Thank 220 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Jones.
Thank you, Madam President. Dr. Barnett, in previous discussions of the Five-Year Plan, we were talking about the possibility of balancing the budget. And one of the issues that was mentioned was space consolidation. And a couple of things. One, is there a formula for the amount of space that people need by way of operating based on title? I remember somewhere in the Personnel Department once, in another life, when I managed in the City, that there was such a allocation that required a specific title to have this amount of space. And is that still in operation? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Well, I hope not. One of the things that we want 221 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET to do is to allocate space by function, not by title.
Mm-hmm. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: And that's the reason that we're looking at the stacking plan for each of the three office buildings as a place to start.
Mm-hmm. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: And I think that we'll do it based on what the activities are, not what a particular title is. There are industry standards that people who look at space and manage space have. So we will definitely use some standards, but we also want to use some good judgment to be sure that we've got enough room to do the work.
Under the reform committee that you have -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
-- the Reform Team, are they looking at leases and things like that? 222 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes.
And trying to figure out -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes. The groups that are looking at -- the Reform Team that's looking at real estate is looking at, first of all, our use of our current three major office building; and that's the stacking plan that I believe was referred to yesterday. In addition, we're doing an inventory of the leases and the terms of the leases as well as looking for leases that we might have in the future, to be sure that we've got good terms. And, of course, one of the things that we can save money on pretty quickly is if we're in leased space now, that we can move into space we already own because we're using that space more effectively, then we don't that lease cost. And so, we're also looking add that.
In that 223 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET regard, we were listening to some of the semi-independent authorities yesterday, and they have a -- we had a particular lease arrangement at the Packard Building, and that was one of those buildings that we kind of worked it out, and we're paying for leases, I think, in the area of ten years? And is there a way to get out of that in a way that when start to look at those agencies actually folding into a municipally-owned space, and is that being evaluated? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes. I'll get you specifics on the Packard lease, but obviously, it depends on the terms of the lease, what it costs to get out of it. And so that's one of the things that we would take into consideration. But I can certainly give you some more detail on that one.
In those leases, does it have a clause that says if the City fails to be able to afford 224 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET these leases that we had, it was almost like a exit, back-door strategy kind of lease? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Councilman, some leases do and some leases don't. We have not done this consistently in the past, and that's one of the things that we hope to improve.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would note that the RDA yesterday was talking about a $4 million -- and it was not this administration's boondoggle but a $4 million boondoggle on a property- management system, which would be used to 225 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET manage the 5500 properties it owns and the other properties. And that's for the RDA. A commercial, off-the-shelf property-management system to manage all of our leases in addition to this would be another reason to make the expenditure to buy a commercial off-the-shelf system so we can avoid the maintenance costs of having our own computer programming. And the very question Councilman Jones asked you, when the lease is first put into place, would be to put it into the commercial management system and you would be able to tell him that there are six leases, or this much that have that clause, et cetera. We really have to modernize our government. And, you know, indecision is a decision; it costs us money not to make these changes. We have to start making these investments. Thank you, Madam President.
You're 226 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam President. Please tell us about the $75,000 allocated for the Mayor's Office of Faith-Based Initiatives. Discuss with us what they're doing (indiscernible) functions at this juncture. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: That's primarily for salary costs --
Okay. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: -- is what that money is for.
Okay. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: And so the person who is handling the Faith-Based Initiative, they are sometimes public-safety-oriented, they are sometimes human-services-oriented. There's a lot that that person does, and this is the amount of money for their salary. 227 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
Thank you, Councilwoman. On that expenditure in the Faith-Based Initiative, Reverend Handy is the principal there. He did things like the initiative by way of which every year, he'd go up to the prisons on New Year's Day and did that kind of networking with the pastors to provide, based on federal allocations, what kinds 228 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET of activities could be undertaken by faith-based ministries and to provide a amendment to some of the City services that we do. I happen to know about it because we worked with them on some of those initiatives, and they do a fine job over there, just as by way of clarification, and a point of information. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Well, thank you, Councilman Jones.
Let me underscore the observation made by Councilman Jones that the task force and those various departments that you talk about, that they look like Philadelphia. And you can count on me sending up recommendations and suggestions as well of possible individuals who may be suited 229 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET for what you're laying out. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Okay.
Okay. I think we've talked about 3-1-1 adequately. I believe that's it, that's it. Thank you. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for the record, I'll begin with this: I would like a chart -- I don't expect the answers today, but I'd like a chart showing every position within City government by department, job title, job duties and salary that has been eliminated by layoff, retirement, not filling a vacancy, or otherwise, since July 1, 2008. 230 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET And every position within City government -- and we'll e-mail this to you -- by department, job title, job duties, salary, and source of salary; i.e., what department or departments pay it that has been added since July 1, 2008. And a chart showing the total change in the number of full-time positions and salary for these positions broken down by department and citywide from July 1, 2008 through the November rebalancing plan and to the proposed FY '10 budget. So I'll -- we'll e-mail that to you, but ... For a long time, Dr. Barnett -- and I know we agree on this issue -- we've talked about a paperless City government and the efficiencies that it will bring the -- not -- much of the information that people are requesting here, if we had a paperless City government, would literally be available 231 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET at your fingertips. You could sort the database, and we'd have the answers. So there are a lot of people involved in our paper-based system in government that are positions that are basically redundant once we have a paperless City government. And so, I know you know the answer to this because it was brought up in 3-1-1 Philly Stat yesterday. How many people on the City payroll are responsible for entering or reviewing timesheets? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: (Addressing staff.) Do you remember what we said? I think it's like 170 or something.
