Thank you for your testimony. Do you see any reason to regulate -- is there any difference the way we should be regulating the carriage industry as opposed to the hacking stables?
It's a very different life. I don't know enough about your regulations for the hacking industry to comment. But I can tell you that work under saddle is a different matter from work in a harness, especially when you have some of these very ancient stables that I know your carriage horses live in where they're tied stalls, standing straight stalls. Think about it for a minute. You're pulling a carriage, you're 180 degrees a head between the shafts, you can't move, you can't even turn around to scratch your hiney. Then you go home to the stall, you're lined 180 degrees, you can't even turn around there. And I think some of these older stables do not have the paddocks, do not give any chance for turnout which is essential for the physiologic well-being of any horse. 64 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Whereas with a saddle horse, that animal has much more opportunity to flex, to move, to bend. It's not as confining, it's not as restrictive and it's not as hard work.
Is there any recommendation -- I noticed in your written testimony appropriate winter weight blankets. Is there a material that you would recommend?
Sure, I can comment on that. Horse blankets, like in any other fashion, comes in a lot of different types. You can have your basic fly sheet which is a summer sheet, keeps bugs off. You can have your rain repellant sheet which keeps the rain off. What you're looking for here is something with a repellant shell like a nylon shell with some kind of a woven, either a flannel or a wool kind of inner lining, like a nice camping blanket that a human might use. And these permit the blanket and the horse to stay dry when the sleet is blowing on them because they have that repellant outer shell, but it also provides warmth. Now, if you have a horse that seems to be heated when he's just come in from his walk, his work, you put the blanket on him and if he seems to be twitchy 65 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 and sweaty, you can always roll half of it back and expose part of the forequarters but leave the hindquarters covered and adjust it is a needed. But it certainly should be there to protect the animals.
I'm sure you have horse people in Philadelphia, it's such a horsy area, that can give you 500 different types and brands that would be acceptable.
Thank you. Do you happen to know what the hours that the carriage horses work in New York.
Including the time to and from the stable or is that eight hours --
I think that's eight hours on their working shift. The protective law that was passed in '89 was appealed in '94 because of New York's intricacies of their political system despite unanimous opposition to weakening the protective laws, so at this point I'm not exactly sure. But 66 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the last I knew, it was an eight-hour work shift.
Doctor, in the area of passengers, I've noticed that many of our carriage operators have sometimes two employees both capable of handling the horse. Don't you think we should be careful in not -- we have to be very clear that that second passenger shouldn't be a person that's going for the ride, but we should not limit people that might be employees of the carriage operator?
Yes. My understanding, and perhaps I was wrong, was that the second person on the driver's box was actually a tourist, a passenger. They should never be up there. But if you have an apprentice, a trainee, or an assistant, then, of course, I have no problem with that.
We have to very careful that we don't rule out a second person.
In fact, in many cases, a second person is a good idea, for instance, in the case of watering. If you have to let go of your 67 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 horse's head to go and turn on that hydrant, that gives a split second where the horse could bolt with disastrous consequences, and that's happened a lot.
I just wanted to make sure we're not eliminating something that could be better for the operator.
Thank you for the opportunity. Mr. Hawkins will present you with my material. (Applause.)
Good afternoon. I'm William Hawkins. I live in Center City on Washington Square. I'm not an expert on horses, but I've been around horses all my life, both in Europe and over here. I've been in Center City for 23 years. Where I live on Washington Square, I get to 24 see an awful lot of the carriage horse industry. 25 And our hope is that perhaps we can make some 68 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 headway with changes. The current ordinance that is before you we feel is unacceptable because it doesn't address the humane issues, many of which you've heard this afternoon. The 92 degrees that is recommended is just insufficient, and you've heard that through testimony so far. I would like to say that we have no 10 financial interest in what's happening here. Our motivation is one purely of humane treatment of the horses. Philadelphia's always been a city of firsts, but unfortunately we've got an awful long way to go when it comes to the carriage horse industry. We have one of the highest temperature thresholds in the country. It used to be that we were one of the top three, now I think Kansas City has cleaned up its act and now it's just San Antonio and Philadelphia. And the heat and humidity combined create a very, very -- pressure and stress on the carriage horses, as you've heard. The asphalt temperature can be as high as 120, 130 if it's 94 degrees. So we feel there are very, very strong reasons why the temperature should be 69 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 lowered. We also have the highest number of hours work. I believe New York is eight. If not, then New York and Philadelphia will probably be the only cities with that ten-hour threshold. Most of the cities that I've looked at ordinances from are between six and eight, the average being about eight. So we are clearly way ahead in both the temperature and the hours worked. As far as the number of passengers, Dr. Cheever did mention very clearly that sometimes there are tourist who do ride as passengers, and we've seen that many times. I have myself witnessed the driver of a carriage handing the reigns to a little child sitting next to him or her while she turns around and takes a photograph of the people in the carriage behind. I've seen that on Walnut Street between on Fifth and Sixth on more than one occasion because that's the nice area. That's an accident waiting to happen. The stable visits, we currently have, I think, one visit a year is in the current ordinance, not in the recommended changes, but in the current ordinance or regulations. One visit won't do it. 70 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 You've heard that a mandatory twice a year would be much more acceptable. The SPCA who will go in unannounced at different times, that's fine, but there has to be that mandated number. Otherwise, there really is no way to fix on a benchmark. And most cities do have twice a year. Some do it three times a year and four times a year. So once again we're clearly way at the other end of the spectrum. A year ago, I had a chance to visit the stables in Philadelphia, and I would like to make it very clear that one of the stables that I visited was a very well kept, very well maintained, the horses looked in excellent condition, the stalls were large and everything seemed to be very much in order. Two other stables I went to, it was like going back to the Charles Dickens era. The places are very old, very dark, they didn't seem to have the ventilation that the other place certainly had, they certainly did not have a paddock where the horses got exercised. That's a very critical issue here. You've got horses that are very, very sensitive creatures. They work, they go back to stall, a tiny stall, and that's it. They're constantly tied up or they can't move.
At least 71 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 with one of these stables, there is a paddock area where they can exercise, and I think it's very important for the humane treatment of the animals. If we're very serious about the tourism industry as we are, as every one in this room is, then we've got to do something about the overall carriage horse industry. We cannot have the tourism suffer simply because we don't have the right regulations in place. The accident that happened in Boston, the accidents which have happened in Kansas City, New Orleans, in New York, can happen here. We really are on the threshold of an accident waiting to happen. We've been very fortunate so far. The only problem we had last year, major problem, was a carriage that was rear-ended on Sixth Street. Well, luckily no passengers were in there, no tourists were in there. I can imagine what would have happened had they been. A lot more press coverage would have been given of that. We don't want that to happen. If we implement these changes, these simple changes, the lower temperatures, the fewer work hours, the stable requirements, we are going to have a much better industry and an industry that we 72 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 can be proud of. Although many of us would like to see it not here, we know that it is part of what we are working with in Philadelphia. So our request is you implement the changes, make the humane changes as requested, and thank you for you time.
Thank you very much for your testimony. Are there any questions for this witness? Thank you very much. (Applause.)
Mr. Grimes and Mr. Penn please. Is Mr. Penn here? In the interest of balance of the record, we'd like to have the representatives from the carriage industry put something on the record.
Mr. Chairman, would you like -- my client is a carriage company owner. Would you like him now? COUNCILMEN KENNEY: Whoever is testifying. I would appreciate before you begin your testimony if you would confine -- I'm going to try to boil this down to what it is you can live with and what the other side can live with. Because all 73 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the other issues of humane treatment of animals and all are somewhat subjective according to what side of the fence you're on. We have a bill before us. It makes certain suggestions. We've heard suggestions on how it can be changed from another side to improve it. You'd like to you make similar suggestions. Hopefully, we can come to some resolution of this issue. Please identify yourself for the record.
Thank you Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. My name is Michael Slocum. I am the president and owner of two carriage companies in the Philadelphia, 76 Carriage and Ben Franklin Carriage Company. The first issue that I would like to address on this bill is the restriction and limitation of hours under which carriages can operate on the city streets, that is from 7 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. I have no 21 great need for carriages to be on the street between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m.. I feel that we can certainly deal with that and live with that in this regulation. However, I do want to say that there are many contracted jobs and times where we are 74 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 asked to provide service for large groups and tours which stay in the Society Hill and Olde City area. I ask that this be able to be performed under a permit or a special issuance of some type of permit, perhaps by the Department of Streets. The second part of that, the working between 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. I think is very detrimental to the carriage industry. It is certainly a prime time for carriage visitors, tourist and residents alike, to enjoy the service and to be out and take advantage of everything this city has to offer. This would certainly have detrimental effects on this carriage industry.
I don't know where we'll go with this, but I can tell you it has a detrimental effect on traffic. It's just horrendous. The horse issues aside, temperature issues, I mean to get -- Walnut Street westbound on rush hour or Chestnut Street eastbound on rush hour is unbelievable when it comes to a horse -- I mean, what I fear sometimes, and again, I'll let you continue with your testimony, and on any other street, what you have basically are people rushing to get home who are aggravated from being behind 75 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 this thing and then try to do some cockamamy maneuver to get themselves out of the way. I mean, people don't stop at stop signs anymore let alone worry about what speed they go around a horse-drawn carriage. But I mean, I want you to understand from the industry standpoint, from my standpoint, that particular time of the day even more so than rush hour because people are stressed to get home is a very dangerous time of the day. To me it seems that way anyway.
I totally understand those concerns. In fact, what we would propose I think is a viable solution. Keep the carriages on a certain route or certain streets within that area during those hours. These streets and routes would certainly be known to the public, therefore, could certainly be avoided by the public if they choose to do so, not causing greater congestion among other streets and perhaps working with the Streets Department or Council to provide the service on streets that are less congested.
That's fine. I understand. 76 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 There was an issue eliminating carriages from the use of Third Street on the routes. Again, I would like to oppose. Society Hill is a very important link to the City, the tourism industry and the Independence National Park area, and Third Street has many private residences, attractions, and sites that should be included and showcased to the visitors. I believe that this stems from the urine and possible manure situation, the odor expressed by the residents of Society Hill. And I feel that we can create some type of management program working with the Department of Streets, with the water trucks which currently are supposed to flush down the streets. I think that if this were done on a more frequent basis and if it were done more efficiently, not like I have observed going or 30 18 miles an hour where they barely wet the street, but 19 actually flushing the street, I think it would be 20 more effective and eliminate and reduce those odors. I think that may be a viable option that would work and address those issues.
Yes, I do. I believe that 77 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 we heard testimony here today that the numbers are basically arbitrary. The industry in the city started back in 1976, and until 1986 was unregulated as far as heat index or heat humidity or temperature was concerned. In those earlier years, there were no animals that suffered any heat distress, heat stroke, or any heat-related illnesses. In 1986 Council enacted a maximum temperature law stating that 94 degrees the horses be removed from the street. Since that time, no horses have ever suffered any ill effects or distresses over the heat or temperature. I feel that 92 degrees is just the lowering of this number with no scientific documentation or evidence. We did hear some testimony today about the fact that three-day event horses, there was a study done, but we're talking about carriage horses that are oversized pulling wagons which are essentially toys to them at a walk on a street. And we have no documentation or evidence to support the fact that it should be any lower than 94 degrees. I am prepared to answer any questions if you have any specific concerns. 78 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 One thing I would like to address, I know it was brought up today about the low-end temperature of the carriages. I would just like to say as an operator I grew up in this business and my father started this business and I essentially been in it ever since. I must say there is no one in this city, I feel, that cares more for these animals than myself or who could probably offer expert testimony on this industry. I have also traveled around the country. I've been involved with CONA, which is the Carriage Operators of North America Association. I was involved in the founding of that. I've also worked with legislation among other cities and operators across the country to try to regulate carriage industries. Unfortunately, in a lot of cities regulation has gone too far unnecessarily so basically because there are some people who feel that this type of business or industry should not exist. I feel that if we look at the facts and the evidence provided before us and that is documented out there in this country, there is no need to provide more than what we have been doing here in the City of Philadelphia. 79 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Thank you very much for your testimony. Do any other gentlemen at the table have anything to offer? Please identify yourself for record.
Thank you, my name is Barry Penn. I represent three of the carriage companies, Society Hill Carriage Company, Outback Farms, and Philadelphia Carriage Company. These carriage companies go back as early as 1975 and have been operating since that date. I concur with what Mr. Slocum has testified to about the temperature problem, which as all the operators will tell you, since that restriction or that temperature gauge has been effect, there has been no problems. But that's really a question for the operators to tell you about, and you've heard there really have been no problems with that arbitrary figure. I see no reason why it should be changed. My clients' concern really focus in on the requirement that notice must be given five days before an event in order to change a particular route. The problem with that particular regulation 80 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 is that sometimes they get a call or requirement that day and it would be very difficult to get the necessary permit or permission in order to change the route. They would prefer to have some type of phone number, for example, that they could call in, request a change in the route, in order to make the last-minute reservations. That's basically what our position is.
Your position is also in agreement with Mr. Slocum's testimony on the other factors involving the bill?
Thank you. The suggestion, Mr. Penn, about the phone number, that goes to the issue Mr. Slocum raised earlier about sometimes there are special events?
Because I was going to ask the question how many days notice do you normally have for those?
Sometimes it could be two days, sometimes it could be 12 hours. And with all 81 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 the tourists coming in, there are last-minute calls.
So you would need sort of like a hotline number to call to say that, We need to pick up a passenger at Society Hill Sheraton and they would like to go through whatever part of the community which is not the normal route, right?
Under the present legislation, the requirement is that horses are required to have a 15-minute rest period for every 45 minutes that they work?
Is there a way averaging out the amount of time that the horses -- the given the ten hours that they're allowed on the street today, the interpretation says ten hours of work. I think we're going to amend that a little bit to accommodate some of the other concerns. But of the ten hours, what is the average time that a horse actually works excluding the 15 minutes? If someone rents a carriage and they do a half hour drive through Society Hill, typically the carriage comes back and waits in line at the end of the line, 82 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 so theoretically there's a 15-minute rest period and maybe sometimes even longer depending on when the next available renter comes. Is there any way to figure out how many hours in the day that the horse is actually pulling people around in that ten hours? Is there an average on that?
My estimate would be an average four or five hours of actual pulling time over the course of an eight-hour shift downtown, and then you would add on the travel time to and from the barn which probably takes an additional 13 minutes. 14
So eight hours 15 would not be impacting on your business, given the 16 time to and from the stable. 17
The length of the day would 18 be. If it were worded an eight-hour working day 19 actual pulling, no, that would have no effect on us 20 at all.
Mr. Slocum, how many stables do you operate in the City of Philadelphia? 83 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Is there an attendant 8 on duty all the time, is there someone there? 9
Are you regulated in 14 any way? Are you required to have smoke detectors, 15 sprinkler system, any type of an alarm system in the 16 event of a fire? 17
In the event of a 20 fire, that attendant would be required to turn out 21 all of those horses? How would you deal with that, 22 a situation like that? 23
Our facility is set up very 24 well. We have probably four different access and 25 egress routes that we could evacuate horses, two of 84 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 which lead to 150 by 150 turnout yard which is totally fenced in.
There's never ever, Christmas, New Year's Eve, a time when that stable is left unattended and that in the event of a fire it would be undetected until it got to the point where it was out control possibly?
There are times. There are periods of a half hour, hour, or several hours where there may be no one in the building. That could happen on a Tuesday in June, we'll say.
There's no type of early warning system, smoke detectors that would alert the fire department?
We have smoke detectors, fire alarms, and surveillance security cameras.
Just one final question. Have either of you gentlemen had any -- has there ever been any instances where passengers 85 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 have been injured related to sitting up at the top deck or whatever that piece is called where the driver is?
What impact does that 10 have on the business. To me it just doesn't seem 11 logical to have a young kid or anyone else sitting 12 up that high in the -- I mean, you don't have people 13 sitting in the front seat generally of a taxicab. 14 It seems to be a distraction. It seems to be a 15 potential for injury. To me, it doesn't seem 16 logical to have a person without restraint at that 17 height next to the driver who has to be both guide, 18 talk to the people there, watch out for the traffic. 19 It just seems like it would have been a lot. 20
If I may say, it is our policy, our company policy, and it has been for many years that the public, paying customers, are not to ride on the driver's seat, the drivers booth, and that is basically for safety reasons.
It seems sensible. 86 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
I've seen people up there. So if we made it so the public is prohibited, does that impact your business in any way?
From an insurance company standpoint, they're biggest regulators of this industry from that end. My business standpoint, that would not impact my business because that is company policy.
Mr. Chairman, I want to point out something in the law which may be beneficial when you talk about the temperature issue. Under the city code as it is right now, we've all been talking about the 94 degrees, but the law gives an "or" right after the 94 degrees and also provides that horses can be required to be pulled from the streets during other dangerous conditions which are a threat to the safety of the horse. So that would seem to me -- and I understand that the practical effect of that is if there were other dangerous conditions, possibly a slightly lower temperature where there is incredible humidity 87 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 or something like that, but there is some leeway here. So I would just point that out because we've been dealing with absolutes about temperature, and I don't know that the law right now gives absolutes.
Mr. Chairman, the only other thing I would say is we have written copies of the testimony that Mr. Slocum would provide that for distribution. Also attached is a letter from the veterinarian for his company which basically just attests to the fact that in the years he's been 13 doing work with 76 Carriage, there have been on 14 heat-related problems with the horses in that 15 company. 16
That will be submitted 17 for the record. Thank you. Thank you very much for 18 your testimony. 19
I have to thank you for the opportunity to testify. I'm a long-time resident of Society Hill.
My name is Irwin Edward 88 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 Robinson. I live at Six Blackwell Place. Blackwell Place is a courtyard between Second and Third between Lumbar and Pine. Our particular area is heavily impacted by the carriage horses. They wake us up in the morning on a Saturday or a Sunday morning. When we have the opportunity to open windows, we regret that we've done so because the smell of urine is absolutely horrendous. And I talk specifically about the block of Stamper Street running from Second to Third. I note that in the ordinance there is a rerouting of the way that the carriages can go. And if I read the ordinance correctly, it makes Stamper Street a no-no. Am I correct?
It would seem that from the route that's here, that it would do that.
Now, we achieved that goal some years ago when one of your predecessors, the Honorable James Tayune was a member of Council by simply addressing the issue to him, he went to the carriage drivers, and he got them to agree not to go up or down Stamper Street.
As irony would have it, he is currently representing the carriage industry 89 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 and wants us to take this out of the Bill, among other things.
Doesn't make him a bad person. It just shows you how things change over the years.
I was not aware of that. All I can tell you is Stamper Street was a no-no under his aegis, and we welcomed that change. The other area of particular interest to me in a certain selfish sense is that I am a lover of horses. I was seniorly involved in the creation of the new Bolton Center for Veterinary Medicine of Equine and Large Animals as a part of the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine with Dr. Jock Jenny who was the moving force for the creation of that institution. It is in a sense probably the greatest institution of its kind anywhere in the world. It brings thoroughbred horses that would otherwise be put down, not to race again, but to stand in stud. Any horse, I don't care whether it's a broken down beat-up horse or it's a magnificent thoroughbred, a horse is a horse, to borrow a line. 90 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
And I think the humane treatment of these animals is a must. And prior to this hearing, I handed up to the chairman some materials which I would like incorporated into the record.
Which make references in a biblical sense to what is required of us as God-fearing people who have a humankind interest in animals, and to do otherwise is not only wrong, but it's sacrilegious. Thank you for the opportunity.
Thank you very much for staying here to testify. We appreciate it. Candice Schaeffer, Debbie Kramer? Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.
I'm Candice Schaeffer. I'm from out Westchester and I come to you as an equine lover. I am a horse owner of two, one a thoroughbred and another a Hanoverian who is very heavyset and carries around my 190-pound husband. So I'm very aware of the differences 91 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 between horses, depending upon their build and breed and the type of work that they're doing. I'd like to say that I support Dr. Cheever and the recommendations that she made. I have some papers, as I'm a member of CARE, which is an organization that's within Philadelphia and Westchester. It is compassion for animals and respect for the environment and the relationship between the two. I'd like to say that when we think of carriage horses, we think of Black Beauty and the days of old, which kind of goes with Philadelphia's theme of history and the historic edge of having a carriage horses around. And I ask you to please update our laws so that we can be modern in that way and not have horses suffering under antiquated laws that no longer -- that don't look out for their well-being. The recommendations that I give before you are not those for turning these animals into pampered pets. They are recommendations to protect these animals to make their lives bearable. As we've heard, they are not really fit, young, healthy horses that are being used on the 92 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 streets in most cases, but they have special needs, and most of them I would imagine are going to go to the slaughter houses when they break down and no 5 longer work. Therefore, I suggest that their conditions be made as tolerant and as considerate and conscious as possible so they can perform their duties as long as possible which is in the best benefit of the carriage owners and the horses and the tourist industry of the city. Coming in on the weekends with my children and with friends, we often see the carriage horses, and it's always nice to see the ones that are well cared for and healthy. And there's nothing more depressing than to see one that has a sad look in his eyes with his head held low and looking like they're not cared for properly. And imagine the life that they're leading that they have no escape from as we've heard, without being able to turn around and scratch themselves or to run free in a paddock. Although, it's wonderful to hear that the 76 Carriage horses do have a paddock for turnout. I commend them, and I've heard things about their carriage company and I hope that others will follow suit and treat their horses more humanely. 93 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 What we're asking for is to reduce the working hours to a maximum of six to eight hours per day, to provide horse blankets when temperatures fall to 32 degrees Fahrenheit, which would include the humidity levels. It is much easier to see that horses are suffering in the heat. When it is cold, it's harder to tell. They do shiver but sometimes. People aren't that aware and aren't looking that closely. You can feel their ears, and if their ears are chilled, you know that they really are under distress. Sometimes it goes further than that before people take notice. Also to prohibit passengers from sitting next to the driver for the reasons earlier discussed, to require physical exams of stables twice a year, and to please improve and enforce the current ordinance and regulations including seeing that physical exams of the horses are made by qualified veterinarians once a year, using only approved carriage routes and having police impose fines for violations of the regulation. I know that some people are treating their horses well, but I think it does need to be assured.
And I ask you all to please, please 94 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 take -- last year I believe from what I've heard, it was not here, that one of the reasons why it was not progress made in this area was that there was not a consensus made amongst those people who came to present their opinions. And what we're asking for is really trying to come to a consensus. I can't say to you that the things I'm recommending are things that I would like. I would like to see it go further than that, personally, but these are things that we can agree on, and I think that's so important that we are able to come to a consensus and agree on a baseline so that we don't go on and on and on and conditions stay the same as they are because we can't agree. So we're willing to say, okay, let's do this, we can do this if the other side can compromise and come to this agreement, too, so that we can make progress before it gets too hot and save these horse from, you know, more and more days of really suffering on the streets out there. I would never dream of -- my horses are in during the day when it's hot in their stalls and they go out at night when its cool in the summertime. And we've reversed it, in the wintertime they're out in the day when it's warm and 95 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 they're in when it's cold at night. These horses don't have that luxury. They don't have a lot of luxury, but please let's give them this.
