inadequate planning of the area or excessive land coverage of the buildings thereon. And item No. 3 is a lack of proper air, light, and open space. So right in the law, the tax increment financing law, it speaks very much about open-space issues. And even in the first item, it talks about crowded conditions and so forth. So while there are very good qualities about the proposal from Filbert Streets Associates in terms of job creation and in terms of the creation of parking, which is needed, there are other qualities of the project that -- specifically the lack of open space which, personally, I don't feel conform to the spirit of the tax increment financing law. And if the Councilmembers don't have a copy of the law, I'll pass I around here. If you don't have it in front of you or haven't read it recently. 82 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS (Copy of cited law distributed to members of Council.)
So what I am leading up to is that if the City is going to provide 6.6 million in TIF, which is a form of a grant in a sense to the developer, it seems to me that some accommodation for open space may be in order. And I want to suggest that with some minor modifications of the Filbert Streets Associates proposal, more open space could be created, and I'd like to pass out a diagram.
You have now been three minutes and 15 seconds. Now, you know, we know each other.
For a long time. And you know that I have arranged and insisted that Mr. Hankowsky's people, people in the Administration and folks who volunteer meet with you to discuss all of this. Is that fair to say?
Because you know how 83 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS much I appreciate your service and have said that Mr. Scheickel's point of view should be considered. It has been considered. And apparently, it hasn't carried the day. And you know, we believe that you're entitled to be heard on this. Councilman DiCicco will tell you that because he knows. I mean, you know, you have wonderful ideas. And we really appreciate those ideas.
President Street, what I want to suggest today is -- I'm not trying to bring another proposal before you, I'm not trying to push aside this proposal.
What I'm suggesting is a minor adjustment in it could yield meaningful open space. And, with your permission, I'd like to share a diagram about that with you.
No, I didn't ask you 84 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS where it was. Boy, I'll tell you, I asked you, "How long will it take?" And you said, "I have it right here." How long will it take?
When you look at it, it will take just about 30 seconds to get what I'm driving at.
You pass it out. And can you be done in three minutes? There are people waiting for all these other things. And I guess -- I mean, I know these people know what it is that you have talked about because we've -- this is not the first time we've been this way. (Copies of above-referenced diagram distributed to members of Council.)
On the bottom of the page, if you hold it with the color diagram on the top, on the bottom of the page, in the green area, you will see the 25-foot setback along 12th Street, which is proposed in the Filbert Streets Associates plan. And on the top is the concept that I 85 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS have for creating a 90-foot setback to create a park with fountains, pavilions, and whatnot, which could provide an amenity which would open up views of the neighboring buildings and provide places for people to come outside of the Reading Terminal Market and eat. Now, in the colorful diagram, in the yellow area, you see an above-ground parking garage, which is in the same location as the developer's proposal, only it's pulled back somewhat. And in the pink area would be the location for a future hotel. Now, these basic elements of garage, future hotel and open space are the same elements that the developer is seeking to do in the long term. And I respectfully request that the Council give further consideration to this, as to whether there is some way to include this kind of meaningful open space and still achieve an above-ground parking garage and a hotel project in the future for the developer.
We appreciate you coming. You know, I appreciate your work. Is there anyone else who wishes to testify on the four tax increment financing bills? If not, we will take them under advisement. Council will now consider -- oh, I'm sorry. Who's -- (Others come forward.)
My name is Steven Lechinski and I'm organizing with the Living Wage Coalition campaign here in Philadelphia. This is a coalitional a effort of 65 organizations, including the AFL-CIO, the Catholic Church, ACORN, and other organizations. And our main concern is that the jobs that get created in Philadelphia are living-wage jobs. And that's why we're here today. And, in general, the idea of the TIFs can be good or bad. And we at the Coalition understand the increment financing. We know that this is not taking away any money. And so we're not proposing that. But the sort of point is that the devil 87 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS is in the details and that City Council, who's prepared to approve these TIFs, really needed to take a look at the kind of jobs that are being created. In general, TIFs can create good-paying jobs, and we've seen that in places like Kvaerner. They can establish centers of commerce, which are desperately needed in Councilwoman Clark's and in low-income neighborhoods. And they can be absolutely good investments. They are not by definition good or bad. It's really a question of timing. One point minor point that we wanted to make, and this is in relation to job creation, is that these job creations is dubious. And if Council's interested, I mean, we can provide information on past PIDC-funded -supported job creation programs that did not work. And so we just wanted to make the point that what Mr. Hankowsky was alluding to, 10,000 or however many jobs, I mean these are predictions and estimates that often do not come true. That's the first detail. The second detail is that you really 88 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS are missing something when you just talk about job creation. And you talk about what kind of jobs are these that are being created. It's a parking garage, these are movie theaters, this is retail stores. And these are excellent entry-level jobs, jobs that people, like Councilman Kenney said, people without a Harvard degree -- and I'm included in that -- can take and can work at. But unlike Council Kenney's vision, these are not jobs that lead people to buying houses. These are not jobs that lead to people sending their children to school. These are $6-an-hour jobs, these are $7-an-hour jobs. And it's a myth to think that these jobs are for teenagers or these jobs are for senior citizens who are just supplementing their income. I mean, these are actually -- most people in minimum-wage jobs are head of household, and this is their only form of income. And one out of three jobs in Philadelphia pays less than $8 an hour. This is a major problem in Philadelphia and the reason that supermarket closed at Progress Plaza, because they can't make money, because people don't shop there, because 89 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS the people in that neighborhood don't have the money to shop there. So now you have a situation where you have an opportunity to develop businesses. This is a great opportunity. And to point to Mr. Hankowsky's points, unlike abatements, these are negotiations. You sit across the table from somebody. And they say, We want to come in. We say, Great, what will it take to get you here? And you go back and forth on that. To go back to Councilman Nutter's points, what are the principles? How do you decide whether a TIF is good or not good? And there aren't any externally. I mean, we hope there are some internally at PIDC, but there aren't any externally that the public or knows about. So the Living Wage Coalition suggests this is an excellent principle, is that you -- before you approve a TIF, you get a commitment from those employees to pay $8 an hour.
