COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:00 a.m. - - - Resolution No. 030403 - Authorizing public hearings of the Committee on Public Safety, regarding the proliferation of motorized scooters in the City of Philadelphia. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ, Chair COUNCILMAN FRANK. J. DI CICCO COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED-MILLER COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 P R O C E E D I N G S - - -
Committee of public safety will come to order. We are here to hear testimony on Resolution 030403. The Clerk will please read the title of the Resolution, please. We have present Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown, Councilman Clarke, Councilwoman Miller, Councilman Rick Mariano, Councilman DiCicco. Please read the title of the resolution. COUNCIL CLERK: Resolution Number 030403, authorizing public hearings of the Committee on Public Safety, regarding the proliferation of motorized scooters in the City of Philadelphia.
We're going to play a video to begin with. Cartoons will come later. (Videotape set up and played.).
We are now looking at pictures of the scooters. 3 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
This is Erie Avenue. Fellow is driving with the traffic. You'll see he comes back against the traffic. It's quite dangerous. There's not a lot of protection. Now he comes back. This is Erie Avenue, a very busy street. You'll see it again. They're for sale there (Indicating). They look pretty much the same. Ron, you can put that in. That's at Torresdale Avenue. That's Torresdale Avenue and Worrell. They're being moved to -- on the they're being rode on the same streets that trucks are on. And that's another problem. It's hard to drive and take videos, but here's what we got. Cottage industries all over the City. I'm sure these vendors are unlicensed, too. No licenses, a great majority of them.
Thank you. We'll begin with Mr. Francis Healy, the Police Department, and someone from the Philadelphia Parking Authority. Mr. Healy, please. Good morning, Council. Francis T. 4 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Healy. I'm Special Advisor to Police Commissioner Johnson. Commissioner Johnson has asked me to testify on his behalf at these hearings, based on the work I've done --
-- on legal issues. The mission of the Philadelphia Police Department is obviously to protect lives, property, and to enhance the quality of life throughout Philadelphia. The proliferation of motorized scooters and their illegal and unsafe operation by juveniles, as well as adults, undermines this mission. Therefore, Commissioner Johnson and the Philadelphia Police Department fully appreciate the efforts of Council to address this problem, and the opportunity to speak on this issue. As I have mentioned, the Philadelphia Police Department has identified the illegal and unsafe operation of motorized scooters as a serious threat to public safety, both to 5 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 those who actually use the scooters, and the general public. Also, the constant use of such vehicles improperly on the streets and on sidewalks undermines the quality of live in many neighborhoods throughout the City. They create fear, anxiety, and great trepidation. Accordingly, the Philadelphia Police Department has already begun to take action. Nevertheless, any help that Council can afford by way of additional legislation is welcomed by the Police Department. Please allow me to detail some of the efforts that are currently under way. First, the Police Department, as well as PENNDOT are of the opinion that such motorized scooters are vehicles, as defined by the Pennsylvania Vehicle Code. Accordingly, these vehicles, like all others not specifically exempt must be titled, registered, inspected, insured, and the drivers legally licensed to operate on any highway in the Commonwealth. Additionally, as vehicles, they must 6 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 be operated in a lawful manner. For example, riding on the sidewalk, in the wrong direction, disregarding stop signs or traffic signals, are a violation of the Pennsylvania Vehicle Code, and the drivers can and are issued traffic citations. However, there appears to be one problem in implementing an overall enforcement campaign. Currently it's unclear whether PENNDOT has the capacity to title, register, or to conduct inspections necessary for these vehicles to operate legally. Consequently, out of fairness, I have directed the commanding officers in the Police Department not to issue any citations for the above-mentioned registration type violations. However, I have authorized the issuance of any licensing or hazardous moving citations, such as if the vehicles don't have a driver's license, or they're suspended. Additionally, if the ownership of those scooters stopped is unclear or uncertain, as with any other vehicle investigation in Philadelphia, I have authorized the temporary impoundment until the driver or owner can 7 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 adequately prove ownership. The City intends to work with and urge PENNDOT to create a registration system for these vehicles, however. This is what the Police Department is currently undertaking to address the problem, but we believe more can be done. As vehicles, the Police Department believes these scooters may be subjected to impoundment under the City's Live Stop Program. Currently, the Philadelphia Police Department and the Parking Authority impound vehicles found to be driven by suspended or unlicensed drivers or when a vehicle is found to have a suspended registration or not a registration at all. Since the registration of scooters may be impossible currently, live stopping a vehicle under this basis would be inherently unfair. Nevertheless, until such time that the scooters can be registered, the Police Department believes it may be appropriate to Live Stop those scooters where the operators are 8 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 unlicensed or possess a suspended license. This possible strategy is currently being researched by the Administration, and may or may not yet prove to be feasible.
Nevertheless, the Police Department believes that the underlying basis for the proliferation of these vehicles on our streets lies in the fact that the average law-abiding citizen is completely unaware of the law and the dangers associated with these vehicles. The perception or, rather, misperception is that these scooters are merely toys, not subject to the law or safety requirements. This perception is in direct conflict with reality. These are clearly not toys, but vehicles, with all the inherent dangers, duties and responsibilities. The public needs to know these facts. Accordingly, the police department in furtherance of our mission, is currently working with the Managing Director's Office, as well as the Parking Authority, to develop a press or public service type announcement to educate the 9 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 public. In conclusion, please let me state again that the mission of the Philadelphia Police Department is to protect lives and to enhance the quality of life. It is not our objective or goal to punish, but rather protect both the pedestrians, as well as the drivers. The proliferation of illegal scooters and their illegal use by juveniles and adults undermines this mission. The Police Department, Managing Director's Office and Mayor's Office is fully aware of the dangers of these problems present throughout the City and have already begun to take action. Nevertheless, we appreciate and support any help Council has to assist us in our goals. At this time I'd be happy to answer any questions.
Yes. Mr. Healy, are most of the -- I see that most of these individuals are probably under the age of 20, as I 10 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 see them. You know, I see a lot of young people driving in the neighborhood.