Thank you for you testimony. Do you have anything else to add, ma'am? Please identify yourself.
I'm Debbie Kramer. I don't have much to add. I'm agreement in agreement and support of Candice and William Hawkins, and Dr. Cheever. And I'm also a long-time resident of Philadelphia, now outside of Philadelphia. I've had horses all my life. I still do, and my horse was just accepted to the Reyer Home for Aged Equines right outside of Philadelphia, which was started in Philadelphia by Ann Reyer back at the turn of the century. Originally, I don't know if you know this, but it was for -- she took pity on the work horses and she started a home for them, really. And also my horse is one of very few horses in the whole country out of the thousands and thousands of horses in this country, most of them 96 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 will end up getting stuffed into cattle cars, shipped thousands of miles across the country, and the ones who survive will go through a horrendous slaughter and then most of them will be sold for human food, either to Europeans or Japanese people. The ones that don't get made into dog food, but most are human food. I would venture to guess that virtually all of the carriage horses are going to end up this way, and therefore, all the more reason if they have to work their whole lives before they go to that, to make the conditions as humane as possible. Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony. Andy Mao, Mr. Mao? He's not here, then that will conclude the list of witnesses. Yes, Mr. Hawkins?
This will have to be the last witness on this issue for today because there's 97 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 only hours in a day. Thank you for waiting. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.
Leslie M. Wood. And 6 I'll try to make this short and sweet. Just to give 7 you my credentials, I'm currently a faculty member 8 with an adult education program in Chester County 9 where I do teach equine massage therapy, equine 10 anatomy and equine science programs. I'm also a 11 graduate of the American Humane Association Horse 12 Abuse Investigator School, so I'm sort of in a 13 position, based on a lot of my training I'm working 14 with various different skill levels in terms of 15 horsemanship training and so forth, but I have a few 16 things that I'd like to add, and I'm definitely a 17 proponent of Dr. Cheever's recommendations. 18 One of the things I might I add, I am a 19 graduate of an urban -- of Temple University and had 20 occasion to see carriage horses in and around 21 Philadelphia quite a bit. The carriage horses I 22 observed seem to have routes which included heavy 23 traffic areas in Center City including parts of 24 Market Street near the Bourse Building. Now this was years ago. I believe this has changed a little 98 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 bit since then. However, recently traveling into the City on a typical Saturday afternoon around mid-afternoon, I witnessed a lot of carriage horses in around the South Street area and the Olde City area below Market, south of Market, between Front and Second Street, west of Front Street, east of Sixth Street, Sixth and Market Street, Fifth and Filbert, Filbert and Sansom and in and around Independence Hall on Chestnut Street. What I'm concerned with is that all of these horses seem to be moving in tremendous heavy traffic. And I personally would like to see a reduction of the use carriage horses in these kind of conditions, in terms of rush hour traffic or maybe selecting alternate route or rerouting these horses. Another observation I would have would be in terms of the actual care that the horses seem to be receiving. It does not seem to be uniform. Each carriage company seems to have a particular place where they rest their horses. However, sometimes the horses are lined up under shady trees, whereas other horses seem to be waiting in areas that are fully exposed to the hot sun without shade. My main concerned here is that a horse that is 99 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 worked as hard as a carriage horse, especially if they're work for ten hours, is that on a typically hot day, say, 94 degrees, if they're not given adequate water that they can very quickly become dehydrated which can lead to more serious complications and so forth which Dr. Cheever has reviewed with you previously. Another thing I observed is that a lot of the horses were still fully hitched to their rigs. I did observed water buckets, but I didn't actually observe that horses were being offered water. However, I did see water buckets, but none of the horses were being offered water. Another recommendation I would have which would go along with the horse care and safety aspect is the fact that when these horses are resting and standing, even whether it be under the shady trees, they are standing on hard asphalt which is very, very hard, you know, it's difficult for their feet and as well as their suspensory ligaments and their legs. It might be a good thing to provide some kind of a rubber matting which could be rolled out in which the horse could stand on. These rubber mats which were suggested previously by the farrier 100 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 are something that you can purchase. They are relatively inexpensive and they can be rolled out or rolled up, depending, but they would be a good investment. Other observations, this would go along with the recommendation for physical exams of stables. I would like to see that be at least twice a year. However, I would also add that I'm concerned, having sort of observed some of the horses throughout the City, the carriage horses, they actually look, some of them, to be far too light.
In other words, they're too small to be carrying the load they're expected to be pulling. This is a concern to me. I'm wondering if there's currently any kind of a code or an enforcement that would specify that the carriage operators need to be working with the veterinarian in order to make the selection of horses that are appropriate to be carriage horses, okay? In my business and what I do as a massage therapist, I deal with horses that are stressed. A lot of them happen to be geriatric, they're older horses, they're over ten years of age. I know for a fact from what I've heard in speaking 101 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239 to other people that a lot of these horses that are used in carriage horse industries are not in the best of shape to begin with, and this is a concern to me. So I would like to see selection of horse working alongside a veterinarian, whether it be somebody that's hired by the City or somebody from the Pennsylvania SPCA working directly with these operators to select these horses. Time factors, hours allowed operation and horse care and safety, I would like to see improved carriage driver education. I understand that it is left to the individual carriage operation to elect whether or not to train its driver. I would assume that there would be some rudimentary training of the driver. However, I think that this would need to be improved upon to include basic first aid, to understand, you know, whether or not a horse is dehydrated, things that Dr. Cheever specified in terms of dehydration and so forth and heat prostration. The changes are necessary to ensure high standards of safety. If a carriage operator is taking pride in its horse's experience, this reflects well on the City. That's all I have to say. 102 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980239
Thank you very much for your testimony. That will conclude the witness list for the Bill. So the individuals in the room interested in this legislation are aware, what my intention is avenue I hear Bill No. 980388 is to recess this hearing until 6 o'clock this evening. During the period of time, Councilmember DeCicco who is a primary sponsor of the Bill will be working with my staff to craft amendments as a result of today's testimony. We hope, and the reason that we hope to get this out of Committee sometime today is, again, the issue of the summer coming upon us and we'd like to have something in place prior to the height of July 4th and summer season. So there won't be any decision until 6 o'clock and maybe later. I also want to advise anybody who is interested in this particular bill that after this Committee hearing, we have an Appropriations Committee hearing, we have a Public Property Committee hearing. I believe in the Public Property Committee there are at least 10 or more bills. We will then come back at some point in time and do the Committee of the Whole. We'll be here probably 103 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980388 until or o'clock at tonight. So I'm not sure exactly whether or not o'clock is the time. In 4 order for me to continue the quorum and do this 5 properly, I need to recess this hearing to a time 6 certain. We may have to recess it again to another time certain, but for all intents and purposes for today. We expect that something coming out of this Committee today on this issue. So that will conclude the hearing on this particular bill. We will now move to Bill No. 980388, which is an ordinance amending Section 9-205 of the Philadelphia code, relating to sidewalk sales, by adding a new provision prohibiting sidewalk sales on Verree Road from Oxford Avenue to Bloomfield Road and Rhawn Street from Pine Road to Algon Avenue. Please identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon members of the L & I Committee. I am John P. Campbell, Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections, and I'm here to testify on the provisions of Bill No. 23 980388, which if enacted, if adopted, would prohibit vending and sidewalk sales on Rhawn Street and Verree Road. The Department has no objection to the 104 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980388 enactment of this bill and will enforce its provisions if Council so ordains. Just by way of information, Rhawn Street and Verree Road are two heavily traveled and used arterial streets in Northeast Philadelphia. Rhawn Street is along Cottman Avenue, Grand Avenue is one of the main east/west arterial streets running from roughly Pine Road to County Line to State Road, that ending at the prison. Verree Road, also a four-lane highway, again, from Oxford Avenue all the way up. And again, during traffic hours, it is really a mess and banning vending in this area would be an improvement.
You're being more glib than I need you to be, Mr. Campbell. I appreciate your descriptive narrative, but you're willing to enforce the provisions of the Bill?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee. My name is Richard Bruno I'm here testifying on behalf of Councilman O'Neil on Bill No. 980388. 105 COMMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 980388 This bill is introduced at the request of residents who have had problems with vendors impeding traffic and causing dangerous situations in this area. I ask that it be reported favorably out of this Committee.
That non-substantive change will be made in the title. Thank you very much. That will conclude the business of the Licenses and Inspections Committee hearing for now. We will now recess the Licenses and Inspections Committee hearing until 6:00 p.m. today, June 10, 1998 in this room. Thank you very much. I believe the Appropriations Committee will begin momentarily. (Hearing adjourned 3:50 p.m.) - - - 106 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Committee on Licenses and Inspections is being reconvened. We are going to deal with Bill No. 980 -- I want to ask that all conversation -- I would ask right now politely all conversation in the room to cease. If you need to talk, you have to go outside 'cause the room acoustically is a problem, and any conversation carries. Bill No. 980239 is an ordinance 12 amending Section 9-402 and 10-108 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "Animal-Drawn Carriages and Rental and Carriage Horse Respectively" as well as approved route map for carriage horses to change the working conditions of horses and to restrict carriage horse routes and business hours, all under certain terms and conditions. The Chair recognizes Councilmember DiCicco for the purpose of offering amendments to Bill No. 980239.
Just for the record, we have a continuing quorum of the Rules 107 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING Committee, which was recessed a few hours ago and scheduled again for 6, and we're getting it now. So Councilman DiCicco, please read into the record the amendments and the purpose. Of the amendments.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I offer the following amendments to Bill No. 980239: Section 1, , under Section 12 1(f)(.1), and it should read at the end of that paragraph the following: "Special emergency permits may be acquired by contacting the Permits Section of the Department of Streets by telephone." On , to be added to Section B, B as in boy: "Temperature is over 92 degrees Farenheit or during other dangerous conditions." After the first sentence ending with the word "horse," add the following language: "Blankets suitable to the individual horse shall be used when the temperature falls below 32 degrees Farenheit." To the same -- I'm sorry, excuse me. 108 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING Under section 2, we should add Subsection C: "Owners shall not allow a horse to be worked on a public highway, path, or street for more than eight hours per day." Subsection D will read: "Owners shall not allow a passenger or passengers to be seated next to the driver of said carriage." Add section E -- I'm sorry, add Subsection E: "All stables to be inspected twice annually."
Just so that the record is clear, in the current ordinance and current regulations, who is empowered to inspect stables now?
The Health Department. To the best of my knowledge, it's the Health Department.
And so that the 109 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING record's clear, testimony prior was that the stables are inspected on average about four times a year. This would statutorily require it at least twice.
Mr. Chairman, from my recollection, it was the SPCA that conducted those inspections, not the Health Department.
The Health Department does it as a matter of regulation and statute.
Right. So the SPCA may get in there once, once a year.
The Health 110 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING Department. So that's four times a year the SPCA. The Health Department will be required to be in there twice. That's been recommended by Dr. Cheever, I think it was her testimony.
And the amendment is clear that when we talk about that second passenger, that's a person for hire, not an employee of the carriage company.
A paying passenger, they are prohibited from sitting in the seat next the to driver.
And lastly, the amendment will be to delete entirely Section 3.
To delete Section 111 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING 3.
Section 3. On the pink, for some reason, Section 3 was incorrectly printed. It should have been in italics as being proposed, if you look at the pink. The way you look at the pink now, it's as though it were part of the bill, but it shouldn't be there. It should have been in italics. So we're saying eliminate Section 3 completely.
So there will be no 14 approved route, no specified approved route?
No, we're not going to change from the route that is presently in place today.
This was a proposed change; we're not going to change it.
And I would request respectfully that the rules of Council be suspended. 112 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
Yes, sir. Any questions for the Councilmember on the amendments? (No questions.)
None? Any other testimony on this bill or on Bill 980388, which is an ordinance amending 9-205 of The Philadelphia Code relating to sidewalk sales banning and new provisions providing sidewalk sales on Verree Road from Oxford Avenue to Bloomfield Road, and Walnut Street from Pine Road to Algon. Seeing no other witnesses for these bills, that will conclude the public hearing of the Licenses and Inspections Committee. - - - 113 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
We will now move into the public meeting. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Tasco for a motion to approve the amendments to Bill No. 980239.
Mr. Chairman, I move that we adopt the amendments that have been presented. (Duly seconded.)
Moved and seconded. All in favor, aye. There are none opposed. The amendments to Bill No. 980239 are approved. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Tasco for a motion on the amended bill, 980239, with a rules suspension.
Mr. Chairman, I move that we report the bill as stated out of committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for suspension of the rules so that this bill could be heard at Council's next session. (Duly seconded.)
Moved and seconded. 114 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING All in favor, aye. There are none opposed. Bill No. 980239, as amended, will be reported out of this committee favorably, and a request will be made for rules suspension to allow for first reading at our next Council session. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Tasco for a motion Bill No. 980388, with a rules suspension.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 980388 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for the suspension of the rules so that this bill can be heard at the Council's next session. (Duly seconded.)
It's been moved and second. All in favor, aye. There are none opposed. Bill No. 980388 will be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation, and a request will be made for rules suspension to allow for first reading at our next Council. 115 COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING That concludes business of the Licenses and Inspections Committee. (Adjourned at 7:50 p.m.) - - - 116 C E R T I F I C A T E WE HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, June 10, 1998, were reported and accurately by us, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS BILL NO.'S 980339, 980388 __________________________________, LISA C. BRADLEY, Registered Professional Reporter __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter