And hopefully, we'll find some other internal things to save money. And also, the Bar is committed to maintaining the high level of pro bono services and maybe even expanding on that so we can all, you know, see this work a little bit better.
Right. I just wanted to make sure that I, you know, very clearly 1792 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET understood the context and the contrast, quite honestly, between, you know, what, again, many of us would experience in our own lives versus, you know, other people who are just in the worst possible situation. With every respect to everyone at the table, in the worst possible system that you ever want to find yourself in, you get in -- it seems like you can virtually never get out, and it's just an ongoing thing, and it's people, it's passion, it's money. And we are then, you know, trying to figure out, how do we help folks and do it in a reasonable fashion. But I thought that the comparison between the court-appointed and the rest of the system was important. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
Public service, I think, is a form of compensation, but as public servants, we nonetheless get a salary, because unless we can feed ourselves and our families, we're not going to be able to perform. 1793 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET As the Chancellor said, what we're seeking is not equality with private services, but we're seeking at least some compensation to enable people who have a feeling toward public service to engage in public service. And that's what's being asked. And my concern is that it may well not be enough because of all of the burgeoning demands put upon the court system. With respect to the issue raised by Councilman Kenney, it's been my experience from the days when I practiced actively as a criminal defense lawyer that many of the appointments at the Municipal Court level would occur in the courtroom, in the police station, where the hearings were held generally in my case, up in the 35th Division, at Broad and Champlost, where there would there would be one public defender. And defendants would come in often, seeking a continuance on the ground that they don't have a lawyer. And in order to move cases forward, the judge would instantly appoint a public defender to permit the calendar to be considered and to avoid constant interminable delays. So that I think a bare statistical 1794 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET survey of appointments of public defenders and in a study made of the finances of the defendants really is no comparison that has any meaning at all. In many cases, judges use their decision and their authority to appoint a public defender in order to permit the flow of cases to go on and to avoid unnecessary delays. So I think it's really a complex system, and I just wanted to make clear that a mere statistical survey is not going to add much light. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate Councilmember Cohen's comments and I want to -- as he has the ability to do, confuse my questions sometimes. (Laughter.)
I'm not looking for mere statistics. What I'm looking for is the process followed to determine indigency -- the questions that are asked, the documents that are 1795 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET required, the process that we employ. I recognize Councilmember Cohen's example of keeping the list going in a preliminary hearing and arraignment, those kinds of issues. I'm talking about when an individual actually comes back with a court-appointed public defender, or a court-appointed attorney, after the process has been investigated, and what we do to investigate that process. Again, I think it's very important that we provide appropriate counsel for people. However, I always marvel at the fact that this is a constitutional right provided by federal law and the Federal Constitution, and the City winds up paying the bill. It's just one of those things the federal government does all the time: it tells us what we should do and then doesn't provide any money for it. But that's what I'm interested in trying to determine: what process there is, how we track it. And the other thing I think Councilman Cohen gave an example of was that when he was practicing criminal law -- and I don't want to 1796 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET determine what year that was, but I would imagine the number of drug cases that were coming through the court system at that point in time were probably not as many as are coming through today. And the concern that I have is with the amount of cash that is available relative to drug cases. I'm wondering whether or not some of these guys and ladies aren't hiding some of this money because it's not shown on paper. You can easily show that you're not employed, you can easily show that you have no direct source of income. However, you could be sitting on some cash that could be used to pay one of the members of our Bar Association directly. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Your Honor, I'm sure I speak for all of the Councilmembers when we say we're very, very glad to have you there, and we appreciate all of your efforts and your commitment to our City. 1797 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Thank you, Councilwoman. I'm very honored to be here.
Mr. Primavera, is there any statement that you would like to make at this time?
Yes, very briefly. And thank you, Council President Verna, for the opportunity. As I said before, the Philadelphia legal community has many diverse interests, and the one thing that they are truly united behind is making sure that the court-appointed counsel system is improved and made fair. It's been a point of tension between the Bar and the courts in the past because the Bar has been impatient. And really, I think, Councilman Kenney mentioned it, we keep having all of these unfunded mandates, and that doesn't make it easy for court administration or the legislature to deal with it. But the reality is that when the law mandates the right to counsel, and we as a society want to make sure that those accused of a crime are adequately defended, and also want to make 1798 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET sure that they don't end up getting appeals and being released or given new trials because their first counsel wasn't effective or they weren't properly represented. So we feel that at this point, with President Judge Massiah-Jackson now reaching out to us, and our commitment to work together and try to find additional ways to make the system work better for the people of Philadelphia, that this is a step in the right direction, and anything that Council can do to help us along with that would be greatly appreciated by the entire Bar Association.
Thank you. Mr. Krakower, did you want to make a statement?
Yes, if I may. Madam President and members of Council, I also appreciate the opportunity to be here and just to make a few comments, that one of the things that we're doing here today, that I think has to be mentioned, is that you see representatives of the Bar Association, our chancellor, myself as Chair of the Criminal 1799 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Justice Section, and the representatives of the First Judicial District, President Judge Massiah-Jackson and Mr. DiPrimio, all sitting together as a unified group of allies, seeking to work hand in hand to, among other things and primarily, to improve the quality of justice for the people of the City of Philadelphia, which I think is something that we all share. And I think that it is something that should be recognized, that if there ever was any concern about an adversarial or a quasi-adversarial relationship between the Bar Association and the First Judicial District, that that is now over. We are absolutely determined, all of us, to work together. We had a very productive meeting about a week or so ago. And at that meeting, we laid the groundwork for future meetings and future programs where we will work together to do two things. One is to improve and to sustain the basic quality of that wonderful thing called "justice" that goes on in the criminal justice system; and also to do it in a way that bears responsibility for the finances that are provided 1800 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET by the people of Philadelphia through their City Council. We are aware of the responsibility for doing that, and we intend to work together in that regard, so that the dollars that you do give to the First Judicial District will be used and spent in a way that the lawyers will also have opportunity to have input. That doesn't mean we'll always get what we want, but we know that the door is open to the administration of the First Judicial District and to the Office of the President Judge. And we're looking forward to working together harmoniously in the next five years. And I want to thank Council for everything that we've done in the past, by the way that Council has done, to help bring us to the point where we are now.
And I certainly want to thank you and Mr. Primavera for taking the time to come in to testify today. At this point, the Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And good morning. 1801 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Good morning.
Just listening to some of the testimony this morning and questions being asked by Council, kind of on the same line as Councilman Kenney. When, I think, Judge Massiah-Jackson, you spoke about the DA's Office with the forfeiture money, or maybe that was -- JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Mr. Krakower.
About the forfeiture money and things like that. JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
When a defendant is found guilty, I think that the DA's Office generally auctions off the property, private property, as it relates to the case. JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
Is any of that money given back to the court for reimbursement? JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: It goes to the DA's Office, I think.
The DA's Office. JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: The DA's Office 1802 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET gets it.
They get it all? Is there any -- is there a reason why that isn't done? Is it not permitted? I'm just thinking, if you're trying a case, why shouldn't some of that money go back to the entity that basically brought that person to justice in the first place and reimburse the courts? Which is really reimbursing the taxpayers for the costs related to the public defender. I mean, it goes somewhere, obviously. I'm sure a lot of the -- and the DA probably wouldn't want to give up that money because the DA has expenses as well. But maybe there's a way in which some of that money, a portion of that money, could go back maybe at least to pay for the legal expense that was incurred for the court-appointed attorney. Just a thought.
Your Honor, the forfeiture money goes, to the best of my knowledge, to the DA and the Police Department, does it not? JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: It does. 1803 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
And was that a State act that enabled them to (indiscernible) the Forfeiture Act? JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: It's statutory. Yes, it is. I think it's a very appropriate concern.
Well, maybe the pie should be cut up three ways. I mean, I understand and I fully believe and support that the Police Department should be reimbursed for its expenses, and the DA's Office. Why not the court? JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Well, Mr. DiPrimio has an anecdotal comment that he'd like to present to your attention, which is very important, because I think it's important to keep in mind that we're not talking only about the indigent defendants on the criminal side, but a large chunk of this relates to the families.
Councilman DiCicco and Madam President, several years ago, and it was prior to the current district attorney, an effort was made, spearheaded to try and get some of that drug forfeiture money back in the system to pay 1804 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET the child support owed by some of these guys that were being locked up with drug money, and we were unsuccessful in that area. The -- because, clearly, the statute does -- the drug forfeiture statute, as I recall, does not provide for disbursement of that outside law enforcement and the district attorney, but it's been so sacrosanct that we haven't even been able to get back child support out of it.
But I guess the answer, then, lies with the State legislature.
I think you're correct, Councilman. JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
So we need to visit the State legislature, and I'd be willing to work with the court, and I'm sure the other Councilpeople here would be willing to work along with you.
I don't have any other questions. It's just an observation from listening to this testimony that some --
I think we 1805 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET would all join you, Councilman.
I mean, I have the same opinion about the Traffic Court. You know, I came from the Traffic Court for about years, is 6 that the Traffic Court generally struggles for 7 additional resources for personnel. Why shouldn't 8 some of money that is collected by way of the 9 traffic violation fines go back into the court for 10 computerization or personnel. 11 I mean, you take it from one -- it goes 12 into the General Fund, and then where it goes, 13 it's anybody's guess. But I think the departments 14 who are out there generating the revenue -- not to 15 be disrespectful to the criminal element, that may 16 be a part of what we're doing -- should get some reimbursement so they can at least keep up with the technology. I mean, I know I was always fighting for money at Traffic Court just for technology purposes. So why shouldn't we put some of that money back -- reinvest it back into the system that we're asking to go out and do the best that they can do with -- as you said, Joe, you have telephone systems that have parts that are back in 1806 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET the 1930s. So I think we maybe we have to look at this on a more holistic view as it relates to the First Judicial District in total about how we get some of this money back into the system that we're always asking you to do better at. And you do a great job with the limited resources that you have, so I think we have to figure out a way of funding, without really disturbing or taking out of the General Fund per se. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
I think I mentioned in the second part of my request is the number of nonresident individuals arrested. I just wanted to make sure that that was a part of the analysis. JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I understood that.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen. 1807 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Madam President, I just wanted to mention when I first started the questioning of counsel fees more than five years ago, I never envisioned the day when the Chancellor of the Bar and the Chairman of the Criminal Justice Section and the President Judge and the Administrator Officer would all be sitting together, as they are now, cooperating. I really think it's a great day for the court system and -- (Laughter.)
And for the Bar and for Philadelphia. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Thank you, Councilman.
I think it's wonderful. They're all to be congratulated.
Thank you. Mr. Dubow, I would like to suggest that you meet with the judge and Mr. DiPrimio as soon as possible to talk this over, and we would like 1808 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET to have a report by midweek next week as to how we can address this problem.
