COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON STREETS - - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Friday, May 28, 2004 11:25 a.m. - - - - BILL 040370 - an ordinance amending the ordinance approved January 3, 1992, Bill No. 10 1205-AA, which pursuant to Subsection 9-204, Section (8)(a) of Philadelphia Code, designates the locations in Center City at which vending is permitted, by deleting all permitted vending locations on both sides of Eighth Street between Market and Chestnut Streets PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS, Vice Chair
Ellen Berkowitz Rosalie Leonard - - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X BILL PAGE PAUL LONIE, Streets Dept........... CHARLES DENNY, Streets Dept........ 29 3 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
Good morning, everyone. This is a continued hearing of the Committee on Streets and Services from May the 26th. The Clerk will read the title of the first bill.
An ordinance amending the ordinance approved January 3, 1992, Bill 10 No. 1205-AA, which pursuant to Subsection 9-204, Section (8)(a) of Philadelphia Code, designates the locations in Center City at which vending is permitted, by deleting all permitted vending locations on both sides of Eighth Street between Market and Chestnut Streets.
Thank you. I am Councilman Juan Ramos, Vice Chair of the Committee on Streets and Services. To my left, a fellow member of this Committee, Councilman David Cohen. At this time I would like to call to the witness table Paul Lonie and Mr. Charles Denny. At this time, I'll turn over the 4 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 microphone to my esteemed colleague Councilman Cohen.
Thank you, Councilman Ramos. How did this ordinance develop? How did you get involved in this ordinance?
I'm not going to ask you to give me reports on general things. I asked the question, how did you get involved in this particular ordinance, not how you get involved generally. If I have a question about dealing with things generally, I will make that.
And when you get such an order or request, what do you do? Do you docket it in any way?
With this type of 5 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 ordinance, I'm not particularly sure, sir. I don't know.
With this particular type of ordinance where they're dealing with street vendors and things like that, that's really a Councilmanic decision where they choose to place or not place vendors within a certain geographic location.
We would like to make sure that there's no conditions that are created by having too narrow the sidewalk.
There are some things that are looked at in this type of a situation, yes.
So a Councilmember may ask for something that creates a problem or may not create a problem. How do you find that out, whether it creates a problem or not?
Generally, we go by ADA 6 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 requirements and things like that in this type of an ordinance. If there's a newsstand --
Could you speak directly into the microphone. I'm getting a general mumble.
If someone wants to vend on a street and it upsets the ADA requirements which is for a minimum of five feet of street clearance, then we would object to that simply for safety reasons.
And the City Plan has a certain street width for the sidewalk. And if this vendor wanted to locate in a place that's too narrow, we would object to that.
Now, to object to any of those things, you'd have to have that information, right?
Now, you don't know that offhand, do you, about every place in the City? 7 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
We do. Every place in the City must be on the City Plan with a designated street with a sidewalk width.
But don't you have to check it out to see whether that's the case?
If someone comes to us with a question of the correctness of that, we would go check it out. But other than that, the street widths and the sidewalks are set by Council, they're not necessarily set by us. You authorize us to make those widths, so we have to keep records of the width of every sidewalk, legal sidewalk, that is, in the City.
And if I wanted to know at a given time whether there had been a request from anybody, from a Councilman or from anybody for a change in a situation affecting vendors, how could I as a citizen of this City find that out? Could I call the Streets Department to find out has any request been made for a change?
You could call the 8 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 Streets Department, the head of our right-of-way unit is a man by the name of John Cunningham, you could direct your questions to him. It's his unit that would deal with those types of situations.
How would he have known whether Councilman DiCicco or anybody else requested this change?
I'm sure in his -- I'm not sure specifically how he does it, but I'm sure, like any other place in the City, when there's a Councilmanic request we keep a record of that because we must respond to it within a certain time period.
It would be kept in the individual units that deal with that sort of thing. Again, that's on the 9th floor of the Municipal Services Building, the right-of-way unit is where those records would be kept.
And is there any standard for the keeping of those records?
Standard within the 9 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 unit, not standard throughout the Department.
It would be standard within the individual units, not standard throughout the entire Streets Department on how those records are kept.
You mean the unit could decide whether it wanted to keep a record or didn't want to?
No, no. They all must keep records, but how specifically those records are kept are up to the individual units, not necessarily --
When the request was made, who the request came from, and any action taken on the request, and that's kept all by the individual units. Whether it's a City Plan change that's kept by my unit; a traffic change, that's kept by Charlie's unit or; again, a right-of-way which in this case it would be kept by John Cunningham, the 10 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 right-of-way manager.
How is it available? Can a request be made for the record and a copy furnished?
It's part of the public record. The files we keep are discoverable and anybody can basically have access to them unless it's privileged information, if we deal with the Law Department. But other than that, everything is public record. Any dealings we have with the public would be --
Well, I don't know what you mean when you say it's a public record. I know what a public record is supposed to be. But how does the citizen learn that it's a public record? How does the citizen get the information on the public record? 11 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
If they call the Streets Department, they would be directed to the right-of-way unit and that person would be told exactly how they could get that information.
If there is written information. If this was not a verbal or an e-mail request from a Councilmember, then, yes, of course.
No, it can come from a private citizen. If it comes from a private citizen, it's definitely in writing, though.
And suppose that request has been made and has not been met, what does the citizen do?
They would probably eventually call the Streets Commissioner or their District Councilperson and say, "I had this request in. It has not been met. Can you help me?" 12 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
Well, I understand there have been efforts made to get information from the Streets Department and requests have been made and they've been promised that they would get the request, but nothing has been forthcoming, that that's how the Streets Department continually keeps things private that ought to be made public by not furnishing them. Now, what does a citizen do or the office do if the request has not been compiled with? To whom do they complain?
Again, they can talk to the Streets Commissioner. For the most part, if whatever information someone is seeking is available, it's complete -- I would hate to share information with anyone that's not necessarily complete because that could be misleading. Once that's complete, I'm sure that can be shared with anyone that asked for it.
Is that left to the will of the person in charge of the unit to make the decision as to whether the 13 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 information is complete and is ready to be divulged and should be divulged? Or is there a body that makes that decision?
No, there's no body that makes that decision. It would be up to the individual unit because everyone works slightly differently. My plans for curb lines and different things like that have a different process than a right-of-way if you were asking for a vendor or a trash dumpster or if you were asking for a stop sign or some other type of traffic device.
Does the Council Office have greater rights than the citizens to obtain this information, or do you have equal rights?
No. They can probably make us finish whatever we need to finish faster than a private citizen could, but they don't have any greater rights to look at anything.
If we don't finish 14 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 something completely -- I mean, a Councilmember says, "I need this finished," we would probably have to make that more of a priority than if a private citizen said that. But other than that, the same availability of the information is there. If it exists, we'll share it. If it does not exist to its fullest extent, we can't share it.
What happens if other requests come in about the request that's already made, other people come in, call, inquire, do their inquiries get listed in the same place?
They get told who at this point in the process has that information that they're looking for. I've had some e-mails from some inquiries of different things like that that I don't have the information some of these citizens have been looking for, but I did put them on to Mr. Denny who when he's finished whatever investigations he needs and whatever section 24 of the City he's working in, then I'm sure he'd be willing to share that information. 15 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
Is a file note who has made inquiries about the case? What happens if I call up about a request made by Councilman DiCicco, I as a Councilmember make a request that be noted in the file that Councilman Cohen showed an interest in the question and he approved or disapproved it or had no comment, merely wanted information, whatever my comment is, would that appear in the file?
If it were a conversation between you and someone in the Department, probably not. If it was an official request in writing, then of course it would be noted in the file, or an e-mail. I mean, we have some -- we have a process --
Wouldn't it be interesting for people to know who's inquiring about matters? It might be totally irrelevant and it may appear so on the surface that Harry Evans of 327 Westmont Street made a request for further information about this and somebody might know that person or may not know. They could form a judgment. But 16 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 wouldn't it be interesting why was that request made.
If they have come through the Streets Department information system -- we have a information system, and the request is noted, their name and address is taken, and that is passed on to the unit that's in charge of whatever project that happens to be. That is always noted. If someone puts it in writing there's a Councilmanic means of transmitting or request directly to the Streets Department and these stay open until they're addressed either by the Commissioner or by the unit head, they're always on the record.
Suppose I made a request to the Commissioner for something to happen, say, in this vendor situation, and I talked directly to the Commissioner and not to the unit. Would that be noted in the file 22 somewhere so my interest could be seen?
If the Commissioner chose to share that with the unit head, it probably would be noted. If the Commissioner 17 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 for whatever reason decided not to share that with the unit head, it probably would not be noted. We would have no way of knowing that information.
Suppose the unit knew that the Commissioner had called a head of the unit saying, "You're going to get a request from Councilmember So-and-so about this item; make sure you handle it properly and appropriately." Wouldn't that be noted in the record that a Councilmember had notified the Commissioner of an interest in a matter and that the Commissioner called to make sure it was properly handled?
I can only speak for myself in that situation. I probably would not necessarily place that in the file. But I would alert anyone on my staff that -- we'll say Councilman Cohen called, I would like to speak to him directly because he expressed an interest in this.
Well, how would the public ever get to know that I had shown 18 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 an interest in the matter?
If it was just a conversation, then I probably would not. I'm just saying if you had placed something in writing, if you sent me an e-mail that said, "I'm interested in this. Anything further going along, I'd like to be informed," or whatever like that, I would have to deal with that.
Well, you used the word conversation. Is there ever just plain conversation between a Councilmember and a staff member that deals with the subject matter of the staff member's work or possible work?
It, of course, could possibly happen. The Councilmember can call anyone they choose.
Suppose the Mayor were interested in that proposal, whatever this proposal about eliminated vendors on Eighth Street that are permitted in the bill, would that be noted?
If it was a 19 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 conversation, no, it probably would not be noted. It would be noted mentally, that's for sure.
It would be noted mentally that the Mayor had called and said, "I'm really interested in this. I want to know what's going on." Then I, of course, would make a mental note. But would I ever put that in the thing, I probably wouldn't. It's just the way I am. If the Mayor sends something to me in writing --
Is there a rule or requirement that all such interceptions be recorded?
If they're in writing, then absolutely. I can't throw them away and dismiss it.
Are you saying as long as the Mayor or whoever it was made the call, did it in an oral way, not in writing, it wouldn't be noted?
I can only, again, 20 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 Councilman, speak for myself. If the Mayor --
But aren't there any rules by which you're governed, or does each individual make its own rules?
I don't know if there's anything that unless something is corresponded in writing that there's a necessary requirement of keeping that within a file. If I'm in a passing conversation with the Mayor or with anybody in Council, I don't know if I'm required to go back to my office and keep that in a specific file unless there's a direct response that's required.
Well, don't you think it's of interest to the people to know of Mayoral action; interference some people might call it; good sound intervention, other people might call it. But however they define it, isn't it a matter of importance to the public to know the Mayor, for one person, is interested in something or has shown an interest in it?
Well, that's true. I mean, I suppose it would be interesting to 21 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 show.
Well, then why would you feel that you don't have to include a notation that the Mayor called to inquire how things were going?
Well, mainly because in the Streets Department, we're in the Civil Service. It's our responsibility to give information, to make sure things are technically correct, to make sure that certain information is known. But any decisions that are made on any of these bills is not the responsibility of the Streets Department; it's the responsibility of this Council or the Mayor. We're not elected into that position. And all we can do is furnish the information that's asked for. If the Mayor's interested in something --
But you hide information. If you have information that the Mayor or another high official has made inquiries about something, but you take advantage of the fact that it was done orally 22 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 and so there's no record of it, you take steps to make sure that no record of it does appears anywhere, you don't put it anywhere. It's between you and the person that called that such a call was made. Aren't you denying the public the opportunity to know really who's interested in the subject, what levels of government they are, and what the nature of their interest is? You have that information, but because you didn't get it in written record, you felt no need to cover that.
Well, the information doesn't change, no matter who's interested or not interested in it. The information remains the same. If the Mayor happens to be interested in certain information, it's my responsibility to make sure that information is correct, not that the Mayor is interested or not interested in it. Therefore, his showing a interest in certain information is not going to affect the information itself.
You mean in theory it shouldn't affect the information. 23 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
Well, how do you know what the necessary information you're going to need on the subject? Take this matter that I'm raising with you on the vendors, to know what are the factors you use to decide whether or not vendors should remain on a street.
At these particular locations, in this bill, you have a request from Councilman DiCicco about the bill. How do you decide that it's a good thing or not?
We can't decide. It's not our responsibility to decide if it's a good thing or not. That's your responsibility as City Council. It's our responsibility to say if it's safe, if it's technically correct, and if it's within the Code. And if not, then we have to inform you of those facts. Whether it's correct or incorrect -- 24 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
Instead of dealing in generalities, why don't you give specifically. You got this request from Councilman DiCicco. How did you go ahead and deal with it?
Well, we would have to go out and check. As you know, there's only a certain amount of venders that are allowed on any number of corners within a certain area. There's a certain requirement for the street width of the sidewalks in certain areas and do they have the technical ability -- if you have two street vendors on two corners, I don't believe you can put a third unless there's strange circumstances.
Well, wouldn't you have known that without a complaint from Councilman DiCicco? If someone comes in, applies for a permit to put that there, we would have to take a look and see if we could legally grant that permit. If we say -- we would come before this Council at that point in time and 25 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 say, "We have no objection," which means we have no technical objection. And the rightness or the wrongness of that is up to the Council. We can only testify on the technical side of any of these things.
And you don't do any checking yourself to see whether or not something that's technically in compliance today has been changed later on at any later time? We assume it always remains the same?
If someone has permission by this Council to occupy a space within the right-of-way, and as long as they keep their permits current, there's probably no reason unless we narrowed or widened the sidewalk in any given spot to check on that because the Council has already ordained that they have the ability to be there.
Well, say Council ordains that as of a given time. The Streets Department never bothers to check whether or not the vendor just is using one location. Maybe the vendor decided that next time it was too much red tape spent getting permission 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 last time; this time he just move ahead because he knows nobody is watching.
I mean, we don't have the number of inspectors perhaps we should to go out and do that. But believe me, the other vendors in the area will inform us if someone moves to a place where they weren't before and then we will look at something.
Does this requirement as to the number of corners you go on, does that have anything to do with safety factors?
I'm not sure why that is the way it is. I just know that that is the rule. And for the most part, once we come through and say everything is okay, L&I is the one that regulates the vendors that are on the streets. And as long as they keep their permits current, then I think there's no 21 reason for them not to be there unless, again, like in this bill here, the Council decides that there's maybe too many and they want a lesser number to be there. That's a Councilmanic decision, not necessarily one by 27 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 the Streets Department.
The Committee will stand in recess for about 30 seconds. (Brief recess.)
I'm going to ask Ellen Berkowitz, Clerk of the Committee, to direct some questions of the witnesses. Ms. Berkowitz, proceed.
Mr. Lonie, you've outlined a number of procedures that you follow in the case of street vendors. Are these procedures that you would follow in other areas as well generally?
Well, suppose you had a request for opening a new street. How would that request proceed?
That would come through the Streets Department. That would have to come from a private citizen.
Yes. Or a widening or a 28 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 narrowing or anything like that.
Council would send requests, and I would talk to the individual Councilperson and say, "I need a request to come from the individual people because it's their property that's going to be affected and, therefore, we're going to ask them to sign some releases and different things like that.
I'm sorry. You were explaining that opening a street, for instance, or widening it, the request would come from private citizen?
Yes, it would. One of the requirements in the Code is that someone called a parting interest must make the request. They have to have a viable interest in the street itself, which means they must be an abutting property owner. 29 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
Directional changes can come from constituents to Council, from the Councilpersons themselves, the District Councilpersons, or it can be an administrative function from the Streets Department if we're trying to resolve a safety problem.
And Mr. Lonie indicated that he keeps a record, for instance, in the case of -- the right-of-way unit would keep a record of who made the request; is that correct? Would you do that as well?
All written requests we have a record of and all requests that have actions we have record of.
What are your 30 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 responsibilities generally, Mr. Denny?
I oversee the engineering section of the traffic engineering division. Traffic engineering division maintains signs and signals for the City of Philadelphia.
Determines whether they are required to be in a location and if they're missing that we put them back. In the case of signals, when there's signals operation, we maintain them and make sure they're continuing to function. We also determine whether or not certain types of traffic control devices should or should not be installed.
I don't know because you can define a study in many different ways. I 31 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 mean, every time we look at something, we basically call it an investigation but you can call it a study also. So the numbers are different. There are different levels of studies that I we do.
Are you familiar with the PennDOT regulations regarding the change of the direction of traffic?
PennDOT really doesn't have regulations that deal so much with direction of traffic. They basically do require you to look at what is occurring, what the street characteristics are, what the street widths, the street classification is, what the volume is on the streets. But generally, PennDOT leaves whether a street is one-way or two-way, unless it's a state highway, to the local municipalities.
Excuse me. What do you mean they require you? Does PennDOT walk in? Does a body walk in or does something called PennDOT regulations walk in 32 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 and tell you do so and so? How do you know what you have to do and what you're required to do?
PennDOT has regulations that we follow and we get copies of those regulations.
PennDOT has regulations that we follow and we have copies of those regulations.
What are those regulations that require you to do whatever it is you do?
In most cases, Publication 201 covers most studies. There's also the sign manual and sign regulations that deal with what signs go in what locations.
Are there any regulations you have to switch and permit PennDOT itself to do?
Well, PennDOT is an organization? 33 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370
How do you know whether they feel they ought to be doing it or you ought to be doing something?
In the case of City of Philadelphia, it's a City of the first class. Most traffic engineering functions are handled by the City. PennDOT only host traffic regulations on the limited access expressways.
Does PennDOT describe the procedures that the City is to go through 34 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 in doing a traffic study?
It applies to a number of different elements. It applies to speed limits, whether or not you would prohibit trucks, the posting of all way stop signs, the installation of traffic signals. It also regulates angle parking, where it is or is not allowed based on width.
It only applies to one-way streets? What does that mean? My understanding is that 201.51 applies to a traffic study pertaining to one-way streets.
Not directly, but you 35 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 can use it when you're looking at a one-way street pattern. One-way streets are the function of a local government, and PennDOT would not be involved unless it was a state highway.
So what kind of analysis do you do when you conduct this study? What are the criteria?
We classify the street, whether it's local, collector, or through street arterial. We look at what the crash history is on the street. We look at the widths of the street, the geometrics, whether it can handle two-way traffic or it can't handle two-way traffic. We look to see that whatever properties along the street have access.
And what would you consider to be the length of an average study, how many days, for example, how many months?
Well, average studies 36 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 you're not studying consistently. You're doing studies and you're doing other work, so sometimes you have to collect data. Until that data is collected, you can't really analyze something. But the final evaluation could probably be done in an hour or two once all the data that is available was collected if it's needed.
Well, how is the data collected? Is somebody there on a daily basis?
At the particular location, at the street where you're dealing with a change in direction, the posting of a traffic signal.
Someone would go out on the required times and observe the intersection, maybe do traffic counts. We also have devices that record traffic volume and speed that we might place at locations.
When you put together a report on such a study, what does 37 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 the report include?
It probably just includes general information. It doesn't necessarily go into specifics.
What happens to the supporting data that went into the report?
It's probably in a file 9 somewhere. MS BERKOWITZ: Is that information available to the public?
I would have to check to see what is. Not everything we have is available.
Well, certain crash information would not necessarily be available if it was specific to individuals.
Well, for instance, if I go the police district and I ask them how many accidents of a particular kind occur in a particular area, they will give me that information without giving me the identity of the individuals. Why is that not something 38 05/28/04 - STREETS - BILL 040370 that you --
That is information that is available, that can be made available.
Does the report take into account what type of accidents there are?