COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, 11/15/00 4:04 p.m. - - - BILL 000659 - An ordinance amending Title of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of 9 Individual Conduct and Activity" by adding Section 10-828 entitled Reporting Requirements Upon the 10 Application or Renewal of a License to Carry a Firearm," by requiring upon the application or 11 renewal of a license to carry a firearm concealed in a vehicle or one about the person of an individual, certain reporting requirements, under certain terms and conditions. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ, Chairman COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS-BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X BILL NO. 000659 STEVEN BLACKBURN, X-Offenders for Community Empowerment .............................. WAYNE JACOBS, X-Offenders for Community Empowerment .............................. 7 BILAL QAYYAM, President, Father's Day Rally Committee, Inc. .......................... 23 8 BILL OWEN, Pennsylvania Against Handgun 9 Violence ................................. 32 10 ANTHONY HOLLOWAY, Phila. Anti Drug Anti Violence Network ................................... 47 SHEENA ROBESON .............................. 48 SARIF T. STREET, Chief Legislative Advisor to State Senator Shirley Kitchen .............. 58 ANGELICA MATOS ............................... 64 BRADFORD RICHMOND, Special Assistant to Commissioner John Timoney ............................... 67 JOHN MCLEES, School District of Phila. ........ 77 JOHN MIROWITZ ................................. 82 3 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 P R O C E E D I N G S
Anyone who is here for the lead in the water hearing, because the Mayor announced a briefing at 4 o'clock this afternoon and we're beginning this hearing on a very specific issue that is very important, we are not going to have time. And given the importance of the lead in the water hearing, we're recessing that hearing until Monday at 3 o'clock. We figured that we could not adequately question and get information of the School Board and the EPA in 45 minutes or an hour. And so to act responsibly and to be able to really bring out all of the information that parents, such as myself that have kids in the public school system, need to know about lead in the water, we are recessing the hearing until o'clock on Monday. We have very important issues that we're taking on at o'clock, and the Mayor has called for a briefing of City Council. So that is the reason we are recessing the hearing on lead in the water until Monday. Now we have before us Bill No. 000659 in this City Council Committee meeting on Public 4 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Safety. Darrell Clarke is present and Frank Rizzo, Blondell Reynolds-Brown, Joan Krajewski, and the Clerk will please read the title of the bill.
Bill No. 000659, an ordinance amending Title of the Philadelphia 8 Code, entitled "Regulation of Individual Contact 9 and Activity," by adding Section 10-828 entitled 10 "Reporting Requirements Upon the Application or Renewal of a License to Carry a Firearm," by requiring upon the application or renewal of a license to carry a firearm concealed in a vehicle or one about the person of an individual, certain reporting requirements, under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you. It seems that periodically this Council and this legislative body has tried to advance the issue of safety in our streets and safety for our children. Every time we go through these things, something happens that really brings everything into a picture and clarifies the issue for those of us who believe that guns kill people and that we need to be able to have an understanding of 5 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 what society needs to do to begin stopping the proliferation of all types of guns in our streets. Obviously, this bill will confront the most extreme pressures against it. We will legislate it, and those individuals that do not believe in the issue that guns have to be brought under control will take it to court or take it to the State House and the State Senate and we have to be resolute that at one point in time Philadelphia has to be made safe for all of the citizens, especially our kids. Yesterday's headlines really bring this into tremendous focus. We need to do something about this. And this time I think Councilman Clarke whose district and our neighbor suffers through this, I think is an idea whose time has come and an idea that this Council has to wrestle and pass. Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First I'd like to thank my colleagues and members of the committee for considering Bill 25 000659. I'd like to thank the many people in the 6 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 audience. I see some of my friends on the front row with those great signs. Give you all a shout-out. First I'd like to say that by no way, shape, or form are we attempting to deny individuals of this Commonwealth and of this fine United States the ability to own a gun, nor are we attempting to regulate their ability to own a gun. We are simply trying to create an environment where we will have responsible gun owners. As indicated by the Chairman's statements earlier, both in 1964 by then Mayor Tate and later by Councilman Ortiz in 1996, the City of Philadelphia attempted to legislate gun issues but we were struck down in the court. Some people say that current state law prohibits municipalities from regulating the lawful ownership, possession, or transportation of firearms we carry to transport for lawful purposes. This bill will simply add a reporting requirement that I think would work in conjunction with existing state law. Some have argued that any regulation 7 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 that in any way affects guns is preempted by current State laws on this subject. In reference to this bill, there are three provisions that those who make that argument cite: First, Pennsylvania state law states in Chapter 18, Section 6120 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes that no county, municipality, or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms. The ordinance in front of this Committee does not prohibit or restrict ownership or possession. What this bill simply requires is simple reporting what guns that a person has or permitted to carry a concealed weapon. A person, even in violation of this law, could still own, transport, or transfer a firearm. 4 entitled Registration of Firearms also prohibits any government or law enforcement agency to create, maintain, or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. This provision has not been litigated since its enactment. It is entirely 8 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 possible that this provision will prevent a complete registry of all gun ownership. This bill, even interpreted in the most contradictory way, would only list guns owned by those who apply for permit to carry those same concealed weapons on Philadelphia streets. Third, some have suggested that the Uniform Firearms Act needs to be uniform. In support of this contention, they cite Section 11 6109 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Status Title 18. However, the provision immediately prior specifically creates provision for carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia. This provision which was inserted into state law many years ago underscores the importance of the problem in Philadelphia as opposed to other areas of the state. Further, the ordinance does not add any more requirements to current State law. The reporting requirement is concurred with the application of a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The application for a permit is not contingent upon the reporting requirement. What this ordinance simply seeks to 9 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 accomplish is to find out information regarding those who have purchased guns and applied for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The current Pennsylvania State Police form does not even inquire as to what guns will be carried with this permit. This information is critically important as we help stop the serious problem of gun violence. The 1999 Firearms Trace Results Report produced by the Philadelphia Police Department and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms confirms that for the last three years of the survey, identifies Philadelphia as the major source area for acquisition of illegal guns.
Over 260 of the guns used in crimes committed in Philadelphia were committed by people under the age of 18. Worse yet, guns purchased lawfully in Philadelphia are also major contributors to crime throughout the Delaware Valley region. I hope that this bill will help to solve the serious problem that gun violence creates in our neighborhoods. I look forward to your support in this issue. 10 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 I also, by no means, feel that this is the panacea. This is just one piece of the puzzle. We have a long way to go as it relates to firearms in our communities, and hopefully, this bill today will spread a dialogue that will ultimately end up into solving this very, very, very bad problem. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Wayne Jacobs. Wayne, Steven, come up, okay? (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon, Councilmembers. My name is Steven Blackburn. I'm representing an organization X-Offenders for Community Empowerment. It is an honor for X-Offenders for Community Empowerment to have the opportunity to testify about reducing the flow of illegal guns into the hands of the unauthorized. In 1998, the Philadelphia Police recovered 5,504 illegal guns; In 1999, 4,773. In 1998, the Philadelphia Firearms Trafficking Task Force initiated traces on 3,108 firearms which could be directly associated with an arrest. 1,810 firearms could be traced to 11 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 their sources. Another 1,298 firearms could not be traced due to either serial numbers being removed or for other reasons. In 1999, the task force traced 2,886 firearms with 92 percent of these involved in the top five crime categories: Violation of the Uniforms Firearms Act, assault, narcotics, robbery and murder. 1,906 of these firearms were traced to their sources. 980 were unsuccessful tracers. In these two years, 1998 and 1999, 2,278 untraceable firearms were confiscated during arrests for crimes. 834 untraceable firearms or 36 percent of the total had their serial numbers obliterated. These firearms have entered hands of the criminal element through straw purchases or street dealing. Firearms with obliterated serial numbers represent the conscious attempt to conceal original ownership. Firearms, unlike drugs, start legal and become illegal. Drugs begin illegal and they end illegal. Since firearms start legal, the proliferation of illegal firearms can be controlled. The ordinance introduced by 12 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Councilman Clarke is a preventive action that will reduce legal firearms from becoming illegal by making it a requirement that all licensees be accountable for all firearms purchased. This ordinance is aimed at reducing straw purchases. My support for this ordinance 8 amending Title 10 if the Philadelphia Code comes from my personal experience of the harm that can caused by the proliferation illegal guns. I am a commuted lifer, convicted nearly years ago for 12 a murder in which an illegally obtained handgun 13 was used in a senseless act of violence. The 14 circumstance of case is a perfect testimony of 15 what this ordinance is meant to eliminate. What 16 started as a fistfight between two young men, 17 myself and the victim, escalated into a senseless 18 killing when my accomplice, a juvenile at the 19 time, brought to bear the illegally obtained 20 weapon in his possession. 21 Although the gun lobbyists are quick 22 to assert that guns don't kill and that people 23 kill, because of my knowledge of the people 24 involved in this case, I know for the fact that 25 the presence of the illegal weapon and the ease 13 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 at which the weapon was obtained was a major contributing factor in this crime. X-Offenders for Community Empowerment uses life experiences of X-Offenders in supporting campaigns to reduce the flow of illegal firearms into our communities and to give our youth a chance at a life free of fear. In most cases such as this, the community loses, too, the victim and the perpetrator for crimes that could be prevented. Our platform is prevention, understanding that it takes three elements to commit a crime: The will, the ability, and the opportunity. By removing illegal firearms in our communities we are in effect taking the opportunity away for crime to happen. As a former lifer who has been given a second chance at life, I am dedicated to creating safer community environment for all children to go grow into responsible adulthood. X-Offenders for Community Empowerment wishes to thank Councilman Darrell Clarke for taking this courageous initiative and introducing an ordinance that will prevent crime and not just 14 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 deal with the effects of crime.