Madam President, there is one remaining item that I want to put on the record, if I may. With respect to either -- you may recall that some months ago, there was some discussion or publicity associated with a so-called request for proposal which the court indicated it may let out. I want to report on the record that there is no RFP, and none is being let out. Thank you.
(Inaudible, off-mic.) . . . dealing with the court appointment of what are now court-appointed -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
It was a great source of friction between the Bar and the courts.
Well, I must point out that one of the first things that our Madam 1809 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET President Judge said to me when we met was, there will be no RFP.
Fine. Thank you all so very much for coming in. And, Your Honor, thank you for your patience. I'm sorry we started late. JUDGE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Thank you.
Thank you. The next department is the Sheriff's Office. (Witness comes forward.)
We are running behind time. Sheriff Green, I appreciate your being here. I understand you had an incident this morning. SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct.
And I thought perhaps you would not be able to make it, so I'm very happy that you're here. Kindly identify yourself for the record and just summarize your testimony since we do have a copy of it, which will be submitted to the stenographer. (Sheriff's Green written testimony 1810 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET attached hereto.) SHERIFF GREEN: Okay, I shall do that. My name is John Green, and I'm Sheriff for the City and County of the Philadelphia. I'd like to respectfully thank you for understanding, first, my tardiness and, second, my attire. I apologize for being dressed like this, but I had an emergency at home. The Sheriff's Office appropriation, as requested by the Administration, is $11,499,748 for Fiscal Year 2002. The Sheriff's Office is requesting an additional $653,632 in order to cover the security requirements at 34 South Eleventh Street, which is Family Domestic Court and Philadelphia Traffic Court. These are two relatively new assignments for the Sheriff's Office, but they are needed assignments, and there are serious concerns at Philadelphia Traffic Court and there are serious concerns at Domestic Court. The mere nature of the type of work that they do in those two buildings dictates a need for security.
I do recall last year that the then-President Judge of Traffic 1811 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Court had called us and spoke about the need for additional security. SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct.
We at that time were in touch with the Finance Department, but apparently, no affirmative action was taken. Did you request this additional funding from the Administration? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes. We made the Administration aware of the need. Quite frankly, there was a change in the administration at Traffic Court around the same time that we had to -- in which we were required to turn in our numbers for the next fiscal year, which meant that we were unable to coordinate a complete picture of what we would need over at the Traffic Court building during the time of submission of our request for Fiscal Year 2002.
How many people do you have at Traffic Court at the present time? SHERIFF GREEN: We have don't have any deputies in Traffic Court.
You don't 1812 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET have any? SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct.
Who does the security work there? SHERIFF GREEN: Well, it's my understanding is that they have a combination of Traffic Court officers.
Thank you, Madam Chair. To the best of my knowledge, at least five years ago, when I left the court as a court administrator, security was basically done by enforcement officers who basically had a dual role. Part of their job was spent out on the street, serving scofflaw warrants or making arrests, and the other part was basically standing at the entrance of the courts and the entrance to the courtroom or the court building. There is a police contingent there that basically handles the citations as they're 1813 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET delivered from the various police districts. They would help out from time to time in the role of security, but there was a limited police force -- I'm not sure what the number of police officers there today is, I'm sure it's down from where it was five or six years ago. It really had no semblance of a security of a security force there. Some of the maintenance employees were actually given titles of security officers.
They would stand at the entrances or stand next to the cashier counter, where a lot of monetary transactions would go on. So for all intents and purposes, there really is no security at Traffic Court, and there hasn't been for as long as I could remember.
Mr. Dubow, could you come front and center, please. (Mr. Dubow returns to witness table.)
Can I just ask Councilman DiCicco one question what he said earlier? 1814 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Councilman, you said that there are enforcement officers who have a dual role? Sometimes they're in the -- at Traffic Court and then -- are you talking about enforcement officers like PEOs?
These are enforcement officers -- that's the title given to people who work for Philadelphia Traffic Court, whose responsibility is to serve warrants and/or make arrests of scofflaws.
And they, from time to time, based the on the need, if it was a busy court day and they were not out on the street, they would be assigned to patrol the hallway and basically try to make the courtrooms as secure as possible.
But, I mean, it's a situation where sometimes they're there and sometimes they're not, not depending on if there's something else they have to do?
That's correct, depending on what the program that the court has 1815 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET established in terms of increased enforcement for scofflaws. And when defendants are arrested and brought into the court either by way of the Police Department or by way of the enforcement officer's arrest, they are in charge of securing the holding room where the defendants are kept until the hearings are heard.
I would only have two other comments, and I know this is probably completely out of order. But, one, there's, I mean, there's hardly a soul at Traffic Court who's there 'cause they want to be there, and even if they are, I mean, except for maybe the employees --
Right, they're not very happy, okay. Second -- I mean, as between the Sheriff's Office doing their security work as opposed to the Philadelphia Police Department, I mean, are these Philadelphia police officers there because they have court time, or have they been 1816 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET assigned to Traffic Court? I mean, they're supposed to be out on the street.
It's a combination of two. There is a clerical unit, if you will, that the police officers maintain. When the tickets are brought in from the various police districts, they're delivered to the police room 9 first. And the tickets -- the citations are then broken down to the police copy and then the court copy, et cetera, and that's -- by way of law, I understand that it has to be done that way. I always felt as though -- with no 14 disrespect to the police officer there -- it was really a waste of manpower to keep them in there, but that's the way it is written.
Additionally, in each courtroom, there is generally one police officer who stands before the court and basically testifies to the testimony that is written on each of the tickets.
Right, I got you, okay. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. 1817 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Thank you. And as I said, I will reiterate that last year, Judge DeAngelis -- I don't know whether they had an incident or two at the Traffic Court, but she apparently was very concerned about the safety in that building for everyone concerned.
If I could just give you a brief history for those of you never been down at Traffic Court at Eighth and Spring Garden, when I was a court administrator, because there was such a concern for safety, I literally took the first courtroom, which was just off the main entrance. To the left, as you come in, is the cashier's department, and then you go to the right, and that was the hallway where the courtrooms were located. I literally turned Courtroom A into the police liaison unit so that it would have police at least a little bit closer to the main activity of the court, the entrance to the court and the cashier's department, and hoped that that would add some level of security. Because the police at one time were kept all the way in the back of the building. And I still believe that the 1818 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET enforcement officers not permitted to carry firearms, so you do have a situation, as Councilman Nutter was alluding to, that people are there who are basically detainees, they're arrested for maybe being scofflaws, but generally a lot of these folks who are arrested have other criminal warrants outstanding, and that's some of the reasons why they're brought into the Traffic Court in the first place, because they may have other warrants outstanding for criminal matters, and then through the system of the court, the Traffic Court is notified, and then they're brought down to Traffic Court. So these are people who will attempt from time to time to escape, not because they're going to be standing in front of a Traffic Court judge for a moving violation, but because they have other criminal cases pending that they were literally arrested for by chance, or because the Police Department was able to apprehend them in the process of another crime. So it is a very dangerous situation that goes on down there. And we are fortunate that some major incident has not happened yet. 1819 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
In addition, in a very recent letter that I think the new administrative judge, Judge Perri, send to Councilmembers, he pointed out that the enforcement officers now are out in the field probably all day long, or all night long, because of the enforce -- the increased activity that enforcement officers are engaged in trying to apprehend scofflaws. So that I think the situation is really pretty desperate. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to get some clarity. On the issue with respects to the Traffic Court itself, aren't there dedicated security officers, Traffic Court employees for that facility? 'Cause I have, on occasion, had some interaction with one or two of them when I went down with -- well, they weren't constituents at the time because I was a 1820 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET staff person, but they were constituents of the former Council President Street, and these people are clearly employees of Traffic Court, and they had concerns about where I parked my municipal vehicle, and we got into a debate about that. And they clearly indicated that they were security for Traffic Court, and they were not police officers, and they didn't appear to be warrant officers. SHERIFF GREEN: But as stated before, they are people who have a dual role. They are people who are really technically enforcement officers who assume the responsibility of security for a particular day for a particular period of time.
So you're saying that these individuals, at some point, they actually go out and serve warrants? They weren't soley dedicated to that facility? SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct, as is my understanding. It is also my understanding that these people do not receive adequate training to provide security for the building. And needless to say, they are not trained to provide security for prisoners. 1821 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Okay. Madam Chair, would it be possible -- and I don't know if the Sheriff or Councilman DiCicco, since you had spent some time down there, to get something in writing that speaks to the specific security arrangements for that facility? 'Cause I have -- I mean, I've experienced something somewhat different.
If I may, Madam Chair. I think the answer to Councilman Clarke is, if you look at the payroll -- I mean, I haven't seen it for five and a half years -- you may see a line item that says "Security Officers." But in reality, they're just ordinary folks who are hired at the Traffic Court. Maybe they were a clerk at one time, and there was a need to have at least someone stationed outside of the courtrooms or at the entrance to the building to basically direct people to where they needed to go. So a title was created for these folks as security officers. But it's not a security officer as I think you or I would typically think of someone 1822 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET who's in security. A bank security guard or a chain restaurant or a food market will have a security officer stationed there. These are just really folks who were hired basically as clerical assistants, who, at some point in time -- and the court said, Well, we need someone to monitor the door at Eighth Street and the door on Spring Garden Street, we need somebody to be the security officer there, and they were given a new title, and they're given a gray shirt --
Yeah, a uniform, with no guns and no -- as the Sheriff says, really no formal training. We did enter into some training program back in the early '90s, but because of the fact that they're not permitted to carry guns, it was very difficult for us to get people who were making probably in the area of to $25,000 a 21 year to take on the responsibility of being an 22 enforcement officer that would go out and apprehend people. And, again, if you would look at the history of it, many of the people who are 1823 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET scofflaws, Traffic Court scofflaws, these are people who have generally a major criminal history criminal background. And it's a difficult job for people to do without even having any means of protecting themselves. So I think you really need someone who has the authority and the training and the ability to deal with those types of individuals. It's a court. Why should Traffic Court be treated any differently than the other courts in the system? You have security guards at the First Judicial District, the CJC, you have them at 1801, and you have them at a lot of other places. So there is a need.
Councilman, I agree with you that these individuals are not adequately trained 'cause one of these individuals actually physically grabbed my arm as it related to a simple incident of where I parked my municipal vehicle. So I agree with you 100 percent that they have no training whatsoever. And I guess my simple question is, who pays for that particular enforcement or that particular -- that particular safety or security 1824 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET officer? Should it be the State or should it be the City of Philadelphia, be it either a Sheriff's Deputy or a Philadelphia police officer? And I guess that's kind of my concern, regardless of whether or not that person is qualified or not. SHERIFF GREEN: Well, our current funding stream comes from the City of Philadelphia. As you know, there's a pending resolution concerning the unified judicial system in the State of Pennsylvania that would allow for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to assume the cost of the courts, but that hasn't actually occurred yet, and we're still waiting for that.
So those individuals that have lobbied -- I guess both this Council and your office from the State- administered facility, with the Traffic Court, I understand, is, have they lobbied the State for financing for security, or are they simply looking to the City of Philadelphia for security? SHERIFF GREEN: I don't know what Traffic Court has done in relationship to requesting funds for their security. I can just tell you that the responsibility of the Sheriff's 1825 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Office is to provide security for county courthouses, and the Traffic Court qualifies as the county courthouse. And so it is the obligation of the Sheriff's Office to provide the needed security.
(Inaudible, off-mic.) . . . Traffic Court, while the judges are State employees, the personnel who run the court are City employees, so I'm not certain if Judge Perri, who's now the new AJ, has been lobbying the State, but I don't think he would get anywhere in the first place, because they're City employees.
I would just like the record to reflect also that in the detailed budget for the Traffic Court, it indicates that there are 12 enforcement officers who, Councilman DiCicco, would go out and serve warrants.
Either out on the street or in the office, doing the paperwork, 1826 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET prior to a team being put on the street, and doing the follow-up paperwork if in fact the --
And the five security guards, you say, do a lot of clerical work?
And they have one assistant supervisor for security guards. Mr. Dubow, having heard the testimony and the request, can you tell us what the position is of the Administration regarding this matter?
Our initial reaction to the request was that what would happen was that Sheriff's employees would replace court employees, and that's why we initially didn't fund it, 'cause we thought they were replacing the court enforcement officers. And I think now, given what we've heard today, we need to meet with the Sheriff's Office and revisit that and look at what their needs are.
I'll add it to my agenda 1827 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET for next week.
Thank you. Are there any other questions for the Sheriff? (No further questions.)
I do hope everything's okay. SHERIFF GREEN: Yes. We're working on it.
I know the Law Department has been waiting, but the Register of Wills is here, and I'm sure it will only take about three minutes. So the Register of Wills come forward. (Witnesses come forward.)
Mr. Donatucci, we do have a copy of your testimony. It will be provided to the stenographer and transcribed in full. So if you would simply summarize your testimony, we would really appreciate it. (Mr. Donatucci's testimony attached 1828 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET hereto.)
Good morning, Mrs. President and members of Council. You are correct, we did submit a two-page letter highlighting basically what our revenue has been for the past year and what our projection is. We are basically in agreement with the Administration's numbers, except for two little areas, and we discussed both of them with Mr. Dubow. One was in the area of 400, Council President, where we are aggressively trying to finish our computerization of the office. I notice Mr. Primavera was here. We are officially now on the Internet for access to our Orphans Court records since 1994. They are Internet-accessible, and we would like to make the rest of the office accessible through the Internet and possibly also charge for some of these services. So we are basically asking in the Class 400 $103,774 so we can get the rest of the computers -- the hardware and the software, the programs to finish our probating. And we had asked for additional monies in our Class 100 for 1829 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET my deputies and attorneys who have not received a raise in approximately three years. It's basically a cost-of-living raise to be comparable to our other employees. One point -- I'm going to keep it very short. If you look at our revenue, we're basically a self-sustaining office, and we do provide services citywide. We have traveling probate clerks, we provide services to bedridden veterans and free services where we don't charge to go out for marriage licenses. We also have two offices, satellite offices, to serve the Northeast and North Philadelphia. This all things that we've implemented and didn't ask for additional employees. We are in the process right now of studying our fee structure with the five surrounding counties to rate some of our fees to be comparable which will bring us approximately $75,000 additional revenue. We also feel once the computerization is done, as I said, for computer access to our office, I feel we could charge a slight nominal fee with the initial probate of an estate. I want 1830 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET to emphasize that a lot of these fees that we will be raising will be in the area of fees that will reflect in more complicated estates and not the smaller estates where there's a question of how much money's in the estate. So basically, the bottom line is, the more money in the estate and the more ability to pay, they will in turn pay the additional fees.
Mr. Dubow, it's my understanding that you're working with Mr. Donatucci to address his concerns?
Thank you. Are there any questions from members of the committee? (No questions.)
The Law Department is next. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good morning, Madam Chair. 1831 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Good morning. Thank you for your patience. We appreciate your waiting.
Okay. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. And we do have a copy of your testimony. I think you heard Mr. Donatucci say that it will be given to the stenographer, who will type it in full, so if you would merely summarize, we'd appreciate it. (Mr. Trujillo's written testimony attached hereto.)
My name is Ken Trujillo. I'm the City Solicitor. Seated to my left is Donna Mouzayck, First Deputy City Solicitor. And to my right is Chris Lane, Director of Administration and Management for the Law Department. Also seated behind me are Stella 1832 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Tsai, who is the Chair of Administrative Law for the Law Department; as well as Dan Cantu-Hertzler Corporate and Tax Chair for the Law Department. And as Madam Chair noted, we have submitted written testimony on behalf of the Law Department's budget request for Fiscal Year 2002. I would like to highlight a couple of the issues which the written testimony describes. First, I'd like to note that a year ago, my first day of work was noteworthy because I came into testify on our budget request for last year. And during that testimony, I told this body that there were a couple of significant challenges that the Law Department had, and that I had hoped that we would have some support in order to meet some of those challenges. And when I testified on February 28th of last year, I had told you that we had had at that point an attrition rate that was reaching a 40 percent possibility for the year with our lawyers if it had gone on the way it had gone. For 1999, we had the highest attrition rate of a decade. Last year -- and so I told this body that we needed to adjust the salary schedule last year. 1833 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Happily, with your support and the support of the Mayor, we did make a significant change to our salary structure. And so we ended up for the year with approximately an percent 6 attrition rate. I'm happy also to report that 7 this year, we've only had one lawyer leave the Law 8 Department since the beginning of this year. So I 9 am appreciative of your support, and I thank you 10 for that. 11 When I testified last year, I also 12 mentioned to you that one of our great challenges 13 would be meeting some of the needs that we would 14 have, both with respect to the organizational 15 staffing, and we have made a couple of fairly 16 significant changes, which, I believe, has allowed 17 us to serve our clients -- the City Council and 18 the Administration -- in a much, much better way. First and foremost, I had mentioned earlier Stella Tsai, who serves as Chair of Administrative Law for the Law Department. Up until her appointment, the way the Law Department was organized was, we had two Chairs that reported directly to me: one was Litigation, Bill 25 Thompson; and the other chair was Corporate/Tax. 1834 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Labor -- all of the Labor work and the Employment work was done through the Special Labor Unit and through Special Litigation. They reported directly to Bill Thompson on the litigation side. The Health and Human Services area, which, as you know, is approximately 30 lawyers in the Law Department, reported to Corporate and Tax. I did not think that that was the best way to do it, and I felt that we needed to have closer supervision, both in the Labor and Employment area and also in the Health and Human Services area. And in that regard, I hired Stella Tsai to be my direct report on those two areas. And so she is now supervising Health and Human Services and the newly-created Labor and Employment Unit. ) who's the Chief Deputy of Labor and Employment. That has given us, I believe, a very, very significant ability to see exactly what's going on when you have cases that are perhaps in 1835 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET two or three different areas at one time, and I'm very pleased with the results that we've seen there. Miss Tsai has also worked very closely with the new Commissioner of the Department of Human Services, and I believe we're making significant progress. And, in fact, we've recently overseen the ending the Baby Neal case just in the last three weeks. The remaining -- my remaining comments are simply with respect to an Affirmative Litigation Unit, which we also formed.
I believe I testified to that last year. And the notion of the Affirmative Litigation Unit was to have a group of lawyers dedicated not only to defending the City -- in this case, for them to be dedicated solely at investigating cases in which the City had been injured economically or otherwise. And my experience has taught me that when you spend 80 percent of your day defending, it's kind of hard to go out and investigate cases and to try to be proactive and to try to be a plaintiff. And so, again, with your support and with the Administration, we've created an 1836 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Affirmative Litigation Unit. We have filed some cases already, and we expect at the very least in this fiscal year, it should be pay for itself, and in Fiscal Year 2002 and going forward, we would expect it to more than pay for itself into the future. Those are the highlights. I know that some of you may have questions, and so I'd be happy to entertain them if you have any.
Thank you. My staff has informed me that the refund payments for the personal property tax is not budgeted in FY '02. In light of the Charter requirement that all payments of the City are to be made through appropriations, why has your department taken the position that these refunds do not -- do not need to be appropriated?
I'm not certain that the Department has taken that position. I will ask Frank Piva (ph.) and Richie Feder, who have been the two principal lawyers involved in this area to --
Are they here? 1837 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
They're not here today, no, they're not, ma'am. But we will prepare a response for you by next Wednesday, if that's appropriate.
Well, I think this is a very important issue. And when you talk to your assistants, I think that I would ask you that they consult with Mr. Erekson, Mr. Auerbach, Mr. Shapiro, and Mr. McPherson of our staff before the adoption of the proposed FY '02 budget.
You indicate in your testimony that you will be adding six staff for the Law Department for the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. What will this additional staff be doing for the NTI Program?
The Law Department has already undertaken a number of steps, and we have actually on a weekly basis have been meeting. We have at this point about 12 lawyers that have been actively involved in the NTI. What we have done, starting at the beginning of last year, was first to contact other cities, from Baltimore to San Francisco, that have 1838 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET had significant code enforcement successes. We've also been in contact with states and have been in the process of drafting proposed legislation -- for instance, the kind of legislation that would allow the City to have an enhanced and a more rapid way of taking blighted property by eminent domain. So the Law Department will be analyzing and developing legislation both locally and at the State level in order to support those blight initiatives. We have also -- the current Code Enforcement Unit, as I believe most members of this body are aware, is significantly busy just with the day-to-day enforcement activities and the servicing particularly of Licenses and Inspections. It was our expectation that particularly if there's going to be designations of blighted property, if there's going to be more cease-and-desist orders, that that kind of servicing would require significantly more legal services. We have contacted, in fact, the new President Judge in order to look at the potential 1839 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET of creating a Nuisance Court, and in that case, we would have our lawyers specifically there to work with particularly Licenses and Inspections and the Health Department. We have also began the drafting of community and public awareness documents which really are focused at centralizing any kinds of nuisance or neighborhood complaints that people may have -- whether it be, you know, high grass, whether it's music blaring, whether it's skateboarders. Whatever kinds of different nuisances that are impacting any particular neighborhood, we've started the draft of a handbook that allows people to have kind of a one-stop shop for any City services aimed at that area. We have also begun a training program for Licenses and Inspections between the Law Department and L&I. The idea being that we want to make sure that we don't create the potential for any civil rights violations and that the L&I staff have a very clear understanding of what their obligations and responsibilities are when they're going to enter a cease-and-desist order or 1840 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET to undertake some other kind of police or other enforcement action. We have -- I think -- we've worked very hard with the -- with Pat Smith and the rest of the Mayor's Office that are involved in this area in order to assist them in either drafting plans for any kind of legal challenges that we might ultimately have as a result of this, and also we're -- we've also had to work, obviously, on the legislative side and also on the bond issuance. That's the --
Well, from your testimony, I am assuming that new legislation would require City Council action, would it not?
And when would you plan to involve City Council's technical staff to work through the legislation that you're talking about?
On those issues, I typically would look for guidance from the Administration since the Administration -- and when I say "the Administration," I mean the Mayor's Office and Pat Smith and Joyce Wilkerson, 1841 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET because they -- we are typically asked to draft any particular piece of legislation, but in terms of timing, we would really look to the Mayor's Office for that.
Well, I will tell you, City Council better get involved -- sooner than later. And you're talking about legislation. We also have excellent attorneys on our technical staff who may be able to help you in some way, shape, or form in the preparation of this very complicated issue. And so I am merely suggesting to you that you take advantage of that. And if you don't. . . I just am very fearful to tell you that we're in the dark and we don't appreciate it. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respects to the question that the Chair asked about the NTI initiatives and your involvement, you referenced Baltimore as one of the models that you were looking at. Can you tell me what the Baltimore model calls for specifically. I understand it's called "Quick 1842 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Take"?
Well, if you're talking about the eminent domain proceedings, that's correct.
We were looking at Baltimore on a couple of different fronts and then we looked at San Francisco on another front. Baltimore had a couple of things that we were interested in, and one of them is the accelerated ability -- right now, for instance, it can take us as much as two years to get a blight designation to get everything from start to finish. If we were to see a block or two or three that needed to be -- to have a blight designation and for us to be able to take it by eminent domain or otherwise. Baltimore has reduced that time to, as I understand it, to less than six months on the outside. Similarly, Illinois has a state statute that allows a city or a municipality to take property on that kind of expedited basis as well. Baltimore also had started to do -- increase their ability to fine people, you know, 1843 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET nuisance. For instance, a landlord that continues to engage in illegal conduct when they're -- and when I say "illegal conduct," for instance, they don't fix the water, things that affect a renter. They ended up implementing an accelerated fine system so that a frequent flyer that is a frequent violator of their regulations is fined more and more money. We have a limitation on the amount that can fined here in Philadelphia, which is $300, and we felt that the use of a higher number which is very similar to Baltimore's is something we could use.
Does Baltimore have a redevelopment authority similar to ours?
I believe they do, but I don't know their charter, and I don't know the precise integration between them and their city government.
All right. Who specifically is working on that initiative in your office? 'Cause I have some issues.
I've done some 1844 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET research on some of the acquisition ordinances across the State, and we were actually thinking about doing something here.
The two people principally responsible would be Louis Rossman and Cheryl Gaston.
All right, one last question. About a week and a half ago or two weeks ago, I asked you to tabulate certain out-source fees associated with a certain election. Have you gotten --
I believe we -- I believe we did a response, and it's on my desk. I can probably tell you the number off the top of my head 'cause I think it's about 181.
And that's just the 1845 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Law Department, when you were working for the City Commissioner's Office?
On behalf -- representing the City Commissioners, and that was and outside counsel that was hired by the Law Department.
And it was also -- and I understand it's not your jurisdiction, but there was also outside attorneys' fees associated with the Housing Authority's involvement in the case?
That we did not tabulate. We only did the Law Department portion.
If you'd like, we can also get the Housing Authority portion.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter. 1846 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Solicitor, I did want to comment on of the testimony about the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative and the new legislative efforts, which there is certainly a crying need for some new legislation in this particular area. I certainly agree with the Council President's comments with regard to working with our -- having, I guess, the Law Department and our own legal staff on the Council side work together, and I would certainly not compare myself and probably could not even be in the same room 15 between the fine attorneys of the Law Department and the fine attorneys on our technical staff. But I would also like to encourage that you may also get some additional information from the people who actually have to deal with these systems in trying to get or dispose of a property. And to the extent that Councilmembers who are fairly active in this area might have some opportunity to either share some information or shed some light on some of these situations, it may also be helpful. We probably all have our own 1847 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET individual horror stories. And to the extent that those issues can be addressed through this legislative effort, it would be helpful.
I know I have a number of requests that we can talk about later, but there might be a couple piece under the new piece for Councilman Clarke that's on your desk. There might be a couple further down in the pile that have my name on them, and I'd like to follow up on those. I mean, we'd all like to collectively contribute to taking stuff off of your desk and getting it over to our shop. (Laughter.)
Although, if you've seen my desk, you know that I don't need any more paper at all. On , you talked about the makeup of the Law Department. And I had raised this issue some years ago in a comparison of the -- excuse me -- staff complement and diversity of staff between the Law Department, the Public Defender's Office and the District Attorney Office 1848 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET just kind of as the legal community but different parts of the government. How do you feel about these numbers? And one, let me say that, at least from my reading of them, you seem to have done a great job in trying to make sure that there is a balanced representation in the Law Department. I know that it is always tough to keep people; there are so many other exciting things and lucrative that people could be doing, but I think with you having provided leadership and direction and given up a lucrative situation yourself, maybe others will be inspired to come and spend a little time with us. (Laughter.)
And your judgment's always going to be questioned. (Laughter.)
Councilman, I actually am disappointed with the job -- with the success 1849 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET at least that we have been able to do, not with the effort, but rather, with the results. I am -- we have -- I tried very hard, for instance, and if Councilman Ortiz was here, I know he would ask me how many Hispanic attorneys are now on staff and how many were there a year ago and how many were there two years before. And the one thing I will tell you is that I am disappointed on that front, and not because of the lack of effort, but because of the lack of results. We have -- a year ago, literally a year ago, there was zero; there are now three Hispanic attorneys, and we've got offers out to two more, so our hope is that we will have five. My -- that's way too few. I have tried -- we have tried to hire others and, frankly, have found it -- we've been turned down. I believe that we're -- I think I'm very sensitive to the notion of having minority representation. A year ago, we also had zero Asians in the Law Department. I believe our number is now up to three, including a Chair. So we're having some success. 1850 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
But the salaries were an issue. Many of the people that we want, we're asking them to take a 50 or a 60 percent pay cut. And -- so I frankly wish that I was doing a better job.
Well, if they are within reason and within, you know, the bounds of keeping Mr. Dubow happy, if there are things that we can do to try to help in that regard, it's something that I care a great deal about, and I'd be glad to continue that discussion.
Well, first you have to stop hiring my staff, and then I'll -- (Laughter.)
Just kidding, but if anybody has recommendations for -- whether they're attorneys, whether they're paralegals, whether they're other kinds of staff, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Well, let me say two things in response. One, it just becomes clearer by way of every conversation that I ever have with anyone in the Law Department that they 1851 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET continue to complain about the good judgment that I exercised with regard to a person on your staff, and we'll be the beneficiary of it. She'll continue to be nice to folks over at the Law Department, and so I do appreciate that. We'll continue to work together. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Councilman. Mr. Trujillo, on , you mention that there was a negotiated settlement with the Health Department and the EPA regarding the drinking water in the School District. Can you tell us a little bit about that agreement. And I only have two questions. The second one is -- I'll mention both now and then you can respond. You mentioned the expansion on of a Model Court program and Family Court. Can you tell us a little bit about? That those are my two issues.
On the School District matter, that I will have to get back to you on. I have Dan Cantu-Hertzler here, who worked on it, 1852 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET but I think we can -- I would prefer to have a written response.
The Model Court program and Family Court. You mentioned that on --
Hello, Councilwoman Blackwell. My name is Stella Tsai, and I'm Chair of Administrative Law, and I oversee the Health and Human Services Unit, which works in Dependency Court. And as far as I know, this -- the Model Court Initiative was one of the, I guess, happy manifestations of the Baby Neal litigation in that the courts and the agencies that work together in Dependency Court collaborated an effort to improve delivery of services from (indiscernible) services to kids who come into our care. And what's 1853 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET happened is that the Baby Neal litigation, as far as the City, has been terminated. As far as I understand, the court has continued to keep it open -- the court defense has kept it open for another two years. Judge Panepinto, who was the Administrative Judge of Family Court had agreed to install two additional model courts by Fiscal Year 2001, I believe. Now that we have a new administration in Judge Sylvester, I think there's some discussions going on as to what we will do. Model Court is an attempt to make sure that kids who are adjudicated dependent get services early and that they get fair treatment in terms of the amount of time that each -- the parties get together and they collaborate on a better solution. It's really the model, and ideally, we would be able to have these services offered to every child that comes into our care. And I believe that Judge Sylvester is working very hard to find a way to take the reform to Model Court -- it was a laboratory, essentially -- and implement them court-wide. So that's going to be a very tough 1854 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET effort. It's going to require the cooperation of a lot of parties, it's going to take a lot of courage, and a lot of time to get it done.
Well, we certainly applaud what Judge Panepinto has done. And certainly, it's been great, and we have done a -- you know, been involved a little bit with community courts in the district that involve youth. And it's just been great, and we certainly look forward to supporting Judge Sylvester to make these things a reality and to keep kids getting serviced. Thank you. Are there any other questions members for this group from members of Councilman?
Excuse me, Councilman, we can't hear. Would you put his mic on, please.
We have been trying over the years to increase numbers of staffing in City government. The other day, Linda Seyda said that out of 29,000 individuals that work for the City, 3.5, 3.5 percent were Latino across the government. That's a jump from years ago of 9 percent. 10 Now, as a person who's worked in legal 11 services and -- do you believe that a 1 percentage 12 jump in 20 years in the increase of Latino 13 employment, does that demonstrate good-faith 14 effort, or what does that say? 15
One, I think it's 16 unacceptable. I don't know and I don't want to 17 say that it's good faith, bad faith. I don't 18 think I'm the person to -- 19
But just give me 20 your impression for over 20 years. 21
It's unacceptable, 22 Councilman, it's unacceptable. 23 Before you came in, I testified about 24 my own efforts and characterized my own efforts 25 as, I've worked very hard to try to increase the 1856 1 2/23/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET number of Latinos in the Law Department, and I've had the whopping success of going from 0 lawyers a year ago to 3. We have two offers outstanding, so we may be at 5.
But when you walked in there, didn't it surprise you to find that there were no attorneys in there?