In summary, which is 90 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS where we're getting to, this is a great opportunity that Council should not blow this opportunity by not asking the question, What are you going to pay as part of this TIF? We want to have a movie theater in north central Philadelphia, we want to have supermarkets in low-income neighborhoods. And we also want people to be able to afford to shop there. We want people to be able to go see those movies. Working $6- or $7-an-hour does not get you there, does not really help the neighborhood. So City Council, on behalf of the community, should go one step further and just ask these companies to agree to pay 8 bucks an hour to get the TIF. And we believe they'll do that. Thanks.
Mitch -- and I can't understand my writing. It looks like D-E-I-G-H-A-N. (Mr. Deighan comes forward.)
Council President Street, a minute ago, you said to Sarto Scheickel, "How long would it take?" 91 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And I know that often here in City Council chambers, you discuss the phenomenon where people move out of our great city, for whatever reason, I presume there's a whole lot of 'em. I'm sure Councilman Kenney has articulated most, if not all, of them. I know of his great personal concern for this realm. But it's a horrible phenomenon when we see somebody who chooses my neighborhood, Northern Liberties, over a condo in Mt. Laurel, and they move in, and they only last a couple years. And I feel that they move back out at times because the attractiveness of the vision of the soul of the City of Philadelphia isn't strong enough to keep them here, with all of the testing problems that we have living in urban neighbor. And I know me, when it comes to this. What brought me into the City of Philadelphia to make a life 20, 30 years ago was the great visions that created Independence Mall, that created Penn's Landing, that made a livable neighborhood out of Society Hill. The idea of integrating open space in our lives within an urban context is a very attractive idea for people in the city. 92 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS And in Northern Liberties, once again, my neighborhood, those projects, Liberty Lands, are private nature reserves that some of us own and maintain throughout the little streets of the neighborhood. These are the enclaves where people -- the highest quality of development, the highest concentration of development happens.
My point is that the Pennsylvania Convention Center is really the Philadelphia Convention Center. And the City of Philadelphia, from what I've understood in my lifetime, is -- the soul of our city is in part linked to the idea that space, that people's contact with nature --
I'd like to suggest to City Council, What would we have if we had a 7-story parking garage in the middle of 93 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS Independence Mall or in any of the other significant public project that we've all worked to produce? The Pennsylvania Convention Center -- really the Philadelphia Convention Center should really be a statement about what our city stands for. And in this century, the 20th century, we have stood for rebuilding the city around spaces for -- public places for people, exterior public places for people. The Pennsylvania Convention Center, with all of its greatness that currently exists with its development, left out that part of the equation. And the Market Square, for me, the appeal of the Market Square plan, and now the diminished Market Square plan, is that it reinforces, it states to all who come to our great city that we are Philadelphia. We're not some other place, we are Philadelphia, this is what we stand for. And whereas the other TIF Districts, the ones in the neighborhoods that you spoke about today, I think, are great ideas. But I think the one involving the Convention Center garage is 94 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS incorrect for the future of our city, and that's why I came down here today, to say that.
Anyone else to testify on the TIF bills? Just come up, whoever is here, just sit at the table. (Messrs. Dellaratia and Oaks come forward.)