We pray that this ordinance will gain unanimous support in Council. Thank you.
Yes. I just want to state for the record that this bill was cosponsored by Councilman Ortiz and myself. Thank you, Councilman Ortiz.
One question. When you say that it was easily accessible and easily obtainable, when that happened, where did the gun come from?
It purchased from a person that was selling guns out of a bar, a local bar.
Mm-hmm. And where did he get the gun from, do you know, the guy who was selling it at the bar?
He obtained in 15 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 legally, yes -- illegally.
Like many of the guns in the neighborhood usually are gotten.
Either a gun was stolen or could have been sold by the original owner and the serial numbers obliterated or it could have been stolen and serial numbers erased and then sold again on the street.
Do you see this legislation as an infringement on a right.
We're not trying to prevent people from owning guns, but if they have purchased guns, we want them to be accountable for the ones that they have purchased. If they owned it, we want them to know where their guns are. If they're stolen, that should be reported. We don't want people to just buy guns and to be able to sell it by straw purchases and not be held responsible if they buy them legally.
Do you have anything to say? Do you have a question? 16 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Councilmember Rizzo.
Thank you. So I can better understand the process, I know when I look at a permit to carry, it has the description of the weapon on the permit and it also states on some permits the specific weapon .38 Colt and others. When you purchase a gun today legally, isn't there a paper trail to the owner at that point? Don't we know when a gun is legally purchased who purchased it?
Maybe the sponsors of this legislation have to jump in here if that's appropriate.
Councilman, on the permit to carry, there is no reference to any gun whatsoever. It simply states the name, the address, and the signature of Police Commissioner. At the time of the request or the issuance of the permit to carry at no time are you asked what guns you are asking for a permit to carry.
You don't put the serial number of the gun, you don't do that. 17 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
On the permit that I personally know about, there is a description of the weapon, not the serial number, but it will describe the gun that you're supposed to carry at least.
My gentleman in the back will tell you later on, my expert in guns, my adversary of years on this issue.
Then at one time the description of the weapon was on the permit, why did that stop?
That's just because we have the NRA, we have the lobbying groups that are present that cross the United States and they have put pressure of legislative bodies to end -- I mean, right now there's a battle being fought in the country about gun 18 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 shows. And you can go to a gun show and just buy whatever guns you want, and the NRA and groups like that are just saying -- because we want registration of those guns.
So you're telling me that the NRA was lobbied and had what was once on our permit, the description of the gun, removed?
Well, the gun lobbying groups of this country that are pro-gun really feel that guns can be bought whenever they want to get bought and there should be pretty much no restrictions on the ownership and buying of guns in this country, very little of that, because they feel that that's a constitutional right and that government cannot regulate that right.
My point. I love the sponsors of the bill to show me where the police department who issues the permit was forced to do take the description --
We will have the police department testify and you can ask the police department when they come on. 19 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Wayne, do you have anything?
My name is Wayne Jacobs. I'm a cofounder of X-Offenders for Community Empowerment. Basically, what I wanted to speak on is the fact that how gun owners can easily sell guns and never have to be accountable for the guns that they sell because there is no 15 follow-up. In reference to what I'm saying, it's like right now there is no law that clearly states that if a gun owner loses his gun that he must report his gun missing. What most gun owners do is voluntarily report that information. What that do is give the unscrupulous gun owners the ability to sell guns under the table and never have to report them missing. You know, they can walk away from that responsibility. Also, this legislation here would address the ones that is trying to hide their 20 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 identity by erasing the serial numbers off the guns. This way the guns cannot be traced back to them if it's committed in a crime. But this legislation here will make that particular gun owner responsible because at the time of renewal he'd have to account for them guns. And this will be a way to prevent unscrupulous gun owners from selling guns that they can get away with it.
I will read what it says, the legislation, so that -- just in addition it says that require the applicant to provide the following information prior to the processing of an application, the name, address, occupation, place of birth of the applicant, date and hour of the application, the caliber, length of barrel, make, model, an manufacturer's number of all guns registered with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania at the home, business, or any other property leased, owned the by the applicant or under the control or access of the applicant at the time of the application. This information is not now required. We believe that if the police department had this information, those guns that are utilized in 21 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 crimes will be much better traceable, help in solving the crimes, and be an aid to police work. And I believe that one of the biggest supporter we have is really the police departments of the Commonwealth and the country. Wayne, do you have anything else?
Mr. Chairman, I would just like to state for the record I hold before me a permit to carry --
Could you put it on the record what it says? What is the information required?
For the record, permit to carry, the name of the individual who has the permit to carry is Darrell Clarke -- I think I know him -- 1959 Myrtlewood Street. It tells my age -- I'm not going to say that on the record -- my height, my weight -- I don't want to talk about weight either today -- date of registration, reason for issuance of permit, it says self-defense, signed by Police Commissioner 22 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Neal and myself. And at the bottom it says license to carry firearms. No place on this permit --
And they never asked you a question as to what guns you own, how many, and what caliber, whatever?
Never asked me a question about what guns I own, what guns I plan on carrying as a result of the issuance of this permit.
For the record, could we report that at one time on a permit to carry there was a line that indicated the type of weapon, but even at that it was very lose because it was open ended. They said that .38-caliber weapon and others, so others kind of --
But still there was at least the description of a weapon that that individual carried.
Bilal Qayyum, my friend. (Witness comes forward.) 23 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Bilal, you know the drill. Identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon, Councilman Clarke, Councilman Rizzo, and Councilperson Ortiz. My name is Bilal -- and Councilwoman Miller. I'm sorry. My name is Bilal Qayyum, that's B-I-L-A-L; Qayyum is Q-A-Y-Y-U-M. I'm the president of the Father's Day Rally Committee. A little over years ago, a group 12 of African-American men came together in the City of Philadelphia to form an organization around promoting positive images of African-American men, and the first project that we took on was to deal with the outlandish violence level taking place in the City of Philadelphia. In 1989 there was 501 murders in the City of Philadelphia. Out of 501 murders, 385 of them were African-Americans with 365 being African-American males. The next year, there was 526 murders in the City of Philadelphia. It was the highest number ever witnessed in this city for murders. And out of that 526, 400 of them were African-American males. So we kicked off a 24 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 campaign to bring to the conscious levels of the citizens of the City of Philadelphia the high murder rate taking place, and we probably have organized more marches and rallies than anyone else in the City of Philadelphia to reduce violence in this city over the last ten years. And we have seen homicides drop from those years of 501 murders to last year I think it was 596 (sic) murders, but out of that last year, the lowest rate in 10 years out of the 296, 211 of them were African-American males. So our position has been very clear over the last 10 years that, one, there's been too many homicides in the City of Philadelphia and too many in particular as it relates to the African-American community and the African-American male community. Eighty percent of these homicides have been committed by individuals with the instrument of guns as the instrument used in homicides. So we take a very strong and proactive position to support any legislation that calls for any kind of restrictions or gun control. We see the bill 25 that Councilman Clarke and Councilman Ortiz has 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 introduced, Bill 000659, as a step. We don't necessarily see it, as Councilman Clarke stated, as a solution, but we see it as a step that is needed. Every murder that's committed in this country, there are a hundred other acts of violence. And if you take the national statistics between 60 and 70 percent of all homicides are committed by acts of violence where a gun is the instrument and you start multiplying that, there are thousands and thousands of citizens in this country that are victims of gun violence in this country. So once again, any kind of legislation that would help to reduce the availability of guns to the tracking of guns so we can figure out how many guns there are out there, we support. So wholeheartedly, Father's Day Rally Committee is in support of Bill 000659 introduced by Councilman Ortiz and Councilman Clarke.
