COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Saturday, December 2, 2000 10:15 a.m. - - - BILL NO.'s: 705, 706, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 729, 730, 731, 732 733 Related to New Stadiums (Full text of all bills attached hereto.) PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL, Vice Chair COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK J. DICICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN W. THACHER LONGSTRETH COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS I N D E X Boston City Councilmembers Maura Hennigan and Chuck Turner. . . . . . . . Leonard Tose . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94 NAACP Jerry Mondesire. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102 Clinton Connor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 114 Robert Sklaroff, 30th St. Station Proponent 116 Michael Sklaroff, young son of R. Sklaroff 120 Herbert Sumsky, Private Citizen. . . . . . . . 125 Beth McConnell, PennPIRG . . . . . . . . . . . 126 John Vago, Private Citizen . . . . . . . . . . 135 Bob Sorel, Philadelphia Urban League . . . . . 139 Chris Randolph, Philadelphia Green Party . . . 148 David Gleason, Northern Liberties Resident . . 158 Dan McShain, Northern Liberties Resident . . . 162 3 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS P R O C E E D I N G S
Good morning, everyone, and welcome. This is a continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No.'s 705, 706, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 729, 730, 731, 732, and 733. Our first guests, I certainly want to welcome them. They are two members of City Council from Boston, and I would ask that they please approach the witness table. Their names are. . .
Councilmembers Maura Hennigan and Chuck Turner. (Witnesses come forward.)
Members of the Council, ladies and gentlemen, it is a pleasure to be here in your beautiful city. We 4 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS flew down from Boston this morning. For the record, my name is Maura Hennigan. I am a City Councilor in Boston. I serve as a District City Councilor. Although I was first elected when I was years old, I can say that I am the 7 longest-serving member of the City Council, first 8 serving as an At-Large Councilor, and then when we 9 changed our form of government to at-large and 10 district, have been a District Councilor for the 11 past 16 years, so it's a total of 19 years that I 12 have served. I presently chair the Ways and Means Committee for the City Council. And we are here today because Councilor Cohen, as well as Councilor Ortiz, brought to our attention that you are taking up this matter possibly on Thursday for a vote, and that we, in our city in Boston, and at least five of our -- AUDIENCE MEMBER: Go back to Boston.
Excuse me. I am not going to tolerate -- I am not going to tolerate this. We did have guidelines. And anybody that disrupts anyone testifying will be escorted out of the chamber, and possibly arrested if they refuse to leave. 5 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS Now, we're -- this is a very important issue, and I am asking that we respect each other, please. Please proceed. BOSTON
Thank you. I am here, in addition to my colleague Councilor Chuck Turner, who will speak after me. I also am here to present testimony to each and every one of you, Madam President, from three other colleagues, who were unable to come down today, given that we just found out about this yesterday: Councilor Francis Mickey Roach, At-Large City Councilor; Councilor Peggy Davis Mullen, At-Large Councilor; and Councilor Michael Ross, who is a District Councilor, and he is the District Councilor where the facility in Boston is being proposed to be sited. Councilor Maureen Feeney, who I do not have a letter from today but was unable to reach her until last evening and her office staff had gone home, asked me to express her opposition to public subsidy of stadiums as well in my testimony here today. Let me say that I certainly am not 6 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS familiar with the specific details, as obviously you are with your legislation. What I feel that I can comment on is that there is a common bond that I believe should be established with municipalities across the country as more and more sports teams and major league baseball continue to put a burden on our tax base and our taxpayers by asking municipalities to fund stadiums with their own dollars or by creating revenue streams. In the case of the City of Boston, they have asked the City to create a subsidy through a $212 million proposal that has already been passed by the state legislature; and although not physically before the City Council, the City Council is hoping this coming Wednesday to take a symbolic vote to send a message to the Red Sox, to major league baseball, and to other municipalities that it is time to say no to public subsidies. The $212 million that our plan is asking for includes $140 million for the City to take private property by eminent domain and displace those businesses; and in addition to that, take $72 million to construct a 3,000-car parking garage. 7 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS I know that your city has burdens itself, both financially with your library systems; certainly in our city, in addition to our libraries, our housing is a major concern for our residents, our schools, our infrastructure. And although the City of Boston is in very, very good financial order and actually has a substantive undesignated fund balance in excess of 100 million, we are very, very much needing resources to deal with ongoing issues that I just mentioned. So that is why our constituents are very strongly urging us to reject that, and I am here as one of at least five councilors whose testimony I have before me that are asking for this to be rejected. And what you should know is that we have a 13-member body, and unlike you, we only need 5 members to block a loan order; a two-thirds super majority is needed from our body in order to pass a loan order. And as in the case with yours, it is two separate readings which have to be separated by at least a week's time. I know that the time is limited today, and I don't want to take more time than is 8 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS necessary. I know my colleague Councilor Turner has a statement to make as well. But we are more than happy, as far as our ability allows us, to answer questions, which you may have. But once again, in closing, let me just say that it's so important that we as cities stand together. And although I am a Red Sox fan, and probably in Philadelphia, I am sure you can understand that, as I'm sure each and every one of you cheer your respective teams on, let me say that it is not -- you can be a sports fan without believing in public subsidies. Major league baseball and sports teams and the players have more than adequate resources to make these deals work. What we should not be doing is burdening our tax payers.
We should be about the business should be about: helping the people who need the help, stimulating economies, but at the same time, making sure that our first priority are our people. Thank you very much for the invitation to be here today, and more than happy to help in any way that we can.
Thank you. 9 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS BOSTON
My name is Chuck Turner. I am a City Council representative of the 7th District in the City of Boston. I support wholeheartedly the statements that were made by Councilor Hennigan, and I thought that perhaps what I could offer to the record that might be of some help in your deliberations would be a few statements from a recent study that we would urge the City Councilors to get and examine carefully. It's called "The Stadium Gambit and Local Economic Development," by Dennis Coates and Brad Humphrey. They are professors in economics at the University of Maryland who undertook the study because of their concern and interest in the effect of the stadiums in Baltimore, on the economics of the situation in Baltimore. I'd like to just read a couple of sections to give you a gist of the conclusions that they come to after studying 37 cities, 37 cities that had stadiums built over a period of time. "They say that in stark contrast to the results claimed by most perspective economic 10 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS impact studies commissioned by teams or stadium advocates, the consensus in the academic literature has been that the overall sports environment has no measurable effect on the level of real income in the metropolitan area. Our own research suggests that professional sports may be a drain on local economies rather than an engine of economic growth." And, again, I understand that those statements might be very startling, given the general train of thought, but we really urge you to look at the data and the research that they use to back up those conclusions, because it's not just based on feelings; it's based on their analysis of stadium construction and operation around the country. They go on to say that "Our results indicate that the professional sports environment in the 37 metropolitan areas in our sample had no 21 measurable impact on the growth rate of real per capita income in those areas." And, secondly, that "The professional sports environment has a statistically significant impact on the level of real per capita income in our sample of 11 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS metropolitan areas, but that the overall impact is negative." Again, that mix might seem startling but their conclusions are backed up by facts. I'd like just to conclude by saying that those of us who have the responsibility of representing people in the urban areas across this country are facing very, very difficult situations. Whether we're looking at issues of housing, looking at issues of education, looking at issues of health care, transportation systems, we have to acknowledge that there's some severe issues and concerns that we have to use the public dollars very carefully to deal with. As I've looked at the data around not only the situation in Boston but the situation in other urban areas where stadiums have been built and developed, unfortunately, what you see is the sports teams moving forward in terms of their work and value but the economics of the cities declining. When you look at the City of St. Louis and see that their school system is in receivership, when you look at Cleveland and see what's happening to their school system, when you look at other cities and see the kind of economic 12 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS problems that those cities are having, where the sports teams re flourishing with public subsidies, you say that this has to come to an end, we have to begin to reverse this policy of putting public subsidies into private ventures while the people of our cities suffer. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Is Fenway Park privately or publicly owned? BOSTON
Fenway Park has the majority interest presently owned by the (unintelligible) Trust. There are a number of other limited partners. You may be aware that Mr. Harrington, who is the executor of the trust, has recently put the Red Sox up for sale. What we feel is very, very important, and I don't want to elaborate too much 'cause I know you didn't ask this question, is that we really feel that this is a wonderful opportunity, given the fact that there are so many deep pockets out there and that the Red Sox is a very desirable team, that we would hope that a private entity not only would buy the Sox and be able to fund it 13 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS themselves but also be able to fund a new stadium, and we are hoping to send them that message, that prospective owners would realize that is what they're going to have to deal with when they take it.
Thank you. The Chair at this time recognizes Councilman Goode.
Thank you, Madam President. Thank you for coming this morning. I have a few questions. Over the last few days of these hearings, we've been discussing the issue of public financing, and the points I've tried to raise over those days is that public financing has come -- discussion of public financing has come without a discussion to public benefit. Most people have come to talk against this deal and not talk in terms of any cost benefit analysis or really examine what type of benefits can come from public finance and what type of public investment we should make. I have a few questions about Boston as it relates to whether there's a similar model here 14 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS with Philadelphia. What's the African-American population of Boston? BOSTON
The African-American population of Boston is approximately 120,000.
And the Asian population is about 5 to 5.8 percent. So calculations are that in the census data that's going to come out in the next year, we expect that 15 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS Boston will show itself to be 50 percent of color -- Asian, Latino, African-American.
And what percentage of women are there in Boston? BOSTON
I really couldn't -- I couldn't tell you that. I don't know.
Let's say for a second that you did believe in public financing of stadiums and major economic development projects because you saw it as a means of infusing investment in minority and women-owned businesses. What type of goals would have to exist for you to buy into the public subsidy of 16 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS projects for that multi-million-dollar fusion of business capital? BOSTON
From my perspective, you would have to look at the issue of the multiplier; that is, you would have to look at the businesses where the investment is going to be made, the number of employees that those businesses have, and the spin-off to the particular communities that those businesses are located in and the employees are coming from. I have two reactions. One is that in terms of the Red Sox investment in relationship to the communities of color in Boston, their past practices have not indicated that there would be significant economic spin-off from the development of the new stadium by them; and secondly, when we look at the problems that we're having with education in Boston, when we look at the problems we're having with housing and the fact that many of our people are being --
My question is actually directly related to, if you were to actually look at public subsidy of major economic development projects, major economic development 17 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS projects, and consider that there could be a level of investment, public investment, that would bring the type of benefit to disadvantaged businesses, at what level would that investment have to be? At what percentage of participation for disadvantaged businesses would there have to be for you to support public subsidy? BOSTON
At this point, I'd say I -- personally, I couldn't support the use of bonds, the use of tax-free bonds, to accumulate capital that would be going into businesses in my community as opposed to schools, as opposed to affordable housing, and as opposed to transportation systems.
I'm asking you to speak about economic development projects -- not about education, not about the housing development, but specifically speak to this -- I'll change the line of questioning a bit. What are the participation goals in Boston for minority and women businesses? BOSTON
In terms of the City's policy, it's a 15 percent -- they have a 15 percent guideline in terms of participation 18 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS of businesses owned by people of color. In terms of workers on public construction projects --
It's 15 percent for 9 minorities and I believe it's 5 percent for women; 10 is that correct? 11 BOSTON
Are you aware that 14 there is actually a 49 percent participation goal 15 here within this project for disadvantaged businesses, 35 percent for minorities, 12 percent for women, and 2 percent for disabled-owned businesses? BOSTON
I'm asking, are you aware of those participation goals for this project here? BOSTON
No, but I think if you -- I wasn't aware of that rate, but 19 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS if you look at the size of the project, I think it's essentially a billion dollars, and $500 million going to private businesses in the minority community, to businesses owned by women is very substantial. However, the question -- the question I think we have to really look at, and it's a question that we have to look at in each city, is what is the situation in the schools of our city? The schools of Boston --
Actually today, you are on that side of the table and I'm on this side of the table. BOSTON
I feel that as a legislator, I do respect you as legislator, but actually, I'm posing the questions to you. You made your testimony. I'm asking, really, did you know of those participation goals, and does that make a difference to you? I mean, can you imagine any major economic development project in Boston one 20 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS day having 35 percent minority participation, percent women participation, and percent disabled? Can you imagine that? BOSTON
At this 6 time, given the racial politics of Boston, it's 7 difficult to imagine. 8
Well, clearly, this 9 is a different city, and these two teams have 10 committed to -- 11 (Applause.) 12
I don't think that there is any other major economic development project, economic development initiative, that we could be considering in this city at this time that could infuse hundreds of millions of dollars into minority and women-owned businesses. There are people within this city, people within other urban centers around this country that talk about creating economic opportunities but don't know how to do it. Until you can suggest to us how we otherwise would infuse hundreds of millions of dollars to minority and women-owned businesses, I thank you for your advice as it relates to public 21 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS subsidy, but you're not needed here. (Applause.) BOSTON
Well, in Boston, we give people who have come to testify an opportunity to give a response to statements that have been made. Would I have an opportunity to give an opportunity to respond?
What's very important that the City Council look at is the effect of public investments over a long period; that is, you're talking about a 30-year period of a financing. So while you can, I think, applaud appropriately the fact that there's going to be a major investment in businesses owned by women and people of color -- and that's significant and major -- you have to also raise the question of whether the public financing of this project will, in fact, weaken your ability to educate your children, effectively provide health care for the people of your city, effectively provide transportation so that people, working people of 22 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS the city, can move back and forth, provide affordable housing. And if in your analysis, you can see that you cannot only guarantee over the lifetime of this project that the public subsidies will be there so that you can have what you want in education, health care, transportation, and other areas that are very important to the life of the city, as well as have the economic investment, then you should go ahead. My understanding is that the details of this plan have not been worked out, that the Mayor is saying to the Council of Philadelphia, Trust me, let me work out the details. I think that suggests that there is not a solid financial strategy that's been worked out and that you're treading on very dangerous ground -- not for yourself as Councilpeople, but for the people of your city, and you need to be aware the lures that come from major investments in businesses which could in the long run be really devastating to the people of your neighborhoods.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman 23 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS Mariano.
Thank you, Madam President. Well, along the lines of Councilman Goode, I grabbed them before this started, and I said, you know, you're aware that this chamber is packed with building trades people and -- (Applause.)
This is obviously not going to be an easy thing for you, so the gloves are off. I'm glad Wilson went first. BOSTON
But -- and I appreciate your, you know, your rebuttal back to Councilman Goode. But, you know, I didn't know you were going to be here till I walked in these chambers today, so I didn't have fully have time to prepare. And my first thought, which is very emotional, and some people around think I'm too emotional -- I don't know where they get that from, but this is a big deal. Why would you listen to two Councilpeople who are obviously 24 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS against this project, fly you all the way down here, on maybe their campaign funds or City funds, and then you sit here and try to tell us what's good for us. And I believe it's from the goodness of your hearts. You have a letter here from Councilman Roache who I know, wait till I talk to him. Next time he needs me to come up there and talk about something, I mean, that doesn't happen. But it just amazes me that you would only talk to two people. When I asked Miss Henniger -- Hennigan? BOSTON
Hennigan? I said, you know, there's -- mostly everybody here is for this project, and you said you understand there's some people in the middle. It's my understanding there's nobody in the middle -- there's two against and everybody for, okay? (Applause.) BOSTON
No, no, let me -- 25 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS BOSTON
I'm sorry, I thought you were finished, I apologize.
After this is all done, you'd have been better off letting Councilman DiCicco and I take you to the Four Seasons for a nice breakfast, because what's going to happen here is, you're going to come down here -- you're going to come down here and we're going to go, Oh, geez, you know, things are nice in Boston. And probably we have a lot in common, especially Chuck and I, 'cause we both represent the 7th Council District, and I do know a little bit about the 7th Council District in Boston -- Dorchester, the Irish Riviera. It's a beautiful place. You know, and we're pretty -- we're a lot like Boston because it's a very parochial town. We're much more like Boston than we are like New York City; New York's too busy. But one of things I hate -- and this is my naive Philadelphia roots -- is when people come from other cities and tell us how to coach our sports teams, how to run our politics, or how to build our stadiums. 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS (Applause.)
The main thing that concerns me is how two Councilpeople would let somebody else bring them down here. I would check it out before I went to Boston. I'd say, Yo, Chuck, if I'm coming up there, I need to know who it looks like, what's -- are you dealing 2-4? 'Cause if you are, I got to see who's with you, maybe there's somebody -- you know, maybe the majority has a sense here, maybe not. I mean, Councilman Goode, that's something that was very important to him and that's important to me and it's important to a lot of these Councilpeople. We do things differently in Philadelphia. And believe me, this is no rubber stamp, this is no rubber stamp for any stadium deal. We can nitpick this deal apart forever and it never gets built, and these guys sit here -- and look, take a look, turn around, look at the front row here. These are building tradesmen, they have the same color skin you have, but everybody seems to forget that. You know, it's not a shot at you, believe me. They're working, 27 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS they're raising their family, they're coming back to invest the money in this community. This is the best deal we can get at this time. Now, if everybody wants to be (unintelligible) and negotiate their own deals, that's not what it's about for us. So I appreciate you coming down here, but I'm going to give my -- both of youse my phone number. Next time, save the airplane fare, call me, and I'll tell you what the lay of the land is before you come here. (Applause.)
I got some serious questions about Boston stadium, and these are stuff that the union and I worked out, like, in the mad last five minutes 'cause we didn't know you were going to be here. This is like, what's behind door No. 4? BOSTON
We didn't know we were going to be here until yesterday.
That's pretty good. In fact, I would fly to Boston tomorrow if you told me you had somebody pay my way, but 28 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS that's not the way it is. BOSTON
How much -- how much does a councilman make in Boston? BOSTON
$62,000? Okay. Now, here's the question. The stadium we're talking about in Boston -- now, I know absolutely nothing -- I've been to Fenway many times, Fenway's a nice place. I picked up a hot dog there at Yakkie (ph.) and walked around, and it was great. And I spoke with you. I know one of my ex in-laws is a policeman in Boston, and 29 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS it's a very interesting town. I go up there -- sometimes Wayne -- is Wayne Miller here? I go up with Wayne sometimes. It's a great thing to see a Red Sox game. I've never been to -- what's it, the Fleet Center? BOSTON
Let's just do Fenway Park, if I could call it. Is Fenway -- are you talking about building it in town? BOSTON
Fenway is a neighborhood of the City of Boston, yes.
But I want to know, are you going to knock down the original Fenway? 30 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS BOSTON
And this is all financed by the original plan that you guys aren't for up there, is it all financed by public funding -- bonds or -- BOSTON
Bonds, revenue streams created by the legislature should the Council pass the --
But by that trust. Is that trust involved in it too? BOSTON
The South Boston Veteran Trust -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
I don't have that Boston accent, so every time I say "Yakkie" (ph.), it sounds like I'm saying something bad. BOSTON
If I could just give you a short breakdown, would that be all right?
I don't 31 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS want to cut you off before you finish your question.
The funding of the Fenway proposal, which calls for the demolition of the existing Fenway Park and building approximately a 15-acre facility next to the existing park, the Sox would put into actually build the park approximately 3-plus million dollars of their own dollars. The City of Boston would take by eminent domain approximately 12 acres of property that currently has businesses, operating businesses, located on it and in addition and donate at the approximate value of $25 million for three acres of City-owned land. And within that footprint would also build in addition to the stadium, a 3,000-car parking garage for a cost of approximately $72.5 million.
And this would be one of them old-time stadiums that we're all getting back to now, with the perfect site lines for baseball, the kind they did in Camden Yards? That's the kind Fenway is, right? 32 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS BOSTON
We're all trying to get to Fenway and you guys are knocking it down. That makes no sense to me, but I guess it's because -- BOSTON
Well, actually, our colleague, Councilor Ross, who is not here today, his constituents are proposing a build-in-place model that would preserve the existing Fenway. And within the Fenway community, there are a number of people who support retaining that, but the Red Sox have continued to say that they cannot afford to do that and that it is unfeasible. So that is their position. There are people who agree with that, there are people who disagree with that.
And the reason I asked you about that and you seem to know a whole lot about that, I know absolutely nothing about Boston except what I know when I was there. You can see I know nothing about what you're doing with Fenway. I can't even tell you who the Red Sox manager is. That's how long it's been -- it's 33 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS been a couple of years since I've been up there. And I don't expect you to know anything about Philadelphia, except for, you know, this is it. And do you know who the Phillies manager is? BOSTON
We didn't beat the Packs yet, did we, in the playoffs?? (Laughter.)
All right, but, you know, I mean, that's where I'm getting at. I mean, you come down here, you come down here, and with all good intentions, again, I want to make sure, but I think you were let down a primrose 34 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS lane that doesn't exist. BOSTON
Well, let me just -- if I may, Councilor. And, certainly, I can only speak for myself, and Councilor Turner certainly is very eloquent and can speak for himself as well. We are not here to tell you what to do. We know that you are accountable to your constituents who elect you, as I am accountable to my constituents who elect me.
And I have constituents who are in the building trades, I have constituents who are not in the building trades, I have teachers, I have firefighters, I have police officers, I have people who are white-collar, blue-color, rich, poor, black, white, Latino, every possible -- I come from a very diverse district. Again, I was a former at-large councilor representing an entire city. I would never think of telling you what to do. What we are trying to do, and that is why, when Councilor Cohen called me, I told him I would be delighted to come down here 'cause I feel 35 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS strongly that this is not just a one-city issue. And the concern I have when I chaired the Ways and Means Committee just last week and the Red Sox came in and made their case and their pitch for these huge dollars, millions of dollars of public money, or public revenue streams, what they use as excuse is that every other city does it so you should too. And what I say is, just 'cause John jumps off a bridge, it does not mean I have to follow him off the bridge as well. And these teams, these players, they do not have salary caps, they have -- and we love Pedro and we'll put him up against your pitchers any day of the week. But let me just say, we are not here to tell you what to do. What we are saying is, we feel public subsidies have to stop. We believe these deals can be done privately. And when they are done, they should be done with union labor. And in the case of our city -- and we're not here to tell you what you should do in your city; we are here to say we hope we can stand together as municipalities, saying that because we 36 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS have the kind of problems that my colleague Councilor Turner alluded to with education, with housing, with health care, with infrastructure, it is incumbent upon us first to help those, because then they can help themselves and further stimulate our economy. And we are not against stimulating the economy. For instance, in our neighborhood, we are for the first time in the history -- it's probably a hundred years -- building a brand-new neighborhood that will call for million square 13 feet of development, which I support -- 14
Let me ask you this question. I mean, this is all politics 101, I learned that at St. Joseph's when I went to night school there, after I, you know. You forgot the most important thing: All politics are local. BOSTON
This is local, this is us. And we appreciate you coming. Like Wilson said, you're not really needed here. If you want to go out and go to the Four Seasons afterwards, we'll show you the real side of Philadelphia. Maybe the Council -- the two Councilpeople that brought you down here have you up in something else in mind, but, you know. . . (Applause.) BOSTON
Well, Councilor, I'm not here for that purpose. I am here because I am trying to protect the tax base not only of the residents of my city --
Councilor, Councilor, maybe you could join the League of Cities.
Maybe you could join the League of Cities for that, and I appreciate it, but this is Philadelphia and this is what we're doing.
Excuse me, excuse me, Mr. Mariano. I think Councilman Rizzo is asking for a point of order. 38 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS
Thank you, Madam Chair. Councilors, you said you just found out yesterday that you were to come here today, and I hope that you weren't misled, I truly don't. But I really would like to know, and I asked for a point of order because I hope we can move on and change the tone. What motivated you to do this? I can't imagine you spending your money to come here. I just can't understand the motivation. I wouldn't think of coming to Boston to do what you two are doing here. I just -- I just don't understand the motivation, and if you could explain it, I'd appreciate that. BOSTON
Let me be very clear about my motivation. And that is that I've spent the last 30 years, not as a person in public office, but as a person working in the community, trying to change and improve conditions in a community that's primarily black and Latin. 39 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS And, unfortunately, what I see, both as a resident of that community and as a City Councilor, is that we are in a difficult situation in Boston. And as I look at other cities -- and I taught in a community economic development program at New Hampshire College that Horace Smalls and other people from the City of Philadelphia and other urban areas participate in to get their graduate degrees. As I'm looking at the situations in other urban areas, what I see is, we're in a very difficult situation in terms of our schools, in terms of the housing situation, and transportation. And what is particularly unfortunate is that I don't see help at the national level coming to the City of Boston, to the cities in Massachusetts that -- at the level that we need. And so given the scarcity of resources coming from the national level to the cities, to urban areas, I think those of us who are representing urban populations have to be the guardians of our city resources in a way that we perhaps haven't had to be in the past when there 40 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS were federal resources flowing more abundantly. We also don't have State resources in Massachusetts flowing in a very significant amount. And so we have to look at each dollar and how that dollar is being spent. Therefore, when this issue of building the Red Sox stadium came up, what I thought was a responsible position to take was to look at research on how those stadiums have affected economically the other urban areas. You know, look at the experience that other people have had in order to determine whether the spending of public money on the stadiums really was a sensible response for a City Councilor. As I looked at the data and as I looked at research, what was really astounding was that city after city where I have looked at the stadiums and, you know, just kind of looked at the teams and the stadiums and thought everything was wonderful, as I began to look at the economics, what you see is the other teams are wonderful, the stadiums are doing well, but the cities are declining. Educational systems are being taken over by the state in St. Louis and in Cleveland 41 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS because they -- the city can't run them effectively in situations where they're investing in ballparks and in teams that are doing very well. That doesn't make sense. I have no ability to say what's going on in Philadelphia, but given what I've seen in the research that I've done in looking at other cities where they have built these stadiums with strong public subsidies, I have to say that it's bad public in terms of the old practice. And the only reason I'm down here today is to say to look at the research that people are doing. And when you look at that research, I think you will begin to have some of the same concerns that we have in Boston. Perhaps not because you're in Philadelphia. But what we urge you to do is look at what has happened to city after city, where they've made these public investments and where today, the situation for the people of these cities are worse, where the owners of those teams are better.
Thank you, Councilman. 42 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS BOSTON
If I could just briefly as well. I want to be very clear that Councilman Cohen when he extended that Councilman Cohen, when he extended the invitation to me, as well as Councilor Ortiz, were very candid, that they were the two strong votes in opposition, that they felt -- and, again, although they say all politics -- every city is different, politics from city to city is probably very, very similar. And in our own body, we do not have unanimous support for opposing it. So we have people who are for, we have people who are against, and then you also have people who are in between. And sometimes people don't always feel comfortable coming out front right away, sometimes they need a little bit more information, sometimes they need the kind of details and kind of the expertise that has been done by -- for instance, in our city, in Boston, Citizens Against Stadium Subsidies, and they have a wealth of information. And when we told them we were coming down here today, they just wanted to let you know, should you desire, information that they have available 43 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS to help you make your decision, they are more than happy to supply it. I understand -- and I spoke yesterday with Dr. Zimbalist and I understand -- from what he told me, he testified and provided information to you. Dennis Zimmerman, who is a senior analyst for the Congressional Budget Committee, actually analyzed our legislation. He does that upon request, so if that is something that you would like him to do for you, you can request him to have that. So we are really here to try to be a resource, not to tell you what to do. But just so that you're very clear, I was under no impression that this was something that was unanimously supported as far as opposition by the Philadelphia City Council. But what I was hoping is that we could share the experience and the process that we have been going through the past months to try to act responsibly as far as we are concerned in our city and, hopefully, see, because this is not just a Boston issue, this is a national issue, and we know we cannot do it alone, because major league baseball and the individual sports teams, they do 44 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS have those resources, but if they're not asked for them, they certainly aren't going to volunteer them. Thank you.
Councilman Mariano, are you finished with your line of questioning?.
Maybe this is statements more to Councilman Cohen and Councilman Ortiz. Next time don't surprise us. You could have saved the people the air fare. You know, come on, you come here in the morning and you're surprised. (Applause.)
It's not an insult. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) 45 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS
Either we have your attention and we respect each other. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) (Councilman Cohen stands up, addresses audience members off-mic.) (Audience members boo.)
Councilman, Councilman Cohen, Councilman Cohen. Councilman, please, please.
Excuse me, Councilman. If there is another outburst, I will recess this hearing and it's only going to hurt the project and we will never be able to make a determination by December 14th. I ask you all to be very cooperative, please. The Chair now recognizes Councilman Cohen.
Thank you, Madam President. I just want the people sitting behind here to know that the person you're booing is the person who spent his lifetime in support of labor 46 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS organizations. There has never been a City Councilman in the history of the City of Philadelphia who has fought for labor harder or longer or been more in the trenches for labor than I have been. And I just want you to know that. So when you boo, boo loudly. (Audience members boo.)
I'm sorry. I don't think I've made myself very clear. We are not going to tolerate this. Either you cooperate or I'm going to recess. I mean that sincerely.
If we're going to have Councilpeople intimidating the audience, this is going to happen.
What do you mean, Councilpeople intimidating the audience --
Well, Councilman, you can't play it both ways here. The people in the audience --
This is the man who 47 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS called me a vampire.
Nobody's calling you anything, Councilman. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
Councilwoman, my point is -- excuse me, could I have your attention. My point is, we come here day in day out. This is my fifth year here, all right?
Councilman, you're out of order, Councilman. You're out of order, okay?
Why can't we be out of order when you are? Now, let's be gentlemen about it. We can agree to disagree. Come on. Council President --
I don't think Councilmembers are supposed to be having 48 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS conversations between themselves.
Whatever you have to say, please direct the Chair. And with another outburst -- this is the last warning -- I'm going to recess.
Council President, my point is, we've been -- I've been coming here for five years, and we've let all kinds of groups in here and they've made all kinds of statements. And with different issues, some I've been for, some I've been against. I have never seen Councilpeople people stand up and intimidate the audience. But this works both ways. If a Councilperson -- and I'm not saying what particular Councilperson -- stands up and does this and then they boo and you clear the audience, we must be very careful about it. They need to be heard too, Council President.
We will respect each other. 49 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS
And to Councilmembers and people in the audience, and as I've said, this is a very important issue. We are -- we have crunch time here to consider this issue. If we recess today, we're not going to be able to meet our deadline. So that's on everybody here to make the determination whether we go forward or whether this issue simply dies. Councilman Cohen, you're next to be recognized.
Thank you, Madam President. I want to thank the two councilors from Boston. I want you to know you are in the United States, though it may seem as if you're not. It may be that you have the impression that Philadelphia wants to secede from the rest of the country, but really, we don't. There was a point in time when a portion of the City wanted to secede to something called "Liberty County," but that was successfully opposed. I think both councilors have expressed 50 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS views that are held by the overwhelming majority of the people in the City of Philadelphia. I think you've spoken really for the people of Philadelphia as well as for the City of Boston, because this matter is not going out on a referendum, but we know there are serious questions about whether the people of Philadelphia would support any public funding if they had an opportunity to vote one way or the other. It's also clear that in the last point that the Councilor made concerning the fact that the sports teams operate on a national basis, and what they do is play off one city against the other city and put us in competition, threaten to move, only because there's more money being made in one place, they have no loyalty to anyplace. The people in Philadelphia have tremendous needs in the neighborhoods, in the schools, in the housing, as both of you have spoken about. We in Philadelphia have the same problems. Philadelphia is like every other city with respect to the needs for infrastructure, for more support for police and for their facilities and for the fire people, for their facilities. 51 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS While we're spending over a billion dollars in the next 30 years, a billion dollars of tax money for the stadiums, the firemen who save our lives every day of the week are confronted with a health problem. And just yesterday, the City of Philadelphia pleaded that it didn't have the money to take care of the health needs of the fire people, went to court to throw out an arbitrator's decision, which said that the City has the responsibility for the involvement of so many firemen with hepatitis C. So you see that we have serious problems just as you have in Boston. I think it's great that you are here. And while you are here, I would like to ask you one question concerning eminent domain. I understand you had some experiences in that field. I would like to ask you what your feeling is about the use by City authorities with respect to eminent domain proceedings in matters where the public interests is really a masquerade, because while stadiums for sports are very important, I'd love to see every high school in Philadelphia have 52 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS a sports field, and most of them don't. While it's important in that regard, it certainly doesn't seem to be at the level of importance that would justify the use of public power to take property from people to convert it into public stadiums. Would you respond to that comment. BOSTON
Certainly, if I may, and I'm sure Councilor Turner will follow up. In the City of Springfield, there was a legal suit where Springfield built a sports facility and used public funds, took the land by eminent domain, and a lawsuit ensued, and it was found in the courts that it was illegal because a sports facility did not constitute a public purpose. Now, I am not an attorney. So what I would be more than happy to make available to you is the court decision. Our former corporation counsel for the City of Boston did an analysis of the law on that and the court decision, and he concurs that in our instance -- and, again, I can't speak to what would be the case in your 53 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS state or your city here. But in the instance of the City of Boston and the City of Springfield, he concurs that such a taking of eminent domain for the purposes of a sports facility was illegal. And what happened at that point is, they took the land, they took the businesses, and then they stopped them. And the City of Springfield had to pay huge restitution costs, and the stadium was not built. So I can't tell you that would pertain to what you are doing here, but what I will tell you is that our former corporation counselor who was hired by the activists in the Fenway neighborhood has reviewed that case and is very confident that our legislation would not withstand and, therefore, would be a violation of the law and is not a public purpose.
Thank you. I have no further questions. And, again, I express my deep gratitude and thanks for your understanding that all cities 54 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS are involved in this problem. BOSTON
Thank you. The chair now recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
I do not (inaudible) the benefit of exactly what's happening in Boston, so give me some background before I pursue my questions. How far along is Boston with regards to the reviewing of stadium proposals? Where are you? BOSTON
The project has been approved by the State legislature. The State legislature passed what they call "enabling legislation" that laid out guidelines for the development of a ballpark in Boston, including a commitment from the State for $100 million of 55 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS infrastructure investment. It's now up to the City of Boston to put together a package within the framework of the legislation passed by the State. The legislation does not have a time limit in terms of having to be completed by March of 2001. The Mayor has suggested that he will put a package before us perhaps in April, perhaps in May, perhaps in June of this coming year. But Council, because of our concern for people being clear where the Council stands on it, as soon as the State legislature approved the legislation authorizing the building of the park, filed an order that focussed on the issues of bonding public funds for the development of the stadium. We have had two hearings on those issues, and on this coming Wednesday, we are prepared to vote on the question of whether the Council is supportive of public funds being invested in the park. The way that legislature -- the way the bonding is handled in Boston is, you only need 5 of -- 5 of the 13 City Councilors to oppose it in order to stop bonding from going forward. At this 56 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS point, there are seven councilors who have said that they do not support the project going forward. And so we expect on Wednesday, there will be seven votes that will clearly -- from City Councilors, clearly showing that the majority of the City Councilors of Boston are opposed to the project going forward. That won't end the Mayor's opportunity to come back to us, but what we hope is that it will send a clear message to the investors and to the Red Sox that the Council is not ready to support the project as it has been framed by the State legislature.
So you're treating the issue of public investment apart and totally separate from a total stadium package where you get a chance to examine the pros and cons of a total stadium package, correct? BOSTON
We're taking this action focused on the question of the value of public investments. In terms of the investments, in terms of the investments that will be made in the community, that is clear: That is that the State has proposed $100 million in 57 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS infrastructure that would come into the area of the Fenway that -- to where the park would be built. And that essentially would be the benefits to the community.
So following that particular approach, you will never have an opportunity to examine a scenario of what if you do stadiums, what the public benefit potentially may be and compare that against what if you do not do stadiums and what the long-term public benefit may be. BOSTON
The Mayor actually will have an opportunity next year to present an expanded package, to present a package developed by the City in terms of how he would propose the stadium going forward. His package would be framed, however, within the confines of the State legislation, so that he does not have total latitude in terms of what we can bring before the City Council, because the State legislature has already set up the framework that will guide the development of the park. If that's helpful.
The one thing you 58 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS may want to be aware of is that in our approach in examining this complex economic development issue, we were presented both scenarios, and that has helped us in trying to determine what we all want to do, and that is, strike a delicate balance between public investment and public benefit. BOSTON
Now, we have to agree with you that there are a range of other issues that should be given priority with regards to public investment, but right now, what is before us at this hour of the next ten days are stadiums. And recognizing that everything comes with a price and nothing is free in America, we are again confronted with the challenge of trying to ensure that the City gets public benefit. Now, you mentioned that you've done a lot of analysis on what has happened with other stadiums being built in cities. Have you had a chance to look at the public benefit that has been yielded from the building of new stadiums in those cities, apart and separate from the public investment, the public benefit? BOSTON
The article 59 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS that I quoted from earlier called the by Dennis Coates and Brad Humphrey is probably the most comprehensive study that tried to look at that. That is -- they're economists at the University of Maryland, so they did an economic analysis of the benefits that flowed from the investment in the stadiums. And as I quoted, their reaction was that there really -- they couldn't determine a significant investment, a public growth based upon the public investment in the stadiums. That is, when they looked at the economic analysis of what happened after the stadiums were built and measured that against the amount of monies that the cities were putting in, they couldn't determine that there was, in fact, an economic benefit to the area, either on a per capita basis or to the area as a whole from those investments in those 37 cities that they examined. That's why we're suggesting that it really would be helpful to look at their study, because they tried to -- they tried to do the analysis, I think, that you are raising questions about, really looking at what was the investment, 60 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS what happened from the investment, and then can we say that there was really a growth in revenues for individuals and for the region as a whole from that public investment? And their conclusion is no. 7 And all we can do is suggest that all of you take a look at that and then think about how the conclusions that they come to, based on those 37 cities, related to your situation here in Philadelphia, and that will help you be clear in terms of the very hard decisions that you have to make.
Well, I'm compelled to then re-ask Councilman Goode's question. In all of those 37 cities, did any of them yield 49 percent participation of MBE/WBE activity? BOSTON
I can't say, although understanding Mayor Smoke (ph.) down in Baltimore and his zealous pursuit of the economic benefits for the African-American community, I would imagine there were significant benefits that came from those projects but -- and Cleveland, I would imagine, but I don't have the details on 61 12/2/2000 WHOLE - STADIUM BILLS that.
In any of the assessment of those 37 cities, did any one of them yield public benefit for children and youth? BOSTON