President Street, members of City Council, my name is Bill. Along with me I have Harry Oaks. We represent the Reading Terminal Market Merchants Association. And we are here to speak in favor of Bill No. 16 980549. Bill No. 980549 will cause the erection of a garage across the street from the Reading Terminal Market, affording market customers, many of whom leave the market with heavy packages, convenient parking. The Reading Terminal Market remains very much a farmers market, with 48 purveyors of fresh foods. I come here today to address this bill because the Market has for sometime been in dire need of reliable, low-cost 95 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS parking for market shoppers. Before the Convention Center was built, market shoppers had access to a low-cost parking garage across the street from the Market, on the lot bounded by 12th to 13th Streets, from Arch to Cherry. That lot had a capacity of approximately 700 cars. That parking was totally lost when construction of the Convention Center was commenced, and the parking has never been replaced. Recognizing the predicament that the loss of these hundreds of space posed, the City and the Redevelopment Authority joined with the Reading Terminal Market Merchants Association to protect the market as a viable City resource by requiring the Continuous Market Operation agreement, which was the organizational document for the market that exists today. That for each -- excuse me. That for each space in the vicinity of the market that was lost by virtue of the construction of the Convention Center, the Convention Center Authority would be obliged to develop, or cause to be developed, another space in the general location 96 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS of the market. Unfortunately, the Convention Center Authority did not live up to its end of the bargain. And although all of the 700 spaces on the site of the Convention Center were lost, not a single space was developed, or caused to be developed, by the Convention Center Authority. In the intervening years, there has been little parking development --
Sir, do you think it would be possible for you to summarize?
In summary, we would like to see the TIF money be approved and the garage built so that Reading Market shoppers will have access to low-cost parking.
Is there anyone that has anything to add to that statement? (No response.)
We'd also like to thank our councilman from our district, Councilman 97 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS DiCicco.
My name is John Lawson, John Lawson Architects. I'm a Center City resident. I've been following the development of the Convention Center and the Convention Center district for approximately years, and I was 10 head of the Urban Design Committee for the 11 American Institute of Architects. 12 And as Mitch Deighan mentioned, one of 13 the missing pieces for this major public building is the major public space. The reason I am testifying today is to support the TIF, the idea of TIF, but I have questions about the planning that goes on and can go on after the TIF is proposed, after the TIF is approved for this -- in particular for 980549, for the parking garage from Filbert to Cuthbert, from 12th to 13th. Although the TIF is described in the public notice description as going to Arch Street, it appears, after looking at the diagram, that it's only a narrow strip of land, which gives access to a proposed parking garage from Arch 98 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS Street. So to me, that's already -- that would then divide the buildings to the east of that proposed Arch Street driveway, which is the subject that Sarto Scheickel was just talking about. These are the low-rise 19th-century structures that you see there and kind of build up to the much taller buildings on 13th Street, at 13th and Arch, which are to remain. So what bothers me about the proposal and in the plan description is the vagueness of that corner of 12th and Arch, which is the entrance point to the Convention Center. I would like to see some way that either that could be not left in ambiguity, such as the parking lot at 13th and Market, which is called "a temporary parking lot." The parking lot north of the Criminal Justice Center is called "a temporary parking lot." They're made beautiful. You know they have brick and wrought iron and nice lighting, etc. But there are many, many tourists -- this is the center of activity now, and especially from the Convention Center going north, south and west, up into the or parts of Avenue of the Arts and the 99 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS developments in Center City. So I would ask that the idea of an overall plan for the Convention Center District be continued, either through the Planning Commission or whomever, in order to accommodate these new developments. In other words, what is the impact of this proposed parking garage upon the site, which is the next site to be purchased or to be taken over by the Redevelopment Authority for development. And my final point is that open space can be good development as well as developing for-profit buildings. The jobs do not -- I can't say how many jobs come from open space, but I just want to reiterate the importance of it. And I think the brilliance of Sarto Scheickel's plan is a first step as far as the open space itself to really finally cement the location of the Convention Center at this place in Philadelphia. Thank you.
Please identify 100 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS yourself for the record.
Yes. My name is Bob Pearson. I'm a resident of Philadelphia, and I work downtown. And I'll limit myself to about a minute and a half. The proposed Tax Increment Financing District falls short of in anticipation or lasting value. And this -- I'm talking about the Convention Center Garage TIF District. This proposal would put a parking garage in the space framed by the Reading Terminal Market, the Convention Center, and Marriott Hotel. This magnificent deserves a much better subject than a parking garage. This magnificent frames begs for something of lasting value that visitors to the area and resident taxpayers can use and be proud of. This magnificent frame deserves a public space, a park, a plaza at ground level, a public space a crossroads for humanity, a friendly meeting and resting space that would complement RittenHouse Square to the east of Broad Street, a public space that the taxpayers will use and visitors will admire, a public space that will make citizens proud of the elected officials and 101 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS appointed officials who had the foresight to create it for us and for future generations. The TIF mechanism is supposed to be applied to result in a development all to the public benefit and good. The TIF legislation is designed to remove urban blight due to excessive land coverage and lack of proper air and light and open space. And I ask, does the proposed parking garage cover less land than the parking lot that's there now or does it increase light or open space? Do hundreds of more automobiles improve air in the area? The answer is clearly no. 15 So where is the public good in the proposed TIF project? We expect better than that, and you can do person this, particularly when win-win options are available. Members of City Council, you can satisfy the purpose of TIF by requiring open space at ground level on a meaningful part of the block west of the Reading Terminal Market to improve air, light, and decreased land coverage. You can say to the developer, We will approve the proposed TIF, we will give you a tax gift in the future if 102 11/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - TIF BILLS you will provide open space, a well-designed public square at street level. But you must put parking underground and above ground to the west of the public square if you want our support. This solution is in keeping with the purpose of TIF redevelopment and could not be challenged. This solution is a wonderful, long-lasting, and (unintelligible) gift to taxpayers of Philadelphia. Please, please revise the proposed TIF legislation to create a public space along 12th Street, between Arch and Filbert Street, in exchange for the tax benefit to private investors. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Is there anyone else here to testify on the TIF bills? (No response.)
Seeing none, we will now consider Bill No. 980794. This is an ordinance amending Subcode "PM" of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "The Philadelphia Property Maintenance Code," by extending the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program to cover 103 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 abandoned vacant lots, under certain terms and conditions. There are a number of people here, I know, from the community who wish to support this bill. The Chair first recognizes Blaine Bonham, Pennsylvania Horticultural Society. (Mr. Bonham comes forward.)
Good morning to Council President, to City Council and their staffs. , Executive Vice President of the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society, and I am here today to voice support for the proposed amendment. Through its Philadelphia Green Program, PHS has worked with neighborhood-based organizations across the City to create green, open spaces out of vacant lots in their communities. In many cases, these green spaces can be temporary remedies to eyesores that negatively impact the area, or they can be planned open spaces that will complement the redevelopment of the neighborhood and serve the community in the future. Over the years, communities have 104 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 demonstrated that this focus on open space is an integral part of successful community development plans, and it serves as a powerful tool in the social and psychological health and vitality of the community as well as its physical appearance. The challenge of organizing resources that include human resources, equipment, supplies and dollars to achieve the transformation of derelict vacant land is often made all the more difficult by a bureaucratic municipal system that cannot support these efforts. In fact, unfortunately thwarts them. This frustration can crush the efforts to remake one lot on a block into a community asset or it can obstruct the neighborhood-wide plans of a community development corporation in its long-term uphill attempt to rebuild a shattered neighborhood. For some neighborhoods, the amount of vacant land currently existing, plus the vacant lots that will be created from the large number of derelict structures that will be demolished within the next few years threatens to overwhelm the community development achievements of even the most successful CDCs. The viability of new 105 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 housing developments are in jeopardy if they are surrounded by vacant land that will remain so for several years, until development occurs. Our work with the CDCs currently focuses on trying to manage the land in the interim as a way of rebuilding a neighborhood and creating that quality of life that we all seek. The frustrations that community leaders experience in trying to deal with irresponsible land owners and a City system that lacks the teeth to remedy the problem is unfortunately an all-too-common themselves. For instance, in New Kensington, where we have been working with the CDC over the last three years to establish a model for the community management of its vacant land and open spaces, the historic frustrations of just trying to get empty lots transferred to the City system to adjacent homeowners as a key strategy for addressing some of the 1100 lots were enormous until a special pilot project was tried through the Office of Housing and Community Development to expedite the process. In the meantime, potential next door 106 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 owners were reluctant to invest in improvements in these properties, which really prolonged the damaging effect that they had on the community. So this emergency abatement legislation gives individuals the legal authority to act to clean up blight. Thousands of families have already begun the effort of cleaning up the lots next to them, and they should be recognized and legitimized by this legislation, along with those who will participate in the future. We believe this legislation will probably be most useful for creating side yards and back yards. Plans to create new streetscape designs to improve the overall look of the neighborhood and create a sense of place stymied by unresponsive owners of vacant lots who ignore the community's plea to clean up their act and cooperate with the new plans. The area around 6th and Norris, where Associacion de Puertoriquenos en Marcha is redeveloping the community is a wash in vacant land.
Ambitious housing, commercial, and open space plans face the hurdle of first getting control of vacant property and then managing and improving the land to complement their efforts. 107 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 So we think amendment to this code is an important first step in a comprehensive approach that the City must adopt in the near future to address the vacant land crisis, and we can all be pleased that City Council is taking this seriously. There are there are several concerns that communities have expressed that Council should consider in acting on this legislation: First, not all the impacted neighborhoods of this city are included in the current abatement areas, and these areas should be expanded to include all the census tracts in which significant numbers of buildings have been demolished in the past 30 years, particularly, neighborhoods like New Kensington and Frankford, where the current boundaries are not included. The cost of the actions -- another issue is that the cost of the actions to make the lots safe should be recoverable by the individual or family taking the action. When the City executes an abatement agreement, it should recognize that the individual will be investing funds. And these funds, if properly documented, 108 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 should be recoverable as mechanic's lien or other such claim against the property. The allowable activities in the abatement contract should include fencing. In the past, families have found themselves with L&I citations for failing to get a permit for a fence when they install a fence to secure an abandoned lot. Trees, grass and other minimal improvements should also be allowable activities. Third, the problem of acquisition of vacant land is not being addressed by this legislation, and it is critical, especially for small lots like side yard and back yards. The family investing in the cleanup and security should know that they will eventually get title to the property if they want it. But it seems to be an established City policy that the sheriff's sale will not be used for acquisition in any significant way. And the question is, does this legislation reflect a change in that policy? Another issue is that staffing for the program is critical. There will be significant demand for this type of support. L&I will need funds to respond to requests for abatement 109 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 contracts, the sponsoring agency will need support as well, and the sheriff will probably need staffing support to do this if it happens on a large scale. So in summary, PHS is currently working with the Office of Housing and Community Development, the City Planning Commission, the Select Committee on Vacant Land, the Pennsylvania Environmental Council, and the Local Supports Initiative Corporation on a project funded by the William Penn Foundation to develop recommendations for comprehensive approach for a comprehensive approach to addressing the management of vacant land across the City. The recommendations will include management systems that involve the government, the private for-profit and nonprofit sectors, and community organizations. It will suggest new municipal policies and procedures for dealing with the land, and will also suggest potential funding mechanisms to finance the sizeable effort. We feel that this amendment is a first step towards legislation that could remake the face of the City's communities and help recast the 110 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 future of Philadelphia. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Mr. Bonham, you know how much we appreciate what you do at the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society. You do wonderful work, which we regularly support. You have raised a couple of issues here that I would like to very briefly address. The issue that you have that not all impacted areas of the City are included in the current abatement program areas is an issue that can be readily rectified simply by a District Councilperson sponsoring a bill to include areas. What we did not do was expand the number of areas other than what are currently in the code because there may be one or two District Councilmembers that might have some concern if a Councilmember put in a bill that would have the effect of expanding a program into their areas without their -- without their support. So that any area that you think should be included in this program that is not included in the program, you should just simply identify what that area is, whose district that area is in, 111 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 and that -- and go to that Councilmember, and I'm sure that that Councilmember would be more than willing. This is almost what most of us regard as a kind of an apple pie kind of program. But on the other hand, I, as the sponsoring member of this -- the person sponsoring -- the Councilmember on this bill, I didn't think it was appropriate for me to include areas in Councilwoman Verna's district, for example. She can do that because once the program is adopted, any Councilmember -- and this will be primarily a district Councilmember function -- can include, can put in the bill to include any areas in it. We're sympathetic. That's just a process issue that City Councilmembers will be delighted to work with you on.
If anything, it shows that communities really want to have this extended to their neighborhoods so they can act on it.
And I'm sure we'll all be willing to support that. But as a matter of protocol, we didn't think it was appropriate for us to expand the section of the code to 112 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 include areas that are not currently already included because that decision has been made. Now, you also say the cost of the actions to make a lot safe should be recoverable by the individual or the family taking the action. It is my understanding that that is covered by this bill because it's a part of the old 1202-A Program that we are amending.
I think there was just a question about how far that goes with how much people can invest their own resources, get the property --
But in principle, the legislation requires -- permits them to recover. I think that becomes an L&I decision along with the group as the group that enters into its development contract. So I don't think that that is a significant problem for us. The sheriff sale policy is something that we'll be dealing with long beyond the time when any of us are here. I mean, this has been a -- at least I have been talking about this for at least 19 years, and I don't know that we can resolve that. 113 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 Staffing for the program is critical. We agree with you. This is a budget, a City operating budget item that well get to during the course of our consideration of the budget. There may very well need to be additional L&I people to work with implementing the program, and we can take care of that tat that time. So that as a bottom line, we certainly appreciate your support of this program.
I agree with you, having been involved in this whole vacant property issue for many, many, many years, as you know, probably -- I mean, there's -- so much of the land in my district falls within this program that we think that we have to do something, and this is one of the things that we can do, but we appreciate your being here today and your support of the program. Does anyone have any questions of Mr. Bonham? I see some lights flashing. We'll start with Councilwoman Verna.
