You -- but it wasn't all of the information that we requested.
I don't know what information you requested you don't have. We can talk about that, but I don't know what you're --
Okay. Well, 55 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 I'll send you another copy of it, and I'd like your commitment that I can -- that I will -- that it is forthcoming quickly.
Yeah. I mean, I have to say what it is, but, you know, we'll look at it and get to you as quickly as we can.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for the record, we don't, as a council or a body or as freshmen, believe that we reinvented the wheel, nor cost efficiencies, but the only thing in identifying them again is to say that there's a newfound sense of urgency to close these gaps, to correct these problems. So if we've been working on 'em since God made little green apples, that's fine, but now we really need to close the loop, because now, these small 56 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 efficiencies mean savings from tough budget cuts that we're going to face. So in a spirit of cooperation and encouragement, we'd like you to really look at, you know, solving these software problems and creating the savings that we need so we can apply those revenues to needed departments and agencies. That's all --
Well, we share your sense of urgency, and I think we've conveyed that.
Thank you, Councilman. Any other questions from witnesses -- from members of this body for these witnesses? (No further questions.)
There being none, gentlemen, I want to thank you very much for coming down and giving us this 57 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 very, very important information. We look forward to working with you to iron this out 'cause we need every penny we can get. And to the Administration, if there's any support that you need from the Council to implement this program, please let us know.
You're welcome. Okay, thank you. Next on our list, we will have Ms. Vivian Miller, the Clerk of Quarter Sessions, to discuss of issue of bail collections. I must say, Miss Miller is a row office member. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Vivian Miller. I'm the Clerk of Quarter Sessions. To my right is Andrea Jefferson, who is my accountant/clerk. And to my left is Robin Jones, my first deputy.
Thank you. 58 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 Please proceed with your testimony. Or were we going to have questions? Councilman?
I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't think you have prepared testimony.
What I'd like you to do is -- this is as a result of coming to this council's attention that there may be outstanding bail money out on the streets. And in tough times, I guess the question begs itself of: How do we get those dollars more efficiently into our coffers? And what I would like you to do for us is describe the bail process for us as it exists today. And then we'll go into some understanding on how we can make it a little more efficient. And also whether the Council can be helpful in increasing fees in certain areas as to allow us to receive a little more revenue 59 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 than we today. So with that, can you describe for us how the bail process works.
Okay. First of all, bail is imposed a hundred percent. We assess a person percent of that 8 hundred percent. Thirty percent of that 9 is administrative costs. 10 Are you following me?
Okay. Now, what happens is, FJD handled all codes and forfeitures, which means the forfeitures up until '06 of last year, when CPCMS came in.
Okay. That's the State, when the State taken over. And what happened is, we then -- well, the forfeitures went down because FJD no longer did the coding; we had to take over and do the coding. 60 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 So, but I'll tell you -- better still, I will let Andrea Jefferson, who's my accountant/clerk, explain that process to you.
Andrea Jefferson. I'm the account clerk for the Clerk of Quarter Sessions. The process of bail, the judge imposes a bail of a hundred percent. The surety comes to the bail window, and they pay 10 percent of the hundred percent. And that money is collateral, stating that the defendant is going to show up for court. If the person does not show up for court, then the judge will enter, like, a sue-out forfeited bail. The defendant has 20 days to respond to the letter. And if they do not respond to it, then the judgment is entered. 61 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 So in that process, we have taken over the judgments. So now, once the judgment is entered, the bail money is assessed. That percent that's 6 collected is forfeited and it goes to the 7 City. So then the defendant/surety will 8 owe the 90 percent. 9 So basically the 90 percent is 10 basically a judgment, but you have to put the judgment for the whole thing, for the whole total amount, to cover the money that was assessed to the City.
So if I understand this correctly -- let's use a hypothetical figure of a thousand dollars.
Okay. So -- okay, you have a thousand dollars. The person doesn't show up for court.
So we have the hundred dollars immediately. 62 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890
Yeah, we have a hundred dollars right immediately. And then also we have a $10 bond fee, because for every bond that is printed out, it's $10.
So then there is $900 that was owed to the City of Philadelphia.
The judgment is for a thousand because you have to cover the hundred that was taken.
How do we secure the other 900 when the defendant comes in; is that unsecured? Meaning, is there a house? is there property? is there 63 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 a bank account?
In some cases how that money is collected is, if there is, like, a payoff, if a person owns property and they find out that you owe the Clerk of Quarter Sessions, like, $900 in judgment, you need to pay it off before you can sell your house.
'Cause sometimes they could -- they can get money off -- say, like, if they sell they house, then whatever they owe, say like they owe $900, then that money will come to us. FJD collects that money. Then they would deposit that money in our account, and then we would 64 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 forward it to the City.
So there is a scenario where a person can approve bail for a person and may not have it secured by real estate; it is on the person's name?
So what percentage of bail in the City of Philadelphia is secured by real estate today? Roughly, approximately.
Roughly? It's -- I know it's low. They do more 10 percent than real estate; that I do know, but -- 'cause they do do real estate bail, but it all depends on the value of the property.
And that -- they usually take the value of the property, and whatever adjustment is left, they'll take, like, 10 percent; they have to put 65 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 up 10 percent of it.
I know today... Well, we'd have to give you the figure, but it's a large sum of money.
So there's 20 $20 million approximately owed on forfeited bail today? Or is that more?
That's just estimated because we only -- in the figures that I have, it only went to -- the accounting -- the accountant only did 66 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 from 2005 to 2008, but you have to go prior to 2005.
Would it be out of the realm of possibility for that number to be higher?
It could be higher or lower. And then also, too, you have to take on account that you have vacated orders that can affect that 90 percent, because the person can say, Hey, you have a judgment against you. And if they want their bail money back, they can file a petition through the president judge. And it all depends on the reason why they didn't show up for court; the judge will either grant it or deny it.
It was brought to my attention that that figure could be as high as a billion dollars; is that beyond the realm of possibility? 67 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 Yes?
So it's not a billion dollars, but it could be -- what could be the possible high end of this based on the fact that a lot of the prior years aren't assessed in your figures? What could be the mean amount of money owed the City of Philadelphia?
300 million, okay. Now, you mentioned in your prior testimony that we secure some of the bail by real estate, but we're not today prepared to say how much percentage of that 200 million is real estate secured?
Well, that part of the process is not done by our office. 68 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890
Well, that process is between FJD and the Controller's Office.
So then when a person wants bail, who determines whether -- is there a financial assessment done --
If somebody wants to put up property, they first have to find out the value of the property, and it all depends on the amount of bail that the judge will impose on the defendant. You know, sometimes they use half real estate and half 10 percent. They use half cash, half real estate.
So in order 69 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 to get this accurately assessed, we need to contact the Controller's Office --
-- to find out what percentage of the potential 200 million is secured by real estate?
Because if we do an assessment of the person's ability to secure by real estate, what are some of the litmus tests when we say, All right, they don't have real estate; let's go in that person's name. What would be that threshold that we say, Okay, we're going to let them not use real estate; we're going to let them use their name as 70 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 security. Could you describe what that threshold is? Or you don't do that, the controller -- it goes to the bail commissioner. So then they make a determination as to this person's economic is such that we could use the real estate.
Well, they have that option, whoever the surety is, to use real estate or use cash. It all depends on, you know, what they have at hand.
All right. You mentioned earlier that there's a percentage, 10 percent, that you get for processing fees?
The 10 -- no, there's a $10 processing fee. 71 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890
The 10 percent was 8 speaking in reference to what's paid from 9 the 100 percent. If a judge orders bail 10 on a thousand dollars --
-- that's for the 10 percent. The administrative fee, which I think you're asking, is 30 percent.
That's money that's generated for the City whenever the bail is imposed or paid.
So currently, 72 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 do you know what we receive in revenues as a municipality of that 30 percent?
Let's see. For -- for, um... Okay. For 2008 up to date, it's 2 million, 800, 900 -- 600 dollars, 436 --
So we can round it off to a little less than 3 million. And --
So annually, your estimation is, we're going to be about at 3 million, do you think?
So if we were to -- and does this council have the ability to increase that fee?
Okay. So you're recommending that we go from 30 percent to what percent?
35 percent. So that would give us an additional what in revenue annually?
Well, those numbers we haven't come up with because we wanted to see what the process would be, I guess, in terms of even asking for the 35 percent.
All right. So your recommendation on the record is 74 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 for us, for the administrative portion of the fees, to go from 30 percent to 35 percent; is that correct?
We're also asking that possibly -- in terms of looking at -- we understood to come here today was to ask for revenue-enhancement ideas, and one of them was to raise the cap; it's a cap of $750. Basically what happens is, if a person pays a bail of, say, $2500, the most that they could take would be the $750; they couldn't exhaust the person's fees. That's 30 percent, or 750. What we're asking is to propose it maybe to a thousand dollars so that it would generate money for the City. So we're asking to raise the cap.
So included 75 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 in the 30 to 35 percent increase, which is a percent increase, you're recommending 4 to go remove the cap to -- from 750 to 5 $1,000?
I'm just trying to figure out, you don't -- you don't -- do you set bail?
The judge sets bail, right? Do commissioners set bail?
The bail commissioners set bail? At what point does the client pay the fee for bail? They say $25,000 and they said that's how much your bail is; they have to pay 10 percent of that? 76 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890
So they pay 10 10 percent of that -- that would be, what did I say, $2500?
The cap means that you only -- up to a certain amount, irregardless of how much the bail is, they only have to pay up to $750.
So if it's a million-dollar bail, they still pay only up to $750?
No, no. What happens is that the cap is, as it pertains to the 30 percent. The City can only take 77 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 up to 30 percent. Anything over the 30 percent -- anything over -- anything over -- up to -- anything over $750 they 5 can't take it as it pertains to -- 6
So your fee 7 is, the City gets 30 percent of $700 -- 750, right, okay. So what happens to the rest of the money?
It goes to the surety 'cause the money is split between the City and the surety. You have 30 percent -- on each bail is 30 percent.
The 70 percent of the 10 percent goes to the surety, the 78 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 person who actually paid the money.
Okay. So all of that money floating out there doesn't -- is not the City's money; it's the surety's -- the person who assures the bond.
It's theirs until they forfeit. If they don't show up to court, then at that point, the City enters a judgment and they keep the 10 percent.
So if I don't show up for my court date and I have a $25,000 judgment, so Mr. Jones assured that they would get the -- assured that 19 I would show up. 20
This is why -- 24 (Indiscernible; parties talking 25 over each other.) 79 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890
-- the $25,000, you get 750. And what happens to the rest of the money; it goes to Mr. Jones?
Whoever put the money up. See, this is why a lot of the sureties put the money in the inmate, the person who is up in front of the judge; they put it in their name because they don't want to be responsible just in case the person jumped bail. But then if the person jumped bail, then they're not responsible.
Of a forfeited (inaudible). There's a difference. What happens is, there's 10 percent, okay, that's paid off.
That's a different scenario; that's a thousand dollars, okay? You pay a $100 as your 10 percent. 80 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890
All right. The City takes 30 percent of that off of the administrative fee, off of the percent. 6
You're entitled to your 10 percent, minus the 30 percent if you don't jump bail. If you jump bail, then what happens is, the City takes -- you go up before a judge, and if the judge says he doesn't reinstate that, that money goes back to the City; that's money that goes to the City. If you're talking about that 90 percent, the difference between the 10, the $900 we were talking about in reference to the example we used earlier, 81 12/10/08 FISCAL STABILITY, RES. 080603, 890 that's the judgment that's entered to the defendant if it's not --
There are several things we're trying to figure out. Number one -- (Laughter.)