COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Friday, May 16, 2025 10:35 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN NINA AHMAD, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN QUETCY M. LOZADA, VICE-CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN CINDY BASS COUNCILMAN MICHAEL DRISCOLL COUNCILWOMAN RUE LANDAU COUNCILMAN NICOLAS O'ROURKE
Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Philadelphia City Council's Committee on Public Health and Human Services. I now note that the hour has come. Mr. Sham, would you please call the roll.
I note for the record that a quorum of this Committee is present. The entire Committee is present. Thank you. And this hearing is called to order. This is a continuation of the public hearing of the Committee on Public Health and Human Services considering testimony on Bill No. 250213. Mr. Sham, would you please read the title of the bill.
Bill No. 3 250213, amending Section 9-633, of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Self-Electronic Smoking Devices and Unapproved Nicotine Delivery Products," to update definitions and to provide for additional penalties, enforcement and compliance options, all under certain terms and conditions.
The Clerk will please call the first witness to testify on this bill.
Ben Hartung, Public Policy Advisor of the Philadelphia Department of Public Health. (Witness approached Witness table.)
Good morning. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good morning, Chair Ahmad, Vice-Chair Lozada, members of the Committee on Public Health and Human Services. My name is Ben Hartung. I'm a Public Policy Advisor with the Department of Public Health. The Department of Public Health supports the Vape-Free Futures Act, Bill No. 250213, as proposed to be amended today. And we thank Councilmember Ahmad for her work on this important issue. And I'm happy to take any questions you may have.
Any of my colleagues have any questions? (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you for your testimony. Clerk, call any other witnesses on our panel to testify on this bill.
There are no 3 more witnesses to testify on Bill. No. 250213, Madam Chair.
Hearing none, now we will transition to our public comments session. Please note that the time limit for each speaker is two minutes. Mr. Sham, would you please call the first speaker for public comment.
(Spanish translation). INTERPRETER: My first thing is that I want to say thank you and good morning to all of you. I thank you for giving our community the opportunity to express ourselves and to also share some things that we are concerned about. We are as a community supportive of the City organizing itself. But we as a bodega community would like to raise some issues about the budget and also the agreement. And we would like the opportunity for ourselves to organize ourselves. So I understand that your research might be based on some like scientific data, but I would like it to be based on real-world information from the field, because we are finding that the fines are too high. We would like to get together and be cooperating with you so that decisions can be made that are more cohesive. I know that your research is based on Temple University research. I would like to know if the study population is of young people or older people. So if you're studying young people that are older than 18, by law they can use what they want. So if you're studying a population between 50 and 70 years old, they need to look into whether they were using cigarettes or tobacco or if it's some kind of environmental exposure. I hope that you will take into account our concerns and the things that we've mentioned when making this budget, and that all of our concerns can also be taken into consideration when you're passing this legislation.
Thank you. The time has -- we gave extra time, so thank you very much for your testimony.
Thank you. Please state your name and stay within the two minutes because we started late so I want to be respectful of everybody's time. INTERPRETER: The witness speaks English, and I will be supporting her if needed.
Hi. Good morning. It's a pleasure to be here and speak for all of us as a community at the Dominican Grocery Association. Our concern is that we think that -- my name is Delphina Arias. And as a worker, as a Dominican Grocery Association, we not agree with the bill because since the beginning it was a lot of stuff that goes like against us, especially the fine is one of them. Because you mentioned it in the other meeting that you guys was going to take it to the highest, and that's something that I don't understand because you guys have the third party that makes the fines. And if they make the fines without going to the stores, what's going to happen to us if you guys approve the bill with the fines so high?
So just to be clear, no one will be fined if you card your customers and don't sell to minors, end of story. So you will have to pay nothing if you follow the law.
Yeah. But my question is like Ms. Quetcy Lozada said earlier, she says that the fine will be with the third strike. So you guys are going to clear all the fines are on record from all the stores to start from the beginning?
The highest fine is at 2,000 after your third violation, let's be clear.
Because my dad's store get closed for three days because we got a fine on record from 2021 and that's my concern. Like, if you guys going to clear up like a new account, that we all going to be with no 20 fines and records to start from the beginning. Because if we have -- like some of us has fines that's been fabricated. Imagine like if you got that on record and you guys approved that law was going to happen to us.
Are you done with your testimony? Is that it so we can answer you?
Okay. Thank you. In the interest of time, I will just say clearly again if there are outstanding fines, they should have been paid. So everybody's slate should be clear because everybody should have paid. If you have questions, if there's an appeal process, you're supposed to appeal the fine. If you have not done it, do it ASAP and then your slate is clean. So we are operating that everybody who has old fines should have cleared them, either paid them or appealed them and there's a process for that. And then the next time somebody comes and checks you if you have violated again, that's a new fine. So just want to be clear, the onus is on you, your responsibility to make sure that you're following the law. And this law is going to be saying that we are just changing the levels of the fine, but the process is still the same. You can appeal them. So thank you. And I want to yield to --
It's not a lot of us that's going to speak. So you mentioned in the other meetings from before and the two meetings that we've been before, you mentioned the red light violation in it. The second one, you said that what you guys did was put more light, more cameras. So why you guys don't do something like that with us? Instead of putting the bill so high because you say you was going to the maximum level, why you guys don't do try to do something different?
It is a step process 1, 2, 3, so we've already done that. We hear you. Thank you for your comments and we'll take this under advisement. So if there's anybody else who would like to speak please -- I yield the floor to Councilmember Isaiah Thomas.
Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I just want to say thank you for your patience and your willingness to allow folks to be able to have this dialogue back and forth because I just want to put on record that you are being gracious in the midst of allowing the witnesses to have the exchange back and forth. And I also want to commend you and explain to everybody that's here that you created a tiered process. So I'm listening to people talk about how much the fines are. And based on the amendments that I'm reading that I'm hoping that we pass out today, it says first offense will be $500, second offense will be $1,000 and third offense will be $2,000. I also want to state for the record that while we are recommending that people's records be clear, that's not a decision that the legislative branch of government can unilaterally make. That's going to be up to the executive branch of government working with those departments that's responsible for these funds to determine what clean slate folks are able to start with and what happens as it relates to these fines being implemented. So thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to let you know how much we appreciate you doing your due diligence and also explain to the collective that the tier process that folks are essentially requesting is actually in the legislation. And from my understanding, you amended it based on some of the concerns that was communicated based on the people that's here. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Councilmember Isaiah Thomas, for going on the record with that. I appreciate that. And I appreciate that people are paying attention to how long we've made this process to have voices heard. Thank you very much for your testimony. If the Clerk would call the next witness please.
It's not going to be a long testimony. I just want to say that --
My name is Frank Francisco Rosario. I just want to say that I am completely open to the idea of working with City Council. I want to work alongside you guys. I want to be your friends and I want to make sure that we make Philadelphia safer, cleaner and greener city. That's all. Thank you.
Excellent. Thank you so much for your support. Clerk, would you please call the next witness.
There are no other speakers on the public comment list, Madam Chair.
Good morning. My name is Attorney Joseph Bucharo. Thank you for your time and thank you for your courtesies. Rather than public comment I was wondering if the board or if the Council had considered any similar legislation from other jurisdictions such as Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, et cetera, in formulating the proposed legislation?
Thank you for your testimony. We are taking notes. Thank you very much. Are you done with your testimony?
And I did have a second question: Has there been any consideration as to the constitutionality of the amounts of the fines? It appears that the fines may be excessive in violation of the Federal Constitution as well as the State Constitution.
We thank you for your questions. Appreciate it. It's on the record.
There are no 9 further speakers on the public comment list, Madam Chair.
Thank you. I would like to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. We will now end this public hearing and go into the public meeting. I will note for the record that a quorum of the Committee is present. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Lozada for a motion on an amendment to Bill No. 250213.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I offer an amendment to Bill No. 250213. A copy of this amendment has been circulated to all members of this Committee. I move that the amendment to Bill No. 6 250213 be adopted. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that the amendment to Bill 11 No. 250213 be adopted. All those in favor of the motion will signify by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and Mr. Sham -- okay, yes. So the motion for the amendment passes. And let's see -- sorry. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Lozada for a motion on Bill No. 250213 as amended.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill No. 10 250213 as amended be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 250213 as amended be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. And all those in favor of the motion will signify by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. So in the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. The motion carries. Bill No. 250213 as amended will be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation with a request that rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading at the next session of Council. This concludes the business before Committee on Public Health and Human Services today. Thank you very much for your attendance.
Thank you. (Committee on Public Health and Human Services concluded at 11:00 a.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I, hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence noted are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me in the foregoing matter, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. __________________________________ TANEHA CARROLL