And in my case, I'm a big guy. I can handle it. But we are --
-- discriminated against minority in Philadelphia called landlords. And not all of us are big guys. Some of us are women. Some of us are older. And we --
Thank you for your comment. Thank you for your comment --
-- are being physically threatened in these cases. You all are --
Thank you for your comment today. Thank you for your comment today --
And, O'Rourke, you're oppressive. You're just fools making rules.
Thank you for your comment today. Thank you for your comment. We're going to move on to the next commenter.
That's what you are. And nobody will ever take 28,000 out of my pocket again. Nobody --
Thank you for your comment today. We're going to move on. You're a very scary man. Thank you for your comment today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Thank you. Good morning, Chair -- good afternoon, Chair Gauthier, Vice- Chair Landau. Thank you for providing time for our testimony this morning. My name is Joy Ahn. I'm a Nurse Advocacy Manager at the National Nurse Led Care Consortium, or NCC, an affiliate of PHMC. At NCC, our local programming includes three maternal child home visiting programs serving low-income families. My role is to bridge the voices of our clients, nurses and home visitors with the people who have the power to change policy. I'm here today to testify regarding Bill 250329. As nurses, one of the first things we are taught is to look at our patients and then look around us. As home visitors, we visit families in their homes, sit with them, talk with them, and experience a bit of their home with them. Many of the beautiful families who we have the privilege of getting to know have the misfortune of living in hazardous and unhealthy housing conditions. There is a parasite that some mice communities get that affects their brain such that they have no fear. They do not run when people walk toward them. My pregnant client and I had to kick them away from our feet while discussing labor and delivery. Some rental units have holes in the stairs that one must carefully navigate in order to not fall through. I have seen exposed electrical wires that spark sometimes in the bathroom. A colleague recently told me that her client was afraid to report a toilet that was not working properly and had to troubleshoot in order to relieve herself. Our clients had this in common, landlords who are unwilling or unable to make necessary repairs and reluctance to call L&I for fear that their landlords would retaliate and they would end up without a home or worse, that DHS would somehow be called into the situation. Structural and electrical hazards, lead paint, black mold and pest infestations make a home dangerous or unhealthy to live in. They also pose a threat to the emotional and mental well-being of a family. How does a parent keep their crawling or toddling child safe from exposed wires near the floor or random dead roaches or lead dust? And it's just embarrassing to live in a home with raccoons making a latrine over the bedroom ceiling and feeling the need to explain the smell to guests because the landlord just can't be bothered. It may be difficult to connect the dots to understand how this all affects public health and why a nurse is here talking to you. I can discuss more with you later. But I'm sure if we think about it, we can imagine how lack of a working toilet or exposed electrical wires or pest infestations negatively affects the health of families and their neighbors. But proactive L&I inspections can be helpful for the community and for the landlords as well -- I'm wrapping up. Thank you. Removing blight, identifying --
Please take the next 20 seconds or so and wrap your comment.
Will do. Okay. Thank you. Proactive L&I inspections can protect tenants from illness and death and protect landlords from liability and potential lawsuits. I'm happy to talk more. Thank you. Three minutes is not enough time.
Thank you for being here today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
My name is Reverend Gregory Holston. I'm the Executive Director of Just Nation and just so glad to be here today. I had the choice of being in Washington, D.C., which I believe today is one of the funerals for Reverend Jesse Jackson, or to be here and stand with people fighting for housing, deeply affordable housing, to stand with this Councilmember, this Reverend/politician who has pushed for this piece of legislation. And maybe in this way, I honor Reverend Jesse Jackson more for staying here than going down there. The scripture reminds us, Woe to him who builds his house by unrighteousness and his upper rooms by injustice. That's a scripture that is not just ancient prophecy. It's a warning for our time. Because today in Philadelphia, too many families are living in homes that are not safe, not healthy and not worthy of the dignity every, every human being deserves. Children are sleeping in mold-infested bedrooms. Seniors are sitting in homes without reliable heat. Families are dealing with pests, leaky ceilings, unsafe wiring and crumbling walls. And I would submit to you that's more important than how much money you may lost. When people lose their legs because of poison in their homes, that is more important than any dollar figure you will lose. Many of them are afraid to say anything. Why? Because Philadelphia has a severe shortage of deeply affordable housing. Our city is short more than 60,000 units for families who make the least in our city. That shortage changes the balance of power. When you have 10 families competing for one deeply affordable apartment, tenants know they have nowhere else to go. And when tenants have nowhere else to go, landlords know complaints can be ignored. Scarcity shifts power. In that environment, silence becomes survival. Families stay quiet because the alternative could be eviction or homelessness. That is why Safe Healthy Homes legislation is so important. When the free market fails, when market failure happens, government must step in. That's the role of doing government. They are doing their job. They're stepping in because the system is failing, failed so many people in this room and it's their job to write legislation to change that. Is it going to be perfect? No. Are they going to try again? Yes. Are they going to keep trying? Yes. Does it deal with every situation? No. But still this is the job of government. And let's stand with these legislators. Instead of berating them, let's stand with them to help work together until we get something that's great for everybody, even everybody in this room.
Rev, if I can ask you to take seconds or so and wrap.
So 4 that's what we're doing here today. 5 And so, I thank you. I thank my 6 friend for being everything that I 7 hoped you would be. I am so proud 8 of you. 9 (Applause.) 10
11 Thank you so much for your comment. 12 Please state your name 13 for the record and proceed with 14 your comment. 15
Hi. I'm 16 Kim Neubauer and I appreciate that 17 you have stayed this long to listen 18 to the community. So my husband 19 and I own four rental properties 20 and we're the parents of a son, who's also a renter in Philadelphia. We keep our rents way below market rate because we want our tenants to be happy and to stay. And we've been very lucky except for once. And that particular problematic tenant almost put us completely out of business. She played the system and succeeded to stay in our property for over a year without paying a penny, not for water, not for rent, not for nothing. In any other context, using services that are rendered without paying for them would be considered stealing. But in this case, her bad behavior had the blessings of city ordinances and other protections and she stayed legally rent-free for over a year. The proposed ordinances give a message to tenants -- this is what I'm most concerned about -- that they don't have to be accountable even for behavior that harms other people or harms properties. And in both cases, that applies to us. I had to pay the tenants $1,500 water bill. It took me a year to save up to be able to pay that because I was the one that was held accountable, not the tenant. I was sent to collections. My credit was ruined when I've never missed a bill in my entire life. We had no choice but to continue to offer safe, affordable housing not only to this problematic tenant, but to her whole extended family, none of whom were on the lease. When they reported a flood late in the evening, we raced to the property. We called an emergency plumber. We stopped the flood before it did too much damage. We later learned that the flood was due to their moving the refrigerator multiple times because they had a dog in a no-pet property that was peeing on the floor. And they lied to us about that, but we figured it out. They also stole things from us like the lawn mower and a weed whacker and things that we generously provided for them without even asking them to pay. So I'm just wondering if this kind of damage, flood damage, floor damage or any of the other damage that they created, plus their stealing, is this considered good cause? The new ordinances, even refund rent if the renter is resourceful enough to catch, gotcha, the landlord on a missing form -- I got seconds left? 19
We got caught up in that when we couldn't renew our license for months even though we hadn't done anything. It was a system error that the system couldn't even figure it out for months. The last thing I want to say is that if the city wants to offer affordable, safe housing, responsible, responsive landlords need to be able to carefully screen tenants and hold accountable those who harm our business.
If these new ordinances pass, which I believe they did before the public comment, my husband and I have already been talking about it. We are seriously considering getting out of business in the City of Philadelphia. (Applause.)
Thank you for your comment. I do think that Vice-Chair Landau wanted to respond to some of the things you mentioned.
Thank you. You asked a question of would those tenant activities rise to the level of good cause, and they absolutely would. You would be able to terminate your lease based on that type of bad behavior of the tenant. And you do have -- there are avenues in which you can enforce your rights that include going to court and getting a judgment against somebody --
I know also that Member O'Rourke is willing to continue talking about these issues, but we thank you for being here today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Carlos C. Boothe, Sr. I am one of the Philadelphia residents, but a resident also of the Philadelphia Restoration Project. I will not bore you with any horrible horror stories. We've heard enough of those so I will not add to that. We all know what's going on. But the reason why I'm here, to lend support to many of your organizations, and One PA in particular. (Applause.)
You're quite welcome now. It's a shame that we have to be here in court to address issues of landlords. I mean, it's not all, and all tenants aren't bad, but why do we have to come to court when you know what's supposed to be done. You rent somebody a property. You take care of that property. You rent a property. You pay the owner. It's really that simple, but we take simplicity and turn it into the complex. There's something wrong with society. It's inherent in our DNA as a society, but we need to do better. We are facing a housing safety crisis in Philadelphia. Renters across our city are living in unhealthy and life-threatening conditions. Many landlords and developers are aware of this but they turn a blind eye to the problems of their properties. They send a maintenance person out to look at the problems and satisfy their needs of saying they responded. Not good enough. Not all, but many. If this offends you, you're living wrong. Today we're asking the City of Philadelphia to vote on the measures to protect the rights of renters, the right to safety, protection from retaliation, the right to repairs, proactive inspections and to enforce the law when landlords violate the housing codes and put tenants at risk. Why are people getting upset over proactive looking at what's going on? You would take your car to the shop when it's time for inspection. You're not running around on four bald tires and think you're going to run through the city. Stop this nonsense, people. Stand up for what you know is right. Stand up for what you know is right. Come on. Act like grown adults that we're supposed to be. Act like children of God when we come into these situations. Stop the nonsense. Stop looking at profits and not people. Now, here's what I look at now. Philadelphia, people, we need effective response. We need to have problems resolved and not just looked at. And we need to have resolutions that enforce the rights of the tenants. We're not just here to have you collect money from us. We're here to live. Many of us, like myself, we are retired. We done paid our dues. In conclusion -- I feel like I should be on a farm. I hear the cowbell. Now, I'm going to run to the stable. Now, because landlords do what is allowed doesn't mean that you're doing what is right. Okay. So get your acts together, those who are doing wrong and you know what you are doing.
I would like to say thank you to everyone who gave me this opportunity to come out. And thank you City Council for listening to me. And I hope I have the opportunity to come back and finish what I didn't get to say. Thank you everybody. God bless and have a good day.
Thank you for your comment and for all of your advocacy and sharing your experience. Thank you so much. Will the Clerk please call the next few public commenters.
Tony Rawlings, Amanda Gleason Matt, Seneca Grant, Edward Golding, Abraham Pardo. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
My name is Amanda Gleason Mack. I am a real estate broker and property manager for small landlords. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Gauthier, members of the committee who are still here of the Housing, Neighborhood Development and Homelessness. I am here to testify in opposition of Bill Nos. 250329 and 250300. To be clear, I am not opposed to a well-thought-out inspection rule. I would be very happy to see something like that, but I do not see that in these bills. The impact of these bills on small landlords is best illustrated by my client Ms. Mickey. Ms. Mickey is not a corporation. She is a small landlord. She is not a real estate investor. She was a mother who raised her children in a home. And then when the children grew up, she decided not to sell it. She decided, let me find a tenant and keep that family home. Wanting to do things correctly, you hired a property management company who she thought was reputable. She thought that they were going to handle things properly. They did not. The company failed to obtain a rental license on her behalf and failed to tell her she needed to do one herself. When the tenants fell behind in rent, she thought she was going to do the right thing and file the eviction diversion program. She found out for the first time that she lacked a license and that she needed one. She then hired me to help her bring the property into compliance. We uncovered additional requirements she was not aware of, including the lead safe certificate, the certificate of rental suitability as well as taxes she didn't know she owed. It took over a year for Ms. Mickey to bring the property into compliance legally. We're talking taxes and paperwork. The home was safe. During this time, she collected no rent, which, of course, is required by law. Yet the tenant remained in the home. The tenant remained using the water, which Ms. Mickey had to continue to pay, as well as her taxes on the real estate taxes. Ultimately, she made the painful decision to sell the home. Rental license and suitability certificate in hand, she filed for eviction. The tenant's attorney then threatened legal action over rent collected years earlier when she didn't meet the compliance of the rental license. Knowing this and under that pressure, she agreed to an extended move-out timeline with no rental payment. To date, the tenants still live in the property, until Saturday hopefully. After waiting two years, she is still waiting. She has no 3 rent and she has to continue to take care of this property. This is the reality for many small landlords. These bills do not educate them. These bills do not help them to achieve the compliance that is already required. They do not distinguish between corporations and individuals. Instead they add more penalties and more barriers for small landlords like Ms. Mickey, who often don't even know the rules until they meet the right person. We're not talking about large developers. We're not talking about corporations. We're talking about individuals who own one or two homes, follow the rules and think they're doing what's right by hiring professionals. Before adding new requirements, we must ensure small landlords understand and can realistically comply with the laws that are already in place. These bills would have bankrupted Ms. Mickey because her tenant could have sued her for that background. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for being here and for sharing your experience. And let's keep talking. I do know that the city is willing to put resources into education and making sure that landlords understand these bills, but we should keep talking about all of it and we appreciate you being here today.
Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good afternoon. My name is Seneca Grant. Thank you, Madam Chair, Madam Vice-Chair. And thank you, Mr. O'Rourke. On behalf of One PA United and everyone, all these tenants here, we are eternally grateful for your support and sponsorship of Safe Healthy Homes. And without you, we probably couldn't have been here today. So we thank you for that, sir. To members of committee, I've been living in Philadelphia, born and raised my entire life and pretty much from everywhere, from Bartram Village to Germantown North Village, they've always been in some kind of condition of squalor in one way or the other, from no 21 working stove to flying cockroaches to leaks. It's even now where I'm living in West Oak Lane, and I'm in my third winter where there's no 2 heat. I'm one of the examples of a good tenant, a good renter. Not only is my rent always paid on time, it's often early. And I want to thank you guys for arming myself and the rest of us here today with the protections that we definitely require and arming us with the tools that we need to be able to fight these corporate landlords. And that's a (inaudible) against us, because I'd rather not pay my rent this month because I'm cold. It's been a very cold winter, you know. So I would like to know that I can -- even though I've always been on time with rent, that I can put my money in escrow and not to have to worry about retaliation. So I want to thank you for that. To my fellow members of One PA Renters United today, victory belongs to us. In conclusion, to these corporate lobbyists and greedy slumlords who should be ashamed of themselves and show up here today in opposition to what we're trying to get done, you should be ashamed of yourselves. But today you're mad because victory belongs to us. Thank you, Madam Chair. (Applause.)
Thank you for your comment. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Antonio Rawlings. Good afternoon, Councilmembers. My name is Antonio Rawlings. In 2018, I moved into my aunt's house in Nicetown from a nursing home after facing a long and hard battle with cellulitis. My aunt was renting from a small landlord who would not make repairs. While staying there, I experienced three times where squirrels came into the house. One time I woke up to them licking my foot. My aunt called the landlord and she said that they don't do the wild. She called Animal Control. They told her that it will cost 250 for them to come in, trap it and take it out. We could not afford it. In 2022, I moved into an apartment complex in Frankford called Avondale, owned by Odin Properties. I experienced broken elevators, multiple ceiling leaks, mold, which was in the form of mushrooms, fire alarms that constantly went off. Now, in 2026 I'm back with my aunt and since being back, I experienced something eating through the wall, making noises so loud I could not sleep. My aunt and I did not have any heat in part of our house during the winter back in 2024 and 2025. Thanks to Councilmember Cindy Bass, my aunt's landlord is making sure she does a thorough investigation into what is running amok in the ceilings and in the walls. But what about renters who are afraid to speak out or are not able to get in touch with their Councilmember. We need the Safe Healthy Homes Act to protect us. Thank you for your time. (Applause.)
Thank you so much for your comment today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Edward Golden. Pleased to meet both of you again. So I do have something scripted. Try to get through it as quickly as possible. And the protocol to distinguish members of City Council, tenants and landlords, my name is Edward Golden. I'm a property manager that resides in West Philadelphia. I don't live in California. My office, two blocks away from my house. My wife and I own an investment property that we will ultimately pass along to our children. I currently manage 150 units for local owners and some owners across the country. Our company has seven values that we adhere to, the most important being collective value. So we can't run a property management company, we cannot run an investment without tenants, contractors, owners and the City of Philadelphia. Now, here's where I go offscript a little bit. After hearing everything, it kind of surprises me that there are companies that have violations to the extent that we do -- they do. We spend a majority of our time in two areas, maintenance and compliance, because we don't want any of our clients to fall into some of the situations that I've heard today where people are -- even though we have to, which is a professional tenant, so we have to take a lot of time. I've talked to your Chiefs of Staff, all that. So what I think I see here, what I think I hear at this hearing, how about that, is that there's two rental communities. There's a rental community of corporate landlords and then there's a rental community of people like me and the people that I serve. So I think that, hear me out, why not zero in on us. Listen to us. We'll tell you what we do. We'll tell you the fact that during the pandemic our owner probably lost an aggregate of about $250,000. We're passed that now. It's cool. But we don't want that to happen again, so it needs to be avoided. And here's the reason why: There's a couple buzzwords that go around the country now. It's called affordable housing and generational wealth. If we don't begin to understand what this does, works to support that or not, we're going to lose affordable housing and generational wealth. Can I talk to y'all guys?
Thank you so much for your testimony. Appreciate you very much. And can the Clerk call the next -- (Applause.)
Good afternoon. You guys know me. I'm Abraham Reyes Pardo, VP of Housing and Diversion Services at the Urban League of Greater Philadelphia. The Urban League is very involved with the eviction diversion program, but we also provide homebuyers education and counseling. Now, some people have left. But as I was looking around the room earlier, I saw many familiar faces, many partners and organizations we work with every day to help families move closer to homeownership. Because of that work, I know they understand just how critical access to safe, affordable housing is for the people we serve and for the strength of our communities. I want to thank you for convening these important conversations. They're necessary and I'm confident they can lead to thoughtful, comprehensive solutions. In an ideal world, everyone will simply do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, but we do not live in an ideal world. That is why clear, standards, strong guidance and consistent oversight from the City of Philadelphia are essential. Without clarity and accountability, regulations can be misinterpreted or ignored, and families are the ones who bear the consequences. Some of the complicated living conditions we have heard about today are in many cases preventable. When residents are able to remain in stable, healthy housing, they are better able to succeed in school, support local businesses and participate fully in civic life. The Safe Healthy Homes Act represents an important step toward housing fairness and reflects Philadelphia's commitment to equity, opportunity and dignity for our residents. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you very much for your testimony. Can the Clerk call the next list of names for public comment.
Mark Roesch, Greg Wertman, Seth Floyd, Ethan Kalathil, Jim Kenekelen. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank you all very much. Can you state your name and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Councilmembers. My name is Dr. Mark Roesch. I'm both a tenant and a small landlord in Philadelphia. And when there's a problem at one of my seven properties, I go there the same day, be it day or be it night. My units are better than average. My average rent is $1,174 for a three- bedroom. I maintain all required rental -- I maintain all houses. And of course, I have rental licenses, lead paint CRS. Of course, no questions. If a tenant has a serious problem, I go there myself. I know my tenants. However, I'm concerned that this legislation in its current form may have a couple of results that we all don't want and that harm the tenants the most. That's why I am here. Ten years ago, before I took care of my small children because of a family issue, I worked briefly in private equity. I know how those people think with their spreadsheets, with their profit thinking and I know how they value risks. And that perspective makes me concerned about what's proposed here today. The goal of the bill is clearly good, to remove bad landlords and drive them out of the city, drive them out of business. And I agree housing is essential for everyone. Good policy punishes the bad landlords and drives them out of business. But at the same time, good policy protects the good landlords, especially the small landlords, especially local owners who know their tenants, maintain their home and pay the property taxes in the city. Today small landlords are already scared of Philadelphia. They don't want to invest here. They'd rather go out in other counties or they give their savings to bank or Charles Swab or Fidelity. That's a problem. That void of those people leaving, and many did leave, is not filled by other small landlords. That's filled by big Wall Street people. And the legislation on the table in the big picture worsens that. You scare them more. I with my seven properties, I can sell them here and rent somewhere else. Do you really want that? Do we really help the tenants in the room? My tenants want me to stay. They ask me every week if I have something for a family or someone else. An L&I inspector told me once, you are clearly a good landlord but we still have to issue this violation. In one case, that happened after the tenant damaged the HVAC system. Sometimes violations occur because tenants clog drains, leave trash outside which attracts rodents and install unsafe things. I conclude. So I think the goal is right, but speak with especially the small landlords to really target the bad ones and ensure that there's more people attracted to Philadelphia being a good landlord. The best thing for all tenants here is if they have a choice to go somewhere else and get out from the bad landlord and scarcity is the core problem. Let's solve that, and bad landlords will be done in the city. Thank you for your time. (Applause.)
Thank you so much. Appreciate you. Thank you. Please state your name for the record.
Hi. My name is Greg Wertman. I am President of HAPCO Philadelphia. First though, let me remind everybody if you don't know what HAPCO is, it's a nonprofit organization made up of mostly small landlords, small (inaudible), less than five units. One of our biggest proponents is we want our members to be compliant. Why? Because we believe that the laws that have been passed have been passed in favor of tenants of course and landlords proper housing, but we also encourage it because we want an even playing field. And what I mean by that is unfortunately, we don't have that in Philadelphia. We have an estimated 73,000 unlicensed landlords. How do licensed landlords compete against them? We can't. They're not following the rules and we are. The organization itself is not against the bill as it -- the essence of the bill is good, but there are certain things, as we pointed out, that we'd like to see change in order for that bill to move forward. Unfortunately, at this point it doesn't look like that's going to happen. But the previous person spoke about keeping the wealth in our Black and Brown community. And what's happened here, HAPCO at one time had 3000 members. COVID crushed us. We're down to 800, 900 members. Again, Philadelphia, small landlords make up 74% of all low- to moderate-income housing, and that's why you're seeing a giant decrease in this housing. We are proponents that want to grow the affordable housing. It's very, very important. We see it and we know it. But the problem is we need bills. When these bills and legislation are written, we need a component in there for landlords that are small landlords, similar to what Ms. Landau, Councilwoman Landau wrote into one of her legislations. That is so important because we really need to keep affordable housing, but we also need to grow it. Legislations that are being passed in the city, it's hard to get investors to come in and say, hey, do you want to invest in affordable housing. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. And what we'd like to see is more things written into legislation or even change some of the legislation that we are currently have so that small landlords are not thrown in the same pile as these guys that have 200 to 300 units. Thank you.
Hi, Councilmembers. My name is Ethan Kalathil. I am a small landlord, about five buildings in University City. I started being a landlord 30 years ago and I purchased my first building from my landlord Ollie. I've been doing this ever since. I'm really sympathetic about having safe and affordable housing, because I don't want unhappy tenants. I don't want people who can't pay rent or are not happy with where they're staying. But I do have an issue that I want to bring to you. Over the last years, I've seen my 5 taxes go up 500%. My utilities 6 have gone up 300%. Labor and 7 materials have gone up 300%. My 8 rent has only gone up 50%. Okay. 9 And the rules are consistently 10 changing. And I can tell you, I 11 really don't know what it requires 12 to be compliant. 13 Paperwork is getting to 14 be too much. It's too complex and 15 difficult for both the landlords 16 and tenants to understand what's 17 going on. And there is no 18 transparency or easy-to-understand 19 regulations that makes sense. If 20 I'm going to need a manager to keep up with all these regulations and keep up with the changes, it only makes housing less affordable. I enjoy the fact that I'm managing the buildings. Unlike the larger landlords, I cannot spread out my overhead. And again, as everybody is saying, less supply means less affordable housing. I find it really disturbing that I need a cause at the end of lease term or to return payments for services that is rented. It absolutely makes no sense. It's a serious concern for affordable housing. And I just want to say that overregulation will kill affordability for both residents and small owners. I understand lots of things have not been fair. There are specific abuses that should be addressed specifically without overregulating and killing affordability. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you so much. Please state your name and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon. My name is Seth Floyd. Been a resident in Philadelphia for 46 years. First as a tenant. 7 I've since ascended to graduate 8 from Temple. Being a hometown guy, 9 sports fan, fan of you as well, fan 10 of Councilman O'Rourke. But I'm 11 also a licensed realtor for the 12 last 21 years, also broker, also 13 own a title company, also property 14 manager, also on the Board for 15 HAPCO, also a member of the Greater 16 Association of Realtors, Also a 17 member of Tricounty Realtors, also a member BCAR in New Jersey, broker in New Jersey. But I'm also a Black man who has lived my entire life in Philadelphia and very, very, very, very, very versed on the challenges and the pain that the tenants come in here today, those challenges of what they have. For the thousands of calls that you guys receive as complaints, you are not a first call. The Realtor Association and the realtors and the professionals and the property managers and other property managers and the other professional organizations are most of these people's first call. We are the ones a lot of times placing the tenants in the properties. And so, when later on they have problems with the landlords, they call me because guess what? You got me here, this is what's going on, let me tell you what's happening. And so, the boots on the ground, which I would consider most of the realtors and the property managers and most of the members from HAPCO to be, we deal with most of the problems quietly and in silence. We address the issues. We pay money, we instruct, we educate, we go to court and we educate the tenants. We enforce, we write letters, we teach, we preach, we educate, and then only in worse circumstances where every now and then you may hear from a landlord escalating to a Council office. What we're asking -- and I know that we're leaving committee hearing already, I will congratulate you on what you've accomplished to get to this point and leave here today. The only thing I can ask, and I'm just praying, that the words that have been said here and behind closed doors about implementing the amendments, which have been very well-thought-out and planned, that those do not go away and that this conversation continues, and that many more of these amendments are actually incorporated into this bill before this goes live in public. I know that we are in an environment here in Philadelphia, which essentially is a one-party system, where the diversity of thought and sometimes not coming through a legislative part, but the diversity of thought comes in you actually extending yourself and having your minds open to listen and hear from the people important to the city. That you listen to these housing associations, the Apartment Association, that the other professionals as well as some of the individual represented landlords, that you take those comments and now it's on you to take those comments seriously and weigh them against what your intentions are and make sure that we have something that's safe. The process here and what we have in this city is a delicate, delicate balance. And what I'm saying to you guys is that the delicate balance can be very easily tipped one way or the other and sometimes with legislation, even if it has good intentions. The real estate community will help you. HAPCO is going to help with this legislation moving forward. And I'm just asking that you realize that delicate balance. We all want fairness and we were going to help you get there together. Just please make sure that you do not turn a blind eye to us when we leave here. (Applause.)
Thank you so much. And I know that Councilmember O'Rourke is committed to that.
Thank you for your testimony, for those who all have testified so far. In the same way that I mentioned earlier, I appreciate the conversation exchange with Mr. Bey, I also want to say that I appreciate the conversation with you as well, Mr. Seth, on as we tried to get to a place where these were prepared to go forward, hearing all that feedback, it's super intentional, important. And I'm not paying lip service by saying that we are genuinely engaged with conversation with folks to get these as best as we possibly can going forward. That's not lip service. I am not part of the one-party system. I'm an actual independent, which is the reason why I was happy to have the conversation with you. So thank you for engaging in good faith. I have zero issue with hearing out concerns. The hope is not to cause harm in any area. It's to create help and make things safe and healthy for all. And I believe if we work together, we can get to a good place. So again, thank you for your testimony. And, yes, we will be working together going forward.
Hi, guys. Jim Kenekelen. I'm a small mom-and-pop landlord. So I came today and I heard the opening comments. And I heard a lot of the comments from tenant rights groups and I didn't hear anything I disagreed with. I'm actually not opposed to this bill. I'm no expert on it so don't hold me to it. But just one thing jumps out at me. And it might not just be what's implemented within this bill. It's also other regulatory things. If we don't sign a form or get a form signed at the beginning of a lease, you know, lot of stuff going on, and then we find out a year and a half or two years later we have to rebate all that rent back, a $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 bill. Does that make sense to anybody? I mean, you guys are Philadelphia employees. If you didn't sign your employee handbook by accident the first day you were hired, you know, I forgot that. And they said, oh, you owe us your two years' back salary for that. Like, no, I don't think you guys would support that, so if you just watch out for just these little facets of these bills that could really blow someone out of the water. Again, I don't think anyone would be supportive of you forgot to get this, oh, you didn't know about -- you should get your license but, oh, you forgot that or you didn't get the tenant to sign the certificate that you have and everything's up and running, oh, you need to give them $35,000 back. Again, the word insanity comes to mind. And that will keep us -- I mean, if some of these things go through, I just will have to sell my properties. And you want me in the city operating my properties. I mean, it's almost like this dichotomy. We're the third peg in the chair. You really, really want me to provide affordable housing, and you want more supply. I do a great job of it. A lot of these folks do a great job. A lot of the horror stories are -- and I don't want to bash, it's their own business, but a lot of it is the corporate tenants with 200, 300 units. And I'm not bashing them or anybody or anything, but you don't want to bring me down trying to police them, because I'm doing a really, really good job. I was in finance. I burned out. I got into this because I know Philadelphia needs housing. I ran into an ex-Penn alum, classmate. I hadn't seen her in more years than I'd like to think, admit. She said, what are you doing? I said, I had to leave finance. She said, what are you doing? I said, I'm a housing provider. I'm doing landlording. She said, wow, you could have done anything, that's really nice of you. But I get into housing and why does everyone hate me. So a few things we do, we're like the mongooses. That's actual plural for mongoose against --
I'm sorry. We're actually like the mongooses, yes, against the cobras, which would be private equity. I mean, Amazon's even looking to get into urban housing because they want to monetize it. Monetize means they want to profit off it and they see (inaudible) in it, they can get more money out of -- more expensive. But by our existence, we keep them out, the fact that we own these properties. So you don't let that be lost on you. We fight blight. And again, we deter gentrification. Because we exist, there's less gentrification. Developers bring justification, not bashing them, but we don't cause gentrification. We fight gentrification by our existence. That's it. Thank you. Appreciate that.
Thank you so much for your testimony. Ms. Jones, can you please call the next public testimony.
Camille Pearsall, Mike Lynch, Nicole Bruce, Amile -- I can't really understand the handwriting and Nadira Branche. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank you. If you could just proceed, others will come and join you. Thank you.
My name is Mike Lynch. I'm a landlord, small time. I listened to the people who were complaining about all the issues that they had with their landlords. And I recognized that almost all of them were all about code violations that the city had the obligation to do something about. And I guess the tenants didn't want to complain, but if something is already on the books and already can be enforced and I would like to see the city try and do more to get that done to solve the problems of code violations in a reasonable manner. It seems like the city doesn't have enough resources to do that. I'd like to encourage the city to figure out a way to apply more resources to that. The other situation that I can think of is that I've known a lot of landlords who've had problems evicting a tenant because of the city's -- they've got the stopgap where you have to wait a month before you can complain about it before you can go to eviction. And then once you get into the eviction stand, it takes another eight months before you can even begin the eviction process because you had to wait for a court period and then you have to find a Sheriff who's willing to do that. And the city has made a rule now that the Sheriff has to be a legal thing. I understand the city has taken steps to improve the number of Sheriffs. I would like to see if the city can figure out a way to speed up the hearing process because eight months is a lot of money. And that's basically all I have to say. I just wanted to know that there's a lot of things that just aren't being enforced or being enforced poorly and if you can figure out a way to do that.
Thank you so much. Minority Leader Kendra Brooks and I, she's taken the lead on this, and I've had my own conversations as well, have been bringing together landlords and tenants to have a conversation about the eviction process. So I think we're identified places that could use a little more efficiency.
One last thing I would like to know, is it possible I can see what the -- you all said you voted on something that was amended after we reviewed it and we have no idea what it was that you just all agreed to pass. And I'd be curious to know what that was.
We have copies of the bills today. And this is only on a committee. It still has to go to the entire Council and be voted on again. So there is time and there's plenty of time to talk to the bill's sponsor, which is Councilmember O'Rourke if you have any input. Thank you.
Hi. It's no longer morning. Good afternoon. My name is Nadera Branche. I'm a lifelong Philadelphia resident. When people say they are a small landlord and have three or four buildings, I have one unit that is literally in my home. I own an owner-occupied duplex. When I didn't have money, that rent paid my mortgage. I have worked very hard. I come from generations on public welfare. I've worked very hard to get off of public welfare. Okay. And I am afraid that the onslaught of all these bills are going to either force me back on public welfare because the support -- let me just say what I want. Please create a public advocate -- I'm not sure of the proper noun office -- for really small landlords like me. Okay. Otherwise, I will -- I'm one generation removed from welfare and I'll be back on welfare. My property taxes increased over 70% one year. I was a federal employee who lost my job because of the new administration change in priorities. Okay. I was on ECA's program to get repairs for my house for two years, two years. But when my income changed -- when they finally got around to me for two years, my income changed and they said, oh, you no longer qualify. What? I qualified when it -- what am I supposed to do. What did that do? That led me to no longer be able to be in compliant with the PHDC programs. Because I own an owner-occupied duplex, I qualify for the rental improvement fund program and the one for the owners, two programs. But because I need some repairs to keep the costs down and the construction workshop, they said go and see if you can apply for ECA to get some of these costs down. The one who spoke before who praised the PHDC programs are contractors. I'm not. That's not my profession. I don't know how to navigate construction projects. It's not my forte. Okay. But those programs are great for either extremely low-income and you got to wait around or you have to know how to -- you have to have experience in construction projects. I don't have that. So I lost out on all three programs and I still need repairs. And with the onslaught of all of these bills, I'm afraid to rent. My one unit is off the market. And I'm afraid that I'm going to have to sell my property because what value does it hold. Help people like me. (Applause.)
Thank you so much. I will say I appreciate your testimony. The Landlord Gateway program through the City of Philadelphia, we're trying to bolster that to get even more education out to landlords for resources. And we hope that between the Mayor's H.O.M.E. program and what we're doing here, that there will be a lot more resources going out to landlords, and we're still working on that.
Resources don't equate to actual help. Unless you have a construction manager -- you want me to control my cost of rent. Why don't you have the cost control for the construction projects through these PHDC programs, because they don't tell us, oh, we don't get involved in the price you charge between the construction company and you, but they want to approve what gets done. So I don't know how to navigate these programs unless I go to construction management school. Help me by giving me an advocate, but don't penalize me if there is an inspection, for instance, and I fail. And then what, the repercussions are penal? No. Help me. Give me resources to even be in compliance. And that's what I think a public advocate, construction project manager, I don't know, you policy folk can actually do that. If you want, talk to me because I've been through all these programs. But what I'm afraid of is being back on welfare. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you so much. Thank you for your testimony. Please state your name for the record.
Good afternoon. My name is Nicole Bruce. First of all, thank you for staying and listening and everyone that's still present, I appreciate that. My name is Nicole Bruce and I'm a long, long, long-time resident, almost 55 years. And I'm a single woman asking you to recognize what and so many others prior to me speaking know far too well, that safe healthy housing is not a luxury. It's a necessity. Housing is more than a roof over our heads. It is stability, dignity and the foundation for a life where we can truly thrive. I have no one to share the joys of housing stability with nor anyone to help the sorrows of its insecurity. Each day of uncertainty weighs heavily, and every barrier to safe housing is not just a personal struggle. It's a challenge that affects my entire community. I have survived a fire in my home. I have endured a break-in while I was present that shattered my sense of security. I have lived through winters with no 3 heat and summers with no 4 air-conditioning, freezing inside my house in January and struggling to breathe in extreme heat in July. And recently, as an adult an onset of asthma. This is not a convenience. That is instability. A home should be a place of safety and peace. Instead I have lived with fear, unsafe conditions and asthma triggered by poor air quality and extreme temperatures. The constant stress of wondering whether your home will protect you or fail you takes a real, lasting toll. Nearly 40% of Philadelphia residents are renters. That means a significant portion of our city depends on strong code enforcement and real accountability to ensure that basic standards of safety are not optional. Safe housing is a public health concern. Again, it's about stability and dignity. I urge you please to consider strengthening these inspections, enforcing heating and coding requirements and holding negligent property owners, not the small businessman, accountable. We cannot claim to be building a stronger Philadelphia while residents are living in unsafe conditions. We heard the good Reverend Councilmember O'Rourke speak about grace and mercy. Mercy says no one should suffer further. Grace says everyone deserves a home that protects their health and their peace. I ask that you emphasize grace. That means give respect and consideration every time. Because at the end of the day, a city is only as strong as the homes of its people that are forced to live in it. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much. Appreciate you. Ms. Jones, can you please call the next list.
We have Munira Edens, David Lipscomb and Ugochukwu Opara. That's all we have on the public comment list. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Can you please state your name and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Dave Lipscomb, also known as Citizen Dave, by many people. I'd like to say good afternoon Vice- Chairwoman Rue Landau and also Councilman O'Rourke. You know, as we talked here before we do need grace. We do need grace. I think my comments earlier on I saw how today I feel a little disrespected, because not all the people are here that are on your committee. And I think that call earlier I think was a disrespect to everybody in the room. And I think that's one of the issues that I've had. Now, when it comes to the bill that Councilmember O'Rourke put through, I'm not against passing it, but I'm against passing it as it's written. And the reason why is because many people believe that the narrative believed by many is that the opposition equals support for bad housing or unjust evictions, and that's not accurate. Proactive inspections and expanding good call standards may sound simple, but the real issue is how they're written, enforced and paid for. Overbroad definitions, administrative delays and compliance costs can disproportionately impact small landlords and not corporate operators that directly affects long-term asset, stability and retirement planning with small landlords. We want safe housing? We do absolutely. We want accountability? Yes, absolutely. But policy design matters. If compliance becomes unpredictable, expensive or legally risky, that's not protecting tenants. That's stabilizing small property owners who operate responsibly. The question is whether standards should exist. The question is whether the structure of this bill strengthens housing overall, will unintentionally weakens the people who provide most of it. When I heard the people today testifying, especially the landlords, those are horror stories that we hear. And bringing it back in realtime, I just got a call about minutes ago from a tenant. 8 Okay. They had a problem paying 9 the rent because of their Social 10 Security. Okay. So we're not 11 going to get paid until they get 12 paid. That throws me in. Now, 13 we're not going to throw them out. 14 Also, I have another 15 case. There was another tenant. They called us and said, look, we're having some hard times. Okay. Can we get the rent reduced. Guess what? We gave them 500 reduction, per month reduction, because they take care of that property. And on that property, what happened is the previous tenant caused a fire to cause $200,000 damage. Okay. So this is what small landlords are dealing with. And when we deal with all these different things coming through, we got to see it through both lenses because we both want a win-win situation. One for the landlords, one for the tenants. I've been a tenant. I had roaches running through the apartment. Okay. I'm just going to say this, and what happened was I talked to the landlord, got the people together. And guess what? He went out there after some you know, conversing, sprayed it out and got rid of the roaches. So there are things that happen to tenants and I understand that. But the greatest ones take care of them. But most people, 60% of people, live in safe and healthy homes and that's what we want. So we're in agreement with the spirit of your bill, but just not how it's written right now, Councilman. Thank you very much. (Applause.)
Good afternoon. My name is Ugochukwu Opara. I am not a Philly native, but I rep Philly very, very hard, West Philly specifically. I am a small landlord. I own about or I cover about maybe 16 families, and it has been my privilege to do so since 2000 when I first got started in this industry. I have no opposition to this bill with the intentions of the bill. The concerns are the execution of it. A lot of landlords are going to be absolutely decimated if this passes. And it's not because they're against safe housing or things being properly fun. It's just because the financials of this is going to make it very difficult to look at Philadelphia and say, this is where I'm going to park my dollars, right. So that is my number one concern. A lot of landlords, as you've heard, do what they need to do. They take care of what they need to take care of. It is the penalties and these things that I think -- and I think the best example was the guy that said something about us, you get hired and you miss part of your onboarding and now you lose a year of income because you missed -- that is insane. I think that no one here is against having safe housing to tenants. No one here is against that in any way, shape or form. Like I said, it has been my privilege to adhere to all of these rules with the City of Philadelphia for the past years. Not to say 7 that everything goes perfect, but 8 the intention is there, and all of 9 my properties have the rental 10 license, the lead cert. The whole 11 kit and caboodle is there with all 12 of our tenants. 13 And if I do miss a piece 14 of paper, I am not responsible for 15 years of rent going back because at 16 the end of the day, they still got service, right. There should not be a zero sum game because paperwork isn't filed. And I think there should be something to intention, right. The lead cert, for example, there's nowhere on it for a tenant to sign. If I submit it to them and they choose not to sign it, what happens there? The intention on the landlord has, hey, I submitted it, right, it's been submitted. I could document that it's submitted, but the penalty would still carry forward. And I think those are the little things where this bill needs to be adjusted to make sure that, well, if the intention -- let's look at the intention, did the landlord actually put forth a good effort, you know what I mean. There are also situations where people can't get into these properties, right. This is a bill that's supposed to protect landlords for retaliation against tenants, right -- or tenants from retaliation against landlords. There's no protection for landlords with the retaliation of tenants. Sometimes it is intimidating to get your people in to do what you need to do from a property if they invite their whole family that have six dogs and they're just making it difficult. Nine times out of ten, I'll just call the police. They make a report, but I'm still in violation, right. So I just want to make sure that y'all understand that majority of the landlords here, we are not in opposition to this bill. It makes sense. The intention is absolutely there. It is the execution where a lot of people who are doing the right things are unjust and I think that the bill 20 should focus not just on bad landlords, also bad tenants. That's the only thing I see missing here. And if that's included, I'm 100 percent on board. Thank you for your time.
Thank you so much. Appreciate you. Ms. Jones, can you call the next list of people for public testimony.
If no one else wishes to testify on the bill resolution, we will -- that concludes the business of this Council. Thank you very much. (Committee on the Housing, Neighborhood Development and The Homeless concluded at 1:45 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I, hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence noted are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me in the foregoing matter, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. _______________________________ TANEHA CARROLL