Bilal, you and I have been -- I don't know how many corners of this city. We began the process of trying to legislate against assault weapons in 1987. We 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 finally passed it. It wasn't in '96, it was in '92. The Supreme Court case was finally heard in '96, finally. But part of the problem that we have had in trying to deal with this problem is that as we begin to act as a responsible body to look out for the health and welfare of the citizens of Philadelphia, more powerful political forces come into play. And what happened with the assault weapon is that once they lost, because they lost in court and they found out that the bill was legal, at least the court said so at that point, then they went to the legislature and had a preemption clause put into the Uniform Firearms Act that specifically was directed at the assault weapons ban and specifically directed at Philadelphia. I think this bill can pass legal muster. But I have no illusions that once this bill passes that the scenario will shift to Harrisburg to specifically put legislation in Harrisburg that will prevent Philadelphia specifically from passing legislation that regulates guns in this manner. I have no 25 illusions that that will happen. But I hope that 27 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 by that time that the people of Philadelphia, and I think this is what Councilman Clarke and I would hope, is that we are so prepared for that that there's really an uproar, really that it against to take place, that it begins the message to go out across because we've shown in this election that we can come out and vote but we have to show it in every election because the only way we can prevent the legislature from doing that to us is by us putting people in the legislature in the executive House that really responds to these interests. Councilman Clarke?
Just for the record I just wanted to state -- thank you, Mr. Chairman -- that I, too, have walked with streets with Mr. Qayyum and you have done a great job in your work out in the community in creating a positive role model for the many youth out in our communities. I want to thank you for your work. One other thing I wanted to say with respects to this particular bill, I want to say while Mr. Jacobs was here, the basis for us drafting this bill started on a corner at 25th 28 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 and Sergeant and I was talking to Mr. Jacobs at a function over at a church and he alerted me to the fact that you having these problems with the inability to trace these numerous illegal weapons. I heard what he said and later on that night I thought about it and I asked Mr. Brown on my staff to research some information and draft it and talk to Councilman Ortiz about his experiences as it relates to the prior legislation, and I thought this was the appropriate way to address this issue and get that dialog started, so I want to thank you, Mr. Jacobs, for bending my ear that day. Thank you.
Yes. MR QAYYUM: If I'm allowed to do that, Mr. Chairman. In your comments about it probably will be challenged, forward movement there are forces that challenge it, but I think also on the state level, I agree with you, there needs to be continued dialogue and I think that there's now continued dialogue going on now that 29 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 I'm aware of across this state of forces who are calling for some kind of control. I think the problem -- and I think this what we all have to articulate is that it's seen as an urban problem more so than a rural problem and some way or another we have to convince our brothers and sisters in the rural communities and our brothers and sisters on our side of the aisle, Councilman Rizzo, that it's a problem that affects one community but it's a problem that affects all communities. I really believe until you witness it -- and I would ask you just say to the Council folks that I had a very unpleasant opportunity. One evening me and my wife went to the Olive Garden in Jenkintown to eat and we were coming back home on Old York Road, I live in east Oak Lane section of the city, and when we were coming back we came down 13th Street and I saw this body laying in the middle of the street and a young man over the top of the body hollering and screaming. So I pulled over, got out my car, and the young man laying in the middle of the street had been shot. He was still alive. He was bleeding from his neck. My wife got out the car 30 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 and took scarf off and wrapped the scarf around his neck. We tried to stop the bleeding. I had my cell phone so I called the police. And within five to ten minutes, the police officer and the police did come and took the man to Einstein. This young man was years old. He died. The 8 young man who did the shooting was 16 years old 9 and it was over an argument. The gun -- I talked 10 to the police a few days later. The gun used was 11 a gun that was stolen and it was a register gun 12 but it was a stolen gun. So I say this to say 13 that until you witness -- we can all hear about 14 tragedies, but until you witness and a lot of 15 folks in a lot of communities in the City of 16 Philadelphia do witness what I'm saying, but 17 until you personally witness to see someone die 18 right in front of you that had been a victim of 19 gunshot, it's another level, Councilman Ortiz. 20 And I guess our tragedy, you know, there's also 21 positive things and I think that incident has 22 constantly renewed my strength to continue to 23 fight to bring some kind of sense to this madness that's going on in our communities.
There was a 31 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 shoot-out right in front of my door. I think a lot of us, I think, if you go around this table here -- I don't know about Frank, but when you say urban problem, to me urban problem as those people see it out there means African-American and the Latino, and this is not just an urban problem. But I believe that if you go down this table, each one of us has an experience very similar to the one you had, probably more than one, and I think that's the reality that we have to change, that we cannot just say, well, you know we talk about this and this reality is so commonplace among our folk. MR QAYYUM: Mm-hmm.
Kids four and five years old do not find it strange and they are able to identify -- I have gone to schools in the barrio and in North Philadelphia and other places where kids are able to identify -- usually when you hear the boom boom, a kid is able to tell you what almost the caliber of the gun. When a 4th-grader or 3rd-grader is able to tell that, you know that we have problems in our neighborhood that go way beyond what some other 32 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 people say. Thank you. MR QAYYUM: Thank you.
Bill Owens and Anthony Holloway and Sheena Robinson. (Witnesses come forward.)
You can begin identifying yourself for the record. And you're Miss Sheena Robinson, right?
For the record, my name doesn't have an S on the end of it. Bill Owens is the governor of Colorado where I just moved from and I'm really glad to get away and have a separation on that issue, but I see I still have 33 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 it here. I am the Executive Director of --
There were two states that passed legislation by vote in the western part of the country November 7th, right?
And Oregon, yes. I come from the organization in Colorado that put the initiative together to close the gun show loophole there. I'm very proud of that election and the people of Colorado and Oregon for standing up for what we believe is right. My remarks will be rather brief today because I've been on the job three days and in that time I found that I can't get my arms completely around party politic of Pennsylvania, so I'll try to confine my remarks to this one issue today. Pennsylvanians Against Handgun Violence was organized, it's been around the state about ten years, it's a statewide grassroots organization and it's organized to 34 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 promote and support gun safety laws and programs that will make our community safer and keep weapons from falling into the hands of people who should not have them. Most Pennsylvanians, and indeed I think most Americans, are concerned about the level of firearm violence in society today. The last figures I've seen reflect that some 33,000 people die in America from firearm violence. Of those, more than 10 a day are under the age of 19. Also, the last figure I saw that there were 391,000 crimes that involved firearms in the United States, and I believe that was from the year 1997. The last year figures are available. We come here today in support of 000659 because we believe that one way to address the issue of gun violence in society is by passing ordinances that require additional responsibility from those who ask society to allow them for whatever reason to carry potentially lethal weapons in our midst. Congressman John McCain in the last election taped a spot for people of Colorado and Oregon in which he talked about rights and 35 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 responsibilities, the right of Americans to own firearms, but the responsibilities that go along with it, and I think that's what 000659 addresses in part. A recent poll by the Violence Policy Center indicates that 60 percent of Pennsylvanians favor more restrictive concealed carry laws. Those of us in that 60 percent, including the members of Pennsylvanians Against Handgun Violence want our public officials to have as much information as possible available to help them solve crimes committed with both illegally and legally purchased weapons and to help stop the flow of weapons into the hands of people who should have not them, criminals, children, people with mental histories, histories of violence, domestic restraining orders. We believe 000659 is a good step in that direction, and we encourage its passage. Thank you.
You talk about responsibility and obviously let us assume that there is a right to own a gun in this country. It's a right I don't believe is there, but let's 36 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 assume that there is. And no one is saying that you don't have the right to own it, but at least you should have the right to report that you have a gun, you're a citizen that is responsible. When all of car that's stolen, you report it immediately. When you buy a gun and it's registered and reported and it is stolen, you should report that immediately. Many of the crimes that are committed today are in essence with guns that are stolen that were bought legally and the owners for one reason or the other never reported it stolen or whatever. I just do not see a reporting regulation as an infringement in the most remote way of any constitutional right to own and bear a gun. Do you agree with that?
