Okay.17 Just one other thing. You had said the18 problem and you had said about the users19 of the Dumpsters are a big problem, but I20 guess, like anything else, isn't, in the21 end, the owner responsible?22
Mm-hmm.25 213 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1
-- to those of5 us who go out and rent cars. When you6 rent that car, you're responsible for it7 while you have it.8
And if you cause10 any problems with it, traffic problems11 and tickets, you get them. If you damage12 it, you get it.13 When we -- we -- our members14 put out Dumpsters, those are in the15 custody of the person who rents them,16 much as we rent a car. To the extent17 that we tell them that they are18 responsible and we train our drivers to19 explain that to the people, we cannot be20 out there every day.21 It's that person who has that22 container, whether it's a roll-off or23 it's a Dumpster, and that's where we24 think that, in conjunction with the City25 214 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 departments, we can come up with2 something collaboratively which would be3 an enhancement of the present system and4 do much more than this the bill in its5 present form would do.6
Okay.7 You might not have a comment on it, but8 you heard about my comment about New9 York.10
What12 would be your feeling about a bill13 like that --14
Well, in New18 York, they collect the commercial waste19 in the center area in the middle of the20 night.21
If you go back23 to when that started, there were a number24 of newspaper articles that Rudy Giuliani25 215 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 had finally cleaned up the city. That's2 because of that kind of thing.3 This bill, with this4 prohibition, is going to exacerbate the5 problem. If anything, it's going to6 exacerbate it.7
Now, when8 you say "the prohibition," what do you9 mean, the time frame?10
Yes, it is. And18 we had talked to the City before about19 this situation.20
Went to a22 hearing, were promised that what we said23 would be considered and they would get24 back to us, but nobody got back to us.25 216 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 And the next thing we know, it's on the2 books.3
Yeah. I4 guess the problem with that, though, in5 all fairness, Philadelphia is a little6 different from New York in that sense. I7 mean, we have a lot more residential8 right on top of businesses, maybe on the9 same floor or the second floor.10 So I guess, in fairness, I'm11 not sure I would want a Dumpster being12 emptied at 1 o'clock in the morning13 across the street from me, you know.14
-- that the18 mixing of residences and businesses in19 New York City is greater concentration20 than it is in Philadelphia tenfold, and21 that problem has been almost totally --22 the problem that you see --23
-- and the25 217 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 problem that our people see, the drivers2 see, and the customers see is almost3 directly related to the fact that those4 businesses cannot be handled properly5 except during those off-hours. The6 traffic -- the traffic --7
No, I'm8 sure, the traffic aside, I understand9 what you're saying there.10
Point of16 information. Does that mean that you17 support the New York style over this?18 And are you saying --19
In the22 time frame. I think he's talking about23 the time frame.24
Time of day,25 218 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 absolutely.2
And3 that's what I was getting at also; it4 wasn't just the time frame, sir. It was5 the whole issue of only having 'em out6 for, I think, the two-hour window each7 evening. What would you think of that?8 I guess that's more for owners of9 buildings, but I'm just wondering --10
Yeah, but the11 problem when you restrict the customer --12
-- and you14 restrict the hauler in terms of when they15 can get there and do it causes the16 problem that we see today.17
Okay. I18 have to point this out. You just pointed19 out how New York did it right.20
Now22 you're telling me New York isn't doing it23 right.24
No, no, I didn't25 219 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 say that.2
No, you3 said when you limit the time. Well,4 we're --5
Okay. So11 you're saying --12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: When you13 say "here," are you meaning currently or14 what's being proposed?15
With the present16 time restrictions that are on the books.17
So you're18 saying basically that the time19 restrictions are the biggest problem; is20 that why --21
'Cause that's --6 the problems are in -- 90 percent of the7 problems you see with Dumpsters are in8 the areas that you've seen in your9 travels around Center City. If you go10 out into the neighborhoods, you don't see11 this problem.12
No, no,13 no, no, no.14 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: No, no,15 no, no, no.16
I don't know17 what --18 (Indiscernible; parties talking19 over each other.)20
In terms of the23 commercial -- and that's what our people24 do. Our people pick up commercial and25 221 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 construction demolition waste. If you2 talk about those, those problems do not3 exist in the neighborhoods.4
And I would5 share with you that such is not the case.6
I don't7 think it is, either. I don't believe --8 and I don't mean this sarcastically, but9 do you live in Philadelphia?10
So, I16 mean, in all fairness, do you really know17 what goes on in the neighborhoods?18
I am in and out19 of the City, sir. I have relatives who20 live in the City we go to visit.21
Well, in24 all due respect, we live here.25 222 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1
I understand.2 (Indiscernible; parties talking3 over each other.)4
I'm just telling12 you what the experience has been with our13 members.14 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I can15 tell you, not everyone is abiding by the16 current regulations.17
Right,18 right.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Because if20 you ever need to get up at 3 a.m. in the21 morning, you're welcome to sleep at my22 house 'cause that's the time that the23 trucks come and pick up the trash from24 the deli on the one side of me and the25 223 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 restaurant across the street. 3 o'clock,2 you could set your clock, they're there,3 which poses a quality-of-life problem4 that we're all dealing with almost on a5 daily basis on our communities.6 Next, please. Yes, sir.7
Good afternoon,8 Chairman DiCicco. Good afternoon,9 Chairman.10
I have a family11 situation that began at 4:30. I'm going12 to excuse myself --13 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: For your14 family, you're excused.15
Thank you very16 much and thank you again for the17 opportunity.18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you.19
We appreciate20 the time.21 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you.22
23 Thank you for the opportunity to present24 comments to you. 3 PWIA represents both the4 publicly held and privately held waste5 companies in the Commonwealth. We are6 the state chapter of the National Solid7 Waste Management Association. 11 I have, on behalf of PWIA,12 submitted written comments. 15 They do contain proposed16 amendments. 23 But I want to say upfront that24 it is the goal of PWIA and its members to25 225 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 work with this committee, with the2 Streets Department, with L&I, and with3 all other appropriate stakeholders to4 build a good ordinance, and we absolutely5 recognize that Bill No. 9 We believe that Dumpsters are10 an important and necessary and helpful11 part of collecting, hauling, and12 disposing of waste. 18 So I'd like to focus on the19 collaboration that we think we can have20 with you and with the Administration to21 improve and optimize this ordinance. 5 Let me say one or two things6 about aspects of this ordinance that we7 support. 13 This ordinance proposes to move14 many of those provisions into one place,15 and we applaud the ordinance and support16 it. 19 I heard Deputy Commissioner20 Williams say something very important21 when he was talking about the number of22 tickets and citations his department23 issues. 3 The Dumpster isn't an owner, it4 isn't a restaurant or a business. There5 are duties and responsibilities that our6 members have and there are duties and7 responsibilities that the user has. 14 That said, as set forth in15 detail in our written comments, we16 believe there are areas that would17 greatly benefit from further18 consideration and careful study. 20 Mr. 11 Medallions. It may be that,12 down the road, using medallions and a13 radio frequency system will be the14 greatest thing since sliced bread. 20 The number-one risk is cost,21 and you heard Deputy Commissioner22 Williams talk about this. 24 The cost in the medallion25 231 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 system is unclear. There are a limited2 number of manufacturers. There are3 questions about what the cost would be of4 the reading devices. 10 This Council obviously well knows that11 you need an RFP process, you need specs,12 you need bids, you need to purchase it,13 you need to service it, you need to14 fine-tune it and get the kinks out, all15 of which there may come a time is16 appropriate to do. 20 Second concern we see with the21 medallion system, as set forth in this22 ordinance, is that it is not always clear23 whose responsibility something should be24 and is. 2 Although the business owner is3 required to get it when they get a4 license, in the event anybody -- Streets,5 one of our companies, or the business6 owner -- sees that a medallion is broken7 or missing, the legislation suggests that8 the responsibility to deal with that9 falls back on the waste hauler even10 though we don't own the medallion and11 we're typically there only a few short12 minutes every couple of days. 20 In particular, medallions have21 been introduced in some narrow parts of22 the waste industry. There's been a pilot23 program in Philly, for example, with24 Recycle Bank. 12 Now, from the industry's point13 of view, we have some concerns about14 sharing competitive information and each15 of us searching for information. 19 We don't agree with some of20 hysterical comments we've seen that "Big21 Brother is going through my trash now22 that there's a medallion," but there23 certainly are questions about that24 information. 6 It is critical that the duties and7 responsibilities of users of Dumpsters be8 separated from those of providers. 11 For example, it says that if12 one of our trucks goes down Moravian13 Street and empties Dumpsters, we are14 required, when we're done, to make sure15 it's clean, to close the lid, to make16 sure it's back in the right location. 23 Well, take the cover.
When you24 see a Dumpster like that on Moravian25 235 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 Street, that is a violation. We don't2 condone it, the business user is not3 using their Dumpster correctly. 6 This business owner should be7 getting tickets from the Streets8 Department regarding an overflowing9 Dumpster 'cause it's in violation of your10 ordinances. 16 You won't get any objection17 from our members to that outcome. 24 There have been longstanding25 236 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 problems with the enforcement system for2 Dumpsters in the City. We are3 frustrated, the Streets Department is4 frustrated, and L&I is frustrated, and5 it's clear that this committee is6 frustrated. 7 Take, for example, graffiti and8 vandalism. It's our property that's9 being defaced. 18 And we often get a string of19 eight tickets on the 1400 block of20 Moravian Street written day after day21 after day after day for graffiti and open22 lids. 24 So we would plead for an25 237 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 improvement in the due process and system2 of enforcement in the City. 8 We would love realtime9 information about whether a Dumpster has10 been defaced or the lid has been torn11 off. But, today, unfortunately we don't12 have that information. 16 Let me conclude. 21 These are tricky provisions in22 the way they intersect. 9 Respectfully, we'd submit that making a10 toter a Dumpster is not the right11 solution. 15 Specifically, we have in our16 comments that we do believe a Dumpster17 should be one cubic yard, up to ten cubic18 yards. They're various sizes. 25 239 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 With respect to toters, instead2 of including the broadening of the3 Dumpster definition to include all of4 those 50-gallon containers, let's all put5 our heads together and think about the6 best way to do this. 8 There are alleys that are so9 tight that it would be safer to use a10 toter. 15 Similarly, if you have lots of16 toters out on the street -- and we don't17 agree with a business that's got 1918 toters out there. But if you regulate19 those, and we are picking them up, we all20 need to think about and consider that21 that's a much longer stop than it would22 be if there was a five-cubic-yard23 Dumpster in an appropriate place. 6 So there are pros and cons to7 all of that, but the devil is in the8 details. 12 We want a solution. We13 recognize there's a problem. We are --14 our clients, our members are experts;15 they do this every day. We enjoy a very16 good working relationship with the17 Streets Department and L&I. 5 We all generate trash, the6 businesses generate trash, and we need to7 get it out of the City. 20 But I would also suggest that,21 you know, it's a fine line. 2 People have a tendency, for3 whatever reason -- and it started years4 ago. They have this issue with keeping5 trash in a container in their yard until6 trash day. 11
Probably not for12 exercise.13 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It happens14 at rec centers and all, and I'm fully15 aware of that, and I think we all would16 agree that you're not the reason for that17 trash -- but for the fact that maybe we18 need to figure out better locations,19 because as long as there is a Dumpster or20 a container that folks understand will be21 picked up on a regular basis, we will22 have those people who have this phobia23 about keeping trash in their yard for six24 days, until trash day.25 243 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 And I don't have the answer to2 that, I don't know if we'll ever get to3 that point, but I do want to go on the4 record and I'm letting you understand5 that I know that problem.6
I understand that7 and I appreciate that very much.8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And the9 only other thing that I'm going to add is10 that, you know, if this bill comes out of11 committee favorably, we do have 240 days12 before it would become law. I think13 Greenlee pointed out that earlier, which14 is eight months.15 That's not to suggest that at16 the end of the eight-month period, if17 there's still some outstanding issues,18 that we could not extend it even further,19 if need be.20 I think the issue for us is --21 and I'm one of the cosponsors, is to get22 everybody in a room to start talking23 serious about -- and hearing what your24 concerns are, 'cause they're just as25 244 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 important to us when we devise2 legislation as it is to you.3 This isn't us versus you.4 We're all on this together. So I just5 want to make certain that you understand6 that.7 And I don't know if you've had8 any conversation with the chief sponsor9 of the bill. If you had, I don't know if10 it's been a while ago or it's been more11 recently, but I suggest that all keep --12 and maybe by passing this bill, it keeps13 everybody focused so that we just don't14 forget about it until after the summer,15 and three months will have passed. It16 really does sometimes get people to be17 more energetic about getting these things18 done.19 So I think we all want to come20 out in the same place, at a better place21 than we are today.22
Yes.23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What that24 is, I don't have the answer for.25 245 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1
Mr. Chairman, may2 I just remark briefly that I understand3 fully.4 And also, we noted carefully5 that the bill, as written, does not take6 an effect -- go into effect for 240 days.7 There's obviously good thought behind8 that.9 Our concern -- and I would urge10 you to consider it -- is that there's11 some things that can be fixed through12 regulations, and certainly, we've worked13 in the past with the Streets Department14 and L&I on regulations that are15 authorized by the existing law.16 But if we move too fast here17 and lock in a major change, such as a18 medallion system, before it's been19 constructed in the best way it could for20 trash service in Philadelphia, we're21 concerned that that would be a step22 backwards, not forwards.23 So, again, we would hope to24 have the opportunity to work on the bill,25 246 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 first, recognizing the urgency of the2 problem before you and your desire to3 move quickly.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I5 understand that, but I also would like to6 point out, there is a -- in many7 communities where we get complaints from8 residents who are being woken in the9 middle of the night, as I mentioned10 earlier, there is also a feeling of11 distrust towards the waste management12 folks, that they just ignore the law.13 We may disagree that the14 hours -- or may agree that the hours are15 not the appropriate hours because it16 actually may take you longer if we17 restricted you at certain times of the18 day. Maybe it's better in the19 early-morning hours. That's, again, to20 be discussed.21 But there's a certain amount of22 frustration with the industry when it23 continually happens. L&I goes out, there24 may be a citation, the problem goes away25 247 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 for about a week. Two weeks later, what2 have you, o'clock, o'clock, 2 o'clock3 in the morning, the noise, the backing up4 of the truck, the beeping sound, the5 smashing of the containers, and all that6 goes on, and it does disrupt the quality7 of life of people that live in the City.8 So, you know, you've got to9 police yourselves a little bit better10 until we come to a con -- a final11 resolution, hopefully, on how to address12 this overall problem.13
We can certainly14 agree that although there is an hours ban15 on the books from 9 p.m. to 7 in the16 morning, and has been for a long time.17 That it is neither fully enforced, nor18 fully followed. I'm not going to sit19 here and tell you otherwise.20 What I would suggest is if it21 were fully enforced, the complaints about22 the waste industry and probably23 complaints to your chambers may increase24 many, manyfold, with hundreds of trucks25 248 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 out there during the rush hour and2 daytime.3 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That may4 be the case, but then it certainly helps5 your case to get what you need to be more6 effective and efficient. It could7 actually work to your benefit.8
And it's exactly9 why we ought to be collaborating10 together, and appreciate those comments.11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: All right.12 Thank you.13 Councilman Greenlee and then14 Councilman Jones.15
Thank16 you, Mr. Chairman. Very, very quickly17 'cause it's a long day.18 On a couple of your points,19 sir, one on the medallion and that whole20 reading mechanism you're concerned about.21 And my understanding is that in the bill,22 as it's written out, it has a certain23 system that has to be used but put in an24 amendment that will give the Streets25 249 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 Department discretion to use other2 possible systems that may work better so3 we're not locked into this particular4 system that's in the ordinance. Just to5 let you know.6 And, again, as the chairperson7 pointed out, we got eight months to deal8 with this to find out what the best9 system is, and that was why Councilman10 Green did that, to give us a lot of --11 give everybody a lot of time to work on12 this.13 On the privacy issue, I got14 distracted for a minute, so I'm sorry I15 lost you a little bit. Right now, isn't16 there -- isn't your -- isn't the17 company's name on the Dumpster? The18 privacy, whose privacy? I'm sorry, I19 didn't catch that.20
Yeah, that was not21 the privacy issue I was referring to.22 And I apologize if it was communicated23 that way.24
No. I25 250 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 probably (indiscernible) it. That's all2 right.3
I simply wanted to4 alert this committee to the fact that5 that, when radio frequency and medallions6 have been introduced in the waste7 industry in a number of areas, that some8 government have been subjected to quite9 vocal objections from their constituents10 regarding the "eye in the sky" and the11 collection of data regarding their12 personal lives.13 I'm not suggesting a strong14 position on it.15
I'm simply17 hoping -- I just wanted to give you that18 information --19
I24 understand that.25 251 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 On the 50-gallon containers2 here again, I hear your objections to it,3 but, I mean -- and I think of one place,4 like our good friends at the Union5 League. I mean, their Dumpsters are6 these 50 gallons. There's bunches of7 'em; there might be 20, 25 of 'em lined8 up on the sidewalk on, again, whatever9 that street is, Moravian Street again.10 So that's why I think the11 idea -- and I think in the bill, it12 differentiates between those used for on13 the right-of-way and those in private14 circumstances.15 So I think that's the reason --16 'cause in essence, they're Dumpsters.17 And in a sense, they are -- in some ways18 they're more of a problem because there's19 so many of 'em, they take up more space20 on the sidewalk, you know? So I think21 that's what -- I think that's why the22 50-gallon issue was brought into the23 bill.24 Just to let you know and --25 252 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1
-- that you5 referred to earlier about the flexibility6 in the medallion system.7
I understood they9 were here today, and I -- we will10 certainly (indiscernible) on the 5011 gallons. Subject to looking at those, we12 they're different items than Dumpsters.13 They present some different complexities,14 nothing that all of us working together15 can't solve, and we would like to16 collaborate with you on that.17
And I18 agree and I certainly agree with19 Councilman DiCicco that, you know, the20 communication and conversation is21 important.22 But I would argue that those 5023 gallons, for all intents and purposes,24 are Dumpsters, the way they're used in25 253 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 many locations of the City.2 Thank you, Mr. Chair.3 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO:4 Councilwoman Sanchez.5
I just6 wanted to add that it is my understanding7 that the industry did submit a whole host8 of amendments that we will review and the9 sponsor will review and that we could10 amend accordingly, both in committee or11 on the Council floor, this bill.12 But I have to agree that13 there -- we have to have a sense of14 urgency with this situation so the15 dialogue doesn't end today. And we are16 definitely, as cosponsors of this bill,17 willing to continue to meet.18 But one of the things that we19 find in legislating is, if you don't move20 the needle and push people to do stuff,21 we don't get the cooperation; and,22 therefore, I am comfortable with moving23 this bill with the commitment from the24 chief sponsor that dialogue will continue25 254 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 both with L&I and the Streets Department.2 And we are all, obviously, as cosponsors,3 willing to look at amendments on the4 floor and, as our chairman said, if the5 time frame needs to be expanded.6 But this is -- you know, when7 you look at the discrepancies about what8 we do and how we regulate this, it's --9 and we know we can't fine our ways out of10 these problems, and we've had this11 discussion as it relates to recycling,12 but we have to change behaviors, and13 people need to know that we are serious14 about dealing with these problems that15 hamper quality of life in the16 neighborhoods.17 And, you know, that's why, when18 you mentioned the issue of the19 neighborhoods, that is a serious issue20 for us in the neighborhoods. And while21 Center City is the place where people see22 it, in the neighborhoods, in our23 commercial corridors, this is a problem,24 so we have to fix it.25 255 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 So I just want you to rest2 assured that we're committed to continue3 to the dialogue; this isn't the end of4 the dialogue.5
We very, very much6 appreciate that.7 And historically, as you all8 know, a Dumpster was, in large part,9 designed to improve upon having trash10 bags on the street and the rodents and11 other problems associated with that.12 And we do needs to work13 together to come up with the best14 ordinance we can.15 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman16 Greenlee.17
Just one18 more thing, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.19 And, again, to be really fair,20 I will say -- and you may not know, but21 for years before I was here, I was22 assistant to a councilman, and we would23 get calls about problems with Dumpsters.24 And in all fairness, the companies, when25 256 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 we would call the companies directly,2 overwhelmingly, we got good response.3 But the problem is, you know,4 we can't do that on every single one, and5 we have to come up with a general policy.6 But I will -- my experience has7 been, the companies have been responsive8 when contacted. I should get that on9 record.10
Thank11 you.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you.13 Mr. Gentile.14
Good evening,15 Council. My name's Lou Gentile. 24 If you think Broad Street, with the25 257 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 rodents now is a problem, you pile those2 bags up like they do in New York City,3 and you won't be able to lift them bags4 without them falling apart. That would5 be a big, major problem. 7 And I -- and in New York, it's8 just -- they don't use the containers,9 but there's piles of trash that are, you10 know, ten-foot high, and it would look11 horrible during the day with the time12 stipulations we have right now. I seen13 it along Arch Street myself. 17 The picture with the toters out18 front of -- that's right near the Union19 League building, those toters are only20 put out there in the morning. 24 That picture's real deceiving,25 258 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 just like this whole slide show is. 6 You know, you want the cans7 picked up during the day, you're going to8 have this till they're picked up. We9 cannot pick up all these cans within an10 hour in the morning. We can't pick 'em11 up in an eight-hour frame as many cans as12 we pick up through the evening. 14 We're going to -- I don't know15 if -- did the City do any types of, uh,16 of, uh, studies on the environmental17 impact or the traffic flow impact that18 this would have with all these trash19 trucks running during the day? Were any20 studies done of the emissions, being as21 the City is looking to be green. 25 259 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 If we're there during the day,2 the standing time of these trucks is3 going to be threefold of what they are4 through the evening. You know, the5 emissions is going to quadruple. The6 traffic flow, forget it; it will be at a7 standstill. 17 I mean, there's no18 communication in this city. They don't19 want to communicate with us. We've been20 trying to speak with them, it's probably21 gone on, three years now. 2 The graffiti. We spend3 thousands of dollars on paints. 6 Guaranteed, they look brand-new. 9 My guys in their trucks have a10 container of paint with a roller that11 they're constantly covering over that12 stuff, putting new stickers on it. 14 I thought we had an anti-graffiti15 program; is it working? 17 But, on the other hand, we --18 picking up during that daytime is -- in19 the neighborhoods, it would be great. 25 261 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 Because they built fancy condos above2 these businesses that have been here for3 years and years right before these4 condos, it doesn't mean it's a5 neighborhood. 8 In other words, they want us to pick it9 up but they don't want to see us or hear10 us. 15 But we're looking to resolve16 these problems. We want to be a part of17 the solution, not a part of the this18 problem. 20 This container that's upside21 right down here, we didn't turn it upside22 down, my guys didn't throw that can over23 or that company whose can it is. 3 That's why that number with4 those outstanding citations is so5 inflated, it's deceiving. Most of these6 tickets are in litigation. 10 But they got to find a way11 who's causing these problems gets the12 ticket, not the hauler because we're the13 ones that are easy to find and that our14 name and number is on the container. 16 You know, we have to get rid of17 this trash. 22 I've been in this business23 about three years now, and every since I24 got in it, I've been trying to get a25 263 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 dialogue with the Streets Department and2 the City and L&I, and I don't get no3 responses. I left phone numbers, cell4 numbers, they could get me 24/7, just5 like these store owners could get me 24/76 when there's a problem, or any of you7 guys8 Like Mr. Green [sic] says, when9 there's a problem and we get a call, that10 can's switched out or painted or11 whatever, new wheels put on it or12 whatever has to be done. We're looking13 to resolve these problems.
16 You know, the medallion system,17 like they said, it could be a good thing,18 but I think it has to be tweaked. They19 got to make sure it's going to work. If20 not, the City's going to have another21 venture that they gets into that's going22 to cost a lot of money and it's going to23 wind up being kicked to the curbside24 again if they don't make sure that it's25 264 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 the right program to go with, not just2 because somebody in another city, like,3 Toronto or something that's container-4 free says it's going to work5 Our city is unique. These6 store owners don't have no places for7 these containers. 8 Places like that Union League, they bring9 them inside; that's why they have the10 toters and not the two-yarders. 14 Now, in most of the new15 buildings, thank God, the regulations16 call for loading docks and trash rooms17 and stuff like that, which is great, but18 this city has been here for hundreds of19 years; we have to deal with what we have20 and try to work around that. 3 And, on the other hand, with4 the containers, we need more containers,5 not less. Youse want to be green and6 recycling. 10 So they're going to need to be11 in different-sized containers. It might12 not -- instead of a two-yard container,13 they might have two one-yards or four14 toters that are different colors for15 commingle, cardboard, paper, you know,16 glass, depending on how green the City17 wants to be18 But they can't say they want to19 be green and then they want these trucks20 out there during the day, putting a lot21 of emissions in our air that you guys are22 breathing walking around City Hall. It's23 not going to taste too good. 4
You're welcome.5 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah, I6 think we understand, and I think it's7 been said a few times that this is a8 process that has begun. There will be9 eight months from now until the end. Or10 maybe not eight months; could actually be11 longer. We will have that conversation.12 But sometimes it takes13 legislation to get everyone's14 attention -- not only on your side but15 our side as well. And that's what this16 is, part of a conversation that will take17 place over the next several months. And,18 hopefully, we'll be able to resolve these19 issues to the best of everyone's liking.20 Councilman Greenlee.21
Thank22 you, Mr. Chairman.23 Very quickly. First of all,24 sir, I understand your frustration at25 267 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 some of the laws. And I'm there.2
One thing5 I will say is, I think --6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You should7 have stuck with pizza.8
I11 apologize if I might be using the wrong12 term, but you pointed to the --13
-- slides16 and said that they were either misleading17 or deceiving; I forget exactly the words.18 I would take issue with that. I think19 that's real, that's real.20
It may22 not be -- no, I think you said about the23 slides --24
No, no. I said25 268 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 about the dollar-amount on these tickets.2 In other words --3
Some of those6 tickets are in litigation.7 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I think8 you mentioned something to the effect9 about --10
No, it insinuates15 that, in other words, we're the cause of16 these containers being like that.17
No, no.18 We --19 (Indiscernible; parties talking20 over each other.)21
All right, I24 understand that.25 269 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1
We're2 saying the problem is there. And I think3 that's the purpose of the slides.4
Not that6 we're trying to blame any one company or7 any one entity.8
But, you10 know -- and the last thing I will say is,11 if I had a dollar for every time I heard12 people come in here and say, "Every other13 city has this but Philadelphia can't do14 it," I'd be a much richer man. I think15 that we have to figure out how to do it.16 Okay, thank you.17
No, it ain't18 that --19 (Indiscernible; parties talking20 over each other.)21
Right. It ain't22 that Philly can't do it; we have to find23 a way we could do it --24
And like I said,5 some of these cities are set up where6 they have the room --7
-- and they can10 these containers out of sight and out of11 mind.12
-- we stress this20 in our submissions. Our clients work all21 over the country. We are not aware of a22 major city that has used medallions in23 scale like you're proposing. That may be24 a great thing for Philadelphia, but you25 271 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 wouldn't want to be the first one out of2 starting gate to trip, so we would really3 want to --4
I'd like5 the first one and do something sometimes.6 Usually we follow everybody's. Maybe if7 this is right -- and, again, we said it8 about a hundred times. Eight months we9 got to try to get it right.10
And we're12 going to try and get it right. But, you13 know, just to say nobody else has done14 it, that doesn't mean it might not be the15 way to go, if we get it right.16
My eyesight ain't25 272 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 too good.2
There3 would be so many things I could get in4 trouble for Bill Green, so please don't5 do that to me.6 (Laughter.)7
Councilman8 Greenlee, what do you anticipate that9 this medallion system is going to do10 besides tell you whose container it is,11 which it's plain as day whose container12 it is.13
Well,14 first of all, it would be easier to15 enforce with the reading mechanism and16 all to be able to find it, you know, find17 out who the owner is, find out if they're18 licensed, and that's a problem.19
-- but24 there's a lot of 'em out there that are25 273 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 not licensed or not licensed properly. I2 talked about the difference between the3 private -- when they're supposed to be4 private and on right-of-way and all that.5
Right. I'm6 looking at all the containers that you7 guys have in the slide show here --8
-- that all have10 whose container it is. I see they all11 have that little sticker on the right12 upper corner there that shows which store13 it belongs to. You know, what I mean?14
Right,18 but the problem -- I think the thinking19 is with the reading mechanism is that you20 would be able to do it faster.21 One of the things that I think22 we here from the Streets Department and23 L&I is just the volume of problems, how24 long it takes to get around.25 274 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 This is -- ideally, if we get2 it right, it's supposed to quicken the3 system, where we can read things and find4 out who the violator is, if there is a5 violation, who they are much quicker and6 get to them much more quickly.7
The problem with8 the violation system is that we don't9 receive these citations in that10 (indiscernible) fashion.11
And that's being18 quick when we get them in four to six19 weeks. In other words, the medallion20 system isn't going to make them move21 faster and --22
Well, I23 mean, that's another thing we have to24 look at.25 275 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1
They got to get2 us on notice quicker so we could get the3 graffiti off the --4 (Indiscernible; parties talking5 over each other.)6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I think7 those are the kinds of questions and8 discussions that we will be having over9 the next eight months.10
Thank you for your14 time.15 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Next two16 witnesses?17
Gray Smith and18 Eric Cheung.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Gray left20 a while ago.21 (Witness comes forward.)22
Good evening,23 Councilman. My name is Katie Edwards; I24 am not Eric Cheung. He had to leave25 276 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 earlier, so I'm here earlier in his2 place.3 I'm here on behalf of Clean Air4 Council, which is a nonprofit5 environmental organization that works to6 protect everyone's right to breathe clean7 air. I'll keep it short and simple.8 As a clean air advocate, the9 Council's concern about a provision in10 the proposed Bill 090123 having to do11 with when Dumpsters can be serviced by12 waste haulers, specifically under13 Sections and of the bill, waste14 Dumpsters can only be collected between15 a.m. and p.m.16 The general practice of waste17 haulers is to collect garbage during18 early-morning hours, when traffic is at19 its lightest. The Council believes that20 forcing trash pickups to take place later21 in the day will lead to increased traffic22 congestion as waste haulers start23 blocking streets during rush hour. This,24 in turn, will lead to increased air25 277 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 pollution from vehicles that are forced2 to idle behind the slow-moving trash3 trucks. This means more smog and more4 soot will be emitted, when Philadelphia5 already fails to meet the federal health6 standards for both pollutants, and more7 greenhouse gasses that cause global8 warming.9 In light of Philadelphia's10 recently unveiled Green Works11 Philadelphia plan to make the City more12 sustainable, the limitation of waste13 collection hours is a step in the wrong14 direction. The Council opposes the15 timing constraints for Dumpster16 servicing, as currently set forth in the17 bill.18 The Council hopes this19 committee will take more time to review20 the sections and looks forward to working21 with the bill's sponsors to improve this22 bill. As it stands, we cannot support23 this bill because of the negative impact24 we feel it will have on air quality.25 278 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 And just to speak candidly, as2 a South Philadelphian like you,3 Councilman DiCicco, I too hear, you know,4 the trash being picked up at the corner5 deli; but at the same time, when I go6 down and I speak to the children in South7 Philadelphia that have asthma and telling8 them, Well, you need to stay inside the9 summer day, you can't go outside and play10 because the ozone levels are too high,11 that's another quality-of-life issue. So12 it's a lose/lose both ways.13 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO:14 Understood. Thank you.15 Councilman Greenlee.16
Thank17 you, Mr. Chairman.18 Again, I said this earlier:19 Isn't that the law now? Now, it may be20 broken, but that's the law now, so I21 don't think we're changing anything in22 this --23
No, it isn't, but24 it will definitely cause -- the more25 279 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 stringent enforcement will cause -- and2 we'd actually like to look and see it3 extended -- extending collection times.4 We've just in the past --5
Well, up6 front, that can be talked about. But as7 the Clean Air Council, what do you think8 about the rest of the bill?9
Well, no comment.10 We'd just like to see much more waste11 minimization on behalf of the --12
Okay. So13 it needs eight months after we get it out14 of here, and you're going to work with15 us; is that right?16
And I have to say20 I know this is a Dumpster bill, but where21 are all of the recycling Dumpsters? You22 know, where is all the paper being23 collected? Where is all of the plastic24 being collected? So that's another25 280 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1 issue.2
And I know that5 commercial recycling enforcement is about6 to be stepped up by the Streets7 Department, and that's going to put much8 more pressure to put out more waste.9
Okay.10 Well, I guess I would like to hear the11 Clean Air Council say -- since we're12 trying to dealing with the environment13 here, be a little bit more favorable than14 just coming out --15
We will work with23 you and we appreciate the intent of the24 bill.25 281 6/3/09 COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES1