COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:15 p.m. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR., CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN QUETCY M. LOZADA, VICE-CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN KENDRA BROOKS COUNCILWOMAN JAMIE GAUTHIER COUNCILMAN JIM HARRITY COUNCILMAN ISAIAH THOMAS COUNCILMAN JEFFREY YOUNG, JR. ALSO PRESENT:
Good afternoon, everyone. We're going to get started. This is a public hearing on the Committee of Public Safety to review Bill No. 240010. Mr. Glass, will you please read the title of the ordinance.
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Bill No. 240010, amending Chapter 9-5900 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Prohibition on Certain Gambling Machines and Skills Games," to add additional prohibitions and provide remedies, all under certain terms and conditions.
I will note that we have a quorum of the Public Safety Committee represented by Member Brooks, Member Harrity, Member Gauthier, Member Lozada and myself. So we are officially open for business. Before we get started, I would like to, if you will indulge me, kind of talk about how we got here. In 2011 I'm thinking it was, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania saw fit to want to explore illegal gambling casinos in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And what I remember at that time, Members, is that we had over two dozen hearings to talk about how they can open, how they should be operated, what type of security should be with that in order to make it safe for communities. I remember going to many of those hearings and painstakingly going through item-by-item, line-by-line on how they should govern their affairs. In 2017 there was an amendment to it, which would allow skilled games to actually operate at rest stops, truck stops in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. They had certain provisos that covered parking, the number of parking that was there, the amount of distance between other communities and they went into effect, but there were many in the industry that saw that as a green light to invade Philadelphia County, the City of Philadelphia in neighborhoods. And what we hoped for was hope from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania on how they should be regulated, how they should be taxed, how they should be licensed, how many calibrations should happen to determine winners and what their payouts should be. We got none of that. So we kicked the can down the road until we passed or we introduced an ordinance to take cities of the first class, Philadelphia in particular, on how we govern these machines. So what I had hoped for in this hearing was to be able to answer certain questions, how many machines are in Philadelphia, where are they located, what is the payout ratio per dollar put in, per receipt for winners, what's the security apparatus involved, how close can they be to public schools. And unfortunately, we will get none of those answers because we don't regulate them. And I take it as a point of somewhat disrespect to the City of Philadelphia -- recognizing Member Thomas has joined us -- that they go where they want, set up where they want and do not tell us where they are. And in addition to this concern, we don't tax them. We have things that we have to fund every year, whether it's affordable housing, whether it's education, whether it's crime and public safety, all of which we have projected over the five-year course of budgeting deficit. So we don't know what we don't know by way of revenues that come into the City of Philadelphia. But I have some encouraging news: Governor Shapiro had captured the interest of this industry and is proposing a 42 percent taxation on these machines and we talk to members, our colleagues, at the State level and the Senate and in the House about how cities of the first class can determine these machines' locations, hours of operation. There is a terrain research -- what is it, Mr. Glass?
Risk terrain management, which is one of the items in the public Blueprint for a Safer Philadelphia. And what it talks about is not the who, who committed the crime, but where the crime was committed. I will note that we had a shooting involving two officers and a suspect, suspect passed away. I believe it was either in your District or in Member Young's District. And then about three days later we had in my District a shooting that resulted in a murder in a corner store again. What do these two instances have in common? Both of them had skills games being operated. What we tend to find is that people that do other things occupy these locations and in effect pay rent. When asked why are you there, what reason do you have, are you buying a loaf of bread? No, I'm playing the machines. And that is a form of allowing them to not be trespassing. So these are questions that we need answers to. As a municipality, we are not against commerce and business. We are for it being regulated correctly, and this is what this hearing is about today. As we move these possibilities forward -- and one other item. Many people ask, well, what happens if the State comes in and introduces legislation that could potentially supersede what we do here in City Council? Well, I will clap slowly for them because it's about damn time. And we've been kicking the can down the road too long and almost to a degree that these operators believe that they don't have to answer to the City of Philadelphia. Well, that ends today. I would like to offer an opportunity for any of the members of this Committee to make a statement. (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you for your attendance. Mr. Glass, who do we have for the first panel to testify.
Mr. Chairman, our first panel is Philadelphia Police Commissioner Kevin Bethel and Deputy Commissioner Fran Healy. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Welcome, gentlemen. Both of you are not new to this process. But in your official capacity, Commissioner, welcome. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Good afternoon.
Please begin. Proceed with your testimony. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I'll just do the introductions. My name is Deputy Commissioner Fran Healy. I'm here with obviously Commissioner Bethel. Our testimony is actually on the record already in support of this bill, including the amendments thereto. The Commissioner wanted to speak today and make comments as to the bill personally for his own personal beliefs. But our testimony is on the record and has already been submitted. With that, I introduce Commissioner Bethel.
That is a wise use of your rank. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Well, you know, it's always good having as your Chief of Staff who's an attorney and who is always here. But I just wanted to come, my comments are brief. But I wanted to come first and foremost to thank the Committee for their work in bringing forth a bill that helps us as we go about our work. As you know, my charge under the Mayor is really to address the quality-of-life issues that impact our community, the nuisance locations that impact our community and the like, right. So part of my purpose being here today is to stand along with Fran to make sure it's understood how much I appreciate the Committee willing to lean into this space. For somebody who's been in law enforcement for 38 years, I've watched the devastating impact that we've had, whether it be alcohol introduced into our communities or the stop-and-gos, whether it be the other gambling machines that we had and that are slot machines that we would see in our space. We also have looked at the drugs that have come into our community, particularly when we have the corner stores as you indicated have been a gathering spot and often times have led to a significant level of violence in those locations. And so, we can no 25 longer sit here and allow -- we can talk about drugs being entered into my community as a kid and we understand the addiction that it has brought with it. We have seen the alcohol that's come into our marginalized communities and we've seen the alcoholism that has come with that. So we introduced gambling machines into our community and don't expect that we're going to have issues with gambling and addiction to that as well. And so, those things that are happening in our community are significant. The violence that we see around our stores when we have these gatherings, as you know particularly in some of our more violent pockets and then just adding another ingredient to that space has not helped our work. And I'm so proud as I joined the organization, back in the organization, to see the work that Commissioner Healy and our Nuisance Task Force working in collaboration with many of the individuals here to really, really start to focus on those nuisance locations and focus on those things that impact our community each and every day. And so, I just wanted to come here again to thank the Committee for your work to lean forward, to get ahead of the things that are happening and not just waiting for the response and see the downstream. You've seen it anecdotally, and we'll start to look at the data to see how things are going forward. But I just wanted to bring that information forward and say that I'm here, and I want the community to know we're taking these matters seriously. Those things that impact those communities, the Mayor has very clearly indicated the quality-of-life issues are not acceptable and we're going to be doing everything possible as my take over the organization to make sure we listen to the community and listen to the issues that they are raising on a daily basis.
First of all, thank you. And you've leaned in both when you got sworn and announced your new position in Kensington, in the heart of some of the most challenging neighborhoods in Philadelphia. One of the things with the terrain modeling we've noted, and you can see parts of it in the 52nd Block study where there is a propensity for increased violence, you will find stores that have these types of machines operating in them. And what you find is not one thing. It's a preponderance of a lot of things. One, when you sell loosie cigarettes, B, when you sell liquor by the drink, C, when you have these kinds of gambling machines, it almost creates a watering hole for prey. And for them to not have to go far because eventually people will come to them. And we are concerned as to, A, keep track of that through the Nuisance Business Task Force. If someone is operating a business and one of these things happens but if in addition to that, violence, robbery, firearms, gun violence, we want to know and we want to kind of move in on that to improve the quality of life in our neighborhoods. We introduced a bill -- good God, none of you were here, I'm getting old -- where we asked for merchants to actually -- it was the Good Samaritan piece, Josh, where we wanted store owners to take a greater responsibility about what happened in and around their stores to protect their customers. That was met with a lot of opposition, a lot of opposition. And I kind of understand it. It is not their job to want to jump into the fray to make sure that -- Member O'Rourke, how are you, sir. Welcome.
That we didn't want to jump in -- and, Member Young, I see you.
To jump into the midst of being police officers, but that exchange of information via conversations with the police or with cameras that were affixed, a lot of people didn't want to do it because they were afraid. When we talked to -- we were at the Governor's Budget Address, Commissioner, and members from outside of Philadelphia that were State Reps and Senators said, well, quite frankly, what is Philly going to do for Philly, what are we going to step up and do to protect our own neighborhoods. And so, in a way this answers in part that question. So tell me how is the Nuisance Business Task Force tracking these kinds of activities. I think it was a surprise to me when I attended your meeting how specific you guys are organized. Can you share that with the members of this Committee? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: If I may. As you know in November of this past year, we pushed forth out from the Nuisance Business Unit that we have a tracker. 9-4400 of the Code is very specific as to first, second, third letters of notification as well as the critical nuisances. So we need to come up with a system to better track that so we can help assist the captains in the field. So that's in play now. Two weeks ago understanding that this is much bigger, we need to put more things into this tracker so we can track them better. We've had a meeting maybe two or three weeks ago with the OIT folks about expanding the scope of that tracker to put more information into it and track it more effectively, so we can basically CompStat the data. We can put that data up on a spreadsheet -- or not a spreadsheet, on a screen so we can actually see what's happening in each location. Some of the other things we want to track is not just these machines, but also I think it's 9-206 -- don't quote me on the quote -- it's those businesses doing repairs on City streets. A lot of businesses, specifically in the 12th District and some other districts and the 26th, that's a big problem. So we're looking to make sure that we track all this information into this tracker to make sure that, in fact, we are keeping track of it, but obviously that we're taking the appropriate action and coordinating with the captain. We do have a centralized unit, but that does not mean we'll just dump it on the centralized unit. We're there to assist the captains to do what they need to do, so we're working in tandem to make sure we use all our energies with a sort of synergy so we're actually doing more with less people, which we all have to do. But the tracker will be revised and it's being revised now. We asked for them to include all the issues that the Nuisance Enforcement Unit actually touches upon to make sure all those elements are included into the tracker, not just 9-4400. That's in the works as of about three weeks ago. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: And if I could add to that. Even today I met with our Mapping Team after our crime briefing. We're able to start mapping those locations, so we're starting to put those on the map, which will be very important for us because during our crime briefing where we're working through the process, our commanders will be able to pull those locations up and see exactly the kind of activity we're seeing around those locations which will help us as we move forward with the data.
Yeah, the place is as important as who commits the crime. Whether we talk about mass transit or other places, we need to know where it's happening so that we can deploy resources to prevent it. So I appreciate us all working together to try to figure this out. Public safety looks different in different neighborhoods and in different businesses, but there's a recurring theme that statistics tend not to lie. And where we start to see this preponderance of activity, we want to allocate the right resources to prevent it. Any questions?
Thank you so much for your testimony, Commissioner Bethel. I have a couple of questions: One, do we have a sense of how many businesses have these skills games? I know you said we're creating a map, but do we have sort of a global sense? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, we do not have that at this point.
Okay. From an implementation standpoint -- and I do support this legislation. We have a ton of these businesses. But from an implementation standpoint, do we have a method of sort of proactively notifying these businesses in the event that this law goes through, and will we do that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: The issue right now as of the last vote on this, it was pocket-vetoed, so this issue is still in a little bit of a limbo. But what we are doing with these businesses in the interim, and thanks to City Council for the 9-44 amendments that you made forth, they give us a lot more tools to play with. And probably the most important one is the critical nuisance. That means if a violent crime happens on location, we can actually take immediate action to move on the license. In the course of that -- now, we understand some places are legitimate places, just a bad thing happened at a good place. So what we've really put in place in the Nuisance Unit is we'll do a preliminary investigation on every incident that has a -- a business that meets the definition of serious shooting, homicide, rape or aggravated assault. And in the course of that, if we identify -- not only if we identify the machines that are in the location, but also we'll notify if they are a stop-and-go that doesn't have enough seats. We're going to use all that information as best we can to go against the license. So we'll give them notification that as part of the resolution for the critical nuisance that they have to enter an abatement plan. Part of that abatement plan what we started doing is requiring them to remove the machines out of the place, so that will be part of the abatement plan. Now, they have to do that voluntarily at this point because right now they're technically not illegal until we vote on this bill.
I think I'm asking something different. If we're mapping or tracking businesses that have these skills games, when -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Well, let me be clear. We're not tracking -- there's no way for us to track these machines where they're located. They're in everywhere. They've proliferated not just in Philadelphia but across the state due to the illegal ambiguity since 2016. They're everywhere. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: My statement was to nuisance properties overall, not specific to the gaming at this point. Just to the nuisance properties that we identified.
I understand. I think what I'm putting out there is if this legislation is to pass, is there a way or should we proactively try to notify businesses that this law is passed, this is now illegal so that they can take action on their own as opposed to waiting until something happens and having to come up with an abatement plan? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Absolutely. We 100 percent agree that there should be a period of awareness. Many of the business people have no idea that that is an issue for them. And so, I would definitely believe that there should be some kind of imperative time where they would be notified before the law is officially enacted.
Thank you. And last thing I wanted to say is I wholeheartedly support the tracker being updated with these sort of nuisance repair shops that are doing repairs on the street. We have a lot of those in my District. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yeah. And I think, Councilwoman, that's just a -- definitely. I mean, the fact that people take that as -- again, it's an area where people think the community doesn't care until you have to watch the oil being washed down your street and you're stepping in oil because somebody's dropped oil all over the street or just left those items on the highway and kept going, so 100 percent. So we're going to really lean into all of those issues, that as well, because we think it's a continuum, just a gradual continuum of layers of things that are happening in our community that we're not taking action on. And those are the things that are impacting these communities on a daily basis. So some people that say, oh, it's just a great thing. They don't realize the aftermath of what happens when somebody drops 5 gallons of oil on the street and think it's supposed to wash away on its own. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Before I call on my colleague for the next question, let me just mention that I think that part of the work that we need to also be doing is communicating with our Commerce Department who managed some of the commercial corridors in different neighborhoods because they are on the front line and they see every day how some of these establishments are detrimental to some of our commercial corridors, not just our neighborhoods, right, not just our everyday corner stores and the residents, but to commercial corridors. And so, I think that if we're going to start to gather information about where some of these establishments are, working with our Commerce Department who manage some of these commercial corridors where many of these businesses pop up overnight sometimes, some as quickly as within a two-week period, right, we need to make sure that they are a part of this process, not only so that if this becomes law but so that they can help us gather some of the information around where they are. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yes, ma'am.
Thank you. Can you hear me? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yes, sir. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Yes, sir.
Just a couple of questions. I know you're making a database now. Are there any numbers so far on robberies outside these places because in my neighborhood it happens quite often but isn't always reported? So I know of one instance where a neighbor of mines, a senior was in a store. She put a lot of money in there and finally hit the machine. They paid her. She got about a half a block away and the young guys robbed her. So I would like to see any kind of numbers that we have on that kind of stuff besides just the outright violent. What kind of theft is going on around that area that may not necessarily be getting put to that business but is related to that business? Did you get that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: The answer, we'll do the best we can. The motive of the robbery is a little hard for us from a statistical perspective to identify, but it's not saying it's impossible. We'll do our best to try to track the motives and see if to track whether or not we can find patterns or trends specifically associated with these machines, per se. Because a lot of times if you notice, they're in the heart of some other crime and disorder so it's very hard --
Oh, absolutely. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: -- to distinguish that was really the driver. But I think as was mentioned before, it's a combination of the above. So if we start whittling it down, we can hopefully make an impact. But we'll do the best we can to try to figure that out with our data people.
