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Minutes

Committee Hearing, May 12, 2004

Philadelphia City Council Committee HearingsMay 12, 2004

People mentioned

Names our system found in this transcript. Automatically extracted, so it can include anyone named in the record, not only officials or parties.

Organizations mentioned

Council President Verna

Thank you. And on behalf of all of the Members of City Council, I want to thank all of you for working so hard for the betterment of our communities, and we truly appreciate the countless hours that you volunteer in our recreation centers. Thank you very much.

Mr. Mccrea

Thank you. We appreciate your support as well.

Council President Verna

Sir, are you with the advisory.

Council President Verna

Your name.

Mr. Lewis

Karim Lewis. I have written testimony.

Council President Verna

Mr. Lewis, that will be given to the stenographer. It will be transcribed in full. I would ask you to please, please abbreviate your remarks.

Mr. Lewis

Good day, Madam Chair, and other honorable Members of Council present. My name is Karim Lewis. I am the founder and executive director of the Community Empowerment Network. Today I am testifying against the 131 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET closing of the City's recreation centers and swimming pools, ice rinks, particularly the Baker Recreation Center, located at 55th and Lansdowne and the Rose Recreation Center, located at 75th and Lansdowne Avenue, both from West Philadelphia. After supporting the Mayor in the past mayoral election, believing he was the best candidate for the neighborhoods of Philadelphia, I was disappointed to hear in March that he was proposing to close recreation centers without meeting with community leaders or their respective organizations, particularly with the Baker and Rose Playgrounds. , and in Rose's case, Overbrook Civic Association. Before and during this current Administration, monies provided by the City only covered the cost of one staff person and the utility cost. Volunteers coordinate programs, activities, maintain maintenance, such as cleaning, painting, cutting the grass 132 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET and managing their own security and safety programs at each of these facilities. Because volunteers in these communities run and maintain -- the 19th Police District can testify to this -- neither of these recreation centers has required the Safe Streets program to baby-sit our facilities, thus allowing the 19th Police District to work on designated drug corners, saving the City of Philadelphia millions of dollars in overtime pay. As a former director of community relations for the Anti-Drug/Anti-Violence Network, I can testify how both these centers are models of how the Mayor's Neighborhood Transformation Initiative should work. Neither of these two communities have had a stabbing or a shooting in their respective facilities during this era of the war on drugs beginning in the late 1980s. To cut off funding with no 22 plan is political hypocrisy. From an Administration promoting safe streets and NTI it is punishing those who are doing a fine job. After recently hearing that no money 133 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET would be allocated in the 4th Councilmanic District and now seven of our recreation centers are slated to be closed, as a taxpayer I feel we are victims of taxation without representation. This proposed budget does not save money if crime, drug dealers, blight and abandonment of properties are now given an open invitation to take over our recreation centers. This is exactly what would happen. Closing swimming pools in the hot summer months of July and August is a set-up for a catastrophe. Statistically, our youth are statistically the victims in the perpetrators of violence, particularly homicides, during these summer months when they are most reckless and restless. After a day or two inside the house fighting off 90 to 100 temperatures, they gain excess energy to burn. The swimming pools offer cool relief from the blistering summer heat. The City of Philadelphia has a responsibility to give them something positive to do, or they will surely find something negative to do. Again, statistically, the summer months have been when violence has 134 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET peaked in our City amongst young people. Closing the swimming pools would be a death sentence. These proposed budget cuts at the expense of our children's and youth's lives are a cost that we can ill afford to pay, after years of peaceful activities at these recreation centers maintained by minimum City finances and citizens willing to volunteer their time, labor and money from their own pockets. If a neighborhood fatality would come to Baker or Rose Playground, this Mayor's legacy will be anything but the neighborhood Mayor. In light of our nation's Executive Branch's war-time activities.

Mr. Lewis

A red light goes off whenever I hear a big government making decisions in a vacuum that have a major impact on the citizens.

Council President Verna

Please try to conclude your statement.

Mr. Lewis

Okay. The reason I deem that there is no 25 plan for the closing of these recreation 135 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET centers and swimming pools, in the last five weeks, I've seen five different lists of sites to be closed. Does anyone have a final official list? When seeking how the sites to be closed were selected, no one I spoke to had a direct answer, besides, it's the Commissioner's list. When inquiring about what happens to the facilities, no one has given me a direct response. The Mayor's administrative office I've spoken to has informed me that they're debating about leasing some of the centers to community-based organizations. There are studies being conducted on the feasibility of selling them to private companies run by sports facilities. Additionally, there is consideration to tear them down and sell the properties. But no one has spoken to the advisory councils of Rose or Baker. Let me --

Council President Verna

I'm sorry. You're really going to have conclude your statements. We're really getting so far behind 136 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET time. We have any number of people that still want to testify.

Mr. Lewis

Okay. I just want to say that in the previous Administration, there were other ways that supplemented the Recreation Department. Safe and Sound was a program that under the Rendell Administration was part of the Recreation Department. That supplemented us. Baker Playground is located in the Empowerment Zone. There's no reason that monies can't still be going to this playground. We haven't received a dime since the Empowerment Zone has been in existence. This program had $100 million to be spent over 15 years. One of the benchmarks was to fund some recreation or activities. That hasn't happened yet. So I'm just saying that, you know, the Rendell Administration would jump into the swimming pools in June and have corporate sponsors every year that helped supplement them. This City has not went to corporations to raise the $4 million. They can put their 137 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET logos on fences and gates, the basketball courts, like they do at the sports centers to advertise, and then this would be a tax write-off for them. I believe that with sports teams giving people $15 to $20 billion sign-on bonuses, they have a responsibility to give something back to young people who are athletes, who learn their craft at these sports centers. So I urge Council not to pass this 2004-2005 budget without funding for the 40 recreation centers and swimming pools and 14 five ice rinks. Thank you. 15

Council President Verna

You've got 16 your message over. You can stop. 17 (Applause.) 18

Council President Verna

Thank you. 19 I believe Tiffany Green was next to 20 speak. We really are on time constraints here. So, Tiffany, if you will identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Ms. Green

Tiffany Green. I'm 138 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET representing Smith Playground Advisory Council. I thank you very much for allowing us to speak. Smith Playground has been in our community since 1917. That's a very long time. I decided to come here today to talk from a human standpoint. People say, Tiffany, you're so passionate about keeping the recreation centers open. Why is that? Let me tell you why. Last year we decided to take a corner that had been not used for a very long time, 20th and Tasker. Councilwoman Ann Verna helped me and assisted me in getting the playground clean. The program went on. We had close to 100 boys come out for basketball league. During the middle of the summer, I remember a black mini-van drove up. The children and I had come out early, about 5:30, to clean the glass off the playground. A mini-van drove up, and jumped out was a young fellow about 18, and he unloaded a 9-millimeter gun, and all I heard was children saying, Miss Tiffany, Miss Tiffany. And I told them to get down on the ground. And at that time we had 139 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET been asking for police coverage because we knew 20th and Tasker has always been a hot corner. And we were told that they were understaffed and they did not have the manpower. I say all that to say that we need our recreation centers. Let's talk about the level of violence. I have not heard that, and I have been down here on three different occasions. The level of violence. If you take Brooklyn, New York, it has 2.4 million people and less shooting victims. Yet, Philadelphia has 1.5 million people, and since January 2004 we've had 90 shooting victims under the age of 17. That is very significant. Giving you a little history about Smith, here is an article I pulled back in April 1926 where Smith Pool -- it was written in the Evening Bulletin. Many of you remember that, the Evening Bulletin. And in this article, it states, "Smith Playground awaits in spring, the pool then a real joy." Well, the pool now is a real joy. Smith Playground and pool has been 140 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET utilized by three generations in South Philadelphia since 1917. Smith Playground services one of the largest communities in South Philadelphia, which is comprised of Point Breeze, Wilson Park and Passyunk neighborhoods. The youth member of eight large organizations and six school district schools use Smith. Mind you, none of these schools have an indoor or outdoor pool where the children can learn to swim. We have several new groups who have also started using Smith. That's the Cory Irving Basketball League where they provide free summer camp to over 100 youth, as well as the Mayor's own funded program there, Beacon, who have increased their outdoor activities at Smith Playground, not to mention Point Breeze Civic Association, who has been using Smith for the last 30 years, since the height of the gang war era. Smith plays a significant role in our community. It's apparent that the Smith Playground and pool are not only needed, but also over-utilized by the community in the 141 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET summertime, not only by organizations, but by individual children and adults who use the pool at night. Smith records show that last summer approximately 300 to 500 people used the pool daily, and that Smith's submitted utilization records for the budget cuts are inaccurate. And we do have those records.

Council President Verna

How did you come to that figure?

Ms. Green

We have the records where we went to Smith Playground --

Council President Verna

Will you show me a copy of whatever you have, so it doesn't take any of your time, please?

Ms. Green

Yes, I will you send you a copy of what we have.

Council President Verna

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski.

Councilwoman Krajewski

I'm just curious. Does the pool have the big sliding board at Smith Playground.

Ms. Green

Well, this is the Smith Playground in South Philadelphia, not in West Philadelphia. 142 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Councilwoman Krajewski

It's a different one, then?

Ms. Green

Yes. Because that's a historical site, that can never be touched, the Smith Playground. We're talking about Smith Playground in South Philadelphia.

Councilwoman Krajewski

I was just a little tyke when I went.

Ms. Green

And right now Smith not only offers several basketball leagues, but we also have instituted pickle ball. I don't know if any of you remember pickle pool. Smith is very important to us. Also, in South Philadelphia there's approximately recreation centers. 13 are in 17 white areas and 10 are black areas. And out of 18 the 10, five are proposed to be closed. And 19 these are areas that have a level of high 20 violence. So we need to take a look at that. 21 That is extremely important. 22 I just want to sum it up for you, 23 Councilwoman Verna.

Council President Verna

Please, Tiffany. 143 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Ms. Green

Here's a quick poem by Father Bruce Ritter from Brooklyn. I'm going with the Brooklyn theme. "Our Children Learn What They Live. If a child lives with criticisms, he learns to condemn. If a child lives with hostility, she learns to fight. If a child lives with fairness, she learns justice. If a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world. And if a child lives with nothing, he expects nothing." Thank you very much.

Council President Verna

Thank you. (Applause.)

Ms. Green

Next up I have Trudy Gay from the Wharton Square Park.

Council President Verna

I know that you're here to support all of the other recreation centers, and your name was not on the list. You're jumping ahead of people. I 144 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET would simply like you to identify yourself and just say that you support the recreation centers being kept open in your community.

Ms. Gay

Councilwoman Verna, my name was on the list, but there was a slip-up. I was coming under the name Mike McCrea.

Council President Verna

Your name was on the list, but I don't think your name was on the list. Please identify yourself for the record.

Ms. Gay

My name is Trudy Gay. I'm from the Wharton Square Recreation Center at 23rd and Wharton Street in South Philadelphia. Why I came today is because I wanted to thank you for removing the Wharton Square off the list of closings. That's why I was here.

Council President Verna

We haven't seen the final list, so from your mouth to God's ears. And I will tell you, you do a fabulous job, and there's absolutely no reason whatsoever that Wharton Square should be closed.

Ms. Gay

Thank you. 145 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Council President Verna

Thank you. Again, I'm going to ask you to please be brief. Please identify yourself for the record.

Ms. Brown

Good morning. My name is Tyleen Brown. I am a Philadelphia Alliance youth coordinator and a Chews Advisory Board member. Salutations to the Honorable John F. Street, Mayor or our fine City, to the most Honorable Anna C. Verna, Council President, distinguished Members of Council. I'd like to introduce Ms. Harriet Brown.

Ms. Harriet Brown

Good morning to this distinguished board. My name is Harriet Frye Brown, President of the Chew Advisory Council and founder of the Philadelphia Alliance for Community Improvement, of which I am also the president. I come before you today representing two playground advocate activists, parent, grandparent, community parent and neighbor born and raised here. The alpha of community service began before Council some 20-odd years ago, 146 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET remembering Councilwoman Krajewski offering assistance on behalf of Philadelphia's children and Southern Home Services. Those days were bright, full of hope, as we celebrated the year of the child. Their welfare, their recreation was, what do they need and how soon. The omega seems to say, annul their welfare and recreation and how soon. The omega seems to say, times are lost for our children. Our tax dollars, even from the disadvantaged, have provided brand-new multi-million dollar recreation centers at the southern most part of Broad Street for the boys of summer and autumn that working, middle class and working poor families cannot even afford. Is there a plan for Center City/South Philadelphia that calls for our trusted officials to allow resources to be acquired by developers for townhouses that are inhibited by those who can afford private recreation for themselves? Where lies the future of our children who no longer have summer jobs, who are now subjected to the lures of drug dealing, addiction and violence. Our children look to 147 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET us as providers and protectors, providing a safe haven, an environment of learning, recreation and moral fortitude. I challenge each and every one of us to be answerable to that calling. Say no to leaving our children to wander the streets and swelter in concrete without relief. Say yes to our obligation as caring members of society and keepers of our children's well-being. In closing, Chew Playground is utilized; CAPA track, cross country softball teams, Thomas Jefferson University softball, Kencrest Special Needs, Lincoln Day Care, Arthur School, churches and communities come to Chew for services. Our pool schedule is active, including swim teams. Our day camp is self supportive. Please understand our day care is self supportive, which includes swim time for 40-plus children of working parents. Some of our programs are inhibited from a lack of maintenance and support personnel who are mandated to work elsewhere. Because of personnel shortages, we cannot increase our recreation population and are 148 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET requesting capital improvements for our baseball field, our pool and building. As God watches over us, I submit to you respectfully, Harriet Frye Brown.

Council President Verna

Thank you very much, Harriet.

Ms. Harriet Brown

Thank you.

Council President Verna

Thank you all so very much for coming in to testify. And we appreciate all of the work that you do for the community.

Mr. Mcpherson

The next witness is Harry Harrison from the African-American Museum of Art. And after Mr. Harrison is Ed Gross from the Greater Philadelphia Hotel Association.

Council President Verna

Good morning, Mr. Harrison. Kindly identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Mr. Harrison

Madam President, Members of the Council, other presenters and friends, good afternoon. My name is Harry 149 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET Harrison, and I am president of the African-American Museum in Philadelphia. Many of you have probably heard or read about us in the paper in the recent days, as I've tried to explain to the media why the museum hasn't paid our staff in over a month. In the midst of these institutional crises --

Council President Verna

Excuse me just a moment, please. I just got a copy of your testimony, which appears to be extremely lengthy. It will be given to the stenographer. It will be transcribed in full. If you can abbreviate your testimony, we'd appreciate it. Thank you.

Mr. Harrison

Sure. In the midst of these institutional crises, our doors remain open because we have a dedicated and a loyal professional staff. They cared about their responsibilities, getting the job done before the layoffs and after the layoffs and before the projected budget cuts. My entire staff volunteered to work throughout the crisis, and I commend them from the depths of my heart. The museum doors remain open. 150 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET With the $135,000 advance from the City of Philadelphia, we were able to compensate the staff for full and part-time workers for their previous labor. I came here today with what I believe to be a carefully constructed factual assessment of the reasons why I support an institution such as the African-American Museum makes good business sense. In the days between my preparation of this testimony and today, I've come to realize that support, not at a reduced level, not at the current level, but I've come to realize that we need expanded support. That must be the goal. I am humbled by the enormous show of support from elected officials, community groups and businesses that have rallied to our aid, and of course I look forward to being the beneficiary of their spontaneous contributions. The African-American Museum plays an important role in our understanding of the African-American culture and its relationship to cultures around the world; who are we, where 151 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET we came from, what unites us. These are but a few of the questions that are asked in that only the museum can help us to understand and answer. My board and my staff know that, and that's why we are keeping our doors open in these frightening times. The community knows it. That's why our phones haven't stopped ringing since the stories broke. And I hope when I'm finished today, you know that this City's best hope of bridging the economic divide is through the knowledge, understanding and passion that the African-American Museum brings to the City of Philadelphia. Let me share with you an allegory. In many ways, the evolution of the African-American Museum in Philadelphia can be compared to that of the other woman, a dignified woman who has endured an unsatisfactory relationship with a notable gentleman, the City of Philadelphia, for 28 years. She had been promised many wonderful things during the bicentennial courtship, but those grand plans were never realized. She 152 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET remained hopeful. Eventually, the noble gentleman built her a house, but it was not a home. Yet she remained faithful in her love for the gentleman. She made due. Then the children came, and of course they loved their mother and their noble father. But respect was limited. There was never enough food, and so they become accustomed to the crumbs and leftovers. They had a marginal existence, yet outsiders heard of their devotion to educate and preserve their ethnic heritage, and the masses flocked to meet her. Family heirlooms and histories were freely given, and soon she had amassed over 750,000 objects and documents of high value. Yet the home looked barren. More children came, and the house became overcrowded. Space was at a premium, but the noble father did little to improve their lives. He was content to visit for a short time and enjoy the space that the mother created. Then he would go away again. The children loved their mother and often wondered when the noble gentleman would spend more time 153 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET with the family. Years passed and the woman aged. Still, she remained a vibrant, attractive, fascinating woman. Visitors and relatives admired her. More and more people came to see her and listened to her stories. As time progressed, her noble gentleman became more distant and withdrawn from his children, excusing his lack of interest by saying they were now grown and should be able to care for themselves.

Mr. Harrison

But he forgot that the mother of his children still needed support if she was to continue her work and teach future generations. The City of Philadelphia is well suited to play the role of the noble gentleman, enjoying the attention the museum receives and proud of its accomplishments, the collections, exhibitions and programs, providing a building. Funding is the basic and moving further and further away from active participation and strong support.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Mr. Harrison, how many employees do 154 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET you have?

Mr. Harrison

I have a total of 4 full-time employees. 5

Council President Verna

15 6 full-time and four part-time? 7

Mr. Harrison

Yes. That's right. 8

Council President Verna

And with 9 the funds that were advanced you, will they 10 cover all of the employees up until July 1? 11

Mr. Harrison

Well, we are doing an 12 active and aggressive fund-raising to make 13 sure that we can successfully complete this 14 fiscal year without great distress. 15

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.

Councilwoman Tasco

Thank you. Good morning. How are you? Or is it afternoon? You know, I know about financial institutions and funding. My question that comes to you is, how many members are on your board?

Mr. Harrison

33. 155 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Councilwoman Tasco

Is there any financial requirement to be a board member? Are they required to raise or give any money to the museum.

Mr. Harrison

Their commitment is $1,000.

Councilwoman Tasco

How many of them make that commitment.

Mr. Harrison

I'll say 70 percent.

Councilwoman Tasco

What is the action you can take if they're not coming up to their commitment.

Mr. Harrison

Well, we can ask them to become current or we can ask them to seek other ways to fulfill their commitment. If they're not active financially, they can be asked to withdraw from the board according to the bylaws.

Councilwoman Tasco

How is the board appointed.

Mr. Harrison

Through a nomination Committee.

Councilwoman Tasco

Is the $1,000 commitment a commitment that's in the bylaws 156 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET or can that commitment be changed.

Mr. Harrison

It could be changed.

Councilwoman Tasco

Have you all done an analysis of the board members to see if, one, one continues to be active as board members; two, if they're making their commitment, and just what is their future participation as a board member.

Mr. Harrison

We have not done that analysis.

Councilwoman Tasco

I think that's important because financial institutions want to know first what your board is doing. And I think part of your success could be in trying to identify those board members who have the resources who can serve on the board and be financially supportive of the museum. That will give you some basis to hire the necessary staff to go out and do the fund-raising for you. I know the executive director does that. But having a development officer is very important. So I think that the assessment of board would be most helpful. And then those 157 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET people who are not performing need to go. And you need to ask people to serve on the board who have an interest and a commitment to the museum and then have term limits. Are there term limits?

Councilwoman Tasco

If they don't make their commitments, they just have to go. Because it is very important to the survival of that institution, and also to your ability to reach out to the broader community to gain additional support.

Mr. Harrison

Thank you, Councilwoman.

Councilwoman Tasco

Thank you.

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Councilman Nutter

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for your testimony. I wanted to ask you to put on the record for us, as we did with the Philadelphia Museum of Art and a 158 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET couple other institutions -- you talked in your testimony about the relationship with the City of Philadelphia of some 28 years. Could you explain in a little more detail on the record in slightly less maybe romantic terms what the relationship is between the City and the museum from the start, what it has been, what are the contractual terms and conditions of any agreement that may exist, what funding was provided when the museum was built or created? That kind of information from the start.

Mr. Harrison

Sure. The museum is actually the first municipality African-American structure that was built by a municipality in the country. So in many ways, with the Philadelphia persona, this museum was a first in terms of the way it was constructed. It was constructed with City funds.

Councilman Nutter

So the City of Philadelphia provided funding for the construction of the museum.

Mr. Harrison

Yes. And they continue to support the museum in terms of the capital expenditures and things of that sort. 159 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Councilman Nutter

Is there a lease agreement between the City and the museum?

Mr. Harrison

Yes, there is.

Councilman Nutter

What are the terms and conditions of that lease? What are the City's financial obligations, either from an operating budget or capital expenditure responsibility.

Mr. Harrison

We would estimate around $100,000 in terms of capital.

Councilman Nutter

No. I'm not asking you for the amount. I'm asking you, can you provide to the Chair for us a copy of the lease.

Mr. Harrison

Yes. I have a copy with me.

Councilman Nutter

What I'm interested in is, for the moment, not the dollar amounts, but what does the lease say in terms of the actual obligations by the City of Philadelphia. Do you possibly have more than one copy with you?

Mr. Harrison

No. I just brought 160 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET one copy.

Councilman Nutter

We'll get it copied while we're here. I'm sorry, ma'am. Have you identified yourself? MS. REBO (ph): Excuse me. Yes. My name is Joy Rebo and I'm an employee of the museum. "The undersigned represents that it owns the premises. The undersigned as lessor and the borrower as lessee agree to no 13 knowledge in the event of default as defined in the lease." Forgive me. I'm skipping to try to just pull out certain points.

Councilman Nutter

I understand.

Ms. Rebo

"The undersigned understands that borrower has executed or will be executing a loan agreement in connection with financing. Undersigned acknowledges that the borrower during the term of the lease and prior to the termination of the lease shall have the right from time to time to remove such equipment, personality and trade fixtures. 161 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET Undersigned agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the City of Philadelphia from any and all injuries and damages." And that essentially, other than the signatories, is the lease.

Councilman Nutter

Okay. Why don't we do this. Let me ask you a couple of other questions, and while we're in that Q and A or while you're talking with other Members, if you could maybe give that lease to the gentleman behind you and we can have some copies made. What's the annual budget of the museum.

Mr. Harrison

$1.7 million.

Councilman Nutter

And the City's support has been $300,000, 330,000.

Mr. Harrison

Yes. $300,000.

Councilman Nutter

Okay. And the rest of the funding you've raised from either other governments or private supporters.

Mr. Harrison

Yes. We get about $300,000 from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And the rest is through admissions, earned income and fund-raising. 162 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Councilman Nutter

Then maybe my last question will be, have there been a series of audits over the past few years? And I'm assuming you must have either a chief financial or a development committee, a chair or -- I don't know the entire structure, but I have to assume that you've been having, probably as many other similarly situated facilities, financial problems over the past few years?

Councilman Nutter

It's not just something that has recently happened; is that correct?

Councilman Nutter

And was a plan put into place whenever you recognized or identified that you're having some problems?

Councilman Nutter

Is the plan working?

Mr. Harrison

The plan is working. The funds that we are seeking are coming in slowly. And that creates the distress.

Councilman Nutter

When was your 163 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET most recent financial report?

Mr. Harrison

The most recent audited report was 2002.

Councilman Nutter

Well, where is your 2003?

Mr. Harrison

It is finished.

Councilman Nutter

Are you on a fiscal year or a calendar year?

Mr. Harrison

We're on a fiscal year. Our fiscal year begins July 1 and ends June 30th.

Councilman Nutter

So your last audited financials were from June 30, 2002?

Councilman Nutter

What happened with your FY '03 audit?

Mr. Harrison

The report is done. We have to review it and we have to pay the auditors.

Councilman Nutter

Okay. When was it completed?

Mr. Harrison

I think it was completed in February.

Councilman Nutter

Of this year? 164 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Mr. Harrison

Yes, sir.

Councilman Nutter

How much does it cost?

Mr. Harrison

The final cost is $8,400.

Councilman Nutter

Okay. Does the lack of audited financials negatively impact your ability to raise money?

Councilman Nutter

That's all I have for the moment, Madam Chair. I may come back. Thank you.

Councilman Dicicco

Good afternoon. Mr. Harrison, about a year or so ago, I had the opportunity to meet with some of the folks over at the museum. I don't believe I met you there at that time. I'm not sure if I did. I don't recall .

Mr. Harrison

We did. I had a beard.

Councilman Dicicco

You don't look like the same guy now as you did then. That's for sure. So I apologize. I meet so many people. No disrespect to you. You had a 165 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET beard, so I can understand that. During that discussion I did a tour of the facility. I know the facility has some real serious capital issues to address. At the time there was some leakage in the building and some ceiling that needed to be done. I would hope that some of those things that we talked about were addressed. I had someone from Public Property and/or the Department of Rec with me.

Mr. Harrison

Yes, some of those have been addressed.

Councilman Dicicco

I think also, though, part of the discussion had to do with the facility itself and the fact that the layout, the floor plan, doesn't lend itself to a museum in the manner in which it would be more useful, more user-friendly, if you will. I think there was some conversation about, in lieu of trying to retrofit the building and bring it up to the level of where it would be more user-friendly, that maybe there was an opportunity to look at some other site or sites. Given the financial constraints 166 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET that we're faced with today, it would be somewhat ridiculous to talk about constructing a new building because the likelihood of that happening is remote during this particular time. I'd like to share with you a comment. Think about it. I don't know if it will work. There are some museums that are all struggling in terms of fund-raising and being able to maintain a level of usability, if you will, that maybe there's an opportunity to consolidate some of these facilities into a larger facility where you can subdivide the operations. It may sound like pie in the sky right now, but I think it's something that we need to look at. Again, looking at your facility and the fact that it needs some considerable capital improvements, would it not be better if we can take some of that money that we would put into there and use it at another site? I use Atwater Kent as an example. I spoke to the folks from Atwater Kent. No one wants to hear that. We all like to have our own little turf and individuality, and I can 167 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET appreciate and respect that. But given the finances of the City and where it may be looking going forward, it just becomes every year more and more difficult for us to accommodate all those needs. There may be a building or two in the 1st Councilmanic District or another district where you can joint venture, if you will, consolidate, having your own distinct individuality in terms of what your museum represents, but in a larger building where there may be two museums sharing the space, which would certainly reduce the cost, capital cost, maintenance cost, significantly for your institution. And I'm using Atwater Kent. It could be another institution or institutions. I don't need a comment from you now. It's just food for thought. I don't even know if we could find a building that would accommodate all of the folks that might be willing to do that. But I think it's something we really should be talking about going forward. The Art Museum I know has another 168 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET facility across from their main facility, which was the old insurance company building off of the Parkway. They're going to be using that. There probably is no room in there. But they thought about that. We've talked about using the Art Museum and incorporating some of their exhibits into other facilities that may provide additional patronization of those places. If there's something that the Art Museum has on display that is somehow connected to the African-American culture, why not share some of that with the African-American Museum so that both of you can have some of the patrons that would be coming through your doors, which helps with revenue? Again, just a comment.

Mr. Harrison

I appreciate your comment.

Councilman Dicicco

I'm looking to figure out a way in which we could all at the end of the day keep all of these places open and put less of a strain on any individuals who have to go out and figure out how to raise the money year in and year out. Thank you. 169 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.

Councilman Goode

Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Mr. Harrison.

Mr. Harrison

Good afternoon.

Councilman Goode

What percentage of your budget comes from the City of Philadelphia.

Mr. Harrison

I would say around 35 to 40 percent.

Councilman Goode

What percentage do you believe should come from the City of Philadelphia.

Mr. Harrison

I would estimate at least 55 percent.

Councilman Goode

How long has it been at that funding level.

Mr. Harrison

It's been at this funding level for at least five years and is declining.

Councilman Goode

Are you aware of any request for an increase in funding over 170 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET those five years.

Mr. Harrison

No, I have not.

Councilman Goode

Have you made any request for an increase in funding over those five years.

Mr. Harrison

No. I've only been here three --

Council President Verna

He hasn't been here that long.

Councilman Goode

Why is there not a request within your testimony?

Mr. Harrison

I did.

Councilman Goode

What is the amount.

Mr. Harrison

I didn't put a dollar amount. I did ask for an increase.

Councilman Goode

The question is, if we're funding the museum at a certain percentage, you believe that percentage should be higher. No one has ever made that request. You're here testifying today. I'm asking, is there a specific percentage or dollar amount that you believe the City should be funding and why not offer that as part of your testimony? 171 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Mr. Harrison

I'll be glad to do that. I'll amend my testimony.

Councilman Goode

So you believe the City funding should be what?

Mr. Harrison

55 percent.

Councilman Goode

Of $1.7?

Councilman Goode

Thank you. Thank you, Madam President.

Council President Verna

The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Councilman Nutter

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Harrison, I was a little concerned -- come back to the agreement -- because I thought you said that your budget was $1.7 million, and you get $330,000 from the City?

Mr. Harrison

No. I get $300,000 from the City. $270,000 is being proposed.

Councilman Nutter

It was $300,000 last year and there's a $30,000 cut.

Mr. Harrison

Yes, sir.

Councilman Nutter

I'm sorry. I was 172 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET under the impression it was $330,000 going to $300,000. But in response to Councilman Goode, I thought you said that your present percentage of your budget funded by the City was 30, 35 percent. Was that your answer.

Mr. Harrison

My calculation may be a little off. I can double-check that.

Councilman Nutter

It's more like 17, 18, something like that.

Mr. Harrison

It's more like 17, 18.

Councilman Nutter

And then again when you responded the second time with the enhanced funding from Councilman Goode, you're now suggesting that you'd like to be at the 55 percent level on a $1.7 million budget. All right. The document that you were reading from earlier, when I asked you about a lease -- which has now been copied -- this is a document from January of '03. When I asked about a lease, I was assuming that there was a document back from '76 or so. Do you have any 173 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET other lease agreement with the City of Philadelphia from the time that the museum was created. This document seems to have more to do with a financing or a borrowing; is that correct?

Mr. Harrison

Yes. I looked at it and it said, Landlord Assessment Agreement.

Councilman Nutter

It's a landlord's agreement, but it's about an entity called First County Bank providing financing to you related to articles and items at the museum. But it's signed by the current Recreation Commissioner back in January of '03. What I'm asking you about is a lease or license agreement between the museum and the City of Philadelphia back from the time that the museum was built.

Mr. Harrison

Okay. Council Nutter, I will have to get that for you. I did not bring that with me.

Councilman Nutter

Is there such a document. 174 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Mr. Harrison

I would assume there is.

Councilman Nutter

Okay. That's what I'm really looking for because I want to better understand what the nature is of any obligation that may have been created between the City and the museum back at that time. We've in the course of these budget hearings have had the opportunity to look at lease agreements, for instance, between the City and the Philadelphia Museum of Art; one from, I think, 1928 or 1929, and one from 1968, that lay out in some amount of detail what the City's obligations are to the Philadelphia Museum of Art, another institution that we built and own. So I'm looking for the same kind of document. This one has virtually nothing to do with what I'm looking for. It's something about a financing that you did about 10 years ago.

Mr. Harrison

I will research that and get it to you as soon as possible.

Councilman Nutter

Well, get it to the Chair and the Chair will get it to us. 175 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Mr. Harrison

I will.

Councilman Nutter

Thank you very much.

Council President Verna

The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Councilman Rizzo

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I have that lease at home. I'll get it for you in the archives. I would hope that before we consider -- and I know that relocating the museum is an alternative. But I would hope before we would do that -- the new Please Touch Museum, that would always be an opportunity. I would hope -- and I'd like to hear from you -- if we do everything right, if you do the best you can do and raise the money, do some things that are out of the box and try to go after money that you've never gone after before, do you believe that you can salvage it and keep it where it is? Again, if we can get you the funding that the City should be providing and the state should be providing, that continues, do you 176 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET believe that we can keep this museum at its current location and keep it operating the way that it should operate?

Mr. Harrison

As Councilman DiCicco stated earlier, there are some capital expenditures that we would have to implement in order to bring it up to acceptable museum standards. It was built primarily as a pavilion, not as a museum. And so the retrofit that has taken place over the last 20-some years has been to bring it up to code in terms of the application and standards for museums around the country. So it would take some working, yes, but we could make it happen.

Councilman Rizzo

I'm not talking about an aggressive program to do all of this next year, or the year after. But again, getting stabilized, getting back on track, and then talking about a capital program that could do the things you just described, do you think you can really do that? Based on the few weeks now, the month or so that you're really beating the bushes, do you really think that there's an opportunity to save this. 177 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Mr. Harrison

Yes, sir. I really do believe that.

Councilman Rizzo

Thank you.

Council President Verna

Thank you very much. Mr. Harrison, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming in. Mr. Ed Grose.

Mr. Mcpherson

He will be followed by Mr. Eddis.

Council President Verna

Is Mr. Eddis here? If you would just approach the front so that right after Mr. Grose you can testify. Thank you so much for your patience. We appreciate your coming in. Please identify yourself for the record.

Mr. Grose

Good afternoon. My name is Ed Grose. I'm the executive director of the Greater Philadelphia Hotel Association, speaking on behalf of David Newhart, our president, who had been here on Monday when we were originally scheduled to testify, but who is unable to be here today. Thank you for this 178 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET opportunity to speak with you regarding the re-instatement of budget allocation to the City's arts and cultural institutions. Philadelphia fortunes have long been boosted by such world-class institutions and performance arts such as the Rodan Museum, the Academy of Music, the Philadelphia Opera Company, Koresh Dance Company and the African-American Museum. That fact is more true today than ever before, since jobs in the City economy no longer depend on proximity to manufacturing. Over the past two decades we have seen many corporate headquarters, some through mergers and acquisitions, leave the City. As has been the trend, more and more jobs are created through the hospitality industry here in Philadelphia. We must continue to do all that we can to support that industry and make it as attractive to business, leisure and convention travelers as possible. Philadelphia hotels alone employ about 14,000 workers, and we estimate 80 percent of those live in the City of 179 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET Philadelphia. Our region's cultural assets are one of the top three reasons why businesses relocate here, according to a Gallop survey reported last year by the Arts and Business Council of Greater Philadelphia. Among those top three reasons was overall quality of life, which I am convinced is strongly influenced by our rich atmosphere of history, tradition and cultural achievement. We have the best Convention Center in the country, with just about every major brand of hotel offering rooms for every traveler's budget, special needs and most within easy walking distance of the Center. Few other cities can say that they have more than 10,000 hotel rooms in an area that offers all of this and some of the most amazing restaurants in the world, from five star gems to South Philly's finest. But even with all of this and proximity by air, land, sea or train, our hotels are seeing about only a 66 percent occupancy rate this year, with a possible dip projected for next year. We have seen that dip 180 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET hit the bottom lines of other industries, including our office building market, restaurants -- some closing forever -- and some hotels converting into residential units. What hurts one part of the travel and hospitality business hurts all of it. Why at this critical time would we do something that can only hurt the image and attraction to the City by cutting the budget for our cultural and arts organizations, which are so much a fabric of our history and appeal? A study conducted last year from the Travel Industry Association of America and Smithsonian Magazine shows continued and growing interest in travelers' desire to experience cultural arts, historic and heritage activities. We are talking about 81 percent of US adults, or 118 million travelers, that are considered historic, cultural travelers. Even if we are to believe that the future for cultural institutions is that they must learn to rely on less and less public funding and more on private support, how can we in 181 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET Philadelphia consider such a severe cut at this time? Why at a time when millions of dollars in advertising is being spent through our convention, travel and tourism agencies, which emphasize our arts, history and cultural institutions as a big attraction would we consider cutting the budget for our cultural venues? Who has not seen the ad with Philadelphia's own Kevin Bacon touting the arts and culture of his hometown?

Mr. Grose

Even the state's new ad campaign hits the historic, ethnic and cultural appeal the state has to offer, and that includes Philadelphia institutions. Travelers, according to the study I just mentioned, often are influenced to select their destination choice by a specific history or cultural event or activity. Four in 10 added extra time to their trips specifically because of the historical and/or cultural activities. If business travelers extend a stay to take in a Monet, a Philadelphia Orchestra concert or visit the Mummers Museum, it means that they extend their stay in the 182 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET City, will dine in our restaurants, rent cars, buy newspapers, shop and sip coffee at mini cafes. If getting our share of this segment of travelers' time were not so important, our individual hotels and room tax dollars used to market the City would not go into hotel packages developed in cooperation with the GPTMC or Convention Bureau when the Art Museum has a Monet exhibit or the flower show is held at the Convention Center. Last year alone, visitors here to see the Digascio spent $3 million in our hotels, while direct economic impact to that same show brought in $27 million to the City. More than any other industry its size Philadelphia's non-profit cultural industry provides a major competitive advantage for the region. The area's reputation for world-class arts and culture helps define our image and adds significant value to regional companies. Our non-profit institutions provide irreplaceable value for the region. They create an image of quality and creativity, which is the foundation for knowledge 183 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET industries of the future. They foster sensation of achievement and reverence for excellence and help companies recruit and retain talented workers. They boost the region to a leadership position in the growing cultural tourism market and enhance and bolster the area's extensive for-profit cultural sector. Philadelphia was prominent in the 1700s as the largest City in the western hemisphere, and is now recognized as America's seat of history. Greater Philadelphia's non-profit cultural sector is a $300 million industry with more than 5,500 direct full and part-time employees. The economic impact for the five-county region supports an impressive $564 million in spending, more than 11,000 jobs, combined annual compensation of nearly $200 million and more than $10 million for the state and $6 million to the City from income and sales taxes. Across the region, other regions have recognized the strong economic value of cultural and the arts by developing ways to 184 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET financially support their institutions of greatness. Regional business leaders in Charlotte raise $4 million a year from Workplace Giving Campaign in support of the Regional Arts Council. Corporate leaders in Silicon Valley raise $12 million for endowments that provide ongoing support to cultural organizations. Denver raises $22 million annually for their arts from a dedicated regional sales tax. Since it began in 1989, attendance at cultural institutions have grown by 39 percent and total income has climbed by 99 percent. How does the City's reputation for world-class arts and culture translate into economic growth? The ultimate goal in economic development is to become a hot City, a name that is known to every recruiter, business analysts, and journalists as a great place to live and work. Harvard economist Rosabeth Moss-Canter (ph) says companies increasingly view their home cities as show places. 185 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET In larger companies, top managers and professionals are recruited on a national and international basis. Companies need to make sure their home city has maximum amenities and minimum problems in order to compete for talent in the global market.

Mr. Grose

Economist David Birch (ph) reported that regions that can attract workers will naturally attract companies. A region that supports artistic creativity is more likely to support the kind of risk-taking attitudes prevalent in the entrepreneur economy, he said. It's obvious that we cannot chase smokestacks in our search for job growth. Instead of giving large grants or tax breaks to lure companies here, regions with an eye towards the future are focussing on improving their existing public assets. The economic development goal should be to make this region as attractive to conventioneers, tourists and meeting and relocation planners as possible. Let us find a way to help our cultural, historic and arts venues to stand on their own so that they can continue to be a 186 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET magnet to attract meeting planners, convention and leisure travelers to the City, not cut off their funding when they're so much a part of our fabric of our City. Hurting them at this time hurts all Philadelphians.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Again, I want to thank you for your patience. I know that you were represented on Monday, and I can tell you that I truly believe that the greater majority of the Councilmembers truly concur with your assessment, that it's very important that we continue to fund the arts and cultural institutions. As you said, it actually has a domino effect. We concur with your assessment and we're going to work very hard to try to correct this issue. Thank you so much. .

Mr. Grose

Great. I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Mr. Mcpherson

Mr. Eddis.

Mr. Eddis

Good afternoon.

Council President Verna

Kindly identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. 187 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET

Mr. Eddis

Bob Eddis, president of Philadelphia Lodge 5. I'd also like to introduce the gentlemen that are here with me today. Joe Coyle, Gene Blackman, and Kenny Rox (ph).

Council President Verna

How do you do?

Mr. Eddis

Madam President, Councilman Rizzo, on behalf of our members, we'd like to come to you and explain to you a little situation that we have when we review the budget. We never see that the City employees are included in it. And we see at the time that the City is trying to make great decisions because we know we're at a key point that this has to also be looked at. We look at the history. We look back at 1992 when the City was in the same strife and we see the price that was paid. We see it was the Philadelphia Police Officer who took the $6,000 pay cut. They've never been able to gain that back since that time. We believe very strongly that we're 188 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET a world-class City and we need to continue along that way. We don't see that happening as a result of libraries, health centers and the Mounted Unit in itself being closed down, unless the people are out there themselves seeing the services that are performed. I apologize for my casual dress today, but this as a result of my most enjoyable day, which is Wednesday. I get to go out and ride with the officers and be able to relate to the officers and also talk to the community to see where the interaction is going, to see what the real quality of life issues are and how they feel in regard to that. As we go around, a lot of times we're viewed in a different light and different people based on different parts of the community, but the one thing that everybody is seeing now is that we feel strong in where we're going within this community and we want to be a part of it. We also feel that our officers need to be able to be in a position where they're going to be able to be 189 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET compensated for the work services. When people came up here earlier in regard to talking about the news and the press and seeing people hurt, we're the ones that unfortunately have to deal with that price. Our fear is that these empty playgrounds become crime scenes. Is this where we're going to carry our children out of this summer? When we talk about injuries, I think we're qualified to speak in that regard because 800 police officers a year get hurt. We find it very significant that here we are in the middle of National Police Week standing here trying to explain the necessity in order to be able to keep the quality of life in our City to make sure that everybody knows the significance of where we're trying to go. I promise you I'm going to keep this within five minutes because I respect the other people who have to come after us, but we just feel strongly that there's certain points that we have to make. As we said, in regard to any time there's a decrease of something, 190 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET something always has to be removed. We know that. You can't take away a tax without removing something in the process. We believe that there does need to be change; however, we just feel that now may not be the time because of the situation we're in. Sure, it's important that our economic growth continues, that businesses continue to come to the City, but what's the City? Where are we going to be? What's the quality of life for the people every single day when they don't have the availability to be able to go and take advantage of the libraries? I sit in a unique situation right now. I have a 19-year-old daughter who's currently up Seton Hall in special ed and speech pathology. And I'm asking her, are you going to come back to the City of Philadelphia? She said, dad, I can't. I don't want to raise my family there. I said, why. She said, I don't feel as if it's safe. She didn't say anything about the business. She didn't say anything about that. I didn't ask her to give me the answer I want. 191 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET I just feel that we need to keep our City safe. We need the support of Council as we have always had in the past. We strongly respect the significance of the role that Council plays.

Mr. Eddis

We also know that the officers that we have in our City deserve to be considered, because during the last years, 9 last 20 years, last 25 years in this City, we 10 always hear, we can't do this because of 11 budgetary reasons. 12 We saw in the beginning of this year 13 where Council was able to receive a raise. We 14 never came out against that because we saw for 15 the last 10, 12, 15 years, Councilmembers never received a raise. So we're not just going to be out there banging drums and screaming. That's not our approach. Our approach is to try to send a message that we need to be able to have these things on track, but we have to look at it to say, is the timing right now? Is our City where it should be? Unfortunately on February 11th -- fortunately, I was with my wife up in New York 192 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET City. Unfortunately, I turn on the television after returning from St. Pat's Cathedral -- it was my wife's 50th birthday -- and low and behold, there we have on the news about a young man being killed at 23rd and Cambria. And the question I asked is, if it was 1974, if it was 1984, if it was 1994, if it was 2004, why did it have to be 23rd and Cambria? Nothing has really changed that much in the area quality of life. Business is very important. But our most important asset is the citizens of this City, the children of this City, and I know that the Council people feel that way, and am just imploring you with this time to take a strong look prior to making any cuts to see what the long-term effects would be for the quality of life for the people who live here, who stay here and who love this City. Thank you. )

Council President Verna

Thank you. I just want to ask you a question, if I may. You mentioned about the mounted police. When the Police Commissioner was in 193 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET here and he was talking about the elimination of the mounted police, I think I questioned him what the saving would be. And he indicated it would be a saving of $700,000. Somebody told me they heard on television that the saving was more like $20,000. Do you have any knowledge of that? And do we still have the mounted police, or are we waiting until this budget goes through to decide whether or not the mounted police would continue?

Mr. Eddis

Unfortunately, the Mounted Police Unit is being disbanded, and the process has already began. From our numbers, calculations, we're told approximately it's a savings of $400,000. And our question is, if we're going to be a world-class City who spends millions of dollars to try to bring in events -- work one parade, one Flyers parade, and see the advantage in the lives that are saved as a result having that horse.

Council President Verna

We may have bicycles, but what would happen to the former Commissioner with the bicycles? Didn't 194 05/12/04 - WHOLE - '05 OPERATING BUDGET he have to come in from out of town to go to hearing a couple weeks ago?