Thank you. Are 114 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 you going to be in touch with each of the District Councilmembers so that we could review this with you --
I just saw a map. I don't have it in front of me. It's largely the center spine -- you probably know, Council President, it's largely the center spine of North Philadelphia. It's got District 3, a lot of West Philadelphia, up into District 8, and parts of 1. I don't think it has too of -- there we go, maybe you could. . . It doesn't have very much of your district, Councilwoman Verna.
There are pieces of North Philadelphia, east of Broad, where there's an enormous amount of vacant land now. And maybe, 115 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 when this was originally set up, it wasn't such the case, but it certainly is now. And I know in some of the communities that I've talked to that we've worked with said, Gee, it doesn't apply to us and we really need the teeth in the ordinance 7 to be able to act on it.
Well, I would appreciate your calling my office for an appointment because I would like to sit and talk to you about this.
My comment really goes to you, Mr. Street, as the primary sponsor. In the North Philadelphia area, one of the problems that one encounters in dealing with vacant lots is the ticketing process that happens if a fence is put up. I notice that this testimony that Blaine Bonham has given does address that issue of permits for fencing lots. What is your intent with respect to that towards making it easier for people to not 116 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 have to deal with the ticketing that goes with the lack of the permit?
Councilwoman, what a group would do is sit down with the Department of Licenses and Inspections and work out a development plan for the lot and get the lot and be able to spend money, develop that lot. And if anything ever happened at any time, under the law, the real estate laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and there are all kinds of problems that can happen. For example, lots can get tied up into estates, and they're there, and it can drag on and on and on. And we're in a horrible position where, you know, many times, the neighborhood can't go on the lot, they can't develop the lot, they can't do anything. And trash is on the lot and people do all kinds of crazy things. What this bill will allow them to do is enter into an agreement essentially with the Department of L&I, go on the lot, fence it, improve it, do something that the neighbors think is in their best interests --
Then, when it -- 117 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
Let me finish, Councilwoman. And in the event that anything ever happened and they lost control of the lot because it was in an estate or something, they would be able to get reimbursed for all of the costs that they spent in developing that lot. So it's not a temporal kind of process that might currently exist. They have an opportunity to sit down and work out with the City a license agreement to go on and improve the lot and have it.
But absence the license agreement, I guess we're now talking about the sequence. Suppose a person lives near a vacant lot, that that is contiguous to their property. And in order to make it safe to live in the house, that homeowner will then fence the lot. That person should have gotten the L&I agreement prior to the fencing is what you're saying.
What I'm saying is that right now, L&I has no legal right to give 118 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 them the authority to go on the lot and fence the lot.
Until this. This gives L&I the right to sit down with the homeowner, property owner. And, say, in some cases, there are really big lots that can affect the whole neighborhood.
Because sometimes there have been a series of demolition activities that have taken place for a variety of different reasons, and the neighborhood says we have to do something and are willing to generate resources and work with the Pennsylvania Horticulture Society to develop these lots, but they need to have a legal right to do it.
To be there and to be able to do this. And what this does is, it take the speculation out, it takes -- they don't have to be trespassers.
And it addresses the permit to put a fence up, which is a very 119 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 important impediment to neighbors in self-help efforts.
Yeah. I think what this suggests is that what really needs to have some attention put to it, and I'm sure it's probably something you're thinking about, is working with L&I, which has given these citations out often because, legally, they can. But because there is an increasing number of groups that are trying to do something with vacant lots, there's got to be a way of batching up requests so that it can happen in a timely manner, and people don't get frustrated. So if the permits can happen and things can proceed legally, I think that's really the crux of the problem.
I really do agree that that's the crux of the problem. And I thank you for your explanation.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo for a follow-up.
Mr. President, did I understand that in your statement that you 120 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 suggested that a community group get the approval from L&I to conduct a certain activity, clean up, fence up and then go in and ask for reimbursement?
You must have misunderstood. Hypothetically, there is a block or a neighborhood that has either a vacant land -- a parcel of vacant land or a group of parcels of vacant land. This vacant land tends to attract certain nuisance activity. It could be children, kids hanging out on it, it could be people dumping trash on it or towing cars up on it and setting up little, you know, operations where they're pulling motorists out of their cars. It could be just, you know, just people hanging out. Now, what happens is, you're talk about something interfering with people's capacity to 121 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 enjoy their property, they want to do something. This group here might want to do something with that lot, because the neighborhood, it becomes a nuisance, that lot. Right now, anything they do on the lot, if they do it, it's fundamentally at their own risk. They do not have a right on the lot. L&I doesn't have a right legally, it says, to tell 'em to go on somebody else's property, because that's what it is. What this -- what this nuisance abatement law actually does, and I know a little bit about this because I sponsored the original bill almost maybe 16, years ago. What this 16 does is, it allows the City, under its authority 17 to abate a public nuisance, it allows the City to enter into an agreement with the neighborhoods to go onto the last time, improve the lot, and ultimately get ownership of the lot. Because at the same time they're entitled to go on, what we'd like to do is take the lot through the sheriff's sale process. But people don't want to invest in these lots and go out and raise money and put 122 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 facilities on them if they don't have a legal right to be there. And if something happened and they were put off, then they couldn't get reimbursed. So what they do is, they go to L&I, they say, We want to improve the lot. L&I enters into an agreement with them, authorizing them to go on and spend the money to improve the lot. And then the subsequent process will take place where we will try to take it through a sheriff's sale. Sometimes it can be a private negotiation, right, where they actually get ownership of the lot. In the meantime, if you have a stubborn property owner that says, We want the lots, we don't care, you let 'em go on there. Well, we say, Fine, then pay 'em for the work that they did. Because you were conducting a public nuisance, you were allowing that lot to sit there, doing nothing and allowing trash to pile up and all this other stuff that's a public nuisance. You now have to pay them for the fence that they put up, you pay them for the work that they've done and the maintenance that they've done. So that there will be less of an 123 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 incentive for people to speculate on property 'cause some of these folks are speculators, some of them, not all, some. Some of them are these properties that just caught up in the limbo of estates and all, but they sit there. And we can't TIF 'em 'cause it just doesn't work. (Laughter.)
So what we have to do, if we could TIF 'em, we might have 500 TIFs in here. We can't TIF 'em, but we can do is create a mechanism whereby the City, through the Department of Licenses and Inspections can authorize an entry on the property, authorize money to be spent. Then a -- not a real fancy sophisticated, but a general kind of development plan will be entered into, and they'll all agree to do certain things. And they take literally ownership of the lot. But we want to protect them 'cause we don't want them to spend money and then run the risk of not being reimbursed when some property owner comes back and exercise some right that he or she might have, over which we have no control 'cause that's state law. And they then would be able to get reimbursed. 124 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 But this is a way to abate a public nuisance of vacancy in areas of the City where a lot of it may exist. Now, the reason why we will need some amendments is because not all of those areas were originally covered by the bill that I sponsored many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago. So that if there is an area in Councilwoman Miller's district that's not covered by that, and it's easy to find out, she can just sponsor a bill. It takes us two weeks. That area then becomes covered, and this activity will be able to be implemented in that area in her district, which might not now be covered.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter, then Councilwoman Miller, and then Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Mr. President. Actually, I don't really so much have 125 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 any questions for Mr. Bonham. I would be interested, though, in a little bit of discussion with any of our City agencies that have responsibilities for enforcement. Are there any City agencies folks here?
Is there a repetitive from L&I here, the Department of Licenses and Inspections? (No response.)
Or Housing or anyone that's in the -- okay. (Deborah McColloch approaches the witness table.)
Please come and identify yourself for the record. This record will show that she volunteered for this. (Laughter.)
Good morning. My name is Deborah McColloch. I'm the Deputy Director at 126 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 the Office of Housing and Community Development.
Thank you, Mr. President. Ms. McColloch, what's just by way of background, that's OHCD's involvement in this program or in the implementation of this?
You have to pull the microphone closer to you. You don't have to lean over. You make us feel so nervous, you're leaning over, almost look uncomfortable. You can get comfortable.
No, I'm sitting with my pal Blaine so I'm not. . . The 1202-A Program currently is carried out by staff at the Redevelopment Authority, as part of the real estate staff at the Redevelopment Authority. So OHCD, through our contract with the Redevelopment Authority, we support that staff.
Okay. And through 127 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 the -- 'cause I thought when we recodified various parts of the code, this now comes under something called the "Property Maintenance Section." Do you have any information with regard to the number of properties that -- with structures on them that have gone through the 1202-A Program in recent years? Or I guess what I'm trying to understand is, what's the difference between this process if it's in wards that are covered by this particular bill versus what happens in the rest of the city where it's not covered?
For the structures. Or what would happen with the inclusion of vacant lots? MS. MCCOLLOCH I think the question of what will happen with the inclusion of the vacant lots anyone's guess in the sense of how much demand is there going to be for this that --
No, I'm talking more about the process, not so much demand. I'm talking about the step-by-step process. What 128 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 would a person do in an area that is covered versus an area that is not covered? Or is the main issue here your right and ability to go onto the lot under agreement with the Department of Licenses and Inspections and at least start work in the prospect of being reimbursed? I mean, is that the main thing here? In terms me of getting the ownership, is there any difference between being involved in this program versus just trying to go through the normal sheriff's sale process.
Well, the difference here would be that if you've entered into an abatement agreement, which is what you would do, that allows you onto the property, and then you'd go ahead and do it, then that property gets entered into the sheriff's sale process. It would be certified for sheriff's sale certified.
It automatically gets entered in. The way it happens now, if you want to have a property certified for sheriff's sale, you have to make that request and so on and so forth. 129 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794
And my experience with the sheriff's sale process, there's always the $800 issue. Someone supposedly has to put up $800 to get a property at a sheriff's sale. Under this program, you're saying that it automatically goes to sheriff's sale; is no one then required to put up the $800?
Right, the individual does -- the abator does not have to put up the $800, which is essentially the difference between being covered and not being covered.
That's just an administrative cost that, I guess, the City budget takes on. I mean, L&I doesn't collect it, so I can't answer that.
Right. I mean, no one -- that's what I'm saying, no cash actually -- in that case, actually, no cash is exchanged.
Right. We're going to do it because we're going after it and we're going to theoretically try to outbid anybody else that's out there, okay. One of the provisions on of the bill, item number 3, talks about the Department issuing notice to the owner. And in this particular case, under this provision, we're talking about vacant lots. And in many instances, at least on our City records, that may be the only address that we have for the owner. It is the lot now, there's no longer a building there. How do we provide notice to that person?
What we do with community groups, because we want them to have permission to use the lot, is to send a certified letter to the address listed in the real estate directory. And if it comes back because it's undeliverable, then 131 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 often, we just encourage groups to go ahead and use it for a while. That may not be the legal way to do it, but other than that, nothing gets done.
All right. But you've tried to provide notice and -- I'm sorry?
It might be necessary to advertise in a newspaper of general circulation when you have the lot as the only known address.
And if we're talking about the abator of the nuisance, one, they take a clear and marketable title, you may want to put that advertising requirement in so that you meet the notice requirement.
Yeah, but I point out that there are two different notice requirements. This note, the notice requirement that we have here isn't a notice that subjects the property owner to termination of his or her property rights. Those notice requirements are done through the whole sheriff's sale process, which is outlined in state law.
Therefore, it 132 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 would not be necessary here? Is that the point you're making?
What the Department has and the Law Department have determined is, in order to be able to hold anybody responsible for the costs that get incurred in abating the nuisance and/or to notify the property owner that a nuisance exists, some notice has to be given of that. And I can tell you, I know from experience, that notices are sent out, there are real estate tax estate bills that have addresses on them, they send out those kinds of notice there. There are postings, there are all kinds of things that are done. But as a practical matter, the bottom line is that with a licensing agreement with the licensing and agreement, a community can be authorized to go onto the lot.
And improve the lot. Because we take the provision in this city 133 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 that we are entitled to recover the costs of abating a public nuisance. That's why we go in and we post notices on people's property, right? L&I notices, demolition notices that's we're going to tear the property down because it's unsafe, etc. And we tear the property down and lien the property and the property owner, if we can get 'em, for the cost of the demolition.
But the point that you make is there's an important distinction between the notice necessary to use and to abate a nuisance versus the notice necessary to transfer ownership.
And for those people who are not familiar with it, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years ago, this Councilmember took the position that the City of Philadelphia ought to be authorized to give people license agreements to go into, occupy, and improve existing but vacant structures. And then if an owner should show up out of the blue, which is really what happens to that family and they will 134 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 tend to come up, they will tend to find themselves when they see the improvements being made or during the sheriff's sale process, that that family that went into that vacant property, improved it, spent money, painted it, put in windows, put in plumbing, put in all kinds of major systems, should be able to be reimbursed before the property owner can get anything. Now, what happens is, in low-income neighborhoods, a owner of a property that's, you know, kind of not really interested in that property maybe except for some speculation purposes, right, that house is not going to fetch enough at sheriff's sale to pay back the family who moved in and abated the public nuisance to give that owner anything. So most of the time, they'll just disappear.
And then that family can have that property that they have improved. Fewer and fewer vacant properties today are eligible for that kind of improvement, although some still are. But it is that basic principle that 135 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 we're trying to apply to vacant properties -- neighborhood vacant lots so that neighborhoods don't have to be straddled with these vacant lots, with no legal capacity to go in and occupy those lots and improve them without risking both legal liability, because they're on somebody's property, and financial loss. So that's really kind of what this is all about.
One last question, Mr. President. The map that was handed out, is this being put forward as an attachment to the bill, or is this just something that kind of exists?
I can answer that. What this is is a map that's calculated to show the existing areas of the City that are covered by the underlying law, which this bill amends.
My only question about that is that my reading of the code indicates that the 4th Ward is not in the program, 136 12/18/98 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILL 980794 although it is listed in the map, although it is not colored in as the areas are. That may just be a typographical area. But I did want to ask you, Mr. President, when you talked about what happened many years ago, if you have any recollection of, other than the initial area, I guess, being in your Councilmatic district, why something like this, I guess, wasn't done more on a citywide basis? I mean --
Obviously, I wasn't here at the time, so I don't know what --
I can answer that question. Councilman, you were probably like maybe in high school. (Laughter.)