Okay. Thank you. That's all I have. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Can I just make one comment to Councilmember Lozada? You mentioned Commerce. Just so you're aware, we do meet regularly with the Nuisance Task Force that's run by actually the Mayor's Office now through Kristin Bray. Commerce is always a part of that meeting so they're always included in everything that we're discussing as we move forward.
(Inaudible) -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We really can't hear you.
Oh, you can't hear me. All right. Can you hear me now? Hello. Okay. Yeah, I have questions about enforcement. How will it be enforced? I know you talked about tracking and identifying. But how will we -- after Councilmember Gauthier talked about notification, legislation passed, what does enforcement look like? And then also, will there be penalties for users for machines once this enforcement happens in a nuisance property? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: When it comes to the nuisance in my written testimony I was very honest. We have to do an undercover investigation to see whether or not there's a payout. It's not just the mere presence of the machines. So it will take some work. Okay. I'm not going to lie. Our Vice Unit is best-suited for these types of investigations. We have to do the planning, the execution, the deconfliction. But we're looking to prioritize only those places that are really driving our problems so we can focus our resources and have the most impact. That's the best that I see that we're going to be able to enforce. But when we do enforce it and hold these people accountable, we don't actually seize the machines. Under the ordinance, they get I believe a $2,000 fine for every machine. So that's a substantial fine once we do identify the information. But it will be a challenge. I'm not going to lie. It will be a challenge to do the enforcement on a lot of the areas because they're going to know who's from the neighborhood and who's not in the neighborhood coming in and trying to do an undercover investigation. But we'll work with other partners. We have state and other partners that we can tap into for resources to help us.
Okay. I'm trying to process this. So someone -- you would send an undercover, so to say, to use a machine and you can't do anything until there's a payout. So you can't until they take the slip. So when they take the slip, they have violated the law and then the undercover would have to -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Basically that's correct. That's the pur -- the machine itself is not illegal. It's the payout of them.
It's the payout of the machine. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: So for us we have to see that or witness it or have some type of video to prove it.
Okay. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: And we have a Vice team that does that work now and had done that in the past. It's just building that out to incorporate that into the work that they're doing now. If we have to build out the capacity to meet that demand, then we will.
Okay. And that also includes -- what's the other thing we talked about -- liquor-by-the-drink, is that the same way that enforcement is happening? Some of the establishments may have the gambling machines as well as you can go buy a shot behind the bar? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yes.
I mean, behind the counter, the beer store or whatever. So that has to be enforced, that's the same level of enforcement for that as well? You have to send someone, they have to make the purchase, identify it's illegal and then you guys are able to enforce? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I'm not sure I heard you. Are you talking about other gaming machines, if they're illegal?
I'm talking about with the Nuisance Task Force as a whole, like other violations may occur in some of these establishments. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
Is it the same process across the board so you can hit somebody for multiple violations related to the Nuisance Task Force? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Yes. The nuisance -- the way that 9-4400 was amended, if certain violations occur, we use that as the basis for moving into the license. It can be anything, a combination of public disorderly conduct, whatever the case may be. As long as there's a nexus to the business, that's called a chronic nuisance. We have three of those within a year, then we send the business a notice of intent to cease. And then they have a responsibility to reach out to us to try to resolve the problem. If they don't resolve the problem within so many days, then we move forward with L&I against the license. With the critical nuisance, if something serious happens, we don't need three strikes. Basically we can move with that one incident and individuals need to come out and work with us to come up with an abatement plan. That's why we do the preliminary investigation upfront. Like I said and respectfully, Macy's. Macy's technically fell within the definition of a critical nuisance, but we all know it's not a critical nuisance. But how do I distinguish Macy's from some other store. So we wanted to make sure we put a light -- and actually this is -- we met after the Macy's incident to see how and make sure we'd be fair and consistent on how we enforce across the City. And that's why we now do the preliminary investigation once that incident happens. And then we're looking to see if there's anything that the business owner is doing or not doing that helped facilitate or cause that type of behavior to happen on their location. And if that's the case, then we're moving forward with an intent to cease.
Thank you, Vice-Chair Lozada. Who's next? Member Young.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Another follow-up question on enforcement: If this bill were to pass and become law, do you feel this is an enforcement issue for the police or more for Licenses & Inspections to enforce? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: It can be by both. I mean, and that's the important thing about the bill the way it's drafted. We all have limited resources. When we can come together, we can actually work as a team. L&I is part of the Nuisance Task -- or not Task Force but Nuisance Committee with the City. So we work in tandem in making sure the resources -- so we often every month by policy we'll do what's called a walkaround, I don't know if that's the right word for it, but we'll identify corridors that have nuisance businesses or properties and even some that don't in the mix and we'll go up and down, and that's where Inspector Ritchie from our Nuisance Unit works with L&I, Health, and everybody will go up and down. Basically it's kind of a warning thing making sure everybody is on the same page doing the right thing. But those people that aren't in compliance, it's an opportunity for us -- they can be cited by L&I, Health. We use that as also the community sees us out there as a whole as a team working together, so we work hand-in-hand with L&I all the time and they're a great partner.
I'm sorry. How successful are you all when you go out with L&I and you actually are able to talk to some of these people, right, because some of the experiences that I have heard is that when the inspector or when the police department go into these establishments, the individual is not able to communicate with you because of a language barrier? How successful are you all in communicating with them? How often have you all found that when you walk into these establishments they're operating with a grocery store license as opposed to a gaming type of license, if there's even one, right, because I've asked before what type of license is an appropriate license for some of these establishments who don't have food, who their food is a cup of soup that you warm up in a microwave or there are no household products that they're offering so it's not a real grocery store. It's actually a gaming store, but they're operating off a grocery store license which does not allow them to be open hours a day, right, in an 80 percent residential neighborhood? How successful are you in addressing those issues when you're going out in the community now? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: It's a little double prong there. The issue -- let me just step back and talk about the 9-4400 and the success we have with that. When the nuisance happens around locations, we have to give a first letter to the business owner informing them that there's a problem. We've been incredibly successful with that first letter going out saying, business owner, you got a problem, you need to fix it, you could lose your license. And that was really the driving factor why we created the tracker, because we were so successful with those first letters but we had no 2 way to track it. I mean, the only thing we were tracking was the negative outcomes when something had to be ceased. And actually a lot of businesses who were in compliance, a lot of them are either they're not directly owned or they're not operated by the owner or they're operated by agents or managers and they're not aware of what's going on, so that's been incredibly successful. Now, when you're talking about the businesses that are operating basically as a sham is what you're talking about, it's using it for other purposes, when it comes to the liquor license stuff with the 30 chairs, the requirement for the 30 chairs, that's your whole stop-and-go issue. They're supposed to have 30 chairs on those locations. And if not, it's a violation of state law. So we're looking -- when we do these walkabouts, that's some of the things we're picking up. We walk in, we gather that information. LCB and the Pennsylvania Control Enforcement are with us when we do these things, so we work in tandem. Now, for your specific issue of a grocery store is really not a grocery store, we would look into that. And if we got the complaint, we would look into that one specifically because technically what are they doing wrong if they're just not selling anything. They have the license but they're not selling anything. We know they're up to something but what is that. So we would look into that further as a team with L&I, Health Department, especially if they have a health license. So we target -- we don't target, that's not an appropriate word. But we identify and look into those places when we get information from your offices or anybody's office. So if you have a specific location, let me know and we'll put it on our list and have somebody look into it immediately. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: And I just want to emphasize, Fran has obviously been leading that and he's been the expert and I'm just kind of just coming back in this space, but I do want to note and want the Committee to know that as we move forward, we're going to be much more seeped into this space.
We're going to start to get the synergy around this work because we know this is impacting the community and these are the calls that are coming into your office on a daily basis. And so, we know we're going to be working across departmental, all of the agencies to make sure we're responding. They've done a great job doing that now, but we're really going to elevate this work as we build our new community partnership bureau of our work that will nestle under that space where we're going to bring all of that energy together to make sure we're moving effectively to address these issues.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I understand from the testimony that because of the Commonwealth Court ruling that says that these machines are not illegal, we're kind of taking control of our own destiny and we've developed this system where we would send in these undercover cops and only be able to really enforce when there's a payout. Am I understanding that correctly? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: That's correct.
Okay. I think it's good that we're taking charge in that way while we're hoping for an appeal, but I have a question around capacity because it sounds like intense work. So I wanted to ask how many people do we have in the Vice Unit that would be devoted to this type of work and how many people in Neighborhood Services would be able to also augment that work knowing that the Neighborhood Service officers do a ton of stuff like remove abandoned autos, right, that we also need them to do. So what's our current capacity? And if it's not sufficient, how do we need to grow our capacity to be able to implement this effectively? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: So that's a great question, Councilwoman. Right now without getting into the specific staffing issues, we know that we're down in staffing across the board. But my position as I've taken on this position, we have a multi-prong organization now. There's no 11 longer one officer just doing one thing.
Okay. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: So the way we're going to be addressing these issues, so I'll take you into the 35th District and the captain aide is doing everything, nuisance houses, nuisance corners, all of that. And so, we see the path moving forward is not just this entity Vice Unit is the only one able to do that kind of activity. We're going to have officers that work within those areas to be able to do that work as well. There's nothing precluding them from a policy perspective to do that. And as our staffing has attrited, we're looking at Kevin Bethel may be a three-faceted entity now. He does everything, but not just doing the police work, but he is doing quality-of-life issues. He or she is doing those other things that we need to get done. I will not allow our staffing issues to be the impediment for us doing the work. We have to get back doing the work of policing and doing the work of the community they ask us to do. And so, we're going to use a multitude of ways to do that. Yes, Vice is a component of that, but they can train other people to do Vice work. So part of what we're doing now as we understand that much of the special unit work that we did in special units are now going to be trained to those men and women in the field so they can do those operations as well. You don't have to have Neighborhood Services most recently to have cars towed out of a neighborhood for abandoned auto. They can teach other officers, and they've done that most recently. And so, we see that as a vast number of opportunities to train the men and women in the field to do the quality-of-life and nuisance work as well as doing their 911 response work.
And could this also be something that the civilian officers that we're hiring could do? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I don't know this level of work. I -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Are you referencing the public safety enforcement officers?
Yes. Thank you. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: They've been a great help. There's some barriers, legal barriers. But for the most part, they're an incredible help for us because what they're doing is we have a very large backlog that we've whittled down quite a bit, but those officers are actually going out to help identify those cars. So they're working with the Abandoned Vehicle Unit to help get those cars off the street quickly so they are actually --
I mean, not just cars. I love that we're removing more abandoned autos. But I mean this bill 23 specifically. Could the public safety officers, would they also be able to share in this work to grow our capacity? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: I think that probably exceeds the scope of their job. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I would not put them in harm's way. I mean, there's a possibility -- just like any time you're taking a policing type interaction, even something as small as being in a gaming shop going undercover doing a -- could lead to some type of violent episode. So I would say sitting here today without doing a full assessment, I would say I would not put them in that kind of harm's way because of the potential harm that could come to them and they're not armed.
On my way in today, stopped at Bryn Mawr and Wynnefield at a gas station. Went in, paid for my gas. There were machines in full operation. 7 Not everybody was at every -- 8 there's a photo. And I thought of 9 Atlantic City without a payout for 10 the City. I thought of Atlantic 11 City without an escort for a winner to go to their car. I thought of Atlantic City without knowing what the ratio -- if you buy bologna at the Acme, there's weights and measures that come out to make sure that the weight that you're paying for is accurate. We don't do any of that for this industry, and I just think the time has come. I don't want to see an Eliot Ness-style approach to this. I like the notifications, the letters. And then the license issue without coming in and we're confiscating this and that, we don't need that. What we need is a firm hand to let them know that this isn't worth it. And that if the industry wants to come into compliance, then let's figure it out. Let's figure out where they're supposed to be, where they're not supposed to operate. The hours of operation might be included. I was just given that instruction by one of the people to testify today. It's a helpful kind of addition. Member Driscoll wants to make VFWs a safe place for these machines. And I think anywhere, whether the traditional bar and tavern where you're checking for people's ID anyway to make sure that they're legally able to drink is a more secured environment than the kids on their way to school, got their lunch money and say, I'm going to get lucky today and put my lunch money in this machine and go hungry the rest of the day. So we need to put our arms around this. And I'm so thankful to have partners in the police force and the task force to assist us in figuring it out. So thank you very much. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Thank you.
If there are no other questions for this panel, thank you for your testimony. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Thank you. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, our next witness is State Representative Amen Brown. (Witness approached Witness table.)
Representative, welcome. How are you, sir? STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Good. How y'all doing?
State your name for the record and please begin your testimony. STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: I am State Representative Amen Brown. I represent the 10th Legislative District of Pennsylvania, which is Logan Square in West Philadelphia. So first and foremost, I want to say thank you guys for addressing this quality- of-life issue. This is something that my office gets several calls and complaints about. So thank you to all of the sponsors. I know we have a lot of issues along 52nd Street which I share with Councilmember Gauthier, and this is a real problem. It hurts me that seniors used to be able to go to their corner store and purchase a loaf of bread or use the ATM machine to pay their rent or so forth and so on. But now, due to these machines their lives are impacted. And that turns into late rent payments because the closest ATM is not in reach anymore because you have several individuals who stand in these stores surveiling what goes on, on these machines in ski masks and so forth just waiting for their next victim. They're waiting for someone to hit. A lot of the crime that might be being committed is not getting reported because they might be robbing their opposition, as they call them. But all this turns into problems in each and every community in Philadelphia and across the Commonwealth. About a year and a half ago, almost two years ago I met with the skills games individuals. I attended an informative session that they had for Statehouse members in Harrisburg. And I listened to everything that they said but also heard what they didn't say. And they're in it for profit. As you just mentioned, this is not something that's being taxed for the state or the City. And these things came about I believe in the beginning of COVID when they hit our City the hardest. And during the height of all the federal or state assistance to our constituents, the money went into the pockets of the owners of these machines. And I get it. For the business owners who are present today who think that these machines are helping you, they're not. They draw in nothing but bad things, and they're taking the little bit that our constituents have, whether it's $75 dollars or $5. They're putting it into this machine and they're losing it. And then they have to come to our offices for assistance because now they're late on their rent or they're being evicted or they have a shut-off notice or their utilities are already being shut off because their last whatever went into this machine and they were hoping that they hit big, and that's not what's happening.
Question: There's a store, 56th and Arch I guess -- STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Yes. You have 56th and Arch, 56th and Market.
-- that is one of the hot spots that I know of where things happen, homicides, robberies. Is there a gambling machine in there? STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Absolutely.
I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me because it creates a water hole kind of mentality. STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Yes.
And can you tell us what's happening at the state level on these machines? STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: So our Governor Josh Shapiro, he just proposed -- well, he charged the legislature to come up with some kind of agreement and get something done in the Statehouse for the skill games to tax this industry because we currently are not. That's what's we're doing right now. I know there's members on both sides of it. There's those who oppose and there's those who support. And hopefully within the next coming months, we come to some kind of agreement.
One of the things is to be able to provide that incentive to do something because sometimes good ideas bubble up from local to the national. Every now and then we come up with a good idea and whether it was evictions and things like that became a national model, and I think this is not just a Philly problem. It is a Commonwealth problem and it's a regional problem that needs to be addressed. And we're going to God willing be able to at least set some parameters around it. So thank you very much, Representative. Any other questions for him? (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. STATE REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Thank you.
Our first individual for public comment will be Andy Toy from the PACDC. (Witness approached Witness table.)
Good afternoon, Mr. Toy. Please state your name for the record and begin your testimony.
Sure. I have some written comments and you should have them. Good afternoon, Chairman Jones, Vice-Chair Lozada and City Council Public Safety Committee members. My name is Andy Toy, and I'm the Policy Director for the Philadelphia Association of Community Development Corporation better known as PACDC. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before the Public Safety Committee regarding Bill No. 240010 that seeks to address the growing problem of completely unregulated games that serve as a means of gambling in commercial corridors across our city, especially in lower income neighborhoods. What we at PACDC and our members who manage the commercial corridors in the City have been observing is that the proliferation of these machines, whether you call them games of chance or skill, have become an attractive nuisance in many neighborhoods. Of our Commercial Corridor Managers Poll, not one supports the allowance of these unregulated devices and many have cited negative impacts on their corridors overall. Some places of business only has one, but others have many machines that create a feeling like a mini casino but totally unregulated. In addition, because of the amounts of cash at these locations and people hanging out for hours as we've heard, they can become hostile and potentially unsafe places for others in the community. Finally, for some residents in our communities these games may represent a chance to make money. We know that without the payouts, they're just like regular arcade games and we don't see people playing arcade games for hours and days on end. Some would call these "games of skill" predatory. In the long run, most every player loses or the games wouldn't exist. PACDC supports Bill No. 1 240010 that prohibits these devices unless specifically licensed by the Commonwealth of the Pennsylvania. Thank you.
Mr. Toy, 6 how many organizations do you 7 represent and from what part of the 8 City are they? 9
How many or PC -- 10 we have 60 CDCs that we represent 11 plus 100 associate members. 12
And do 13 they run the breadth of the City of 14 Philadelphia? 15
Yes, we have some 22 in the Lower Northeast part of the 23 City as well. 24
Everywhere, that's my point, that this is not a select sampling or one geographic neighborhood with a socioeconomic income level. It's everywhere. And so, this is a citywide problem -- or issue, issue. So any questions?
Thank you for your testimony today. You say you represent 60 CDCs. Of those CDCs, have you all started working together to try to figure out where these establishments are along your commercial corridors?
Can you repeat that? How many of them are in commercial corridors, is that --
I'm asking you have the CDCs that you represent along the various commercial corridors, have you all started to collect the information regarding where these particular establishments are?
So anecdotally we've been hearing from some of them and we've asked if there are issues. Many of the CDCs do work on commercial corridors across the City. Some of them only do housing, but many of them or I would say most of them have a commercial corridor in their district, and we didn't hear anything positive. We know some businesses make some money doing it, and our goal would be to make sure that if somebody is struggling that we could help, our corridor managers could help them, but not necessarily this way. So if there's a way that we can help without creating a situation that can be a nuisance, then we would try that. And the City has resources to help as well. We've been -- we try to link people up to various things like facade improvements and things like that. So those are the kinds of businesses that we want to help, but we feel that this is anecdotal. And if you have enough anecdotes, it becomes data. We haven't put that data together yet, but we believe that there is enough evidence that these are a problem.
Mr. Chairman, our next speaker is Felix Santana. (No response.)
Welcome. Please come to the witness stand. (No response.)
Ms. Rodriguez, welcome. Thank you for your patience. (Witness approached Witness table.)
Yes. My name is Andrea Rodriguez. I am in business 32 years. I have a crime in 1993. It's not much in the store. I have a lot of robbery before the machine is not in the store, you know. So for me don't -- because you have machine in the store isn't a lot of robbery. Robbery all the time. Yeah, that's what I see in 32 years. I was in business, so the community they feel fine, you know, when sometimes they come to play in the store. I don't see any violence, you know, in my community. But I never hear one crime, and that help a lot to pay bills, you know, and help the store to a little more extra help to do something, pay the kids' college, help allow with something, you know, like you need. So in COVID-19, we are open, you know, 12 hours. A lot of community guys and people go to play on the machine and they feel fine because all the time they be in the house to do nothing. I don't see any problem with that, just see like people can get extra money to do something, you know.
Some weeks we can make $800. Some weeks we don't make nothing, you know. Some weeks we can make $200, $300. It's not a lot, like it's a lot of money, you know. That's my experience, you know.
Okay. All right. And you have no 8 problems in and around your store?
No, I never have problem with the neighborhood. And sometimes they say -- they feel happy because they don't have to go too far to play, you know. Sometimes they say I have some money to play and when it's close to me, it's better. You know, that's what they say.
I never see kids play machine, you know. I never see that around my neighborhood.
You know, all age. Young, you know, sometimes 30, 40, whatever.
Given the location of your store is being very close to a public housing facility, have you seen any increases not necessarily in robberies but in drug dealing around your store?
Has the increased foot traffic in your store led to other quality-of-life issues around your store, any loitering issues and things like that?
And what's the proximity to your skilled machines to the ATM in your store?
How many feet away is your skilled machine from your ATM?
Yeah. Like, how far -- what's the distance between your closest machine to the ATM?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I wanted to thank you for coming to talk to us and for what I'm sure is a vital service that you're providing to your community through your store. I wanted to ask you if this legislation were to go through, are there other ways that you can think of that the City can help your business to succeed? And I also wanted to ask you if you had any thoughts around what you wanted to see from the City on public safety more broadly?
I need somebody to ask me in Spanish that question. It's too long. I'm sorry. You know, my English. I learned my English outside. I never go to the school, so you got to do it a little bit short, the question.
Oh, I'm so sorry. First question: If this bill moves through and we make it so you're not really operating the machines, are there other ways that the City can help your business in terms of the money that you would be losing?
Lord, I got 32 years in business. I never receive any help while I'm here, any help from the City. I'm sorry, you know.
Do you know of other programs that the City has available to be able to support small businesses like yours? Have you ever been approached by someone that is related or that works with a City department to be able to provide you or small businesses like you with programs or resources that could help build your business?
Yes. If the City wants to help a little business, it's a lot of ways to do it but we got to find out and they got to find out how we can do it, you know.
There are a lot of programs that the City has that can be resourceful to small businesses like yours. And so, I think it's important one of the things as a legislative body we need to work on is to better connect small businesses that are not along commercial corridors that are not managed by some of these CDCs or some of these Commerce contracts to be able to connect small businesses to some of the resources that we have available to help their businesses grow, right. This doesn't have to be the only way, right. But I think we need to take a different approach at how we connect businesses with business support services that we have available to them. And so, I'd like us to -- I will make an effort out of my office to be able to do that. But I think that as a legislative body we should also be looking at that.
Yes. Sometimes the City get it confused because they think a little corner store make a lot of money. So sometimes we have to ask for money to pay something else in the month, you know. And so, when you work legally, any kind of business, little like that and you have a lot of things to pay, all the bills, everything is too high. So it's not easy, you know, a little business to keep open.
No, no. 13 Are you a part of an association of a collective of businesses?
She's a part of the Philadelphia Grocers Association.
I'd love to take you up, Member Lozada, to meet with them to talk about their particular needs, to bring the Commerce Department with us to see how we can help. We would do that.
Yes, because a lot of -- a lot of us, the store owner, we don't know. I don't even know if they got any help or not, you know.
I look forward to starting that dialogue about storefront rebates, sign rebates, micro loans, things that we can do. So we're not always taking away. We're giving too. Thank you.
Thank you for your patience, sir. Are you here? (Witness approached witness table.)
Have a seat. State your name for the record and please begin your testimony.
My name is Ari Marchand. I have a little company called Xtreme Skill Games. We do some business in Philadelphia, registered in Pennsylvania, paying taxes in Philadelphia, having insurance, Workmen's Comp. and doing everything by the books. I hope that the panel in front of me has an open mind. I'm not sure if you have an open mind, but I would love to believe that you have an open mind. The truth is we have a patient, the skill game, which is sick. The patient is sick. There is a very easy way to get the patient healthy and productive. The easiest way is just to kill it, just to kill it and, you know, you don't have to administrate anything and so forth. Right now Philadelphia is known around the country as the Wild West of the Skill Game. It's absolutely atrocity what's happening in Philadelphia. And I have a list of suggestions how to solve it. Part of my solution is to generate between $2 million to $3 million a month to the City, to the City, and can be done as long as everything is done under law and order. So I would like to bring a few things in no particular order. I heard one of you gentleman calling it disrespect, that those machines are disrespect to the City. Well, what about the ATM? What about Kensington and Allegheny? And I can give you really disrespect places for the City. What has to do with the machine? If the machine is administrated right, it can be very, very useful. You see those ladies and gentlemen here? Do you know how many hours they work? These people are from 6 o'clock in the morning going to the market, to whatever it is, in order to make just a living. And those machines supporting, help them. Without those games, they will have to lay off people. So I would like to bring a few things in no particular order. And by the way as far as disrespect, there are plenty of states like Georgia, Iowa that already have those state-wise confirmed and approved. And I don't think it's fair to call the state of Georgia disrespectful because they passed a law on something that I believe, I truly believe that you don't really understand completely the nature of this business. And by the way, I will be happy to be part of a committee at $1-a-year salary and to help the City to establish a plan that will help the local merchant as well as the City and to put some order in this mess. Yes, there are places that have 15 machines. What happened to a place when at 12 o'clock, 11 o'clock somebody hit the jackpot and he wins $3,000 or $4,000 and the local store do not have the money. They don't keep this money. In our company on every game there is our name and number. We ask them to call and we'll tell them somebody will come and upfront the store the money because those people getting irritated sometimes and, yes, it can be nasty. So there is a solution. And when we talk to them and we explain to them keep the ticket, it's like with the lottery, they come down, they don't make any mess and we take care of it. Our suggestion is to have what some other city has, to levy a fee per machine annually, something like $400 per machine annually paid upfront per year, and you provide us with a sticker, one of the sticker that will be difficult to copy, to forge because in this business plenty of people try to forge it, and to have it per machine and to limit up to five machines per store. And every store that has machines without the sticker, fine the store $1,000 a day. $1,000 a day, it will clean up. Furthermore, license the provider or the distributor to do so by qualifying them because we have now people that somehow came from out of state and they put machines, they don't fix them, they don't support them and cause them a lot of problems. Yes, they give them higher commission, but it cause a mess.
And by having a program whereby those machines will be "licensed," first you will know who has it because right now nobody including myself has clue how many machines are there because it's not just in the bodega, it's in the barbershop. You name it, they're everywhere. This way we can control it. And as far as security, let me tell you about security. A few years ago somebody broke into one of our machine and he dropped his license plate into the machine. So we picked up the machine, we found the license plate. I took the license plate. I wrote a letter. I went to the detective, to the police and guess what, nothing happened. We give the license plate the guy who broke the machine. We gave them many times videos showing clear face. We had many times store owner calling the police, and I hope the new Chief of Police will take care of it because it's known in Philadelphia that if you call the police about something the machine, you have 45 minutes before they show up, 45 minutes. And I have some friends in the police station in the police force that confirm to me because they don't want to get involved because of many other things, you know. So it's easy to eliminate a lot of the headaches. We by the way a few years ago some of the machines picked up. And I have here citation, criminal and everything. We went to court. Guess what, as they said to me from the police depot, we are one of the few companies that walked out with checks. They gave us all the money back. They gave us the machine and everything. We were ready. We had expert. We have everything. Something else what we do, when somebody breaks into the machine, we put a wanted $5,000. Guess what, the mother of this guy, of this crook, the mother called us. And by the way, I have many more stuff that I'll be happy to provide you later on in orderly way. There are different numbers around about how many machines are there. I don't know, 50,000, 100,000. It's a lot. And --
And again, you will ask, different people they all have different numbers. Nobody really knows. But when you go to places that have of those 15 machines, you know, it's -- we by the way, any place we tell them, five machines we don't want it, you know. But we're trying to do the right thing, but it's not always easy because sometimes somebody from out of town will come to the store and say, listen, I'll give you $10,000 advance per machine, $10,000 advance machine, get everybody else out. And the poor store owner, for them $20,000, $30,000, you know, it's a lot of money so we understand. So it is a total Wild West. Anyhow this is basically -- my concern is that the location here, the store owners they depend on this income and by cutting it down, by slashing it, by eliminating those machines that will have to -- they will have to lay off people. And they do not lay off people like me. I'm all right. They lay those people who need the work, who need the money. And they're all from Philadelphia. And as far as horror stories about machines or whatever, I can give you a lot of horror stories about the City of Philadelphia, what's happening. Those machines are not the reason. It's an excuse for you guys to say, okay, you think we'll solve it. If you will convince me by taking those machines out, the crime rate will drop down by 50 percent, I'll be the first one to say, praise the Lord, let's do it. But you and I, we know that's not the issue. And hopefully again, the new Commissioner unlike the previous Commissioner that I saw several times on T.V. and I'm not going to be very popular and say, oh, please, we have to work together, we cannot continue this one here, and in the meantime not backing up the police. And I feel terrible to be a policeman. You must be out of your mind to be a policeman in Philadelphia. So we support them as much as we can. So basically that's what I had to say. If anybody has any question. And again, this was done without big or long preparation. And I think the patient is sick. It's relatively easy to fix it, but we need your guidance. We need your open mind to work together to something that can help the local stores and to put law and order and to put some additional money in City Hall. Thank you. Any question I will be happy to --
So I'm going to defer the mic to my colleague Member Brooks. I want to thank you for coming in and testifying because I like candor. I like straightforward talk because through that we get better understanding. If I don't know where you stand, you don't know where I stand, we can't be clear on the public policy. So thank you for that.
Real quick, have you ever met with the state to talk about these regulations and problems?
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the people in Harrisburg. Have you ever met with them?
Not directly. We met indirectly with them because the VGT, it's a different level of gambling or the state are talking about the VGT. The VGT will be rewarded to only the few locations, whether it's a liquor store or something. They are not -- and again, the requirements are difficult, but they're not going to solve the problem and they're definitely not going to support the merchant, the average merchant. Because for the VGT you need to have certain condition, whether liquor license or certain size of store metrics in order to be eligible to have five of them. Yes, I wish everything could be done. You can have, you know, if the City wants to have it percentage, it's fine. It's a lot of work, and it's easier for the City to have -- listen, here's a sticker, you may pay us. Because remember, sometimes those machines end up in months in negative. It's not always positive. There is months that they have negative. So I think that the sticker will be easy way. It will be easy way for you to control, you know, exactly who has it, and we will help you with it. And --
So I'm going to hold you to that. You will provide us with those suggestions, and we will take them earnestly under consideration. I'm going to yield the mic to Member Brooks.
Thank you. I just have a question for clarity. You mentioned commission. Is the commission received per machine or is the commission for hosting a machine in the store? What's the average? I didn't understand --
Okay. To simplify the process they are doing in some other cities, simplify, you issue a sticker per game. In other words, if there's five games, five stickers, those stickers are valid for one year. You don't really care if the machine breaks up, breaks down and we have to replace the machine. As long as the sticker is valid for the specific period, this way you know if you have 400 and wherever it is, they buy it in advance. Those stickers, they pay the annual amount and they renew. And of course, carrot and the stick. You have to have major fine to the stores if they do not have it and you have to find the store. And probably the store in here would not like to hear it. Don't do it to the distributors. They don't give a damn, you know, in a sense. But the store owner, they'll know it will be heavy fine per day. They'll make sure that they will get somebody licensed to install the machine and to handle it properly. And again, to do it in such a way that not anybody that got sort of shady money and a lot of shady money and has hundred machines and comes into the stores and say, whatever you need, here it is, here it is, whatever it is. Those are breaking down and they cannot reach them. It's hit the jackpot. They cannot pay it. Those are the problem. You have plenty of companies, legitimate companies, that will be able to stand behind it and to do proper services. I said to you, we have our number because even if a customer claims that he hit the jackpot and he does know and the machine cheated him and all this stuff, we heard all the stories. Somebody will answer him professionally telling him the stories, and we never ever had any issue with the police or anything about issues about the machines. Yes, we had in the past broken machines, but I addressed it before.
Thank you so much, Mr. Marchand, for that. But I was just wondering how much is the commission? What is the percentage of the commission per machine? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 40 percent.
Thank you. That's -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The legal ones.
So in order for him -- listen, hold up. In order for the recorder to understand what's being said, you have to --
I wish he was right. That was three, four years ago, that people from New York coming up giving 70, 75, 80 percent which hurt everybody. So by regulating it, we can stop it and make sure that everything is fair. But you have -- and we can give you list of places that's getting -- Pennsylvania Skill, good for them. I wish that everybody will be like this. But even with Pennsylvania Skill, they have some crooked operators that are giving a lot more under the table. And I can provide them the names if they want to.
So we'll go to Member Gauthier and then Member Harrity. This is getting interesting.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you so much for your testimony and your recommendations.
I wanted to clarify. We are not talking about a regulation of the use of these machines in totality. We are talking about regulating the use of these machines in spaces that don't sell alcohol or have less than 30 seats if they do sell alcohol or anywhere that is unlicensed currently under the State Gaming Act. So given those boundaries, what percentage of your business in the City of Philadelphia does that represent?
If I understood your question correctly, in our case we have in Philadelphia maybe only three or four locations. Most of our business is outside Philadelphia. Three or four location that serve liquor --
But most of our business are the regular bodegas. They don't serve liquor. They most likely serve food but not liquor.
Sorry. In the City of Philadelphia, you're saying you have three establishments that sell liquor so like bars?
So do you under -- I just want to be very clear about what we're talking about.
And by the way, I would like to address it for a second please.
We have more. And there was a Chinese gangster that send the people to our location owned by Chinese, only owned by Chinese --
No, no. I have all the proof and I have the meeting with the detective. I talked to the District Attorney. And what he does is send people with sharp object and they just break the screen, and the screen is the most expensive part of this machine. So we are not expanding it and they're afraid of him. We know who he is.
But gangsters come in all flavors, so I just want us to be clear. But you're saying that within the City you only have three establishments that are bars so this bill wouldn't impact you that much; am I understanding that correctly or am I misunderstanding you?
No, we have more, many more. But only three or four of them serve liquor.
Oh, I'm sorry. How many do you have in the City that don't meet those qualifications?
We are relatively small in the City. We have them, many of them -- we're operating for five or six years. And many of them move to some of the new operators and they switch back to us because they realize sometimes amount of commission is not everything.
Okay. And then lastly, you talked about your workers. Can you expound on how many workers and contractors you have in totality and how many of them live in the City of Philadelphia?
Thank you for being here even with that tragedy, and thank you for testifying with us in a pretty honest way.
Thank you, Member. And thank you. I echo her concerns. For you to be here today shows your character and we appreciate your testimony. Member Harrity.
Yes. Again, just a couple more minutes. Thank you again for actually coming with some ideas of how things work. Just for a point of clarification, you said that some of these bad actors are coming in and they will upfront the 10,000 per machine, so five machines that's $50,000, which then they would not make any money on the machine until after it clears, that $50,000; is that correct on how it would go?
No, eventually they'll make it back. It will take time. In other words --
It's not a gift, but it's sort of a long-term loan that eventually will, you know.
Yeah, they're going to collect on it per week or whenever they come in and collect their money.
And then the place will not receive any other money until after that $50,000 debt is served -- no, they will?
Okay. Good. All right. Well, then I'm good. I'll wait until you come up and I can ask you the same questions. But I appreciate you, sir, coming in here today and actually having some constructive criticism and actually giving us some real information that we can actually use and some good ideas. So thank you.
Just one question. So what skills are needed to play these games?
It's a very complex question. Basically the game, it's like slot machine in the casino. You put the quarters or the dollars and you wait. You win or you don't win. Here you have to do something. You have to touch something. You have to move it up. You have to move it down. You have to select to do something. You don't have to have a Ph.D. for this, but you have physically to do something in order to win the game, you know, to have a chance to win the game. And I suggest to you guys to walk to one of the stores, ask the store owner to show them, to see, to talk to some of the people. And by the way, for the stores when they play the game, they buy some drink, they buy some sandwiches, they buy something else, you know, because they stay there for one hour and something. One more thing. As far as Pennsylvania Lottery, they're sort of concerned about it, it proved in Iowa, in West Virginia, in Georgia that those machines that have the slot machine and the lottery, the lottery numbers went up, not down, went up. And there is clear numbers available on those figures.
Thank you. So that kind of alluded to my next question. You talked about how someone plays these games. So I live in a neighborhood where these games are on every corner in every store, right. I live in North Philadelphia, not the nice part, right. Where Ms. Rodriguez talked about, I grew up going to her store. I grew up in Johnson Homes, right. So I grew up going to her store every weekend for my grandmom. So go to that store, go to another store on, you know, Taney and Ridge. I go down the block, you know, there's a gas station that has like seven or eight of these machines sitting in there. So I see these machines at every single store I go to in my community.
And every time I go to my community, I see someone playing these games. And they are in there for hours playing these games, right. And so, from a community perspective, which we all represent voters, we all represent communities, so from a community perspective, when we are trying to regulate a quality-of-life issue, right, because I've been in these stores and I've seen people -- physically you can tell they're high on whatever drugs they're high on at these machines for hours, they've dipped off, sleep, nodded, whatever. How can we as a body, as a body who is charged with legislating for the public safety and public welfare of the City, how can we regulate that? Because that's what I see when I go into the stores in my community, people standing at these machines for hours on end high off of whatever they're high off of and my son has to see that when he goes to the store with me. Why is that okay to see in our communities, in my community? Why is that okay?
First, I did not say it's okay. Secondly, I think that the biggest culprit here, the lottery, Pennsylvania Lottery. You are bombarded with ads all the time, scratch-offs and everything. And if you go to the store and see a line of people standing sometimes twice a day to get it, then you see everything (inaudible) and every application on the phone, but --
But that's true, but those are not in -- so when I go to the store to play the lottery for my mom, I'm in and out in five minutes, right. We're in and out with the lottery. The phone on my game, it's here on my phone. I'm not interacting with anybody but my phone. When I'm inside one of these establishments and I walk in, it's no longer just a me problem, right. It's a community issue. So that's I guess the question I'm trying to get at. I understand the lottery. The lottery is what it is. Folks are in and out though. They're not in the store for hours on end playing the lottery.
First, you got to remember that many of them play on a quarter. Secondly, there is probably mechanical way to do it, which would be too expensive and then they'll move to another machine or whatever. I understand your issue. I understand your concern. I don't have an answer for it. And if --
But if I could, you promised to work with us. And watch what you wish for. So we would love to hear those suggestions and take them into the regulation phase, the enforcement phase so that we hear and add that intelligence, if we could.
I appreciate all of the recommendations and all of the suggestions that you made today. It's not often that we are able to get or present problems and people come back with solutions. That doesn't happen all the time, so thank you so much for your testimony today. But just following up on Councilmember Young's question, very simply how do you recommend that some of these establishments control the loitering, control how long a person can stay in their establishment interacting with one of these games? What's your recommendation?
The only way to do it is store owners, they know the players and --
-- to have a sticker that it's limited for one hour or whatever. I don't have any concrete --
But we would assume based on today's testimony that the business owner depends on these people continuing to come in and continuing to play.
So the business owner is not going to do that. The business owner is not going to want us to regulate time. The business owner is not going to want to ask them to leave. Because as long as he's there and he's interacting with the machine, he's going to continue to put money in there, right. And so --
I think that what we should try to figure out together is how do we prevent the establishment or the individual who continues to come in for hours on end, how do we prevent them from becoming a nuisance business? Because this is what happens, in a lot of cases in a lot of different parts of the City, these machines pop up. They automatically attract more negative business. And we're not saying -- I don't think that any of the members of this Committee are saying that this is the sole reason why negative or nuisance businesses pop up in certain neighborhoods. We're saying that this contributes to it. And so, if together we figure out how do we minimize or eliminate a business becoming a nuisance in the community, then we would all live in much happier, safer neighborhoods --
I think you can't compare a casino to a local bodega or a local grocery store or a local supermarket or shopping establishment. They're not the same, and we shouldn't try to act like they are. These are very small establishments in 80 percent or more residential neighborhoods that sometimes attract nuisance activity and it interferes with quality of life. And I think that's the conversation we need to have, right. Let's be very honest. We're not saying that this is the only thing that attracts it. We're saying it contributes to it. So let us work together. Again, I'm grateful for you having come in, right. But I want us to be very honest about what the conversation is and how we need to move forward and as a Committee how we're looking to partner with people like yourself and other businesses in our communities that depend on this in order to keep your businesses supplemented in a different way. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I don't have a concrete answer. But as I said, the casinos when you sit in the casino and a slot machine, I agree with you most of time it's not the same crowd. But I know from past experience that people in casino lost everything and nobody was there to say, hey, hey, stop. We all have to take some personal responsibility. We're not living in a perfect world and you're right, the store owner, they don't have time. They don't have patience to watch it to see what it is. Physically the machine cannot limit you. There is not -- I mean, as I said there is a way to build the device but it will make it too expensive and then they will move to another store, you know. So somebody can move from one store to another store.
We also have to be conscious that if we expect the business owner to be the person to say to an individual it's time for you to leave, we expose that business owner to compromising their safety, right. So we have to be very careful about putting it on the business owner. We need to come up with a different kind of solution, but it can't be all on the business owner, right. I mean, they have to take responsibility but there has to be a better way to be able to get folks --
-- out of these establishments or get the machines out of the establishments.
But the player might start with one game in the store and then move to another one. So you might be minutes 18 here and 20 minutes there, so it's 19 not necessarily -- there are some 20 that have their machine and that's it, that's it, you know. But the vast majority will hop around and play different machines so they can have 20 minutes here and 20 minutes here, you know. So I don't really have the solution. But I understand what you're saying, you know. It is a concern. And the other thing is when you're in the store playing the machine, you are not outside in the street doing some worse things.
So we're going to stop the testimony on that. The worst thing is scaring me, but thank you. Thank you for your testimony and we really sincerely appreciate those comments.
You can be in touch with me any time. I'll be happy to help you, to supply you with whatever documentation I have and you'll hear the truth from me whether you like it or whether you don't like it. I'm not a politician. So if I offended anybody, I do apologize. Thank you for the opportunity.
Mr. Chairman, our next witness is Anthony Giabron. And the rest of our public commenters who the Sergeant-at-Arms will bring up and sit in the seats along the rail is Akash Patel, Live! Casino, William Beck, Tang Jhen and Brian Castillo.
Thank you for your patience guys. Please come in. Please come in. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
And will two of you come up to the mics, state your name for the record and please begin your testimony.
How are you, Councilmembers. My name is Akash Patel, born and raised in Philadelphia. I believe I'm from Mr. Jones' District, Roxborough.
Yeah, my folks, 1990. I was born moved '92. We've been running a business in Roxborough since 1998. Yeah, I just kind of wanted to come in and give my two cents on the impact that your legislation would have on families like my own, you know. I just want you to know it's not easy running a business anywhere in the country really, to be an entrepreneur. But especially in this City limits, it's a little bit more taxing literally and figuratively. In recent years, everything from the soda tax to COVID lockdowns and everything, regulations. And on top of that, cigarette tax and everything. And being in Roxborough, that puts us at especially a disadvantaged position because being so close to suburbs. So what my folks did since like '98 to now, put me through Roman Catholic, Community College of Philadelphia. It's kind of like fleeting, you know what I mean, a dream at this point because it's so difficult to run a business in this world really. So again, I think it's really important that we're here today. I think this is long overdue, but I think something that we kind of touched on is we sorely need regulation on these machines. To outright say to ban them I think is pretty disrespectful and callous. And then you're ignoring a large part of your voter base. Every face that's here right now represents a family. I don't know if you realize that, but you should. You know, it's pretty important. I also want to echo what Ms. Rodriguez said back there. I don't know if you heard or understood, but she said robberies of violence were there after the machines and they were there before the machines too. The police weren't doing anything. I also want to echo what Mr. Ari was saying. He had a robbery. The guy dropped his license he said. We had a robbery at my location like two years ago. The robber left a bag with his first and last name. The police detective never reached out to us. Do you understand what I'm trying to say here? It seems as if -- and with all due respect I don't want to sound ungrateful, I completely believe in the police. I thank them, but it seems like they're really, you know, for a lack of policing, they're making it -- do you know what I mean, they're punishing businesses that are doing their job. And I was telling Mr. Curtis, come out to where we run our place, we care about our community and put that into account. You can run these locations where it's safe for all. There can be wholesome places if done properly. That's why I was saying I think regulation is sorely needed. But to blanket ban them, I think is callous and disrespectful. Again, every face here represents a family and I think that's worth thinking about. If you have any questions, please I'd love to, you know.
I do, Mr. Chair. So should we as a city allow people to shoot dice outside of your business establishment?
That's not what I said, absolutely not. That would be dangerous, you know.
And to say that aloud is -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry.
State lottery is a thing, you know. Like it's a -- when you were asking how do we limit somebody, well, you don't know if my income is $50,000 a year or $100,000 a year. You can't do that really, right. This is America. I have the choice to really ruin my life if I want to. There's a sign behind every single bar in this nation. Do you know what it says? If you're pregnant and you get a drink, your kid is going to be messed up, what will you be having tonight. So you really can't regulate what somebody, you know what I mean. We're not the moral police, are we?
And I get that. My point is about essentially the loitering that happens in these communities where these machines are located.
Absolutely. And to echo Ms. Rodriguez and Mr. Ari, the police aren't doing their job. If by show of hands ask these people here how many times have called the police for nuisance and the police have left their establishment without doing a goddamn thing, excuse my language. That's the real issue there. We call the cops. They don't do anything. So what are we supposed to do about that? Why are we punishing honest-working, tax-paying constituents for the inability to police the police?
Have you ever called the police for people loitering in your store playing these machines?
-- I have. But isn't it important if the police don't do anything? Isn't it their job? If I'm asking for assistance, right, like hey, man, I need this guy to leave, he's not playing the machine, he's just hanging out, he won't leave, he's just whatever the hell it is. And we live in Roxborough and we're blessed that it's a smaller district, so our police presence is a little bit higher.