That's 203 232 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET people just entering timesheets. So that is roughly 1 percent of our City workforce -- a little less than 1 percent -- that do nothing but enter timesheets and review timesheets. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I think it's anyone who is involved. They could have other duties, but it's still an awful lot of people.
It's an awful lot of people. That's an awful lot of savings by going to one system or another. And so, could you just talk about what our plans are to get data in from other methods -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
-- than paper? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: You're going to be hearing more about this, of course, when Allan Frank, our chief information officer, presents it's budget. 233 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET But one of the things that he's done in the first six months on the job is to first do an inventory of what we have because, believe it or not, we didn't have that. So we've got an assessment now of the number of people who are working in information technology. We're beginning to get a feel about where all of the equipment is and what all the software is, although we haven't finished that inventory much less documented a lot of procedures that we're involved with. So the first thing that we want to do is to be sure that we know what the current system is and to keep the system running. We still have trouble making sure that we have almost a hundred percent uptime for our systems, which is what we need. So that's our first priority, is to make what we have work. To do that we think that we can 234 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET really -- it can really benefit from some consolidations. We probably don't need help desks; we probably need one that 5 can help you all of the time. 6 We have worked particularly with 7 some of the initial departments -- Police 8 and Licenses and Inspections and the 9 Department of Human Services -- to 10 fulfill their information-technology 11 needs without them having to have their 12 separate information-technology 13 operation. 14 So we've tried to improve on a 15 pilot basis the functioning. The idea 16 here is to keep the part of the 17 information-technology system that essentially runs all of the computers and makes it all work, to have that on the same system, to have it -- its operation reviewed and supervised by our information technology -- our Division of Information Technology. The applications in the departments will vary, depending on what 235 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET kinds of applications that department wants. And this is where the real benefit is to us in terms of getting rid of paper -- being able to manage more effectively, knowing more what's going on in terms of trend analysis, having information more readily available. Those kinds of things are available from the applications that we have in each of the departments. We want to be sure that it not only matches what the department needs, but that if another department needs a similar kind of information or needs information from that department, they can connect. Right now, that's not true. So one of the things that we're doing is to do an assessment of the system, assessment of what we're spending in terms of personnel and also in terms of consulting costs, 'cause they're substantial, and then to come back with an integrated plan. And I believe that that will be 236 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET the beginning of the testimony that you will hear later this afternoon from our director of information technology.
Okay. That is something that was promised for this budget season, which was a complete count of the number of employees involved in the IT function. (Timer bell rings.) MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: You'll get it. We have it.
You have all that stuff? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: We have it. You'll get it.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Yes, Madam Chair, I did overlook one question here. 237 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET And this is not to take a position; it's purely an inquiry. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
Marsha Gelbert, in the Inquirer, recently reported that -- and I quote -- "internal discussions were underway" led by yourself "regarding the potential change with the City row offices." Can you share with us what your findings are thus far? And more importantly, how do other cities deal with these types of offices? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: There are no findings so far because we haven't initiated the review yet. As I'm sure you know, the Committee of Seventy has issued a report. It's my understanding that PICA is also going to be providing some additional information. For us to do the reform agenda that we had laid out, we had to do some first and some second, and the row offices is in the second batch. 238 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
I see. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: The names of the reform teams that I read to you are the ones that are active now. And then we're expecting that we'll have more that we'll follow up, including some discussion of the row offices, but first we're doing these.
Might you have available the -- you named five or six different areas of expertise that your department is undertaking, with the stainability being one of them. You charted them off this morning. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
Can you state what they are again? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Are you talking about when we were talking about the previous organization?
These were the task forces, I believe it was. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Oh, those. Yeah, I've got those. Hold on. 239 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Okay. The current reform teams?
Yes, mm-hmm. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: They are: Police, Fire, and Emergency Medical Service.
Mm-hmm. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: The third one is Prisons and Criminal Justice. Human Services is the next one.
Yes. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Then Education, Energy and Sustainability.
Okay. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: The Development Process, Streets, Administration and Technology. And, finally, Customer Service.
Okay, then. Thank you very much. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
You're 240 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So if you could please provide to the Chair the cost of those two or three employees on an annual basis, I would appreciate that. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: And do you want just the full-time costs, or do you want us to try to allocate the percentage of time they spend on that?
If you have that, that's the best number. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Okay. I'll see what we have.
The proposed budget includes $6 million in Class 200 expenditures from the General Fund but doesn't provide supporting detail; specifically, no supporting detail is provided for Class 200 expenses on 23, 36, and 61 of Section 42. 241 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Do you have detail on what that Class 200 expenditure is going to be? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes. And there's some that we know and there's some that we are anticipating through the year that we don't know. So I'll get you a complete list of both.
Well, can you -- do you know the difference between what you know and what you don't know in terms of dollars? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: The total? Mm, no, I don't.
So the question is: When you say you don't know what they are, does that mean the use for them has not even been determined, or does that mean that you have a use but you haven't issued the RFP and you don't know who it's going to? What does that mean? if you follow the question. 242 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET What does that mean, "I don't know what it's going to be used for"? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I think most of the Class 200, in terms of the contracts, we do anticipate what they will be used for.
Okay. So you'll have a specific purpose -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes.
-- for the dollars identified. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes. We don't have specific contracts for each one of 'em.
Okay, great. If you could provide the specific purpose for which it will be used, and then, if there is no purpose, you know, just that it's there. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: And if we haven't issued the RFP yet, the amount of money that we list as potential should not be considered the budget for that project, 'cause there are other people 243 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET besides you who are going to be looking at this list. So I want to be sure that that's on the record.
Sure, yeah. So in the budget detail, a significant portion of the budget for the Youth Violence Reduction Program has been moved from the General Fund to Grants Funding? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: That's correct.
And I heard Deputy Mayor Gillison testify that that was, in part, from Recovery Act dollars? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: We are hopeful that we will get additional money other than what you see in the budget.
Okay. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: But because we don't have it yet, we can't show it in the budget.
So the specific grants there are already granted and -- 244 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes. There are some specific allocations for the Youth Violence Prevention Program, so we're pretty confident that we'll be able to get them. But we don't have them yet --
What is the -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: -- so we didn't put them in there.
I see level of General Fund spending through the Five-Year Plan basically. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
What is the duration of these grants that are in place for this fiscal -- for FY '10? Do they carry through the Five-Year Plan or... MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: (Addressing MDO staff.) Do you know the term of the grants for YVRP? That's the question. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: Oh, sorry. 245 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET (Deputy Mayor Gillison comes forward.)
Sorry, Deputy Mayor Gillison. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: How you doing. Good afternoon, Councilman. And good afternoon, Madam President. The way that the Byrne Grant works, which is where YVRP has gotten most of it, they -- the federal government is usually one fiscal year behind us, so we're dealing with Fiscal Year '08, although we're being able to allow to put it into our Fiscal Year '09 and '10. So we just got a grant for $1.5 million through the efforts of our federal delegation. That was just announced. And we'll be able to put that in. And we had anticipated it and we were able to use that in our Fiscal Year '10 application. So we are running a little bit right on par with what our anticipations 246 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET were and what we thought we would get. And now we're trying to see if we can get more. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Sounds like it's an annual grant.
So the duration is annual? DEP. COMM. GILLISON: Annual, yes. You'd have to get it on an annual basis.
So we don't know if we'll get it for '11, '12, '13, but the assumption of the budget must be that we are. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: Well, there --
Because we're not cutting -- or are you cutting this program in Year 11? DEP. COMM. GILLISON: We actually did have to cut. If you recall, when we came in, this administration pledged $5 million. When we first started out, we had to cut back. 247 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
Right. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: So if we have to fund different things, if we have to cut back, then we'll deal with it that way in order to make sure other needs of public safety are met.
Okay, but the question is: There's General Fund revenue -- General Fund spending is basically the same for the Five-Year Plan? DEP. COMM. GILLISON: That's correct. We're hoping that we're going to keep it --
So you're assuming you're going to -- DEP. COMM. GILLISON: Yes.
One of the budget assumptions is that you continue to get that same amount of funding from the federal government for that program. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: Our assumption is that we're going to hope that we will get the federal -- 248 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
Right. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: -- and our assumption is that the Class 100 money that we identify would from -- would stay the same and not increase over the next couple of years.
Okay. DEP. COMM. GILLISON: And any expansion that we would be looking at for the out-years will have to come from Grant Funding and from not from the City.
Okay. So I thank you very much. I -- recently in my office, we received a service-level agreement, and I assume that's from the Managing Director's Office for 3-1-1? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm. (Timer bell rings.)
So who's the service-level agreement between? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: There 249 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET are several different kinds of service-level agreements. Some of them are the kinds of standards for service that the departments give to the citizens when they call in. For example, what's the standard-level of service for filling a pothole? what's the expectation? and how quickly that turnaround time is. So we call those things "service-level agreements." We also have service-level agreements between operating departments and support departments so that they can -- you know, it's a concept that I think really helps in terms of clarifying expectations and making sure we hold ourselves accountable in terms of the support to the operating departments. So there are those kinds of service-level agreements as well.
Okay. So with respect to these service-level agreements, do you have data that -- are 250 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET these based on data about how long it's taken in the last three months, or are these sort of our goal, aspirational? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Councilmember, I don't know which paper you're referring to. So if I could see it. (Councilman Green holds up document.) MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I can't read it from that far away. Let me see it, see what it is. (Dr. Barnett looks at document.) MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: These are service-level agreements from the department in terms of the time it takes to do certain tasks. In most cases, I can say now that we've at least got some baseline data. This is the kind of thing that we would be developing and tracking through Philly Stat. So in most cases, we have information that supports whether we're meeting the service level or not, which 251 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET we review during, of course, the Philly Stat sessions.
Okay. So when you review stuff through Philly Stat, obviously, we know about the call center, the 3-1-1 Center, when information comes in, when it's told it's resolved, so that's a specific number of days. In terms of the information you're getting from the departments with respect to the work they do themselves, it's not at the request of one of our customers, our citizens. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Mm-hmm.
How are they held accountable for providing the right numbers? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Well, currently what they do is collect the data. We advise them on the best ways to collect it if they're not currently collecting it. Then they give us the information, which we question during the 252 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Philly Stat sessions. We don't have a robust secret shopper program yet or a robust performance-auditing component of Philly Stat. It's something that we do through our discussions with the departments, both before and after they come to the Philly Stat meeting. But I'm expecting that as we get better at this and we add improvements to Philly Stat, those will be some additional improvements that we'll add.
How easy would this be to truly measure if there was no paper in City government? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Well, the quality of the information still relies on people telling the truth.
Well -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: They can do that with or without paper.
Well, except that the first -- in order for anything to get done in a paperless system, it has 253 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET to be entered into the system in the first place. It's -- so because that's the only way it moves through the system, it's approved by supervisors at each level, much like the HR implementation that Mr. Frank is going to talk to us about. That's what a paperless system does within, say, a public company. And it provides a complete audit trail, because you can't amend it or change it. So I'm just wondering how -- maybe you don't have an opinion on how easy it would be to have accurate information if we had a paperless system, and I can save that question for Mr. Frank. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I think that all of our -- I think it would be easier everywhere if we were able to have these automated systems where we could do more trend analysis and exception reporting. It's not currently where we are 254 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET as an organization. We're still trying to be sure that we have developed the correct measures and that we have reliable ways of reporting it regardless of whether it goes into a paperless system or an electronic system. We're still working on that phase, but I think anytime that we're able to, um -- anytime that we're able to manipulate this data electronically, it's a lot easier for us to do the analysis.
Okay. Specifically I have some questions. The SLA -- first of all, was this to Council, or was this your contract with the citizens or... MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I'm not sure why it was prepared. It's not complete. It just has some of the operations on it, so I'm not sure what additional --
I just -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I don't know what answer -- I don't know what 255 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET question this answers.
Okay. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: But I can tell what you it is. And it's not a complete list of all the service-level agreements in the City.
Okay. So some of them are concerning: No heat in a tenant-occupied apartment. Is a three-day response work being done without a permit? Is a 10-day response -- by that time, many jobs are finished. A broken pipe in a vacant house is 3.25 days. Leaking fire hydrant, 11.25 days. Cave-in repair, 30 days. Is that -- is this what we were -- is this aspirational? Or are we -- or are these our current numbers, I guess? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Well, it's definitely not aspirational, 'cause 256 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET I sure would like to make 'em shorter. But in many cases, it does reflect the reality of the funding level and our current processes. So what we can do with the money that we have is to look at our current processes and see if we can do it smarter, faster, and better, and I think there are many cases where we can. But we do have a very real constraint in terms of how many resources are applied, and we're going to have to be managing that issue as well as the performance issue.
Yeah. Some of these seem to really affect health and safety issues, and the failure to address them causes many more costs down the line, and I wonder if we're prioritizing them that way. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Well, let me get some specifics on the ones you've mentioned because I agree that not every one of these on the list has the 257 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET same impact on health and safety. So we'll give you some analysis on it and see what we can do to illuminate it.
And, by the way, I really like the fact that we're starting with 'em. I mean, we'll get them down over time -- MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I'm so glad you added that.
Okay, thank you. Thank you, Madam President. I just have a comment. On Monday, we're going to get a briefing on the Stimulus dollars, and I attended a briefing this morning on Stimulus dollars. And one of the things that we 258 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET were told is that some things -- some funding Philadelphia will get because we're part of -- 'cause we're going to get it anyway due to the formula. But there are other monies that you can -- that are discretionary that we can compete for such as job-training funding and I believe this particular funding for youth between the ages of 11 and 25 -- I think it was called "Youth 12 Connect" or something like that. 13 And on Monday, when we have our 14 briefing, I hope that we get the 15 information that helps us better 16 understand what Philadelphia is applying for over and above what we'll get anyway just based on the formula. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Okay. We'll be happy to do that. Just generally, I can say that everything that is on that summary list that we gave you, we're going to be applying for things on that list. That's what that list is. It's the ones that 259 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET we're eligible for, and we're going to use 'em all.
When did you give us the list? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: It's the list that was distributed last week from Mark Allan Hughes on the particular items, and I was here when they distributed it.
Okay. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: If you need another copy, I'll be happy to give it to you.
Okay. Maybe I might need another one. It might be mixed up in some of my other materials. What was -- was that the Five-Year Plan day? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Yes, yes, I think it was.
Okay. 260 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: And there was a separate sheet that listed Stimulus money, but I'll get you another copy.
Okay, 'cause one of the questions I asked this morning -- 'cause one of my concerns is that people that are standing on corners every day, because they can't get employed, will be left out, and maybe they won't, but I'm afraid that they will just based on some of the history here. And I asked if a funding of something similar to a CETA program, whether the money was allowed to be used that way, and they said yes. So that kind of gave me some hope that we could institute that type of program, a work program that will put some people back to work, or put them to work actually for the first time. So on Monday, I do hope that we get specific information about what we can do -- 261 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Okay.
-- to change things here in Philadelphia. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Okay. He heard you.
Okay, thank you. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I heard you, he heard you. We'll respond.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.
Oh, thank you. Can you tell us what the status is of the Strategic Marketing Initiative? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: I'm not sure what you're talking about, 262 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Councilmember -- Council President. Can you tell me what page you're referring to?
It's $3 million in revenue estimates for it, and it's your department. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Where is it that you're looking? Can you tell me the page number? That'll help. (Witness comes forward.) MR. McPHERSON: . MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: It's a City Rep.
Madam President and Councilmembers, I believe that when we initially put that in the budget, in the 2009 budget, it was an attempt to get revenue to the City from doing a variety of sales or marketing of City properties. I think one of the properties was -- one of the things we were looking at was the courtyard for City Hall. Some of that has yet to occur; we're still holding the revenue and 263 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET showing it. Some of that was going to be worked on by the City Rep's Office, but we're still in it -- sort of in the infancy with that.
So, Steve, are you telling us that we found $3 million? Or did we lose $3 million?
Madam President, I am very reluctant to give up $3 million at this juncture. I would say that we still have a lot of work to do to realize that there $3 million.
Good question. We need to be showing some progress on how we're going to achieve those dollars, whether it's some branding for the City in terms of some of the things we're doing with gift shops or with other entities. Again, that was a place holder at the time. So it's, it's...
Okay. 264 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Councilman Green, your light's on.
Thank you. Just -- I can't find -- was that of... Oh, okay. So that is revenue we have not achieved; is that right, Steve? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: That's correct.
Thank you. And also, I just note that in July of 2009, I guess, July -- July of 2008, I sent a request to each department head and to the Managing Director, and we've been working with Steve on this, for a list of every single paper form used by every department. We have gotten an incomplete response. Some departments have responded, some have not. Sorry; Steve 265 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Kennebeck, actually.
Oh, I was going to say I thought we had to do a form to get all of the forms of the form.
And we're still looking for that information. Hopefully, it's not that hard to figure out what paper is used in what City department. And if is, it speaks to the problem that I've been talking about all day long. Can you give any sense of when we'll get a final response to that, I guess, eight-month-old information request? MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: It's not as easy as it may appear, so I think that it does indicate one of the problems we have in terms of knowledge management. It's also one of the things that we're addressing through some of our changes in information technology. And I believe that you'll hear more about that in the presentation later 266 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET this afternoon from Allan Frank.
If -- I appreciate that, but if you could also provide to the Chair a date by which I'll receive a response to that information request. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: Okay.
Thank you, thank you. MANAGING DIR. BARNETT: It's been a pleasure.
Oh, I'm sure. For us too. MR. McPHERSON: Next is the Procurement Department. (Witnesses come forward.) COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Good afternoon, Madam President.
Good afternoon, and thank you so much for your patience. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. 267 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: All right. Good afternoon, Council President Verna and members of City Council. My name is Hugh Ortman, and I am the Commissioner of the Procurement Department of Philadelphia. With me today is Deputy Commissioner Mary Stitt. We are presenting for your consideration the Procurement Department's Fiscal Year 2010 budget request. The Procurement Department is requesting a total appropriation for all funds of $3,894,028, which is a decrease of $1,062,772 from Fiscal Year 2009. The General Budget for Fiscal Year 2010 provides $2,423,000 for Class 100 expenses, supporting 50 employees. The budget request also includes $1,292,000 for Class 200 purchase of services and $59,554 for Class 300 and 400 supplies and equipment. The Grants Revenue Fund Budget provides $30,000 for 200 Class purchase 268 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET of services, and the Water Fund Budget provides $69,028 for Class 100 payroll expenses for two employees. The Procurement Department is comprised of three divisions: The Services, Supplies and Equipment Division centrally purchases products and services needed by the City departments to provide services to the public. The division monitors the City's Class 300 inventory of supplies and accounts for personal property. We also write bid specifications, prepare bid packages, and disseminate bid information to the public and review and award contacts to vendors. The Public Works Division processes capital project and concession bids, administers the citywide advertising program, coordinates the inspections of goods, and the disposal of surplus City property. The Executive Direction Division provides the leadership, management, and 269 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET direction of the Procurement Department. The mission of the Procurement Department is to obtain quality goods, services, and construction in a timely, cost-effective, and professional manner through a competitive, fair, and socially responsible process, in accordance with the law. The FY 2010 General Fund Budget request should provide the resources necessary to accomplish this mission. The Procurement Department has a unique role in the newly-devised Philadelphia Plan, and then our customers are the departments, who need goods and services so that they, in turn, can provide goods and services to the citizens of Philadelphia. It is our job to find out what our consumers need -- or customers need and provide it as quickly and efficiently as possible. The Procurement Department works closely with the Mayor's Office of Sustainability and other City departments 270 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET to expand the City's green purchasing and to develop an environmentally-preferred purchasing plan. We have also worked closely with members of City Council to develop environmentally-preferred purchasing initiatives and have encouraged actions within our own department to become more environmentally conscientious. Most recently, in partnership with the Environmental Protection Agency, training was held for procurement specialists throughout the City on the aspects of purchasing Energy Star- approved products. Additionally, we continue to develop bid language that encourages and/or requires vendors to provide environmentally-preferred options when possible. Our Public Works Unit will have tremendous responsibilities in the upcoming economic recovery and the expected creation of jobs. These jobs will be largely in the construction 271 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET industry and in the continuing effort to make Philadelphia the greenest city in America. We have dedicated personnel who will ensure the smooth progression of the various Stimulus projects through the Department.
The Department is also responsible to certify local business entities when they qualify for the 5 percent bid preference on contract awards. This effort is designed to keep companies in the City, to everybody's benefit. We also partner with the Office of Economic Opportunity to promote minority participation in a wide variety of contracts. As to the enhancement of public safety, Procurement processes all requests from Police and Fire, from ammunition to protective clothing to safety supplies in general. In coordination with the Office of Fleet 272 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Management, the Department has ongoing contracts in place for vehicles such as police cars, fire engines, and other emergency equipment. Our Public Works Unit has been actively involved in the purchase of specialized emission systems for all the firehouses in the City. This is a huge effort to reduce the carbon monoxide emitted from fire engines, with the goal of protecting our firefighters as they are preparing to depart the firehouse for emergency calls. The Department is actively involved in the section of the Philadelphia Plan that calls for the reforming of government. Procurement is currently undergoing an intensive review to ensure that our processes are the most efficient and provide the City with quality products at optimum pricing. Department personnel are actively involved on the Administration's Reform Teams that are taking a thorough 273 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET look at the way the City does business and how it could improve. Besides reviewing the process, the team has conducted a (indiscernible) analysis on the products and services the City purchases, reviewing alternative- purchasing vehicles, and evaluating best practices. You will note in paragraph 2 of the testimony that just over $1 million, or approximately 28 percent, has been cut from our original FY '09 budget request. The bulk of these cuts are in 100 Class in the form of wages and in 200 Class advertising funds. We have eliminated six filled positions and five vacancies. Overtime has also been eliminated. Procurement staff is dedicated to continuing its tradition of excellent customer service, even with a decreased staff, by tightening up the process, reallocating responsibilities, and continuing to develop the skills of 274 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET current personnel. There are some concerns as to the workload when the funds from the Recovery effort arrive, but preparations are well underway. Our staff is willing to pick up extra duties and have willingly shared the load whenever necessary. The advertising reductions mentioned are being accomplished in a number of ways. City commissioners, for instance, have already begun negotiations with Philadelphia Newspapers, Incorporated to reduce rates charged for election advertising. Procurement has been able to reduce expenses on a citywide basis by reducing non-mandated advertising, adjusting the sizes of ads, as well as the placement of ads in a more efficient manner; for example, no Sunday ads. Procurement has been actively in the Charter question recently introduced by Councilman Clarke. There is the 275 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET opportunity to cut additional funds for Procurement's budget as much as $150,000 a year with proper usage of this legislation. We look forward to a partnership with Council through the Office of Legislative Affairs as this process continues. Office of Economic Opportunity. While it is the OEO that is responsible to set minority ranges on City contracts, Procurement still has an active role in helping prime vendors to meet those ranges and to ensure that certified minority vendors have an opportunity to participate. At pre-bid meetings, vendors are encouraged to seek minority participation and are introduced to minority businesses.
Procurement continues to partner with OEO in training programs designed to educate minority vendors about the bidding process and opportunities with the City. The Economic Opportunity 276 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Cabinet, of which I am a member, is meeting with OEO on a regular basis to discuss just how the Department and the City should proceed in these efforts. We have been asked to relate the impact if our Plan B budget scenario for budget cuts would need to be implemented. As it currently stands, Plan B calls for the elimination of our Inspection Unit, Surplus Property Disposal Unit, and the Public Information Unit. The resultant service cutbacks would be the loss of quality control of delivered goods and services, and an end to the current surplus-property sales program, as it is currently known, which currently nets the City about $800,000 a year. Also lost would be the ability for vendors as well as departments to have a central point for questions pertaining to bids and the bid process. Customer service on all counts would be adversely affected. 277 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Madam President, this concludes my testimony, and I'd be glad to answer any questions that you and or other members of City Council may have.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. (No immediate verbal response from Commissioner Ortman.)
That's all right. I just want to have your attention; that's all. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: You've got it.
The Plan B -- I'll start my second question first. In your Plan B scenario, how much is the 278 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET financial impact of Plan B? You mentioned what would be eliminated, but you don't mention the dollar-amount. Could you give us that? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: I don't have it right with me, but it would in the neighborhood of $35,000 a person, about seven or eight people.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: We've already lost two people in those departments --
Well, let's say eight. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: -- because of the budget cuts.
Let's say eight. At 35,000, that's $280,000? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Yes, sir.
Okay. Let's say you got your numbers wrong and it's double that, okay? So that's $560,000. Who is the person above you that 279 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET would be willing to cut $280,000, or double that, $560,000 -- I'll be extremely generous -- and cut those expenses that would mean losing $800,000 a year in revenue? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Okay. I had anticipated that --
Could somebody check off on that? Or is my math wrong? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: No, your math is correct, sir, and I anticipated that question. But the problem I have is that the Procurement Department's prime mission is to procure goods and services.
Right. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: And that particular service is a peripheral of the Procurement Department.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Granted, it is not good math, but if I have to keep the Procurement Department running, 280 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET I would need to cut out that particular unit in order to save money out of my budget.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: But it would hurt the City's budget, yes.
But -- okay, but it just seems to me that -- and I understand you're doing your job, but somebody's got to be looking at these numbers before City Council gets them. And Steve?
It may not be Steve, but Steve will know if it's not him, I'm sure.
Councilmember, on the Plan B Budget, I think Mr. Armbrister has said this -- may have said this yesterday or may have said this last week -- we are looking at a range of very difficult choices. And I think that the total -- and you may have the numbers 281 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET there -- of an additional 400,000 or so on top of the 419,000 that's included in the Plan A reductions would indeed be a really severe reduction to Procurement. But in the effort to try and maintain direct services, we have taken some pretty significant reductions, or proposed reductions, and put them on the table in Plan B. And you will see that for a lot of the, you know, quote/unquote, back-office departments, including Finance and including my office --
Steve, they're going to be as ugly as ugly gets. I understand that, I expect it to be there. But when you have cuts of 280 resulting in a loss of revenue of 800, isn't that where the Budget Office comes in and says, "Whoa, put the brakes on 282 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET this one." Or there's -- it's one thing to show, you know, terrible, terrible cuts. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: And, Councilman, yes, they're terrible. Councilman, there's also an anticipation here that the departments are going to have to pick up some of this slack themselves and sell the vehicles on their own. It's just not going to be done with really any set process. I mean, hopefully, it will be done --
In other words, it won't be a loss of $800,000 in revenue. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Oh, no, no, no. 20
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: We have a set process that we use, which we could probably dispense to the departments --
So it would be -- 283 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: But the more you break it up, the less it -- it's not going be done as efficiently.
Okay. So it would be something -- something less than $800,000 would be what we would get. Steve, do you -- does the Budget Office have any idea of what the reduction of that 800,000 would be?
No, we don't. But to your point, did we -- I think to your general point, did we look at instances throughout these budgets where there was a potential loss of revenue if we took some action in terms of a reduction in staffing or some other expenditure. And the answer to that is yes, we did look at it, we did look at it very carefully. And one of the places we tried to avoid that sort of most was in the Department of Human Services, but it is the case across the departments where, faced with difficult choice, we made the 284 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET choice to eliminate the reduction. (Indiscernible; parties talking over each other.)
I don't have a problem with difficult choices. I have a problem with not being able to quantify how much less than $800,000 we're going to get as a city in revenue if Procurement is not doing the Surplus Property Program if it's being done piecemeal in different departments. I mean, you got to have some idea or you can't make a judgment. You can't make a judgment about 280 or 560 if it's -- to the Commissioner, I'm not suggesting he's off by a hundred percent, but the -- let's just say it's a 40 percent markup for wages and -- I mean not wages, for benefits.
So it's some number, say, above 280. There's got to be some judgment made, and I don't believe it could be made by anybody 285 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET better than the Budget Office that -- (Timer bell rings.)
-- well, we're going to get 700 or 600 or 500, some number that at least we'll know it's not 800 that we're giving up 280 for whatever that number might be. It can't just be, "This is ugly, it's going to get uglier," and those things will get done somewhere but very -- but not very efficiently.
That's not going to do it this year. We're not going to be able to live with those kind of responses. That's all I'm saying.
And in those cases, Councilmember, we relied on the judgment from the departments to provide us with their sense of what they would be able to do. It's really that straightforward.
Okay. I -- that's not an answer to me. That's kind 286 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET of where I heard yesterday an answer on the 590,000 or something. I'm sorry, that's just not it. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Well, Councilman, this gets even more complicated with the fact that we're reducing the City vehicle fleet by 700 cars this year, I think it is.
About how many? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Those cars will be sold this year, but that's going to be a lot less cars around to sell next year.
Right, okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: So that kind of -- it's a very complicated -- you can't just put a dollar -- I don't think you can put a dollar figure on it.
I withdraw that last question; it's not the right person to ask. But I just have this question. 287 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET Are either of you gentlemen aware of -- and the lady -- aware of U.S. Communities? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Yes, we are.
And are we being more aggressive at using that program? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: We've talked to U.S. Communities many times. They've been in our office for presentations, and most of the time, our prices are better.
Most of the time, your prices are better? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Almost always.
Okay. Do they agree with that? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: They're based -- U.S. Communities are based --
I know where they're based, I know everything about 'em. 288 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Oh.
Yes, okay. Thank you. We just don't seem to be doing as much of it as some people. That's all. You're there, that's all. DEP. COMM. STITT: Can I just comment?
Yes. DEP. COMM. STITT: We have a very good relationship with U.S. Communities, and we do consistently speak with them. And our prices do tend -- because we are a large buying power for the City of Philadelphia, many times, U.S. Communities will result -- will have better results with the smaller municipalities such as, you know, Montgomery County. And then they come together.
Okay. DEP. COMM. STITT: But we do keep constant contact with them, and certainly we -- 289 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
We have more buying power than U.S. Communities as a city? DEP. COMM. STITT: Many times we do. MR. McPHERSON: Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: U.S. Communities has a huge buying power, but their prices -- the suppliers that work with them know that the orders are going to come in very small quantities of very small cities.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Such as Montgomery County.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Whereas our orders were (indiscernible) just one place.
Okay. (Indiscernible; parties talking over each other.) COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: They do very good with smaller municipalities. 290 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
Okay. You're aware of how well they can do on recreational and play equipment when they install it? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Recreational and play equipment is the one contact that we use --
When they install it -- (Indiscernible; parties talking over each other.)
Okay, thank you. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: We do use that contract.
Okay. Anybody who wants to know about that, we just had it -- the Law Department reverse its position this year. It's amazing. Thank you.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode. 291 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Good afternoon.
In your testimony, you say the mission of the Procurement Department is to obtain quality goods, services, and construction in a timely, cost-effective, and professional manner through a competitive, fair, and socially- responsible process, in accordance with the law. The Fiscal Year 2010 General Fund Budget request should provide the resources necessary to accomplish this mission. I'd like to refer you to an ordinance that was passed about four years ago, the 21st Century Philadelphia Minimum Wage Standard. In subsection 17-1306, under required contract provision, it reads: "Every City contract, lease, license, concession 292 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET agreement, franchise agreement, or agreement for financial aid with an employee described in this chapter and amendment thereto shall contain provisions requiring the employer to comply with the requirements of this chapter. Subsection 17-1310, in responsible bidding and use of City funds, it says: Prior to commencement of the contract's term or execution by the City, each contract that's covered by the bill's requirements will certify the satisfaction of the City that its employees are paid the minimum wage standards provided by the chapter. As part of any bid application or proposal for any agreement or contract or other funding arrangement with the City covered by this chapter, the submitter shall include an acknowledgment in a form acceptable to the City of the terms of this chapter and intent to comply therewith. 293 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET The bill was unanimously passed by City Council and signed into law by Mayor Street. Is the Procurement Department complying with the law? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: I assume you're talking -- is this the 150 percent?
Yes. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Yes. We reviewed -- last year anyway, we reviewed it; we haven't review it lately. But not one of our -- we could not find one of our contracts where that was not happening.
I just read to you two subsections of the law. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Yeah. We feel that the law is being obeyed. If we have a particular one, somebody's got to point it out to us and we'll be glad to go find it, but we haven't found one yet.
Uh -- 294 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: There -- there -- every -- we feel that from what we've reviewed --
Are the provisions contained within each contact? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: The provision itself?
As the law reads. I'll read it again. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: No, I'm familiar with the law.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: I don't know that it's actually in each contract. I would have to verify that. It might be hidden --
It's supposed to be -- COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: -- in our terms and conditions. DEP. COMM. STITT: It is in our --
It's supposed to be within every single contract. 295 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: For --
Unless there's a waiver. You said you were familiar with the law. COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Okay.
I'll read it again. Every City contract, lease, license, concession agreement, franchise agreement, or agreement for financial aid with an employee described in this chapter or an amendment thereto shall contain provisions requiring the employer to comply with the requirements. Now, in terms of which employers are subject to it, the City of Philadelphia, including all its agencies, departments, and offices, for-profit service contractors that receive $10,000 or more or annual gross receipts of more than a million, nonprofit service contracts who receive a $100,000 or more, recipients of City leases and concessions with more than 25 employees, City 296 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET financial-aid recipients, and a public agency for City contracts for $10,000 or more. In each of those contracts, is that provision contained? COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: It may be in our terms and conditions. It's not in the main contract, no, but the terms and conditions are a part of the contract. What I would like to do is review this when I get back and give you a phone call, and we could get -- I want to make sure we understand it.
My question is very simple -- COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: It is simple, but I'm not sure about the first part of the contract where it says "leases" --
The only thing I need to know in the end is whether you believe you're complying with the law, if you don't know whether you're complying with the law -- 297 4/7/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - 2010 BUDGET COMMISSIONER ORTMAN: Well, I'm not sure that we are.