COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE JOINT COUNCIL COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES and PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Monday, November 20, 2000 3:15 p.m. Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - - - RESOLUTION 000635 - Authorizing the City Council's Committee on Public Health and Human Services and Public Safety to hold an immediate joint committee hearing to investigate the quality levels of drinking water the City's school children and teachers are exposed to throughout the School District of Philadelphia in order to assure that children and the general public are safe from any toxic threat to their health. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 I N D E X School District of Philadelphia Pedro Ramos, School Board President. . . . . . 5 Tom McGlinchy, Chief Operating Officer . . . . 13 Marijane Hooven, Manager, Environmental Office 17 Denise Baker, Assistant General Counsel. . . . 127 Jack Steinberg, Philadelphia Federation of 73 Teachers, Chairman of Health and Welfare Fund Dr. Walter Tsou, Commissioner. . . . . . . . . 88 Philadelphia Health Department Bill Madeira, PCCY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101 Vernard Johnson, Healthy Family/Health Start 106 Kelly Shepherd, Private Citizen, Parent. . . . 122 Falaka Wright, Concerned Parents of Phila. 129 3 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 P R O C E E D I N G S
Good afternoon. This is the recessed hearing on Resolution 000635 that was recessed to today. A quorum had been established on the prior hearing; we will continue today with the hearing. Would you read this into the record, please, the tile of the resolution.
Resolution No. 000635, authorizing the City Council's Committee on Public Health and Human Services and Public Safety to hold an immediate joint committee hearing to investigate the quality levels of drinking water the City's school children and teachers are exposed to throughout the School District of Philadelphia in order to assure that children and the general public are safe from any toxic threat to their health.
Thank you. The health and the water of our kids is, obviously, one of the most importance issue that is we can have. Kids that should have the expectations that they go, when they enter a school building, that they will be safe, safe when 4 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 they travel the hallways, safe when they are in the classrooms, safe when they are in the school yard, and safe when they drink the water. That expectation also is shared by the parents and those of us in public service. It is unsettling, to say the least, to find out that maybe some of our water and maybe not just some, but quite widespread of our water may be poisoned by lead. In this Council, in my years that I've been here, we've had hearings about lead poisoning and trying to abate the danger and -- of lead poisoning many, many times, from 1984 to the year 2000. I can tell you that we have spent years investigating, trying to fix up the problem in the City of Philadelphia and in the different homes and row houses that we have across the City. It becomes settling much more so, disturbing, very disturbing when we find that for years, we've had the problem with the drinking water of the City of Philadelphia, in the public schools. So that was the reason why this Council passed the resolution and set up these hearings. We're glad that President Ramos, the President of 5 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 the Board is here, I'm glad that we've been reading in the papers that cooperation between the EPA and the School Board have taking place and I'm glad that -- to hear that resolutions to some of these problems are going on. All we want to do is to see when the problem started, although that may be hard to ascertain, but we want to find out what the extent of the problem has been, what has been done about it, and what needs -- still needs to be done in order to make sure that this doesn't happen ever again. So could Pedro Ramos, the School Board President, Thomas McGlinchy, and Marijane Hooven -- Pedro, is that the team?
Mr. Ramos, you have the microphone, you know -- you've been here before, so you know the drill, identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon, Chairman Ortiz, Councilman Mariano, Councilman Rizzo, and Councilman Clarke. My name is Pedro Ramos. I've 6 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 been President of the Board of Education since December of 1999 and a parent in the Philadelphia public schools since September of 1996. I appreciate the opportunity of sharing information about an issue that is important both to City Council and the School District: safe drinking water. With me are two key members of what you might call our "Safe Drinking Water Team." Mr. Tom McGlinchy, the District's Chief Operating Officer, and Ms. Marijane Hooven, our Environmental Manager. I'm certainly not a scientist or a medical expert, so I'll defer to Miss Hooven and her counterparts in the City's Health Department to provide technical information, but I would like to share with you a brief overview of the District's Safe Drinking Water Program. The District entered into an agreement with the City on December 31, 1999 to take a number of steps in all School District buildings to ensure safe drinking water. So far, these measures have cost approximately -- over approximately $2.3 million. A significant part of this program is a 7 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 process known as "flushing." Flushing calls for our building engineers, very early each morning, to literally turn on drinking fountains, drinking coolers, and drinking faucets to expel the water that has been sitting in the pipes overnight. Mr. McGlinchy will give you more details about flushing later in our presentation. In the December agreement, the District and the City also spelled out other actions to be taken. They included: taking water samples from drinking and non-drinking water outlets in our schools and office buildings; having these samples testified by EPA-certified laboratories; and taking appropriate follow-up action when the test results warranted it. Pre-sample inspections got underway in January of this year, with the process of taking initial water samples commencing in February. As noted in the materials provided to Council in advance, as of October 31, 2000, 13,968 water outlets were tested, including the vast majority of the District's drinking water outlets. As of today, outlets at only one school remain to be sampled because an extensive bathroom 8 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 modernization project is still underway there. On October 18, 2000, the City and the District entered into a consent decree, spelling out further actions the District would take to ensure safe drinking water. One item we consented to was something that, in fact, predated the October agreement, namely to provide bottled water in schools where drinking outlets were not yet tested or test results were not yet in hand. That's something we started to do on October 10th as a proactive way of addressing the concerns of staff, parents, and students in schools where tests results from water fountains and coolers were not yet available. As of October 31st, 91 schools were receiving bottled water, awaiting test results for their fountains and coolers. In the October agreement, the City and the District also established a timeline for determining the first 50 sites for remediation, as well as a schedule for remediation in all of the remaining buildings.
Could you tell me how you established the criteria for selecting the first 50 sites? 9 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
I would be pleased to defer to my colleagues to tell you about that, Councilman, or to --
Thank you. As I was saying, in the October agreement, the City and the District also established a timeline for determining the first 50 sites for remediation -- I'll have Miss Hooven address that process, Councilman -- as well as a schedule for remediation of all the remaining buildings. In the remediation phase of the program, we will go in and determine how to address water outlets whose test results exceeded EPA action standards. In the October 18th agreement, we also said we would establish a way to share information about lead in water in general and our safe water drinking water program in particular. Later, Marijane Hooven will give you information about remediation and what the agreement calls "the 10 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 education aspect" of the Safe Drinking Water Program. I want to reiterate that the Safe Drinking Water Program, which we established in conjunction with the City and the EPA, is a priority for the School District. We have a new board of education and a new management team, including the interim CEO and the COO, Mr. McGlinchy. All are supportive of this initiative and all agree that safe drinking water deserves our full attention. It's important for Council to know this and our staff, students, and parents to know this too. We have appointed a staff member with the appropriate technical background to oversee this initiative -- that's Miss Hooven. She is committed to carrying out this program effectively. Thanks to the assistance of the City's Department of Health and the EPA, we have a good plan. All three organizations are on the same page, and we see that as a plus as we move forward. Finally, we've committed time, 11 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 attention, and resources to carry out this plan. We've taken more than 14,000 water samples to date and sent them to EPA-approved labs to be tested for lead content; we've taken 594 drinking water outlets out of the service, based on test results; we've provided bottled water at a cost a day of more than, it says here, 329,000 to schools that are awaiting test results, and turned off all of their water fountains until we know which ones can be returned to service. It says here 329,000. I'll also point out, Councilmembers, that at today's board meeting, which is currently recessed until a couple hours from now, the board has approved almost $800,000 of expenditures of needed requirements contract for the purchase and storage of water under this program. Finally, we are developing a work plan for remediation. The District cares, it's committed, and we're moving forward. Before closing, I think it's important to acknowledge that this project has not been without its bumps along the way. We've had to be diligent. On occasions, we've had to reiterate 12 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 that this project is a system-wide priority, and that it was to be treated as such by all employees involved in it. I've been personally involved in this project for two reasons: First, I think that it -- and I hope, that it sends a signal to the City and the EPA that this project has the board's support and, when and if necessary, some hands-on involvement at the top; second, I've been involved because any issue concerning the safety of our students and staff deserves that kind of attention. From my interaction with the City and the EPA officials, I feel confident that we can and will work together to ensure safe drinking water in our schools and offices. I view the City and the EPA as our partners in this endeavor. That's something that I've communicated to our staff; I expect them to be guided by this perspective. I'd especially like to thank the Department of Health for working with us in many ways on this important initiative. The Department has devoted a great deal of staff, time, and 13 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 attention to our Safe Drinking Water Program.
And, as the project progresses, it will demand much more. We appreciate this commitment to our students and our staff. Now I'd like to ask or chief operating officer, Tom McGlinchy, to give you a brief overview on flushing, sampling, and testing -- some of the safe components of our Safe Drinking Water Program.
Thank you, Mr. Ramos. Good afternoon, Chairman Ortiz and members of the Committees on Public Safety and Public Health and Human Services. My name is Thomas McGlinchy. I'm the Chief Operating Officer for the School District of Philadelphia. Generally speaking, the components of the School District's Safe Drinking Water Program are flushing, sampling, testing and remediation of drinking water outlets, and education of the public regarding the program. Mr. Ramos spoke brief about the flushing component of the program. Let me be a little more specific. Our building engineers have been 14 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 thoroughly trained in the daily process of flushing sinks, drinking fountains, and coolers. Building engineers are trained not only in the technical process but also in the preparation of daily logs of their work. Supervisory personnel perform daily random checks of this work. The EPA has prepared a training video on the process, and copies of the EPA guidance document, titled "Lead in Drinking Water in Schools and Nonresidential Buildings," have been distributed by the School District. The District's environmental manager conducts periodic follow-up checks on the process. The daily flushing assignments require a bit of creativity on the part of our staff. For example, picture a water cooler, which is activated by either pushing a button or stepping on a treadle. With dozens, maybe hundreds, of water outlets to flush each day, our building engineers can't stand there holding the button or depressing the treadle for the prescribed flushing period; they've got to move on, to turn on the next outlet and the next and so on and so on. Consequently, they use chairs to hold down 15 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 treadles or use duct tape or specially-designed clamps or jigs to depress fountain buttons. Flushing has to be accomplished before students and staff arrive for the start of the school day. This means that in an elementary school, building engineers may have to start their flushing duties as early as 6 a.m., in advance of their regular work day. Flushing in high schools may require staff to arrive as early as 4 a.m. This has resulted in overtime cost of over $1.3 million through October 31st of this year. Regarding sampling and testing, Mr. Ramos mentioned that the District is in the process of sampling both drinking and non-drinking water outlets in all schools and other buildings. The credentials of the firms providing the service to the District are included in the material that was provided you in advance of this hearing. Initial sampling is very close to being complete for all drinking water outlets throughout the District. Outlets at only one school remain to be sampled. It is estimated that the cost of initial sampling and testing for all of our buildings will be over $700,000. 16 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 As of October 31st, the District has sampled a total of 13,968 drinking and non-drinking outlets. Since the sampling and testing process began last spring, 594 outlets have tested at parts per billion or above, 7 which is the prescribed EPA determined action 8 level. All of these outlets have been taken out 9 of service. 10 Mr. Ramos also mentioned that we've 11 been delivering water in 4-ounce sealed cups to 12 schools that were awaiting test results for 13 drinking water outlets. As of October 31st, the 14 District has spent more than $329,000 for this 15 water. 16 Perhaps the most challenging and 17 possibly expensive component of the District's 18 Safe Drinking Water Program will be what our 19 technicians term "remediation." The District's 20 Environmental Service Manager, Marijane Hooven, who holds a master's degree in environmental health and is a certified occupational and health safety technologist, is here to explain the remediation and educational aspects of the District's program. 17 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
Microphone, and identify yourself for the record, please.
And I'm manager of the School District's Environmental Office. Thanks for that introduction. The School District has firsthand experience now that flushing, sampling, and testing activities associated with outlets in larger, older buildings are both time-consuming and expensive. However, it may very well be at this point that the most expensive phase of the water quality project has not yet begun. And what I'm referring to there are the expenditures that will be associated with the remediation. While it's not possible at this time to provide you with an accurate estimate of the actual costs that will be associated with the remedial actions the District does take, I can provide you with a general overview of the 18 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 approach the School District intends to use while it moves through this phase of the project. The first step that we need to do is identify School District locations that require remediation. There are 298 buildings in the program, and to date, we have sampled all of Category I and Category II outlets in 240 of those locations. Of the remaining 58, we have sampled all Category I outlets in 57; we have one school left to do again because of the massive --
I'm sorry. Category I is all drinking water outlets, ice makers, and hot and cold faucets in full-service kitchens and home ec. rooms.
She needs to be able to take this down (referring to stenographer).
Okay. Category II outlets are hallway sinks, bathroom sinks, and classroom sinks. Okay, as I mentioned, we have to 19 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 identify School District locations that require remediation, and we have 298 buildings. Based on information we have to date, I think it's very fair to say that 95 percent of School District buildings will require some degree of remediation. I don't want that large percentage to unnecessarily alarm anyone, because if you read the definition of "remediation," if I put one outlet out of service in one building, I have performed remediation, and I have done that in several instances. So just now that you're more aware of the scope of the problem the School District has to face with this large number of buildings, I think a more logical approach would be to take a smaller number of buildings, focus on them, identify what needs to be done, do it, and move on. That way, we're taking a very large project, we're putting control on it, and it's going to make it easier for us to record and report our findings to anybody who wants to know. I feel the other agencies involved -- the Health Department and the EPA -- are in agreement with us because, actually, as part of 20 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 the October 18th agreement, we are to have turned in, by April 1, 2001, the first 50 sites for remediation. Now, you brought up earlier how are they going to be determined, I can't give you that answer right now because that will be an interdepartmental decision. It won't be the District's decision; it will be discussions with EPA and the Health Department.
But while all of these things are happening, the need for remediation and all of those types still is needed.
And while we wait -- and we know what lead does, I don't even have to -- lead is harmful to learning.
And just even a small percentage of lead -- you know, it isn't just, as we discussed here and we've gone through a very long teachers' educational discussion over the last year about learning curve and so on. We 21 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 know that kids' learning curve is affected not just by classroom environment and learning tools that they have, but if they -- if they have lead in their water for any minimum of time, and it could be a minuscule percentage, and their learning capacity is affected.
I mean, it -- it -- I don't -- I don't mean to be -- but it -- to me, this is of great urgency. I know that --
I know that Pedro -- Mr. Ramos has kids in the public school, and so do I.
And as all the other parents. I mean, just tell me. I mean, by --
Well, I think, like, the next thing I want to say is that the easiest, least expensive acceptable long-term remediation for any category of any outlet that has a lead concentration above the actual level is to put it 22 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 out of service, and we have done that. And every school where every drinking water outlet came above the action level, they've all been removed from service. And, quite frankly, I would like to stress that that is a remediation that the District would really like to follow. It is the quickest, easiest, cheapest thing to do to eliminate a lead hazard in the schools, and we have really -- we've done all of that already. And I would like to say that we are going to look at putting out of service permanently as a major part of our remediation. We have 41 schools right now where daily flushing activities are no longer required because every outlet has been tested and every outlet -- sinks and drinking water outlets -- above the action level have been removed from service. So we may very well have completed the remediation of --
What have they been replaced with? If you closed them and you have 23 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 removed them from service, water is still needed on a daily basis for the kids.
Right. But as long as we removed them from service and no health codes are affected and the Health Department and the EPA are in full agreement with --
What I'm asking is if you have removed these things from service --
We are possibly not looking to replace because we have enough outlets to exceed health code. That's a major issue that we're in discussions with the Health Department and the EPA is that if we have substantial outlets available that exceed health code, a big remediation we would like to look at is to leave out of service permanently, remove from the wall.
I don't disagree with you. You see, I don't -- we're not in disagreement. I'm saying to you, if you have closed these things and put them out of service, I imagine that you have not closed the school, 24 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 right?
So kids, teachers,, janitorial staff, everybody else, parents are going in there daily. If you have removed them from service in these schools, what have you done in order to supply water?
I'll ask Mr. McGlinchy to correct me if I'm wrong on this because, as I've said, I'm not technician here, but I think what happens is that you basically get to a point -- you are closing off individual faucets. If you get to a point where you've closed off too many of then, then you're ending up providing bottled water.
Bottled water. If you've closed too many faucets in this process of this type of remediation, you end up with bottled water to make sure that kids -- 25 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
So you have -- then the answer is -- right, Mr. Ramos? The answer is, you are supplying bottled water in these places.
If -- if -- I think that what Miss Hooven was reacting to was -- take a school like Olney. I think the number of -- and I don't -- I just know what folks tell me here, but the number of faucets in Olney was 400, something like that?
I'm just picking one out. I have no idea what the facts are with Olney.
But I'm just picking one that I know has 400 water faucets. If in the process of testing, they figure out that some of those have to be turned off, at the end of the day what they do is, they look to see -- if they've turned off some but they still have enough sources of drinking water, then they might just leave the ones that they've turned off permanently turned off. If they get to a point where they've 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 turned off so many that there aren't enough sources of water in the building, then they would provide bottled water, in addition to the fountains they have left open.
But what we want to find out is how many of those places have been turned off so that you have to supply water, how many of those places are getting supplied with bottled water right now? And I'd like a list of those places to be given to this chair here and a listing of -- and at least a perspective of when we can expect, because that becomes quite expensive. And I imagine that in terms of remediation, that you're going to talk and address -- you would address, as you said, you're in conversation with the EPA and the Health Department and that it may require just a ripping off of these pipes, right?
And how far advanced are we in that analysis of infrastructure repair that may need to be done. Because we all know that our schools, the average age of our schools is 65 years old. We replace stadiums when they 27 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 get to be years old. And stadiums, it seems, are easily more replaceable than our schools and are much more expensive, but we replace them when they get to be 25, because they become uncomfortable to millionaires. And we have schools that are 65 or older. How are we going to do that? And what will be the projected or estimated expense as to that infrastructure? Because I believe it's needed, but. . .
Well, I -- to -- as far as 13 remediation, the first thing we want to do is look 14 at the most accessible replaceable component of 15 the affected outlet; that's the easiest thing to 16 do first before we even consider going behind 17 walls, that would be the last alternative. 18 But the first thing, as far as easily 19 replaceable unit -- part or component of the 20 outlet could be at actually the bulbar head 21 itself, or it could the screen within the bulbar 22 head that is no longer filtering but it's trapping 23 sediment and causing a problem with the drinking 24 water. 25 So what we would do is, that easiest 28 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 component first would be removed or replaced and then we retest. If the outlet passes, then we're done the remediation. If not, then we have to go to more extensive remediation, which might involve the brass fitting to the outlet or it might involve the supply line from the wall to the unit. But there is a sequence of events that has to be followed that we try the easiest, most accessible first, and if we get to a point that it has to go behind the wall, that will be an issue to discuss, but we -- we -- the plan is to try the easiest, most accessible replaceable components first and hope that they work.
Miss Hooven -- if I may, Councilman. What you do is, you go in and you set the screen and the bulbar, right? Then you work that down and you could possibly take the whole fountain off the wall.
And then you test that there, before you touch any pipe inside of the wall, right?
So you do the whole outward water fountain and the outlets --
So, have we done any of this yet to see where we are, or is it inside of the wall?
No. We have -- remediation is a step that we -- we are not to perform any remediation in a sense, other than putting out a service, without the EPA and Health Department approval on an individual basis, an a school-by-school basis.
Councilman, if you'll just give me a minute here. To the School District's knowledge, is there any other school districts locally, around here or nationally that has a comparable project to what's going on here? I mean, this is -- I mean -- you know, Boston must have the same problems as us, New York, where, you know, the schools are just as old.
I don't know whether MJ knows of any all. I mean, all I know is 30 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 anecdotally what I've heard, that many years ago, Baltimore had done something and Washington may have done something or was thinking about doing, but, I mean, this is -- you're right in terms of pointing out the scope, and it's something that's been amazing to me, which is that this is an issue that really affects, as I understand it buildings -- all buildings, really, in the United States built before 1991. And I know that -- I thought, you know, it, you know, it certainly made me think differently about what we do at home and that -- and I think the other thing is that we have, you know, that over time, these fixtures have been there in all of our buildings and probably in the world.
But, again, Mr. Ramos, not to interrupt you, and I appreciate your honesty in trying to answer this, but look, we're not here reinventing the atom here, or even the wheel at this point. I mean, the Housing Authority, the Department of Recreation, do we have -- do we know about programs that they have with lead? I mean, this isn't something new. I 31 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 mean, it might be new and scary, but we have kids in them rec centers still and we have kids, whether they're in them PHA houses and adults and all the people the good councilman spoke about.
No, but the reason I'm -- the reason I want to know is, if the Housing Authority per se is doing something like that, Councilman, then maybe there can be time and energy saved, where we're spinning our wheels, when we could find out what they do.
The response I've gotten to similar questions, Councilman, and we -- and, you know, and would ask staff to update that, you know, is that our efforts and many other public agencies have historically focussed more on lead paint, which is much -- you know, in terms of the risk of exposure is a much bigger problem. And to 32 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 some extent, we've been working, you know, with the help of the Health Department and the EPA and we have felt like we're somewhat breaking some new ground here because we do have a very old infrastructure and we're trying to get ahead of this, knowing that there are a whole lot of -- you know, that there are a whole lot of risks that children are exposed to and to the extent that we can help minimize one of those risks, we feel an obligation to do that.
I don't think it's a bad idea myself to learn from other people's experiences. And I think that, you know, if I ever had any criticisms, it's sometimes we hesitate in reaching out, and we have to build our own process before we learn from other people's mistakes or successes. I don't know why we should even hesitate to reach out to other areas. And, again, you can beat it to death, and I think we sometimes we reinventing the wheel to death -- 33 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
Yeah, if you'd like for Tom McGlinchy to share -- I mean, I know that Tom's made at least some phone calls in the process over the last, you know, year or so to some other places, and we'd be happy to have him share that.
Thank you Mr. President. The question I have for Mr. McGlinchy, I'm just curious, is the flushing process, the outlets that you maintain for use. School's over at whatever, let's say 2:30, and that outlet is not used again till it is flushed the next morning. I'd be curious to see some numbers. You bring people in at 4 o'clock, we've wasted -- we don't even consider the water that we've put down the drain in any of this scenario and the thousands and hundreds -- probably thousands of gallons of water that's going down the drain. Does the School District pay for the water?
Because it's lots of water down the drain. At 4 o'clock in the morning, you irrigate, you flush a fountain. School starts at what time? 34 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
A lot of kids -- I 5 don't know how much water they consume at 8:30 in 6 the morning, but I assume that the fountain then 7 becomes usable. At 4 o'clock, when you flush it, 8 how long do you flush it at 4 in the morning, 5 in the morning?
Well, it depends on the size of the building, but it could be a couple, three hours in a large high school.
What time do they actually shut it off? In other words, you put the chair on the trip liver, the fountain is flushed, it's shut off. At that point, has anyone ever tested, when you shut the fountain off, what the numbers are before it's next used? In other words, if it's sitting there after it's been flushed for two hours, three hours, have you really accomplished anything?
Well, let me answer the 35 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 question about -- the whole purpose of flushing in the early morning is because the water has -- has been inactive for, let's say, hours or so, and 5 that's where you get the highest buildup of lead 6 in the water. The initial flush of the whole 7 building essentially cleans the pipe of that 8 buildup. 9 When the building is in service, most 10 of those fountains are being constantly used 11 during the day, so you have the water running 12 through the system and you prevent the kind of buildup you would experience at -- if it had lain there for 8 to 12 hours.
That's not the period of time I'm really talking about.
I'm talking about the period of time -- you start flushing at 5 o'clock in the morning, you flush it for a half hour. At 5:30, 6:30, 7:30, 8 o'clock what's occurred during that period of time?
We flush the building until -- essentially, until the occupants come in. What occurs after that is, the fountains are 36 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 use, the outlets are used to some degree or other, so they're not laying inactive for eight to ten hours.
The occupants, in a way, are flushing because they're using the water.
But my point being, at 4 o'clock in the morning at a particular school, someone puts the duct tape over the button, that fountain runs until school begins. There's no period between when the flushing process occurs till the first water's consumed.
Well, if you'll picture a high school where the building engineer starts at the highest point of the school and just works their way down to the first floor, turning on all the outlets, then goes back to the top and shuts them off in the same sequence. So you can never have it where you time it exactly when the building occupants are in. However, I think your point is, at some -- during some period of time that the water is laying inactive, before the building occupants are there. 37 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
In our judgment, and Miss Hooven can tell us if they've tested outlets that have been laying for two hours. In our judgment, the initial flush, which is the purging the pipes of the water that has for eight to ten hours and built up highest concentration of lead is the safest method to go, short of shutting off water in the entire building.
Has there been any research or any -- and I know we have plumbing codes in the City of Philadelphia. Have there been any -- is there any kind of concepts out there or technology to put a pipe within a pipe or to put something through the system that would seal off and encapsulize the lead? I mean, have we looked at that before we start ripping walls apart?
Well, since this problem has become public, I get about a call a week on a new method of addressing the problem. As a matter of fact, we're looking at one that is used in naval vessels for coating the inside of the pipes with epoxy. That is kind of an extreme 38 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 method. We don't think we're going to have too many schools where we literally have to go into the piping systems. But there are filters, there are coatings on pipes, there are stainless steel, there's ceramic fixtures for fountains, there are all kinds of things that are being looked at by the District and, I'm sure, by the Health Department, as a way to address this problem down the road.
Is there a point where the lead that's actually used in the joint leaches away to the point where there's -- the problem doesn't exist any longer? Is there a point where this problem fixes itself?
What basically happens is, you might think that older buildings are going to be the worst; that's really not the case. The older buildings really should be the better because with all of the years of the Water Department putting chemicals in the water for the purpose of getting to building to get inside the 39 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 piping, it coats. And what happens when the water changes the temperature cooler in the building, the chemicals they put in get dissolved and they come out of solution and they are actually meant to line the surface of the interior pipe. Therefore, if you have a change in water quality, for whatever reason -- maybe the water is a little more acidic that day, a little warmer, it's moving a little bit faster -- with that coding on the pipe, it's not going to have the corrosive characteristics that it would because of the chemicals that have coded, and those are what's leached off into water, more like calcium and things like that instead of lead.
It's a big challenge, and I would again encourage us to -- to look around.
I'd like to go back as to when actually we -- because it -- this precedes your tenure, Mr. Ramos, so it's -- it can't be -- the blame doesn't go on. This is a problem that we here in City Council, in 1990, in 40 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 December 1990, held hearings on -- in school, the contamination in school water coolers. And at that point, we in Council appropriated over $680,000 to sample school drinking water outlets for lead contamination. And according to EPA reports, at least 60 schools are included in the sampling that was done in 1991 and 1994. By at least two contractors that you hired Testwell, Craig & Con (ph.). I'd like to know what the results of those reports were. And if those reports that were done from the period 1991 to 1994 actually uncovered this problem. And then I would like to find out if this problem was known since that time, why did it take so long to begin taking the steps that we are now looking at taking? Because we knew there was there was a problem as early as 1990. We sat here in this body. And so I'd like a copy of those reports. I'd like to find out what those reports say about that? I'd like to -- can I get that, Mr. Ramos?
That was before my time, and we have one set of files -- 41 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
I do know that we don't throw things out in the School Board, I hope not, that once it changes administration --
What I can tell you is, when I started in -- I started in late July 1994 as the asbestos supervisor and I took over the Department in '96. The record-keeping was.
Poor. As far as any memos or anything, there were none. We had one set of files.
What EPA received from the School District in August 1999, and I -- if they received it in August of 1999, somebody must have sent it over.
They received a report by the contractors, which was Testwell, Craig & Con.
I'm not sure that you guys are talking about the same thing. We'll get -- you know, we'll review this and also make -- 42 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 double-check with staff to make sure we've got the right request and provide anything that would be in the ballpark of being responsive that we have.
Good afternoon. I have question here. I just want to understand this a little bit better. If you've taken 594 drinking water outlets out of service, what exactly does that mean as it relates to the total number of schools?
Councilwoman, the 594 outlets taken out of service are spread across 200-and-some schools. We have a list of just how many outlets were taken out of service in each individual school.
Okay. And how many outlets are in each individual schools? Is that included on the list too?
-- does that mean that Olney has 400 drinking outlets?
No, I didn't think so. 'Cause just recently, I was at Germantown High School and I couldn't even imagine 400 drinking water outlets in a high school. What I -- and I'd also like to get more information about the safety program and how you're explaining to children, particularly young children in elementary school, because, you know, on occasion, children will go into a restroom, wash their hands, and then, you know, use their hands as a cup to get water from a faucet that's in a bathroom. So how are these children -- what kind of safety program do you actually have as it relates to educating the children in the actual school, particularly in the elementary school? Well, in all schools, but. . .
What we are -- part of the water quality project, one of the aspects is education and there are two components. As far as 44 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 the public education, what we're doing is, we're working with the Health Department and the EPA, and we're creating an informational brochure that we're almost finished the final draft on that, and it's a very good brochure; the dialog is very short and concise, and the illustrations that go along with it are very simple to understand, and it gives a good picture of other potential exposures of lead for children in all areas, and ways that they can reduce or eliminate those exposures. Those brochures, when they are done and ready, they will be handed out and they will be sent to all School District locations to be sent home with each student. In addition to that, while working with the Health Department and the EPA, we have developed signs that we're putting up over bathroom sinks and classroom and hallway sinks because we just -- we're trying to get out there. And it's not just for schools included in the program; this is for every school in the City of Philadelphia, whether it's brand new or doesn't apply to the program, we're putting a sign over sinks saying "Do Not Drink From These Sinks," and 45 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 the learning we're trying to get out there is sinks -- we want you to get the mentality that sinks were not made -- we don't want you to drink from them, we want you to drink from drinking fountains and water coolers. So that just started, and it seems to be going pretty well. I get some phone calls concerning what does it mean. When I explain that it doesn't necessarily -- we are doing this School District-wide, in every School District building, in every bathroom, and over every sink to get the education out there to not drink from sinks.
So even before the brochure is developed, is that kind of message being conveyed now that there is a problem? Without the brochure, are teachers telling young children in particular --
Okay. And how does the distributing of the bottled water work? Is it easily accessible for students to get the 46 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 water, or do they have to go through a hassle or some cumbersome type of arrangements to get water if they're thirsty?
Councilwoman, what we've done is located the -- we have 4-ounce plastic cups with a peel-back lids, similar to what you might get on an airline. Actually, the bottler that we're buying from now --
-- also supplies of airlines. We take those cups and we locate them in a -- actually, it's a tub we bought from Home Depot, and we placed that tub next to water fountains designated by the principal. It could be every water fountain in the building or it could be just certain water fountains.
No, we do not -- we do not have the capacity to put ice in all of those things, and ice poses -- also poses a health 47 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 problem when water is sitting exposed like that. Water is delivered to a school. It can be on a daily basis, but now what we've done is kind of got our inventory in order so we don't have to make daily deliveries. It's distributed by food service folks throughout the building. So we have a pretty good system to get the water to the various locations within a school and to keep it stocked.
Okay. So then children really don't have -- students don't have to get permission to get a cup of water. Of course, they -- I'm not saying that once they're in their class permission, they don't need permission to leave. But just in general, if I'm walking down the hall and I'm thirsty, I can go to the fountain and just get a cup of water.
I would say -- I can't speak for all the principals, but if the principal allowed you to go to the fountain when you were walking down the hallway, I don't see why they wouldn't allow you to -- I would not see why the child wouldn't be allowed to go to the cup.
The ice doesn't 48 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 particularly -- I know that the water that comes out of the fountains, that's warm water, that's not -- well, at least at the schools I drank water out of, the water's not ice-cold, so -- but at least it's something that the people can have to drink, to quench their thirst. Okay.
Excuse me, could I just follow up for, like, 30 seconds?
Could -- you comment on the health standards, and I don't want to open up a Pandora's Box here and I know this has been kicked around for a lot of years.
What standards does bottled water have? Because I remember a particular company in the City of Philadelphia 49 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 that was charged with filling up bottled right out of the Philadelphia -- out of the fire hydrants. Are bottled -- in other words, when we see a bottle of water, like over there in the corner, is it regulated? Is there any standards that they need to meet? I understood that that was one of the most unregulated industries in the United States at one time.
Well, I can let Miss Hooven speak to that, but I will tell you that when we secured this water, one of the first things we did was, there should be a license, a bottled-under license number or something by "so and so" on each one of those cups, and we checked with the bottler and we checked the analysis of what was in the water, and Miss Hooven did that, but she can speak to whether or not bottled water is now better regulated.
I'm not going to say that it's better, but it's now better regulated. What happens is, where the water is supposed to -- where they allege the water comes from is very strictly controlled and they'll do samples from the spring where the water is taken from, and then 50 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 after the water is processed in those little containers, they do another set of quality- assurance, quality-control testing to see if during the manufacture of the bottles to put them in the little containers, did anything happen to damage the quality of that water. So there aren't bottled-water standards, but there are standards and licenses that people that supply the bottled water have to have -- they have to have a State license and they have to have a license for their spring.
What about the fact -- what about -- do we -- is there inspections of where it's actually put into the bottles? In other words, when we get a bottle of -- a five-gallon bottle of water, the spring -- it might have come from the spring and we're satisfied with that, but what about the process of when it got put in the bottle? Is there some regulation or --
Usually what they do again is, when they take the water from the spring, right from the spring, there's a test for -- I can't name you the number of things they look at. 51 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 After that water has gone through the processing plant and is bottled, they take another sample to see if the quality of the water changed from the spring through the processing.
So is -- again, I hate to put this on you, but is bottled water better than our City water?
I can tell you that the only -- this water, probably the only thing that it doesn't have is fluoride.
Isn't that something that want in the water, fluoride for our kids' teeth?
Not in spring water, no. I don't think spring water -- the Nature Valley doesn't come with -- 52 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
Answer the question. In your opinion -- you're a professional. In your opinion, and I don't want to use the word "better," would you say that bottled water is superior to municipal water?
No, I wouldn't because suppliers of public water have to meet.
Strict standards under EPA guidelines, and that's very strict that the City supply good water, and there's specific components that they evaluate. I wouldn't say it's better; I'd say you're looking at -- you're looking at spring water as opposed to publicly supplied water, you're looking at --
If the water in the public schools did not contain some pieces of lead, it would be very good for the kids because of fluoride and other things that it has.
But is it true that if it has a fancy French name, it tastes better? That's what I need to know. (Laughter.)
I believe we should 53 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 not concern ourselves with this mineral water, if I may, Councilman, okay?
Because we've got to get to the aspect of the school and the lead and the --
Well, I just want to make sure that we're not substituting something that might -- you pointed out something: we're substituting water that doesn't have fluoride. And I think we fought for a lot of years to put fluoride in the water as a --
You know, I guess our take on this would be that to -- bottled water for now -- bottled water for us, at the scale that we're using it now, is an interim measure while other remediation -- while some type of remediation 54 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 takes place.
I think you understand where I'm coming from. Again, I'm pleased to learn today that there are regulations, but I was just concerned that some of the reports that I've read that some of the bottled water -- we might be giving the kids something that we don't want to be giving them as a substitute for the water that is provided in the school system, and that was my only concern and I learned something here today about how bottled water is --
If I may, Mr. Ramos, I want you to indulge me with this. I want to -- have here the testimony of Mr. Bradley M. Campbell, he's the Regional Administrator of the EPA, and he could not be here, but his testimony -- he sent in his written testimony, which will be made a part of the record. (A copy of Mr. Campbell's written testimony was not provided to stenographer for inclusion herein.) 55 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635
And he gives a brief chronology of the EPA's involvement in a manner which is disturbing because of the timeline that is present.
Could you make a copy for Mr. Ramos? In the chronology that he puts forward, and I'll read it so that we can all see where we're at. It says: In March of 1998, the EPA was contacted by a citizen concerning lead contamination in the drinking water of the Bache Martin Middle School, located at North 22nd and Brown Street. That's right up the block from where I used to live. In conjunction with this complaint, the citizen supplied EPA with sample results -- now, this is a citizen -- performed by Testwell Craig, dated June 23, 1993. Now, this is the same -- this is the report that I asked you for a little while ago, and a citizen supplied this to the EPA. EPA contacted the School District's 56 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 Environmental Management Services Office on April 2, 1998 to determine if corrective action had been taken at the Bache Martin Elementary School; the School District did not respond. In October 1998, EPA hosted a compliance assistance meeting attended by representatives of the School District, the Philadelphia Water Department, the Health Department, (unintelligible), and EPA. That's the Philadelphia Environmental -- right, Commissioner? EPA requested that the School District provide additional information concerning the Bache Martin Middle School and other schools that may have had drinking water outlets with levels of ppb lead or higher. 18 Now, I've been told, and since I've 19 been dealing with this issue, they tell me that 20 20 ppb or higher is very dangerous and begins to affect the body at that point. Or, like I said, even a little bit of lead, from my own hearings before, even a little bit of lead in the water begins affecting the body of individuals. The EPA requested that this information 57 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 be submitted by December 31, 1998. The School District did not respond. In March 1999, EPA requested a walk-through of the Bache Martin Middle School and a review of sampling results. The School District's counsel -- and this I cannot understand -- instructed the EPA to get a search warrant to visit a school or review test records. A search warrant. There should be nothing to hide in this issue here. If we need to know if there's lead, there's lead, and we should not need a search warrant to find that out. I find this distressing. In late July 1999, the School District changed its position. That was three months afterwards. It's a long time if you're a kid and you're drinking water. Changed its position and agreed to allow EPA to review all of the lead-testing records for the entire School District. Correspondence from the School District's counsel noted that the test results covered approximately 100 locations. At the end of August 1999, the School District turned over the lead test results for 23 locations. At least 10 of the locations have 58 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 levels above 20 ppb lead in the drinking water sample. The accompanying materials seem to indicate that the samples were taken in response to individual complaints rather than as a part of a systemic sampling plan. And here comes that report again. The Testwell Craig & Con test results from the sampling program conducted in '91 through '94 were not included in the material received from the School District. Under Section 1431 of the Safe Drinking Water Act Emergency Powers, the agency has the authority to act to protect public health if, based on information it receives, that there may be an imminent and substantial threat to public health. Based on the information EPA had as of August 1999, EPA found it necessary to take action under these emergency powers, which is, I think, why these hearings then occurred. EPA shared its concern with the School District. In an attempt to obtain School District cooperation, EPA met on September 24, 1999 with representatives of the School District, the Health Department, City Solicitor's Office, PWD, and the 59 11/20/00 PUB.
HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 School District counsel's office. At that meeting, the School District agreed to enter into an agreement with EPA to flush the pipes -- this is September of '99 -- as a temporary remedial measure. Systematically tests for lead and (unintelligible) sources of lead contamination. On October 12, 1999, EPA sent the School District a draft emergency order of concern pursuant to EPA's authority under the Safe Drinking Water Act. The School District rejected the order and withdrew its previous oral agreement. On October 21, 1999, the School District agreed to implement a flushing program by November 1, 1999, in accordance with EPA guidelines, and to enter into an enforceable agreement with the City of Philadelphia Health Department by November 30, 1999. On October 29, 1999, the School District issued a work order to its building engineers to begin daily flushing in Philadelphia public schools. The provisions of the work order varied greatly from the flushing program to which the EPA and the School District had agreed. 60 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 EPA immediately provided comments to the School District on November 1, 1999. EPA conducted five inspections to schools in November 1999 to ensure that daily flushings of the pipes was being performed properly. The inspection sites were chosen by the School District. These inspections revealed that flushing was not being implemented effectively. The School District revised its work order of flushing per EPA's comments. Now, this was in November -- in November of '99, a year ago, I would imagine.
That's around the time that the problems in communication among the agencies got to such a level that they came to my attention. And I brought them to the attention of superintendent, and he and I became personally involved to the point that by the time we had this flushing program up and running, the superintendent and I, and still today, get a daily report on flushing, showing every school that was 61 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 flushed, the result. If a school wasn't flushed on a given day, it tells me why that school wasn't flushed, whether there was a problem with getting into the building that day or something like that. And it's, you know, I think there are -- there are -- there is no other way than to say that there has been -- among other things, there was a point where the School District and the Health Department and the EPA were either not communicating or not on the same page. We stepped this up as much as could possibly be stepped up with the superintendent and I not only becoming involved but getting daily reports, moving the day-to-day responsibility now to the chief operating officer, Tom McGlinchy, who reports to our chief executive officer. So that -- I mean, I think that the -- the chronology and the first couple pages, as I just skimmed them, also talked about -- Mr. Campbell talks about his recent experience. And then in terms of the responsiveness of the District, the School District has put this at the top of its list, of its priority list. I think we've addressed a lot of the, I'd say, 62 11/20/00 PUB. HEALTH AND SAFETY, RES. 000635 communication and perhaps some, you know, issues at mid-level among the agencies where we weren't communicating or coordinating this --
Well, I think you're taking the steps. I think the thing that bothers me is that from 1990, when we knew that there was a problem with this because we had hearings here, and maybe it's part our fault also because maybe we did not monitor this as adequately as a Council should have. From that point on in which you order a series of studies to be done by these contractors, knowledge was there. And the point is, how many kids have been harmed because this was not -- this process that you're implementing now is ten years too late.
Well, I can't speak for, you know, what Council was doing in 1990 or the District --
I'm saying that the problem was known in '91 and it is now that we are really implementing the procedures --