Well let's hear from the arborist then we'll get to you, Steve. Okay.
please spell your full name and i'll swear you in
i'm sorry who are we looking for now jason blue bar l-u-b-a-r but okay here he is
He's ready to be sworn in.
Chairman, you're muted.
Mr. Lubar, please spell your full name and I'll swear you in.
Mr. Lubar, we're not able to hear you.
and it doesn't appear that you're muted what um mr chair the um the code to unmute on the phone
is it star six hit um nine star nine and then star six jason if you're on the phone um give
that a shot i think we don't have them on the phone oh it's on the computer okay okay well
we do have a report from jason as well as his resume um in our exhibit packet so can you hear
me now oh yes yes okay there it is please spell your full name and i'll swear you in j-a-s-o-n
l-u-b-a-r do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
i do thank you uh please proceed jason we have your resume on the screen can you just give
the board a real brief background on what you do for a living and you know the degree of your
experience in that work the the uh his resume or his information is blocked out at least on my
screen how's that there you go there you go got it all right i work at morris arboretum uh doing
arboricultural related consulting i'm a board certified master arborist and a member of
the American Society of Consulting Arborists. And part of what I do is work on
projects like this where we deal with ordinances, tree-related ordinances
in different projects. So I teach professional level courses. I'm the president of our local
ISA chapter. That's the International Society of Arboriculture chapter. And I'm a local tree expert.
okay so um we would ask uh if the board has any objections to uh mr lubar being uh qualified as
an expert uh arborist don't see any reason not to object i believe i am i have some examination i
want to do on that issue okay okay um mr lubar um steve okay go ahead steve i'm sorry um can you
can you tell us what your formal education is around forestry and arborist?
Sure. I'm a board certified master arborist, which means I've taken tests through the
International Society of Arboriculture. I'm a certified arborist. I went to school for
business administration, but for the past 20 years, I've been working in this field.
So you haven't received any degree in forestry or in agriculture?
Correct.
And were there forestry schools available to you at the time that you were pursuing this field?
When you say you're a certified board arborist.
Board certified master arborist.
What does that mean?
What does the board certification say that you can do?
Well, the ISA board certification tests my applied knowledge, not general knowledge, but applied knowledge in arboriculture.
trying to figure out what's the difference from what well it's not it's not a degree
Trying to figure out what's the difference from what.
it's a certification so the ISA certifies that I have this knowledge I also have the
tree risk assessment qualification and that's a qualification that just says that I you know
qualify i've taken the test and i qualify for that um whatever that is so i'm certified
is it correct but for the certification you qualify you qualify as what was that you were
asking steve a well he versus i believe mr chair i believe he is a board certified master arborist
according to his resume but he doesn't have any formal education degrees in in that field
Could I, could I redirect them? That's what I'm trying to understand. What's the difference? Yep. Steve. I'm sorry, Mr. Brandon.
um my my one question at this point for jason would be jason is it is it uncommon for others
in your field including others that have your certifications to um not have a university
granted degree in um you know in our arbor sorry arbor culture or uh you know is is it uncommon
No, it's not uncommon. The people who are in our industry, especially consultants, come at it from many different backgrounds, many different disciplines.
So a prerequisite is not going to forestry school or arboricultural school. You could just start working in a for-profit arborist company. You don't need to go to school.
Understood. I think, you know, we'll rest on that in terms of Jason's qualifications.
I'm going to be okay with that also. It sounds like this field is more of like a guild,
kind of an apprentice situation where it's, my college had a very famous forestry school,
but apparently a lot of them, I guess, don't have a lot of schools with forestry around.
okay thank you mr master thank you all right um so jason um to bring up uh the landscape plan again
um is is it correct that you provided um what we might call it a tree assessment um
data set that sort of served as the the starting point for this landscape plan right we did the
tree inventory and assessment which involved looking at each trees assessing their conditions
and uh you know providing recommendations for this assignment uh the assignment was to
look at the trees in light of the ordinance okay um is is there um you know can can you walk us
through, I guess, in brief, the conclusions that are in your report that is featured in our exhibit
packet? Sure. The same thing as what Laura just stated, that given the design constraints,
the design that we see, that we've seen here, that there is no real way to achieve the tree
replacement ordinance given what was there and given the footprint of any buildings on site.
