COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, 6/12/01, 10:14 a.m. - - - BILL 000657 - Prohibiting placement of temporary signs and political campaign posters upon public utility poles, streetlights, and various other public fixtures. BILL 010269 - Requiring any establishment that sells alcoholic beverages for consumption on or off the premises to install, maintain, and use electronic equipment that scans identification cards and displays age of person as indicated on card. BILL 010274 - Amending Philadelphia Building Code by adding provisions for dumping of waste materials. BILL 010369 - Amending designated area in which properties must be located for participation in Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE, Vice Chair COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 6/12/01 L&I COMMITTEE I N D E X Page Bill 000657 Otis Haigler, Jr., Regulatory Affairs, L&I Bill 010369 Otis Haigler, Jr., Regulatory Affairs, L&I 30 Belinda Mayo, Director, Neighborhood. . . . . 32 Program Coordination and Community Development Jessica Diaz, Mayor's Office. . . . . . . . . 34 of Neighborhood Transformation Bill 010269 Ray Swardlow, Owner . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98 Amazing and Fabulous Six Pack Store Lt. Sean Carr, Commanding Officer . . . . . . 105 Citywide Vice Enforcement Unit, Philadelphia PD Lt. Michael Clemens, PA State Police. . . . . 110 BILL 010274 Otis Haigler, Jr., Regulatory Affairs, L&I 118 3 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 P R O C E E D I N G S
The Committee on L&I is in session to hear testimony on Bill NO. 5 000657, 010369, 010269, 010274. Present is: myself, Councilman Mariano; Councilman Nutter; Councilwoman Krajewski; Councilwoman Reynolds Brown; and Councilman Darrell Clarke; and Councilman Frank Rizzo. The clerk will read Bill No. 000657.
Bill No. 000657, an ordinance amending Chapter 10-1200 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Posting of Temporary Signs," by amending Section 10-1202 to prohibit the placement of temporary signs and political campaign posters upon public utility poles, streetlights, and various other public fixtures without the owner's permission, subject to certain terms and conditions.
Anyone here to testify for this bill? Mr. Haigler, state your name. (Witness comes forward.)
Good day, Councilman Mariano and members of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative 4 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 and Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I'm here to provide testimony on Bill No. 000657, which, if enacted, will amend Section 10-1200 of the Philadelphia Code to require permission prior to the placement of any temporary sign or political campaign poster to public utility poles, street lights, and other appurtenances without the permission of the owner or of the agency responsible for the maintenance of such fixture or appurtenances. With respect to Bill 000657, the Department of Licenses and Inspections offers no 15 objections to the enactment of the proposed bill. Thank you, and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.
Any questions from members of the committee for Mr. Haigler? Councilman Rizzo.
Mr. Haigler, the present requirement -- I believe that political posters aren't permitted at all. Tell us exactly what the utility and what the understanding of the utility has in the City of Philadelphia presently of 5 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 placing anything on the pole. Any attachment, I believe, is appropriate.
The present requirement does allow for it but it just says you can't use any type of adhesive to attach the poster to the sign.
A wood utility pole in the City of Philadelphia, do you know what the present...
I'm a little confused on where we are and where we're going, because I thought for years and years and years, there was a prohibition of placing anything on a wood pole and definitely the glue, the permanent adhesive on the --
Well, I worked for the utility company for a lot of years, and I know that we used to get lots of calls and there was an 6 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 ordinance that prohibited the attachment of campaign posters, and basically the utility looked the other way 'cause they didn't want to create a problem, but I believe we have something on the books right now that's very clear.
Well, I'm looking at Section 10-1202 of the Philadelphia Code from the bill that we have, and it deals with prohibited conduct. And if I could just go down the list of what it says, that it currently would be a prohibition on where you could place the signs. It says, under "Prohibited Conduct," under number 1: "No stickers, as defined under Section 15 10-1201-6, shall be permitted to be affixed to any public or private property except with the permission of the owner. "No temporary signs which advertises or promotes a service, business, or other event..." -- no, that would not be it. Number 3, "No ground signs shall be permitted unless securely attached to a pole or other immoveable supporting structures." Number 4, "No political campaign poster shall be affixed in any manner [and under the 7 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 current provision] to any type of metal utility pole or any type of tree." Number 4(b), "No political campaign poster shall be allowed to remain posted for over 30 days." So there's nothing, as I can see under the current requirements under the prohibition, that speaks of wooden utility poles.
So you're telling me today it is before this legislation that there's no 12 restriction on placing a campaign poster on a wood utility pole.
That's another ordinance, Councilman. Point of information, Mr. Haigler. In a nutshell, basically the reason that I'm doing this bill is, these stickers, these posters, if it's for my Council campaign, for anything, if it's for a diet supplement, if it's for a roofing company, if it's for anything, it's actually another form of 8 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 graffiti in my opinion. And if we're going to start cleaning up the City and start doing things, that's the reason this bill is here, and we'll work on that in this Council. But I think maybe what Councilman Rizzo was working on -- I mean, at one time, you could go pay 50 cents or cents a sticker, and for every 9 poster you put up -- I mean, there's some political 10 candidates -- there's one candidate that just ran 11 successfully for Judge Kevin Dougherty, who's a 12 friend of mine. Kevin has a campaign where he takes 13 posters down and he pays people to take posters 14 down. And even if there are other people's posters 15 -- after the election of course -- and he pays 'em 16 so much a poster and other -- I think Councilman 17 DiCicco had done that in the past and maybe some 18 other people. 19
I don't put posters 22 on poles and I -- and anyone who accepts my posters, 23 I instruct them not to do that. 24
They can put 'em in 9 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 their windows.
Your point was well taken. I think my point was, you were involved at one time in a campaign to take posters down, and your group paid --
Yeah, I was almost run out of these chambers because I was told I was ripping up the Constitution at the time. So what can I tell you.
We can adjust a little, but I think that's where we're at, Mr. Haigler. Okay, does that answer your question?
Just if you could, I'm still not clear where we are today and what exists today that will change.
Well, Councilman, in my opinion, where we are today is everybody does pretty much what they want. When this is done, there will be no posters anywhere, anything -- political -- not just political, anything. And 10 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 that's where we're going to be. And if you want to, like Councilman DiCicco said, if you want to put a Councilman DiCicco reelection poster, put it in the window of your house, put it on your front lawn, but if you don't want to, you don't have to. But, you know, that's where we're at. After today if this passes in the committee and it passes in the Council of the Whole, there will be no more posters of any kinds on any billboards --
Are there restrictions today that are just being over -- not enforced? In other words, are we reinventing the wheel? Is it already there?
No. No matter what -- I'm not sure exactly what it is. I have an idea of what the rules are. I think L&I may not be able to comply with every rule. I don't think they have the wherewithal or the means. I'm not speaking for Mr. Haigler; that's what I think. They do go around if people complain 11 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 'cause I've complained. There's somebody that sells part-time jobs; they've taken theirs down and there was a guy putting it in windows all over the Northeast. They get fined and they go to certain administrative things. After this bill, there will no more signs of any kind on any poles -- metal, wood, fiberglass, or anything new that comes out.
From the perspective of the utility company, which I don't believe anything's changed --
Obviously. The utility company today is of the impression that any attachment, other than one that's authorized by the utility and the utility has allowed SEPTA to place the SEPTA bus stop identifications on the utility pole and -- but as far as I'm concerned today, we've already got the legislation that prohibits what we're here discussing, and I'm just --
Point of order to Councilman Rizzo's question. I'm not clear what you're saying. You're saying we already have it, but we don't have a ban. I think there are 12 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 procedures -- and Mr. Haigler, I apologize for getting here late -- in which one who wants to post posters would have to follow certain regulations. You have to, I think, make application and pay for each poster and you get a little sticker and then you have a certain amount of time in which the posters must be removed.
Today, the impression of the utility company is that any attachment to their pole is an illegal, inappropriate --
Point of order. And, Councilman DiCicco, hold on. Councilman Rizzo, we get the point for the utility company and we understand. I think this will help the utility company. The problem -- and, Councilman DiCicco, you can correct me if I'm wrong -- is we have something on the books that's not working. We don't enforce it and nobody goes and pays the fines and nobody pays the 50 cents or whatever, right?
What you have on the books 13 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 right now primarily allows campaign posters to be installed on the poles as long as they're not installed with certain types of adhesives or glues. What you are attempting to pass will, in essence, prohibit that unless they get the permission of the utility company prior to installing. So whether you want to install it with some other method, you'd be --
Mr. Haigler, but that's just campaign. If we want to do our business, there's no way we can do that, right?
Is that just political posters that can do that, pay for that little sticker that nobody uses anyhow? And I emphasize that point.
Any temporary sign or political campaign poster, any temporary sign.
Yeah, again, I 14 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 apologize. I don't know if you spoke to this, Mr. Haigler, before I came here. Currently, if you want to put a poster on a pole, whether it's political or a carnival or what you have what, is the timeframe? Is it 30 days prior to the election?
And then how many days after do you have to take them down?
So it's 75 days. So, hypothetically, you have a primary election, so prior to the election and subsequent to the election, it's a total of 75 days. Now you go into the general, you get another 75 days. So 150 days all told, there's a possibility that posters would be up, assuming everyone followed the law as it is that you put 'em up no sooner than 45 days and you take 'em down no later than 30 days. So for almost 50 percent of the year, posters -- political 15 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 carnival, whatever it is -- theoretically could stay up legally.
So I want to know how you get rid of the visual pollution. 'Cause it's six months of the year legally you could keep 'em up -- if you do everything according to the books, you take out the permit, you pay for the sticker, whatever the stamp is, and you do it within the 45 days and the 30 days --
So, Councilman, your point is, half the year, we have this "visual pollution," as you call it.
And when we're dealing with issues on blight, which is a very hot issue right now in this Council, I know about three, four weeks ago, I was out in the New Hope area, took a Sunday ride, and I remember when I came back into the City, I came back by way of 611, North Broad Street, and I knew I was in the City immediately from the political posters that were all over the 16 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 poles along North Broad Street, where the City spent literally millions of dollars for new light fixtures. And in fact, some people from Councilman Clarke's district were complaining about the auto dealers that are along Broad Street and they also had a problem with the posters. And I can tell you right now, on Columbus Boulevard, which is not yet complete on the reconstruction, but when they're done, between the City, the State, and the feds, we will have spent about $75 million of taxpayers' dollars to beautify that boulevard, streetscape enhancements, and if you went out there today, it is a disgrace when you see the posters and all of the other paraphernalia that have been plastered onto those poles. I just don't get how we can allow that kind of blight to continue in this city.
What about the center islands on that boulevard that are plastered by the lawn signs that are put into the public areas? I mean, if you're going to include it, then -- you talk about the beautiful suburbs, the off-ramps of 309 are plastered with the lawn signs and --
Councilman, I think 17 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 the bill already reads "any public or private property without the express written consent of --
That's up to you. I don't -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
And you know what's going to happen here, if we have the intestinal fortitude to do this bill, and we're all guilty of it -- if nobody in here is not guilty of it, then hooray for you. Councilman, I know you're the only one in the political history of Philadelphia that didn't put a sign up and I commend you for that. But what happens here is, there's always going to be somebody complaining. Some carnival's going to give us a hard time, but you can always take them posters and put 'em in a store or put 'em in your front window. There's always, you know, 18 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 there's -- if somebody's going to have a yard sale always, you can always put 'em in your front window, you can always put 'em in a store. So unless we do this, like Councilman DiCicco says, it's only being done half the year, so let's totally do it and do away with all of 'em and start looking like we live in the suburbs instead of complaining about it all the time. Councilwoman Brown, do you have a question?
Yes. We are what we are. We're not the suburbs, we're the City of Philadelphia. I'm interested in knowing to what level is there any information that speaks to the extent to which after political campaign posters are taken down or not taken down by the candidates.
Yes. In the bill -- or in the current law, under current law, I believe there is a provision that says that each candidate or campaign committee that does not remove his or her political or campaign poster from where it was posted, as required by the section, and then it talks about 1202, subsection 4(b) above, shall be 19 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 assessed or fined $1 for each such unremoved poster.
Can you speak at all to the enforcement piece of that? Can you speak at all to recent elections where candidates have not honored those rules?
I really have no 8 information on that that I really can speak on, I really don't know. (Committee members confer among themselves off the record.)
I don't know if it is enforced or not enforced, I just don't know. I would have to check with our Business Compliance Unit to determine that. I really don't know.
It appears if it were enforced, we wouldn't be talking about this.
A point of information. I would venture to guess it's not enforced, okay? And for obvious reasons, it's not enforced. And, you know, many of us here have reasons to want to have posters and let's just get 20 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 down to the nitty-gritty. We'll do this hearing, we'll vote on it, and everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Mr. Chairman and to Councilwoman Reynolds Brown's question, I'd be curious -- not only are people complying with the removal of posters, but I'd be curious if anyone even pays the fees for the stickers that go on the posters in the first place. I don't -- I can't imagine, I've never seen them, and I'm not saying 'cause I haven't seen 'em, they're not out there, but I'd be surprised if 1 percent of the people who put posters up actually pay for the stickers and do what they're supposed to do. I mean, I'm out there every day, I see them. I have a gentleman behind me who lives on South Broad Street. He and about 15 other neighbors every -- once a month they get together and they take a three square-block area of South Broad Street and they do a cleanup. Half their day is spent removing posters. There's $5 million on 21 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 South Broad Street south of Washington Avenue, and all they do is tear down posters. And the tape -- when they do it without the glue, we appreciate that, but the tape that they use, when you peel the tape off, it literally takes the paint off the metal.
And, again, I don't want us to be the suburbs either, Councilwoman. I'm not suggesting that, but I think that there's a certain amount of respect that we should give the communities.
Many community groups like to string a banner across the roadway when they're having a festival or a block party. They tie it off to utility poles from one side of the street to the other. What would this do to the ability for the community association in northwest to string a banner across Germantown Avenue to announce their festival?
Mr. Haigler, do you want to take a shot at Councilman Rizzo's question? 22 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657
As I understand your question about stringing banners across the --
I'll give you an example. Fifth and Lehigh, there's going to be an event in the business district on Fifth Street, and the community group wants to put -- or the business association wants to string a banner from her pole to pole across the street to announce the --
A banner is still considered a temporary sign, so they still would need permission to do that.
Right. I think we need to talk to the utilities, you know, do they have a process? Who does the community group -- I can't imagine PECO Energy giving anybody permission to put anything, for liability reasons, written 23 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 permission in the event that a truck would snag the banner and break off the pole, I just can't imagine the electric utility company giving written or verbal permission to anyone.
Excuse me. The bottom line here, Councilman, is, we have more laws on the books that are not enforced and we keep making more and more. My problem -- and I'm sure everyone else here feels the same way -- is that the laws that are not on the books are not enforced. We do have a bill, but my -- what is the answer? How do we enforce the laws that are on the books now?
And that will still allow some level of freedom of speech with those who oftentimes have the need to get their message across?
The only thing I can say, Councilman, is that with limited staff and resources of our department -- we only have 20 inspectors within our Business Compliance Unit that also deal with other issues that they have to enforce related to business regulatory enforcement. And with those issues and the limited amount of staff that we have, 24 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 we do the best we can with our resources. So that's the only answer I can really give.
Councilman Cohen. He's been waiting patiently. Go ahead, Councilman.
Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you. First, there's a distinction between the commercial advertising that's attached to poles and the political posters. I think the political posters raise a First Amendment question. Secondly, it is very interesting that we're talking about eliminating blight and that most of the speeches are being made by somebody who supports what many people in the country regard as the biggest blight of all -- the billboards. So it seems very strange to me to be talking about removal of posters as a serious approach to the removal of blight.
Well, I believe the billboards is a separate bill. Let's go on with --
We're elected officials. We could do what we want, but the rest 25 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 of society can't do it.
Councilman, you know, I would hate to do this but if we could stay to this bill. I know you feel very strong about that other bill, but keep everything germane to this bill.
Yeah, well, I think it's very germane because there's been a discussion about blight.
But, Councilman, this is posters; this isn't billboards.
I'm not going to 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 spend the day talking about billboards, Councilman. We've done that till the cows come home and we'll have that vote this week, hopefully. Let's just do this. This is political posters and other posters on poles. This is it.
And I don't think it's a matter of blight. With respect to political posters, it's always very comfortable for incumbents to want to make it as difficult as possible for anybody else to ever run for office. The poles have been a means by which new people -- and I think we want to encourage new people coming into the political system at all times to --
Well, what are you trying to say, Councilman, that you're for this?
If you permit me to say it, I will say it. I'm not very bashful, Councilwoman, about saying what I believe in.
Oh, I know that. And I'm not very shy either. 27 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657
What I'm saying is that I believe that it will be a violation of the First Amendment rights if you ban political postering.
Point of order. Councilman, you and I know that five years ago when I attempted this same bill -- I don't have the information in front of me. There was a ban on political posters that was proposed in the State of California. The case went up to the United States Supreme Court and the United States Supreme Court ruled that it is not a violation of individual rights or freedom of speech to eliminate posters from being erected because there are other means of advertisement and getting your information out. Now, you know that and I know that. I was run out of Council almost five years ago. I don't think we need to rehash that. The Supreme Court of the United States said -- 28 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657
It's not the interpretation. The Supreme Court of the United States said it is not a violation of your civil rights, right to freedom of speech to prohibit political posters. It's not interpretation; it's what they said.
I don't agree with that interpretation of the court's decision and, therefore, I believe that we are raising a serious First Amendment question. And, secondly, I think we're depriving people that have small income that get involved in the political process from having an approach of getting their names known. And I believe this is a bad deal. 29 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 000657 I also believe that the issue is with respect to the commercial purveyors who put their advertiser on is totally different. They are seeking to make a profit out of the electric poles or any other things to which they can attach a sign. On that I believe, there has been a prohibition over many years and there the question is one clearly of enforcement.
Thank you, Councilman. Any other questions for Mr. Haigler? (No further questions.)
Could Mr. Haigler get us information as to why these laws are not enforced? And if they are enforced, what has been the effect of it and the revenues to be gotten from it? If they enforce it, they should be able to get something, a nice piece of change.
How fast can you do that, Mr. Haigler? We might want to vote this bill 5 out today. Any other questions for Mr. Haigler? (No further questions.)
Okay, will the clerk read the title for Bill No. 010369.
Bill No. 010369, an ordinance amending Section PM 309.0 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program," by amending the designated area in which properties must be located in order to be eligible for participation in the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program under certain terms and conditions.
Good day, Councilman Mariano and members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative and Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I'm here to provide testimony on 31 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 Bill 010369, which, if enacted, will amend Section 3 PM-309 of the property maintenance code to add wards and locations which will be subject to the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program. With respect to Bill 6 010369, the Department of Licenses and Inspections offers no objections to the enactment of the proposed bill. Thank you. I'll be happy to answer any questions you have at this time.
Any questions for Mr. Haigler from anyone from the committee?
What is the impact of these amendments? Can you tell me what adding these wards will do?
I believe, under Section 17 PM-309, there are certain wards designated in the City as part of the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program. These wards are looked upon for relief relative to lots, vacant buildings for abatement. I don't have the code specifically in front of me to go into all of the code requirements of that, but there are certain provisions under Section PM-309 that periodically Council Councilmembers add particular wards to the list of 32 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 wards for emergency nuisance abatement, and that includes vacant lots as well as vacant buildings for abatement.
Councilman Ortiz, this might help you. The Administration is going to testify next, and I think they'll be able to answer your question better; is that right, ladies? Would you just come up and testify? Can stay there too, Mr. Haigler. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good morning, Chairman Mariano and members of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. I am Belinda Mayo, the Director of Neighborhood Program Coordination and Community Development at the Office of Housing and Community Development. I am pleased to be here today to offer the Administration's support for Bill 010369. Which would expand the number of wards and divisions that are included by ordinance in the Emergency Nuisance Abatement Program and will allow the City to 33 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 actively implement the Small Vacant Lot Abatement Program. Attached to my testimony for your information is a complete description of the program. As many of you are aware, there are thousands of small vacant and abandoned lots scattered throughout the City of Philadelphia that are eyesores in the neighborhoods and communities. Many are encumbered by municipal liens and delinquent taxes that often exceed both the property's economic development value. Others are the result of demolition of vacant and dilapidated structures. Although many of these properties are in public ownership many more are privately owned but long since abandoned. The Small Vacant Lot Abatement Program is an effort to eliminate blight caused by these small trash-filled lots. Unfortunately, the current system by which to acquire and dispose of these small lots is cumbersome and lengthy. The Small Vacant Lot Abatement Program provides a cost- effective and efficient mechanism to clean, acquire, and dispose of these small --
Miss Mayo, if I may. 34 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 I think we know about the program. I just -- we're here just to discuss why weren't these wards included when this bill was first introduced and heard?
I believe that was the Councilmembers' choice as to whether or not wards in their particular districts were --
Well, there must have been testimony as to why the exclusion.
There must have been some testimony as to why the exclusion.
Councilman, if I could. My name is Jessica Diaz, and I'm speaking on behalf of the Mayor's Office of Neighborhood Transformation. This ordinance was already on the books 35 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 and in place prior to this administration taking office. What we did was basically help to launch the program and get it operational.
It is my understanding that not every single ward -- THIS IS still not a citywide program. However, all Councilmembers have been polled by the Administration and those wards that were not originally included, you know, are now listed under this amendment to be included.
No. Still at this point, it is not a citywide program. There are certain wards that are still excluded as per choice of certain Councilmembers.
Could you give me one moment, Councilman? (Witness confers with colleague off the record.)
I just want it for 36 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 the record.
Councilman, I guess in response to your question, I can get that information to you. It is my understanding that Council President Verna's office polled each individual Councilmember to see and compare, I guess, from the original ordinance what wards were not included or that they wished to include under this, I guess, amendment that's before you today. But it is, of course, the official position of the Administration that we do not object to the addition of any wards in this program.
The position of the Administration is that we hoped that this would be a citywide program.
I'd like for you to submit that list of the wards that are excluded.
It's in the ordinance in the 37 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 current code. The new --
Wait a second, hold it. Point of information. What are we reading into the record, all the ones that are included?
I would just like it for the record just to see what parts of the City are excluded from certain legislation and --
Can I talk to you a minute on the side, Councilman. (Councilmembers Mariano and Ortiz confer off the record.)
The ward in which I'm 38 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 the ward leader, am I included or excluded? No 3 one's ever spoken to me about it.
There's additional wards than the wards that are currently eligible.
Okay. The ordinance 8 currently includes wards that are already --
The ordinance includes the wards that are currently eligible as well as the ones that are being proposed today.
I'm not following you. Is the 17th Ward included currently prior to this amendment?
Point of order. I think Councilman Ortiz has the floor and he has a question on the floor. Do you still want that question answered?
Mr. Chairman, if it's your desire that these not be in the record, that's fine with me. I guess I --
Well, you know, let's just say it as it is. I mean, I think 39 6/12/01 L&I - BILL 010369 everybody knows what this bill is about, and the magic word here is --