COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 401 City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, June 10, 1998 2:00 p.m. - - - BILL 980239 - an Ordinance amending Section 9-402 and 10-108 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Animal Drawn Carriages" and "Rental and Carriage Horses," respectively, as well as the approved route map for carriage horses, to change the working conditions for horses and to restrict carriage horse routes and business hours, all under certain terms and conditions. BILL 980388 - an Ordinance amending Section 9-205 of The Philadelphia Code, relating to sidewalk sales, by adding a new provision prohibiting sidewalk sales on Verree Road from Oxford Avenue to Bloomfield Road and Rhawn Street from Pine Road to Algon Avenue. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY, Chairman COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER, Vice Chairman COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN FRANK DI CICCO COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X BILL 980239 DOUG ORDELL ---------------------------------- RANDALL HIRSCHORN, Health Department ------- VALERIE PHILLIPS, Animal Advisor Comm. ----- ERIK HENDRICKS, PA SPCA -------------------- 6 DR. HOLLY CHEEVER -------------------------- 47 7 WILLIAM HAWKINS ---------------------------- 67 8 MICHAEL SLOCUM ----------------------------- 73 9 BARRY PENN --------------------------------- 79 10 JOSH GRIMES -------------------------------- 86 11 IRWIN ROBINSON ----------------------------- 87 12 CANDICE SCHAEFFER, CARE -------------------- 90 13 DEBBIE KRAMER, CARE ------------------------ 95 14 LESLIE WOOD -------------------------------- 96 15 BILL 980388 16 JOHN P. CAMPBELL, L & I, Legistlative Regulatory 17 Affairs Manager ----------------------- 103 RICHARD BONO ------------------------------- 104 3 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
We will now have a hearing by the Council Committee on Licenses and Inspections chaired by Councilman Kenney.
Good afternoon. I am Councilman Kenney on License and Inspections. We have two bills for hearing today. Our present first bill is Bill No. 98 -- please I'd ask that we have silence in the room because no one can hear. If you need to speak, please go in the hallway. Bill No. 980239 is an ordinance amending section 9-402 and 10-108 of the Philadelphia code entitled "Animal Drawn Carriages" and "Rental and Carriage Horses," respective, as well as the approved route map for carriage horses, change in the working conditions of horses and to restrict carriage horse routes and business hours, all under certain terms and conditions. Is there anyone here for the Administration to testify on this bill? Can I see the hands of the individuals in the room who are testifying in favor of this bill 23 as it exists today without amendment? And those who are opposing the bill? Do we have a list of witnesses? Mr. 4 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Hirschorn is here from Health Department? Mr. Hirschorn, please. Good afternoon. Thank you for waiting. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.
Please proceed with your testimony. I would ask all conversations in this room be taken into the hallway now. Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.
Sir, just one precaution. You have to pull the microphone directly to your -- it's an old system, you have to speak directly into the microphone.
I've been a full-time blacksmith since 1977. Part of my training has involved study at the University of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Center. I continue to maintain contacts 5 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 there with the center's veterinary faculty and work on many of their research horses. My past experience with city horses include shoeing for the Wilmington and Newark, Delaware Police Departments. More appropriately, a good portion of my work over the years has been with pleasure and competition and carriage horses. With any proposed changes to a city ordinance, you would logically want to hear solid documentation presented by experts in the field. And you might expect someone who has cared for thousands of horses over many years to be a reputable source of this data. I am not this resource because most of the information I assimilate and use in interacting with horses is not documented. It amounts to a lot of unpublished experience: Feelings that allow me to assess what I think horses need to stay sound and healthy. Even if this information were documented, it would be of only limited value because individual horses can react very differently to their environment and environmental conditions themselves are so fraught with variables. I think that experienced feelings for 6 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 horses' needs and some common sense will outweigh the value of cold, hard facts. To accommodate a class of horses such as Philadelphia's carriage horses, I feel the guidelines should be used that will safely protect the range of needs of all the horses involved. They should also be practical to enforce and should not drive caring, responsible operators out of business. So without further ado, or documentation but with experience, I will give you my recommendations for these ordinance changes as both a horseman and a blacksmith.
Before you begin, do you have a copy of the pink bill that we're dealing with?
It would be easier when you're suggesting those changes that you use the Bill to refer to so we can follow with you. Do you have specific sections you want to talk about?
Yes. I do have the categories. Do you need numbers? Heat index, for example? 7 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Yes, that's fine. MR ODELL: Okay. Heat index: Heat exhaustion is the biggest concern here. To allow for variation in the way carriage horses react to temperature and humidity, I agree that it would be unwise for horses to leave the stable for work if the heat index is 94 or above. But because some operators use older, more heat susceptible horses, I would like to see the index lowered to 90. In regards to low temperatures, most of the danger horses have during the colder months is when they have worked and then left to stand in a cold wind. Since clipping would be difficult to regulate and wind protection during work is so variable in a city with tall buildings, I feel that providing blankets at 32 degrees or freezing mark or below with wind chill would be the most practical way to help horses stay comfortable. As far as hours worked, it would be difficult to properly correlate the number of working hours to the heat index or wind chill factor, so I would assess the number of working hours based on the maximum heat index or a low wind chill. To this end, I feel that six hours is a 8 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 realistic year-round figure for the total time a horse spends away from the stable.
Sir, what was the wind chill number again, your suggested wind chill number?
Inspections: From my experience, the best managed barns are the boarder facilities that can be scrutinized at just about any time of the day or night. To ensure that optimum standards are being maintained, I would have unannounced stable inspections by independent professionals at least two to three times a year. If it is deemed appropriate to this committee and to Council, I will personally volunteer my time to the City to help in this regard. (Applause) Ground temperatures: This is not addressed directly in the Bill. All city streets, regardless of color and composition, can produce high ground temperatures. Fortunately, horses' feet 9 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 have built-in radiators that are able to dissipate a lot of this heat because of the way their circulatory system is designed. But these radiators will not work efficiently on very hot surfaces for an indefinite period of time. In extreme cases, the results can be catastrophic. My first experience with this phenomena came years ago. One hot summer day, a number of 10 Lippizaner stallions based in Charleston, West 11 Virginia, were unloaded from their transport plane 12 and were left to stand on a airport Tarmac until 13 ground transportation arrived. There were 14 unexpected delays. Before the trailers came, many 15 of these stallions, in only minutes, went down from 16 the crippling ground temperatures. A number of them 17 were lost that day to laminitis, an extremely 18 painful condition that often leads to the breakdown 19 of the hoof wall, and ultimately to the death of the 20 horse. 21 Considering the potentially disastrous 22 consequences of laminitis to the horse, the 23 potential for injury to passengers and bystanders, 24 and the spectacle and traffic nightmare that would 25 ensue from a horse going down on a city street, I 10 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 feel some precautions are easily warranted. During the warm months, I feel horses should have shady resting areas with plenty of water available, and the earlier guidelines outlined for heat indices and working hours should be followed closely. Lastly, in regards to hard surfaces, working and standing on hard city streets exacts a price on a horse's bones and joints over time. From my experience, any advantages gained through the use of pads or non-steel shoes for reducing concussion is outweighed by a longer list of disadvantages. But I would strongly recommend that stable stalls, regardless of composition, be matted and/or heavily bedded to ease leg fatigue. Matting in resting areas would also be encouraged. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thank you very much for waiting and for you testimony. Are there any questions for Mr. Odell? Councilmember Rizzo.
As a blacksmith and a horseshoer, are you convinced that most of the operators use the appropriate shoeing techniques for 11 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 safety? I remember back in -- they used to use borium on shoes so the horses wouldn't slip. Should we address the way the horses are shod by the various operators, or do you feel confident that they're following the proper procedures for this type of activity?
Of the horses that I have seen shod in Philadelphia, and I really haven't done a close inspection, most of them look like they're adequately shod. I mean, I can always see room for improvements. Yes, they still do use borium and sometimes drilltech on horses' shoes to minimize slipping. And that's one of the -- fortunately, that's one of the good things about carriage horse shoes is that that gives them some elevation off of the streets so the ground temperatures aren't as effective in building up temperature. I honestly don't know if some of the operators are using some of the plastic shoes that are available even for draft horses. The ones I have seen shod are conventional steel with borium. And of the small sample size that I've seen, they seem to be adequately shod. 12 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 I'd love to visit the stables and see firsthand and get closer inspection and I'd be glad to file a report with you.
Fine. I'm just concerned that that subject's been addressed because there's nothing worse than having an animal as large as a horse not be able to get traction when it's necessary.
Right. That's something that has to be monitored from shoeing to shoeing. As long as they're adequately built up at the time the horses are shod, usually that will be sufficient for that shoeing interval.
You're welcome. Any other questions? Councilmember DiCicco.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Concerning the matting that you're suggesting, what material is that?
The best materials are made out of just pure rubber. There are some asphalt 13 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 analogs that are used from some of the horse transportation services that you can buy through building supply stores that are relatively cheap, but unfortunately, with driving horse shoes, they don't usually hold up as well. My recommendation would be rubber matting.
Do you know of any other municipalities where horse carriages are being used today where they provide for matting?
No. But I'm not that familiar with the carriage horse operations outside of the City of Philadelphia.
My concern is that if we were to require matting, it would obviously have to be laid down on the a public street. And I can imagine the legal questions that would come about as a result of the city providing rubber matting, or whatever kind of matting it is, onto the surface of the city street and the issues that that would create for us. So I just was trying to find out if there was someplace that we can use as an example or look to as an example.
I'll be glad to look into that for you. I don't know really how that would 14 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 affect -- see I'm not that familiar with the resting areas that the horses have right now, if they're just using parking spaces. The mats are only about three quarters of an inch thick, and it certainly wouldn't affect a car being driven over it.
I'm concerned about pedestrians that would cross over that. Who would be responsible for picking up the matting? Does it stay their permanently? I see John Campbell from L & I shaking his head.
Well, these sheets of matting are very, very heavy. It would be hard for one person to move by themselves.
So it would almost be a permanent fixture to the street?
I think I've already seen those mats, especially the pull-out area to 15 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 give the horse a little bit more traction. I've seen, I think, by Independence Mall some of those mats already in place.
I just wanted to point out that if the number of working hours is limited to six, then if that matting was provided in the stable areas, that would probably sufficient.
That's what I thought you were referring to, the stall.
I think we should use the standard. Do our police horses have that comfort? I think that they work maybe not as hard, but as long hours on the street. And if our city horses have that, I think that is reasonable.
Thank you very much. The Chair now calls Mr. Hirschorn from the Health Department. Please identify yourself for the record.
Certainly. Good afternoon Members of the Council. My name is Randall Hirschorn. I'm director of Environmental Health Services with the Health Department, and I 16 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 have the pleasure to be accompanied by Ms. Valerie Phillips who is the chairperson of Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee whose committee advises the Health Commissioner on animal matters.
