All right. Thank you. Mr. Lavery, do you have any questions?
Yes. Mr. Shelter, I guess I should say good evening at this point.
Just a clarificatory question.
You had mentioned near neighbors who had become supportive of the project.
Are you referring to Carolyn and John Friedman at 202 West Chestnut Hill Avenue?
Yes, I am. I think their letter was they had no objection.
thank you for clarifying mr chairman let me let me just indicate that um whatever rules of evidence
this board you might utilize that is the ultimate in hearsay if these people want to come forward
in hearsay if these people want to come forward and and come before this board i think that that's
and and come before this board
i i i i would i would say when when mr shelter started to talk spoke about they i didn't hear
you say anything you never you never stopped them i mean am i correct well okay when mr labor says
that he spoke to them i mean that i mean i think he originally said that i i they told me what
they told. Let me make this easier for let me just make this easier. A letter is in the record
from the Freedmen's. And I wanted to clarify the statement. So the letter speaks for itself.
All right. It's Mr. Snowden there. Excuse me. Can I say one more thing? I did speak with
Mr. Friedman. Why don't we do this? I agree with your testimony, but I but I but I think
you've testified and unless the attorneys have another question we should move on but we do
appreciate your testimony mr snowden please unmute yourself and wait for the chair thank you
i'm mr snowden could you please state your name and spell for the court stenographer
yes richard snowden s-n-o-w-d-e-n right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth
nothing but the truth. Yes, sir. Mr. Snowden, are you a neighbor? I live in Chestnut Hill. I am not
a near neighbor, but I am president of one of the principal RCOs in the community. Please proceed,
sir. Thank you, Chairman. I should say this. Are you in favor of the project or against? I am in
favor of the project. And Mr. Snowden, could you let us know what you know about this that's
different than what we've already heard? Yes, it has to do with the Business Improvement District,
which I represent, and also a number of other things. Let's proceed.
First, as the president of the Chestnut Hill Business Improvement District, I represent 1,200
businesses and property owners in Chestnut Hill because hundreds of thousands of visitors come
to our community annually to enjoy our historic sites of which Greylock is a part. We view our
Historic District is our brand and the protection of it as essential to our economic success. This
is why our organization voted overwhelmingly, in fact unanimously, to support this project.
Second, I'm here as an historic preservation activist with 50 years experience in historic
preservation in Philadelphia, including as a founder and first chair of the Board of the
Preservation Alliance for Greater Philadelphia. For 25 years, I have worked continuously to
shepherd the Greylock property to an adaptive reuse that respected its great historic qualities.
In 2000, leading a group of neighbors, we tried to buy the property in order to preserve it.
And when that failed, I negotiated the easements to which the project is subject today.
For the first time since then, we finally have a project before us that is able to fulfill the
spirit of those easements, which I helped write and to make sure that the property is productively
put in service. As a former board member of the Chestnut Hill Conservancy, I was privy to the
details of the numerous failed attempts to save Greylock. In Mr. Shankman's proposal, we are
fortunate to have a project that is financially viable and respects Chestnut Hill's historic
district and community at large. Third, I'm here as a business owner with extensive knowledge as
to how to plan and execute projects exactly like Greylock. Since 1981, my company Bowman Properties
has undertaken historic preservation work on over a hundred Chestnut Hill buildings
of Greylock's vintage and older, many of equal complexity. We presently own and manage over a
historic buildings in the Chesson Hill Historic District. The project before us is a very difficult
proposition to execute properly, both financially and in terms of actual construction. Having
studied Mr. Shankman's project extensively, my 43 years of experience in this field tells me
that his team has the ability, knowledge, financial muscle, and good taste to give my community
a project in which we can take pride for many years to come.
Finally, the time has come for the Chestnut Hill community and the City of Philadelphia
to take a practical approach to Greylock.
For 25 years, this magnificent mansion has sat waiting for a savior.
Neighbors, community groups, the city, and many others have had countless opportunities
to do something different, and they have not.
At last, we have a project on the table that fulfills most, if not all, of the many laudable goals for the property brought forth by our preservation advocates.
by our preservation advocates. As the old saying goes, don't let perfection be the enemy of the
As the old saying goes, don't let...
good by letting Greylock face another 25 years of ruin. Please support the Schenkman proposal
for Greylock. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Stoughton. Does either attorney have a question?
I just have a question. Thank you. I just have a couple. Mr. Stoughton, we know each other
well don't we i mean we know each other i know i know of you yes i do okay and when you talked
about you were part of the group that gave the easements could you tell the board well let me
ask it a different way would you agree with me that when you gave the easements to the then
owner of property that there was a benefit that the owner got as a result of the easements being
given? Well, first of all, I did not give the easements. When the neighbor group failed to
purchase the property back in 2000, a near neighbor on the other side of the property and I
went and met with the person who wanted it at auction. And we convinced him that it would be
a great idea for him to put the easements there. We negotiated the easements, and then with the
Chestnut Hill Conservancy, we wrote them. So I am intimately familiar with them.
And was there a financial benefit to the then owner of the property?
Well, interestingly, no, but not really.
Well, was there any tax benefit that they got?
he never took the uh tax benefit how do you know that how do you know he didn't take the tax
objection this is all before the current owner it's irrelevant the board has ruled on this issue
i i think i think we want to concentrate on where we are today right mr chairman what what has
happened is that there were easements that were granted and the person who got who gave up
their rights on the property and gave the easements to
the organization that granted them the easements
gets a benefit from it. And that benefit is then passed
down from generation to generation on the property.
That's all my point is, Mr. Chairman. And I just have one other question, Mr.
Snowden. Mr. Snowden, you own
a great deal of property in Chestnut Hill
So, including, am I correct, whether you operate or not, but retail property on Germantown Avenue, isn't that correct?
That's correct.
I have nothing further.
Mr. Laver.
No questions. Thank you, Mr. Snowden.
Mr. Snowden, thank you for your testimony.
When we started today, I think Hillary made it real clear we were going to go for an hour.
We've reached an hour.
So what we're going to do is we're going to have another hearing. At that hearing, we'll get to the point that Mr. Feynman can finish his case, and then we're going to finish up, okay?
Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? Mr. Feynman has done an amazing job in prolonging this case. The initial application was filed 15 months ago.
So I understand and respect, Chairman Bergman, what you just said, but it's critical that we be very precise regarding exactly what will be heard at the resumption hearing that you just mentioned.
It seems like we've gotten through all of the public testimony, and I believe Mr. Feynman has two witnesses that he has identified.
Just so it's clear, I have in front of me a loose-leaf book.
in those least leaf book i have uh one two three four five statements that i would read and then
have other the witnesses uh agree with the testimony similar to what this board has done
over that's right and by then we'll we'll introduce and we'll give you pictures that
were taken on the property other than that that should be everything and I I would say unless
unless unless something comes to my attention but quite frankly I'm not trying to prolong anything
that I would did it in this fashion so that the board could hear it in a in a manner that was
We strenuously object, Mr. Chairman.
The council for the zoning board had clearly made arrangements for two witnesses to be heard.
had clearly uh made arrangements for two witnesses to be heard uh and now the the the the uh
parameters keep on changing so hold up hold up hold up i think i think i there were people who
wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute we were originally told there was going to be two witnesses
i think what he's just said he's going to read statements that he has from a total of five people
that'll be it thank you mr chairman and thank both of you um hillary do you have any comments
mr chairman i realized i was mute for a second one of the reasons i did this
was so they wouldn't prolong testimony from people in the virtual audience quite frankly
i understand i understand i understand hillary do you have any comments
um i just i just wanted to note that we'll also take the recommendation of the planning
commission at the next hearing that's right mr mr fineman you mentioned something about showing
pictures how much time would you anticipate that would take i imagine reading five statements into
the record shouldn't take more than maybe 10 15 minutes but how much time do you anticipate for
the pictures the pictures would take maybe five minutes maybe okay thank you we will be in touch
once we determine um when we can hold the final resumption hearing in this case look at our
calendar but this is this is helpful to know how much time that we need so that we know what we
can schedule it could we please state on the record the two witnesses that will testify so
we know that their names i don't think we need to do that but if you i don't know if the chairman
is going to be a request. It's not two.
It's five.
Just so we said,
just what he said, initially,
Adam, our information was he was going to have
two witnesses. I think what he said is,
look, I have five, but instead
of people coming in to testify, I
will read what they would have said.
And some of those people
would have testified today.
I'm trying to work
with the board to make it less
i understand i understand i understand so that's where we are and i think we have an understanding
how long it's going to take and we will do everything we can to finish this the next time
we get together thank you both thank you thank you for the board's consideration thank you thank
you for your patience mr mr chair this is hillary i just want to note if um if mr feiman i know he's
he's provided some names and emails before but if he could um just email all parties the names of
those five witnesses just for clarity um as to who's testifying that would be that would be
help i mean who's testifying who who he's reading statements on behalf of that would be helpful
thank you i will do that and and i would reserve for myself maybe five minutes to make some closing
argument mr chairman we understand um is there anyone in the virtual audience whose uh 330 case
has not been called i see no handshare um thanks everybody i think we got a lot accomplished today
appreciate everybody staying a little later and uh thank you all and and by the way enjoy some time
next week all right i think the phillies are getting killed tonight by the way but
good night good night everybody thank you good night everyone problem