Absolutely, I agree, and I think an ordinance of this type helps. I think you've already purchased the weapon. This is a societal issue now about you've come to society and you've said, I want to carry this, and in order to do that in exchange for that right, I think you should divulge the material, the information about whatever weapons you're going 37 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 to carry; and if it's multiple, I think those should be on the documents. So if any of those guns turn up in crime scenes later on, it's going to be easier for police and the officials to track them down and to find the rightful owners. Even if they are stolen from that individual, at least a track that goes there and you can work from there. So I don't think it infringes on that argument at all, and it's something that society needs.
The two issues that were approved in Colorado and Oregon, they're both very similar.
Could you just give us a very brief description of what they were? Because these are two western states. Colorado is a cowboy country, the Marlboro man. Can you give us just a very short aspect of those two initiatives?
Yes. Both initiatives centered on activities that take place at organized gun shows. Prior to the passage of this initiative, you could go into a gun show and 38 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 you could buy weapons with very few questions asked and walk out. There are federal licensed dealers that operate at these gun shows and they mus operate under federal requirements and perform background checks for their sales, but there's an equal or greater number of private dealers who also operate tables at these shows and they have no restrictions.
You could actually go in and buy and load up the trunk of your car with guns?
That's correct. In some instances, we would have dealers who would have placards made up set up on their table next to a federally licensed dealer, an FFL, that would say "No background checks, no 18 waiting." So people could just move over to that table and buy their weapons unrestricted. The four weapons that were used in the Columbine High School shooting in Colorado all immigrated through gun shows. Three of those weapons, by the way, were purchased by an 18-year-old girl for the two 16 and 17-year-old shooters who were with her at the show. She 39 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 showed her driver's license and purchased -- she later testified at the state legislature that had she had to fill out a background check requirement, she would not have done so.
If there had been a paper trail that would have led to her, she would not have purchased the weapons, that's correct.
I just want to make a statement. For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone could have a problem with the verification of a firearm. You know, you have the right to purchase a firearm. You have the right to sell the firearm, right. You have the right to give the firearm to somebody, but all we're asking for is a verification of that conveyance as a person who has a firearm and who has a permit to carry. I welcome the fact that a form will come to my house once a year asking me do I still have the guns that I had when I got the permit to carry. I don't see why that's a 40 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 problem. Recently, we had an abandoned vehicle problem and we found out in that discussion that there was a problem of individuals selling vehicles without properly reporting the sale of the vehicles and they ultimately ended up as a junker on the street. We amended legislation to require and made stiffer penalties to require the individual to report sale of or conveyance of abandoned vehicles. I don't understand how somebody in the state legislature can tell us we can't do that for guns. I just don't understand it.
I don't think you have to look as far as the state legislature to have a respectful disagreement with this legislation. I just really need to know personally, and again, I'm not going to pretend that I've read every sentence in this. Maybe if I had, I'd understand better. But I just can't understand asking a person that has a permit to carry -- first of all, no one in Columbine High School had a permit to carry a gun that was involved in the shooting. 41 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
What I'm trying to understand, by a person listing the number of weapons that they have if they have a permit, what that will accomplish in preventing a gun from being stolen and used in the submission of a crime?
If a person sends the form in that they have three guns they have a permit to carry, if that gun is stolen --
I think any responsible person that has a permit to carry --
Councilman, I disagree with you. I know people who have lost guns. I know people who had guns stolen from them. They do not report them. All I'm doing is 42 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 encouraging the individual to be a responsible gun owner. That's all I want to do.
When the person -- again, I'm trying learn something also, not just be argumentive.
When the person bought the gun, at the time they purchased a gun at the local gun dealership, was there a process which made them the record owner of that weapon.
On a federal level. There's a federal background check and there's a state registry.
And our police department uses that federal record to determine the ownership of weapons every day.
But they don't verify the possession of the ownership of the gun on a consistent basis.
But if you buy a gun today, pick it up next week, and that gun is used in the commission of a crime anywhere in its 43 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 life, you as the purchaser of that gun are responsible, at least hypothetically you're responsible for that weapon. What would this legislation do?
Before you ask that question. What happens when they find out that you're the registered owner of that gun?
I assume -- and again, this is only an assumption. I would assume the investigators would come make a visit or bring you in say, "You bought this gun a year ago. What happened to it?"
"When was it stolen? Why isn't there a police report?" And then I think a sharp investigator, at least if I 44 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 were, I would absolutely question a person that had a deadly weapon stolen from them that ultimately they can be responsible for or be associated with a crime and not report a gun -- I mean, people get panicky when they lose their pager or cell phone. I can't imagine any person that has a permit to carry a gun, I mean, they're real -- the people that are carrying a gun and you had it for protection that would lose a gun and not report it lost or stolen. A person -- again, I'm talking about a person that has a permit to carry normally is a responsible person.
There are currently records that show 35,000 them in the City of Philadelphia. That's a lot of people.
Councilman, ask that question of the Police Commissioner's assistant when he comes up.
As a matter of fact, I asked former deputy police commissioner the question. He didn't think anyone should have a right to even have a permit to carry a gun because they are victims of gunfire.
You can ask him 45 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 why this type of legislation makes sense at this time.
I just want to understand what this legislation will do to make it a better situation.
Let me ask your question with respects to and where I think you're going as it relates to an individual who has gotten a legal permit to carry a gun. And people will say and have said that the City of Philadelphia is preempted by state law to be involved in the registry, the regulation of any guns sale, ownership, or permits, right. But the State has determined three or four years ago that it is now legal for the City of Philadelphia, City of Philadelphia police officers who are employees of the City in a municipal building at Third and Race that is owned by the City of Philadelphia on a form that in the interview that is done by a municipal employee on typewriters that done by municipal employees that are typed by municipal employees, right, they have inserted us into the process. Now, my preference would be to have all guns verify, but because we are 46 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 preempted by state law, we do not have the ability to be involved in individuals who do not have permits to carry. When they gave us authorization to issue a permit to carry, the City of Philadelphia, they have inserted us into the process. So therefore, I am requesting an alteration of the form that the municipal police officer in the municipal building on the municipal typewriter by the municipal clerk has the ability to ask that information. So that's why this is tailored the way it is.
It would be very good if we had all guns registered at a national level, state level. We don't have that now. It would be very good if we could identify the ownership of every gun in the hands of people. We don't have that right now. In fact, that's one of the tenets of the NRA. They want to know who has the guns so that they can come and get it from you when the time comes. I heard Charlton Heston say that. They have put every obstacle in the way in terms of people being responsible, in terms of knowing who, how, and when they buy and how many guns you have. And all we're saying is 47 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 you can own them, you can sell them, you can have them; all we want to know is what make you have and if the crime is committed and you haven't reported it stolen, you haven't reported it lost, you'll have to answer for that. That's it. Yes, sir.
Just to finish answering your question, I'm afraid I got my soapbox out and distracted myself. But the initiatives in the west, both of them centered on requiring that background checks are run on all individuals purchasing weapons, long rifles and handguns, at gun shows. So it leveled the playing field between federally licensed dealers and private dealers.
Good afternoon, Councilpersons. My name is Anthony Holloway, and I'm the director of special projects for the Philadelphia Anti-drug Anti-violence Network. 48 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 One of the projects that I oversee is a firearms reduction initiative primarily centered in North Philadelphia. One of our main jobs in dealing with reducing firearms is to change the attitude about guns because guns are as prevalent in the communities in which we work as Timberlin boots that the kids wear. So what we're trying to do is really work with young people to change attitudes about guns so that they don't feel that there's a need to do it. This legislation is helpful in dealing with responsible adults, but I think it's another voice that needs to be heard so the young people that you see here are a part of this program. They are call Youth Educators for Safety. And beside me is one of them. Her name is Robeson, and she's going to speak to you briefly.
Strawberry Mansion? 49 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
I'm coming before you today basically on behalf of myself and the rest of the Youth Educators. I don't have a lot of numbers, I don't have facts for you, but I just wanted to let you know that I am behind Bill 12 000659, I believe it is. Is that it? 000659 because I live -- like I said, I grew up in North Philadelphia so I'm exposed to a lot of the effects of gun violence and I think it is way too easy for people to get guns because I can as of right now go home and purchase one myself from somebody that I know or somebody who knows somebody because of the fact that there are guns in straw purchases being used and I just wanted to tell you about something that happened to me so maybe that it would make you more into doing more to help Bill 000659 get processed or legislated so it will make some type of effect. A cousin of mine was -- we grew up 50 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 together. We were really close. We did a lot of things together. He was getting ready to go to Temple soon. He had been in trouble as a juvenile before, but he had just started getting hisself back together as far as disciplinary actions. He had started working, had been holding a steady job for the past eight months and he and another young man were not at good terms at the time. And the young man and a couple of his accomplices saw my cousin somewhere in his car and they shot him on site three times in the head, twice in the chest, and then they set the car on fire. Now, I had just spoken to him the day before which made it all the more worse because he was just telling me, you know, we got to go do this, we got to get ready, I got to get ready to go to school, and we were actually planning on going to look for things for his dorm room and help him basically just get ready to get adjusted to going to college and actually settling down and doing something productive with hisself. And for something like this to happen, I don't think anybody knows exactly how much it affects you until it happens 51 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 to you personally. And as many people tell me that they're trying to help and they're trying to do something about it and they want guns off the street and they want to stop it, nobody knows how bad -- nobody wants it as bad as me. I even personally got involved in the program called the Yes Program. The people behind me with the colorful signs, they are part of the Yes Program, some of them up from Kensington High, and we got together and we started -- it's call Youth Education for Safety. We started a program basically to reduce the amount of gun violence in our neighborhoods. That was the program, that's what we were based on. We've done rallies. We've done marches. We've done youth speakouts. We've gone to middle schools. We've gone to high schools. We've done skits. We've done plays. We've done a lot of things and we try to get the message. We make flyers. We do block parties. We do everything. We try to get to the people. We thought that as youth we could relate to them better and we thought that being as though we were younger and they were our allies and they were people that we saw every day maybe in school 52 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 that they would listen to us more than they would listen to you, but we can only do as citizens and as young people so much which is why I'm here today for you as people of some type of power and some people who have some type of pull to actually try to do something about this. And I know that the bill is to help trace where the guns are coming from; am I correct? They're supposed to help where the guns are coming from. But I personally don't feel as though they need to be on the street at all because there's no use for a gun. And even registered or not, the gun that killed my cousin was registered also, it doesn't mean anything.
So I just feel as though that the bill is a good idea, but after it is passed or after it goes on up, I think you should make another one trying to soon outlaw the bill -- I mean, outlaw the guns and not allow them to be carried by any Tom, Dick, or Harry because registered guns kill people too. It's not like there's a difference in the gun. I mean, it still shoots people. That's what they're for; they're made to kill people. And if you keep them on the streets, then that's what 53 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 they'll do. You can't put a gun in somebody's hand and allow them to have it and then not expect them to do anything with it. They got it for a reason one way or another. So I just hope that, you know, it gets passed. Thank you. )
Thank you. What is the name of your organization again?
We're called the YES Program. It stands for Youth Educators for Safety.
And you're part of Philadelphia anti-drug anti-crime?
And you go out in the community, you said, and do plays and other kinds of things?
Okay because maybe I might want to get in touch with you, with the group, to do something in our neighborhood.
Do you think you made a difference or you're making a difference?
I think we're making a difference because, to me, one person is a difference in any situation. If I can prevent somebody from doing something, then I feel I made a difference. But I feel we've touched several youth and -- I hope we've touched several youth. I hope we're making a difference. Over the years I've seen it reduced and I've seen that I myself can control situations better as opposed to -- 55 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 because before I got into the program, I was more or less a person who would be not so able to talk things out. I feel as though now that I'm in the program, I feel as though we know how to talk things over and we know how to work situations out better. So, yeah, I think we do make a difference.
You're doing some conflict resolution and those kinds of things?
I just want to agree with not just what you said about taking guns off the street, but I'm a big, big advocate too of not even having them on the street because I think more and more our neighborhoods and communities and city is turning into like a six-gun territory, wild wild west, everybody in the world is trying to get guns. I, too, have a nephew who at 14 was shot in the head with a gun. And he has not walked, talked, he's blind. He's alive, but the quality of his life, you know, is questionable. He's in an institution and we don't think he will 56 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 ever walk, talk, see or anything again. So he's now years old, and my family has personally 4 felt the tragedy of young people and the violence 5 that's happening out here in neighborhoods. And 6 he happened to live in Mt. Airy at the time. So 7 you talked about North Philly, but it happens all 8 over the City. 9 When I'm driving in cars or riding in 10 cars, I'm very careful about whether I want to 11 say anything to another driver or even beep the 12 horn. Particularly, you look at the Daily News, 13 the front page of the Daily News today is road 14 rage and this killing that took place in Center 15 City yesterday. So more and more we as a society 16 are becoming very aware of the fact that there 17 are just too many people traveling in this city carrying guns. I just want to say to Councilman Rizzo that many times people have weapons that are taken, sometimes they're taken and in a lot of cases they're taken by other family members, particularly if you have teenagers. I have lots of teenage cousins. I had a gun that disappeared out of my bedroom and I knew one of my teenage 57 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 nephews or cousins had to take it. We were having a block party so people were just kind of roaming around. You want to report it, but do you want to get your family members in trouble? Well, you really couldn't pinpoint anybody. So when you have these weapons, even though you're trying to be responsible and it's hidden and put away, people take advantage of opportunity and just -- my gun disappeared years ago and we did ultimately report it. It wasn't really my gun, it was my husband's gun. I wouldn't have a gun. I wouldn't own a gun. But I want to thank you for testifying and we'll probably be in touch with your group.
Thank you all, thank you very much. We have Sharif T. Street and Angelica Matos. (Witnesses come forward.)
Identify yourself 58 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 for the record. You're representing the Senator, the State Senator?
Yes, I am. Good afternoon, Councilpeople. I'm Sharif T. Street, Chief Legislative Adviser to Pennsylvania State Senator Shirley M. Kitchen of the 3rd District. I would start first with the senator supports the Councilman's measure and believes that any measures that can be taken to reduce the proliferation of guns in our district and throughout this Commonwealth is needed. I think there was some talk about -- I'm not going to bombard folks with statistics because I'm sure you all have the same access that. But just some statistics from the Philadelphia Firearms Reduction Task Force which includes ATF and some others, because there's some talk about Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. Juveniles. Once Pennsylvania was determined to be the primary source state, the Philadelphia Firearms Reduction Tax Force -- and I'm talking about Pennsylvania's the primary source state for weapons committing crimes associated with crimes in Philadelphia. Force 59 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 analyzed individual counties to determine more specific source areas. Of the 260 firearms traced to juveniles, out of the 156 firearms 5 traced, 71 could be traced to do a Pennsylvania 6 county. The top five counties for Philadelphia 7 firearms associated with Philadelphia crimes, 49 8 percent come from Philadelphia, 20 percent 9 Delaware, 10 percent Montgomery, 6 percent Bucks, 10 and 5 percent Chester. That's 90 percent of the 11 firearms associated with crimes in Philadelphia are sources in and around the Philadelphia area. That's for juveniles. The numbers are fairly consistent for adults and youth. And that is to say that this Council can as a unilateral body, along with the mayor, have significant impact on the firearms associated with crimes in the City of Philadelphia without action by the entire Commonwealth. That's not to say that this isn't a problem that affects communities throughout this Commonwealth. But it's going to be more difficult, as you all are well aware, because of many of the factors that Councilman Ortiz pointed out to get legislation through the Commonwealth to deal with these issues, and the senator is 60 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 committed to working on those kinds of tasks. But I want to paint a little picture of how firearms are associated with Philadelphia -- Philadelphia firearms are associated with Philadelphia crime. As we know, unlike drugs it's been said before, firearms start legal and become illegal, so the regulation of legal firearms by lawful owners, and I'm not here to undermine the second amendment, is important because it's important in curbing the illegal violence that occurs because of illegal firearms. I think the comment was made that a sharp investigator could ascertain the location of a gun used in a crime. I agree with that; a sharp investigator could. But I think that we need not rely on every investigator being sharp. I think we should create a system where we make it as easy for our police as we can to ascertain the source of a gun. I don't know -- the police are already have a difficult enough time trying to deal with crime. I don't know that we need to make it unnecessarily difficult if Councilpeople have come up with provision that would make it 61 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 more easy for investigators to identify the sources of firearms. Therefore, the senator would ask that Councilpeople support the police and the community by passing this ordinance in the law and requiring folks who are lawful gun owners who have a permit to carry to register those firearms. Another anecdotal piece. And we talked about this automobile stuff and the senator was very involved in the vehicle titling process and the registry. In Pennsylvania currently we are one of the strictest states in the country about registering automobiles. I actually found out through personal experience that my wife cannot even put a vehicle in my name unless she has title to that vehicle.
She can't even if she has documentation proving owns it, she must have title because we are so strict in registering vehicles. We trace vehicles -- I've talked with officials at PennDOT. We have a point of life and death in tracing a vehicle throughout its life. However, we have almost no 25 such requirement for guns. It just would seem 62 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 common sense to me that if the City of Philadelphia can take measures to make a system which is one of the most rigorous in the country for tracing automobiles more rigorous in this city that we can take a system which probably one of the more lenient ones in the country on guns and make it just a little bit more easier for police to be able to determine who owns a gun and what the life history of a gun was like we can trace a vehicle. Finally, I will say this because there's been some talk and testimony about gun violence affecting families. I want folks in this room and everyone at the sound of my voice and who reads the record to know that the First Family of Philadelphia has also been affected by gun violence. A couple years ago before we were the First Family my cousin Milton's son was shot in a random act of gun violence in Southwest Philadelphia. They lived in North Philadelphia but happened to be visiting his grandmother in Southwest Philadelphia. And because there was drug shoot-outs in the streets, he happened to be just coming out of the store, literally buying 63 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 some candy I think at about the age of and was shot, and an even younger relative was also shot. Fortunately, both of the young men lived and recovered, but the mental traumatic still affects him to this day. I would hope that not every family has to be affected because this can affect people of any walk, shape, size, color, creed, religion, in any part of the city because you never know when you might find yourself in a situation where someone senseless and irresponsible act of gun violence affects you. And I would just leave that as something for Councilmembers to think about. And I thank you for a moment of your time.
Thank you. Just a message to the senator that as soon as we pass this, the issue will be put into their court in the Senate. So I know that this issue is going land squarely over there very soon.
I know we can count on the Councilman and others to come and help us and we may need testimony in Harrisburg.
Miss Matos, 64 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 identify yourself for the record, please.
My name is Angelica Matos, I'm from Kensington High School and I'm public safety. At this moment I have a criminology class, second period, and we're talking about gun control at this moment. And some students are against it and some students are for it. I'm in between because I have had violence of gun act upon my family and that has hurt me dearly. But also, there are things that I'm open minded to. For instance, that's why I'm here today, to understand the ruling and how everything is done in the court system. But I will go for gun control because of what happened to my family also. I live, you can say, in the Badlands 11th and Cambria.
Never refer to it as the Badlands, never. That's a term that the newspapers are trying to get us to use, and we cannot. That's our neighborhood, not the Badlands. It's the Promised Land.
All right, the Promised Land, 11th and Cambria. They said it's a bad street, but I have lived there for 13 and a half 65 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 years, almost all of my life, and there was no 3 violence on my street never happened, but I have as a child noticed things. And like I said, it hurted me mentally. And for y'all to pass this act, I will be for it, I'll even help y'all vote. But like Mr. Sharif said and the rest of 'em who said they are for it, you could see us like we're hurt, like the young lady said that things happened to her family, so did Mr. Street. So if y'all going to think about it, don't even think twice, do it. (Laughter.)
Thank you. I'm glad that you're doing this at Kensington High.
There's a lot of organizations out there that's not being heard. Like she said, she's in the YES program. I think if more of the youth will go out there and speak upon this, that we will be heard. There's a lot of youth that do care about situations like this. And some people don't want to hear it. We're standing up and we're standing tall for y'all to hear us, and we're speaking loud and clear for y'all to hear us. 66 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 (Applause.)
Well, let me tell something. We hear you, but you if you want, I know that every Councilperson here, if you want us, invite us and we can talk, we can talk. We're listeners, but we also like to, you know, talk so invite to us Kensington High to talk about these things, all right? Invite to us Kensington High.
Okay? Thank you very much. Brad and Dr. Harris and Mr. McLees, please come up. (Witnesses come forward.)
I'm going to ask you to make the points that are needed to do made, Dr. Harris and Mr. McLees. We have a 4 o'clock briefing, and it is 3:20 and I want to get all of the testimony done. And I know that my friend John is back there, John Morawitz, and I want to get him at the table so that we can hear his testimony. Brad, you can begin, you know the 67 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 drill already, so identify yourself for the record. And Mr. McLees, you know the drill.
My name is Bradford Richmond, Special Assistant to the Police Commissioner. I'd like to thank -- first of all, the Police Commissioner should be on an airplane returning from California right now, so I'd like to thank you for this opportunity on his behalf to participate in these proceedings. Before I even begin the remarks, there were a couple of things that were stated by speakers before me that I think can be put into perspective. One is that -- I think, Councilman Clarke, you mentioned that there were over 30,000 permits in Philadelphia. I think the number is now in the area of 38,000 permits in Philadelphia. And just for comparison purposes, the City of New York has approximately 16,000 permits and that includes 11,000 retired police officers.
Well, we had the 7 to 68 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 1 rule when Police Commissioner Timoney came here, that there were 7 times the population. So when we asked him from resources, he automatically divided New York by 7. And that includes retired police. There's 5,000 civilian permits in New York.
We have in excess of 38,000. In New Jersey that number is somewhere between 450 and 500 for the entire State of New Jersey.
450 to 500 carry permits. And we have in excess of 38,000, so that puts that into perspective a little bit.
Come to Philly. I want to thank Councilman Clarke and Councilman Ortiz for introducing this bill, in large part because important to keep this issue of gun violence in the forefront, and we need ideas and 69 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 creative idea to be brought forward. If there are problems with those ideas, we can deal with them, but we need to have constructive discussion on this topic. Gun violence is an epidemic in Philadelphia; that is well known. Philadelphia, if it doesn't lead the nation, it's close to leading the nation in homicides by gun; that is, that a larger percentage of our murders are committed with firearms. We're somewhere around 80 percent. New York, again by comparison, is in the 60 percent range. So that by far, if you're murdered in Philadelphia, it's more likely to happen by a firearm. In addition, a statistic was turned out this afternoon that 5,000 --
You know, Brad, we've had comments here, right, about some of my colleagues have, and they've stated here that they were afraid to go to New York because of all the violence that was going on there. And the thing is that we never put it into perspective. There are 8 million people over there, 1.4 here, and the things that you're saying are really, really very revealing. 70 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
The other statistic you might find interesting in that regard is that the number which was thrown out by Councilman Clarke which is correct number, that 5,000 approximately illegal guns were seized off the streets of Philadelphia, that number compared to New York, again, overwhelms the number in their best year. New York doesn't seize 5,000 illegal firearms off the streets, and that's a number that got Commissioner Timoney's attention as well, why there are so many guns being recovered in Philadelphia. There are many things that need to be done to curb the tide of these illegal guns. Certainly, the straw purchasers have a significant impact on the flow of guns. They have a profit motive to operate in Philadelphia providing guns to minors, to people who have criminal records who can't otherwise by guns. And the one gun a month legislation which is proposed would certainly go far in eliminating the profit margin.
Brad, in order to get to the point -- and I think Councilman Rizzo 71 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 asked a question before. Why is this bill a step forward in this war that we are waging? Why is it important to you as the police department for this bill -- for this permit to have this information within it? Why not the federal government to do it? Why not somebody else do it? Why is it important for you as the City of Philadelphia Police Department to have this information?
All right, I have rephrase your question so that I can answer it properly.
Number one is that our job as the police department is to enforce the law, and the police department has very serious reservations about the legality of this law and I think that the City of Philadelphia Law Department needs to review this and offer an opinion and see whether or not it's consistent with state law.
If you're asking how 72 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 the police department could use this information --
If in fact this law were not preempted, there are a number of ways we could use it. I probably couldn't even anticipate all of them. But one way, for example, would be if a person comes into the police department gives us a list of a hundred guns that they one an year after year that list stays essentially the same, maybe they buy a couple, they sell a couple, but essentially the same, that would be one thing the person's a collector. But if that list of 100 guns changes dramatically from year to year where this person going through an inventory of guns, that's going to be an indicator to the police department that we have someone who is dealing and, obviously, if they're not a federal firearms licensee. Does that mean the person is immediately arrested? Of course not. But the police department follows leads, looks for indicators, and that would be a clear indicator. Another thing that is what I think so 73 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 remarkable in terms of solving crimes is if a car accident occurred where a person was injured and a description was an unusual model car, for example, a pink old Cadillac, we could find out in a matter of ten minutes every pink older model Cadillac in the City of Philadelphia, we would know of almost instantly. Yet, if somebody is shot by an unusual caliber weapon or described a weapon that is of unusual caliber, we can't even begin to determine where that weapon is in the City of Philadelphia. So I think there would be an unlimited number of ways that investigators could use this information in order to solve crimes and account for weapons.