Okay. Okay, thanks. Rachel, do you have anything else?
I just would want to hear from you, Jason, your thoughts on if we were to try to accomplish
it by adding jam-packing trees in, in your opinion, I guess I'll rephrase it this way,
in your opinion, is the tree planting strategy and landscape plan that we've provided for
this project in your expert opinion uh appropriate and healthy and uh meets the
hardship requirements for the tree replacement variants as best as as you can uh explain
i'm gonna object that that calls for a legal opinion as to what meets the hardship requirements
and he's not qualified to give that opinion can you answer that mr lubar um well not for the
hardship but for the design and the constraints on the design and what trees are there and what
we would like to put back there uh you know i think this is a great plan for putting back
great plan for putting back diversity and putting back the number of trees that will eventually
diversity and putting back the number of trees that will
hopefully grow to replace the trees that are being taken out. One thing we have to remember is that
the trees on the site, we want to preserve all the trees on the site that we can. And trees have a
root plate and the roots really don't grow much past a foot and a half deep, maybe two foot deep
on the site so if you go around and and if we were to replace the trees per the ordinance you know
using three inch caliper you know three inch diameter trees uh four inch diameter trees you
would end up causing great harm to the trees that are on site because you would have to dig
you know remove pretty much a lot of their root systems to accommodate the new trees
Using more smaller trees, you can place them around the roots of the trees that are there now.
So it'll preserve the trees that are there now, and it'll allow these new trees to grow,
whereas if you try to shoehorn all the trees necessary onto the site,
Given the building footprint as it stands now, it would do severe harm to the existing trees.
My last question, Jason, is just when you did the report, if you could talk a bit about the existing conditions on the site and the current tree species that are there versus our planned proposal and your expert opinion on the appropriateness of what's going to be planted versus what is there now.
Right. As Laura said, there's a lot of invasive exotic trees. These trees are not native to America and they're invasive. So they can come in and destabilize the environment like we've seen in the Wissahicken with Norway maples coming in, taking over, sort of bullying out the native trees that we want because the native trees provide so many of the benefits to the environment.
So we're removing a lot of those invasive exotic trees on the site and we're putting
back a higher diversity, a much higher diversity of native species.
So I think that will be very positive for this area in the long term.
Thanks, Jason.
I think we'll rest on our questions for now.
If Steve has any otherwise, I'll move over.
And would it be possible for me to share my screen also?
Jason, I'm showing you page 99 in the developer's exhibit binder, which is this the representation
of how the trees look now on the site?
yes okay um so would you would it be fair to characterize this site as a heavily wooded site
yes it's a a wooded site and the trees um that we're seeing here uh right uh where my cursor
is now this is the existing apartment buildings off of lane avenue right correct and there's a
fair number of large trees that are very close to that property line is that would that be correct
uh very close while it's across the driveway there and then into the site yeah um and then
there's a a fair number of trees that like on that i'm showing you here that are very close to
these existing buildings over here right those are trees on that edge uh right below the steep slope
So in your opinion, do trees like we see in this wooded area, do they provide a kind of a cooling effect for the buildings that are in the immediate vicinity?
Yes, I would say so. Given the direction of the sun, that their shade can be cast on the buildings perhaps and on the driveway, so there is some cooling effect.
so um isn't it true that in the project that you're that you're testifying for that many of
these trees in this area here are being removed and no longer are are going to be providing shade
to the apartment object to this line of questioning unless mr masters can demonstrate
which of the variant standards this pertains to because i i don't see the temperature or coolness
as relevant to the refusal or any of the other varied standard.
as relevant to the refusal or any of the other uh variant standard unless it pertains to human
safety or something it's public welfare we're talking about the urban heat island effect and
if you're eliminating um the cooling of these trees that have been used to cool and and preserve the
quality of life of of the residents in in this building in this very large apartment building
and also in these structures what it appears is that the the tree design the the tree redesign of
this wooded area is prioritizing the cooling effects for the new project and the new residents
that are going to be in this area but it's taking away um the same kind of cooling effect for the
apartments on Wayne Avenue and in this area and so I believe that that goes directly to the issue
of hardship and and the and the and the grant or the not of grant of a variance because we're now
looking at a negative impact i just steve i want the board to have a chance to rule on whether or
not this is relevant testimony to this case i don't believe it is and i would ask steve do you
have any expertise in cooling of trees or do you have anything to show that the way that we have
replaced the trees um well i'm going to go into more testimony with you with your witnesses as
to where you're replacing the trees and where they're not um but at a general site plan and
you're not looking at the landscape plan so i don't know that that this can specifically show
what exact trees we're even referring to well the plan will show the before and after i think that's
right right so look can we move on to the plan then i think we've seen this sure okay sure so
um the um what page is your plan on rachel in our packet yeah go ahead um 81
no that's the site plan the it's 97 the landscape plan it's 97
uh this is 97 you're on 101 oh oh so i was looking at the page numbers themselves okay
oh sorry yeah all right um
Wasn't there a different diagram that you were just showing to Jason?
So, Jason, these circles here, these are small trees that are being planted up here.
Is that correct?
When you say small, I believe so.
But I think the idea was to make them small so they would fit more of them in there.
And over time, they would grow.
Right.
But the circles are the canopy diameter.
Would that be correct?
Yeah, the replacement trees.
Right.
These are all replacement trees.
And so, but what we just saw before were large trees all along this perimeter, right?
Correct.
They're fully mature trees, which is what you showed before.
Right, right.
and now these are so what what's the approximate height of these trees i would uh depends which
ones we're talking about probably uh 17 22 feet let's just say 20 feet for the larger ones 20 25
feet perhaps and what's the height of the trees that you that you're removing
man um if i remember correctly the larger ones are about 75 feet
okay what is what is if if the trees that we're looking at uh the replacement trees
what is the gen a a average height of at maturity oh maturity it would be the the same the 75 80
you're removing okay yeah but how long will it take to get them from the 17 feet to the 75 feet
uh well that's conjecture relevance of that what does that have to do with the variance
that's why it's about it's about the well if we're looking at the impact on these on these
adjoining properties and the and the change and and the increase in in heat in for these buildings
because they no longer are shaded by these trees then how long are we looking at the impact forward
are we talking about 20 to 40 years i think look i think our position and mr chair you you can you
can allow mr masters to continue is that that this is not the type of safety or wellness issue that
the code contemplates for a variance we otherwise every development project in philadelphia with any
trees on the site be ineligible for a variance the adjacent sites being supposedly hotter for
some temporary number of years simply is not an adequate reason well that's your argument
well that's your argument i mean brandon that's an argument you can make but but the light and
i mean brandon that's an argument you can make but but the light and air and the
air and the impact on the light and air of adjoining properties the air the air is the
heated air versus cooled air from the trees we're talking here about look one at a time
i don't know if it's relevant but we can stipulate that there will be a lesser uh degree of shade
well mr masters has produced no experts or no reports that discuss any of that um and but this
this is not my burden rachel again i think your burden on a variance case and i'm raising questions
with your own experts who are telling me that it's not going to be as cool for for perhaps 20 30 40
years in the future for these people i don't believe that i don't believe that that was stated
And he said it's conjecture, Steve.
So let's not perjure ourselves.
It's not conjecture that trees take a long time to grow.
But I'm fine to re-ask the question, Mr. Lubar, how long is it going to take these trees to get to the same height that the replacement, that the trees that you're chopping down are at the moment?
Well, I'm not chopping the trees down.
but uh if i if you held my feet to the fire i would say about oh 30 to 40 years
okay so i might not be an expert rachel but i think i kind of like was pretty close to the mark
there um so i mean here and the reason the reason mr chairman and members of the board that i think
this is important is because this is as we saw before this is a profoundly wooded area
This is not a typical lot in the city of Philadelphia with a few trees. This is its own little woods. And so their design intentionally is removing trees and replacing them with small trees for the neighboring properties, but is clustering the good effects of the cooling for the trees for this own property.
Now, that's their right, I suppose, as property owners to selectively choose which trees remain and which trees are taken away.
But the impact is that this is going to detrimentally impact the neighboring buildings and it's going to benefit the new buildings.
And that's not an equity, that is not consistent with equity or with a way to distribute trees.
So let me just ask Mr. Lubar.
Let me ask you a question.
who's maintaining this this wooded area now who maintains it
could anyone answer that well that we we could bring on the property owner to speak to that if
the board would like i think that's just curious no one's maintaining it basically i mean i don't