Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm intrigued by some of the questions that have been raised. And I wanted to just put a couple things on the record. Councilman Clarke is absolutely correct, that the City has fared well with regard to current... many large current businesses that are in the City. 376 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget We read press stories about some of the retention efforts. I think he's also right. We don't know why many of the companies decided to do what they have done, although we're very happy about it. I think that, at least as members of the City Council, if not the general public, should, though, not have to rely on possibly be a fly on the wall when it comes to the utilization of public tax dollars, and have a better sense of just what the incentives are that are being put on the table. We did learn the other week that at least one company, the City was prepared to renovate their offices which is an interesting incentive to offer. But we actually don't know what incentives were put on the table. But as happy as we could be or should be about retaining the companies that we have, in recent times I don't recall hearing about any new companies coming, and any that have in the past 377 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget couple years have also sought significant relief from our overburdening tax structure here in Philadelphia. And so we end up usually buying the business to come into the City. We've also had -- And it was mentioned a couple times by different people. This Council has approved in excess of some odd tax 10 increment financing districts which, again, 11 are an effort to deal with an 12 out-of-control tax structure. 13 Even with that tool available to us, 14 only ten of them have actually come to 15 fruition. We have, I think as Councilman 16 Kenney mentioned, Keystone Opportunity 17 Zones. 18 What are they about? They are 19 relief from an overburdened tax system. 20 Keystone Opportunity Improvement Zones. 21 Same thing. 22 And I guess if our property tax 23 situation was as bad as we might suggest 24 that it is or that the counties around us 25 have, then I guess the Governor's tax 378 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget reform package would have those dollars coming for property tax relief, as opposed to wage tax relief which is what it's for. And I assume that we would like to utilize those dollars for that purpose. So, with regard to the other concern about the property tax situation, I think Councilman Kenny has laid that out. It's not like just because values go up, there is an automatic requirement that there be some X percentage increase or some exorbitant increase in a resident's tax. As long as this Council is in business, it has the right to determine rates, and pretty much on an annual basis decides how much real estate tax revenue we're going to raise from the citizens of this City. So, I'm just left, I guess, to suggest that all of these factors are within our jurisdiction and control. But every step along the way, every complaint that has been made, especially from business if not from residents, does have 379 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget to do with the tax issue here in Philadelphia. There's no other City, I believe, or county in this Commonwealth that has a wage tax, none. Most of them do have property tax systems that are somewhat spiraling out of control which is why they've been demanding property tax relief, while at the same time they eat our lunch on a pretty regular basis for the landing of new businesses who want to be near Philadelphia, but many of which don't necessarily want to be in Philadelphia because they can't make the numbers work for them. So, we can continue to try to do tax increment financing. We can continue to try to identify even downtown locations that are, quote unquote, blighted, in the heart of Center City. We can try to do any set of programs, ideas and schemes that we like.
We cannot escape the fact that our tax structure is out of control, the City is 380 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget overburdened with it. And until we have a complete overhaul of our tax system, it may not matter that much that we have to negotiate these deals on a deal-by-deal basis, as opposed to leveling, to the extent that we can, the playing field, managing through the tougher times, as recommended by both the Tax Reform Commission and the 21st Century Review Forum. No one has ever said that there won't be challenges with this; but, you know, that's why we've the jobs that we have. And that's the challenge of leadership in being in public service. I just wanted to put those comments and thoughts on the record. We have to do something. And I think rather than trying to pretty much scare people to death about it, if we actually came up with some ideas and some programs that were of a longer time horizon, then in the next few months or even the next couple years, the City might 381 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget actually work its way out of a very bad situation that's been going on for some time. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, I just wanted to get a little clarity on where I am. I don't believe that we can continue to do things the same forever, right. I clearly understand the problems associated with creating new jobs and the problems associated with maintaining jobs. And I understand the problems associated with the perception of the School District, and other issues; and crime, the safety and violence in our communities. We have to do a lot of things differently. All right? But my discussion at this point with this particular witness is centered on a 382 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget recommendation by the Tax Reform Commission. And my colleagues had suggested that there is no requirement or we're not obligated to do anything. And that may, in fact, be true. But the reality is and the recommendation by the Tax Reform Commission, the budget-based property taxation recommendation is that it says the Mayor and City Council to determine annual real estate tax rates... Let me start from the beginning. The Commission recommends creating a system of budget-based property taxation by legislatively obligating the Mayor and City Council to determine all annual real estate taxes, rates, after setting the budget and reviewing assessments, thereby maintaining a stable revenue stream under the control of local government. Now, that tells me that on the budget process, if we're putting together a budget, with all of the various sources and 383 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget categories, if there's a shortfall in revenues associated with business tax and wage tax, then it has to be made up by the real estate tax.
Excuse me, Mr. Crawford. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Councilman Clarke, I appreciate your concern about that particular provision. I think, as you well know, the Tax Reform Commission put together their report. Their recommendations are in a document. I introduced these bills. I asked them to give me their bills on a disk. I didn't change a word, a comma, or a period. But I think you also know from Monday's hearing, notwithstanding my sponsorship of the legislation, I asked... And I think both of us asked similar questions on Monday. And I think I shared with you that I 384 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget have my own concerns about that. And probably the best way to deal with that particular issue, notwithstanding the Tax Reform Commission recommendations which, you know, we're also not automatically required to adopt, is that that particular provision should more than likely be amended, so as to not have this last amount of money to fill a budget gap automatically determined by almost fiat of a piece of legislation that says, you fill the gap automatically with real estate taxes, as opposed to, I think, a more affirmative process that is similar to what we have now, that says if you want to derive $438 million worth of real estate tax, which may or may not be the number in the current budget, but it's up in that neighborhood, then once you know what your total assessments are, you determine what your tax rate is based on how much money you're trying to generate, which is what most municipalities do. So, I mean, I'll be the first to 385 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget say, as I've said publicly, there are some who believe that, you know, somehow you have to be for all 13. I don't support that proposition. That is a dereliction of my duty as a member of City Council. And I don't necessarily believe that every individual component of each of the TRC bills has to be followed as if it's dictated to us. That's one way of doing it. I believe, actually, I have another way. But I didn't write the bill. So I just wanted to at least get that on the record, that we're probably in agreement on that particular issue.
Councilman -- Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Crawford. Go ahead.
Just to respond to Councilman's question, I think you're absolutely right about how that would work. And I want to -- I want to point out that the tax subcommittee of the 21st Century 386 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget Review Forum did not endorse that recommendation. That was the one out of 28 that we said no. The tax --
-- subcommittee of the 21st Century Review Forum, which reviews --
What does that have to do with the Tax Reform Commission?
We were charged with reviewing the work of the Tax Reform Commission.
And I sat on that tax subcommittee. And that committee voted four to one against recommendation seven --
So if you're looking for somebody to defend that, you don't look -- don't look to me because I voted against it. The tax subcommittee endorsed all of the recommendations of the Tax Reform Commission except that one.
Okay. So, who are you... Because I know you're the Council's consultant. Now, who's consultant are you --
I am Council's consultant. E-Consult has been retained to advise City Council, and there's a --
Before that we worked on tax policy with the Controller's Office. We provided support to the Tax Reform Commission. And then I personally was appointed by the Mayor to serve on the tax 388 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget subcommittee of the program evaluation committee of the 21st Century Forum Review.
And we were charged with looking at what the Tax Reform Commission had done and offering our opinions.
So when I was testifying Monday, I -- I -- I pointed out that the -- that that tax subcommittee endorsed 27 of the 28. The one we voted against 4 to -- and I'm with the -- is 21 the one that concerns you. 22
-- that's 389 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget wonderful.
I didn't mean to give an exhaustive list of your concerns, but --
Okay. Just wanted to be clear. In Volume III in the chart, , it talks about potential increases in revenue, and it talks about tax revenue -- wage tax revenue change, gross receipts revenue change, and property tax revenue change. In the chart, earlier you referenced the potential slow growth in revenue change as a result of the proposed -- And I know 390 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget you're now telling me that you don't recommend certain aspects of the budget-based system. In year five there is... potential -- Let's see. in first year, 7 24, 42, 67, 92. Do you attribute that 92 8 meaning a revenue change solely to a 9 decrease in values or do you attribute it 10 to increase in changing rates? 11
Yeah. That is entirely attributable to increases in value and increases in new real estate development. It is -- It is based on the assumption that the effective property tax rate remains where it is today.
So five years out, because of the stimulative effects of all these tax changes, you've got the existing real estate is more valuable and there 391 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget should be additional real estate development, so that the real estate tax base will have grown to the point where, with the current effective tax rate, you can realize an increase of $92 million in --
So, do you have a sense -- And I know this is some level of detail -- of what percentage will be -- can be attributed to new development, and what percentage can be attributed to existing real estate?
No, I can't. The data... I'm not aware that the data exists that would allow you to break that out. I mean, what we -- what we -- This is based on our analysis offer the history of tax rates, and the total value of the real estate base. And we don't have data to tell us whether it's -- whether it's new development or increased value.
So, I don't see a way 392 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget that that could be done. Certainly there's no way it could be done easily.
Well, how do you get the total if you don't know the pieces?
Because we have historical data on the total. We have historical data on the total value of real estate in the City of Philadelphia. And we know over time how that --
So is it your assumption that the growth in new construction and the increased values of existing property get you to this number?
So your assumption is that the growth in new construction, new properties; therefore, new real estate revenue, will be similar over the next five years, and --
We really don't know the mix. Part of it -- Part of it is going to be an increase in value of the stock that's there today, and part of it is going to be new -- new -- new development. And -- and I don't see a way -- I'll think about whether I can come up with a way, but I don't see a way to break that out. The problem is, we don't really have a good history that would allow you to look at those two components.
And maybe I can clarify. What we have is historical data that goes back over decades on the total value of real estate in Philadelphia. That's the property tax base.
We know how that has grown over time. We also know how property tax rates and wage tax rates and business tax rates have changed over time. Okay? Well, the starting point of all our calculations is to look back at the history and get a feel for how the property tax base changes when tax rates change, how they've changed in the past. When tax rates have changed property, property tax rates have -- property -- the property tax base has changed. By looking at that pattern over time --
Excuse me. Not to -- What about interest rates? Do you think that has any effect on...
Interest rates are 395 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget not likely to have an impact on this analysis because, as I explained earlier in my initial testimony, the... we've done all of our analysis looking at Philadelphia's share. So, we have looked at the value of Philadelphia real estate as a total -- as a percentage of national real estate. To the extent that interest rates are going to change the value of real estate, they're going to -- they're likely to change them in Philadelphia pretty much the same way they changed them anywhere else in the country. So that Philadelphia's share of real estate value should not move much at all in response to changes in interest rates. That's one of many issues that --
My question is -- 396 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
Yeah, but my question... And if I didn't communicate it to you correctly, it centers more around the increased revenue that you project. So, over the last couple of years interest rates dropped. We got, as it was quoted in some document somewhere, a windfall to the City because of increased values and subsequently increased tax bills. Does that play into this at all or are you not looking at --
-- because at the very first step we say, we're not looking to look directly at the value of Philadelphia's property. What we're going to do is look at that --
-- as a percentage of national. So, anything that would affect 397 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget values nationally, like interest rates, is washed out of the analysis, which is a good thing because we're trying to isolate the effect of Philadelphia's taxes on its share of real estate. So things like interest rates are not going to contaminate this analysis.
So you -- So when you've done your -- When you did your analysis, you did it solely on prior years. And I know -- I think a member from your company was here Monday --
Is that what you're talking about? 398 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
So, over the last ten years, as you -- as you analyze the real estate taxes in Philadelphia, does that get you to this projection? I mean, did we have a similar increase in real estate revenues over the last period of years that --
I would have to go -- I would have to go look at the -- I would have to go look at the data. We did not focus on... We did not focus an analysis just on the last ten years, so I'd have to look at the data to answer what I think you're asking me, which is -- is there something different about the last --
-- I'm trying to 399 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget get a --
-- sense for where you get the 92 million projection. And you said you've done an analysis of the history -- of the history of the real estate --
-- that we have -- you have similar increases in real estate --
Yeah. Part of it -- Part of it... Of course, we're talking about going the other direction. We have a... To the extent we have a history of changes in tax rates, it's mainly been increases in wage taxes and business taxes. So, we look at how values go down when tax rates go up. Then what we do is flip that over and say, okay, now if we go back down to lower rates -- 400 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
-- there's another equation. It's not really the history of what --
It -- It -- It's -- It's what goes up must come down. There's very good reason to believe that the patterns that you see as -- as tax rates are going up are very likely to be undone as tax rates come down. It's -- It's the same economics. It's just --
I'm saying, that just adds another level of speculation. I 401 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget mean, earlier you said you looked at the history of Philadelphia. And I assumed that it was -- you know, you got this number based on the increase in property values over some period of time. But then you just assumed that over the next five years you'd have similar growth. but now you're saying it's based on the potential of the decrease in wage and business taxes, and then subsequent effect on the real estate taxes.
Could be great speculation, possibly; but I'm saying --
You know, you've got a 50-year history of tax rates and property values. And during that period there is lots of variation in tax rates and lots of variation in property values. The standard approach to those kinds of problems is to look at those patterns and try to use those patterns to make projections into the future.
Mr. Crawford, would you make yourself available to any and all Council members who have questions?
Do you know how to contact Mr. Crawford, Councilman? 403 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
Madam President, I have no problem with that, but sometimes, you know, it's better --
I'm not suggesting that Mr. Crawford would give me a different answer in a private meeting, but sometimes that discussion needs to be in the public debate.
All right. We just have people that have been waiting here.
Madam President, my phone number is at the bottom of my testimony, and I welcome phone calls from any members.
Thank you. Councilman Nutter, do you have any further questions? 404 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
No, I don't. Actually, I think there are some community members who wanted to get on.
Any other questions or comments for Mr. Crawford? (No response.)
Mr. Crawford, thank you very much. We appreciate your testimony.
East Mount Airy neighbors. We have a commitment that they will all come up to the table. We will have one spokesperson. And I am told that they will be very brief. Good evening. Thank you so much for your patience. I know that you've been here for quite a while, and we appreciate your staying. Identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. 405 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
Yes. Good afternoon, Council President Verna and City Council members here today. My name is Aldustus Jordan. I'm testifying today with my fiance Keisha Hegamin, and on behalf of the East Mount Airy Association of Neighbors. Really, briefly, for the record, I want to give folks the opportunity, since they came out on this hot day and waited for several hours, to just briefly introduce themselves, and then I'll move forward with my prepared testimony.
Elvira Evans, President of Pleasant Playground Advisory Council.
I'm a resident of Mount Airy, currently a university student and athlete, holder of City record for pole vault, and got my start in the Philadelphia recreation system. 406 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
Good afternoon. My name is Jill Ann Coleman, and I represent five generations and over 40 years in East and West Mount Airy.
Howdy. I'm Lou Incognito. We're parents of five, grandparents of eight. Happen to be second vice president of East Mount Airy Neighbors, and we say, I say, don't cut business taxes. You'll hurt our City.
Okay. The closing of the Pleasant Recreation Center and others like it across the City raises grave concerns about the prospects of raising a family in our community. And it sends a message that Philadelphia is not fully committed to encouraging young families like Keisha and I to remain in the City and raise our children. Many of us live a few blocks away from Pleasant Playground and Recreation 407 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget Center. Every day we walk or drive past and see fathers teaching their children how to play baseball, dozens of young men playing basketball. At certain times of the year we can hear bands and drill teams practicing. We cannot imagine a day when these sights and sounds are no longer part of our neighborhood. The Pleasant Playground is the only recreation center with a pool and tennis court in East Mount Airy. For decades children and families have relied on the services at the center, to ensure that the young people of Mount Airy have the critical social and educational outlets necessary for them to grow into healthy young adults. For a City and an Administration that boasts of bold initiatives for transforming neighborhoods and ensuring safe streets, the proposed closing of recreation centers is simply unacceptable. The bottom line is, if this City is willing to invest $5 million in the 408 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget Convention Center, $1 million for the Chamber of Commerce, and $6.8 million for the maintenance and upkeep of a sports stadium, then it can find the same amount of money for the maintenance and upkeep of the recreation centers that support our City's young people. (Applause.)
In a year when the City is healing from dozens of violent young deaths and a few short weeks since thousands came together to March in North Philadelphia to renew its commitment to our young children, it is disheartening that this Administration would consider eliminating critical resources that provide our youth with a safe and healthy environment to grow and thrive. In closing, we strongly urge the City to reconsider closing of Pleasant Playground and the dozens of others across the City that provide a vital service to our children and families. And for the record... For the 409 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget record -- I believe you have them already, Council President, we have a petition.
More than 1,000 residents within the East Mount Airy community, that is standing strong in saying that we need to invest in our young people, and invest in our recreation centers, and invest in youth development here in the City of Philadelphia. Thank you.
Thank you. Councilwoman Miller, do you have copies of the petition?
I'd like to just take this opportunity to thank the residents of East Mount Airy and the surrounding area for coming in, and to express their opinion in opposition on the closing of Pleasant Playground. And we're all in the same page. We 410 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget don't all -- We also don't believe Pleasant Playground should be closed. There are activities going on there. We've done a lot of work and have put money into Pleasant Playground. And I'd like to say that we will do everything we can to keep Pleasant Playground open. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you all for your patience. You were very patient waiting. Is Mr. Schwartz in the room? (No response.) What I would like to do now... I noticed that we have -- You've been waiting practically all day. Are you going to be testifying on the Rizzo Skating Rink? Are you going to be testifying with this group? Can I ask everybody from the Rizzo Skating Rink to come up before Mr. Schwartz because the children have been very 411 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget patient. And I think it would be nice if they came up to the witness table. Please approach the witness table. Mr. Schwartz, I was wondering if you were in the room. I would just like to hear from the children first.
Thank you. Good evening. Do you all play hockey? (A number of children nod their heads in the affirmative.)
You do? What rink do you belong to? A NUMBER OF CHILDREN: Rizzo.
How often do you play? (Unidentified children speaking away from the microphone, not reportable.)
I beg your pardon? Okay. Who's going to testify? Who's going to testify? Would you please take a seat, identify yourself for the 412 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget record, and proceed with your testimony.
I'm Angelo Pinto. I'm the President of the Rizzo Rink Advisory Council. Personally I've been there over 7 years. We have hockey programs, ice hockey 8 programs in the winter, roller hockey in 9 the summer. 10 Hundreds of kids go through our 11 rink. The City plans to close the rink in 12 efforts to balance the physical budget. 13 Rizzo Rink has done an outstanding 14 job in our community. We've come to... 15 We've come to learn -- Wait a minute -- 16 Hundreds of children have come to learn... 17 I can't even read my own handwriting any more. It has come to our attention at Rizzo Rink Advisory Council that our rink may be closed. The City plans to close the rink in efforts to balance the physical budget. Rizzo Rink has done an outstanding job in our community. Hundreds of children 413 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget have come to learn how to ice skate and play hockey. We are proud of our facility. We are equally proud of the staff and are committed volunteers. We have over 50 volunteers that volunteer at Rizzo Rink every year. Our facility is very safe. It is a place where parents take the children to have affordable time on the ice. Many rinks in the suburbs are very expensive. The ice hockey programs in particular can cost upwards of a thousand dollars. We skate at Rizzo Rink for pennies on the dollar, compared to suburb rinks. At Rizzo Rink, we participate in our hockey programs. The ice hockey programs at Rizzo are run solely by volunteers. Inner city children need a safe, affordable place. They need to know where it is safe. Our streets have become entirely too violent. Rizzo Rink is not only an ice 414 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget skating facility. We operate year around. We have a thriving spring, summer roller hockey leagues for children of all ages. We regularly compete in City-wide roller hockey tournaments. Sometimes we even win. Our very successful summer camp also provides swimming at Hanlon Pool which is right around the corner, another facility that we use. We can not afford to lose many more children to violence. Closing recreation centers are not the answer. Please support us in our effort to keep Rizzo Rink from closing by signing the attached petition. And Council members, you are all residents of Philadelphia. If you would like to sign our petition, I'm pretty sure we can find a pen.
I'm sure that Councilman Kenney would like to be the first one because I know that he is to take his son -- 415 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
Oh, you already signed. He needs to be the first one. Thank you.
Okay. We weren't playing around. Rizzo Rink will not go quietly.
Angelo, you were very good. Thank you. And I think it's wonderful that the children came in. Is there a spokesman from the children's group? Can we hear from one of them, please. Put your signs down, please. Only one, please. 416 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget DEBBY: My name is Debby. And I take ice skating lessons there. And I've been playing there for three years, and... And I disagree with this because what's more important, kids or money. Because lots of kids take lessons there. And what if the Mayor had a favorite thing to do and someone stopped it from happening. He would be really sad.
I don't believe you recognized yourself. (Applause.)
I don't believe you recognized yourself for the record. What is your name, dear? UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: My name is --
Debby, how old are you? DEBBY: Seven. 417 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget
And how many years have you been taking ice hockey lessons? DEBBY: Three.
Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you all so much for coming in. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. And good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for coming out today. I don't know if you were here earlier when I spoke about some of the recreation facilities in my District when the other group was in earlier today. I found out late Friday via phone call that the Rizzo Rink is on the new list, if you will, of potential recreation facilities that are slated for closure. I have not seen that list. 418 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget If there is a list, it will be the third one that I've seen in the last -- will have seen in the last three or four weeks. So, I don't know where this came from or how it got there. There are a number of facilities I said I would fight to the death to make sure that they don't close. Rizzo is obviously one of those facilities. My dear friend and colleague, Councilman Kenney, when I came to Council in 1996, really encouraged me to put extra additional activity fund dollars into the facility because... I knew it was there. Drive by it. It's part of my neighborhood, but I never really went into the facility to see it in operation. This is a perfect example of a recreation facility that not only draws people from all over the community and educates children and gets them off the street, but it has a high degree of corporate sponsorship. There are many businesses in and around the South 419 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget Philadelphia community that put significant funds into the facility every year, in addition to what we do as a City to keep this facility open. And again, I know Councilman Kenney probably won't want to say it, but the 10,000 kids... He's one of the big kids that is part of that facility. He has skated there, and he's been an instructor. I don't know if you still are, Jimmy. Jimmy is still an instructor. He won't be the one to say it, but I'll say it for him. He goes down there and teaches kids how to skate, ice skate. And he offered me to go down there. I'm too old for that. I won't even attempt it any more. But that's the kind of facility that we're talking about. We have volunteers from all over. We even have an elected official who takes the time, his time. And we all know as elected officials we don't have much free time for ourselves. But he takes the time to go down there and put his 420 Whole - 5/12/04 - Operating Budget energy and resources into that facility, because he knows it's the right thing to do, and he's helping kids out. So, I don't know, again, how this ever got on the list. It's certainly nothing that's going to stay on the list, if I have anything to say about it. And Councilwoman Verna, whose District is across Broad Street, I'm sure a number of people from her facility use it, this Rizzo facility as well. So, we're all in it together. Thank you for coming out. And as you said, Angelo, they will hear our voices loud and clear. Thank you.