So this information right now, a gun is used and you have really very little way of tracing that gun to who owns it?
Very difficult. In fact, at best, we frequently will get the original purchaser of a gun, and it takes an extensive amount of work generally by the federal government to actually trace. You know how long it took in Columbine to trace those weapons 74 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 because the federal forms are maintained in individual gun shops where the transfers are being done. It's not a matter of putting it in a computer knowing the history of a weapon, you'd have to trace it individually. So that information is not readily available to us.
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Richmond, could you -- I'd like to go back. You threw statistics out about New York and New Jersey. Could you tell me how many police officers are employed by the New York Police Department?
49,000 police officers. How many do we have here in Philadelphia? 75 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
What would you get that motivated 38,000 Philadelphians to go out and get permits for protection? What do you think motivated those 38,000 people? What do you think the perception of our city based on that 38,000 people wanting permits to carry?
There are people who feel that they have to protect themselves, as is their right.
So perception -- 76 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 we speculate, and I can say it's more than speculation, that the 38,000 people that went out and bought a gun and went through the process, they don't feel like they're safe here and went out and got a gun. I heard something that astonished me, the number of women applying for permits. Do you have any idea how many female versus male?
No. I know that it's not uncommon. I don't know the exact numbers.
So, obviously, people are getting permits, legal permits, to carry a gun in Philadelphia because they don't think they're safe and they might not think they have enough police department or the response time isn't good enough. There's reasons why people have applied for permits to carry a gun in the City of Philadelphia. And I'm just having a tough time going after those folks that have legally -- and you even have reservations and the Law Department may whether this is even legal to do this. And I want to be cooperative, but also as a member of this committee, I want to give it a little bit of a balance, also. Thank you. 77 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Yes, sir. John McLees, Executive Director for School Safety for the School District of Philadelphia. I have a very short prepared statement. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss firearm confiscations in our public schools. During '93-'94 school year when I was first appointed executive director for school safety, 45 firearms were confiscated in our schools. I'd like to think that because of strategies that the district has implemented over the past years, we have experienced a decline in the number of firearms coming into our schools. From a high of 45 firearms in the '93-'94 school year to 15 in the '99-2000 school year. And thus far in school year 2000-2001, only one firearm has been found inside our schools. During the '99-2000 school year, 15 firearms were confiscated. No firearms were recovered from elementary schools. Three were confiscated from our middle schools, and 12 from 78 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 our high schools. During '98-'99 school year 4 firearms were confiscated, from our elementary schools, from middle schools, and 8 from high 6 school. 7 Additionally, in the '97-'98 school 8 year, firearms were confiscated; firearm was confiscated from our elementary school, 3 from the middle schools, and 18 from our high schools. The type and caliber of firearms confiscated ranged from revolvers of .22-caliber through .45-caliber and semiautomatic pistols ranging from .22-caliber to .40-caliber including two tech nine auto pistols. We believe that one of the many reasons for the consistent decline in confiscation of firearms over the past few years is directly attributable to the School District's deployment and implementation of its Safe School Entry Program. That program includes walk-through metal detectors, X-ray scanning machines, and personal student identification card system which all the children have in the high schools. And it's being expanded, as a 79 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 matter of fact, this year to our middle schools. The Board of Education mandated that the above systems be installed in all high schools as well as their annexes. This new safe school scanning program is designed to deter violence and serious physical injury in schools by inhibiting the access of weapons and other contraband into our schools. The School District of Philadelphia has made a strong and determined effort to maintain its schools as safe and secure places where students and staff can pursue the educational endeavors our children deserve. The use of firearms in conjunction with indifference for the respect of human life are draining the resources of our city, the children, of course, being our most importance resource. The Philadelphia School District Office for School Safety has maintained a long-standing commitment to depleting the number of firearms and weapons entering our schools. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLees. 80 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 You have a question, Councilman Rizzo?
First of all, I want to let you know that I personally believe that the School District police under your leadership do a great job. I know it's a tough situation. I want to follow up on a request to the Chair of this committee. This police department does a great job in compiling statistics. I'd be curious, just for my own knowledge, and again, if you can provide this to the Chair, when you track gun violence, I'd like to know how many guns, Mr. Richmond, were used in the commission of a crime that were purchased by a person that has a permit to carry a gun? Because I'd like to know how many people, how many guns came from people that have permits to carry a gun. You say that all the gun violence in the City, so I'd like to know how many guns were stolen either from a person who had a permit or sold a gun. I'd be just curious. Darrell looks like he's got that already.
I'm glad you 81 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 asked that question. I think you'll be surprised.
If I understand your question, you want to know what traces bace to an original purchaser by a permitted --
I'd be curious since we're dealing with legislation that's going to affect people that have a permit to carry, I'd be curious to know how many gun crimes were committed with guns that link back to a person that has a permit to carry. Is that clear? .
Thank you very much. We're running very close. Mr. John Mirowitz.
One quick question. With respect to some of your earlier testimony. I just want to be clear that the 82 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 numbers associated with New York are running essentially at the to ratio to the City of Philadelphia and I believe the population is approximately to 1 versus the City of 6 Philadelphia. In addition, with respect to this 7 whole self-defense issue, I think on average people probably -- I'm just throwing this out of my head based on people that I know. Probably have multiple guns. I know of instances where individuals had 50 guns and had permits to carry 50 guns. You do not need to have 50 guns for self-defense. So I just wanted to put that on the record.
The only caveat on those number is I'm a homegrown boy so I didn't come down from New York so I'm relying on statistics.
Is that it? Mr. Mirowitz, you've been to this Council before.
Yes. I hope Councilman Cohen is feeling much better. Last I heard, he was feeling rather ill. Two things remind me about today. 83 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 One, thank you for allowing me to testify. When I left the house this morning, I wasn't planning on being here, so I apologize, I don't have written presentation for you, although I will prepare one and supply it to the committee. Secondly, the issue before the committee seems to be one specific bill, which everyone seems to concede probably violates Section 6120 State preemption, probably violates --
Well then I can tell you, Councilman Ortiz, it violates Section 6120. We went to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court and they agreed --
Sir, sir, excuse me. Sir, sir. Excuse me, please. I am the chair. You will testify and you will listen. But if you're not going to respect the rules of this Council, you will not be able to do that. Okay?
Like I said, you 84 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 may have your opinion as to what the legality is. This Council legislates. The courts either decide that it is ir it isn't. You are not a judge. You have an opinion. You can state that opinion and we will listen.
You will do it with the respect that we're giving you. So you go ahead and you testify and you give your opinion as to the legality of the bill or the illegality of the bill and refrain from any other colorations as to motivations or whatever. Thank you.
I wasn't making any colorations, Councilman. I was making a simple statement of the fact. The last time I told you a gun bill was unconstitutional and violated Section 6120 State preemption. We took the issue up to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court and you lost then. I am making that same statement as to this bill; you will lose again. The provisions for the issuance of a concealed weapons carry permit are set forth by the Uniform Firearms Act. 85 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 As you well know, I sat on the State select committee that wrote or rewrote the provisions whose work led to the revisions since it came out of the State legislature. The statute calls for the state police to provide for the basis for that. It doesn't provide for City Council in Philadelphia to provide that. Now, going back to following City Council's rules, your rules call for witnesses to alternate pro and con. I have sat here since 1 o'clock this afternoon, actually earlier, I am the first opposed witness. You've had numerous witnesses --
Sir, there are no 20 rules of Council that says pro and con. Sorry, that's not the way it is handled.
The rules have not changed. 86 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Thank you. As far as confiscated firearms, since that issue has come up, let me tell you about a gentleman whose firearm was confiscated and took us three years to return it or recover it. He had the misfortune to come out of his home -- he was an employer and an employee here in Philadelphia. He owns a business, he has numerous employees. He also works for the business. It was here in Philadelphia. He came out of his home one morning to discover that there had been a shooting that was in the process a shooting. A person had been killed; horrible situation. He tried to give first aid. He tried to observe the perpetrator. He was able to get a partial license plate. He called the Philadelphia Police Department. The Philadelphia Police Department responded. Unfortunately, the victim was dead on the street. Philadelphia police then proceed to do take this gentleman, bring him in for 87 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 questioning, confiscate his carry permit, confiscate his handgun, take his information. It took us three years to get his gun back for him. They finally went after the drug dealer who shot the other drug dealer in this guy's front yard or front porch. Just because a firearm was confiscated and being held by the City of Philadelphia's Police Department doesn't mean it is being involved in a crime. Perfectly legitimate; you've got a --
That was the impression you were giving. You were asking about confiscated firearms. I was trying to give you an example of one particular instance. Now, as far as some of the violations that this bill constitutes, we have Section 23 6111.4 which is no registration. We have Section 24 6109C which provides for the format for the investigation. Nowhere in Section 6109 which 88 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 governs of issuance of carry permit is there a requirement that the applicant be a gun owner. You don't need to own a gun to get a carry permit in the State of Pennsylvania. Actually, in the State of Pennsylvania our constitution which predates, not just the federal constitution, not just the second amendment, but also the United States, the right of the Commonwealth citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the Commonwealth shall not be questioned. Now, Councilman Ortiz, you and I have gone around in circles a lot. We disagree whether there's a constitutional right for an individual to own guns. I will tell you, if this bill passes, I will take it to court. I will take it to court as a government action and denigration of a civil right.
I expect that this bill -- as we said, we expect any bill that deals with the ownership of guns to be fiercely opposed by the constituted lobbying bodies across this nation. We expect this bill to be taken to court and to -- and I imagine that you will also go to the legislature and see if there is any loophole 89 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 in the preemptive acts that prevent us from legislating for the health and safety of our citizens. And you will then -- if that loophole is there, you will then try to close that loophole so that we are prevented from legislating for the health and safety of our citizens just because you believe that the right to carry a gun, that the right to own a gun, is unassailable, it is written in stone that that is a constitutional right that the state has no 12 right to regulate --
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm perfectly capable of putting my own words in my own mouth. I am not here for any lobbying group. I am not authorized to act on behalf of any of the groups, even the ones which I am either a director or president of. I am not here on behalf of the NRA, the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania State Fish and Game Protective Association, Philadelphia Federation of Sportsman Clubs. I am here as a Philadelphian. I am not a second-class Pennsylvanian. I will not let you make me one. By you, I mean City Council in Philadelphia. 90 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Now, I had a young man -- I live across the street from Olney High School. We had a young man who was shot and I found him in my backyard. And we summoned the police and waited for them to respond while I gave him first aid. He was shot with an illegal gun because the gun was handled by minor. It's illegal for a minor to have a gun. When they go out and prosecute the young individual who shot him -- by the way, that was a dispute over who gets to sell drugs in the Olney High School football field. When they prosecute the young man who shot him, I will let you know. That was several years ago.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sir, I've heard your testimony and I am a person who believes in the right to bear firearms. As I said earlier in my testimony, I have a firearm. I'm a person that lives in a neighborhood 33rd and Berks that too frequently in the middle of the night I hear gunshots going off. You know what I mean? I'm laying there in the bed and -- 91 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Sir, will you let me talk, please? Frankly speaking, I'm not going to allow, continue to allow some state legislator from Lackawanna County or East Giblip County continue to tell us what we can do in the City of Philadelphia. These are the same people who tell us that we can't move an abandoned vehicle from the middle of a street until we go there with same regulation. These are the same people that in parts of my district that I have properties that have been vacant for 30 years, the owner's long gone dead, they say we can't acquire the property and get it into some sort of productive re-use because of state law. And I'm telling you, sir, I'm sick and tired of the State dictating to the City of Philadelphia because people say there's Philadelphia, there's Allegheny County, and the rest of the state happens to be called Alabama because some of these antiquated laws associated with some of these state legislators. So, I mean, you said that you want to 92 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 take us to court. The last time I checked, the City of Philadelphia Law Department has around 150 lawyers; am I correct, Councilman?
So, you know, if that's what we got to do, then that's what we got to do, sir. But we're going to spur the debate because I'm telling you I'm not going to continue to go home to my constituents and tell them because of some state law we can't do something to stem the tide of these guns. (Applause.)
If you want to do something about the violence in the City of Philadelphia, do something about the, quote/unquote, known drug locations that exist for decades and get passed from one generation of drug dealer to the next. Do something about the 80,000 plus outstanding bench warrants in this city where you have repeat violent offenders. If I remember correctly, when Senator Spector ran for D.A., the comment was that if you took between 800 and a thousand career criminals off the street, you took care of 80 percent of 93 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Philadelphia's violence. Now I believe the figure is up to 1500. Those are the people with the outstanding bench warrants. If you take the career criminal off the street, you'll take care of the crime problem. If you take the repeat drug offender off the street, you will take care of that problem. Whether you'd have an intersection where you have drug dealers day in and day out, whether Fred, Joe, Larry, Hillary, Bernice, whoever, when they're all do the same thing at the same location, you want to end the problem? Do something about busting them. Taking the firearms away from a firearms owner, to a legitimate gun owner, doesn't do anything to end that crime.
Have you read the bill, sir? Can I ask you a question with respects to your testimony? Have you read the bill?
Can I finish my statement? 94 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
I'm going to allow you to respond. I mean, you're making statements that are not relevant to the bill. We're not talking about confiscating anybody's firearms.
You were saying that the justification for the bill is to do something about the crimes and the violence in the City of Philadelphia.
I'm saying if you want to do something about the crimes and violence in the City of Philadelphia, take the drug dealers off the street, take the criminals off the street.
Sir, what we're attempting to do is to create an environment that will allow the police adequately trace the illegal guns, that's all. If you have illegal guns, sir -- 95 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Excuse me. Sir, you will talk to the bill. You have said that you're going to take it to court if we pass it. That's fine, that's your prerogative, that's your right. You will relate your testimony to the bill. We've heard all of the sermons. We have jails that we keep on filling with criminals, sir, so we don't need to hear. We understand very clearly. What we are trying to do here is exercise our legislative duty to look at --
Councilman, can I answer the question that the other Councilman put to me?
-- the health and safety. Have you finished testifying about the bill?
I was trying to answer a question the Councilman put to me. Do you want me to answer his question?
Yes, I said I've read 96 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 the bill. You then asked me how it related -- how my statement related --
You mentioned confiscation of guns. Our bill does not address that. It does not speak of confiscation.
That was a prefatory remark and that was comment that I made before I made my statement because there seemed to be some confusion --
Have finished your testimony as to the bill, the legality or illegality of the bill?
I'd like to discuss with Councilman Clarke his question and respond to it.
You answered the question. I'm satisfied with your answer.
Councilman, you have a 4 o'clock appointment. I see you still you don't respect your own rules. Life's like that.
Thank you. COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Public Safety, held in Room 401, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILL NO. 000659 - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS-BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - 98 PUBLIC SAFETY PUBLIC MEETING
The Committee on Public Safety will now have a public meeting on Bill -- there are some amendments to the bill. Could you please read the amendments to the bill, Clerk.
Under Title 10, second section, reporting requirements Subsection A, the new amended version shall read in total The police department upon receiving an application shall in a form designed by the police department insert the word "shall" require the applicant to provide the following information prior to processing of an application. On Subsection 2, this would be 2A, sub 2, delete 2; insert B. Underneath that same section, which is now numbered as A, renumbered as 1 and the section shall read In the event that the applicant no longer owns the firearm, the applicant shall, delete "sixty, (60) days," and insert "one year," so that the section would read, "In the event that the applicant no longer owns a firearm, the applicant shall within one year of the date of the original application for a concealed weapon update the information in a 99 PUBLIC SAFETY PUBLIC MEETING form provided by the police department. The last amendment in the Subsection 4, Penalties, the amendment shall be any -- delete "applicant." Insert "person" who violates any provision of this section shall, in addition to other penalties provided, delete "shall be" insert "pay" a fine of not more than $300.
Do I hear a motion for the acceptance of the amendment?
One no. The ayes have it. Could I hear a motion to move the bill out of committee, 000659 with a favorable recommendation? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I make a motion that Bill No. 24 000659 be voted with a suspension of the rules be moved out of committee with a favorable 100 PUBLIC SAFETY PUBLIC MEETING recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
One no. Let the record say that Frank Rizzo voted no the Bill. The Bill 000659 will be reported to City Council in the next session with a suspension of the rules asking for first reading in the next Session of City Council. It has been so moved and proved by the Committee on Public Safety. I want to make announcement that Resolution 000635 that was supposed to be heard today on lead water poisoning in the public school system of Philadelphia has been recessed until 3 o'clock on Monday. That's Monday the 20th at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. This meeting now recessed until Monday at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. (Applause.) (Adjourned at 4:00 p.m.) 101 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, November 15, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY BILL NO. 000659 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter