So this information right now, a gun is used and you have really very little way of tracing that gun to who owns it?
Very difficult. In fact, at best, we frequently will get the original purchaser of a gun, and it takes an extensive amount of work generally by the federal government to actually trace. You know how long it took in Columbine to trace those weapons 74 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 because the federal forms are maintained in individual gun shops where the transfers are being done. It's not a matter of putting it in a computer knowing the history of a weapon, you'd have to trace it individually. So that information is not readily available to us.
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Richmond, could you -- I'd like to go back. You threw statistics out about New York and New Jersey. Could you tell me how many police officers are employed by the New York Police Department?
49,000 police officers. How many do we have here in Philadelphia? 75 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
What would you get that motivated 38,000 Philadelphians to go out and get permits for protection? What do you think motivated those 38,000 people? What do you think the perception of our city based on that 38,000 people wanting permits to carry?
There are people who feel that they have to protect themselves, as is their right.
So perception -- 76 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 we speculate, and I can say it's more than speculation, that the 38,000 people that went out and bought a gun and went through the process, they don't feel like they're safe here and went out and got a gun. I heard something that astonished me, the number of women applying for permits. Do you have any idea how many female versus male?
No. I know that it's not uncommon. I don't know the exact numbers.
So, obviously, people are getting permits, legal permits, to carry a gun in Philadelphia because they don't think they're safe and they might not think they have enough police department or the response time isn't good enough. There's reasons why people have applied for permits to carry a gun in the City of Philadelphia. And I'm just having a tough time going after those folks that have legally -- and you even have reservations and the Law Department may whether this is even legal to do this. And I want to be cooperative, but also as a member of this committee, I want to give it a little bit of a balance, also. Thank you. 77 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Yes, sir. John McLees, Executive Director for School Safety for the School District of Philadelphia. I have a very short prepared statement. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss firearm confiscations in our public schools. During '93-'94 school year when I was first appointed executive director for school safety, 45 firearms were confiscated in our schools. I'd like to think that because of strategies that the district has implemented over the past years, we have experienced a decline in the number of firearms coming into our schools. From a high of 45 firearms in the '93-'94 school year to 15 in the '99-2000 school year. And thus far in school year 2000-2001, only one firearm has been found inside our schools. During the '99-2000 school year, 15 firearms were confiscated. No firearms were recovered from elementary schools. Three were confiscated from our middle schools, and 12 from 78 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 our high schools. During '98-'99 school year 4 firearms were confiscated, from our elementary schools, from middle schools, and 8 from high 6 school. 7 Additionally, in the '97-'98 school 8 year, firearms were confiscated; firearm was confiscated from our elementary school, 3 from the middle schools, and 18 from our high schools. The type and caliber of firearms confiscated ranged from revolvers of .22-caliber through .45-caliber and semiautomatic pistols ranging from .22-caliber to .40-caliber including two tech nine auto pistols. We believe that one of the many reasons for the consistent decline in confiscation of firearms over the past few years is directly attributable to the School District's deployment and implementation of its Safe School Entry Program. That program includes walk-through metal detectors, X-ray scanning machines, and personal student identification card system which all the children have in the high schools. And it's being expanded, as a 79 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 matter of fact, this year to our middle schools. The Board of Education mandated that the above systems be installed in all high schools as well as their annexes. This new safe school scanning program is designed to deter violence and serious physical injury in schools by inhibiting the access of weapons and other contraband into our schools. The School District of Philadelphia has made a strong and determined effort to maintain its schools as safe and secure places where students and staff can pursue the educational endeavors our children deserve. The use of firearms in conjunction with indifference for the respect of human life are draining the resources of our city, the children, of course, being our most importance resource. The Philadelphia School District Office for School Safety has maintained a long-standing commitment to depleting the number of firearms and weapons entering our schools. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLees. 80 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 You have a question, Councilman Rizzo?
First of all, I want to let you know that I personally believe that the School District police under your leadership do a great job. I know it's a tough situation. I want to follow up on a request to the Chair of this committee. This police department does a great job in compiling statistics. I'd be curious, just for my own knowledge, and again, if you can provide this to the Chair, when you track gun violence, I'd like to know how many guns, Mr. Richmond, were used in the commission of a crime that were purchased by a person that has a permit to carry a gun? Because I'd like to know how many people, how many guns came from people that have permits to carry a gun. You say that all the gun violence in the City, so I'd like to know how many guns were stolen either from a person who had a permit or sold a gun. I'd be just curious. Darrell looks like he's got that already.
I'm glad you 81 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 asked that question. I think you'll be surprised.
If I understand your question, you want to know what traces bace to an original purchaser by a permitted --
I'd be curious since we're dealing with legislation that's going to affect people that have a permit to carry, I'd be curious to know how many gun crimes were committed with guns that link back to a person that has a permit to carry. Is that clear? .
Thank you very much. We're running very close. Mr. John Mirowitz.
One quick question. With respect to some of your earlier testimony. I just want to be clear that the 82 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 numbers associated with New York are running essentially at the to ratio to the City of Philadelphia and I believe the population is approximately to 1 versus the City of 6 Philadelphia. In addition, with respect to this 7 whole self-defense issue, I think on average people probably -- I'm just throwing this out of my head based on people that I know. Probably have multiple guns. I know of instances where individuals had 50 guns and had permits to carry 50 guns. You do not need to have 50 guns for self-defense. So I just wanted to put that on the record.
The only caveat on those number is I'm a homegrown boy so I didn't come down from New York so I'm relying on statistics.
Is that it? Mr. Mirowitz, you've been to this Council before.
Yes. I hope Councilman Cohen is feeling much better. Last I heard, he was feeling rather ill. Two things remind me about today. 83 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 One, thank you for allowing me to testify. When I left the house this morning, I wasn't planning on being here, so I apologize, I don't have written presentation for you, although I will prepare one and supply it to the committee. Secondly, the issue before the committee seems to be one specific bill, which everyone seems to concede probably violates Section 6120 State preemption, probably violates --
Well then I can tell you, Councilman Ortiz, it violates Section 6120. We went to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court and they agreed --
Sir, sir, excuse me. Sir, sir. Excuse me, please. I am the chair. You will testify and you will listen. But if you're not going to respect the rules of this Council, you will not be able to do that. Okay?
Like I said, you 84 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 may have your opinion as to what the legality is. This Council legislates. The courts either decide that it is ir it isn't. You are not a judge. You have an opinion. You can state that opinion and we will listen.
You will do it with the respect that we're giving you. So you go ahead and you testify and you give your opinion as to the legality of the bill or the illegality of the bill and refrain from any other colorations as to motivations or whatever. Thank you.
I wasn't making any colorations, Councilman. I was making a simple statement of the fact. The last time I told you a gun bill was unconstitutional and violated Section 6120 State preemption. We took the issue up to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court and you lost then. I am making that same statement as to this bill; you will lose again. The provisions for the issuance of a concealed weapons carry permit are set forth by the Uniform Firearms Act. 85 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 As you well know, I sat on the State select committee that wrote or rewrote the provisions whose work led to the revisions since it came out of the State legislature. The statute calls for the state police to provide for the basis for that. It doesn't provide for City Council in Philadelphia to provide that. Now, going back to following City Council's rules, your rules call for witnesses to alternate pro and con. I have sat here since 1 o'clock this afternoon, actually earlier, I am the first opposed witness. You've had numerous witnesses --
Sir, there are no 20 rules of Council that says pro and con. Sorry, that's not the way it is handled.
The rules have not changed. 86 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Thank you. As far as confiscated firearms, since that issue has come up, let me tell you about a gentleman whose firearm was confiscated and took us three years to return it or recover it. He had the misfortune to come out of his home -- he was an employer and an employee here in Philadelphia. He owns a business, he has numerous employees. He also works for the business. It was here in Philadelphia. He came out of his home one morning to discover that there had been a shooting that was in the process a shooting. A person had been killed; horrible situation. He tried to give first aid. He tried to observe the perpetrator. He was able to get a partial license plate. He called the Philadelphia Police Department. The Philadelphia Police Department responded. Unfortunately, the victim was dead on the street. Philadelphia police then proceed to do take this gentleman, bring him in for 87 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 questioning, confiscate his carry permit, confiscate his handgun, take his information. It took us three years to get his gun back for him. They finally went after the drug dealer who shot the other drug dealer in this guy's front yard or front porch. Just because a firearm was confiscated and being held by the City of Philadelphia's Police Department doesn't mean it is being involved in a crime. Perfectly legitimate; you've got a --
That was the impression you were giving. You were asking about confiscated firearms. I was trying to give you an example of one particular instance. Now, as far as some of the violations that this bill constitutes, we have Section 23 6111.4 which is no registration. We have Section 24 6109C which provides for the format for the investigation. Nowhere in Section 6109 which 88 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 governs of issuance of carry permit is there a requirement that the applicant be a gun owner. You don't need to own a gun to get a carry permit in the State of Pennsylvania. Actually, in the State of Pennsylvania our constitution which predates, not just the federal constitution, not just the second amendment, but also the United States, the right of the Commonwealth citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the Commonwealth shall not be questioned. Now, Councilman Ortiz, you and I have gone around in circles a lot. We disagree whether there's a constitutional right for an individual to own guns. I will tell you, if this bill passes, I will take it to court. I will take it to court as a government action and denigration of a civil right.
I expect that this bill -- as we said, we expect any bill that deals with the ownership of guns to be fiercely opposed by the constituted lobbying bodies across this nation. We expect this bill to be taken to court and to -- and I imagine that you will also go to the legislature and see if there is any loophole 89 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 in the preemptive acts that prevent us from legislating for the health and safety of our citizens. And you will then -- if that loophole is there, you will then try to close that loophole so that we are prevented from legislating for the health and safety of our citizens just because you believe that the right to carry a gun, that the right to own a gun, is unassailable, it is written in stone that that is a constitutional right that the state has no 12 right to regulate --
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm perfectly capable of putting my own words in my own mouth. I am not here for any lobbying group. I am not authorized to act on behalf of any of the groups, even the ones which I am either a director or president of. I am not here on behalf of the NRA, the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania State Fish and Game Protective Association, Philadelphia Federation of Sportsman Clubs. I am here as a Philadelphian. I am not a second-class Pennsylvanian. I will not let you make me one. By you, I mean City Council in Philadelphia. 90 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Now, I had a young man -- I live across the street from Olney High School. We had a young man who was shot and I found him in my backyard. And we summoned the police and waited for them to respond while I gave him first aid. He was shot with an illegal gun because the gun was handled by minor. It's illegal for a minor to have a gun. When they go out and prosecute the young individual who shot him -- by the way, that was a dispute over who gets to sell drugs in the Olney High School football field. When they prosecute the young man who shot him, I will let you know. That was several years ago.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sir, I've heard your testimony and I am a person who believes in the right to bear firearms. As I said earlier in my testimony, I have a firearm. I'm a person that lives in a neighborhood 33rd and Berks that too frequently in the middle of the night I hear gunshots going off. You know what I mean? I'm laying there in the bed and -- 91 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Sir, will you let me talk, please? Frankly speaking, I'm not going to allow, continue to allow some state legislator from Lackawanna County or East Giblip County continue to tell us what we can do in the City of Philadelphia. These are the same people who tell us that we can't move an abandoned vehicle from the middle of a street until we go there with same regulation. These are the same people that in parts of my district that I have properties that have been vacant for 30 years, the owner's long gone dead, they say we can't acquire the property and get it into some sort of productive re-use because of state law. And I'm telling you, sir, I'm sick and tired of the State dictating to the City of Philadelphia because people say there's Philadelphia, there's Allegheny County, and the rest of the state happens to be called Alabama because some of these antiquated laws associated with some of these state legislators. So, I mean, you said that you want to 92 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 take us to court. The last time I checked, the City of Philadelphia Law Department has around 150 lawyers; am I correct, Councilman?
So, you know, if that's what we got to do, then that's what we got to do, sir. But we're going to spur the debate because I'm telling you I'm not going to continue to go home to my constituents and tell them because of some state law we can't do something to stem the tide of these guns. (Applause.)
If you want to do something about the violence in the City of Philadelphia, do something about the, quote/unquote, known drug locations that exist for decades and get passed from one generation of drug dealer to the next. Do something about the 80,000 plus outstanding bench warrants in this city where you have repeat violent offenders. If I remember correctly, when Senator Spector ran for D.A., the comment was that if you took between 800 and a thousand career criminals off the street, you took care of 80 percent of 93 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 Philadelphia's violence. Now I believe the figure is up to 1500. Those are the people with the outstanding bench warrants. If you take the career criminal off the street, you'll take care of the crime problem. If you take the repeat drug offender off the street, you will take care of that problem. Whether you'd have an intersection where you have drug dealers day in and day out, whether Fred, Joe, Larry, Hillary, Bernice, whoever, when they're all do the same thing at the same location, you want to end the problem? Do something about busting them. Taking the firearms away from a firearms owner, to a legitimate gun owner, doesn't do anything to end that crime.