In response to the proposed ordinance, the Health Department sees no 9 problems with the proposed changes, and in fact, was consulted on some of the changes. For example, the proposed requirement for waist management plan. I personally have been dealing with the residents in the Society Hill area where the carriages operate for a period of about nine years. Because of the continuous deposition of urine and feces from the horses on the streets where they have their homes, we tried working with the carriage companies and a satisfactory solution was not achieved. And as a final resort, two years ago I requested of the Department of Streets that they have a flusher truck brought in every morning, which they have been able to do for the past two years at the expense of flushing other residential streets, which to those residents is not fair, but because of the unusual amount of waste material which has strong odor in 17 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the summer, we felt we had no alternative. So the Department requested that those who are responsible for the deposition of urine and fecal matter on the streets be responsible for its removal. And we're asking that they submit to the Department a plan under this proposed ordinance to eliminate that waste in a timely fashion so as not to create a public health nuisance for the residents that have been dealing with this problem for at least a decade that I'm aware of.
So your testimony is as far as the provisions of this Bill is enforced today, the Health Department supports them and would enforce their implementation.
I'm Valerie Phillips. I'm Chairwoman of the Animal Advisory Committee.
So far the only thing that I would like to recommend, I agree with the farrier very much. We happen to have a farm where 18 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 we have horses, and it is mandatory for each horse to have a soft place so that they can put their feet rather than -- a mat would be an excellent suggestion. Pertaining to -- you want to hear about the heat, or can we come back after you hear some more testimony?
I think some of the things are very good. I think some could be improved upon, including -- one would be the temperature for the horses. I would like to see that lowered to 89 degrees when the horses are off the streets. I think that this is the only city besides San Antonio where the horses come in when it is 89. San Antonio like ours is over 90, and we're the only ones. I think it makes us somewhat of a dinosaur in having that provision. I think it should be below 90, and probably 89 would be a good maybe a compromise for the carriage horse trade as well. One of the other suggestions that I would make is that there should be no passenger in 19 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 front seat with the with the driver because I think that's somewhat of a detriment and a danger.
How do they provide water for the houses if they're out six to eight hours.
The water is provided on the street at the National Park Service property on Chestnut Street. There is a hydrant that does contains portable water. And as I understand it, they are allowed by the Park Service to fill buckets for the horses.
Is that it? Thank you very much. Thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Hendricks, please. Good afternoon. Identify yourself for record and proceed. ERIK HENDRICKS: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Erik Hendricks. I'm the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania SPCA. 20 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 As you probably know, the Pennsylvania SPCA is a nonprofit organization working to protect animals throughout the State of Pennsylvania, but we also in Philadelphia have a contract with the City to perform animal control services for the City. And among those services is the monitoring of the situation in the Independence Hall area with carriage horses as well as the hacking stables that are located in other parts of Philadelphia. Unfortunately, the focus all seems to be on the carriage horse trade, but the ordinance in Philadelphia pertains to all working horses throughout the City. And for that reason, I think we should address one of the major problems, and that is which temperature are we using to enforce the law. I suggest that the ordinance used as its guide the temperature taken at the Philadelphia Airport by the US Weather Service because that's an official temperature kept on record and can be used in court at a subsequent date if it should be necessary. That temperature is also the one used by all radio and television stations when giving the temperature at the time, so it's easily disseminated 21 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 throughout the City by those channels. So not only would the carriage horses in the historic section be aware what the temperature was, but so would all the hacking stables located in northwest and northeast.
A hacking stable is just a stable that rents horses by the hour for riding, not for the carriage pulling but for actual riding.
It would be an estimate. I would say approximately in the City. 15
These are not places 16 where people board their own horses but where people 17 rent? 18
Usually they're 19 combinations. Usually it's a stable that has 20 private horses that are not rented out, but they also have their own supply of horses that can be rented by the hour.
What is the temperature that the SPCA is suggesting to use?
Well, we are actually 22 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 suggesting the use of a temperature humidity index where 94 would be the maximum that a horse could work under. If the THI hits 95, then that horse would have to return to its stable. Now, and I also mentioned in my written testimony that if you would want to consider the straight temperature reading for simplicity sake, that it should be 89 as a maximum. At 90 degrees horses would then come off the street. The first testimony mentioned a wind chill factor, the other end of the spectrum. I don't think wind chill is something we should really use because unlike a THI which tends to vary slowly overtime -- THI is the temperature humidity index -- the wind child factor varies second by second. It's very difficult to really use as a legal gauge in any kind of prosecution. So if you're considering, and I wish you would, a low temperature at which a horse may be blanketed or must be blanketed then I think you can use a straight temperature reading for that parameter.
Regardless of wind chill? 23 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Now, you're not a meteorologist, but let me ask you your opinion.
I play a Councilman on television, too. The temperature at the airport is, from my experience, generally lower than the temperature in Center City.
I've been studying that over the years because of this issue, and there is not a constant difference one way or the other. Sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's lower. But the fact is if it's hot at the airport, it's going to be hot in Philadelphia. So it doesn't really matter if it's a degree or two different. The fact is, it's very hot. If it's very hot there, it's very hot in the City.
The issue of, for example, if we say 89 or 90 degrees Fahrenheit where the horse needs to come off the street, is it equally dangerous for the horse to be returned to 24 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the stable in that heat as opposed to being stopped, parked, and under a tree.
Ideally, there would be a place in the area where the horse could seek shade and actually would not have to be driven back a mile or two to the stable, because pulling a wagon is work in itself even though it's not loaded.
And you're not under shelter while your pulling it. So the ideal situation would be to have some kind of open-sided stable or barn, but I don't think you're going to be able to provide that downtown.
No, I don't think the Park Service will let us build a barn. But the question is would it make more sense to require the horse to not pull, to be parked, to be under shade, as oppose to dragging it back, having it drag the cart back to the stable that may be two miles away?
I think as an option that should be allowed. I don't know if you can say you must stand here for the next three hours. I 25 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 wouldn't say you mandate it, but I would say as a option to taking the horse back to the stable then that would be a viable option and I don't think that would hurt the horse at all.
My concern is that the requirement that is here that "A horse being worked when such conditions develop shall be immediately returned to the stable by the most direct route," to me, mandates them to continue to pull that load through city streets to their final place of destination back at the stable. From my perspective, if it hits 90 degrees, 89 degrees or whatever the number is, if they're prohibited from carrying fare, required to park in a shaded area and provided water, to me that seems more humane than requiring it to go back to the stable.
That's exactly right. I think the only reason they put that in the ordinance 20 originally was because they didn't really figure there would be any place for them to actually park for an extended period. However, what you're saying is a much better solution to the problem from the horse's standpoint. One other thing I would like to mention, COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the hours of work, I think the six-hour workday is a little short. I think a horse is capable of working longer than that. I suggest that you consider an eight-hour pulling day. And when I say a pulling day, I mean actually pulling a wagon that has, not just the driver, but the driver plus a paying customer. The law already calls for minute rest 9 periods every hour. So if you make a maximum 10 eight-hour pulling day, that will still mean the 11 horse can be out on the street for up to ten hours 12 in one day, but I would call ten hours on the street 13 as the maximum that a horse can be used each day. 14
Whether or not the 15 horse is pulling, ten hours maximum?
That's right. Ten hours maximum even though it was never hired all day long. You couldn't leave the house out there waiting to get eight hours of paying customers. You must remove the horse from the streets even though it didn't pay its way that day.
Getting back to the issue of whether or not to require the horse to return to stable, it would seem to me that if you follow your instruction or suggestion that we do a ten-hour 27 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 total day, eight-hour pulling, ten hours on the street, it would seem reasonable, maybe a reasonable solution to this whole issue that as opposed to requiring to return, that the operator is prohibited from taking fare, must park the horse in a shaded area, providing him or her with water until the temperature changes. For example, if the heat index or the temperature reaches 89 or 90 degrees at 5 o'clock, say. That's necessarily likely, but then by 7 or 8 o'clock it's beginning to cool off, the owner of the horse would not have to have taken it two miles or so back to where it's stabled. It just seems more humane for the horse.
You are absolutely right. And the only reason that it isn't done that way is that there isn't a place there now to allow them to really stand in the shade for hour after hour.
From my experience, from where I've seen the majority of these operations operating from is the area across the street from Independence Hall and along Sixth Street there, and there is a wealth shade trees and availability for 28 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 water at that location.
Water they can get no 4 problem. The shade moves depending on the time of the day and it's not perfect shade because it's only shaded from a slanted sun. In the summer you get pretty direct sunlight coming straight down and it's hard to get under a tree down there. You would almost have to provide a man-made structure. And I'm not sure if that could be built big enough for the number of carriages that are down there.
I don't have to cover the carriage, all I need to do is cover the horse.
Well, that would mean if you wanted to do that taking the horses out of their straps, and that's a considerable feat to do that and put them back in again.
Ideally, of course, it would be great if all the stables happened to be right downtown within a short haul, but they're not.
Councilmember Rizzo. 29 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Mr. Hendricks, let's talk about an 80-degree day, beautiful day. I'm more concerned and I understand that -- maybe I shouldn't be as concerned as I am. I'm talking about a routine day and there's a horse with an obvious, not injury, but condition, a harness sore that's obvious, it's raw. Who is going to be the oversight --
My point being, on a Wednesday evening there's a horse that has got an injury where it's obvious that it's bandaged or whatever, whose out there? Again, we want the police to do a lot of things.
If we aren't there, we're on call. We're not going to be standing there all the time, but the Pennsylvania SPCA agents will go down there.
And under the state authority that we have, because this is covered by state law, not by the city ordinance, under the 30 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 state law we can order the horse out of service if it has any kind of saddle sore or any kind sore that would be worsened by work. We can order that horse to go back to the stable.
Are there any state laws on the books now that would apply to why we're here today.
Actually, one of the things we're talking about is the hours of work of the horses. We're trying to make it so that the City is more lenient on work horses than the State. The state law has a 96 hour a week limitation. It's a little tougher on the horses than what we want to see. But in terms of lameness, which is what you're talking about, or some kind of sore on the animal, the state law covers that very well. So there is really no need for an ordinance in Philadelphia to go over that ground because the State has it covered.
Do you see anything in this legislation that's is a duplication.
Well, not a duplication, but I'm trying to get the City to lower the hours of labor. That's not a duplication, that's just a 31 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 tougher part of it. This ordinance does not cover the lameness so much, although in general there is -- I forget exactly how it's worded in existing ordinance, but it has to do with dangerous conditions. And I always took that as being condition of the roads like ice or something along that line. But the state code does cover the kind of physical injuries that you're concerned about.
So you're pretty much depending on the public to call the SPCA to report an animal that appears to be unfit for duty, and you're telling me that the SPCA is prepared to have a timely response to that type of a phone call.
Right. But we also -- because of the nature of this problem, we also make routine inspections. So it's a combination of both. But we can't have an agent sitting down there by Independence Hall all day long just checking every horse that goes by. But we do make regular inspections of the carriage horses especially during the warm weather and when also respond quickly to any called-in complaints.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 32 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
You're very welcome. Before Councilmember DiCicco asks a question, is it in the interest of the animal owner of the horse owner to work a lame or not to care for its sores? I mean, to me, it would seem to me if that's your method of making a living as if you were a driver of the truck, you're not going to let the truck break down, you're going to continue to maintain the truck because if you don't maintain the horse or the truck, you're not going to make a living. You're not a carriage operator so --
Unfortunately, the cheapest cost you have in this whole thing is the horse. It is almost -- they almost give them away at auction. It's very sad. Now, the one nice thing I've seen over the years is that the horses being used to pull the carriages here have gotten bigger and stronger in general over the years. When they first started the carriage trade here about 20 years or so ago, you saw a lot of aged, skinny horses being used, and that was a bad situation. They did realize that for their own public relations and good 33 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 business that the public would appreciate not being hauled by some poor, old horse. It made the public feel pretty bad. So most of the public feels pretty good if they get pulled around big strong horse. They don't feel like it's any kind of burden on the horse.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hendricks, following up on Councilman Rizzo's questioning, in your experience with the SPCA, have you uncovered any problems when you do inspections of the carriage horses that are in the stables? In general, did you find any abuse.
As Mr. Rizzo mentioned, often you'll see sores. And if you find sores, you have to order the horse out of service because it will only get worse if it's continued to be used. We also see conditions in stables that aren't necessarily the best for the horse. They 34 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 either have slippery floors or they're not kept clean. Sometimes they have too low timbers coming across where a horse could rear up and hit its head. These are the reasons that we want to have stable inspections put in as a regular part of the law. We make them on routine -- we make stable inspections routine, but the law is not specific in how often they must be inspected.
That could be once every couple of months routinely by us. That various depending on the time of year, and sometimes it varies depending on the individual involved. Some stable owners have a history of providing better care than others.
In your experience, what is the normal number of times that an inspection is made?
I would say every two or three months we will be in every stable.
So presently you're inspecting them four times a year.
More than any law, even 35 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 this law would call for.
Because it's being suggested that the inspections occur twice a year.
Technically, you're actually doing double than what is being requested.
We're doing that because we're the humane society, not because we're a city agency.
I appreciate that. I'm concerned because this is part of the correspondence that I've been receiving, and some of the suggestions are inconsistent. And one of the most consistent suggestion is that the stables be inspected twice a year, so I wanted to get on the record that you're presently inspecting them four times a year.
Exactly. I think they should be required to be inspected. That's a little different when it's required. If it's mandated by 36 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 law, it makes it somewhat different in my eyes. But the main thing --
It could still reduce the number of inspections down to two as opposed to four, even though it's required.
It could. Potentially it might, but I doubt that it would in our case. The main concept, the main reason I'm here today is to talk about the high temperature maximum for working. I think that's something where Philadelphia has something of an embarrassment in the current situation.
Two other questions. Do you also recommend the same criteria of ten-hour workday for the horse if the temperature is 32 degrees? I mean, we talked about the high number; what about the low number?
The low number, the horse will do fine at that temperature. Ice is the main problem. But I also recommended that they get blanketed if it hits --
The number of 37 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 hours, though?
Just trying to get my information correct as to whether it would be a difference in the hours as it would be in the temperature.
Do you have any knowledge of how the City of New York handles their carriage business?
I haven't read their regulations in some years, but I can tell you why they have such strict regulations: Because on the same day in August about 15 or maybe 17 years ago, two horses in the Central Park area dropped dead from the heat, and there was such an outcry by the citizens of New York that City Council of New York immediately rushed through very restrictive regulations, and much more restrictive than we have down here, very extensive.
How does their legislation compare to this legislation in terms of 38 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the temperature and the hours horses will be permitted to work?
I can't remember the details now, but it's lower. It's around 90, but I don't remember the exact number. And I don't remember the hours, but the hours are lower, too.
I would like to make a couple of announcements. After the committee on the licenses and inspections finishes with its hearing and the public meeting, assuming the Chair has a public meeting, we will then have a hearing by the Appropriations Committee. Councilmember Krajewski is here. It should be a brief hearing and then the Committee on Public Property will convene. And then after that Committee, we will go back to the Council Committee of the Whole. So if there are people here on bills that are on any of those committees, we ask you to be patient. We appreciate your willingness to cooperate with us. This will be a very busy day. We really intend to stay here until we get our business done. 39 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The other question: Do you know if New York provides a place of shelter during the day? And I see heads shaking no. I was out there a few months ago, and I didn't see that.
Mr. Hendricks, in reference to the cold, the cold whether, on a 35-degree day with 8 to 10 to 12 mile an hour wind gusts, I can't understand why, especially a standing house, the operator wouldn't throw a blanket over the horse. Now, to say 32 degrees, don't you think it should be an automatic if the horse is standing that he be blanketed or she be blanketed rather than -- when they're on their way, they're in pretty good shape. But when they're standing, I can't understand why we would want to have heat index for warmer weather when cold weather is certainly a factor also. They're certainly more accepting to 40 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 cold weather but --
I think you're not going to find as much of a problem in the cold weather here because, Number 1, you're going to have fewer horses out.
Right. And Number 2, many of the people are already doing this. It's just a matter of whether you want to mandate it or not. If it's mandated, then everybody would have to do it. And I would think that we don't get complaints in the winter time on carriage horses like we do in the summer.
The public isn't screaming saying, "That poor horse is not blanketed." We're not getting those complaints.
My last question is in reference to the state law or SPCA oversight, when it goes to hack horses or carriage horses, is there any criteria, any regulations on the way the horses are fed? 41 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 There are some horses that never see oats in their whole life or corn. What do you do to assure that these horses are being fed properly?
Well, what you have to do is -- I can't remember the name of the scale at the moment, but someone behind me might remember. There is a way of testing a horse, measuring a horse to see whether it is technically thin or not. Generally, you can eyeball a horse and tell pretty well whether it's a good flesh or not, but there's actually a scale that can be used. But the state law does go into that, and so if your horse is thin because you're not feeding it or you're not seeing a veterinarian to take care of whatever is causing it to be then, worms or something, then you are in violation of that state law. So once again, the state law covers that situation. The physical condition of the horse in Philadelphia need not be addressed as much because the state law covers that area.
No, it's not permitted. 42 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 It's not the process we follow, and I have a list of witnesses that I'm going through. This is not a debate, it's a public hearing. You don't have the privilege of asking that point of information, I'm sad to say.
Presently, under the present conditions in Philadelphia, if the temperature reaches 94 or above, what happens?
Above, technically you have to take the carriage back to the stable by the most direct route.
Generally it is, but sometimes we have to go down and remind them. See, one of the problems now is that there's no 20 temperature standard in the law, so that's a problem because people will hear the temperature on the radio, call us up and say, "It's 95 degrees out." We'll go down to the Independence Square area and then the KYW thermometer on the building will say something else. That's why I say it's very 43 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 important to have that temperature standard at the airport so that everybody's talking about the same thing. But if we get down there and we found that the carriage horses are on the street, the temperature gauge on the KYW building says something above 94, then we just say, "You know the rules, get out of here." We don't ticket them because they don't refuse to go. But unfortunately, sometimes and with some people it requires us to have to tell them. They're going to wait until they're told. Some of them don't wait. Last year we had a few days of these conditions, and under most circumstances I found out from our agents that the carriages were generally leaving willfully before we even got there.
Who has decided that 94, 90, whatever the temperature that we come to agree on, is the correct temperature? Is there a medical documentation that purports any of this?
No, not at all. This is strictly a humane number. It's up to whoever the powers are and whatever municipality to pick this 44 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 number. There is no science that can be applied. As a matter of fact, it would be difficult because every horse is a little different.
I was getting to that. For me as a human being when the temperature falls below 60, I'm cold. Some people are still sweating. How do you make that decision? And if we're just going to do an arbitrary -- whether it's 89 or 94, it really is an arbitrary number.
Exactly. It's a humane index. You know, common sense tells you that as the temperature goes up, mammals can moderate their temperature, internal temperature, by sweat and we can accommodate a certain temperature rise, but it becomes a burden on your system.
Not to interrupt you, but I've seen horses in cold weather that had blankets on them sweating. One would think that as humans we would know when to come in out of the cold, but that's not always the case either. What's cold for me may be not be cold for Councilman Kenney or you.
One of the differences we have here is that the horses have no voice in 45 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 this work situation, whereas a human can say, "Too hot for me to work, I'm going to go sit in the chair and have a lemonade." A horse doesn't have that luxury. So he's out there because he's made to be out there.
But there may be some horses that can't take it past 89. So again, I don't know -- none of us have the answer then.
There is no perfect number. All we're trying to do is find a number that will generally apply and that will not be so ridiculous that horses would never be out there. If you set the number, say, between 50 degrees and 60 degrees, that's the only time horses can work, we pretty much agree that that's nonsensical. But we know at some higher level it becomes uncomfortable for mammals to do the work that they might otherwise do.
I can agree on just about everything. I think the hours, I think we can find a place where it can accommodate everyone, including the carriage industry. I think the inspections are important. I'm just concerned about me or any of us making a decision on a 46 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 temperature that we really have no medical basis to make the decision on.
And we're back. For some people -- and I respect everyone's opinion, for some people that's too high. But is it? I don't know.
There isn't a perfect answer. And you know from all your other work you're never going to make everybody in Philadelphia happy with anything you do. So saying 89, 90, 91, you know, you're always going to get segment that will say that's still too high.
We have a segment of people who don't want them used for that purpose at all.
That's true. That's why it will always be too high. So you cannot please everybody. You should know that very well. This is strictly a humane index we're using, and it all depends on how you want to perceive the horses in Philadelphia. Whether they're beasts that unfortunately are being used by us and that's all 47 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 they're good for, or whether you think they have some rights to be here on this earth and they should be cared for properly. I think if you look at it that way, you will consider lowering the existing number.
You're welcome. Ms. Cheever and Mr. Hawkins, please. I need you to come up together. You can give separate testimony, I just want to fill the chairs up in the interest of time. Please identify yourself for the record.
Actually, it's Dr. Holly Cheever. I'm a practicing veterinarian. Should I continue?
I'm grateful that you're taking me ahead of my possible order. I have to be back, being mommy, by 5:30 in Albany to four children, so I'm grateful for your letting me go ahead. 48 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Let me just briefly give you my credentials so you know why I am being thrust upon you in this hearing. I am a practicing veterinarian. I graduated from Harvard University undergrad and Cornell's Veterinary College in 1980 with a class rank of No. 1. I have been a private practitioner including equine medicine for years. My 11 experience with equines goes all the way back to 12 childhood, and it does include working with draft 13 horses and carriage horses both training and driving 14 and parade work and primarily in field work plowing. 15 So I am familiar with the medicine of the heavy 16 equines, the big draft horses. 17 I have received many awards for work in 18 anti-cruelty animal abuse prosection from the ASPCA, from the Humane Society of the United States, from the New York State Troopers and from many other state and local animal advocacy groups. And finally I am Good Housekeeping Magazine's veterinary columnist writing a regular column three to five times a year under the name of DGH Vet. 49 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Specifically, though, my expertise in this area of urban carriage horse regulation, I really feel is second to no one's. At this point in the last decade I have advised two states, namely, Massachusetts and Florida, in providing statewide legislation for carriage horse regulations, and I have worked with over cities and municipalities 9 on providing protective regulation, including New 10 York City, and I can answer all those questions you 11 were asking our previous witness, New York City 12 Washington, Boston, Atlanta, New Orleans, Reno, 13 Kansas City, et cetera. 14 My position on urban carriage horses is 15 really that it, first of all, should never be seen as an animal rights issue as I think was being hinted earlier because it does fall very clearly within the realm of animal welfare, which we all agree we should be supporting. Unfortunately, there's a very fundamental incompatibility between equines used on the streets sharing space with motor vehicle-ized traffic, and the dangers and health hazards are fairly obvious, even to a non-veterinarian. I am glad to hear that Philadelphia's 50 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 horses have improved in quality, but I know from personal conversations with people who have witnessed some of the horses from perhaps the less well-run stables that some of the horses do remain old and somewhat under-conditioned. And one thing you need to remember is the source of these horses. These are not someone's price draft horses people do not put their price draft horses on urban city streets in carriage trades for the tourists. Many of them come from the New Holland sales. Their only prerequisite is that they already be broken to harness. That means that they've either come from Amish farm country or standard bread tracks or previous farm use in some capacity. Many times by the time they go to the New Holland sale, they're pretty well used up and they're not in the best conditions by the time they hit the streets. Therefore, all of your legislation have to be drafted to protect those individuals who are not in optimal condition, because many of them are not. In terms of what is specifically hazardous for the horses, Mr. Ordell did mention the problems with keeping them sound on city streets. They never evolved to handle the hard concussive 51 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 pavements and the constant pounding that a ten-hour work day would give them, even with the best of farrier care, which in my experience around the country is usually not the case. They have possibly adequate farrier care, but not always adequate. And draft horses are notoriously hard to keep well shod because of the shape of their hoof and their heavy weight and, again, the heavy, hard concussive street surfaces. There's the obvious danger to these horses in traffic. These animals evolved as herbivores.
They're prey, and what that means is that when there's something scary that happens, whether it's a car crashing into the carriage or some drunk heaving a beer bottle at their hiney, they bolt, they spook, and that has disastrous consequences which you've seen around the country. There was a very nasty death in Boston last year because of a car backing into a carriage, and the horse broke loose for two blocks, rammed himself into something that slit his chest open and bled slowly to death in three hours without the benefit of euthanasia, and no being on this planet should ever die like that. 52 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Pollution hazards, of course, are obvious. These animals at this point are out there ten hours a day. The more aged and dispirited ones have their nostrils really right down by the tail pipes, and they're sucking down pollution much more than anyone, except for the possibility of the homeless individuals who were testifying earlier. But no other resident of Philadelphia is breathing in that degree of traffic fumes. And I have in the materials that Mr. Hawkins will be giving you a report of a study done in New York City a few years ago indicating that their lung pathology was pretty horrendous simply because their exposure to the traffic fumes. The big thing, though, is heat stress. And for that reason, I will go right into the specific recommendation that I would hope would be included in the proposed regulation. One thing you need to understand is that horses have a much tougher time dissipating heat load that comes up with exercise than a human does. We have a very low mass to weight ratio. Horses have a high one. It's very hard for them with that big massive body to dissipate the heat that they accumulate in working 53 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 conditions with high ambient temperatures, and particularly with humidity. And I know this is going to be a lot of hashing out and backing and forthing as to what should be at final high-end temperature. In New York the one that was finally agreed upon was a temperature of 89 degrees, but a different reading of temperature humidity index than the one referred to here which took humidity into account. And I really pray that you do consider including humidity, the reason being that when you have a high humidity, the horse can no longer cool himself by evaporation from sweating. That's how you and I cool ourselves, that's how the horse cools himself or herself. And with high humidity in the air, there's no evaporation and that's when you get the real heavy danger from heat prostration, which New York has seen many times, as has Atlanta, as has Boston. So as I said, in New York it's 89 degrees Fahrenheit temperature including a humidity factor, which if you were to add degrees Fahrenheit with the relative humidity, if it comes to a higher value than 140, the horses are supposed to leave. Now, you're using a different index here which I'm very 54 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 comfortable with and that is 94 temperature humidity index, which does again factor in humidity. But I beg you as a horse lover and as a compassionate human as well as a veterinarian that humidity really does need to be factored in there. Otherwise, you do have a chance of some prostration deaths, which are never very pretty to see. I have to disagree, with all respect, with Mr. Hendricks about the fact that there is no 11 documentation as to what is safe or what is not safe. I won't burden you with it, but I have a file 13 on equine physiology, exercise physiology, this heavy and this fat on what is considered safe.
And you may be aware that when the horses were performing in Atlanta last summer or two summers ago, whenever it was, for the Olympic games, there was a big scandal for two years before where they tried to go through and document what would be safe for the competitor horses so they would not be endangering these multimillion dollar animals because of high ambient temperatures, high humidity, and a punishing course. Obviously, going across an eventing course in steeple chasing is more of an exercise demand than pulling a carriage, but it's 55 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 only for a few minutes as opposed to the six- or eight- or ten-hour day that the carriage horses are experiencing. And the other thing, which I realize adds a little more of a glitch and an irritation in something you have to wrestle out, but in New York they finally agreed to take the temperature, not by what they say on the US Weather Borough reports, but rather by thermometer held at the horses elbow level. And I know this may seem picky to you, but if you will just bear with me. Cornell's Horticulture Department several years ago did a study in Central Park, New York City to find out why their newly planted trees were all dying off. And they found out that it was heat stress. And heat stress is a factor because in New York City, for instance, when the US Weather Bureau says it's X degrees, they're taking that temperature from a thermometer 60 feet above the ground in Central Park. The problem is the horses aren't operating 60 feet above the ground in Central Park, they're down on the street. By the Horticulture Department's study, they came up with the fact that the pavement temperature could be 45 degrees higher. So when it 56 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 was 86 degrees according Weather Bureau as you turn on your radio to take a shower in the morning, it could be 131 where the horses are standing. And that's why heat prostration becomes so much of a increased danger when you're dealing with an urban environment. We're not talking plow horses, we're not talking plowing the earth on Georgia's red field or something; we're talking about reflective heat of off asphalt, and that's a very different matter. So I do hope you will include humidity. I do hope that you will settle on that final 94 as the maximum, the absolute humane maximum including humidity for keeping these animals off the street. One of you asked does New York have a shelter for these horses to go to. No, they don't. And the reason they send them back to the stables which is just as a pain in the hiney for them as it would be Philadelphia operators is that if you don't send them back, as the inspector turns the corner, the horse is back working again. You know, you brought up earlier how are you going to enforce all of this, who has the time and money and personnel to park someone by each carriage horse and make sure that they are on the 57 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 street and off the street when they should be. If they're sent back to the stable, you don't have to worry about it. They're out of danger zone. Now, it would be just lovely if Philadelphia could find a space to build a long cooling shed with wonderful ventilation, lots of fans, lots of those fine mistrals that they used for the three-day eventing horses, the multimillion dollar syndicated horses, but I'm just guessing here, you will not be able to do that in downtown Philadelphia. In short of that, you do need to get them into an environment where they can't be put right back on the street when the inspector has turned the corner. So again, in terms of the high-end temperature, please consider including humidity or you will have horse deaths, if you haven't already. And please consider taking the temperature somewhere which is relevant for the horses and not where the US Weather Bureau is taking it.
Again, if you want 20 pounds of documentation on exercise physiology, I can't even barely get through it, but I'll be glad to give it to you. As far as the low-end scale, we're 58 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 talking about whether, we think 32 degrees should include wind chill factor or not, we're talking about whether the present degrees is sufficiently 5 protective. No way. It's simply not. These are 6 animals who exercise, stand still; exercise, stand 7 still. Any of you who jog in the wintertime know 8 that that is a recipe for disaster, for leg cramps, 9 for draining, lowering your immune system's ability 10 to fight off disease. It's an enormous stress. You 11 would think that a humane operator would have the 12 common sense to throw a blanket on his or her horse, 13 draw your own conclusions, but most of them don't. 14 Many of them don't, and therefore, I think it is 15 important to mandate it. My own preference would be 16 to include the wind chill factor because, I remind 17 you, we are trying to devise legislation to protect 18 those who may not be in optimal condition. Not 19 every carriage horse in the City is in optimal 20 condition. And if you're thinking of a horse that maybe is 50 to a hundred pounds under weight, that degree of wind chill being factored in could make an enormous difference in whether it is receiving humane treatment or is merely experiencing something that is survivable but not humane. 59 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Also, I don't know about Philadelphia, but one of you was saying something about you don't think there's a lot carriage horse use in the wintertime. I don't know about Philadelphia, but certainly Kansas City, Atlanta, Boston, New York, they have very high seasonal use between Thanksgiving and New Year's. That's the big time when tourists come flooding into the cities in the winter months. It's a big seasonal time, and for many of the other urban North American northeastern cities that I've advised for, that is a problem time where there is a high carriage horse demand. So we do need to be very focused on that low-end temperature to protect them. In terms of the work hours, the number of work hours, again, I respectfully disagree with Hendrick's whom I've supported in just about everything else, but I would prefer to see six hours or the maximum eight because we're not just talking about the amount that the horse works, we're talking about in the summertime this animal cooking on the street or freezing in the wintertime on the streets, and that's an awful long prolonged environmental exposure to challenging extremes of climate if you 60 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 have a ten-hour day. And again, we're not necessarily talking about horses in the peak of condition. So I would respectfully suggest that you drop down to six or eight which is more in accord with the other humane laws drafted in cities across the country. I don't know of any cities offhand anymore that have had any regulation oversight that still permits ten hours, and I don't think it would look very good for Philadelphia to be way out on the end there. In terms of stable inspections, my feeling would be two times minimum annually, and I agree with Mr. Hendricks it should be mandated, not something that just SPCA does because it's an effective and concerned and compassionate force that's trying to make sure that the lives of these horses is as humane as possible. And what they need to be inspecting for, I would hope that there was some horse expert who would go with them. I know that in New York City, I was hired by the ASPCA because their cruelty investigators were small animal experts and really didn't know what to look for. You're looking for the presence of 61 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 constant access to water, not just being turned loose to drink out of a joint tub at the end of the stalls.
You're looking for constant access to traced mineralized salt, not just the white salt block, but the red salt block which supplies a lot of those electolytes lost with sweating. And of course, you're looking for the thick bedding because as we've been talking, both Mr. Odell and myself, these street are very, very tough and very unnatural for a horse to survive on, especially with the kind of length of day. The rubber matting in stall for a horse working six to eight hours a day to me would seem like a very reasonable way to try to protect and cushion these animals from this unnaturally hard concussive work that they do. And even though this is somewhat out of the realm of veterinary experience, apparently at this point it's permitted to have a passenger up on the driver's box. Well, this is common sense no-brainer. There couldn't be anything more dangerous. You are much more in danger up in that box than you are inside the main body. It's dangerous enough in there without seat belts and without any protection. I just would not think the 62 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 City would want to take on extra liability. It also sometimes impedes the driver's ability to control a horse when there's a panic moment. And I just think that you don't want to take on that extra risk of having a passenger up there where the chance of danger is much greater. I think that's pretty much -- oh, one thing I believe you were asking in terms of does it make sense to drive a lame horse. Of course it doesn't make sense, but as Mr. Hendricks is saying, the cheapest part of the operation is the horse. They're eminently replaceable. And what the carriage horse operators in New York and Boston would say when I would point out that their horse was three-legged lame, they'd say, "Yeah, well this horse don't make me no money if he's sitting in the stable," so their feeling is that they may be lame, but I can make money with him the streets. I'm not saying that all carriage drivers are like that, but there certainly has been at least one or two of those in every city that I've worked with. So if you have any questions, I'd be very happy to answer them at this time.
Thank you. 63 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Councilmember DiCicco.