The person in question was not on the Land Bank board or PRA.
It's not a representative, while PHDC has an agreement with the Land Bank and with the PRA to provide staffing, PHDC does not control the Land Bank or the PRA, so.
Understood. So how are board members appointed to the PHDC?
That would -- that's not -- I couldn't tell you, that would be --
PHDC is a 501(c)3. It's in essence the city's non-profit. A lot of the services and quality of life --
And so they dispose of property for the city -- or they --
They manage all of the quality of life programming, they handle LIHTC financing, Low Income Housing Tax Credit Financing. They do the Adaptive Modification Program, Basic Systems Repair Program, Shallow Rent, RRR, I forget what that stands. DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Restore, repair, renew.
So they're -- I guess what I'm trying to say here is that they are very intricately involved --
-- in what happens in real estate in the city of Philadelphia and in other areas as well, but would you say that they are intricately involved --
In which there was a board chairman who --for PHDC, who sued for conservative or filed for conservatorship --
Okay. It sounds kind of weird to me. I'm just saying -- you, I don't know if it's just me.
If you're asking me for a determination, I am not an IG --
You know, I think people can -- you know, listen, the facts speak for themselves.
So I'm not asking you to dive into that. Just very interesting. But so as the conservatorship has drained vital resources from you all?
Even though, you know, even with the board chairman who knows how difficult it is to get these resources, has the city of Philadelphia, has PRA, you know, taken any legal action to try to figure out in Commonwealth Court or wherever, to try to figure out how do we put, you know -- you know, how do we stop the bleeding on this? Because as I understand it, you know, it's becoming more and more popular to do, to make a buck this way off of the city and people can do it, it's a hustle.
So what I can tell you is that we have -- this is a problem across the Commonwealth for other redevelopment authorities and Land Bank. I know personally that Pittsburgh has been really hurt badly by it. We have offered and testified for -- to the Urban Affairs Committee at the state level about proposed amendments to the legislation that was several years ago. That legislation has not come out of committee. So this is really a state issue to change the Act 135.
Understood. But is there any -- you know, I feel like we're kind of like sitting ducks. Like, we're not proactively looking at what proactively can we do to get out of the line of fire with this hustle that is taking resources, taking properties from people in our neighborhoods who really can't afford to fight back. If you file a conservatorship against a property in which you, you know, you've got, you know, some little old lady who can't afford to fix up her property right now, but it's her property. And so the idea that someone can come in and she's got to defend herself against -- that property's gone. They basically have taken that property from her. And so what are we doing to proactively say, you know, like, what can we do? Like, there's got to be something that we can do legally to start to get in front of this with the courts. If we can't get the legislature to do anything, how do we stop this from continuing to happen?
So I can't speak for the general public. I do appreciate the situation having been involved with several lawsuits in this matter. I know for the agencies we have done what we've been able to do, the unintended consequences for both the Land Bank and the Redevelopment Authority is that we've been assessing our structures. And if the structures are unsafe, we've moved towards demolishing them so that we can preclude any cases against conservatorship. It's highly unlikely to see conservatorship cases against vacant land. But that's also been an impact in what's going on with the inventory. I can only -- you know, I feel for private citizens that deal with that, but really that is something that I think the state legislature has to address.
One last question. Who appoints the PHDC chair? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: The city of Philadelphia does.
Who in the city? I don't -- DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Well, it -- the city of Philadelphia appoint members, but the member -- The Chair is elected by those members.
And the members of the board are selected by who? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: By the city -- by the administration.
Rue Landau was our representative. DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: A combination of the both, right?
Yeah. Yeah. We have one -- we have appointee. Rue Landau represents us on the PHDC board and said, chair member isn't chair member. She's not a member anymore.
But it was still odd that a sitting chair would actually file 14 Act 135, while they're still part of a city supported with members appointed by the city. So, you know, just want one to put that out there, but that chair is no longer there. But still, we have to be mindful when we see these types of acts because it doesn't look ethical to me, to be quite frank with you, so.
Mr. President, it feels like insider trading. And as we said before, if any one of us, I mean, this is something -- it's just basically a hustle to still property for poor people. That's what it is. And so we have to -- like, we have to protect our people. We have to do more, we have to do better, and we have to be proactive about this because otherwise it's just the hustle that's going to keep on going and until, you know, we basically push people out who are on the margins who own property in the city. Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you. And I do want to just be fair and give a little reprieve. Angel, he does run the Land Bank, and he does -- he is over top of the Land. But with all due respect, the person that runs PHDC who's over top of him that he has to report to, that we'll probably bring up next time when we have a significant amount of questions regarding PHDC, happens to be Dave Thomas.
I just wanted to be -- I just wanted to be fair in terms of us putting you in a hot spot. But at the end of the day, he reports to Dave. And so Dave, you'll be joining us at some point in time as a follow-up regarding the process as we move forward. Just being fair in terms of how we're addressing this. But thank you for addressing it based upon your experience around what Act 135. And I'm sure under the leadership of Councilmember Jeffrey J. Young, and the special committee, and the members who will be appointed will do a deeper dive and work with our state partners to protect our most vulnerable people. And no matter what anybody says, I've seen it in my own area of Point Breeze, where again, folks will organize and strategize to go after properties, the individuals having -- the individuals have been owning for years, but as the neighborhood change, I may not have that same income as you to fix the property up in a timely manner as you, right? And then it's an assault on taking the property away from the individual. So it is something that I've seen with my own eyes as a practice. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Jeffrey J. Young for a point of information.
Yes, sir. Just a point of information to Councilmember Bass's point on what we can do. So the city gets notified of every Act 135 petition that is filed. The Redevelopment Authority and/or the Land Bank is considered a party of interest. And so if the city wanted to file a petition or a response in each and every Act 135 claim that is filed, the city can try to at least become the conservator of those properties. The city has that right through the Land Bank or the Redevelopment Authority. So that is something that we can do now. We have the authority to do that now under the Act 135 law.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Dr. Nina Ahmad, Councilman Jamie Gauthier.
Thank you, Council President. I have a quick question for Commerce about --
Excuse me one second, Dr. Ahmad. Point of information, Councilmember Lozada?
Point of information, is there a way for each council person to receive a list of those properties that have been considered for conservatorship? Is there a way to find that information so that -- DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Yes.
-- we can see if there's a pattern or if there's a specific entity that is targeting specific neighborhoods? Can we see that? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Yes. Yeah.
Can you provide that information, Jessie, to the Chair and the members, please? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: We can provide information on a council district basis.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Dr. Nina Ahmad.
Thank you, Council President. A quick question, what is the position of Commerce on the proliferation of unregulated skill games? It has been a deeply troubling issue. And I know my colleague, Councilmember Curtis Jones, has worked on it. And I just wanted to know, I know there's an appeal process going on to the ruling that was made, and I wondered where Commerce was on this? DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: I'm going to invite Deputy Commerce Director Fegely to join me and provide some insights on that question.
Thank you. Karen Fegely. Yeah. We -- I mean, we are supporting the bill, we're trying to make sure that, you know, businesses are informed and that it's being enacted. I'm sorry, I don't have a whole lot more to say on it. I know that nuisance businesses continue to be an issue, you know, throughout our neighborhoods.
So the bill has not been challenged yet, the Philadelphia bill?
I'm actually -- I'm not -- I'm not prepared to answer the question. I know there's been a few different bills and they are being looked at legally, so I don't want to say more.
So if you could -- if you could please get the Chair --
We can absolutely get back to you on that. It's an important issue.
-- your position, the status, and what we are doing.
Because this is about safeguarding our communities. These are popping up everywhere and there's no regulation whatsoever, unlike our casinos and others who have to follow rules and regulations. So I would appreciate that. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Absolutely.
My next question is to Mr. Lawrence. A quick question about, I know we are all very excited about the H.O.M.E. Initiative, and I wanted to just go on the record to ask about the process for zoning board. And I had brought this up to you in a meeting we had about streamlining the process and separating potentially projects that are, you know, of a certain size as separate from smaller projects to expedite this, because this is a very ambitious goal, and I wanted to see what your thoughts were on that. DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Well, I mean, we certainly want to look at the ability to eliminate choke points or time taxing that isn't necessary, but we also see value in, you know -- we see value in -- we see value in by-right zoning, we see value in community input and the zoning code that triggers any ZBA process. But, you know, what we want to do here is make sure that we are, you know, issuing something that is historically longer to receive as far as like notices -- decisions and stuff like that. We are working to shrink that time right now.
Okay. DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: I think that we -- the next step would be figuring out what actually is worth going to zoning, and what's not worth going to zoning. However, we don't want to jump too fast into making those types of determinations.
I appreciate that, but, you know, this has been an ongoing problem, not new. So I think we need to expedite how we are doing this in order for us to reach these ambitious goals, because this has been a question that has been ongoing for many councils. And so I just wanted to put it on the record that we need some action on from your part to identify how this might be done, and whether it needs, you know, legislative work or it can be done within the department, we would love to get an update from you as to what that process would look like and what is the timeline for that.
Thank you, Councilman -- Councilwoman. John Mondlak, Deputy Director of Planning and Development. You've raised a very good point. We are very focused on right now three big areas related to zoning board of adjustments. The time it takes to get in and get a hearing, the time it takes to get to that hearing, because we have a lot of continuances, and then the time it takes from that hearing to when you get your notice of decision, which is when you could actually do something with it. The significant delays are not primarily in the front end, but we're looking at the front end too, because we want to streamline that. And timeline, I would say that by the summer, we expect to be able to shrink a lot of those, or at least be in the middle one where you're waiting and you have continuances, I think is going to take a little bit of a culture shift about how we deal with continuances. But the notice of decisions, there's a mix of technology, and there's a mix of labor that we're starting to sort through. And so I would say that by summertime, we expect to see changes in that. And if we don't have changes in the fall, then -- so we should be talking somewhat regularly. But maybe in the fall, if we identify legislative fixes that might be helpful in that process, we would absolutely take you up on that offer to have those conversations.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I just want to say, housing is such a fundamental need in our city. Anything that we can do without obviously trampling on rights of people to understand the process is critical, because, you know, we're working with things like child separation in the Department of Human Services. Part of it is because there's lack of housing and families aren't able to cope with being a family because of that, so we have a lot of really troubling issues that are intersecting with the ZBA, even though the ZBA might not see that, but it does make a difference. So I would really appreciate anything you can do to expedite the process so we can get these housing units done.
Absolutely, Council. And we do have a new executive director that is hyper- focused on the data and how do we make those changes. So thank you. DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: And just want to recognize that, you know, looking at ourselves, you know, we have this executive order out and it's tasking different 18 departments throughout the city to 19 look at themselves as far as process 20 refinement. And we're certainly one 21 of them, I just want to be clear 22 about that. The Department of 23 Planning and Development is looking 24 at itself in terms of process refinement.
Thank you. And so we're going to be wrapping up soon, but let me get these last individuals on the record. Councilmember Jamie Gauthier, Councilman Jeffrey J. Young, and we will finish and wrap up after Majority Leader Richardson, then we will go into our break. We know we have Streets and Fleet for the afternoon session.
Thank you, Council President. My questions are for Commerce. One interest of this body has been trying to find ways to support our extensive network of community development corporations, whom the city relies on to implement and promote many of its housing and economic development programs. Last week, I, with the majority of my colleagues, introduced and co-sponsored a bill 8 to mandate that commerce offered either an annual grant program or expand the CDC tax credit program to provide consistent operational support that isn't tied to a specific program or contract to CDCs. And just to give a bit more context, we're doing this because although the housing crisis is grave, and although gentrification is growing, the support for CDCs philanthropic and otherwise has decreased greatly from a few decades ago. So what do you think of the -- of that idea, and is that something that commerce would be willing to support? And then next, another big need for our CDCs is a quick strike acquisition fund. This would be money that is flexible and easily accessible for CDCs and small businesses who want to compete against for-profit speculators, of which there are many to acquire property on neighborhood commercial corridors and in-communities before it's too late and the fast-moving market takes over. So what do you think of that idea, and is that in the budget?
All right. Thanks, Councilwoman. To the first point -- DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Introduce yourself.
Oh, Karen Fegely, Deputy Commerce Director. To the first point, we strongly believe in the importance of CDCs. We rely on them. I mean, the city relies on these community organizations to really carry out work in our communities as I know that district councilmembers do, too. And so we recognize also the need for operating dollars, right? It's really hard for non-profits to just exist, sort of like grant -- based on grants for specific projects. That said, we partner with the revenue department to administer the existing CDC tax credit program. That plus the CDC Economic Development Support grant that is governed by the existing legislation, we provide operating funds to 47 CDCs on an annual basis at $100,000 a year. So it's really important, we feel really good about that being able to get out to that many organizations. I just read your bill and I know it asks for additional -- to raise that level and also to raise the number of organizations, and also increase the types of organizations that would qualify. And so it's something I think we're, you know, we'll be meeting with you about and PACDC, I think we will pull in DPD, because it's -- if it's really -- it's going beyond economic development to organizations that do housing counseling and community organizing and so forth, so I think that's a little bit out of Commerce's realm. But so we'll be talking about it.
We would love to talk more to you about that. I just want to note that although we love the existing tax credit program, that amount has not grown with inflation, it's been a $100,000 for a really long time.
And I think this new idea would pair greatly with what we're trying to do with housing. Thank you.
Okay. And to your second question about acquisition, again, totally agree, this is an issue. One of the things commerce is always trying to do is build community wealth, is to create tools and vehicles for locally owned businesses as well as community organizations to buy property, right, that gets to a lot of the discussions that have come up here today. We have a couple of programs doing that right now. The -- our CREAL, Commercial Real Estate Acquisition Loan Fund and our Neighborhood Economic Development grants, they're not as fast as the market is, I get that. And so, yes, we are looking at different ways. We are exploring something to use our Philadelphia Business Lending Network and sort of a combination with the Catalyst Fund, to do something where we would be able to do something quicker, we're hoping in partnership with banks. That's a concept. I'd love to talk to you about it, but it's not -- it's not ready to roll out yet.
We'd love to talk more. Thank you so much, Mr. President.
Thank you. Member Young, then Majority Leader Richardson.
Thank you. So I'm not going to belabor the Act 135 stuff, you know, we're going to get to that in a future date. But I do have a question about the Shallow Rent Program. Can you talk to us about, I guess the over the years, the decrease in that -- in the Shallow Rent Program, and the future of that program and where those funding will be coming from? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: So as Mark Dodds, Deputy Director for DHCD walks up, I do want to indicate that Shallow Rent intends to live in the Home plan. We do plan on continuing and investing in that program, so we do see a lot of value in that, but Mark can talk more about the specifics when it comes to current funding.
Yeah. We're -- good afternoon. We heard a lot at a recent council hearing around the need for increased funding around Shallow Rent. We've also conducted a study in collaboration with PHDC that speaks to the benefits of the program. Historically, we've funded it with Housing Trust Fund, I believe, over the last four years or so. And, you know, we -- this is a program that seems to be working very well, and we look to support it with additional funding through the home bond.
So is this additional funds or is it basically a reallocation from the traditional housing trust fund money, and now we're -- instead of using Housing Trust Fund, we're going to be using money that we have to pay interest on?
It would be in addition to the current housing trust fund funding that supports the program.
And I guess we'll get into this at the home hearing or the housing hearing, essentially, because I'm just looking at the numbers, it's about 2.6 million is allocated for FY -- that was in FY25. And I'm just trying to make sure that we -- I mean, I actually, I think that program is something needs to be increased, particularly, you know, it helps the most -- the users of that program are centered in North Philadelphia for the most part. Rather than the 5th District, 7th, 8th, north Philly uses that program. So I just want to make sure that that's a program that the constituents know how to access that program, right? Because Housing Trust Fund is a fund that typically all these programs are ran out of, but with this new H.O.M.E Initiatives, you know, we just want to make sure it doesn't get caught up in the bureaucratic process, and, you know, in the red tape of trying to access, you know, money to allow folks to stay in their communities.
Thank you. Yeah. And Jessie in -- when the event that we get to the borrowing component and, you know, we come to an agreement, we want to get this money out as quickly as possible. DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Absolutely.
And to as many hands as possible. And so I echo and I concur with Councilmember Young is saying. And I'm quite sure that's the administration's mission as well. It's much money on people hands to ramp up addressing the housing crisis here in the city of Philadelphia. Some folks say, well, it's not a housing crisis, it's affordability crisis. I say, we need to grow jobs, right, and also used to growing of the jobs to address the housing crisis, because I know day in and day out in my office upstairs in the 2nd Councilmatic District, and we are addressing the issue, we've always -- I'm getting a text message from a lady -- a young lady right now, can I get a response back? Because I need housing, right? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Yeah.
A gentleman last week with his kids, I need housing, right? DIRECTOR LAWRENCE: Yeah.
And it's not -- and it's all spectrums. And so -- but when you have the chance to have that house that's built new from the ground up and become that first time home buyer, right, that also has built generational wealth. And so we can do both, but we definitely have a housing crisis here in the city of Philadelphia. And so I state that for the record, and I want to stand on that. With that being said, I'm going to let -- I'm going to let my Majority Leader -- how you say a moment of privilege for the House? I'm going to acknowledge my Majority Leader wrap us up.
Thank you. Thank you, Council President. I knew there was some level of consternation and discomfort among the members, so that was one option for that instance. So at any rate, thank you very, very much for this opportunity. I wanted to just go back to two things for Commerce. First, I wanted to just notate for the record that for Section 20, of your detail under the Department of Commerce, there's a one-time only workforce development line item under the General Fund, Class 200 for $10 million. So I just wanted to notate that if we could get a response there. And then secondly, you all know that we had a hearing that was attended by 10 members of City Council regarding these stores that we are dealing with around drug paraphernalia. And it's an issue that I know Councilmember Bass and both Councilmember Phillips have been continuing to work on. And it's an issue that I deeply care about and have introduced legislation and passed legislation on. But we are inundated with these stores selling nothing but drug paraphernalia, and have worked closely with the Nuisance Business Task Force with Health and Law and L&I and with Commerce, you all were out on the tours as well. But I wanted to talk about not only your interaction with the Nuisance Business Task Force, but the proliferation of these skill game machines, and how you all are thinking about what's next around that topic. We have grave concern around the drug paraphernalia stores, but now we know that also the skill games conversation is continuing at the commonwealth level. You know, there was a memo sent out by a top senate leadership in the Commonwealth on Republican side of the house regarding the taxation of skill games and how that would relate to increased funding for a number of line items for cities and towns across the Commonwealth. So if you could just speak to the drug paraphernalia issue and the skill games issue. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Well, thank you for the question. I'll invite any of my colleagues from Commerce that want to join me to speak about it from a, you know, legislative perspective. But I will speak to it from how we think about, you know, what I'll -- what I'll say is a business that is additive and a business that is subtractive, right? And so the Commerce Department is committed to helping any business that wants to grow to do so. However, there are some businesses that are extracting value from neighborhoods. And so in that context, our commitment is to work very actively with L&I. We have a very, very close partnership with L&I, boots on the ground, as well as with the police department to go after any business that crosses a line where we believe, you know, frankly, they don't deserve to be doing business in the city of Philadelphia. So when it comes to, you know, action, boots on the ground in partnership with L&I, Commerce is working hand-in-hand to solve problems because we do get complaints from other businesses and we get complaints from residents about businesses. And so I'll mention that. And, Karen, not sure if you want to speak to it from a more legislative perspective.
Sure. I'll jump in. Karen Fegely, actually, and thank you, Councilman Gilmore- Richardson. You've sort of helped correct my last answer to Councilman Ahmad about the -- that the state -- I was notified, the state did -- the Skilled Games Bill was overturned by the Commonwealth Court. But the state is considering regulating it and taxing it as you've spoken to. And so I think that's something we need to pay attention to. You know, as Director Martinez said, we do work closely with our partners on the ground, the corridor managers, our own staff, and other city departments. There's a nuisance business committee. We -- our Mayor's business action team goes out for like, sort of the education sweeps along with the L&I quality of life. And we really -- I feel like one of our strongest tools is thanks to this council with the nuisance business law that allows the police in coordination with all those partners to kind of, you know, to give these notices, it really lets a business -- because some of these businesses are victims of their location and they do right. So it gives them a opportunity to try to do the right thing, but when they don't do the right thing, we can shut them down. And so I think that's something that, yeah, we're really happy that the police are working on and we're supporting. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Do you want to talk about the meeting we just had with L&I about data and analytics?
You can. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: So a project that we are discussing with the commissioner of L&I is the utilization of data and analytics, and targeting businesses more efficiently. There is -- there is a -- I think there is an opportunity for us to organize data in a way that allows us to pinpoint where the, you know, hottest issues are. And so in addition to working together and leveraging information that comes to us through the traditional channels, I do believe that there's an opportunity for us to be smarter. And I mean, to use data in a smarter way to target businesses proactively. And so I'm really hopeful that Commerce will continue that conversation with L&I. And Commerce is willing to invest resources in a consultant to make that happen because it is a growth generator, right? By getting rid of businesses that are destructive, we actually help other businesses right on that corridor grow. So we're prepared to continue that conversation and invest in using data in a smarter manner.
Thank you. Thank you very, very much, and I look forward to working with you all on the package of bills that we're preparing as a result of that hearing.
And thank you. As we wrap up, I just want to follow-up on Majority Richardson's statement as well as Councilmember Dr. Nina Ahmad, and especially Cindy Bass. We want to be partners in this mission, and I hope that my advocates who are advocating will be partners with us to really go after the bad actors who I believe are preying on black and brown communities. These are individuals that sell death and destruction to our communities. And folks sit back, you know, with a blind eye. At the end of the day you got smoke shops, you got people buying crack vials -- I mean, crack, smoke pipes, you got fake guns, where one young man was just shot inside my neighborhood for carrying a fake gun by a police officer. And so we want to be partners with you along those efforts, and hopefully those who advocate for social justice will participate in going after the bad actors that prey on our community. So I just want to just say that. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Thank you, yes.
So we'll want to partner with you. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: We're 100 percent aligned.
But we won't see you anymore. And so we'll see you in another capacity, but could we give Commissioner Alba Martinez a round of applause, please? DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
We thank you for your advocacy. We thank you for your work. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You will see me. Philadelphia and serving Philadelphia is a passion regardless of the seat. So I'm --
Thank you. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: -- I'm very honored to serve. And thank you, all of you, for your extraordinary leadership. I'm very proud to be a Philadelphian.
Thank you for your service. DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: Thank you.
You're one of the special kind, Dawn Summerville as well, helped me with my Keystone -- Keystone zoning work that we've been doing throughout this Councilmatic District. And so thank you to Commerce Department. Thank you for Planning, Jessie, you and your team for being here as well. We will recess until 2:15. (Council at recess.)
Good afternoon. We will now continue our budget hearing. And the afternoon will consist of testimony from the Department of Public and the Department of Fleet Services. Ms. Loughead, will you please call on the next panel?
Joseph Brasky, Commissioner for the Department of Public Property, and we'll also have Joseph Rosati, Commissioner for the Department of Fleet Services come up as well. So before we get started, Joe Brasky, I want to say congratulations on officially being appointed as the Commissioner of Public Property. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Thank you, Council President.
It always warms my heart when we see the elevation of individual who comes from that great part of Philadelphia known as South Philly. We also have Commissioner Del Rossi as well from South Philly, Commissioner of Streets, correct? Okay. Also, Commissioner DHS Kimberly Ali from South Philly. So it's always good to see some homegrown talent in City Council. And also to Mr. Joseph Rosati, Commissioner of Fleet Services, I want to thank you for always working in partnership with City Council, just to make sure that we're doing everything that we can do to have smooth operations in terms of fleet services and just keeping us abreast of all the things that we need to do for our operations to work efficiently for my members here in City Council. I just want to publicly just thank you and acknowledge you for your hard work and congratulate you, Joe. And so state your name for the record and please begin your testimony. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Thank you, Council President. My name is Joe Brasky, Commissioner Department of the Public Property. Good afternoon, Council President members of City Council, I am Joseph Brasky, Commissioner of Public Property. I want to thank Mayor Parker for naming me to the permanent position of commissioner last month. Thank you, Mayor Parker. It is a pleasure to appear before City Council today in support of public property's FY26 budget request. I would like to thank Council President Johnson and members of Council for their support -- for the support that they provide throughout the year being that voice for the communities that we provide services for, so I thank you. As you have our written testimony which highlights the many accomplishments and plans of the department, I would only like to add one thing that is not in the written testimony, and it is about my team. The Department of Public Property has many outstanding employees that tend to fly under the radar and I would like to acknowledge them publicly for their commitment to public service. I am very proud to be a part of a team that shows so much care and commitment to their professions while continuing to support our mission of responsibly serving our city's workforce and community by providing quality facilities and workspaces of which we are proud. The DPP team performed flawlessly during the change of leadership in the department. It was nothing less than I expected from such a dedicated team. So I thank you for indulging me. I'll be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
And thank you very much. And so the space that I'm going to ask you questions on I'm really going to pivot and allow Councilmember Dr. Ahmad really to take the lead, but I want to set the tone. Where are we when it comes to building the infrastructure for EV vehicles, right, in the city of Philadelphia? So expanding more EV vehicles and also the charging stations as we focus on a more climate sustainable -- a more sustainable climate as it relates to us addressing pollution in our city. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Sure. Yeah, I'd be happy to answer that.
I was trying to say the reduction of us using gas power. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: No, I got you. So I'm glad to have Joe Rosati here, Commissioner of fleet Services. He's been working on some stuff and he'll talk more about that. But we are partnering with him with the EV charging also.
I'm moving too fast. Joe, go ahead and do your testimony first. Excuse me. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Good afternoon, Council President Johnson and distinguished members of City Council, I'm Joseph Rosati, Commissioner for the Department of Fleet Services. Joining me today are Dr. Kay Wilson, Deputy Commissioner for Administration and John De Leo, Deputy Commissioner for Operations. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on the Department of Fleet Services fiscal year 2026 operating budget. The Department of Fleet Services FY26 general fund budget request is $77.85-million which is 7.48-million less than FY25 estimated obligations. FY26 operating budget request includes 22.97-million in class 100, 7.53-million in class 200 and 47.35-million in class 3 and 400. The Department of Fleet Services has 343 dedicated employees who work diligently to provide safe and reliable vehicles and equipment for the operating departments to work toward the Mayor's vision of a safer, cleaner, greener Philadelphia with economic opportunity for all. You have my detailed written testimony, I would be happy to answer any questions. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Commissioner. And so I'll direct that question to you regarding EV charging stations and also expanding our EV car fleet. So give us an update on where we're at. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: So where we're at right now we have about 400 battery electric vehicles in the fleet. We have 400 -- as far as alternative fuels go, I might as well give it give -- it give it all to you there's 1,201 alternative fuel vehicles out of 6,800 vehicles there's 400 battery electric vehicles, 34 compressed natural gas trash compactors and 767 hybrid electric vehicles HEVs. A major -- large majority of those are police vehicles. As far as the electric vehicle infrastructure goes and our plans, our goal is to have about a thousand battery electric vehicles in service by the end of the Parker Administration. In order to do that we got to build a a fast charging infrastructure. We currently have one fast charger uh at 26th and Master and we plan to build four more. That'll give us the ability to charge a thousand plus electric vehicles. So as that infrastructure gets built, we can expand the EVs to our goal to a 1,000.
Okay. Thank you very much. Commissioner Joe Brasky, just a brief question and I'll turn it over to my members. Public -- the Public Property Department is planning to on board -- you have a high school CTE program, CCME to work to transition trades to trainee. Give me an idea of that particular plan and the status of it. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Thank you, Council President. Yes, we've already have initiated that in the past years. Probably ten years, ago we started the program with the School District of Philadelphia. We have at least three to five accomplishments that they were handed off to us from when they were 16-years-old. Mothers dropped them off to here in City Hall and we took them under our wing. And we let them work for us. They worked one day a week during the winter and then and through the summer, they work full-time to work with us. And we didn't specifically hand them a trade, we let them work with different people and different trades throughout our facilities so they get a grasp of what they want to do and not just say here you're doing plumbing or carpentry. So just for one success story we had, he started with us out of Edison, came across, didn't know what he wanted to do. Worked with us, now he's 23-years-old, he's HVAC II, working for the city of Philadelphia. We paid for his -- the city paid for his schooling to help him with his trades. So we're all for bringing people in and we also have a few in our field locations that work with trades and, you know, just develop them to see what they want to do in life and see how -- and also be like a father figure to them kind of, you know, teach them the right way to do things, save money for lunch, stuff like that. So yeah, we're all for it and we're looking to expand it. And then with the Mayor's initiative with the Community College of Philadelphia, we're trying to build off of that because we need good young bodies to join the trades field.
That's exactly what I was going to ask you about the Municipal College. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yep.
And so there will be obviously there's a partnership for some synergy correct. We're going to you -- we're going to use everything that's available to us to bring trades people in. It seems the younger generation not saying they don't want to do it, but I don't think they're aware of it. So I feel that's what we have to do to go out and get them and show them what's involved. You can make good money, make a good career especially with the city of Philadelphia, so that's our recruitment effort and we'll do we'll use any available avenue that we have.
Total number of participants to date? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: For us, I would say just through the School District of Philadelphia we have probably -- we probably had eight to ten.
Okay. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: And it's all dependent on the recruitment effort of it and we do the job fairs. And so we are -- and I think now that with the Community College involved, I think we'll get better feeders, so we're looking to double that, if we can.
What's the current partnership with the School District to expand that number even totally separate from the Community College to go from to 50? 4 COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Oh, 5 sure, I would love to -- I would 6 love to do that. And any way that 7 Council could help us, that would be 8 awesome. Our HR department is 9 actively in communication with the 10 School District of Philadelphia, and we told them send as many as we can get because we have the trades to handle it. I mean, we can, you know, groom them. So I'm more than willing to expand as much as we can.
And last question. How do we deal with our inventory and I see that we have a significant amount of vacant inventory that's public property-wise, right, at least of the data that's given to me right here. But I want to get an idea of let's say we have a quasi city agency that we fund, right, and we use our budget to fund their operation at a site that's technically own -- it's owned by a private entity, but we pretty much still funding them to pay us back our own individual money, if that makes sense, right? I give you Public Defenders so to speak. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Okay.
All right. They get funding from the city, but a significant amount of money goes toward their rent and also paying taxes. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Okay.
So we have these vacancies, why not let them come in one of our publicly owned parcels, right, properties, rehab a building, right, that the city owns, and we can actually save that money. That's basically what I'm getting at. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: We can. I don't -- I mean, I'd have to find out more information the details of, you know, the funding involved of, you know, supporting them, and then bringing them in. So we would have to really work on that I had to really get back to you on that answer, as far as give you a full round fool proof answer, than just throwing something out there and saying something we can't commit to.
Well, that I appreciate. It's just something I observed and just said: Okay, well if we're funding an organization that's doing a city that's doing a city service, but they also paying the same -- they're paying rent to a landlord, right? Which is basically to me, if we have public land, we should build in-house. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Sure.
Save that money because we wind up having to pay the taxes. Now, how are we using our own money to pay the taxes -- COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Right.
For a quasi city agency, which basically we're paying to pay ourselves back. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Sure. Sure.
That's basically what I'm getting at. Like, well, why are we -- it just doesn't make sense to me. So I really want to do a deeper dive. And not just the PD, the Public Defenders office, that's just an example. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Sure example.
But I'm sure we have other agencies that we're actually funding -- COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Sure.
And then when they, you know, fall back in their taxes, we're actually paying to pay ourselves. But we have these vacancies, which means if we do an analysis of our inventory, then maybe we can start moving individuals off private developers on property and being in-house, and I think that would probably save us a considerable amount of money. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: I agree. There's a lot of plans that we're trying to develop it's just -- but I'll get you the information and we'll get back to you.
It's something to consider under your regime. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Dr. Nina Ahmad, then I'm gonna go to Councilwoman Jamie Gauthier, then Councilmember Richardson. All right.
Thank you, Council President. Thank you so much for being here. Music to my ears, a thousand EVs. Do we have a time frame for that, for getting to a thousand EVs for our fleet? COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Well, yeah, the time frame is our -- well, we're building the infrastructure. So by the end of June, we should have another fast charging station in Southwest Philly. And in FY26, we hope to have the other three built. And once the once that infrastructure is built, then it's a matter of funding and getting the vehicles ordered.
And are these Level 3 chargers you're looking at? COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Yes.
For some reason I thought we had three Level 3 chargers or maybe it was one with two already in the works. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Well, I call them fast chargers, we have one fast charger that is -- that is operational right now. That's being used at 26th and Master, that's our Municipal fast charger. We also have a vendor that we're using for fast charging as well until we can get our other sites up and running, and then we'll wean ourselves off the vendor.
I just wanted to kind of get a sense of how many and maybe, you know, this answer. How many fast Level 3 chargers we have in the entire city; would you know that number? COMMISSIONER ROSATI: I wouldn't know the private companies. I could find out.
Okay. Only because that has been an impediment for people to, you know, use EVs. One of our biggest issues has been maintenance and availability of these things. So in your experience I remember there was a time where there were long lines of city cars waiting to get charged. Hoping that has changed. I wanted to kind of get your feedback on what issues have you faced? And in terms of getting to Level 3 charges, I know there's a -- we have to talk to the Fire Department we have to talk to PECO. Can you just kind of tell us a little bit of the landscape you're facing trying to ramp up to Level 3. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Yeah, it's -- it's a challenge because if they have to drop -- if we have to get PECO to drop a line. In a perfect situation we use the power from the facility. So we were able to do that with the one at 26th and Master and we were able to get that one up and running quickly. But it was also an issue with parts as well. It seemed like at one point you couldn't get any parts to build the fast charging station. The parts were on order for a long time. So it -- that's kind of -- that's the parts issue kind of -- kind of, went away. But yeah, there's challenges with permits and whether or not like in Southwest Philly at on Norwood Drive at our body shop where we're going to have another fast charger, PECO has to drop a line for us.
So the hold up is getting a permit, you said? COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Permits and then --
That would be L&I? COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Permits, yeah, through L&I. And also getting -- getting the electricity necessary to run the machine.
And the reason why I ask you all this is for lessons learned for the rest of our communities who are not -- who don't work for the city because the goal is to democratize EVs, right, so that people who live in row homes don't have access to all this and look to work with, you know, gas stations to have availability like everybody else just goes to the gas station to fill up. So I would love for you to be a partner along with the Department of Transportation and Sustainability. I wanted to know what sort of engagement your department has with Office of Sustainability? COMMISSIONER ROSATI: We work with the Office of Sustainability to get grants and we provide data on the electric vehicles and all our CNG vehicles, as well.
And are we phasing out the CNGs or we're holding on to them 'til -- COMMISSIONER ROSATI: We're -- we're it's -- it's an alternative fuel.
Yeah, much cleaner. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: It's much cleaner than running diesel. So we're going to continue on until we fill that site. We can we can put up to 70 trucks at that site. Currently we have, I believe it's 34 trucks.
So just wanted to say thank you for being at the forefront of doing this. We will look to you as a template for the rest of the city because if we're going to reduce our carbon footprint, we have no other choice, but to go this way. So thank you so much for all the work and I look forward to working with your -- both your departments to look at infrastructure needs for the rest of the city. Thank you. Thank you, Council President.
Thank you. The chair recognized Councilman Jamie Gauthier.
Thank you, Council President. Good afternoon to both of you. My first questions are for Public Property. Even though the Land Bank gets a lot of attention Public Property is still the largest owner of public vacant land and, frankly, our office finds that if we're trying to achieve an activation or a disposition for a property owned by Public Property response times can be very long and more protracted than if we're working with just a Land Bank. So as a new commissioner, can you tell us of your vision and strategy for the surplus land that the city owns? And what can be done to make sure that these processes work smoother for DPP owned vacant properties? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Thank you, Councilmember. Yes, we did come up with an initiative through Philly Stat 360 for the vacant lots or our surplus vacant lots. We heard from Councilmembers of the certain problems or issues they have overgrown weeds, fencing, concrete. I hear you. So I do hear you. That was news to me when I first came in as the interim position. So I do recognize it and we and we made that one of our goals just for that reason. Just to help improve the looks of the vacant properties, make sure they're secure so they're not dumping. So that is one of our properties. As far as the Land Bank uh, we can work with them to do that --
But that's not what I'm asking. I'm not asking about the Land Bank, just surplus vacant. I'm asking about your surplus properties and how we can both better secure them within our neighborhoods and how we can improve the process for dispositions and cut down on the timing. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Totally understand.
And it what are what's what are your goals as a new commissioner around those items? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: The goals I have we set forth are just making sure we have the exact numbers of vacant lands and if you look on different sites, it's different numbers. So we want to know what sites are ours, we want to know which district, councilmatic district they are in. And, kind of, map that to the councilmatic district, so we have more of a hands-on type feel of what's going on. And like I said then, once we go from there through funding and working with councilmembers to see what we could do, see what we can help. Do they want gardening, do they want, you know, for kids to do little activities. There's endless possibilities for vacant land and it cost us money to fund to upkeep the land so what we could put it to use. And then so we're able to help with you guys as far as making it safe and secure and not a bad sore to the eyes.
That sounds great. Do you have a projected timeline on those plans? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: We started last year just from noticing the calls we get from the Councilmembers and different districts. So we did -- we did maybe five. I mean, I'm not going to say it's an overwhelming amount, but that was concrete pavements that we did because it was, you know, elderly was trying to walk, so we took care of all that. Fencing, we cut trees, overgrown trees. So we're looking to expand and we're also look looking to hire a GIS analyst so that could work and put all them numbers together to, you know, format our plan.
I guess I'm asking -- it's good that you're starting on that, but you talked about wanting to get more of a handle on what the inventory is, where it is, what the needs are, what is your timing for that type of strategy? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: I would say give us -- I would say through the year. Give us a year to build it out and so we get a full handle. I mean, basically we have to go district to district to verify these lots still exist because some may be developed on already. So we need the right numbers to secure it, and then we can start building it out. So I'm hoping within a year we make an effort because we're being held accountable by Philly 360 also.
Thank you. We look forward to partnering with you on that. Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you very much. The chair recognizes Councilman Majority Jamie -- excuse me, Majority Leader Katherine Gilmore-Richardson.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Council President. And thank you for putting the question on the record regarding the high school internship program and the young people. I wanted to put a question on the record for Councilmember Landau for Public Property, and then I'll go to my questions. Councilmember Landau would like to know, "During the committee on legislative oversight hearing in February, the Councilmember asked about why there is an apprenticeship or a pipeline to paving and milling streets? So those things are done in-house as opposed to having contractors which delay the process. She says, "One of the Department of Public Property goals for FY26 is to recruit high school students from CTE and CCME programs to enter trades trainee positions." So for the Department of Public from Councilmember Landau, will you commit to creating this program in fiscal year '26, and what funding is needed for an initial cohort? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Thank you, Councilmember. As far as just the milling of streets and all, that would be a Streets department trade, I guess or job duty. But we have been committed to working with the School District to bring interns in and since we are short on trades, which I just, you know, which I explained to Council President, we are fully committed to bring on school kids to train them to make them -- I would love for you to meet some of the kids that we had dealings with. I mean, it's unbelievable the turnaround and it just makes us feel good as a department to make sure to see these kids 23-years-old making good money at a good job. So we're fully committed through the CTE, anything that's possible for us to bring young talent in. We have -- we have experienced guys to train them.
That'll be great and then I just ask that you follow with Councilmember Landau. I wanted to make sure I got that on the record for her this week. For me I wanted to start with Department of Public Property Commissioner Brasky, you know, I have a special affinity for you guys. You all have done just a yeoman's job for us internally here in City Council. And you know that I have to put Raheem Stoner, may he continue to rest in peace on the record, for all of the work he did on our behalf. We lost him at the onset of COVID, but I remember he redid our entire office one summer in 581. And so I just want to always uplift his name and appreciate the work that he did and the work that all of you continue to do for us, particularly in City Hall. I wanted to add in we're still missing our poster. We Mr. Guy. So I just wanted to put that on the record because we miss Mr. Guy. He was the best at making drapes and helping with our furniture very. Quickly though, and this will be for both of you and for Fleet, Commissioner Rosati, I just want to thank you all so much. And Martin, who we call all the time and Robert from your department and all the guys in Fleet. But particularly Martin, who I call a whole bunch. We thank you so much for your work with the city vehicles in particular. And I have to put on the record that I'm just so appreciative of what you all did on my behalf when I had the unfortunate incident when the person broke into the city vehicle and stole all of my belongings. You all were just there and really, really helpful to us and I also wanted to again put this on the record for DPP, Rick. Is Rick here? Because I didn't see him today. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yeah Rick's here.
Oh, I can't see you past the chair. I'm sorry. Thank you so much for all of your work and everything you do on our behalf. So really quickly for both departments, how many career and technical education graduates have you hired in your department? I know we visited some students at Mastbaum that are now working in Fleet Management. But particularly students who have taken advantage of the five-point preference to receive city employment, both in fleet and in DPP. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Last -- last fiscal year we brought in 30 high school interns and they do the two-year program, and then eventually they'll get a civil service job as an automotive apprentice.
Okay. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: And this year we plan to do the same another 30.
Okay. Excellent. And then I guess they could take advantage of the CTE point preference when they apply for city service, correct? But I think we changed the specs previously with HR so that it lines up directly with the experience they get while they're there for the internship. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: These particular kids as long as they do well in school and get the correct grades they need and they pass our criteria at the shop level, they automatically get the civil service job.
Right. Right. Okay. Okay. I just wanted to make sure. And then for DPP because I know we have a real dire particularly in the skill trades. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yes. So with inception as I was saying, it was like 8 to 10 people that we had graduate through. So we try to -- like you said, they work one day a week through the school year, summer months they become full-time. And then as we go through, they begin to grow, they begin to hone in on their trade that they feel like. We give them a choice of everything. They can do whatever they want. Painter, upholstery, upholstery is a dying breed. But I mean, the plumbers, HVAC, they look for making the money, too, so I mean -- which I can't fault them. But and then once they become comfortable, they go with -- they get into the trade they like and they enjoy. And then through high school they work, repeat the process, once they graduate they become a trades helper. And then once they become a trades helper, we start getting them a little bit more involved and just being mentored from the trades people of, you know, certain specific trades. And then we -- and then they just continue to develop, and then they transition to a trades helper, and then we pay for them to go to school. They can go to Orleans or they get reimbursed, and they become what -- they determine what they want to be. So yeah, then they got full-time employment.
Okay. And then the other thing I wanted to ask particularly for DPP is how we connect them with the trade so that they have, you know, say for instance, they have like a union card so they could be a part of. But is it that they're part of DC -- COMMISSIONER BRASKY: They're part of DC33.
DC33. Got it. Okay. Okay. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yeah we don't have specific trade card holders, it's just DC33 encompasses all our trade workers.
Okay. Okay. Received. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: So they're automatically in, you know, once they get in their union benefits, the whole deal, like a regular city employee, civil service job. Yeah, and then it's up to them to continue their -- what they want to be. Sure.
Right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very, very much both of you. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: No 12 problem. Thank you for the kind words for Raheem, too.
Oh my gosh, listen -- COMMISSIONER BRASKY: He's missed. I remember clearly working in your office back in the day. Yep.
Yeah, that was a fun summer so thank you all so much. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yup. Yup. No problem. Anytime.
Thank you. The Chair now recognizes Councilmember Jim Harrity, then Councilmember Kendra Brooks.
Thank you, Council President. Hello, Joe and Joe. What are you's doing, brothers? Thank you for your service. Always like seeing you two because I know you all both came up through the ranks. Especially Joe, I remember you back in the day when I was in the managing director's office over at the shop coming to see you on the way. Yeah, yeah, you guys do good. And thank you for everything you do. And Ricky is always wonderful, man, to deal with. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yup. Yes, he is.
He's good people. So I thank you. My -- my questions I -- I have two and real quick just trying to figure some stuff out. And they're basically both the same question for both of you, just a little different spin. Your testimony indicates. Public Property, that the city has a goal of 37% of the contract dollars to go towards minority disabled and women owned businesses, but some of the biggest contracts from FY25, like Elliot Lewis's million 16 contract to maintain the Kensington 17 Wellness Center, and that's just an 18 example, has had a 0% participation 19 rate. Can you explain that discrepancy? And then Fleet Management, the same thing your testimony indicates Fleet Management has a 10% requirement for minority women and disability goal, but the largest professional services contracts this year had a zero participation rate can you explain these discrepancies? COMMISSIONER BRASKY: The Elliott Lewis one, Councilmember, thank you for the question. That was the new one for the River Riverview Wellness Center, is that the one you're questioning?
Yeah, that's -- that -- I'm not questioning that, that was just an example. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: No, that's fine.
I'm just trying to get where we have that we're trying to get to a 37% goal for the year and it's -- right now -- COMMISSIONER BRASKY: No, I think we'll get to that point. I think it's just the contract's fairly new. It's only been since January and they're filling the staff actually. And I think it's going to take time to get the first quarter numbers, if that makes sense, and then we'll have data for that. And I could send that data over to you as we get more numbers of their participation rates and stuff like that.
Yeah, I was just curious because I know like that the Black Doctor's Consortium is there. They are minority and women, you know, so that's -- COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Yes. Yes.
Yeah, you know, what I'm saying. I'm just trying to figure out the rest of the services and, you know, making sure that we hit a goals. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: No, that's incomplete for us.
It's -- you know what I'm saying. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Sure. No, I got you. It's incomplete data and as you can see for PPSB the uh police headquarters. Elliott Lewis is also the vendor over there and their participation numbers are up to queue and above average. So once we have that data it will reflect our first quarter numbers. It's just a new contract and we're trying to -- they're trying to build out and get their contractors on board. And so we'll have that data when we submit our numbers.
And you're confident that they'll hit those numbers, 37% doesn't seem too -- too grandiose. COMMISSIONER BRASKY: Confident, yes. Them numbers have been consistent since they had the contract for police headquarters the past four or five years.
Beautiful. Thank you. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: Yeah. Fleet has always had trouble with our OEO participation. We -- we just don't get the -- the vendors that that will bid on our contracts to sell us parts, to sell us vehicles, but we keep trying. We're work -- we work with OEO to try and do better with that.
Yeah, I -- yeah, I guess I get it. It's a specialized kind of thing because it actually is vehicles. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: A lot of the -- a lot of the automotive vendors that that bid on our vehicles, they're -- in the automotive industry it's a territorial thing.
Right. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: So, you know, only a certain Ford dealership will bid on our stuff.
Yeah, because they have a deal with the -- I get it. Yeah, it's part of their contract. COMMISSIONER ROSATI: And nobody else can bid on their territory so it's that, too, that makes I think it difficult for the participation that we're looking for.
To make it -- yeah, because the -- I get it. All right. Okay. All right. And maybe we need to start training some of these young people that you guys got over there to do some of these businesses, too. That might be another avenue, you know what I mean, to make them entrepreneurs as well. But I love the work you guys are doing and I love the participation with the CTE training and all, man, that's -- that's big stuff. For somebody to get like you said a job that's a head of household job, you can raise a family on. That's -- that's big stuff so thank you guys. Thank you.