I don't have any clear statistic, anecdotal. They seem to be in the age of late teenager, early adult age on most of the scooters, that I've seen personally.
And what, if anything, has the Police Department up to this point done, in terms of...
Well, what we can do -- And first, there was a debate on whether or not these were actual vehicles, and whether or not we had authority to issue moving violations on them. And once that was clarified, that we -- the Police Department was always of the opinion, but it was supported by PENNDOT and legal counsel as well. What we've begun to do or have done is when officers do see a moving violation by an individual, they are authorized to issue the obvious moving violation: Driving on the sidewalk, going through a red light or a stop sign. They do not currently impound 11 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 routinely the scooters. However, if the owner of the scooter or the driver on the scooter can't prove ownership that this is his scooter, officers have been authorized to take them into the District temporarily, like we would do with any other vehicle, if you don't have proof of ownership. And then either the parent or other types of documentation be brought to prove that it's actually their scooter, and then the scooters are released.
But there's no 14 actual prohibition to the sale and buying of these scooters?
This issue -- Actually, a very similar issue came up in the early '90s with the all-terrain vehicles. Had the same type of problems. They were being used on City streets. And that was addressed through the registration process, through the --
But the terrain 12 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 vehicles are not to -- are prohibited from being used on City streets.
Right. Right. These have not been as such. It's a new animal. No 6 one's thought how to legislate yet. But they're vehicles. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of order, Mr. Chair.
Yeah. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Mr. Healy, for your testimony. Just in your comments to the Chair here, you mentioned something. The Department is not clear yet on the issue of motorized vehicles?
No. I didn't say that, Councilman. I said we are clear. We've always been of the opinion that these are motor vehicles. Okay. What happened was, there's some type of conflict between whether or not PENNDOT was going to be of the same opinion. We believe and we always have. Basically, my opinion has always been these are vehicles. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I understand 13 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 that. So you're saying PENNDOT is not clear?
Well, they are now. It is a motorized vehicle. I mean, it is a motorized vehicle. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What was PENNDOT'S concern?
I can't comment on that. I don't know. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Can anyone comment on that? I mean, it may fall under Section 1501 of the Motor Vehicle Code.
They do. There was debate whether it did or didn't. And basically that's been resolved. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What is the conclusion of that?
Meets the definition of the vehicle, as according to the Vehicle Code. And must be titled, registered, insured. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Subject to all of the laws that pertain to any other motorized vehicle and the driver?
Must be licensed. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Must be 14 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 licensed. So if a Police Officer sees an individual driving one of these, what is the -- what is the criteria for Live Stop? I think I know. But for the record, what is the criteria for Live Stop? Not as it relates to scooters. Motorized vehicles.
Right. As I mentioned, it's operating with a suspended license or no 11 license, no registration or a suspended registration. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Do the Police have to observe a violation before the stop? I think that was a concern when we first started back in the early '90s, where you just couldn't stop someone for the sake of stopping them.
Yes. There has to be an underlying offense for the stop. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So if a Police Officer observes someone, whether they're of age or not, driving -- riding -- driving a scooter the wrong way on a one-way street as an example, that's a reason to stop?
Absolutely. 15 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: When they stop that individual, what is happening now?
What happens now? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Assuming that person is unlicensed.
If he's unlicensed, there's no impoundment procedure. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Okay.
Just as if prior to Live Stop, we didn't impound cars as well. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: If they're under age.
If they're under age and have no license, they're not permitted to continue driving, obviously. They have to either carry it or walk it home or, whatever the case may be. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So we can't confiscate it today?
We can't. We can't confiscate. We don't. We temporarily impound when there's an ownership issue. I mean, that's about the extent of what we can do. We can't take property off people on 16 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 the street, just because they're unlicensed. We can now under Live Stop, but that's a different issue. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What do we need to do to enable Police to be able to confiscate scooters?
Excuse me, Councilman, if I may. If this is those... Those letters dated May 28th, and if this is the operative aspect from PENNDOT, it reads in the last paragraph that for all the foregoing reasons, that is the opinion of the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation that this office that the operation of a motorized scooter on a highway, roadway, or sidewalk in this Commonwealth is currently unlawful and unsafe. A person operating such a vehicle is undoubtedly violating the registration, equipment, inspection and insurance law. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Wouldn't that give you the authority to confiscate the vehicle? First time I'm seeing this.
What we've done is, actually, last week the Parking Authority, 17 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Philadelphia Police Department, myself, and the Managing Director's Office have met to see whether or not we could expand or include the scooters into the Live Stop Program.
But you know this raises other questions. Let's say that you're licensed and you are registered. These scooters in many -- in many urban areas right now are being used for really transportation between offices. And instead of taking your car out of the parking garage, a lot of people not -- In midtown Manhattan I see right now with suit and tie on, these scooters, because it's much easier to maneuver in traffic, along those lines. And this paragraph seems to me to say you can't do that in Philadelphia or the Commonwealth.
Well, not to disagree with Council. What it says is that they can't be currently -- they can't be registered properly or all the registration procedures. If the registration procedures were in place and there was a proper inspection procedure whereas these things can be inspected 18 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 for safety, just as a car or a truck would be, they would be vehicles, and according to my understanding, would be permitted to be operated legally on the streets. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Mr. Chairman, a scooter has a number of different definitions. I mean, I have actually... looking into the possibility of buying a scooter, which is the Vespa type. I mean, that's considered a scooter. But I think the scooters that we're talking about is... There's an example of one here.
Well, but -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That are being driven by young people who are unlicensed, uninsured, unregistered.
I understand that. But if it is -- if it is done by a young person that is obviously not qualified to ride and drive it -- I don't know how you say it, but at this point in other areas and specifically in big cities, these are modes of transportation that are becoming very popular, because it prevents cars -- it prevents people from using their cars and 19 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 actually a very positive development if that happens. It avoids congestion, and so on. So we're not saying that people can not drive a scooter in the City of Philadelphia. They have to obey the rules of the road, though. They have to be going on the same direction, as long as they obey all traffic laws, and so on.
Councilman Ortiz, I think we're missing one important point here. These vehicles do not conform to the safety requirements of a licensed vehicle. They need to have turn signals. They need to have stop brakes. They need to have an array of equipment, like a motorcycle. A motorcycle has stop lights. A motorcycle has head lights. A motorcycle has turn signals. A motor scooter, like you see in Europe has all of these safety DOT required devices, to allow the State of Pennsylvania to license the vehicle. 20 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 There are some of these motor scooters or these devices that are upgraded that do qualify for the registration process that come with a certificate of origin. But as you see it, that's a hazard to have on the highway, with no turn signals, no 8 stop lights. And if anybody is riding down... riding -- UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: They are.
What's the difference between minibikes and go-carts? The obvious difference. But where does a minibike and go-cart fall into this category? It's a variation of the minibike.
It's a variation. As far as we're concerned, it's still motor vehicles.
You can't drive a minibike into the City of Philadelphia except on private property, from what Councilman Rizzo just said.
Not -- Agreeing with Councilman Ortiz on the one point is, if these 21 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 vehicles could be registered, insured, and had the proper safety equipment, yes, they would be legal vehicles. Okay. So, the answer is yes to, actually, both Councilmen. Yes, if these were legal vehicles according to the Pennsylvania rules and regulations under the Vehicle Code, the Police Department would have no objection to them on the roadway.
I'm just saying, because not too long ago, right here in Center City, somebody came with this type of scooter that you just --
You stand on it, and you -- and it moves. And you drive it really with the way your body moves, and so on. And it's being marketed as part of really in urban areas, trying to get rid of the huge use of the automobile, as a thing -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman, I would agree with that. The only way to get around the limit on parking -- You think it's bad in Philadelphia -- South Philadelphia, Europe has a 22 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 much greater problem with cars. And the Vespas -- I refer to the Vespa. That's the typical brand. And everyone has it, but they're licensed. As Councilman Rizzo said, they have turn signals, they have brakes, they're registered. You just don't get a motor scooter because your parents think it's okay for you to have it. This is a toy. I think that's the whole issue as to why Councilman Mariano and I got into this, is because of the complaints, that the majority of these things are being driven by people in a haphazard way, without any regard for the rules of the road and public safety. It's not a question of convenience and neighborhood, unclogging our City streets. If we can all move to this kind of a vehicle, I think we'd all be better off. But we're talking mainly about young people who either they purchase it for themselves or their parents are buying it. They want to get the kid -- just satisfy the kid again, you know, give him what he wants. 23 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 And I have a friend of mine. He told me he's buying one for his grandson, who's ten years old. I said, for what reason? He says, I'm only going to let him go up and down the block we live. On. These things do miles an 9 hour. He's buying one. 10 You stand on it, not -- without a 11 seat. But it's a motorized vehicle. And I think 12 the message out there has to be to the parents: 13 This is not a toy. You are putting your children 14 in harm's way. You're causing -- It's a public 15 safety issue out there. And it's growing in leaps 16 and bounds. 17 And if it were licensed, folks would 18 be obligated to fall under the Motor Vehicle Code 19 and stuff like that, fine. 20 But in most cases -- and I assume most cases they're unlicensed drivers to begin with, notwithstanding the other issues.
I'm saying that that's the way it has to be, but I'm -- You know, the aspect of an adult, you know, demonstrate and 24 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 doing all of the things --
What the Police Department intends to do, number one, education, hopefully, to get across these are vehicles and are dangerous. But also we're going to hopefully work with PENNDOT to see whether or not they can do what needs to be done so people, legitimate people, who want to use these lawfully can. It is not our intention to ban these things. We just want the proper, safe use of them.
That's what we should strive for, I mean, the proper use.
Sergeant Healy, I don't know if you've ever been there. Juniata Park and Frankford. You got to come up there and see how these are used. I mean, the Councilman and this Councilman got the right idea. If we could do that, it would be great. And it may get to the 25 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 point where the state regulates them. But what's going on there now is just underage people, four or five, six of them at a time buzzing around 1, 2, 3 o'clock in the morning. I just can't believe a policeman in the 15th or 24th would see someone at o'clock in the morning, obviously under age, or o'clock in the afternoon, see that young man I saw on Erie Avenue -- I was going really slow. But I'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind to be a policeman and not stop him going the wrong way in traffic, for his own personal safety. And the place, K and Erie that because I requested. They're into what Councilman DiCicco was talking about for lack of better words, investigate percent a brand name but cheaper models, different parts of the world. And when they sold these, you signed a paper saying, I realize that these are not legal on the streets of the City of Philadelphia. They can only be ridden and that -- not that -- That was their liability. And it was -- You know, they paid 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 sales tax, and they been selling them for a couple years. Now they're selling them, like Councilman DiCicco was talking about, which is sort of a variation between a moped and a scooter. But it has turn signals like Rizzo talked about. But the police have to stop these things.
Councilman, we have. What happened is that when it first came to light is basically the Narcotics Strike Force came to me and asked me: What options do we have? And this was possibly as early as last year. And what we said was basically these -- I made the decision these are motor vehicles. This is prior to getting any type of backing from PENNDOT on that issue. I said, issue motor vehicle violations. It doesn't solve the problem. I think the Parking Authority figured that might have been some answers for that, if they're going to be the agency that we use. But Channel 29 did a piece last night with Bruce Gordon that really was an 27 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 education piece, which people don't know, like Councilman DiCicco said, their $295 cost. It's $300 out and he or she stops whining. Because all his or her friends have it. And as an adult, children, as well anyone under 16, driving without a license, that that will be a violation. It's going to be a long, hot summer.
Sergeant, I really appreciate, you know, your testimony. And I appreciate the work your Department does. And I mean that sincerely. But when I hear that, you know, we're going to have to educate people, I think we can't wait. This is a bad situation. My District now extends up to Oxford Circle. And it's all across my District. But for some reason or other, I notice it more at the northern end, in the Kensington, Frankford and Oxford Circle area. For whatever reason, they seem to be much more these types of vehicles up there than in South Philadelphia. I may go back downtown today and find that it's the opposite way, but the people, the residents in these neighborhoods need relief. 28 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Someone is going to be seriously injured and/or killed. It's just a matter of time. (Applause.)
Councilman, maybe -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I don't mean -- I don't mean to put more of a burden on the Department. I certainly don't mean that. But it is -- It's putting all of us in jeopardy. I see it myself. People are coming at me. Thompson and Huntingdon, the other night I was going to a meeting -- not a meeting, a carnival at Mother Devine Grace. And this kid came -- was traveling south on Thompson at the intersection of Huntingdon. And I noticed that there's only a one-way stop sign; am I right, Mr. Finnerty
Yes. Thompson Street is one way north. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Right. And there's only a one-way stop sign.
Right. 29 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And this kid came through it, across Huntingdon. And about 30 seconds before that, a tractor trailer went through that intersection. I mean, I could envision that kid just getting killed. Is it our responsibility? No. I think the responsibility really is with the parents. But unfortunately, some parents don't see it and we have to educate them. And I think the only way to educate them is to get these kids, take the bike, find some place to put it, like we do with Live Stop. Let them come and argue with us as to why that scooter should be given back to their son or daughter. The burden shouldn't be on us.
Councilman, let me clarify. The Police Department has already begun to take action. We're not waiting for -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Have we confiscated any?
In East Division and Narcotics are routinely doing so. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I think it's important. 30 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
What are you doing with them after you confiscate them?
Not our impound yards, but actually a lot of them are in each District. Each District has special yards for temporary impoundment.
The 24th and 25th had an impound lot at the old place. And those things -- I used to watch them because I filled up my gasoline there, right near the Salvation Army on Lehigh -- on Allegheny Avenue.
This is before the proliferation of this, but it was the 31 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 four-wheeler and the three-wheeler driving.
They used to sit there for a while. I know there was a salver somewhere buying them things, and they were ending back up on the streets of the City of Philadelphia.
If we can avoid that here, it would save us a whole extra nightmare.
Councilman Mariano just touched on something that I think maybe on occasion you got to re-energize the patrol officers. I'll tell you why. I think they get so sensitized by what goes on in a community that they work. I was in a particular neighborhood where four of these four-wheelers came down full tilt, and there were police cars parked right on 32 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 the corner. Now, I assumed incorrectly that I would see these police cars pull off and try to apprehend. I mean, I'm talking about doing a wheelie, coming down a major street, four of them side by side. Without exaggeration, they had to be doing 50, 60 miles an hour. And I understand that there are times when police cars are out of service because they're on the job. But I felt as though, as a citizen, that this is the way it is. And the officers just tolerate that kind of conduct because that's the way it is. And it surprised me that there are so many of these four-wheel drives, all-terrain vehicles out there. And these are slow, compared to the souped-up models that I see in some of our neighborhoods. And I think the Commissioner really needs to, whether he involves the Highway Patrol Unit, or some selective enforcement, that they really need to start cracking down on these.
Councilman, we 33 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 had hearings on those four-wheel vehicles a long time ago.
And they were supposed to be impounded and taken off the streets because drug dealers actually were using them to do drug deals in the neighborhoods, and so on.
Yeah. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And the other problem is, even those that aren't using the streets are driving around in recreation centers and they're destroying those recreation centers. So, it's one thing to say, well, you may not be able to apprehend them because they're going to go and, you know, they're going to take off the wrong way on a street and the police are going to have a hard time getting them. But I see them in rec centers just tearing up those fields, which are costing the taxpayers thousands and thousands of dollars. And the people who want to do the 34 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 right thing and go play baseball in the leagues are suffering as a result of that. I just think it's one of those things where we really got to get tough. We got to get tough now. We have to crack down. The media will follow this around. A message has to be out clear. And I think that the distributors, once they stop selling these things, because people are going to say, hey, it doesn't make sense to buy it, that will stop the sale.
Exactly. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I mean, the message has to be really come down hard on these people. And you may take care of some of the drug problems as well as you're doing this. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, actually I want to follow up on some of the earlier questioning and your testimony, with respects to ATVs. And I know we're here today to discuss scooters. But the 35 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 ATVs are the prevalent problem in my particular community. What was exactly the resolution of the earlier discussion?
Well, I can tell you: Because the all-terrain vehicles were destroying at that point Fairmount Park and other parks across the City. And drug dealers were using them as sentries, and being able to scoot among the alleys, and so on. And we had with Timony, and a policy was established under Timony to confiscate at sight, on sight... confiscate on sight all of these vehicles, because they're illegal to be used on the streets of Philadelphia. And for a time we were confiscating a whole lot of them. I don't know what, you know...
They can confiscate. That was the policy. The policy... I remember that at one -- one -- one period of time over a one-week period, you know, they 36 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 confiscated over 150 of them, you know, very easily.
I mean, based on sight or do they have to break a law?
On sight. You don't -- You don't need -- For an all-terrain vehicle, if that terrain vehicle is on the street and a policeman sees that all-terrain vehicle on the street, he can stop it, impound it, and take it away.
Point of information. Councilman, then, what's the difference? I don't see the difference, then. If that policy applies to all-terrain vehicles, they are unlicensed vehicles. They fall on exactly the same category as that vehicle. So you apparently do have something in place that immediately can apply and be applicable to that machine. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: There is a little bit difference. An ATV can be registered currently with the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. So that fits wholly under the 37 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Live Stop program. And we have been -- Once they're stopped, and they check out -- a majority of them are not registered -- the officer can --
If I may -- If I may, the ATV vehicle, even if it's registered or whatever, it is prohibited from being used on the streets of Philadelphia.
And even if you don't violate -- and that was the policy under Timony -- because even if you don't violate, you know, a red light or a stop sign.