Have you read the bill, sir? Can I ask you a question with respects to your testimony? Have you read the bill?
Can I finish my statement? 94 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
I'm going to allow you to respond. I mean, you're making statements that are not relevant to the bill. We're not talking about confiscating anybody's firearms.
You were saying that the justification for the bill is to do something about the crimes and the violence in the City of Philadelphia.
I'm saying if you want to do something about the crimes and violence in the City of Philadelphia, take the drug dealers off the street, take the criminals off the street.
Sir, what we're attempting to do is to create an environment that will allow the police adequately trace the illegal guns, that's all. If you have illegal guns, sir -- 95 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659
Excuse me. Sir, you will talk to the bill. You have said that you're going to take it to court if we pass it. That's fine, that's your prerogative, that's your right. You will relate your testimony to the bill. We've heard all of the sermons. We have jails that we keep on filling with criminals, sir, so we don't need to hear. We understand very clearly. What we are trying to do here is exercise our legislative duty to look at --
Councilman, can I answer the question that the other Councilman put to me?
-- the health and safety. Have you finished testifying about the bill?
I was trying to answer a question the Councilman put to me. Do you want me to answer his question?
Yes, I said I've read 96 11/15/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL NO. 000659 the bill. You then asked me how it related -- how my statement related --
You mentioned confiscation of guns. Our bill does not address that. It does not speak of confiscation.
That was a prefatory remark and that was comment that I made before I made my statement because there seemed to be some confusion --
Have finished your testimony as to the bill, the legality or illegality of the bill?
I'd like to discuss with Councilman Clarke his question and respond to it.
You answered the question. I'm satisfied with your answer.
Councilman, you have a 4 o'clock appointment. I see you still you don't respect your own rules. Life's like that.
Thank you. COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Public Safety, held in Room 401, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILL NO. 000659 - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS-BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - 98 PUBLIC SAFETY PUBLIC MEETING
The Committee on Public Safety will now have a public meeting on Bill -- there are some amendments to the bill. Could you please read the amendments to the bill, Clerk.
Under Title 10, second section, reporting requirements Subsection A, the new amended version shall read in total The police department upon receiving an application shall in a form designed by the police department insert the word "shall" require the applicant to provide the following information prior to processing of an application. On Subsection 2, this would be 2A, sub 2, delete 2; insert B. Underneath that same section, which is now numbered as A, renumbered as 1 and the section shall read In the event that the applicant no longer owns the firearm, the applicant shall, delete "sixty, (60) days," and insert "one year," so that the section would read, "In the event that the applicant no longer owns a firearm, the applicant shall within one year of the date of the original application for a concealed weapon update the information in a 99 PUBLIC SAFETY PUBLIC MEETING form provided by the police department. The last amendment in the Subsection 4, Penalties, the amendment shall be any -- delete "applicant." Insert "person" who violates any provision of this section shall, in addition to other penalties provided, delete "shall be" insert "pay" a fine of not more than $300.
Do I hear a motion for the acceptance of the amendment?
One no. The ayes have it. Could I hear a motion to move the bill out of committee, 000659 with a favorable recommendation? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I make a motion that Bill No. 24 000659 be voted with a suspension of the rules be moved out of committee with a favorable 100 PUBLIC SAFETY PUBLIC MEETING recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
One no. Let the record say that Frank Rizzo voted no the Bill. The Bill 000659 will be reported to City Council in the next session with a suspension of the rules asking for first reading in the next Session of City Council. It has been so moved and proved by the Committee on Public Safety. I want to make announcement that Resolution 000635 that was supposed to be heard today on lead water poisoning in the public school system of Philadelphia has been recessed until 3 o'clock on Monday. That's Monday the 20th at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. This meeting now recessed until Monday at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. (Applause.) (Adjourned at 4:00 p.m.) 101 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, November 15, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY BILL NO. 000659 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter