Committee Hearing, April 20, 2004

The answer is, we would propose to have a definitive list before you take first vote on the budget.

That would also include the Fire Department?

That would include both departments, yes.

Okay. Fine. That's a good answer. The ice rinks. What do you propose to do with the ice rinks? Because my understanding, from my personal experience with many of them, is that they're pretty vibrant, active, self-productive type of places. You said either lease or sale or 219 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 closure of five ice rinks. What's that all about? I'll have no place to coach next year.

Those were some of the considerations that we put into the recommendations that we had to make, in order to meet the cut that was presented. If we have the opportunity to turn ice skating rinks over to a private entity, advisory groups or whatever, that what's being proposed now is part of the consideration, is that if the City is fiscally unable to operate them and maintain them, that they would be considered not to operate next year.

I know there's been a lot of capital dollars invested in those facilities in the last four or five years. Do you have any idea how much money was put into those facilities? Could you get that information, as to how much capital improvements have been made? I know new ice surfaces and cooling 220 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 systems and roofs and other things have been put on. And now we're thinking about perhaps unloading them? And they're very active. All the ones that we have in the City, along with a lot of other facilities, are extremely active. I can't see why that's the place where we'd be looking. Have you met with community groups to explain the impact of the department's budget reductions, specifically the Recreation Citywide Advisory council? If not, any reason why?

No, I haven't met with them as of yet. I was trying to wait to meet with them when I had more definitive answers to talk to them, relative to the total amount of facilities, what the final budget would be. And then I would be in a position to meet with not just them but with any other entity.

I remember a couple years ago there were some dollars that were diverted from the Recreation Department, and I believe some contractual 221 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 monies from DHS that went to this non-profit agency called Safe and Sound. Were there recreation dollars diverted from the department to Safe and Sound and their activities?

I want to say they were, but I don't know the exact denomination. Maybe Ellen Striker might be able to help me.

If she's available and knows it. If not, I'd appreciate you finding out whether it happened and what the amount is, and whether it's a continuing annual thing.

Okay. Thank you.

Good afternoon. This is Ellen Striker, Deputy Managing Director. In the budget for the Recreation Department over the last few years, there's been 147,000 that was in Recreation's budget but being used for after-school programs through Safe and Sound.

Is that annually? 222 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04

That was annual. And that was based on an approval process that took place at the beginning of the Administration. Those dollars are no longer being used. They were not used in 2003, I believe, and they were not used this year. So, they were being -- They were returned to the Recreation Department because there were other grant funds available to cover those programs.

Thank you. Just one quick ending question. Commissioner, do you anticipate any impact on the annual Philadelphia Mummers Parade, the Recreation Department's operation of it, prize money and the like?

The Mummers Parade is being anticipated with the ten percent cut in the prize money, approximately $39,500, a little shy of $40,000, sir.

And how about on operations on personnel?

None on operating, 223 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 Your Honor.

I'll go next round. Thank you.

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.

Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Recreation Department Commissioner and your staff.

Good afternoon.

It's clear to me, in trying to get my arms around this budget, that your department represents the department with the most visible service reductions. My last... I'm not a budget person, but I am paying attention to the numbers, is that you are taking the steepest budget cut of about 20 percent. And as you look to closing rec centers, you've answered in part President Verna's question around the methodology you used to get to where you are, in terms of 224 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 the recommended closings. And for clarity I need to know... In gathering your information you said you did consult with staff. Elaborate on that for me. What does that mean? Did that include downtown staff, those who are on the front lines and around the City as well?

Deputy Commissioner Carapucci and myself, along with the City Planning Commission, the staffing out of the Managing Director's Office as well.

Okay. Help me understand district managers in the configuration of the Recreation Department.

Phil Carapucci, Deputy Commissioner, Recreation Department. Underneath myself there's three program directors. And the City's divided up into three divisions of the Program Division, three subdivisions. Underneath that there's ten district managers.

Okay.

They're the people 225 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 that really are working with the leaders day in and day out to get done what we have to do.

I see.

So they're the first line of management with the recreation leaders and with the advisory councils and community groups.

Is it appropriate to assume, then, that you would have to lean on them for information needed to arrive to where you got to, with regards to the center closings?

District managers we rely on for almost all of our -- many of our decisions. Put it like that. Many of our decisions, whether it's program or community usage, comes downtown through the district managers.

Okay. Thank you. Let me follow up on Councilman Kenney's questions around ice rinks. I had similar questions around pools because the 226 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 axe seems to fall disproportionately on pools and rinks. So, share with us what your action plan is or strategic plan is to fill that void, in terms of service to kids.

Thank you for the question. Part of my testimony, Madam Councilwoman, was relative to making recommendations to the City to consider the installation and development of spray grounds which is similar and just like in nature of the brand new state of the art play equipment. So, wherever any recommendations that have been made to eliminate any pools, those are the recommendations that we made back to the City, realizing and understanding what public recreation means to the City, and also knowing that we still need to provide, if possible fiscally, some sort of recreational function for young people.

227 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 Councilwoman, can I take you back on this a minute, please?

Please.

Commissioner, they're going to replace the pools with spray grounds. Is that what you said?

Yes. Spray grounds, spray park. Yes, ma'am.

What will each cost? What will be the cost per each spray ground?

We can start at approximately $75,000, Madam President.

$75,000 a spray ground?

Yes, ma'am.

And are you going to be... And are you going to be replacing all 20 sites with spray grounds?

Those are the recommendations that we are making.

So, what does that come to... What does that... 228 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 So, that amounts to $1.5 million for the...

Repeat what you said, Madam President.

Is it budgeted?

No, ma'am, it's not budgeted.

It's not budgeted, which means that we would just simply close the pools this year. And if, in fact, we go to spray grounds or spray pools or whatever they're called, that may not happen until our next budget, if it happens at all, because the five-year plan shows that there's a decrease in the recreation budget every single solitary year. (Applause.)

So does that also mean that next year we're going to see more recreation centers closed, and the year after that a few more? I don't -- You're telling us that you're going to close 20 pools. You're 229 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 talking about the spray grounds. You tell us that they're costing $75,000 each. Don't tell us... They're not -- certainly not going to be installed by this year. I'm sorry, Councilwoman.

That's okay. That's all right.

I just had to...

Add some clarity.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Charlie.

And I did not take your time. You're not being credited with it.

Thank you very much. Program, summer camps, 40. How and what is the -- How are we going to fix that, knowing that all these children are going to be out of school during that eight-week period? 230 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 Because I do know that there are discussions with the School District. You're coordinating with the School District to provide recreation activities on school grounds. Discuss that for us.

I appreciate that question as well. I am, too, concerned in -- myself along with the executive team, along with meeting with the School District and with the Managing Director. One of our number one goals is, as we go through this process and as definitive decisions are made, that we make sure that each individual child in each area that is possibly going to be affected has at least one but preferably two alternative sites for either public recreation, summer camps or after school. Some of -- And a lot of the recommendations would be that the parent has the capability to go another three blocks or seven or eight blocks up the street instead of using a little small C or D facility, to use the major A facility. 231 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 And if we do max capacity, that we are in a position to also show the parent where either a beacon school program is taking place and/or either a program of similar nature is being offered by the School District as well. So those are the considerations. We're not just saying take out the small C or D facility that is there. We're also in a position to state that this facility is in this proximity where the child will still be able to receive the services. It just may not be two blocks. This time it may be eight blocks or maybe up to a mile.

And understanding that this entire process of recommended school -- recommended school -- recommended center closings and pool closings is what I would call a work in progress. How far down the line are you with the School District, with them being an active, full partner around this dilemma 232 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 that we're facing?

I have a listing that I just received recently in my possession, and it shows all of the programming from K all the way through 12, along with the beacon schools. And I appreciate your term of work in. Progress. As soon as something definitive is done, then we'll be able to do the final touches, along with the input and the leadership from the community groups as well.

Is it reasonable to expect that we could see a draft document, through Madam President, before the end of this budget cycle, budget process?

I can do that, yes, ma'am.

So, parents who are looking for safe havens for their children during the summer months can have some assurance that this summer, if rec centers close, their children will have 233 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 some place, a safe, stimulating structured program for them to go to?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay. That's all for now, Madam President. While Madam President is engaged... You may want to go to the... I have a couple additional questions, but I don't want to violate the rules.

Councilman Rizzo.

Would you explain to me exactly what you mean when you say you're reducing? When you say 40 encampments, do you mean 40 sessions at Camp William Penn during the summer? What do you mean by that? Could you explain that again? And I apologize if I missed it and you clarified that. What exactly do you mean?

40 individual camp sites, day camps.

Day camp. Nothing to do with Camp William Penn? 234 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04

No. No, Your Honor.

Nothing to do with Camp William Penn.

No, sir.

Okay. Do you know the value of Camp William Penn? Has it ever been assessed, the value, the actual value of the facility?

Not to my knowledge, sir.

Be nice to know what it's worth. Maybe you could figure that out for us.

Sure. I'll have it appraised.

Again, if this has been asked, I apologize. We used the proceeds for the sale of the recreation facilities to fund community recreation programs. What exactly are you going to do with the proceeds, if in fact something does go to sale?

If something does go to sale, my recommendation is that we do 235 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 whatever we can to get that money back to the prospective Councilmanic District Council person, to use to reinvest in the enhancements of the preexisting facilities that will remain. So, I would see hopefully, but that's my recommendation.

Commissioner, with your administration's initiative, the Mayor's Transportation Initiative, if we start demolishing things, are there any of these facilities in the targeted area that closing or demolishing may be premature? It seems like the Administration has confidence that they're going to bring the neighborhoods back. And then in the same breath, you're going to take facilities away that may be needed to support the reverse of these communities. So don't you think it's kind of like a fine line before you bring the wrecking ball? You're really -- You're kind of undermining the Mayor's Transformation Initiative by saying we don't need these facilities? 236 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04

I appreciate that question. The majority of the facilities that are being recommended are facilities that are no bigger than the size of a conference room or maybe two times. Some of them might be three times the size. Might be a double car, carriage house, a garage. And within a mile radius or less we have a 20,000 full amenity functioning rec facility. So, while I appreciate a lot of the value that some of the smaller facilities do add, and that they may have been needed when the population... I still also have to take into consideration the percent of utilization of a full-size function and full-amenity rec center, and also the limited resources of the City. And I also have to make a business recommendation to this Council on behalf of the total City as well.

Thank you, Commissioner. 237 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 Thank you, Madam Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Good afternoon, Commissioner.

Good afternoon, Mr. Nutter.

Commissioner, I'd like to better understand your response to Councilwoman Reynolds Brown, her last question which I didn't hear all of the question. But I thought it was that you can ensure that this summer parents would have a structured program and activities where they could take their children. And I thought your response was yes; is that correct?

Yes. My response is yes. That is one of our main number one concerns. One of my other number one concerns, too, if I may add, sir, is to 238 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 make sure that I maintain employment of all my employees on the payroll. But, yes, I --

I understand that.

I am responsible to make sure that we keep the services in place for the parents for these young children.

I understand that. What I'm having difficulty with is the proposal to close either... I mean, you've laid out this list of 5 ice rinks, 20 swimming pools, 40 summer camps, 40 rec centers. When would you be proposing to do that?

In our conversations we're looking at this to possibly be a two-year period, if it is approved in how far it goes. So, if you're asking me directly right now, my answer is a two-year process.

I understand. When's it start? 239 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04

I believe some of the process has begun already.

What do you mean by that?

We were able to identify a facility called Maguire on Mascher and Lehigh that had one of those C or D buildings that was there.

Had one of those what?

A C or D type small facility.

Okay. Right.

And we were able, in conjunction of working with NTI, to have that building demolished. And right now because of the leadership of the Councilperson as well and the community, the young people have just completed the design of brand new lighting and play equipment that will be installed on that particular facility. And it's been adopted by the... What's the name of... The Lighthouse 240 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 Group, which is directly across the street. We've also identified as well, Your Honor --

Hold on for a second. Now... And that's certainly outside my area. But if this is the concept, then I guess maybe it would be coming, you know, to a neighborhood near me soon, so let me understand this. I'm familiar with the Lighthouse. So, are you saying that they have adopted the center. Now, what does that mean? Are they... Are they actually going to get ownership of the facility? Do they have a lease agreement with us? Is there a license? What is the nature of this adoption?

They've adopted it through volunteers with their non-profit.

Okay.

Through the leadership of the Councilperson appropriating the monies as well, to get rid of the building 241 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 that had been sitting there... How many years?

Right. And are there any ongoing capital responsibilities under this arrangement?

Good afternoon, Councilman. My name is Carlton Williams, Deputy Commissioner for the Department of Recreation. There is an investment that has been made with play equipment at the site. After the demolition of the Maguire building, which sat dormant for approximately seven years -- it was vandalized, used as a haven for drugs and other bad activities.

I got all that.

We decided to remove the buildings and make it a passive park where the Lighthouse would then be responsible. There is talk of a lease agreement that we would still maintain the grounds of the facility. There would not be a rec 242 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 leader there or a person on site, and they would provide us some supplemental assistance in regard to this.

Has there been a rec leader there before you demolished the building?

Councilman, there hasn't been a rec leader there in years. 10

All right. So, 11 I mean... I appreciate the information, 12 but that example does not necessarily seem 13 to represent the bulk of what you're 14 proposing. 15 But most of the centers -- Has the list -- Wasn't there a discussion earlier -- Do you have a list, do I understand? Is there a full list now? In order to make any savings, I have to believe that many of the centers that you're talking about would have to have staff. I mean, the fundamental way that the government would save money by closing the center is by the personnel costs; is that right? 243 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04

That is true, sir.

So that Maguire location is not necessarily the norm or the standard that you're dealing with; is that correct?

Right. Yes, sir. That is correct, too.

Okay. So, at the facilities that are presently up and running, have people providing service, and if you're saying that the process is already started, what centers or pools do you anticipate would be closed during the course of the summer or at the start of this fiscal year or for the standard recreation season?

I don't have a definitive answer to what facilities will be closed this summer as of yet. We have recommendations. When that time does come and those definitive answers are all done, between the Council, the Administration, myself, the community group or whatever, then I'll 244 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 be able to know exactly. When I stated the term -- And I appreciate your comments that, yes, the savings are with -- the facilities that are with the staff, and I'll get to that as well. That is one phase of how we're looking at eliminating the blight, along with having to go back and continue to try and eliminate sharp dumping or breaking into a facility that is dormant or being graffitied. Some of the other pieces are the lease with the individual or individual groups where they would actually -- And part of our stipulations would be in that lease contract, sir, is that they would have to maintain that facility for public access. And as an example, if a facility is an A facility that has all the amenities, or B facility and a pool, the City is proposing to maintain the operation of that pool, to keep it open for the children, in 245 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 order for us to meet the criteria as well, as far as proximity, the age, the distance as well. The savings does come in not opening summer camps, not having to hire summer employees which would be temporary jobs. Also, the savings would come in not having to open up X amount of swimming pools. And the savings would come from the chlorine costs, and also the costs of the aquatic staff of those facilities as well. And some of those savings would come in full-time permanent jobs as well.

Well, Madam President, I'm going to beg your indulgence. I guess two things: One, how is it possible to say that under a proposal to close 5 ice rinks, swimming pools, 40 20 summer camps, and 40 rec centers, that there would be no impact on service -- (Applause.)

-- to the people who are going to these facilities? That's one. 246 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 And I guess second, has there been any analysis of any other social costs that may result as a consequence of taking these particular actions from either how many children are possibly going to get in trouble, or get hurt, or have any other kinds of problems? I mean -- I mean, it is beyond my capacity to understand that you could say that there would be no diminution in service. Now, I understand that you're -- I mean, you have a case that you have to try to make, and you're going to do the best that you can. But it would seem quite impossible to do that and maintain that level of service with that much fewer facilities. And I guess the last thing I want to say on this point -- And I know I'll have an opportunity to come back. Only in Philadelphia. Only in Philadelphia could there be a thought that having more rec centers or pools than virtually any other 247 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 city in the United States of America is a bad thing. (Applause.)

I mean, you know, we're number one in so many wrong categories. And if we want to have a separate discussion about how many we'd have, and where they're located, the first -- I mean, I'll grant you the first item is an analysis of how many As or B centers are within a mile of another. This second document I would not consider, from my sense of things, a facilities analysis. It's kind of a recitation of what the rest of the world looks like. It has nothing to do with the particulars of the facility. But I just believe that in other cities, you know, it would be a part of their marketing and promotion for their town that they had more facilities than any other city in The United States of America. It would be a positive thing. They would 248 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 use to it attract people. They would use it to encourage people to stay in the town. And only in this place where we have some of the most bizarre thinking is it a negative. Now, I understand the financial side of it. And we can have a financial discussion. But it's just been an amazing day between the Fairmount Park, the Art Museum, and Recreation. All very positive aspects. I mean, you can throw in the libraries. I mean, I call your guys... I mean, you're like in the happy business. There's nothing to be upset about. There should never really be a bad day in any at least of those four operating departments. You engage with all kinds of members of the public: Young, old, everything in between. You give people a positive experience. And, I mean, it's just been a day of department after department, of things that we're taking away from people and diminishing this great place called 249 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 Philadelphia. And I don't really understand why it's a bad thing. There may be a center or two here or there. Maybe we haven't taken care of it. There's a building that's in bad shape. I mean, we deal with those things on a regular basis. But this aggressive targeted: We will take away art and culture, we'll take away recreation, we'll take away our own museums from people. For what? What is the goal? What is the purpose? What is it that we're trying to accomplish? (Applause.)

So, I'm way over my time. I've got many other questions to ask. But I just -- I wish that we would stop promoting the fact that because we have more than any other City in the country, it's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. We have some places that we need to take a better look at, make a 250 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 couple adjustments here or there. You know, that's fine. We should be doing that for all facilities, but not just for the Recreation Department. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll come back. (Applause.)

Thank you, Mr. Councilman.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

Thank you, Madam President. I've been trying to figure out the same kind of thing that Councilman Nutter raised. We are talking about recreation centers and pools as if they were bad things to have, rather than good things. I've been in Council a long time, and I never once remember -- long before our population began dropping -- I never once remember there being too many pools or too many recreation centers. 251 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 At all times there's been a shortage. We've never had enough for our people in Philadelphia. Yet here we're suddenly being told that we're overstocked with good things. Does this come from the Administration that's neighborhood minded, that's trying to help neighborhoods? (Applause.)

I don't understand, any more than Councilman Nutter understands, where this is coming from or why. Where is the money going to go to? Why do you feel that there's too many recreation centers and too many pools?

What question do you want... Where is the money going to?

Yes.

My understanding, the money is going back into the General Fund. Specifically, I don't -- I can't answer. Maybe Mr. Dubow can. I can talk about the national medium 252 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 and the per capita facilities and pools that we have relative to other cities as well.

But what does that prove? Suppose other cities are not interested in recreation? Does that mean we have to lose our interest in recreation?

No, sir.

When you came as Commissioner, one of the outstanding things mentioned about you was that you were a firm believer in recreation facilities, and that you were one of the country's leaders in promoting the development of recreation centers and pools. Yet you're in a position here where apparently you're being compelled to follow a policy of curtailment, rather than expansion. It's my belief that what we need in Philadelphia today are more recreation centers, more equipment in recreation centers, more staffing of recreation centers, and more pools, not less in any 253 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 area. (Applause.)

And the fact that they're not being utilized is probably because of deficiency in the programs. Because I know of no recreation center anywhere where it has an adequate program that attracts people that is being unused. But if you have a shortage of staff, a shortage of equipment, or it's not functioning today, or there's no staff member available on this occasion, then of course you're going to lose business, and people aren't going to come because it isn't worth their time. But I know of nowhere in Philadelphia where any people believe there is an over staffing of recreation centers and pools. Do you? Do the people like you complain saying, you know, we're overstaffed?

No. 25

I mean, I've 254 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 never heard that in 35 years almost in City Council. I've never once had a complaint from anybody about too much staffing. I've had thousands of complaints about under staffing and about needs, but never about over capacity of services or programs.

Right. Mr. Councilman, I believe you're right on point. And I appreciate everything that you're presenting. I also want to go on record to talk about my aggressiveness as a professional in being responsible. The department is a key, as Mr. Nutter just talked about. We're part of the personality of this City, the Rec Department, the library system, and everything else. Some of the recommendations that I have made already and that I will continue to make is that we need to tear down some old facilities, but we also need to replace as well. Those are some of the things 255 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 that, as I said, are ongoing and in the works. We have had some facilities that are upwards of 50, 60, 70, 80 years old. We have some areas of the City where we may have two or three small C or D facilities where I am making a recommendation that we take out those two or three little piece of shack buildings that we have and we build another Bellfield or we build another Simons to meet today's needs and today's standards, and build it at today's architecture for today's services of the children. So, I'm not here advocating that we just tear it down. I'm also going to be in a position to say -- and that's why I'm saying it -- we also need to look at the types of structures. And I said that in the criterias. But there are recommendations that I want, to make that we need to rebuild or demolish and put new in different spots as well, where there are either not enough or 256 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 there's a wrong type that's too old. But thank you for your comments and your leadership.

Well, let me ask you this, sir: If it were not for the recommendation or the requirements that as a Commissioner you have to live within a certain budget, would you be making these recommendations today?

Yes, sir. On some of them, yes.

Well, how many of them?

I'd have to look back at the list.

Well, could you do that and let us know?

Yes, sir.

How many of these would be cut? Because what your answer was was an answer that I think not only Councilman Nutter but all of us would accept. We understand that there's a need for 257 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 replacement. And that's good.

Yes, sir.

Because things ought to be continually remodernized. But I cannot believe that you really think that there's too much recreational facilities available for the children of Philadelphia. Because I am convinced as of now, right this moment, that we have an inadequate amount, not only as to new facilities, but any kind of facilities, new -- counting the old, we still have not enough. And I think that this is being driven not by your independent judgment as the Recreation Commissioner, but by the needs of the City budget, as interpreted by whoever is in charge of City budget. (Applause.)

That's to me the plain thing. It would seem to me that... How much money is going to be saved by all of this?

$4 258 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 million.

What's that?

$4 million.

And what percentage of your budget is that?

About 14, I want to say. I might be off a few.

percent? 10

Hang on one minute. 11 We'll count the... 12

13 Commissioner, is that list on its way? 14

Yeah. We have it.

Do you mind sharing it with us?

Seems to me clearly that when the newspapers talk of the Administration moving away from the neighborhood program, which I never thought they really got into. They were just at the beginning phases of maybe beginning to have a neighborhood program. And there's -- And it's now said the Administration is moving away from it. 259 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 It seems to me they're moving away from it with a vengeance, because they're going to have far less of neighborhood facilities available to the people of Philadelphia than we've had in many a year. And I don't call that progress. I call that stepping backward mighty fast and facing a terrible fate in the future. I don't understand this at all. Let me ask you one technical question from this list. What does it mean when your lists say location, and then put in parenthesis, pool? Does it mean that everything including the pool if the place is going to disappear or does it mean that only the pool is going to disappear if the recommendation is adopted?

I'd have to see that.

Madam President, is this prepared by our Council?

Councilman, I understand that the Commissioner is going to be submitting to 260 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 us in just minutes what the recommendations for closures are. There are pools that they're 5 talking about closing. And we'd like to 6 know the location of the pools, as well as 7 the skating rinks, the summer camps, and 8 also the 40 recreation centers that they're 9 talking about closing. 10

Wasn't there one 11 time, Madam President, about -- 12

Excuse me. 13 How many swimming pools do we have? 14

Total 87. It's 78 or 15 79 outdoor, I believe. 16

We have 17 87? 18

Excuse me, Council 19 President. It's 79 outdoor and 7 indoor. 20 So we have 86. Summertime we operate 85.

Wow. We have indoor pools. We don't have any in South Philadelphia, do we? (Laughter and applause.)

Those are some of the 261 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 recommendations that we would like to make as well. Thank you.

You're going to promise us an indoor swimming pool? Is that the recommendation that you're making?

Those are recommendations relative to meeting new standards and service levels that we can do with the children in the school and the neighborhoods.

Mm-hmm.

For each Councilmanic District, for example, you list the Morris Estate, the last one of five recreation centers listed, and you have in parenthesis just in that one pool. You don't have in parenthesis -- Is that the only pool in the Eighth Councilmanic District being affected?

Hang on a minute, sir, please.

Morris Estate is not on the list. 262 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04

I didn't get that.

Morris Estate, sir, is not on any list. It's not, as far as closure. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: On the Councilman's list it shows Morris Estate pool in parenthesis, on the list of facility cuts.

Councilman, that was originally proposed, but it's been amended. It's not on the list. It's not.

Well, tell me how a pool gets on the list.

Our department --

The fact of how many people come?

Well, a lot of it is driven by budgetary responsibility, and usage, proximity to other pools. And in Morris Estate, after we looked at it better with the help of our aquatics office, we realized that Morris Estate is very well used. That's why it 263 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 was taken off. It's not on the list to be closed, sir.

My recommendation is that something else that the Mayor also submits to Council, all of his choice of other cuts that are also going to be considered by him, because I don't think this cut has any chance of living through Council. I can't see how we can possibly approve this severe cut -- (Applause.)

-- in the quality of life for Philadelphians.

If I may say, Your honor, please excuse us. We just finished. We had to put some more stuff and look at it. I'd say if I can get an hour, I can have it totally professionally typed. But they're going in the back right now and making a copy. And a lot of the stuff is handwritten. But it's not a problem for us to get that stuff to you. And we 264 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 appreciate it. Yes. We need to know.

Councilman, a list is presently being prepared which will be circulated before the conclusion of the hearing.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm. Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. And good afternoon.

Good afternoon, sir. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm going to go down a slightly different path than my colleagues. I certainly respect what they're talking about and their comments. But I want to talk about the what-ifs. You and I, Commissioner, along with your Deputy Commissioner Carapucci and the Managing Director, have had some discussions about the proposed pool and recreation center facilities in my District, and those that are on the agenda to be as proposed to be closed or some 265 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 alternative uses. I have also had this conversation about engaging with the Mayor during the budget briefings a month or so ago. Where are we? Has any further discussion taken place, in regards to my suggestion that if -- And I'm speaking about the first Councilmanic District. I'm certainly not speaking about the other nine Districts. If there's an agreement between myself and your department, Managing Director, and the Administration on certain facilities that we would agree be closed -- and there's one pool in particular which I had requested to be closed a few years ago at the request of the community, and we agree that maybe that should stay closed, and maybe be sold. And I had put on the table a suggestion to the Mayor, to yourself, and the Managing Director. Those savings that the department -- the City will benefit by as a result of the closure and the sale of 266 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 it, what I asked was: Is there any way in which a portion -- I understand you're not going to get all that money back into my District -- but a portion of that money get reinvested into centers or pools that have a high degree of use that are in very populated neighborhoods where there really is not much else, in terms of public recreation for them, about getting some of that money and reinvest it into those type of facilities? Has there been any further discussion on that? Is that something that's still being considered? I just need to know because, you know, I had a meeting last week with some residents concerning the Sacks Recreation Center. And as I said to you, there were a number of issues there which I thought I will be confronted with concerning the closure of that pool, although they were very reasonable and were listening to what I had proposed or discuss at least. And maybe in lieu of the pool we do 267 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 the water park. I'm not sure yet, but they were at least cooperative and listening. But that will take money. And I need to know: If those agreements are made, are we prepared, is the Administration, your department prepared to put something on the table that I can take back to my constituents?

On speaking on behalf of the department, I said that earlier today, sir, that I believe we should be given opportunity to reinvest any properties or any savings back to the facilities in your prospective Districts. Maybe Mr. Dubow might want to make a comment relative to if there's anything definitive as well. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, for me, what I need, and I think I may have the largest number of rec centers of all the ten Councilmanic Districts. I may be off a little bit. I know I'm in the top three for certain, not counting the Fairmount Park 268 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 facilities which I think I have in my District, which I think is probably almost double what most Councilmanic Districts have. So, I have a very daunting task ahead of me when I look at all these things that were being asked, to at least be reasonable about, and talk to you and the other department heads about, to try to figure out how we make this work, and be as least painful for everyone as possible. So, again, how do we arrange that? Is there... Wecaco. I'm going to throw that on the table because maybe Mr. Dubow can answer that. We've talked about Wecaco, which is in Queen Village. And they've been looking for the possibility of using the facility at Wecaco for their community organization headquarters, which is not a bad idea. I mean, it's something they would like. But there's always that question is, who will maintain it, where does the liability begin and end on insurance for 269 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 the facility, if they take responsibility for it in the form of a lease. It's a non-profit group. It's not a for-profit organization. I think those are the kinds of things that would be very helpful, not only to me but to the rest of Council, that we really get into the meat of this whole conversation about the mechanics of how this all will take place and come about. I mean, for me it's more palatable if I know that if the Fonteleone pool is sold, and that saves us over five years whatever the cost of maintaining it, whatever the average cost of personnel there, and the sale would generate, how do I get some of that money back to put it at Palumbo? Which is a few blocks away or at Sacks which is a few blocks south, or one of those facilities that we can incorporate some of these activities into.

I think we agree that it would definitely make sense, to the extent that properties are sold, and we get 270 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 revenues out of that, that we plow those back into the same Districts. So, that makes sense. On the savings side, to the extent that had those savings aren't already incorporated in the budget, then it would also make sense to use that in the Districts. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Which leads me to the segue into my next question where there's a proposal to cut $800,000 from the Philadelphia Activity Fund grant which translates into $80,000 per Councilmanic District. In the scheme of things that doesn't sound like a lot, but we just got the applications in. We're going to start looking at where that money... We're like Moses as Council members. We got to figure out $400,000 was the request. How do we get $180,000 divided equally or somewhat equally? If we are going to engage in this dialogue, where we will give a... or lease 271 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 a facility to a non-profit, and they are going to incur a certain amount of responsibility, we are relieving ourselves of some of that financial responsibility. Wouldn't it make sense to keep to at least the level of the Activity Fund as to where it is today? Because their costs may go up. So, there's got to be a tradeoff here. If they're going to take some of that responsibility and burden away from us, we can't do the both things at the same time, also take the money away while we're asking them to do some of the responsibility -- take that other financial responsibility on. How do we get to that point? And I think that's what we really should be spending some time on. I don't mean that to be disrespectful. I just -- We got to figure this out. June 17th is around the corner.

I can respond a little bit, and maybe Rob may want to chime in on 272 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 it, the City's total overall fiscal stability. My number one priority to my department -- and I'm not an eye on me -- but is to maintain the employment of my staff. And if there are indirect or non-core service issues that I can address to help keep this City in the black and to maintain employment for every full-time permanent or every part-time permanent that I have on the payroll, that is the process and the decision making that I have taken upon myself, along with my executive team. People need their employment, their jobs. And we understand the position relative to the Activities Fund, the ice skating rinks, and everything else. But I have to take a look at the global picture. But my number one priority is to maintain employment for my staff. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I know my time is up. I appreciate your answer. But again, I just think that we really need to 273 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 start putting down on paper some of the possibilities, how the mechanics of some of these things that you and I have been discussing, and how it may affect the other District Council people because I'm not sure if they're familiar with this conversation that we've been having, and the possibility of recycling some of that money back into the Districts.

Yeah. I will call your office, and I will bring the solicitor -- one of the solicitors in the risk management as well. We had a big meeting with all of them relative to your questions last Thursday. Right now the position is, they are asking the possible entities to carry liability. But we haven't got into the final definitive stuff. So, I appreciate that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Which, again, that liability could be extremely expensive. But we're saving money because as of right now we're self-insured, so 274 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 anyone who's injured, vandalism, whatever occurs there, the taxpayers are paying. So, again, that's one of the -- you know, the $80,000 spread across... I don't know... 40 or 50 different community groups doesn't really add up to much in my District.

Right. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But I may want to bump up Wecaco or Queen Village, as an example, if they're going to have to take on that liability cost. (Applause.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So that, you know, they're not getting a double wham. They're getting banged on both sides. We got to really get down to the meat and potatoes on this one quickly.

Thank you.

Okay. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Thank you, Madam President. 275 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 There's some handwritten... There's some handwritten information on the back of this. What is this? Do you know?

Can we have an explanation of that last --

Right.

-- sheet of paper, please, that's handwritten?

Council President, it might be good if they explain this because every page is...

Now that we have the list.

Okay. I'll try to explain this the best I can. First, you see the list that was done here was a list that was made up about a month ago. Then as things progressed and we had to come up with the scenario of how we would operate if we did have to live within a certain budget, we had to add more facilities to match the loss of staff and to come up with the appropriate number of 276 Whole - Operating Budget - 4/20/04 savings to equal a possible budget cut. So yesterday these other facilities were added onto the list. You could see they were handwritten because this was done late yesterday afternoon. And we looked at mainly the smallest facilities, what we call D facility and some D facilities. They're the smallest facilities. And that's basically how this additional list came up.

You mean the last page is additional?

It's a total of... I think it's 38 facilities, Councilwoman.

Council President, I'm going to yield to Tasco. She has to go to a meeting.