Or... If you have that vehicle, even if it's registered and you're driving that vehicle up on 5th Street, 5th and Indiana, that vehicle is going to get confiscated.
We're taking them on a daily basis. I have yards full of them.
Let me make my point. You mentioned, Mr. Finnerty, you mentioned about being registered by the Department of 38 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Environmental Resources. So is a snowmobile. That's for revenue. They register these vehicles. But that registration is not --
The point was just that that can be registered. And that's an additional citation which can be issued, which falls under the Live Stop Program. That can't be registered, so it has to be cited under the different detail of a --
Registering to the Department of Environmental Resources is because of the fact that they're used in the state game lands on snowmobile trails.
That registration is nothing even applicable to riding it on the public highway. 39 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
We can track who owns them, if they're registered. Can't track ownership on this. There's no serial number.
So let's -- You know, so on the all-terrain vehicle, Councilman Clarke, that was a policy established. We held very extensive hearings in Council. And a policy was done and implemented, and quite successfully for quite a period of time. I don't know... Because, you know, things happen cyclically. And I don't know whether the Police Department is still as focused on the all-terrain vehicles as we were at that time. So --
So if a vehicle, ATV, is seen on the street parked and does not have any registration or licensing, that vehicle 40 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 can be confiscated or impounded? Because I think under the new program, a traditional vehicle, if they do not have the adequate registration, they can in fact be towed away.
So an ATV similarly can be taken, even if it's parked, there's no rider or nobody near it, it can be snatched.
Right. You know, if it's on private property, I don't think you can take that.
But if somebody is using it on the street, it doesn't -- he doesn't need to --
I'm not saying 41 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 if it's being used. I'm saying if it's parked on the public street.
That would bring up questions, you know. I think if you're using it --
What I can offer you for the Police Department, with the ATVs, a lot of the Districts that were heavily burdened with them -- Actually, we all know we can't chase them.
So they came up with creative strategies to basically corner them. What I can do is, I can work with you and the Commanding Officers in your area to see if they can come up with any strategies that might be able to help you. We don't want pursuits but we want --
-- where they 42 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 park them all in front of the building --
We had some creative strategies, and it was very successful in certain areas. I'd be happy to work with you to help that out.
All right. And similarly, with respects to the scooters -- And I understand that they can not be registered. But if they are parked on the public street, can they be confiscated on sight or do they have to be in operation?
Quite frankly, we have no basis to impound them, because they are legal -- They are legitimate vehicles. They may not be operated. But if they're parked, they're not being operated.
Right. So that just sitting there by itself, that's a difference with the ATV. The ATV law basically says it cannot be on the streets of Philadelphia. There's nothing similar with regard to motorized vehicles.
Okay. Thank 43 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a follow-up question to the ATV. In parts of my District certainly we have an issue with both the ATVs and the scooters. But I'd also like some help with meeting with the District Captain. What we have in Germantown in particular are groups of maybe six, eight young people riding ATVs together, like last night. I was talking to Councilman Clarke, sitting on my front porch. And we couldn't hear each other because of the ATVs coming by. And then about... I drove out, and probably around three blocks away there were like eight young people, teenagers, together on ATVs. And this goes on all summer, spring through early fall. Somehow over the winter you don't see them out there, maybe because it's cold; I don't know. But people on motorcycles drive those 44 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 year round. But this, it seems to be the choice of young people during warm weather. And someone said to me: Well, you should do something about that. I said: Well, it's already against the law for them to be driving these vehicles through the streets. I really don't know whether and -- Some of the parents -- This one little boy lives around the corner from me has one. And I know his mother. And I know she's not the type of person that would approve. But I truly don't think people know. And particularly also with the scooters. So I'd be interested in knowing just when, you know, the Police Department and the Managing Director's Office is going to start this public education project, because people really need to know that scooters are not a toy, and that you do need a license. And I'm sure they know that -- And I'm not really positive that they want -- that you need a license for ATV. I think people just think they're toys, in a sense. 45 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
So I'd like to help with meeting with the Captain to see what we could do. And I know you can't chase them. I've actually seen a police car --
-- chasing one. He didn't catch the person, and it was really dangerous.
I think what we want -- I think what should be done is go back to the policy of just impounding all-terrain vehicles if you see it being ridden on the streets. And that's -- That came down from the Commissioner, and that should be done once again.
Councilman, rest assured, they do impound as they can. The problem was, a lot of times they're hard to catch. So it does take creative 46 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 strategies to catch them in a safe manner, because the last thing we want is a pursuit, a police car chasing an ATV. It's not going to work. Okay. So basically what we want to do is creative strategies, find areas where -- We'll work with Council to find the areas where they sit and hang. We can create something, corner them, and that way it's an effective use of police manpower, and keeps the public safe which really is the most important thing. I mean, so we'd be happy to work with you specifically in those areas to try to target those individuals.
Thank you. You did mention that there are pilot programs or they're working in certain areas. This is a follow-up to Councilman Clarke's question. In what areas do you have the program working? And what was the factor or factors that make it work better in some areas 47 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 than in others?
Excuse me, but I don't think I mentioned a pilot specifically. But what happens is we -- Areas of the City the problem erupted first. Pretty much in East Division was the first area.
And it was being involved with the drug use. So what happens is the Narcotics Strike Force being at the cusp of that type of police work, we're the first person to contact. Say we need to do something. What can we do? Our actions now are consistent throughout the City. The problem is, different areas of the City may not even ever have seen a scooter. So in those Districts I haven't received any information from the Captain.
Whatever the case may be. But whatever Captains have contacted me, I've given consistent advice: This is what you can and can't do. What we need to do now is be in a 48 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 much broader -- make sure everybody's on the same page within the Police Department as well. But in those areas highly affected in the Councilman's area, we are aggressively trying to get these things in a safe manner.
We may have to come up with creative strategies, like we did with the ATVs.
Thank you for the clarification on that. As you think of strategies and/or create a task force and are thinking of members, you may want to consider members -- some representative from the school boards so you have their perspective and their input, as well as the Black Clergy and entities that are working with young people all the time so that you have some 49 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 collective thinking on how to better assist the work that you and the officers are doing.
-- with the Managing Director's Office. And they were all-encompassing when they get the whole City and other agencies, that are available, PAL. Actually, the clergy wasn't mentioned specifically, but the School District was, that an education type -- At least letting the kids know that --
-- but the kids don't know they can't drive these until they get a 50 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 license and it's properly legal.
And then one other public institution that has a lot of young people come through would be the Philadelphia Free Library and their branches across the City as well.
As another avenue of distributing information. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Anything to add?
Do you have anything to add? UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The only thing we have to add is, in the case of the Parking Authority, we're here to serve in whatever capacity the Administration would want us to serve in this program. 51 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 We've met with the Managing Director and the Police Department. We are in full support of removing these types of vehicles from the street, and we have devised a plan, if they're not claimed, how to dispose of them properly.
Could you share that with us? UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yes. If they're not claimed, if the Administration works them under the Live Stop Program, they would have to be released by Traffic Court by proving ownership, satisfying the citations, as the normal Live Stop vehicle would do. If they are not claimed, we will modify our request to the court. We file a petition for each auction to auction the vehicles. We will not auction these vehicles. We will modify the petition and request that the court order the proper disposal by dismantling these vehicles.
You'll cut them in half with a torch. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: We will cut them in several pieces. The Parking Authority will 52 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 dispose of them properly. We'll cut them in half, and we will also seize the motor on it, so it can't be picked from a metal scrap pile as parts. We would do it that way. We would not auction these vehicles. And by auctioning them, it would be our opinion that we would be putting them back on the street. And the minimum bid, naturally, is $300, and brand new they're only $295, so they wouldn't meet the auction criteria. We would dispose of them by destroying them.
You start doing that, they'll be a lot cheaper real fast. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Peg Hoak, Eleanor Meyer, Kathy Fryckberg. Please, whoever goes first, identify yourself for the record.
Good morning. My name is Kathy Fryckberg, F-r-y-c-k-b-e-r-g.
And I'm here because 53 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 I'm concerned about the children. I am seeing these little tiny, itty-bitty ones running around with these scooters on, going out of Sedgley Avenue, right on Kensington Avenue with no 6 comprehension of anything. They fear nothing with it. They think that they're invincible. And someone needs to do something. Because they're too tiny. I mean, they have no idea what's going on with those things. And they're every bit four foot tall. And that's scary.
Oh, no. No, sir. Well, my son's much older, and he has more sense than that anyway.
Good morning. My name is Eleanor Meyer, M-e-y-e-r. Last year my neighbor around the corner, the son had one of those motorized. And 54 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 he ran over my neighbor's son and injured him pretty bad. And there's about -- I live on a little street. And there's about eight or ten of them that ride up and down the street every night, sometimes as late as 1 o'clock in the morning.
Hi. My name is Peggy Hoak. I'm from East Frankford Civic Association. And, of course, in East Frankford, they're proliferating all over the neighborhood. They ride up and down the street, around the block 1, 2 o'clock in the morning. They have no regard for anybody, any car, any truck. They don't move. You move or you stop. And these are young teenagers. These are not adults. And it's not this kind of scooter. It's a regular scooter with a motor on 55 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 it; that's all. And the noise is atrocious. And I have complaints from all over my Civic Association area of same complaints: Riding, the noise, and all hours of the day and night.
No, I haven't. I'm on the Pedak. But tell you the truth, I haven't heard it during the night. Because when I go to sleep, I go to sleep. But I have all my neighbors, you know, are complaining about it. And so, I'm just, you know -- I think --
Oh, I know that. And a lot of people don't realize that the more police calls you get, you get attention. I've been preaching that for 13 years. If they don't get complaints, they think there's no problem.
People must call 911. 56 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 They might not get there.
Well, I don't think you should call 911 for scooters. I think you call the Captain of the Police Precinct.
Because I think if you -- 911 you should use just for emergencies.
Well, that helps the Police Department. If they have all these calls, then that raises a flag that there's a problem.
Well, 90 percent of the times you're not going to get a car because they're busy doing other things, but it gives the Captain --
But if the Captain -- I think you should have -- And you're from East Frankford Civic Association.
You should have a meeting with the Captain and bring down the Captain and the inspectors, and tell them about 57 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 the scooters.
Oh, they're well aware. Last Pedak meeting, that's all everybody talked about. And this is from all over, in the 15th District. That's the first thing that was brought up. And there's not much they can do yet.
Well, you just heard they can. They can stop them, and they can take the scooter away.
I mean, that gives us some consolation that some of this is going to stop. They also use it for drug-running, too. Please.
Thank you. Millie Cappetti, Jim Robb, Betty Huntley and Dottie Quarterman. Please identify yourself for the 58 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 record.
Millie Cappetti, C-a-p-p-e-t-t-i. I am a crossing guard. I am also Vice President of Juniata Civic Association. I'm also a parent. On my post when I'm there, I have them coming by. They're running on the pavements, knocking over the school children. They pay no 10 regards for any pedestrians on the street. I have had four accidents on that corner, minor fender-benders, from them running the red light, not paying attention, doing what they wanted to do. Even on Erie Ave. I'm at Erie. And they come up and down Erie Ave. like it's nothing, running the lights. Don't care. I've talked to the Captain on numerous occasions to do something about it. I'm constantly told that they're not allowed to touch them. They're not considered motor vehicles, this, that. Now today --
The Captain says 59 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 they're not allowed to touch them. They're not considered motor vehicles.
Exactly. And when I go home, I plan on calling Captain Mackus to make him aware of that.
Also, with the mopeds and stuff like that, we have that problem going on up in the neighborhood. And I've complained to the Captain on numerous times. And they told us that there's nothing they can really do about that either, if they can't catch them. But it's getting worse. I give them the times, where the kids are, especially in the school yards. After school when the kids are coming out they'll be riding them through the school yards. And still nothing. They're saying it's too busy. They can't get to them places, blah, blah, blah. But it's getting worse. We have already had one person that was killed. 60 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
She was ran over by a truck and died on one of the scooters. That's the first one in our area so far. But God knows how many is going to go on.
Good morning. My name is Dottie Quarterman. I am a citizen of Philadelphia, also as well as Legislative Aide to Representative John Taylor. As a citizen and as a representative to Representative Taylor, we have had and I have had numerous complaints about scooters. My personal opinion as a citizen is, they should be immediately confiscated. They are running -- Yesterday, for example, I was coming down my mother's street which is in Juniata Park, on Nielson Street right down the street from McCauley Playground. I go -- usually come down the street 15 miles an hour. It's a very active street, many children on the street. This boy came out from the sidewalk. 61 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 I almost hit him. Now, I was going miles an hour. Had I been flying down the street, I would have killed him. He was all of 11 years old. What's happening with these scooters is, number one, again, they don't have turn signals. No one's wearing helmets. And they're driving them like idiots. They are up on the sidewalks. They're in the rec centers. I can say that I was at one softball game at Juniata Park where I did see two 24th Police District officers confiscate two scooters off kids. But that was the only time I did see that. It seems to be getting worse day by day. We have kids who now are taking lawn mower motors and attaching them to the scooters that used to pedal with your feet. And they're selling them for, like, 45 bucks. So now you have not only the scooters that you can buy for $295, but one you can buy out of somebody's back garage for $45. They're on a sidewalk. They're threatening seniors. They're threatening just communities in general. 62 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 I believe that the police really probably are a little desensitized to the issue itself. But I believe that they should be, when they see them -- because they are not legal -- they should be confiscated immediately, period; end of story. Someone -- There is going to be a serious disaster with these scooters. It frightens the death out of me when I see these kids, because most of these kids on the scooters are kids from the age of 9 to maybe 18, because most of them by then are driving. These are young kids. None of them have helmets. They're hanging off them. They're going against traffic. They're up on sidewalks. They're just completely, you know, no regard, no 18 common courtesy, no regard for any law. I don't know that they know that there's any law. As Councilman Reynolds Brown had said, maybe you could go through the Black Clergy. I don't know if that's your answer. I think your best, I guess, action for this, in order to show kids how dangerous it is, and parents, is to go through the School 63 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 District, to go through the rec centers.
And chop them in half. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We can't wait a whole summer. And I appreciate your being here today. The neighborhoods are literally under siege right now.
You can't -- If You confiscate them, a parent wasted $300. That's education.
It's education. It certainly is. 64 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
Hello. My name is Betty Huntley, a Committeewoman, 33rd Ward, 9th Division. I have two schools on each of my corners, L and Huntingdon Park and L and Lycoming. And the problem I have in my Division is, I have approximately 2500 kids that walk in the morning and in the afternoon. These scooters, when the kids getting from high school around o'clock, o'clock, they have a tendency of coming out with these scooters. And at o'clock when the children is released, between 2:30 and 3 o'clock, they are speeding through the neighborhoods, going through the school yards, having disregard of the children, hitting crossing guards or almost hitting crossing guards. It have became a problem where I'm out the door screaming all the time, asking them be careful. I think some law need to be made 65 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 where, when there's school hours -- Something need to be done because, I mean, we have had so many children has almost have got hit, you know, trying to cross the street by the crossing guard.
The law is there. It is illegal to do this. It is illegal to ride the all-terrain vehicles. All that has to happen is, the police have to implement this. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman, question for the lady. Are any of these people who are operating these vehicles, are they coming from school with that or just that, as you're saying, after school hours?
After they get -- The high school gets out. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: They're not taking them to and from school.
No, not as far as I know. I mean, anything possible. They driving cars to school now. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: They're young people. I was young once a long time ago. They want to look cool. It's the in thing to do. We 66 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 all understand. We all went through this. But, you know, even when I was a kid driving a bike, you know, your parents always said: Stay out of the street. Be careful when you get to an intersection. It's just a different situation now, because now motorized vehicles, these things are much more dangerous than bicycles because you can continually go at a certain rate of speed. The bicycle, you pedal, you get a little tired; you slow down. This, you know, it's a car. It's a vehicle. And so, I think the Chairman is right. And we all said this earlier. We just need a zero tolerance. Sometimes we abuse that, that saying, that phrase. But we need to get the message out. It's too late for education. Parents are irresponsible. They need to be held accountable. And the only way you hold them accountable is by letting them waste their money, if in fact they bought it in the first place. But they're so inexpensive, if a kid has a part-time job, he's going to be able to buy 67 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 one on his own. So somebody -- It's got to be taken off the street. I would suggest to the Chair that as a result of these hearings, in addition to the Resolutions that Councilman Mariano and I introduced -- Mine called for the Police Department to get active in this -- that we, you as the Chair, write a letter to the Police Commissioner, spelling out what took place here and asking that they make full enforcement. This could be another part of Operation Safe Streets. I mean, Operation Safe Streets doesn't only have to deal with drugs. It's got to deal with nuisance and other quality of life issues. And this is a dangerous situation. It's out of control.
We will do that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I want to thank all of you for coming.
I agree with my colleagues and to call for strong enforcement, but I'd also want to make sure that people, number 68 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 one, know that these are not toys, and that people -- that the City gives people the education necessary so they will fully understand, particularly parents of minors, will fully understand that those children are breaking the law, and they won't go out and buy those things. But I agree that we do need strong enforcement, even to the point that at some point maybe parents should be fined, once they know. But I just want to make sure that they do know, that purchasing these and letting minor children drive them, they're breaking the law. And I do have sense enough to know that there are many teenagers that will go out and buy something without their parents' consent. I'm the mother of a teenager. However, I'd at least want to know. I want to make sure people know. So, I know that the Police Department did testify about the public education that they're developing right now, and over with the Managing Director. And I'd like to see that put in force, but I'd also like to see stronger enforcement also. Thank you. 69 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
Thank you. Are there any other individuals to testify? Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Jack Laurilliard from the Juniata Park Older Adult Center. My last name, L-a-u-r-i-l-l-i-a-r-d. Laurilliard. Rhymes with billiard.
I'm a little bit disappointed. It seems... What can I say that hasn't already been said? You know what you have to do. When are we going to do it? What do you have to do to put into effect everything that was talked about today? Make it illegal to sell these. Go to the -- And do your confiscation and destroy them. I don't know who made that suggestion. Destroy them.
That they're going to do. We can't prohibit selling them.
Why not? Don't you have to have a license to sell handguns? Isn't this a dangerous thing? 70 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
I wish we could prohibit selling handguns. You can't prohibit selling handguns. Handguns get sold. Handguns get sold in this City. I hope I wish we could prohibit selling guns.
My question is, when are all these things going to go into effect? Somebody said we're going to send a letter to the -- Why do we have to wait for a letter? Can't we call the Commissioner up? Sit down. This is what we want you to do. And then tomorrow he'll do it.
His representative was here. His representative said that they're implementing this immediately.
Thank you very much. I didn't mean any disrespect to any Council Members.
Hi. My name's Chris Lang. I'm the Committee person from the 33rd Ward, 11th Division. And I just need to relate to something I saw just to further on how dangerous 71 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 these are. A scooter comes down a one-way street the wrong way, pulls out onto a two-way street, a car swerves to avoid the scooter. Another car coming the other way swerves to avoid this car. And here is a group of young children walking to the Seven-11. And thank God nobody was killed. It was one of those hold-your-breath moments. You're like: Oh, my God, all caused by this one scooter that's flying down the street. And as far as if these laws are out there, and they're already in effect, I think one of our most... good weapons that we can use is our local media, such as the Juniata News, Aldia, these small papers that you know that everybody reads their own little neighborhood newspapers faithfully. And I would just like you to consider that. I don't know if Council has a repertoire with these people that they can send out notices to these small papers and get it printed up as a community service. 72 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403
I think that should be the responsibility of the neighborhood people, to get in touch with all of these, you know, media and newspapers. Yes, sir.
Yes. My name is Jesus Soto. I am representing the 33rd Ward. I'm also a child care center director. And many occasions we have our children coming out. I deal with zero to five year-olds. And this is in the Norris Square Community, which is on the lower end of Mariano's District. And I can count to every day, almost: Kids on the pavement, off the pavement, flying from one corner. And I'm right there on the corner of Mascher and Norris where there's no 19 stop sign. And you can just see an accident waiting to happen. And I'm glad that there is law out there. However, I was one of those people that called the cops, the police, and stood in front of my stoop, and stood in front of I Street, 73 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 because I live at I and Juniata. And I said: No, you're not going to do this at o'clock at night. Now I waited and 5 waited. And called again. And then I called 6 again. I called three times that evening for a 7 vehicle to come by. 8 Lo and behold, an hour later they 9 came by, but the children decided it was time to 10 go to bed at 12:30. But I was one of those 11 residents that just stood on I Street and said: No, no, no. 13 Now, we can have these laws implemented. We can have these nice juicy things that people say. But it has to go to the rank and file. It has to get to the bottom. It has to get to the people that are actually going to do the work. The morale... I don't know what the morale is, but... I don't know. At this point you can have a million laws, but if you don't implement them, then they're useless.
That's right. I suggest you talk to the Captain. Thank you very much. Thank you. 74 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Anybody else? Yes, ma'am.
Good morning. My name is Kate Clark, and I am a resident of the Juniata Park Section of the City of Philadelphia. I have one question. That is, can we find the places that are actually selling these and confiscate them from them?
You can get the illegal places that don't have licenses on the corner, but if they're a business...
Such as the one that's selling them on the 44 and 4500 block of Castor Avenue.
If they're selling them without a license, we can, yeah. Go ahead.
I would wonder, though, if... You know, my 12 year-old 75 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 nephew can't go and buy a car. I don't think any car auto dealer would sell him a car. So I'm wondering if when you go to buy one of these whether I.D. is required so they won't be selling this to a minor. Is that where you're trying to go with that?
I'm trying to go with that. I'm trying to go with something in that respect, something.
Well, for a minor that would be different. I don't think a minor can buy a motorized vehicle.
No, I don't think so. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: If he's got 300 bucks, he's going to sell it to him.
They can buy it from the guy that -- (Many people began speaking simultaneously, not reportable.)
I don't think a minor can buy a motorized vehicle in this City or the Commonwealth. 76 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 Thank you.
So that means there's some adult purchasing, and that's where the fines are coming.
How you doing? My name is Candido Silva. I'm one of the Democratic Ward Leaders of the 33rd Ward. And I think the important thing is educating. We're missing one factor. I think we should start at the schools. I think we should start at the recreational center. I think picking up the vehicles, and chopping them up, and burning them, and tearing them apart, and confiscating them is not the issue. We have people in our community that don't understand the law or the system. So we need to take part in educating. I think the easiest way and less [sic] cost effective is starting with the school districts setting first, as well as the recreational center. And what better time to start now with the recreational centers, when you have kids 77 6/11/03 - Resolution 030403 going to recreational center camps within the City system. And this is the best time. If you just confiscate these motor vehicles or these scooters, you're not only depriving somebody from knowledge, but if you taking the necessary steps by step one, step two, step three, and so on, then you have the parents not coming back being rebellious of you confiscating these scooters from the children, where they say: Oh, we'll pay the money just to keep you quiet because somebody else's kid has it? No. I think we should start at -- plant the seed within the schools and the recreational centers, and then we can move on, and then we can do the confiscating. Thank you.
This Committee of Public Safety stands in recess until the call of the chair. (Hearing concluded at 12:18 p.m.) 78 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the public hearing of The Philadelphia City Council, taken on June 11, 2003, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. _____________________________ DAVID A. DEIK, RPR and Commissioner of Deeds (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)