But I'm just saying, you know what I mean, we're blessed, so our nuisance rate is much lower. But again, that's because we have a higher police rate. All these places that have, you know what I mean, a lot more nuisance, ask them how many times the cops are patrolling their neighborhoods. It's a policing issue and regulation issue.
And so, one thing as a body what we're trying to do is trying to again curb those issues. We're not the police, right. So we're not being -- we can't go to your establishment and remove these folks, but we have the authority to do --
Again, what we have the authority to do with your telling us this, we can now take this -- you saw the Police Commissioner, right? So --
-- he's heard these issues that we have been saying. So as a body, we can work with the police on the policing models in our communities because I have an issue with that too, not --
-- but in our entire communities. But again, when we are charged with trying to regulate the public safety and the public welfare of a community, how can we do that in an efficient manner without I guess trying to -- without harming your business --
Yes. I also want to -- we both agree that we care about the community. This can bring adverse and negative effects into the community if not done responsibly and that's why I think regulation is sorely needed, desperately needed, you know. And just a blanket ban again is just not the answer. That's all I'm saying.
And I can tell you being in my community, the stores that I've gone to have not done it responsibly at all.
But why should I be punished for that though; is that fair? Should I be punished for that?
And you know, throughout all industries, every industry, whether you're a landlord, whether you're a tenant, everyone is always punished for the bad actors in that industry. And --
I disagree with that. That's your opinion. I disagree with that. And that's what I'm saying with the other thing, they didn't even have data. If you have data on the nuisance spots, why don't you crack down on those places. Again, come out to my establishment. I would love for you to come out. I'll give you 8 bucks each. Put it in the machine, 9 have a good time. See what kind of 10 environment is there. See what 11 kind of environment we can bring if 12 done responsibly. If those places 13 aren't doing it, then those l&i's 14 need to be pulled. They need to be 15 punished. 16
I can 17 tell you being an attorney and 18 representing my businesses, my 19 clients, right, for the most part 20 are small businesses. They have told me time and time again that they are -- that the good actors are always punished for the bad actors. That's how legislation is made to be quite honest. But someone bad comes and someone has an epiphany or someone has an experience with a bad actor and then they come to us to regulate that, right. Although the entire industry -- and everyone may not be bad actors. But the bad actions that happen kind of usurp everything and --
I'll say it again, that coming from you is very callous and disrespectful to every single face here that represents a family, represents a voting base, tax dollars, that we're honest- working, hard-working people that you're talking about affecting. I don't think you realize that --
I'm not saying that everyone is a bad actor. What I'm saying --
-- but that's fine. So you're telling me to accept it. You're telling me to accept the fact that the actions of a few will impact all -- sorry.
No, please continue. The actions of a few impact all. It happens in many industries in the City.
So you're telling me that everybody follows the rules but the actions of a few, we're all going to be punished now. That's so wrong. And that's fine if you feel that way. It's a free country and our votes will dictate that. I disagree with you, sir.
We can walk down the stores and we can see what happens in these stores.
Okay. That's duly noted. We'll make the arrangements. I'll go with you.
But we want to thank you for your testimony. Are there any other questions? (No response.)
But we got the point you were making. With that, Anthony Glass, who do we have next?
Mr. Chairman, our next speaker will be Live! Casino. (Witness approached Witness table.)
Certainly. My name's Thomas Diehl. I'm the Vice- president of Legal at Live! Casino and Hotel Philadelphia and I'm a prior state gaming regulator --
Certainly. Thank you, friend. I'm a prior gaming regulator from the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board. And I simply wanted to read a brief statement and certainly be available for any questions you may have afterwards, and I'm going to cheat with my specs here. I'm here to testify on behalf of Live! Casino of Philadelphia in opposition to Bill 17 240010 just before us today. It was only a year ago that the City Council passed legislation to ban purported skill games that are proliferating across the City and the Commonwealth. But now, through this bill the Council would be authorizing potentially 6,000 new devices throughout the City, more devices by the way than both Philadelphia City casinos combined. This bill does not establish a regulatory oversight or taxing authority and will undoubtedly lead to problems that should be resolved in advance. On top of that, I purport that the timing is imprudent now when the bill appears to be inconsistent with current cases awaiting a decision from the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in which the City has intervened. It is due to follow brief. Additionally, the Governor's recent comments directing the legislature to adopt legislation to tax and regulate these machines through the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board has created momentum to address this issue on the Commonwealth level. So why would we adopt rules today that would expect to be preempted soon by the state. It would appear the City would be wise to wait and see how those two major factors play out before taking these steps to affirmatively allow these purported skill games within the City limits. When the Commonwealth legalized casino gaming years ago, it set up a rigorous process to establish a framework for licensure, taxation and regulation. And we are confident that we'll do so again regarding any legislature concerning the devices that are issued today, this thorough framework protecting integrity of operations and the welfare of your constituents. In our opinion, this bill 21 does not establish an adequate regulatory structure, and that the City currently does not have the infrastructure to enforce or regulate potentially 6,000 games as it may be proposed by this bill. Further, to go ahead of legislation that is forthcoming from a Supreme Court decision is just simply not a good idea. We stand ready to work with the Philadelphia's Delegation along with other legislative leadership in the Governor's Office to work through the policy decisions necessary to properly tax and regulate these games in future parity with the casino's gaming regulation and taxes. That's the end of my statement.
So I understand if I heard you correctly, that one of your problems is that this legislation will create 6,000 opportunities to do gambling, correct?
As opposed to banning them totally. Duly noted. And then the second part of it is, is that we should wait to allow our partners at the state level to figure it out for us downstream, correct?
No, I don't think that's the case. I think there are means for City Council to address some of these issues. The same questions I've heard you raise during this meeting regarding enforcement, regarding how the revenue and the machines will be distributed, these are all valid questions. But the bill that's before us today doesn't address those. My only recommendation is that you would get answers to those questions that you're asking, I think appropriately so, reduce those answers into a written framework, regulatory framework, including taxation before you move ahead.
Well, duly noted what you said. Thank you for your testimony. But I believe the opening of these types of opportunities for skills games happened in 2017?
We've been waiting and waiting and waiting for help from up at the State that we have not received. As they pontificated and figured it out and all of that good stuff, 50,000 machines have found their way into our neighborhoods. So you say that thank goodness that the Governor is riding to our rescue. I would argue the chicken came before the egg, that when we introduced this he decided that Philadelphia is serious about these regulations and not to be dumped upon in this manner. So it's not going to be perfect. Please give us some suggestions on how to amend it. We want to work with you. We want to work with people who have testified, but we want to keep it moving. We are not going to sit back another year where people get killed, where people are hunted. We're not doing that. I don't know where you live, but I don't live far from these machines. And I'm saying to you if not now, when?
So we appreciate how you operate. You operate, you went through the process, you went through regulations, you have security, you have good lighting, you have a payout process. We respect all of that. You employ thousands of people. So we value what you're saying to us. But if we don't help ourselves, we're not sure that after another seven years we'll even have -- that legislative body is divided up there. It's hard to get laws to pass. And if we sit back on our laws, on our heels and do nothing, we can expect more to say of what we've had in our neighborhoods. Now, there are a lot of good people that operate correctly. And unfortunately, this is spilling over on them. The willingness of all of us to listen to what they have to say and figure this out is earnest, but we ain't playing. So I have a Mayor that promised cleaner, greener and safer. Cleaner, greener and safer, and this is the part of the safety part. So we're going to continue. Hopefully you will provide us some assistance in figuring this out. We welcome your ideas. But if we sit back and wait, how long?
Again, I appreciate and respect everything you said, sir, and all the questions that have been raised. And my only submission, response -- again, I agree that you have a tremendous responsibility ahead of you with respect to public safety. I agree it's not easy. I just simply would submit it's something that I would put the framework in place first with regulation and taxation before moving forward with the bill.
So God willing, we will motivate our friends at the state level to do just that. And if I woke up one day and we were superseded by state regulations that tell us where these machines are, it'll be a good day for me. But let me say this: If we don't do for ourselves, we can't expect others to do for us.
I don't disagree with that, sir. But I would submit that doing for yourself would include setting up a regulatory framework in advance. I'm not asking you to wait for somebody else to do it for you, and we would lend our assistance as would others in any way that we can. But nevertheless, I would do that part first before legalizing games.
So I appreciate your comments. Duly noted. But let me say this: We've been doing this legislation for at least two years now, and this is the first time I met you. Member Lozada.
I think the fact that we've been having this conversation for two years -- the fact that we've been having this conversation for two years is a problem. I don't know if you know, but I learned from the Chairman here last week that there were 15, bills related to gaming 14 machines at the state level. 15
15 to 17 18 bills related to this same topic 18 at the state level. That is a problem. And so, it is through conversations like this that we create the framework. It is through public testimony. It is through conversations with our residents that we are able to create frames, right, or plans on how we continue to resolve this. We have a responsibility to our neighbors, to our constituents to report when there are nuisance businesses or nuisance activities happening that impede on the quality of life in our Districts. And so, we want to work with our state legislators, right. But often times, as you can see in this case, we have been having conversations for two years. And again, we have a responsibility on the ground to respond to the needs and to the quality of life of the people that we represent. And so, we have to start somewhere. We can't continue to sit back and wait. And hopefully through these conversations, we are going to be able to move the needle forward locally or we will push our counterparts at the federal and state level to do something quickly.
Yes. Tom, I was actually pretty amazed that you were actually against this bill. Can you clarify the 6,000 machines you say that this would create? Where are they coming from?
Yes, potentially. What we're looking at was publicly available information on the number of liquor licenses within the City. I believe that came down to somewhere around 1300 and then looking at the potential number of machines per, I think that --
Well, I can tell you they already have the machines. Most of the bars have the machines in them, any neighborhood you go into. So I don't see where it would be creating 6,000 more. The number that we're concerned about is that 50,000 and up machines in our neighborhoods where we also live and have to deal with neighbors coming to our house who say, hey, my husband just put his whole paycheck in the poker machine at the takeout beer store because he went around to get a six-pack, started drinking the six-pack while he was there, caught a buzz, had no -- was willing to stick his whole paycheck in there. That's the kind of things we're trying to stop. We're trying to stop the exploitation of our residents. As you said yourself, Live! Casino, you guys have a lot of machines in there, right?
A lot of machines where people are going to gamble, which is their right, legally, licensed. As my partner here has said on numerous occasions, security, lighting, different things that make it a little harder for somebody to get over on one of our residents --
-- unlike walking in my neighborhood on Kensington and Allegheny four blocks to their house with a young buck following close behind ready to bang them on the head after they just finally hit a machine that they put their whole check into. They're the kind of things that we're trying to stop. We're trying to stop the nuisance and the drug dealers that hang out there waiting for one of these addicts that are playing on the machine to hit so that they can get a couple extra dollars from him for the merchandise he's going to buy. That's why I was really, really confused when you were against this bill. Now, I get the fact that you're saying regulations. We're all for regulations. We're all for taxation so that the City gets its little piece of the pie. That's fine. What we're tying to do is get rid of the machines and the illegal establishments that are doing this in our neighborhoods. If they want to go to a casino, then they should go to a casino and gamble and get the right odds and get the right payouts and have at least an opportunity on how the machines are regulated that they actually may hit and make a couple of dollars rather than put their whole check into it.
I thank you for sharing that, because again we mentioned earlier that the dialogue is essentially what we're here for. And I think everybody benefits from it. I certainly have benefited from what I've heard. If I could respond at least from my experiences some of the issues that you've raised. When you're discussing trying to do something about what we refer to as problem and compulsive gamblers, I think you gave the example of the husband that goes and get the six-pack. Again, from the gaming side, at least I'm familiar with the Gaming Control Board, what it had in place and continues to this day is a means to be self-excluded so you would be able to put yourself on a list that would keep licensed entities from the industry like casinos from marketing them. But again, from that was a framework that was put in place before we opened the casinos, before they were legalized and it works pretty well. And --
You guys have criteria of how you guys do things, you know.
Certainly. With respect to security, which is obviously a concern we would have as well, again through the regulation that was put in place, there was a minimal security staffing requirement that we must adhere to. There's cameras, there's surveillance, all of which is strictly regulated.
With respect to the payouts, all of the devices had to be screened by a third party lab that will make sure that the payouts which were purported were accurate. So again, in each of these instances that you raised I agree with you 100 percent. Those are legitimate concerns. But what I'm familiar with is already have the regulatory framework in place prior to the legalization. That's all I'm submitting.
I'm kind of losing my train of thought here. He said so many things that I'm just trying to get it all wrapped around my head. But, you know, as far as casinos are concerned, when you're walking around a casino, you guys have rules that you're regulated by where you'll see if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800-gambler. You warn people while they're playing. Sometimes it pops up on the machines -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
Out of order, my man. You're going to get a shot. I'm just asking a question. I'm trying to get the information correct so that we can make --
-- an informed decision that's going to benefit everybody. All right. It's questions. I have no thought already. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
So what I'm saying is that you guys have rules about that kind of stuff, and this stuff's not regulated in any way whatsoever. These machines -- I think we're falling off the thing -- are illegal. They're not a legal machine. Once they pay out, that's illegal, correct?
I'm sorry. I didn't hear -- I don't think I understood the question. Let me ask --
A machine in a store that pays out is already illegal. It is illegal to gamble in an establishment that is not an established gambling site; is that correct?
With respect to these devices, these are the issues that are pending before the court right now with respect to -- I don't think there's an obvious answer to that regrettably given the state of the court. And that's one of my earlier recommendations, to wait until we get some guidance from the Pennsylvania Supreme Court on the issue that you're asking about.
Well, in seven more years we'll (inaudible). In the meantime, do you have calibrations on what similar machines have to pay out on average?
Oh, yes. I mean, by statute it's regulated for -- again, I'm specifically talking about the Gaming Control Board and the Gaming Act and slots machines that I'm familiar with. There's a specific statutory limit. But to be competitive, it must be higher than that. I believe our -- and again, this is coming from an attorney, not an operator. But I believe our payouts are somewhere between 91 to 93 percent, I believe is the range. So again, there's a statutory floor. But to be competitive you really can't go down that low. But the point is the machines are calibrated in advance to put on the gaming floor approved by a third party that they are --
GLI. It's a third party through the -- when I was there actually, the Gaming Control Board had some separate lab and did that and ultimately got --
I think it's Gaming Labs International or Gaming Labs, Inc. We always refer to it as the acronym GLI. But, yeah, there is a certification process. And no machines will go on a gaming floor regulated by the Gaming Control Board without the --
I know they're checked before they go on the gaming floor. After that, I would have to get back to you on that.
Would you I guess equate these machines to gambling or having a gambling-like effect?
By -- I'm not sure -- the definition of these machines again is something that's pending. Are you asking whether a problem or compulsion gambler would have a problem on these machines?
To be clear, that would be beyond my area of expertise. I think you can certainly draw your own conclusions. I'm here to discuss more from a regulatory standpoint, not maybe from a psychologist. But I certainly would trust your judgment and discernment to draw the conclusions that you may already have.
And so, I'm going to draw the conclusion to say that these machines have a gambling-like effect that can read a compulsatory -- a compulsatory --
Yeah, response. And given that, right, if I'm a compulsive gambler of these machines and I want to gamble more in a more legal, safe environment as the compulsive gambler, is it a more safe environment for me to receive the feelings that I'm looking for at one of your casinos?
It would certainly be more regulated. And let me be very specific what I mean by that. You would have the opportunity if you thought you were a problem compulsive gambler to add your name to a list where you would be prohibited from entering and playing in our casinos. That is a mechanism that's been in place from day one at the Gaming Control Board and continues. That mechanism to my knowledge is not in place in the devices that you're discussing.
It is not. And I would say that then a customer would then have to put themselves on a list to no longer enter their corner store that they've been going into for years upon years upon years, right. So I think that that framework here will be ineffective for what we are trying to accomplish here. And so, I just think that, you know, understanding the psychological effect, you're not here for that. But as a member of the body, we have to look at things holistically --
-- and looking at that particular issue, I do think that having these machines in our communities then leads to folks, you know, can lead to your particular employer benefiting from these machines, so I could see why you are here to testify in support of these machines.
Just one follow-up. Would you allow these machines in the casino?
I wouldn't make that determination. The Gaming Control Board makes very clear what we can and cannot put in our facilities.
Well, you've treated me very well. I sincerely appreciate all of you giving the opportunity to provide questions and answers, and I certainly would make myself available in the future if that might be helpful to you even in a small way.
Mr. Chairman, our next speaker is William Beck. (Witness approached Witness table.)
State your name for the record. Please begin your testimony.
My name's William Beck. I'm in this business and I'm glad I came after the casino gentleman. He's telling some truths, but not all the truths. He don't want skilled machines because they're competition. They have 1-800 numbers and they have these do-not- allow-betting lists, but they're not there to help people. They're there so they can stay in business. See this here? Everybody has one of these, a cell phone. Okay. You can go on any app now. You don't even need to walk in brick-and-mortars for anything. Okay. You can just gamble right from the phone. And I watched it destroy my son's life for a little while. Okay. So I don't want to hear about the heroism of the casino. What I do want to say though is I agree with everybody up here, that it is definitely a nuisance if it's not regulated. And I earn off of skill machines, part of what I do in the business. And I work for a company. I'm not going to say their name because I'm not speaking on behalf of them. I'm speaking on my experiences. But this all started, you guys keep saying in 2017. From what I learned or from my experience is in 2014 there was a bill passed -- not a bill passed, actually a court ruling from a judge in Beaver County saying that these skill machines are legal because they're not a game of chance. They're a game of skill, for whatever reasons, whatever you can do, nudge a button, play follow the banana or touch here, whatever they are. And that's why they started coming out. Initially, it was one machine, a Pace machine that was on the court ruling. That was it. Okay. So then I guess around 2017, 2018, 2019, COVID especially, you start seeing all these unauthorized skill machines that weren't adjudicated by the judge in Beaver County. What happened was I think that a lot of people from Virginia -- the one gentleman said New York, I don't know -- but they came down and started offering a wide variety of commission structures all unregulated by even the judge, a court. Okay. That's where the problem started. That's where the infiltration of all the neighborhoods, delis, gas stations. You're right. There's six, seven machines, you know. If my aunt or my grandmother, God rest her soul, or my mother walked into a place like that for their convenience, because that's what that store initially owned for, convenience, they might be a little intimidated. I know our company or bigger vending companies out there wanted to do this for tavern and bar owners and VFP Posts, stuff like that, because they needed extra income and that was supposed to be in a bill with VGTs, video gaming terminals. And for years these big vending companies, even though that adjudication was in Beaver County in 2017, they didn't even try to put any of these games out because they didn't want to jeopardize their licenses for the future for legal, regulated video gaming terminals. But for whatever reason, there was a lot of pushback from the powers that be, casinos. It didn't go through. So again, I guess it spread down from Beaver County into the area. Okay. And we were just following regulations from the Beaver County judge. That's what most people in the industry did, until they didn't. And I guess that's why we're all here today because it festered. How do you regulate it, a lot of people were talking about. I'm no expert in that. I would say to the one Councilmember, these games in convenience stores, you know, you would walk in with your little kid, probably one game there and that would keep the traffic down. That would also keep people from playing for hours. And that also wouldn't affect the one woman's business that she says it helps her with income and it probably does. I think you can find a happy medium to everything. But five or six or seven machines is outrageous. And we're in that business and we don't feel like it's appropriate. That's what casinos are for actually.
Liquor establishments, bars and stuff like that, like everyone up here was suggesting, they take ID, you're carded. Yeah, that's probably a good place for it, especially now since the regular grocery stores and Acmes and everything like that have a liquor license, they can buy take-out here. That was a big part of a bar when they pay $100,000 for their liquor licenses, take-out beer was, you know, part of their revenue. Now, it's not. You can just go to the Acme, you know. So I think a happy medium, it's a good business. The City definitely could make a lot of money on it, regulate it and it should be. It could help every inner city, whatever. I grew up in Philadelphia, so I hear everybody talking about the crime this and, you know. In the end, it is the person, you know. But certain things lead to crime, you know. So I wanted to come up and just state some facts because I am in the business. I see the City streets. I'm all over them. Kensington and Allegheny, I spent some time down there before it got out of control. I don't think skilled games are anywhere in that vicinity or are even making money because of the drug problem, so that's an issue. I will be more than happy to answer any questions.
I understand the (inaudible) of a casino. You have people serving you drinks. You have food flowing. You have the ringing of the bell which is like Pavlov. You get stimulated, you want to put your money in. You hear somebody win, ah, I won, and that helps. Tell me when you're sitting in one of these neighborhood places what attracts people to that ambience.
To go gamble at a corner store versus the casi -- what attracts --
It's a video game. And so, that attracts people. Before there was skill machines there was arcade games, Ms. Pacman. That's what attracts people. So that's what attracts people because it's there. Now, if there's five or seven or ten of them, well, then there's more of an attraction. I get what you're saying. But when you walk into the store if it's there, just like the vending machine now that you have from the Pennsylvania State Lottery, before it was just walk up and get a ticket. Now, they can go there and put their money in there and get, you know, same thing -- well, not the same thing, but the same type of attraction. There is lights. There is music, you know. There is things. It's there.
Okay. No, that's helpful to me, because when I see stools right by there and people sitting on them and I'm looking around, it's cheese and butter and milk and they're sitting there, in their mind I'm thinking where are they. But I see what you're saying. Thank you so much. Any other --
So it took you a long time to get up with your testimony, but you seem mostly to be testifying in support. I mean, you seem mostly to be agreeing with us that it's better to have these games in places that sell liquor and are licensed, you know, more appropriate for their presence.
Right. Because I thought why I was coming here today because I saw the City ordinance, and I thought you guys were making certain adjustments to them as far as 30 more seats, or 12 more seats. 13
And regulation. 17 I mean we're not -- you want law 18 and order just like the other 19 people said. I have children. I 20 don't want to see, you know. I don't want to see kids -- we have stickers that says 18 or older, but come on. But if they're in liquor establishments, they can't go in, you know. And you're more of an adult at a certain age.
So you agree with the bill with the amendments that have been made?
So we did a cut-out because of those reasons that you said, the bars, VFWs, restaurants that have seating for a certain amount. What we're trying to regulate is them in the stores. So you're actually saying regulate them and limit them. Is that what your testimony was for the stores?
So if I was writing the bill, I wouldn't want to hurt store owners either and I think we can come up with a reasonable solution for that, and I guess that would be a combination of everything as far as, you know, if you have a convenience store, a regular convenience store, not a convenience store that says they're a convenience store with three items on the shelf, you know what I mean. One machine, you don't have the traffic. Maybe two machines, I don't know. I don't know their number there, but definitely not more than two because then you're asking for people hanging out. And I saw the video with the police officers and the gentleman that got shot, but the guy that got shot wasn't even the guy playing the skill machine, you know what I mean. But, no, that's -- because you're going to have crime like the one lady said, you know, and you don't want to hurt them. So if you did one skill machine, they can make a decent income. Now, the people that put five to seven machines at our convenience stores, that's greed. That's all that is. And if they're here today, I know it because I deal with you, you know. Those bonuses that guy talked about, people coming in from $10,000 and giving a bigger percentage, they come from a place that deregulated or didn't -- either they were regulated or -- yeah, they were regulated and I think they got deregulated, so now they're sitting on equipment. They can give you whatever because they've invested so much money on equipment. That's what'll happen next here. You want to get something straight, you know. You just want to get it in one direction where you don't have this crime. You want one or two regulated games like it was from the judge in Beaver County and yous had that issue and yous compromised the City and there was a ruling on that, that yous weren't going to pick up machines. The City has that with just that machine, that manufacturer. And yet and everybody piggybacked off of that, and the bad actors jumped in. So basically you do have legal skill games.
And you have illegal ones. We want to make sure that any skill games that you do have -- or not make sure. We would like to come to a compromise obviously for everybody, safety, income, generate income, you know. That's all.
-- when I start hearing the wrong things, I get a little emotional. It's the Italian side of me, you know what I mean.
They get like that too. Thank you so much. Mr. Glass, we have two more to testify?
Mr. Chairman, our next testifier will be Tang Jhen. (Witness approached Witness table.)
Thank you. Hey, my name is Tariq and I'm a small business owner in South Philadelphia and I'm a member of FOA. We have about 100 store owners in the association. That means that I'm one person but means 100 people are speaking. We have a lot of good and a lot of bad out there, but nowadays we are going as a business owner to a lot of challenges, which is high theft, inventory shortages, more taxes in City of Philadelphia than any other county in Pennsylvania. For example, sugar tax, $2 a pack per cigarette, right, and a lot more is going on there, BIRT taxes, right. We need -- on one hand that I heard most of you guys that trying to support the community, but what I think, you can't support the community without having a small businesses. And only we can be in business if we have a lot of cash flow nowadays because of the inflation. Cost of living is way so up high. Before the COVID, we used to pay $6 or $7 an hour -- by the way, I'm a 7-Eleven owner. We used to pay $7 or $8 and due to the employee shortages, inventory shortages and a lot of more problems, the wages have went up so high and everybody is mostly at least paying $12 an hour. For me the small business owner, if we sit in a room and we trying to guess if it's hot or cold out there, we're always going to have a wrong decision if you don't go with it, right. So for us to take a real steps and study the reality, I will recommend to have a team in place and they can go and really understand the small business owner, that how many challenges they are going on daily basis. Long story short, if the skills of game machines was not alive, we would not be in business. My door is open and I'm having about 12 family members there are just eating and their way of reason because we have a skills of game machines and my business is open. If you took the skills of games away, my door will be closed. That mean if my door is closed, there is going to be hundred more 7-Elevens in the City of Philadelphia that will be closed too. We are talking about that there is a positive, negative. Like, okay, people hanging out in the store. This is not because of the skills of games machine. This is because of policing. The police are not responding to the phone call. They're not showing up on time. Even the police are saying we have to be closed. The reason why we say that because the regulation has been met, the (inaudible) are not supporting the police, but they are supporting the criminals. So we need to make better laws for businesses, how they can be alive and make a better laws for policing that, okay, how they respond to the matters. So my suggestion is that we need to make a reg -- you guys need to make a regulation in having a better environment for skills of game machines which is supporting small businesses. So I would like to take any question you guys have.
So first, thank you for coming in and your patience. I want you to know that we support small businesses. We are not in the business of killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. You are the employers and people who pay our salaries, so we recognize that. The question I have is what percentage of gaming is your total gross of your business?
Forty percent. We are making forty percent of the business. My yearly commission is about $100,000.
Let me add this thing. Like before I used to have a lot of employees issues, right. People used to come and shoplifting a lot, right. The employees used to constantly working at the store. The reason why like 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. or 4:00 a.m. or 12:00 a.m. in the morning they used to be all alone in the store. They used to get scared. Right now these businesses, the skills of game machine is bringing people to the store who is sitting and giving kind of confidence to the employees who they can talk to, right, and they feel more comfortable.
Okay. He said 100,000, 40 percent. That's significant. Okay. Any questions?
So let me take this. If you -- like my yearly payroll is about $230,000, right. If you take the skills of game machine -- and last year including taxes, I made $96,000. If that $100,000 went away from my income, I will make 0 balance and in the negative.
So in order to operate a convenience store, you have to operate a gambling -- you have to have a gambling-like component to it. That's what you're telling us today?
In order to operate a convenience store, you have to have a gambling-like component to it in order to stay in the black?
Based on what you've said is that you are no 17 making it -- you cannot make enough money in your store unless you have these machines?
So again, sir, as a convenient store, you must have these machines in order to keep your doors open?
Prior to these machines being utilized in Philadelphia, how long has your store been open without the machines?
My store been open more than 40 years ago, right. But before COVID, there was a different environment. We can't count those. We used to have $7 or $8 employees, right. Right now at least we are paying $12 an hour to every employees. People used to work so hard because there was no 15 Uber, no Lyft, no DoorDash in places, right. And right now people are not into that. People just want to have it easier, so they're not working hard like they used to be, right. So before, like for example, if you used to have two employees per shift to cover the shift, we need at least a third person to cover the shift.
So essentially because of the employee market, right, the employee market now has driven down your profit margins because employees are now demanding more money to work?
So in order to cover that profit margin, you're stating that the only way that you can cover that is by having these machines in the store?
Yes. That means if you go to 100 7-Eleven store owners, right, and sit with them and go through their financial, right -- for example, if you go to a mom-and-pop store, right, I don't think you're going to come out with any type of result because there is nothing documented. But in 7-Eleven that everything is documented, right, and you can see that what the real life is.
So I can tell you in a past life before I became a member of this body, again I said I represent small businesses, my firm represents a lot of franchise owners. So I understand where your profit margins are, where they're at and where they could be. But this is the first time that I've heard that someone cannot operate their store unless they have these machines in there.
Yeah. So my store in the City of Philadelphia counted as a higher volume store, right. But for me as a higher volume store if I cannot operate, there is a lot more that they cannot -- these 100 FON member -- the 100 FON member supposed to come into this meeting. The reason they cannot come into this meeting because they're poor people. They start 6:00, 5:00 a.m. in the morning and they're getting off work about 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. They're putting every day and 14 4 and 13 hours a day. 5 And probably we all a 6 7-Eleven customer. Probably you 7 guys in the morning go to 7-Eleven. 8 When you get off work and you go 9 back to that 7-Eleven, you're going 10 to see the same employee. Why? 11 Because of all these challenges. 12
And I 13 get working hard, right. I was an 14 entrepreneur. I understand getting 15 up early, working late. I mean, 16 that's what happens when you're an entrepreneur. That's what you have to do. It's a part of business. But I just find it hard to believe that the markets will not be able to adjust to this type of regulation and that you are only able to see a profit margin significant enough to stay in business with these machines. That's all.
So my answer to that question is, if I understood it correctly, right, so myself cannot be in business without having these machines in the store, and this is the voice of every single franchisee that you're just hearing from only one of us.
I've gone to 7-Eleven in Center City and I have not seen these machines.
I've gone to 7-Eleven inside of Center City and I have not seen these machines in the 7-Elevens in Center City.
So we was having the gentleman -- he have four stores or three stores, Buwenda(ph). I'm talking about Buwenda. He just left. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
No, he got three stores. He has it in his three stores. He has it. You have them in your store? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
Okay. How many -- you have them in your store? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
Some of the address is -- some of it I remember on top of my head. Mine is -- okay, if you go 23rd and Passyunk that has it. If you go to Broad and Wolf, that has it. If you go to 10th and Snyder, that has it.
So I guess my point is that for you to say that these stores cannot operate without these machines, I have seen 7-Elevens operate in certain areas and places that don't have these machines. That's my point.
So, like, some people they're having a lot of family support, right. So if you go inside those stores and ask them, right, so probably their son is under was come in out of 5 school. In the morning mom is 6 working. Afternoon father is 7 working. Later on in daytime the 8 son is working, right. So some of 9 the people they are running the 10 store that way, right. That is 11 another story. But the stores that 12 are depending on employees, right, 13 so they cannot operate. 14
I mean but 15 again, that's the nature of having a family business. Being a small business owner that happens every -- even look at whatever industry you want to look at. If you're going to be a small business owner, that's the time, that you get up early and you go to sleep late. That's the nature of it. So again, I'm trying to figure out why is it that this particular industry has to have these machines in order to be profitable.
Okay. So this particular industry, we are making a good amount of money from them, right, and it's easy money for us to make it. And this is safe. We don't have any problems about -- okay, if you're talking about the guy he was just saying that, okay, we having the ATM, like somebody cannot get in the ATM. We can just arrange the store and we can put in -- and there should be regulations where we can put it, where we cannot, the number of machines. Make sure that whoever own the machine company they are paying the license fee and they are regulated. These are the kind of changes make it, but it is not -- it is highly -- I highly disagree if the machine is going to be taken away from the stores.
Thank you so much, Member Young. And thank you for your testimony. We have to have frank discussions to get an understanding, so I appreciate you telling us the reality of running a franchise store and I appreciate it.
My name is Brian Castillo. Nice to meet you guys. I was an immigrant and I was born in Dominican Republic. I came here and started working in a bodega. So within the time in that bodega there was a couple of times a week, couple times a month, maybe three or four months in a row where the store owner told me, I got to pay you tomorrow or I have to pay you next two days because they wouldn't have the numbers. When I stopped working at the bodegas, that was one of the reasons because there was no money to pay the customers. I'm an operator so I got into this business. I was able to go to the same store owner which he was like father to me, go to the store, put in one of these machines in there, one of the skilled games. Now, the guy, he actually has two more employees. It's not just making revenue to the store owner or to the operator, it's actually creating jobs because there's time when grocery store owners where there's a lot here and there's a lot of people that actually had to come here. That one of the reasons they are able to have a little bit more freedom in their business is because they're able to actually pay for another employee. I understand the reason about having six, seven machines being a problem for the community, which total fine. That's why in everything actually -- actually in alcohol, in sodas, in food, that's why the FDA actually exist. There has to be control in everything by the City. So one way for you guys as the City to actually fix that problem is come in and help out but not take them out. We working -- there's a lot of people coming in. Everybody said everything that I had to say today, totally right. You have a store, you go to the store, you put the machines. Then you only put two because the store owner said, I don't have any more space. Somebody else come in, offers them $1,000, $2,000 per machine to put their machines in. So now we have my two. Then we have the other guy that offered $4,000, $5,000 to put their two and then we have another guy. And as a store owner, you have to understand $5,000 is a lot of money. $5,000 for everybody is a lot of money. So when you have everything in cash, even if the machine doesn't make that much money, it's a lot of money. So one way for you guys to regulate it is actually implementing two machines per store. That would actually help in the four, five, six guys hanging out inside of the store and then somebody comes in like a child or the grandmom, your mom, you, yourself actually go into the store. You don't have to bump into everybody because there's five, six guys playing on the machines. Totally right about that. Percentage-wise, money-wise in Norristown, I know it doesn't really matter in Philly, but in Norristown something they did is that you couldn't put more than six machines inside of a store depending on the square footage and they charge $100 per year per machine. That's in Norristown of course. And I know that because I've paid it myself. That's one way to actually help out. Another way to help out is regulating the percentage by profit. We usually do 50/50. Pennsylvania Skills is another company that do 60/40, so they say it's 10 percent for the state which is not regulated, so they say they pay taxes, but they're not paying the actual percent to the state. They say that, but it's 60/40. And there's another guy that came from Virginia, that came from New York and from everywhere to be honest because it's a business, that they do 75, 65, 85 percent and that makes business a little bad if we can say that, because the store owner's saying, I'm going to get a little bit more money, but then he wants to stay with you and then it becomes another problem of having seven to eight machines. The problem with doing $500 penalty, $300 penalty is not worth it. If you're going to do anything with the skill games, it has to be something $50,000. The store owner gets scared.
When you talk about $2,000, the store owner gets scared because I mean, there's stores they don't make $1,000. And there are certain locations that they used to make $1,000 per week, $500 per week. Now, with the economy it's $100 a week, $200 a week. So now, everything is going low. I had a store myself. In bad times, we had to actually fire employees. There was no way for us to cover the cost. That's how I actually started in this business because we put these machines in to make it up. When the sir right behind me said that he has 100 7-Elevens that they are actually dependent on these machines, I believe him because the economy is not what it used to be. Right now, I don't know, a box of juice cost $3, $4. 49. Eggs used to be five for $5. 50 each dozen. Now, it's not. 99. 99. So you have to understand there's a lot of more cost in everything and less money on the streets. So right now if you open up a store, you can do it yourself. 50, you make $50. But then the employee has to work hours 8 making $100. You're negative. The 9 only way we can actually figure 10 this one out and actually help 11 everybody out, small businesses, 12 that this is why we are here, it's regulating the machines, making them 100 percent legal, taxating them but also helping the store owner. Most of everything helping the store owner. Because we as distributors, we don't have that much problems as they do. We still have to pay employees. We still have to cover the negative. We still have to cover the cost of fixing the machines, which cost a lot of money. Just one screen cost $1,000. So when it breaks, it's $1,000 that we cover, not the store owner. The store owner gets a lot of -- how can I say this -- a lot of profit, which can be taxable if we only can help him out. We do 50/50 like we said. There's no 8 problem giving the state or the City percent. I don't know, 10 $100 per machine. However, you guys can actually understand and actually pay even the officers so we can help the officers, pay them more hours, more everything because -- how can I say this. Criminal activity outside of the skill games, they exist. I used to work for an ATM company. They broke into my car. They stole $50,000 out of my car. I was with my pregnant at the time wife at the time -- well, my wife. She was pregnant. We went to Home Depot. We went to buy some tools. Somebody broke into the car, stole $50,000. That was two years ago. Up until this day, I haven't heard from the police telling me where is my money or if they actually caught the guys, which they got on video because it was in a Home Depot parking lot. So it exist already. If you go to Kensington Ave, it still exist. You see people robbing in the streets with police passing by. They just don't stop because of the location. I called -- the same day I called for the $50,000. Let me tell you, it's a lot of money. They took over an hour to be there. That was before the machines. So when certain guys come here and tell you this is harming the community, how is it harming it if it's already there? It doesn't improve it because there's drugs in the street right now that doesn't have nothing to do with us. There's people robbing because of necessity, because I'm not saying they're doing it because they want to. Some people want to actually. But this is not a problem from the skill games. Putting them in liquor stores, just in liquor stores, you would be killing hundreds, if not thousands of store owners that actually made money out of that. And it just doesn't matter how much we can say it is some to the skills games, that's why we're having problems, when the actual problem is out there. Thank you. Any questions?
Yes. Thank you for your testimony. I really appreciate that, you know, providing a perspective for me. But one thing you said is that how does this regulation change things or how do these machines change things in communities. What I would say is that these machines, it concentrates the negative behaviors in the stores, right. So the negative behavior exist. It's going to exist in these communities, wherever you go, it's there. But you don't want to concentrate that on one location, on one space because that exacerbates the negative things that are happening in communities. So for us as a body, again we want to figure how do we mitigate any negative things that are happening in our communities, and these machines from my perspective concentrates that negative behavior on these stores, right. And that's just like if I put it outside of my house, right, and folks are coming to use this machine outside of my house all the time, congregating outside of my house. How do you think my neighbors will feel, right. And that is what's happening in these communities. These stores are in communities with neighbors, and that's all we're saying. And so, the neighbors, the communities --
One thing -- I'm sorry to interrupt you. One thing that -- the players are not from outside. The players are the neighbors. That's one thing. The second thing is negative behavior comes with cigarettes, it comes with alcohol. When somebody goes to the convenience store and actually says, let me go buy a pack of cigarettes and they say, we don't have them, do you know what they do? They even break your store because you don't have them. And this has nothing to do with the machines. And trust me, I told you I've worked in a store. Somebody went, bought a pair of headphones. He bought headphones. They stopped working the next day. He went in there and he broke them on my face. We had a protector, thank God. But he threw them on my face. There was no machines at the time. Negative behavior exists.
It has something to do -- but let me tell you. It doesn't have nothing to do with the machines. Because if you have two machines, there would -- if you go to any stores, if you go to, I don't know, let's just 100 stores, and I can tell you because we have locations in over 100 stores. We pay our taxes. We pay everything. We pay employees. We buy gas stations. We go to store owners. We buy them groceries so it helps -- everywhere helps out. There's no negative behavior in our stores because of the machines. We've never had a problem breaking them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm saying it happens not that much a month. Not even a month, it happens --
I must be going at the wrong times then when I go to the stores.
Of course. I'm not saying -- it's like you're saying that we shall compare Kensington Ave, right, to Central Philly. That doesn't have any sense. There's more drugs on Kensington Ave and more homeless guys than in Central Philly, right, so it doesn't have nothing to do with the location or with the machines. It just have something to do how the community works with education, how the City helps these guys out because we have nothing to do with how somebody is not educated. That's something that has to deal with the City with. The education, I have an education and I've been in trouble before, but you don't see me breaking stuff. You don't see me slamming into other people. If you say that the people that drive, that they have a negative behavior when there's construction down on Roosevelt Boulevard, that always happens. Then at that traffic stop somebody is always put into harm every time and somebody trying to crash on somebody else because there's a traffic stop. And it's not because of us. It's because of the City's actually repairing or building the streets. It doesn't have nothing to do with the machines. It has everything to do with the education that the City provides to the citizens.
Right, but the machines create the environment for these things --
A good environment if you don't know. You know what they do when they win that I've been there? They get happy --
And you know what they do when they lose all their money? They get upset.
No, no, they don't get that upset. Believe it or not, they don't get that upset.
Of course. Like I said, if you go into those type of communities where people are not educated, where people are going to break into stuff no matter if they're playing machine, you know what matters, everything to them. If you don't fix their streets, if you don't put cigarettes -- which right now a cigarette license is crazy to get. If you don't get liquor license and somebody is trying to sell beer, you can't do that because it cost $200,000. So for you to go regulate something for the liquor store owner only, you have a certain amount that you're going to give the people so it's going to be like a monopoly. Just a certain amount of people can have it, the people that have that money. So somebody with a grocery store, $100,000, that's a lot of money. So you know what's $200,000? Just to purchase the licensing for the liquor license, $200,000 to $300,000 just to purchase the liquor license and then you have to build a business. It's over a half a million investment. There's not everybody that has that kind of money. So --
That is a risk of being a small business owner. When you --
Of course. But the risk comes with the City too. So if the City doesn't work for the citizens, then we're in trouble. You guys as the City have to help the small business owner to succeed, to stop becoming a small business --
Not to the detriment and quality of life in our neighborhoods.
-- when you become from a grocery store now you have enough money to actually become a supermarket, that generates a lot of traffic and it generates a lot of employees. That's just -- it is what it is. Business works just like you said. The problem is when you say the community now they're having problems -- there's one store in every single street. Every corner there's a store. We don't have nothing to do with that. The City does because if you don't want 100 people in one store, then you let them open a lot of stores. So if you don't want everybody to go just to the casinos and go to the liquor stores, it's a monopoly. Just two guys can have it and the guy that has a lot of money. Remember, this is America. So one of the things, most of the immigrants actually come here it's because we are able to succeed in this country because we are not able to actually open it in our country. Remember, in our country that's the problem that we have. For you to open up a successful business, you must be a millionaire or you must have a lot of money or friends with a lot of people. In America you can open up a business with $10,000; $20,000 that you get from a loan and you open up a small business. Do you know what the dream of everybody, to grow, not stay a small business. So these machines help these guys out to actually open two stores, three stores. There's people that actually have opened two, three, four stores. You know what those stores do? They pay taxes, they pay sugar taxes. They pay employees and employees pay their taxes. So it helps them. It helps everybody out. When you give these guys an opportunity to make $500 which maybe for you guys is not a lot of money, but $500 pays a lot of bills. Remember, rent is $1500 these days. So right now if you take this $1500 a month from these guys of $6,000 a year, you're taking their rent, you're taking two, three employees getting fired, you're taking us as operators firing our guys and you're taking even the store owner paying taxes and us paying more taxes than we should. So we're helping everybody. It's just like a circle. Everybody's helping each other.
So should we allow other activities to occur in stores? If we were able to tax it, should we allow store owners to sell other illegal items because it's being taxed because you're making money contributing to the economy, should we do that?
I'm sorry to say this. But in this country it happened with weed, because it makes a lot of money, because it makes everything. Now, we're regulating weed. So can you tell me, can you actually tell me skill games are more dangerous than weed?
It's not more dangerous but it's being regulated and it's becoming legal in every state.
And trust me, it is far more dangerous having people outside because it's legal than having people two machines per store because how --
But to my point, you have those machines and you said people outside selling drugs. When I go to see these stores, the people who I see on these machines are people who are high on drugs at these stores. So you know who follows --
-- addicts? Drug dealers follow the addicts. They're going to go to where the addicts are. So --
-- if the addicts are at these stores, that's where they're going to go.
I believe what you're saying. But then it becomes a two-way problem. Drugs have been in this country and in this state for more -- I wasn't even born in that time. So if you think about it, if you want to kill the problem from the inside, kill the drugs. And why don't you guys do it because don't tell me that the greatest country in the world don't have the means to kill actually the drugs. It does. There's enough police. There's --
I want you to know you were winning up until -- you were winning up until a point and then you flipped the script on me.
No, I'm not flipping it. I'm just saying that if we keep that closed mind and we're not able to grow, for us as small businesses we have to -- even you guys are the ones deciding if we can keep our business, you have to keep an open mind and think about -- it's not me. I have two childs. My father, he has four. If you think about everybody that was here and all the store owners, there's over 400, 500 stores just in Philadelphia. If you think 500 times 5 counting their families, times 6, actually counting their employees, 7, you're talking about with this business we are trying to protect over 2800 families. So it's not just the community that are getting hurt. I'm not saying it is not. I'm just saying you can keep them. You're right, but we can regulate it. We can keep two machines.
You're winning again. Stop. Member Lozada, comment. And a question, Member Harrity.
I just want to make a comment. You know, I think that what is important to note here is that we're not against small businesses. I want to say that again.
We are not against small businesses, but we have a responsibility to protect quality of life in our District and in our City. When a business becomes a nuisance business because of the activity that they are allowing to concentrate in their establishment, we must respond to it. And so, I think that this is what I hope is the beginning of many conversations about how we support small businesses, how do we allow and help and connect you to grow to be able to take care of your families for generations, but how do we keep quality of life intact in our communities. And I think that's very important, right. Because where you live and where your family lays their head to rest at night, you want it to be a safe, peaceful space, right. And I think across the City of Philadelphia everyone wants the same thing. So we're not saying you're wrong. We're not saying anybody here -- I think that this is the beginning of us having a conversation about how do we create a balance where small businesses can take care of their families and grow while we still protect quality of life in neighborhoods.
We can definitely do that by being organized. Within the organization we can actually do everything we want to. You're totally right about what you're saying about quality of life. I'm just saying if we organize within the City, not because you guys have the power to actually say there's only two machines, there's only four machines, there's only one machine per store, it's fine. We're not saying that you should not do that. We're saying you should just control it, organize it. Seven machines per location is a lot, which it's not just a lot. It cost a lot of money to put six machines. So just by you organizing how these machines must be placed, they must be within 6 feet within each other, you must have enough space for somebody to be playing and somebody to be walking right behind you so they can go through the store, it's totally fine because it's organized --
The only way we can get to there, the only way we can get to a balance is that, that you all as the operator understand that there is a problem --
-- right. Again, we need you all to assume responsibility, accept --
And that some of your business is hurting quality of life. We need you to get there in order for us to have honest conversation about how we regulate and what we regulate, what is the max and what is the minimum --
-- what comes along with that. If you all are not willing to have that conversation, then we're not going to get anywhere. We're going to continue to go in a circle, and two years from now we're going to have this same conversation.
Of course, and you're 100 percent -- that's exactly what I'm trying to say. You're 100 percent right about everything you just said. We already -- we actually know that there is a problem with having seven machines. Trust me, us as operators, we're not happy to put six machines in one store. They cost over $10,000. So just imagine $60,000 sitting in the store making $500 a week doesn't make the numbers. You're totally right about what you're saying. The problem is if you don't put six machines, then somebody else come in and put six machines, and then somebody else come in and they put two more machines and you have a store with machines. 4
So what 5 we're going to do is let Member 6 Harrity -- 7
Yeah. 12 My thing is just I think we're losing track on the fact that these are licensed businesses that are licensed grocery stores. They're not licensed casinos. They're not licensed for gambling. You guys may be right, it's our fault for letting you get away with it because it's illegal. The machines are illegal. It's illegal to pay them out. You're paying them out, that's illegal. It's not registered. It's not licensed. We gave you a license as a small business to sell groceries. That's what you're licensed for, and that's what we got to come to grips with, that we did not give you a license to be a neighborhood casino. We did not give you a license to have illegal stuff going on in your thing. It may not be hurting anybody as far as you know, but they are illegal.
We can say -- that's what I'm saying about being organized. You're totally right, but we can say that same thing happens with the ATMs. ATMs is a bank. The ATM is --
They are not illegal and you are making money on the ATM, $3 a pop.
I'm trying to get there. We're trying to get there. It's not like we're not trying. We are trying to be legal. We are trying to actually have licensing. We are trying to actually have all the paperwork that you guys need for you to be safe. But like I said, we are one part. Remember, this is a two-way street. One way is really to work with you guys. We're just waiting for you guys to work with us.
But one of the things you said was that, you know, the fact of the matter is that they're doing these machines because they're oversaturated with grocery stores in neighborhoods. Maybe that's where we go, limiting the number of grocery stores per neighborhood. Would that make you feel better?
Of course not, because you would be -- if you eliminate the grocery stores, do you know how many families would that actually harm?
That's why they have to use the gambling machines to supplement their income. So if --
So if we cut the number of stores, then that would definitely take care of itself, correct?
Of course. But it doesn't matter if you have 10 stores of if you have 5. If you have 5, then the --
We got your point. We got it. Thank you for your testimony though.
That's where honest dialogue comes in. Mr. Glass, do we have the last person to testify?
Mr. Xavier, thank you for your patience. Please begin your testimony.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you to all the members. I -- like he say, my name is Juan Xavier. I partner a few business in the City of Philadelphia. I'm here not to testify for myself. I'm here to try to be part of the community in this testimony and not talking just for the business I partner in Center City in this great City of Philadelphia. But before I start, I would love to ask a few questions and introduce myself and a little bit of my background so you can understand all my point of view. My first question is going to be, is there somebody here who owns a grocery store can you please raise your hand? (Hands raised.)
Okay. There is somebody here who being robbed in the grocery store because of the machines? Oh, I love the noise. A question for you, a lot of members of this concept, do you before own a grocery store? (Two Councilmembers raised hands.)
You did? Great, I love that. Do you as members take the numbers based on your two Members with all due respect with your experience, with your investment, inventory, profit and lifestyle, do you take that numbers before into this bill and did that analysis?
So I was at 16th and Cecil B. Moore, the old Philadelphia Company store. It was a training program, but it was operated in the model of 7-Eleven and I did terrible. So I understand how it is so --
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that explanation because you better understand how struggle it is to run a business, running a grocery store day-to-day hours to make $80 sometimes. It's hard. You have to be there, you have to leave and work 16 hours a day making $5 an hour to understand how that feels being a business owner. I am talking from the bottom and (inaudible) having an inventory, getting cost and the store not getting sales because we may not have traffic. I'm getting from the point of view of the business. Now, let's go down a little calm and let me introduce myself. My name is Juan Xavier. I am the first-generation Dominican American. I am a technology expert. I have a great family who gave me the opportunity to be in college, become a systems engineer with two Master's degrees. I have a Master's degree in systems engineering and architect solutions. I used to work for Microsoft. I was years in 3 Microsoft South American market. I 4 was part of the team who created 5 Office 365. I was part of the team 6 for cloud technology with Grupo 7 Carso creating satellite network. 8 I've been in skill games for about 9 six years creating technology and 10 understanding how the system works. 11 And my next question is 12 going to be for you, Notable Members, do we understand what is skill games? Do we understand that terminology? Are we (inaudible). What is a skill language, what's that, because it's something different. I heard this terminology gambling back and forth, and we understand gambling. We understand the luckiness part. We understand the game of chance part, why this is called skill game. Why the court case back in 2013, the M.D. 965 in 2013 allowed this to become legal. Another word I heard in this Committee, in this hearing, what I understood when I was taking my citizenship test, this system in this country is checks and balance, administrative or legislative, administrative and judicial, right. You know this better than I do. In order to become legal, you need (inaudible) -- you need one of the point of view and one of the point of view have to say you are legal. But getting back to the technology and getting back to our amazing concept, do we understand what is the difference between gambling and skill games? Are we confident on that?
So can you kind of get to your point in your testimony?
Okay. What is the difference or there is some difference between skill games and gambling. There is some difference between skill games and game of the chance. There is something because it has to be something, because why that name. Simple, I will do a little brief and I will be open to any question. I am technology expert. I am not ready. I am not prepared for this. But I am pretty confident I can answer any potential question it can come.
So pretty much for me, if it walked like a duck, if it quacked like a duck, it's probably got feathers, it's a duck. And so, whether somebody says to me logically that if I press this button at a certain point, the skill of it allows the rotation of the piece to give me a payout, it's no different than if I pull that one-arm bandit and get a rotation and a probability and a percentage payout based on the algorithm that is set by that. Now, I don't know what you know, but I know if it walked like a duck, if it makes me broke like a duck, it's probably a duck. So that's my point. And whether it is a duck or a bald eagle, we need to figure out how to regulate. We need to figure out where they are. We don't know where they nest. It was testified today that we're over 50,000 machines. We don't have a clue where they are. We don't have a clue how much they made last year. We don't know much they paid out to the customer. We don't know any of those things. And my point is, this hearing is not to be against the small businesses in this room that have testified today but to figure it out. And that's our job, to try to figure out those answers.
I apologize for all the interruption, Mr. Chairman. I agree and (inaudible) your point. But before get to your point, I would love for you to understand where everything comes from, what is the difference. Game of the chance is luckiness, it's luckiness. It's gamble. It's not interaction. Who makes the last decision is the software. Who makes all of the patrons is the software, it's the machine. I am agree 100 percent to want legality. I am agree. Game of skill has three major components. Number one, who makes the last decision is you. You walk away whenever you want.
Number two, you can't see before you put a penny in there if you're going to win or you're going to lose, and you make the last decision. And you have a second part of the software to go into and just with memory, memorizing this tic-tac-toe games, you can win 105 percent of the time if you play. That is a skill because software don't make the last decision. There is a problem, 100 percent I agree. Skill game wasn't created to try to compete with casinos, to try to create mini casinos. The gentleman with the prior testimony, he did it perfect. It has to be regulated. Yes, I am agree 100 percent as the business owner and the business partner, and as the machine operator I 100 percent agree. I heard you guys keep saying your intention is not kill the small businesses. That's why I started that way. That's why I started with those questions. Solutions, yes. Kill, I feel this is not the intention with this bill. The intention with this bill 1 to me from my point of view with all due respect to this notable Council and all the members is killing the small businesses. Because me as a partner in the small business and multiple small businesses in Philadelphia, without investment, without inventory, how this machine now help to pay the mortgage.
And now, we 14 need a solution. Regulations, yes, 15 we need it. That's why we see in 16 so many years fighting this at the 17 state level to get these regulated. 18 Illegal machines, there is so many. 19
Okay. 24 Duly noted. We're going to move on 25 because I got one more one more to hear from, and I want to hear from them. They were so patient. So I'm going to give you two minutes. (Witness approached Witness table.) UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, I'm going to try to make it as brief as possible. I know it's a long night.
Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm feeling I got to go get something to eat and get hydrated, and I know you guys are --
Three-and-a-half. What was it, three-and-a-half hours. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But I'm here. I'd like to show -- tell you I appreciate that you mentioned how can we help the business owners. I'm not directly involved. I'm indirectly involved. I help a lot of them. There's a language barrier, so I'm very supportive and I have made observations through the years. One of the things is increase police presence. They're alone out there. As far as Councilwoman Lozada and Councilman Young, what you guys call a nuisance is actually security for them, believe it or not. The skill machines had actually helped them with decreasing robberies in the stores. Why? Because when you have a presence in the store, it's a deterrent for the robber to come in. They wait precisely for the moment that the store is empty to go in and do their thing. So as a result, it has decreased, the incidence of robberies. Why do they feel that you're not for the small businesses is because when sugar tax increased, that put a dent to them. Cigarette taxes, another dent. Skill machines come up, we have a savior. It has helped. There's no 4 fluff that the businesses are suffering. A store that used to make $2,000 now makes $1200, $1000 if they're lucky. I'm here because I was asked by various of the store owners that don't speak the language to communicate this to you guys. So I don't know if this would make a difference in what you feel, but it is a big help. These skilled machines is a big help to the business. It has helped them stay afloat. Literally, no BS.
I just want to say I'm not entirely sold on it deters robberies, right, especially not in Districts like mine, where police will tell you that many of these guys who take over the establishment conduct their business inside. So, yeah, they're not going to stick each other up. They're friends with one another, right. They hang around with one another. So, yeah, they may not be sticking up that business at the moment, but it's because they're all involved. And if the business does get held up or get stuck up, none of them inside or none of them who have been hanging outside loitering for hours in the day are going to give up the individual who stuck up the business. That's just my experience in my District. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Let me make a clarification here. Hold on.
I beg your pardon? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Because I don't want you to get this wrong. I'm not saying that they're working -- the way you're saying is that they're in cahoots with people that are doing bad business.
No, that's not what she said. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Did you understood that or -- I didn't understand what you were saying.
She pushed back gently that the more casino or people playing the machines creates an atmosphere that is safer for the store merchants. Is that what you said?
-- or that people being stuck up -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Because there's a large --
-- that the business being stuck up is lessened because these people are in their establishment. I'm saying in Districts like mine that is not the case. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm talking about Southwest Philly particularly.
So my point exactly. That's doesn't happen across the City, right. It depends on where you are. And in Districts like mine, that is not the case and I have to advocate, like many of my colleagues up here, we have to advocate for our constituency, right. Again, this is not about not wanting to support small businesses. This is about speaking up for the constituency that you represent. And the Districts -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We understand that. I'm just telling you what they feel, why they feel that you're against them. Because when pre-sugar tax or pre-cigarette tax, now we have a solution to the problem and now we're going to ban that as well. I'm just letting you know why they feel the way they do.
The solution that you guys came up with is not the right solution. The machines for whatever reason, they may be helping them out now in the short run. The fact -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Financially.
-- of the matter is they're not supposed to be there in the first place. A machine that pays out is not legal. Now, video games, something like that in the store that do it, that's completely different. We're talking about a machine that when somebody hits it, they go, take the ticket and they get paid, you know what I'm saying here. This is not something their license was granted for in the first place. You mentioned cigarettes. That's already -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There's a legal issue with that and that's a reason why they have it. And now, I know you're saying this is not right. But what's to say that it's not right, you know, legally. Otherwise we wouldn't be at square one, you know. And I know you're trying to correct it. You're trying to make it right because it's -- I don't know if it's a moral issue or --
I'm sorry. You can finish. I didn't mean to cut you off. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 4 I know it's a big issue but how are we going to address it, how are we going to fix it, you know. And you're thinking banning it because you feel it's morally wrong?
We're -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I mean, people are going to pay for services. There's no license.
In order for me to keep a quorum, can you finish your testimony. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, it's fine. He has a question for me?
Yeah, I have a question. I mean, essentially when some of the folks you're representing, when they go into this business, right, they're going to the business as a convenience or grocery store, from helping develop business plans for grocery stores and things like that, I have never seen this as a part of their business plan when they're opening up a grocery store to make money. And so, I just want to get the small business owners to know how we can help you in your small business endeavors for what you're licensed for, that's what we want to try to do. We want to try to lower your cost of doing business in the City. However, when you're operating in a manner that is outside the scope of your business, right, this is not a convenience. You're not selling something to the public when you have these machines in there. So why as a City, as a body when we've seen these machines have negative impacts on our communities, why should we continue to allow these things when it's already outside the scope of your business? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Does it really have a negative effect?
All right. Thank you for your testimony and I think we've received your point. There are certain questions that you're making, is it legal, is it moral. And we're not questioning the moral aspect of it. We are questioning the legality. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I just hope you guys come up with a great solution. I hope that the business owners are able to continue business. One way to help, I don't think it will happen. Let's cut back on the sugar tax. Let's cut back on the cigarettes and let them keep it within their scope so that we don't need skill machines if you don't want them there, and let's have businesses operate as it was operating prior to the damage that was done when we increased those taxes. That might be a solution.
Thank you for that. And for the record, none of these individuals voted for the sugar tax. That was all me. I apologize. I apologize. With that, do we have any others to testify?
I appreciate your testimony. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you for your time.
I appreciate your testimony. I appreciate your patience and I understand when we are better for it because of your testimony. Thank you. This concludes our public hearing of the Committee on Public Safety dealing with Bill No. 6 240010. We will now conduct our public meeting. And with that, we have a quorum. And the Chair recognizes Member Lozada for an amendment to Bill No. 240010.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I offer an amendment to Bill No. 240010. A copy of the amendment has been circulated to all members of this Committee. I move that the amendment be approved. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that the amendment to Bill No. 24 240010 be amended. All those in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. The Chair again recognizes Vice-Chair Lozada for a motion on Bill No. 240010 as amended.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill No. 240010 as amended be reported from this Committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next Council session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been approved -- it has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 25 240010 as amended be reported from this Committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All those in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. Bill No. 240010 as amended has been approved. Thank you. This concludes our business for this Committee on Public Safety, and thank you for your endurance.
Thank you, Chair. (Committee on Public Safety concluded at 4:50 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I, hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence noted are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me in the foregoing matter, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. __________________________________ TANEHA CARROLL