Committee Hearing, October 12, 2011

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY3 Room 400, City Hall6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 12, 20117 10:15 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA10 COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE11 COUNCILMAN WILLIAM K. GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR.12 COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN13 BILL 110633 - An ordinance amending Chapter15 10-300 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Minors," by amending Section 10-303, entitled16 "Unlawful Conduct of Minors," and Section 10-307, entitled "Parental Responsibility for17 Minor Children," to provide for earlier curfew hours for minors, to provide for parental18 liability, establishment liability, and for penalties and enforcement, for violations of19 Chapter 10-300 or any expanded curfew under the Mayor's emergency powers...20 - - -22 2

Good2 morning. This is the Committee on Public3 Safety. I'm Councilman Bill Greenlee.4 I'm filling in as Chair for the Chair,5 Councilwoman Miller.6 We have a quorum with7 Councilman Jones, Councilman Kenney and8 Councilwoman Reynolds Brown.9 Mr. Nesheiwat, will you please10 read the bill before us today.11

Bill 110633, an12 ordinance amending Chapter 10-300 of The13 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Minors," by14 amending Section 10-303, entitled15 "Unlawful Conduct of Minors," and Section16 10-307, entitled "Parental Responsibility17 for Minor Children," to provide for18 earlier curfew hours for minors, to19 provide for different curfew hours for20 additional age groups among minors, and21 to provide for parental liability,22 establishment liability, and for23 penalties and enforcement, for violations24 of Chapter 10-300 or any expanded curfew25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 under the Mayor's emergency powers, all2 under certain terms and conditions.3

Thank4 you.5 Before we hear from the6 witnesses, I recognize Councilwoman7 Reynolds Brown, who would like to make a8 statement.9

Thank you10 very much, Mr. Chairman.11 First, let me say thank you to12 the Administration; namely, to Everett13 Gillison and all those around the Mayor,14 who collectively have worked together to15 again address this persistent problem.16 Today we're introducing the17 bill, and the trigger, if you will, using18 that word poorly, was the flash mobs that19 we saw again become very present in the20 lives of residents here in the City of21 Philadelphia. So it requires us as a22 government to acknowledge the rise of23 teen violence, flash mobs and the effects24 they are having throughout our city.25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 What we know is that cutting2 crime amongst young people is going to3 indeed take the involvement of parents4 first, parents first, government and5 faith-based organizations. Can we6 legislate good parenting? Absolutely7 not. But when government is required to8 step in, then we have to if we want to9 look at and consider preventive measures10 that indeed help parents do their11 enormous job anyhow.12 We understand this is not a13 silver bullet to resolving this14 complicated matter impacting children and15 youth, but it is one requisite necessary16 if we're going to stem the ugly,17 pervasive, in-your-face activity called18 flash mobs.19 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.20

Thank21 you, Councilwoman.22 Any other member would like to23 say something?24 (No response.)25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331

Seeing2 none, our first witness, Deputy Mayor3 Everett Gillison.4 (Witnesses approached witness5 table.)6

With7 Lieutenant Healy.8 Good morning.9 DEPUTY

Good10 morning. Good morning, Councilman11 Greenlee, members of the Public Safety12 Committee. My name is Everett Gillison13 and I am the Deputy Mayor for Public14 Safety. 19 110633, which would amend Chapter 10-30020 of The Philadelphia Code, relating to the21 curfew for minors. The bill provides for22 age-appropriate curfew times for minors23 that are consistent each day of the week,24 but continues to provide for earlier25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 curfew hours during the school year and2 later times for the summer period. 9 I think it's fair to say that10 all of us in this Chamber and indeed11 across this city were incensed to see12 images of young people running through13 the City, committing acts of senseless14 and intolerable violence. We were15 equally disheartened to hear of the16 innocent victims of this violence who17 were randomly targeted and beaten for no18 reason. The Administration's response to19 this conduct was swift, comprehensive and20 holistic. 22 But additionally, the Mayor,23 utilizing his emergency declaration24 powers, issued an Executive Order25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 imposing a more restrictive curfew. This2 emergency curfew has extended through the3 end of the summer and continues to be4 renewed. All indications are that the5 modified curfew is having the desired6 effect. Moreover, we called upon parents7 and community leaders to get involved and8 engage with young people. The Youth9 Commission has been actively involved in10 creating alternative, safe venues for11 teens to enjoy themselves. 16 I have said all along that this17 is not a police problem, but we must,18 however, provide our police officers with19 the tools they need to help ensure that20 our young people are safe and that they21 are not on our city streets causing havoc22 and creating problems. We need a23 common-sense approach to curfew, and as24 such, we have attempted to simplify the25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 curfew by proposing to establish two2 times, one for the school year and one an3 hour later set for the summer. Our4 proposal eliminates the extended weekend5 and holiday curfew. 9 Additionally, our proposal10 acknowledges the realities that older11 teens should have later curfew from their12 younger counterparts. 14 We all know, however, that a 13-year-old15 and a 17-year-old are not at the same16 level of maturity. Moreover, the social17 life, academic life and work life of a18 17-year-old is dramatically different19 than that of a 13-year-old, and the20 curfew law should acknowledge that and21 reflect those differences. 25 9 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 While government is able to do2 many things to provide safety and3 security, we cannot do it all. 5 Learning good behavior and responsibility6 begins at home. Parents and guardians7 need to know where their children are,8 where they are going and who they are9 going with. 18

Thank19 you, Mr. Gillison. I know the members20 have some questions. If I could throw in21 two quick first.22 On the breakdown of age -- and23 I certainly understand what you're24 saying, that there's changes in maturity25 10 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 of ages, but I guess I'm just thinking2 what if a 14-year-old and a 13-year-old3 are going somewhere together. How would4 that be addressed if it's in that5 in-between time, say 8:30 or something,6 if you know what I mean?7 DEPUTY

The8 bottom line is that you have to9 understand what the -- the 13-year-old10 has different responsibilities than the11 14-year-old, and the parents are going to12 have to deal with making that decision up13 front.14 I understand that -- the one15 thing that I will talk about more than16 anything else is that always remember17 that discretion is built into what I18 believe is a good system and that if a19 police officer should actually come upon20 the 14-year-old or 13-year-old, we have21 exercised a huge amount of discretion in22 this area in the past. We will continue23 to use common sense, and we will enforce24 accordingly.25 11 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331

Okay.2 And as far as the discretion -- again,3 I'm asking these questions just for --4 DEPUTY

I5 understand.6

-- to get7 it defined, because I think what you8 presented and what Councilwoman Reynolds9 Brown presented as the reasons make10 perfect sense. But how about -- because11 in the description here it says, said12 minors accompanied by a parent or doing13 an errand or other legitimate business14 directed by the minor's parents, engaged15 in lawful employment, whatever.16 What about if they're coming17 from school activities, a game, a play,18 something like that?19 DEPUTY

That20 actually comes under the "directed by21 parents," and, therefore, if you're22 coming from a school play you have been23 directed by your parent to attend, you24 will then be able to go through, and all25 12 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you would have to do is show the police2 officer where you were coming from, and3 usually the School District already has4 parental slips that accompany persons.5 These kinds of things are6 handled. They're handled well. They're7 already handled well by our Philadelphia8 police officers. So I don't think that9 this is anything new that we'll have to10 deal with.11

So you12 don't think that there needs to be more13 defining language in here?14 DEPUTY

No, I15 really don't.16

Okay.17 All right. Thank you.18 Councilman Jones and then19 Councilman Kenney.20

Thank you,21 Mr. Chairman, and some of the concerns I22 have you've raised, but a couple of23 things.24 One, by way of due diligence in25 13 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 a manner, because the one thing I've2 learned in the four years I've been here3 is that the pendulum swings on an issue.4 One year ago we're talking about5 overzealous police actions and whether or6 not that is appropriate, and now the7 pendulum has swung in a completely8 different direction and we're kind of9 looking at trying to gain a measure of10 control and consistency among a11 population, in particular youth and youth12 violence. So as a legislator, I just13 want to -- I don't want the highs to be14 too high and the lows to be overreactive,15 if you would.16 So a couple of things. Is17 there a documentation that has been done18 on the correlation between youth violence19 and violation of curfew? Are we working20 off of something that suggests21 statistically that if we address this,22 that violence actually will go down,23 particularly in the hours of the curfew?24 DEPUTY

I would25 14 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 think that there have been many various2 studies all around the country, but I'm3 trying to understand whether or not your4 question is, is there any particular5 study that would indicate that6 enforcement of curfew at a certain rate7 would actually impact violence?8

I guess9 better phrased the question would be,10 have we looked at the instances of young11 people committing violent acts or crimes12 beyond curfew hours? Is there anything13 that we've done to that?14 DEPUTY

I know15 that we can actually and we do keep16 statistics as to who is committing crimes17 when we obviously catch them or when18 crime is occurring and who the various19 suspects are. I know that we have, when20 individuals unfortunately have been shot21 who are 16 years of age, 15 years of age,22 even stray bullets that have hurt very23 young people who have been out past these24 suggested times. We would be able to25 15 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 provide that to the Chair if you would2 need that.3

That would4 be important as we start to move this5 legislation. And I'm sure I'm going to6 hear from others today in reference to7 violating civil rights. I need to --8 other than the feeling I have traveling9 through the neighborhoods that young10 people are out there and maybe they11 should be a little more guided, I want12 statistics that go along with that that13 say, Look, 120 crimes were committed and14 these young people were under the age of15 what this curfew would impact and,16 therefore, this is a good measure. So17 that would be helpful to me and I would18 assume members of this Committee.19 The other question I would have20 is geography based. Is this -- I mean, I21 remember in our temporary measure it had22 certain areas, University City, Center23 City. This is citywide at this point?24 DEPUTY

That's25 16 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 correct.2

That's3 important to me, because these acts,4 neighborhoods, communities have had to5 put up with violence and curfew violators6 for a very long time and I don't want it7 to be geography based. If it's a problem8 in Center City, it's a problem in West9 Philly. So we want to address the10 problem that way.11 You mention activities such as12 track and field. I've been a track coach13 where we took kids away and we get back14 at 10 o'clock, and some of them15 unfortunately have to drive or take16 public transportation to get home. And17 so those activity slips would save a lot18 of confusion.19 How do we deal with the issue20 of -- we make laws all the time. How are21 we going to approach enforcement on this22 and where is the increased activity? We23 used to have curfew centers. We don't24 have them now. How are we -- if we25 17 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 increase the activity on enforcement,2 what is the end game? Where will these3 young people go? How will this be4 addressed as opposed to how we did it in5 the past?6 DEPUTY

Well,7 basically the way that we've done it in8 the past, minus the curfew centers, is9 that the police officer would be10 responsible for identifying who the11 individuals are who were in violation.12 There is always a discretionary aspect of13 it that has existed for over 50 years.14 The officer can choose to either take the15 person home, which is highly unlikely in16 this environment, quite frankly, but17 that's still a discretionary matter. The18 officer can actually take the person back19 to the local district. There can be a20 call that is made, which is what we've21 been doing under the emergency matter.22 We have made calls to the parents to come23 pick the kids up. You have seen on the24 news, I'm sure, where parents have come25 18 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 in and basically said, I did not know the2 person was out there, and thank you very3 much for doing what you did and giving us4 an opportunity to straighten out this5 matter for us personally at home. And,6 quite frankly, when the kids are not7 picked up from there, then there8 sometimes can be referral to the DHS9 system in order to see whether or not10 additional resources need to be provided11 that is already in the system and can be12 put forward.13 So it's really -- we are really14 not changing the system. We are15 basically trying to make it that the16 system is going to be enforced uniformly17 across the City. So we'll still have the18 same situations going forward that we've19 always had. It is just a matter of20 having the police officer placed in the21 position of trying to do enforcement22 across the City.23

Scenario,24 and then I'll pass. Other members of the25 19 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Committee have some issues.2 Fifty-eighth and Malvern is a3 section in the Wynnefield area where4 tragically a young lady was murdered a5 couple of days ago. One of the residents6 on the block talked to me and said,7 Councilman, we at times have 50 young8 people out here at night. Obviously all9 of them can't be painted with a brush to10 say that they're bad or good or whatever,11 but they're out there. And so this law12 would then allow officers to question13 whether or not they were old enough to be14 there, which an intended consequence is15 to move all below-age teenagers to a16 safer --17 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:18 Environment.19

--20 environment, which would at least reduce21 the number of participants in that kind22 of thing, which would make some of those23 neighbors on the 5800 block of Malvern24 happy.25 20 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 What progressive actions when2 you stop are you then -- when you have3 probable cause to stop a young person to4 question their age, a whole series of5 things can then ensue, I would imagine,6 that would deal with issues, illegal7 weapons. Are they allowed to search8 them? What are the processes and steps9 that can be taken once you come into a10 crowd of 50 young people, you're checking11 IDs, what can ensue from that?12 DEPUTY

Well,13 normally --14

Do you15 search?16 DEPUTY

The17 bottom line is is that much like it was18 during and what it's been during the19 emergency time, we've had officers who20 have been on South Street, for example.21 They would see people who appear to be22 underage. They would just ask them.23 They would stop them, they'd say, you24 know, please produce the identification.25 21 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 If they were found to be underage, most2 of the time -- and I really do mean most3 of the time -- the officers directed4 those kids to go home, not continue5 walking down east on South Street. Turn6 around, get on the sub, go back towards7 Broad, get on it and come back. If the8 kid persisted, that's the only time they9 were taken in.10 There's a statistic that I know11 Mr. Healy will be able to provide the12 Chair if you need it, but from January13 until now, there's been over 10,000 stops14 by people for curfew investigations, over15 10,000. We have only issued 20016 citations, and that's because the17 officers are looking and saying just18 basically do what you need to do to stay19 safe, get home and to do what you have to20 do.21 So the officer when he's22 standing there is actually engaged.23 There's nothing that impacts the24 Constitution with that. The issue about25 22 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 whether or not the officer can use his2 discretion is well within his rights.3

That's what4 I get. I'm not trying to make the case5 for civil liberties. That case can be6 made somewhere else. What I'm trying to7 get a better understanding -- and8 probably people who are listening to this9 hearing or watching this hearing will10 probably want to know -- is it the11 officer's discretion to take it to a12 search if, for example --13 DEPUTY

No. He14 would have to have articulable facts that15 would actually demand that he feels that16 he is in some way -- that he's in danger.17 You just can't automatically stop18 somebody and search them.19

That's the20 question.21 DEPUTY

You22 have to have a reason. And if you're23 talking to usually people who look to be24 10, 11, which is when I was on South25 23 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Street and we were doing the emergencies2 and we saw people who were as young as 8,3 9 and 10 that were walking, you know, it4 was already 11 o'clock at night, we5 didn't need to have that. They needed to6 be home. The officers weren't going up7 to them, pushing them, frisking them and8 all that. They directed them, Who are9 you here with, take this kid and try to10 get them home, especially if the person11 they were here with was underage12 themselves.13 We didn't want to have to take14 people in. I keep telling people this is15 not necessarily a policing issue,16 although the police are out on the front17 lines. What we're trying to do is get18 the parents to take responsibility.19 That's why this is talking about civil,20 not criminal, liability. It's civil in21 nature, not criminal, and what we're22 trying to make sure is that we move this23 process so that we can have an24 opportunity to address this in a holistic25 24 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 way.2

I just3 wanted to know if there was a firewall in4 between the point of are you old enough5 to be out here and I'm going to pat you6 down and --7 DEPUTY

And8 it's basically the same firewall that9 always existed. You have to have an10 articulable reason to believe that you11 are in danger before you could actually12 sit down and place your hands on anybody.13

Thank you,14 Mr. Chairman.15

Thank16 you, Councilman.17 And please let the record18 reflect that Councilwoman Blackwell is19 present.20 Councilman Kenney.21

Thank you22 very much, and thank you, Deputy Gillison23 and Lieutenant Healy. First of all, I24 want to commend the Administration on25 25 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 their approach, along with the Family2 Court and Judge Dougherty, and what you3 did to get the initial emergency issue4 under control, because I think you were5 very forceful and effective in getting6 that done.7 One of the things I think --8 there's two issues that I get concerned9 about relative to this particular issue,10 and one is enforcement. When we have a11 presence after an emergency and we have12 consistent enforcement, the problem seems13 to go away or at least subsides, and over14 time, that then begins to die off a15 little bit. And each individual -- I've16 always looked at the Police Department,17 the real linchpin level is the captain,18 where that's where the rubber hits the19 road in the district, and based on what20 the captain's philosophy of -- his or her21 philosophy is, whether or not stuff like22 this gets carried through.23 When I was -- in the '60s or24 late '60s, early '70s, curfew in my25 26 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 neighborhood meant something, and the2 officers used that opportunity to get by3 the corner where we were 15 minutes4 before curfew time and said, Fellas, you5 know, time's a ticking. When we come6 back, we're going to start issuing7 citations or take you in. And that was8 effective.9 I think what this bill is doing10 is terrific, but, again, we've always had11 it. We're just kind of delineating12 different age groups. How do we continue13 to be consistently enforcing this and how14 do we translate that down to the officer?15 Because, again, every police officer is16 different, and most of them are extremely17 qualified and want to do this job. Some18 of them, frankly, I've had my own run-ins19 with folks who don't really care to20 respond.21 How do we let them know or make22 them understand that this is important to23 keep them safe, to keep the kids safe and24 to keep the neighborhood calm? How do25 27 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you translate that?2 DEPUTY

I think3 that -- and thank you, Councilman Kenney,4 for your question. The issue really does5 come down to leadership, and I think that6 you're in an era right now where we have7 one of the best leaders that we've ever8 had in the City.9

I agree.10 DEPUTY

And,11 second, while I agree with you that it12 used to be the person that was important13 was the captain, under this14 Administration and under Commissioner15 Ramsey's philosophy, it's really the16 lieutenant now for the PSA that is17 responsible for enforcement of all of the18 various things that we're trying to get19 done, and it is that lieutenant's and20 sergeant's leadership. So we are21 pressing down the responsibility so that22 the officer really understands that it is23 his leadership that is going to really24 make a difference in how this is being25 28 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 done, how this is being carried out and2 how you actually provide a modicum of3 safety in the area, the geographic area4 you're responsible for.5 So, yes, the captain. From the6 inspectors down all the way to the7 captain is the way that it used to be.8 We're pushing it down so we can win the9 hearts and minds of those individuals who10 are in the force, from the lieutenants,11 who are really responsible for their12 smaller area, and the sergeants that have13 to make sure that the boots on the ground14 are responsive.15 So I believe that we are16 structurally in line with making sure17 that we will have a structural change in18 how we do things, and I think that we19 will be able to produce the statistics20 one way or the other to see how this goes21 out and goes forward.22

Because I23 think a lot of times the initial24 interaction, whether it's a minor or25 29 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 whether it's an adult, between the2 officer and the citizen is what sets the3 tone for whether or not they're going to4 be respected and be effective or whether5 or not it's going to be a confrontation6 or whether something else happens. And7 when I was young on the corner, certain8 officers had a way about them that you9 would want to help them. We had an10 Officer Roosevelt who used to come to the11 car and say, Fellas, my sarge is going to12 kill me if you guys don't get off this13 corner, and we'd say, All right, Sarge,14 we're gone, and we'd go.15 It's kind of that -- and I16 think what Councilman Jones was getting17 at was it's not this kind of aggressive18 thing, it's kind of like, Yo, dude, I19 mean, you're too young to be outside,20 let's get moving, get to school tomorrow,21 that kind of stuff. So I think if that's22 the approach, then I think it will be23 effective.24 The other thing I found a25 30 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 number of years ago and it stopped2 during -- it wasn't this Administration.3 It was the last Administration, where4 Municipal Court judges were willing to5 sit in night court or weekend court, and6 what happened was, the judges got7 frustrated because the officers weren't8 bringing anybody in, and they said, Well,9 I'm not going to sit here from 10 o'clock10 until 1 o'clock in the morning if you're11 not bringing anybody in to see me or to12 come before me.13 Have you discussed or thought14 about the reinstitution of that possible15 night court on a -- I know it's done16 sporadically where there's a particular17 problem in a particular neighborhood, but18 I think having the immediate meeting out19 of justice in front of a judge that20 night, with the parent having to get off21 the couch or out of the bar or out of22 wherever they're at and come down and23 deal with this problem face to face with24 the judge that same evening. Is it25 31 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 doable or does it make any sense to try2 to reinstate it?3 DEPUTY

Right4 now we don't have the -- I would say that5 to your question, have I had any6 discussions with President Judge7 Neifield? The answer is no. Because we8 really are trying to put together the9 structure that is not going to be10 ad-hocked, and I don't think that given11 the resources that we currently exist12 with the economy the way it is, that it13 would be a good investment for dollars.14 Obviously we have a very good15 relationship. It is something that we16 can talk about, but it is not something17 that has been placed on the agenda for18 discussion.19

I just20 throw it out there because I know when it21 was done and it was done regularly, it22 was effective. The judges were23 volunteers. They were happy to be there,24 but they were unhappy that they were25 32 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 sitting there with nothing to do. And it2 seemed to be district by district, kind3 of this hit and miss as to whether it4 worked or not.5 So I would just -- I would ask6 you to keep considering it, because I do7 think having that parent with their child8 before a judge that evening is an9 effective deterrent to having that happen10 again.11 DEPUTY

Okay.12

So that13 would be helpful. And, again, I do14 believe police presence -- as you know, I15 don't like calling them flash mobs,16 because those poor people are dancing and17 they're having some fun. I don't know18 what the term we should call them, but19 when they were going on and the presence20 at 15th and Chestnut and at Broad and21 Walnut, I mean, it was a police presence22 that stopped that and made it go away at23 least hopefully forever, but at least for24 the time being. So I recognize resources25 33 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 are a problem, but anywhere there's a2 presence, things seem to calm down.3 DEPUTY

I thank4 you for that. I will also suggest that5 there has been a lot of community6 partnerships that we had that we actually7 activated. Our "I Pledge" partners in8 the community came forward. And a lot of9 people knew the people. A lot of people10 knew the individuals who were out there.11 I see that you even have a couple of the12 people that came out and were walking13 with us. They were out there with us14 suggesting very, very strongly to the15 kids that it was time to go home, and the16 kids respected because they knew who they17 were. We need to have that kind of18 alternative and that kind of community19 presence, because the bottom line is,20 where there are interested adults, kids21 really do act the way they're supposed22 to. It's when we leave them to their own23 devices that we actually come up with24 idle hands of the devil's workshop. We25 34 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 have to make sure that the kids --2

I've always3 believed that. As a matter of fact, the4 work I've done with Sonny Hill, Sonny5 Hill always used to say, Kids want6 discipline, they want structure. They7 don't want abuse, but they want to know8 what the rules are and they have to9 follow them. Once you set those rules10 and set that tone, you generally have11 pretty good experience.12 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:13 Absolutely. And Sonny Hill is one of14 those that I've actually sat down and15 talked to about how we can be helpful and16 how we can get kids more into those kinds17 of programs so we don't have these18 problems.19

All right.20 Thank you.21 DEPUTY

Thank22 you.23

Thank24 you, Councilman.25 35 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Please let the record reflect2 that Councilman Clarke, who is a member3 of this Committee, is present.4 Any other questions from5 members of the Committee?6

May I?7 COUNCILMAN GREENLEE:8 Councilwoman Blackwell.9

Thank10 you very much.11 Good morning.12 DEPUTY

Good13 morning, Councilwoman.14 COUNCILWOMAN BLACKWELL:15 Mr. Deputy Mayor, what do you say to16 the -- how do you respond to the issue17 that a lot of people think that those18 parents who don't want to come, won't19 come anyway and those who do come are20 people working two jobs so their kids are21 out there because they're not able to22 come and they can't afford it?23 DEPUTY

I'm24 trying to understand what the question25 36 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 is. The question is when they don't come2 to what?3

When4 parents don't respond to these fines.5 Some are working two jobs who can't and6 others who are not there anyway or weak7 family structure, who won't come no8 matter what.9 DEPUTY

Well,10 the good thing about weak family11 structure is that there are certain12 resources that are available to help, and13 sometimes you have to give someone an14 incentive to actually ask for help that15 they truly need. The bottom line is is16 that we have to walk a balance, and the17 balance is, you can't have and sanction18 what I would call where your parenting19 impacts on the rights and basically20 criminal acts are as a result. There has21 to be responsibility, and responsibility22 is where the kids are going to have to23 deal with not only their parents, but24 they're going to have to deal ultimately25 37 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 with the government.2 We are trying to make sure that3 the parents understand that if you have a4 problem, then just ask for help, and we5 are there to assist you. If you are not6 reaching out and your kid does something7 wrong, we just can't countenance because8 there is a financial issue. My point is9 is that bring that financial issue to the10 court, and like everything else, the11 courts usually end up very understanding.12 But we need the parents to step up and to13 understand what the rules are in order to14 make sure we all can live in safety.15

And I16 also think that we should -- I know the17 Mayor had a press conference on it, but18 that we should -- I think the solution to19 all of this is always activities, and I20 think that we need to find a way, coupled21 with this process if Council agrees, if22 majority agrees that this is the way we23 should go, that we give them the24 information about what's around in their25 38 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 community --2 DEPUTY

Oh,3 absolutely.4

--5 what's in recreation centers and6 libraries and parent universities or7 parent activities. The end all has to be8 that we have to have positive activities9 for kids to be engaged in.10 DEPUTY

You11 will never hear -- and, Councilwoman, you12 know my views quite well. You will13 always hear me saying that activities are14 the issue.15 One thing that I will say,16 however, is the fact that when we did the17 assessment of the numbers of activities18 that were available, we are providing as19 a city an abundance of activities that at20 some point there is a responsibility not21 only on parents to understand that these22 things are there, but that we -- because23 we can't force feed people to take their24 kids to the places that are available.25 39 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 But from the Y's to the non-profits that2 are offering alternatives, the City3 actually stepped up and offered4 alternatives well into the night. We5 tried to do everything we could to make6 sure that people, through publicity and7 education, were very sensitive to the8 fact that there is something else to do.9 I was in community meeting10 after community meeting talking to people11 about when someone says, You know, I12 don't have -- there's nothing for me and13 my kid to do, and I would then go to them14 and say, Right around the corner there is15 an activity. Has your child -- well, he16 doesn't want to do that.17 Tell me what your child wants18 to do. And sometimes the answer was a19 blank stare. I didn't know that was20 there.21 Well, believe me, I'm trying to22 make it as easy as possible to divert23 your child, to help your child become24 engaged in a proactive way, but you25 40 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 cannot excuse the fact that that doesn't2 give anybody the right to walk up to3 somebody, as we had seen, and smack them4 in the face. You can't have an5 11-year-old stomping somebody at 106 o'clock at night just because, A, it7 appears to be cool.8 We are trying to do everything9 we can to divert that kind of matter. I10 think that we all can agree that maybe we11 can try and do more, but we have done12 quite a bit, and we're going to try and13 make sure that that's the message that we14 send.15 We cannot condone criminal16 behavior, no matter what, and we want to17 give alternatives so that people can have18 and live in safety rather than fear.19 That's what we are trying to get done.20

Thank21 you. My last comment. I agree with what22 Jim Kenney said about, you know, telling23 teenagers, Hey -- because we do that now24 with night court where we say, Buddy,25 41 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 move on, you know you can't be drinking2 out of an open can out here, things like3 that, and then it's okay. I mean, nobody4 wants to be stopped by a police officer.5 And I'm for that. I just think getting a6 fine up to $500, people can't pay for7 basic needs now. And I agree that we8 need to do something. I just think that9 we got to really consider what we do in10 terms of fining people who are already11 taxed out.12 Thank you.13 DEPUTY

Thank14 you.15

Thank16 you, Councilwoman.17 Councilwoman Reynolds Brown.18

Could you19 therefore please clarify for us the fine20 structure, because there are three21 different interpretations. Could you do22 that for us?23 DEPUTY

Sure.24 The majority of the fine structure comes25 42 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 down to, there's a fine that is for the2 child itself in order to make sure that3 they understand. There's a fine that's4 for the parent that goes along with it.5 And the big thing is is that while the6 fine does say that it is $500, if it is7 paid for within a ten-day period, it is8 really $75. So even though it says that9 it shall be a $500 fine, if you pay10 within a ten-day period, it's 75.11

Okay.12 Thank you very much for your answer.13 DEPUTY

You're14 welcome.15 COUNCILMAN GREENLEE:16 Councilman Jones.17

Thank you.18 To the spirit of Councilwoman19 Blackwell's comments, I think it is20 important that we as a municipality give21 the right hand of fellowship or the left22 hand of punishment, and those offerings23 should be balanced, if you would. So I24 agree that we have to do something. We25 43 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 can't let our young people run amuck.2 And I do believe that they want some type3 of structure, but also I hear that there4 is not enough to do. The reality of that5 versus the thought of that may be very6 different, but to bridge that gap, we7 need more information put out on a8 website about, you know, youth-related9 activities and where they are.10 We can no longer afford to have11 art at every center, but we should have12 regionally art in an area that is13 reasonable for young people to get to, or14 drama or basketball or other sports. But15 we have to have a matrix where people can16 plug into and be able to say that I can17 get my kid to the Arthur Ashe-Turner18 tennis program. That's a reasonable bus19 ride, I can get him there, because that's20 their interest, versus wrestling versus21 basketball versus whatever. But that22 matrix needs to be real clear and with an23 eye towards geography of young people by24 way of not gangs but cliques. I tell25 44 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 people all the time Tuscan is right2 across the bridge. It is a mile from3 54th Street, but it might as well be4 10,000 miles by way of two conflicting5 neighborhood youth populations.6 So we have to be kind of7 conscious of the geography of things.8 Kids from down University City should be9 able to come to Tuscan, but that doesn't10 always work out that way. So we have to11 kind of put those information pieces out12 there, both online, both on Twitter, both13 on wherever people are getting their14 information so that that rational, Oh,15 there's nothing to do, can be dispelled.16 So working with the Recreation17 Commissioner, I don't know how we18 increase the information flow, but make19 it known to people that they can't call20 you and say, you know -- I know you'll go21 to a community meeting. They're not22 going to call you at 10:00 at night and23 say, Where can I send my kid? But there24 should be a reference number that25 45 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 everybody can refer to about a menu of2 activities that young people can take3 part in.4 DEPUTY

I5 agree.6

Thank you.7

Thank8 you, Councilman.9 Councilman Clarke.10

Thank you,11 Mr. Chairman.12 Good morning.13 DEPUTY

Good14 morning. How you doing?15

A couple of16 quick questions, and sorry if it was17 asked earlier. I just wasn't here. I18 had some other business to take care of19 outside of this Chamber.20 What's the difference -- and I21 see that there's probably a monetary22 issue, but what's the difference between23 this proposal and the old curfew centers24 that were in place a few years back?25 46 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 DEPUTY

The2 curfew centers that were in existence3 before the City made a commitment to have4 Behavioral Health and other social5 service agencies that were in existence6 in, I believe it was up to ten, although7 I might be corrected on that, areas, and8 police would actually bring the kids9 directly to those centers and they would10 be assessed for any particular issues and11 then left and go -- they would be left12 there for the first time through. They13 still had the same -- these rules, except14 for the tweaks that we are putting in.15 The rules were the same. They just had a16 different place to go. And those17 centers, as a result of the economic18 matters and other reasons, were taken19 out.20 So what we are doing, we're21 left with the way that it's been for22 pretty much 50 years, which is you are23 brought in -- if you are brought in at24 all -- and statistics that I gave you25 47 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 mean that the majority of people are not2 brought in. But those that are are given3 summaries and/or a CVN. They are into4 the process, and then they go forward.5 So that's the main difference between the6 previous curfew centers when they were in7 existence and what is in existence right8 now.9

Okay. In10 your response to some of my colleagues'11 questions, it sounds as if we, the City,12 because we're all in this together13 obviously, understood that this is, one,14 obviously not a police problem to some15 respect, but you obviously have to have16 the police be involved in the early phase17 of this. But there is an underlying18 issue, more social as relates to support19 systems. We know our family structure is20 not what it used to be; therefore, you21 don't have people being responsible for22 their own children, which is a challenge.23 And I kind of got a sense that you24 acknowledged that and you were talking25 48 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 about providing some level of support --2 you didn't say it in any level of3 detail -- for that particular child or4 that family. Am I correct?5 DEPUTY

No, I6 didn't. I mean --7

You did8 not?9 DEPUTY

I did10 not.11

So you12 didn't say that at all?13 DEPUTY

No, no.14 I did. My response is is that you are15 correct, I did not suggest what the16 social services that are there, that17 those processes through DHS are always18 there.19 To the Councilwoman's question,20 if there is a problem at home and they21 don't come pick up the child, my response22 to an earlier question was if the child23 doesn't get picked up, there's a referral24 made for an investigation through the25 49 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 courts to see if there is any additional2 services that are needed. I did not3 detail what they were, but, I mean,4 obviously we know that there's a5 referral, there's a process that goes6 through. If the person is deemed in need7 of services, a child can be deemed, and8 that's in Judge Dougherty's world. They9 provide services every day to parents who10 basically raise their hand and say, I11 need help. Sometimes you need an12 incentive to do that, and if this is13 something that causes an incentive to a14 parent that says, Hey, look, I just need15 help, I don't have what is needed and16 somebody can pay attention, this is a way17 for them to get the help they need.18

Okay. So19 if you acknowledge that there needs to be20 some support systems in place, but it21 sounds like under this proposal it would22 be on the back end, why wouldn't we23 simply put that in the front end,24 understanding that there needs to be25 50 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 something in place? Is it solely driven2 by the lack of resources?3 DEPUTY

Well,4 what I was suggesting is we already have5 those supports in place. Those supports6 are in place. They are active every day.7

But they're8 in the back end. It's after the child9 gets taken in and then it moves through10 the system, and then if it goes to court,11 then you say to the parent, What's the12 issue, why aren't you doing whatever.13 And I understood the old curfew center14 had those resources in the front end so15 you can do the assessment early on and16 hopefully intervene in that child or that17 family's life so you wouldn't get to the18 back end; i.e., for $500 or some19 additional penalties associated with20 that.21 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:22 Actually, that's wrong. What happened23 was is that the police officer brought24 somebody in. So you were still at the25 51 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 same point, but you --2

But you3 brought them into a facility that did the4 assessment, right?5 DEPUTY

That's6 correct. There was a facility that was7 established that actually did the8 assessment. That's correct.9

But we're10 not doing that here.11 DEPUTY

No, we12 are not doing that.13

That's what14 I'm saying is the difference. It's the15 front end versus back end. That16 assessment under this proposal will be17 done later on throughout the process.18 DEPUTY

If19 needed, that's correct. Most of those20 persons did not need it, which is why21 those resources were in fact left there22 waiting. And there was no statistical23 nor was there any assessment that was24 done that indicated that those things25 52 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 were being used at the rate that we were2 spending the dollars.3 We know that those supports are4 there. We pay for them every day. DHS5 does a very good job of doing the6 assessments. We are trying to get more7 education out to parents so that they can8 know that those things are available.9 But I don't want to confuse the10 two things. I want to make sure this is11 a proposal that's dealing with curfew and12 curfew issues. If people have ways that13 we need to publicize the help that's out14 there, that's been out there for over 5015 years, we will continue to work harder16 making sure parents understand that they17 don't have to wait until their child --18 they don't know where their child is in19 order to make sure that they understand20 that there is help available. We are21 making that help available every day.22

Well, with23 all due respect, Mr. Gillison, I mean, we24 did have this conversation early on when25 53 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 the elimination of the curfew centers --2 DEPUTY

That's3 correct.4

We started5 that discussion, and at the time, my6 recollection of that conversation had7 more to do with the police not bringing8 the individuals to the centers because,9 one, for whatever reason, it was not a10 priority; two, there were other issues11 with respect to inconsistencies in the12 law. So it wasn't because there was not13 a need. They just weren't bringing the14 children to the facilities.15 DEPUTY

The16 discretion was always and remains with17 the officer to make the determination of18 whether or not there needs to be a19 stepped up diversion. That's not20 available now, but the officers'21 discretion to respond is still there, and22 as I cited in the statistics that were23 provided earlier, over 10,000 folks that24 have been basically stopped for25 54 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 investigation on curfew matters and only2 200 have actually been cited in any way,3 shape or form. The majority of the4 people that we are interdicting are5 basically being told to go home, and6 that's where they're going.7

Okay. With8 respect to the fine, it says $500, but if9 you pay it --10 DEPUTY

Within11 a certain time, yeah, it's 75.12

Why don't13 we just say 75, and if you don't pay it,14 you pay more? I mean, is there a reason?15 Is it a shock value? I mean, if that16 is --17 DEPUTY

There18 is a shock value.19

So you say20 500 and --21 DEPUTY

Much22 like a parking ticket, if you look at23 your parking ticket, if you don't pay24 within a certain amount of time, it's pay25 55 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 this or pay the other. So we're saying2 this is the law.3

So you say4 the other in this proposal.5 DEPUTY

I'm6 saying that when we go out and they say,7 You know what -- to the parents.8 Because, remember, this is part of the9 education package. You know what, if you10 don't know where your kid is, your kid11 gets involved in something, it's12 destructive, whatever, you can be liable13 for up to $500.14 Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a15 minute. Okay. I got to figure out where16 my kid is. Then you get the instruction.17 The instruction says, that's true, but if18 you pay within this amount of time, it's19 75.20 It gives us an opportunity to21 educate, educate them in a way that's not22 only dramatic, but will get people to23 understand why the law is the way it is,24 and we also incentivize a nominal payment25 56 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 in order to make sure that we're getting2 people to do what we need them to get3 done, which is to really take control of4 their kids.5

Okay. I6 understand the shock of $500.7 You just mentioned in response8 to my first question broadening the9 process or the resources or the10 advertisement of those resources so11 people can get some sort of interdiction12 early on. Is somebody within the13 Administration or within the City going14 to follow up on ensuring, if this bill15 passes either as is or as amended, that16 there will be a companion approach17 attached to this bill that broadens the18 opportunities for people or the knowledge19 of those opportunities for people to come20 in and get some support if they have a21 troubled child or a troubled family?22 DEPUTY

I will23 think that --24

Sort of25 57 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 like a campaign. You know, when we do2 one thing, let's say we're also --3 DEPUTY

I think4 that we all struggle with how to connect5 in relationships with individuals that6 are out there to all of the resources7 that are available, and I believe that we8 all need to kind of figure out whatever9 way we can to make sure that education is10 always a priority.11 So my answer to you is, yes,12 because I know that we are all struggling13 with trying to figure out a way to make14 sure that all of the things that are15 available are known. Sometimes we do a16 very good job. Sometimes we don't do as17 good a job and it's dealt with by the18 numbers of people that perhaps are -- we19 get empty seats in certain offerings that20 happen in the City. It's not just the21 City that has that problem. I mean, I22 worked with non-profits that sometimes23 are out there and they have lots of24 things that are available and sometimes25 58 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you put the call out and only five, ten2 people show up and you think you've done3 a good job. We're always trying to get4 better.5 So the short answer is, yes,6 we're going to continue to try to get7 better as a city and advertising what8 we're doing and how we're doing it, and9 we will continue -- we will pledge to10 continue doing that to make sure that11 people understand what the resources are12 and how they can actually take advantage13 of it just by being a citizen of the City14 of Philadelphia.15

Okay. The16 reason I ask you, if it's done17 concurrently, because the $500 is going18 to be a shock when people hear that. So19 maybe having a limited understanding of20 the availability of resources, limited21 but an aggressive approach to making that22 advertisement and making it a part of23 this announcement, that now this24 particular curfew program is in place,25 59 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 but if you have a problem, call this2 number earlier. So I think the $5003 thing, Oh, my God, but also -- you4 understand what I'm saying?5 DEPUTY

I do,6 and I think this --7

If you roll8 this out in a package, so to speak.9 DEPUTY

I think10 that, as you know, my approach has always11 been balanced. I think that we have12 always as an Administration tried to be13 balanced in what we're doing. And you14 understand that there is always, as15 Councilman Jones has indicated, there is16 the left hand and then the right hand,17 and we're trying always to do that.18 There's the left hand that gets your19 attention, but there's still the right20 hand of fellowship. We believe that, we21 live that, and to the extent that we are22 able to do that, that's going to continue23 to be what I will try and push for,24 period.25 60 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 So I agree with you. I think2 that's something we can do. Yes, this3 will be out there, but understand, this4 is something else that we are offering5 you. And I think that the more we do6 that, we are trying to make sure that we7 all exist in a safer city, and if we can8 provide interested adults, present with9 kids, we know that we'll have a safer10 city. Because God knows, we don't need11 them to be down that wrong path, because12 all we're doing is creating more victims.13 We don't need that.14

All right.15 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.16

Thank17 you, Councilman.18 Councilman Kenney.19

Thank you.20 Deputy Mayor, I've been,21 because of my age and because of my low22 tech abilities, I have been meeting with23 a group of about 20 techie kind of24 younger folks to talk about issues like25 61 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 this, not just this but other types of2 social media issues. And when it comes3 to promulgating this information, the4 kids themselves know what the times are.5 Have we looked at the6 possibility of partnering with Twitter7 account folks who have large numbers of8 kids that are attached to that account,9 whether it's an athlete, entertainer,10 record store, radio station, whatever it11 is that has literally -- like Councilman12 Jones' Facebook page -- that has13 literally thousands of people that are14 attached to it and having them cooperate15 and trying to send out that half-hour16 warning on a Tweet. I don't know whether17 it's Jimmy Rollins' account or Tower18 Records. I'm sure that there is a19 heavy-duty list of Twitter accounts that20 attach to certain things, things that21 kids are interested in, whether it's a22 clothing store, that kind of stuff, and23 ask them to -- I assume it would be24 nothing for them to send a Tweet. So if25 62 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you have one kid who is 14 years old, 152 years old that's signed up with seven3 different Twitter accounts following4 those folks and they get that5 bombardment -- or not bombardment, but6 they get that bing, bing, bing, bing at7 quarter to 10:00, maybe it would be8 effective, and it certainly would be fair9 to them to keep reminding -- if their10 parents aren't engaged, perhaps some of11 the folks that are in the media or in the12 public eye could use those accounts to13 get those kids more engaged as to what's14 going on. Just something that occurred15 to me when we're talking about16 promulgating the information to kids.17 I assume we're going to do18 something with the School District and19 report cards and in the classroom at the20 elementary school level where the teacher21 talks to the kids and hands out the22 little yellow slips that give the times,23 those kind of things, but that instant24 contact -- and I know there's Twitter25 63 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 accounts and Facebook accounts out there2 that, I mean, all kinds of kids are3 involved with.4 So I would just throw that out5 there. And I'm going to ask my tech6 Templars, I call them, to take a look at7 what makes sense in that regard.8 DEPUTY

I know9 that everyone would love to get up and10 between Lieutenant Healy that says that11 we actually are partnering with -- PPD12 has people not only on Twitter, Facebook,13 but we like that idea. We think that14 we'll be able to do that. I know that15 Jordan Harris, who is going to be16 speaking at some point during his17 testimony, he knows that I've put the --18 I've asked that the Youth Commission19 partner with me over this last month and20 month and a half to two months in order21 to make sure that we were reaching the22 kind of folks that we needed to reach and23 in the ways that they listen.24 I know that we have community25 64 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 partners that I've been working with as a2 result of this partnership between the3 Youth Commission and my office where we4 are utilizing Twitter, Facebook and all5 that, and even a guy as low tech as me6 has, from what I understand, a couple of7 people that are following what I Tweet,8 if I get the language right, and what I9 put on my Facebook, people are following10 where I am, what I'm doing and all that.11 So we are trying to engage us12 and engage everyone with the new ways of13 connecting. And I'll let them answer14 when they get up here to deal with it,15 but the answer is both to Councilman16 Clarke and to you, Councilman Kenney, the17 answer is yes. We want to engage18 wherever we can and however we can in19 order to make sure that we're doing what20 we need to do to help our kids.21

And I would22 expect -- again, not to beat this horse,23 but I would expect that some of the radio24 stations and other media outlets that25 65 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 kids are attracted to and listen to I'm2 sure would cooperate --3 DEPUTY

Oh,4 yes.5

-- with6 that, with that 9:30 Tweet to their list7 saying, Just be aware, 10 o'clock is8 coming.9 DEPUTY

Yeah.10 We've had some really good partners, and11 I'm sure that Jordan Harris will talk12 about some of the people in the radios13 that have really done well. Our "I14 Pledge" Campaign has done extremely well15 with people stepping up, I'm pledging to16 do something about violence. What are17 you prepared to do? That tagline has18 gone viral. That came out as a result of19 the Youth Commission working with radio20 stations, with Loraine Ballard Morrill21 and a lot of others sitting up and taking22 up and working with us.23

As far as24 activities are concerned, I do agree with25 66 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 many of the Councilmembers' comments2 relative to weekend activities and things3 of that nature, but from my perspective,4 just speaking for myself, from Sunday to5 Thursday night, it's homework or some6 other school-related activity. I don't7 necessarily think that we need to be8 finding places for kids to recreate at 99 o'clock at night on a Wednesday night10 during the school year. Now, summer is11 different, weekends are different, but12 school year week nights, it should be13 homework or a school play or some14 athletic activity.15 DEPUTY

I agree16 with you 100 percent. The one thing I've17 always asked someone that tells me they18 have nothing to do is, I guess you're a19 straight A student?20

Good.21 Thank you.22

Thank23 you, Councilman.24 Any other questions?25 67 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 (No response.)2

Just one3 quick point. If you could just repeat,4 because early on in Councilman Jones'5 question you quoted statistics as far as6 number of stops and number of actions7 taken. Could you make that clear again8 just so I understand it and everybody9 understands it.10 DEPUTY

Total11 stops is 10,205, of which 209 were12 actually given citations.13

So it14 kind of backs up the question I had and15 others had about the discretion that the16 police are using.17 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:18 Absolutely.19

I think20 that's very important. So thank you.21 And I hope you gentlemen can stay22 because --23 DEPUTY

I was24 hoping that maybe Lieutenant Healy will25 68 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 be able to stay.2

That's3 fine.4 DEPUTY

I'm5 actually due at a conference in6 Washington. I actually came up from7 there in order to go back down, and it's8 dealing with juvenile justice issues and9 I really would like to go back.10

Okay.11 DEPUTY

So I12 will excuse myself, if you don't mind.13

That's14 fine. It's just that there may be other15 issues come up during the testimony, but16 if Lieutenant Healy can stay, that's17 fine.18 DEPUTY

That19 will be great.20

Thank you21 both very much.22 DEPUTY

Thank23 you very much.24

The next25 69 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 panel that I have here to testify is2 Jeffrey Nadel, if I'm pronouncing that3 right, or Nadel and Mary Catherine Roper4 from the ACLU. Is she here?5 Oh, there you are. If you both6 could approach the table.7 (Witnesses approached witness8 table.)9

Jeffrey,10 I have your name down here first, so if11 you could just identify yourself for the12 record and proceed, and then Ms. Roper.13

Could you14 state your name for the record and begin15 testifying.16

Honorable members17 of the community, thank you so much for18 the opportunity. My name is Jeffrey19 Nadel. I'm the Vice-President of the20 National Youth Rights Association and the21 President of the National Youth Rights22 Association of Philadelphia.23 We all strive for the same24 goal. We want a safe city to call home.25 70 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 We want streets on which children can2 freely play. We want businesses that can3 operate without fear of theft or4 vandalism, businesses that can prosper5 and enrich all of our lives. We want a6 city that will live up to the colossal7 legacy of liberty and greatness left by8 our founding fathers on this very ground.9 So what we need to figure out is how to10 do it.11 What should inform our12 decision? What should inform our13 decision as a community? I think we can14 agree that science and research should15 play its part in helping us to understand16 what works and what doesn't. Our17 Constitution and the legacy of freedom18 bestowed upon us by our forebears, that19 too must play a central part. The voices20 within this city from each and every21 corner of this great city should have22 their say as well.23 We face the issue of24 Philadelphia's curfew and the proposed25 71 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 extension to it. Let's look at the2 science. Study after study has shown3 that curfews don't work. They simply do4 not reduce crime perpetrated by young5 people. They do not reduce the6 victimization of young people. At the7 very best, they simply move it from8 neighborhood to neighborhood. Surely9 that cannot be what we desire.10 You've all received copies of11 four studies that speak to this very12 point. And a thorough review of all13 relevant studies reveals a consensus14 conclusion among academics that curfews15 do not achieve their stated goals. In16 fact, this curfew imposes an undue burden17 on the City's businesses as well.18 I've always believed that in19 order to be sure that we are traveling in20 the right direction, we should look to21 the past. The sagacious dictates of our22 founding fathers in the form of the23 United States Constitution as it has been24 interpreted by the Supreme Court, young25 72 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 people have constitutional rights, and2 curfews clearly violate them. You all3 have copies of the caselaw to support4 that.5 The proposed extension of this6 curfew will do nothing but make it more7 burdensome for young people and8 businesses alike, all the while hampering9 effective policing, not enhancing it.10 Let's make this city safe.11 Let's make it the best it can be. But12 let us follow in the footsteps in the13 tradition of the greats before us. Let14 us heed the message of the empirical15 facts in front of us, and let us include16 young people in this mission, not exclude17 them. There is no surer way to create a18 relationship of hostility and distrust19 between the City leaders, law enforcement20 and young people than to exclude them21 from the discussion altogether and22 enforce a heavy-handed law against them23 without their consent. We can do this.24 We can. But my message, the researchers'25 73 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 message, the message of the United States2 Supreme Court is that a curfew is not the3 way to do it.4 Thank you all very much for the5 opportunity to address you. I'm open to6 any questions that you might have, and7 I'd love the opportunity to speak with8 you all, should any further questions9 come up.10

Thank11 you. Let's hear from Ms. Roper and then12 if we have questions for either, we can13 proceed from there.14 Ms. Roper.15

16 Thank you for allowing me to testify. 19 The American Civil Liberties20 Union of Pennsylvania urges the Council21 to reject this bill because it is22 unnecessary, unnecessarily complicated23 and burdensome, and almost certainly24 unconstitutional. m. 11 A police officer cannot tell12 from a distance whether a particular13 young person is 14 or 16. She cannot14 tell from a distance whether a particular15 young person is 17 or 18. And certainly16 can't tell whether any of those young17 people is on an errand for a parent or is18 out with permission or is on the way to19 or from employment. m. 25 75 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 And just a word off script here2 about the discretion that Deputy3 Commissioner Gillison talks about. An4 officer certainly has discretion not to5 arrest a young person, to send a young6 person home. The officer also has7 discretion to not believe the young8 person that he or she is out with9 permission, to believe a note is a10 forgery. Many young people don't even11 carry ID. How this is going to be12 enforced is really going to be about teen13 by teen interrogations by officers, and14 that is the scary thing. It is15 unnecessary. We do not have a wave of16 teen crime in this city. 20 Those incidents were called flash mobs,21 even when they only involved a handful of22 teens and were hyped unbelievably by the23 media. 14 We have other tools to deal15 with unruly crowds and with people who16 commit crimes like vandalism, theft or17 assault. 6 It has been less than a year since the7 ACLU and the firm of Kairys Rudovsky8 Messing and Feinberg brought suit against9 the City because of excessive police use10 of investigative detentions. Since then,11 we have settled with the City and have12 been working with the Police Department13 to create practices and protocols that14 focus police attention on criminal15 conduct rather than on focusing that16 attention on the identity of people who17 have the misfortune to live, work and18 visit in high-crime neighborhoods. 21 And, finally, City Council22 should not adopt this bill because it is23 almost certainly unconstitutional. It is24 far more restrictive than any curfew we25 78 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 have seen litigated and much more2 restrictive than many such ordinances3 that have been struck down across the4 country. 6 This is, quite simply, the7 wrong approach. We urge the Council to8 reject it. 10

Thank11 you. If I could start. I think there12 will be other questions, too.13 Ms. Roper, I think you heard in14 my question and other members' questions15 to Deputy Mayor Gillison, he pointed out,16 which I thought -- and that's why I asked17 him to repeat at the end of his18 testimony. I think there were over19 10,000 stops, but only 209 arrests. Does20 that -- how do you feel that that speaks21 to the discretion, which I think was --22 you brought up and a number of us brought23 up, that it's not like the police are24 hauling off everybody that they stop.25 79 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331

In fact, the police2 are stopping and questioning everyone3 they see. It's the 10,000 stops that are4 just as much of a problem as the 2005 citations issued.6 Our history in this city of who7 gets stopped by the police is very8 clearly demonstrated by statistics. I9 don't think it's going to be different in10 enforcement of the curfew.11

Okay.12 And I hear you and, you know, you talk13 about the media over-hyping things, and14 I'm not going to say that doesn't happen,15 but in all fairness, aren't you kind of16 under-hyping this? I mean, there have17 been problems in this city. I mean, the18 incidents in Center City that got the19 publicity, aren't they just part of it?20 For example, I hear a lot from newsstand21 owners how they are hassled a lot by22 groups of teens that go around. In other23 parts of the City, not Center City, there24 have been incidents by teens in the early25 80 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 to mid evening.2 So where I agree you don't want3 to over-hype, it seems like, with all due4 respect, you're kind of understating it5 like it's not that big a deal, We do not6 have a wave of teen crime in the City, a7 handful of incidents.8 I don't know --9

We --10

Hold on.11 I don't know if you want to tell that guy12 that got stomped at 15th and Sansom that13 it's not that big a deal.14

I didn't say that15 teen crime isn't a big deal. I said we16 don't have --17

Well, you18 said we don't have a big wave.19

Excuse me. May I20 respond?21

Yeah.22

I did not say teen23 crime isn't a big deal. I said we don't24 have a wave. We don't have an increase25 81 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 of teen crime in the City. We have other2 ways of addressing crimes that happen,3 whether they are by groups of teens or4 other people. There are assaults all5 over the City. Heaven knows that what we6 need is effective policing that's7 addressed at people who are engaged in8 criminal conduct, not police attention9 directed to everyone under 20. That is10 my problem with this, which is rather11 than asking police to focus on12 indications of criminal activity, we're13 asking people to go around trying to14 figure out how old people are.15

But16 haven't -- but there have been --17 wouldn't you call them a number of18 incidents that have resulted from teens,19 particularly teens in large groups?20

Certainly there21 have been crimes that resulted from teens22 in small groups and in large groups.23 There have been many crimes that result24 from adults in large groups and small25 82 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 groups, but we don't suggest that we're2 going to keep everyone between the age of3 20 and 30 inside between the hours of4 9:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.5

Okay.6 All right. I just think -- and I hear7 what you're saying. And if you heard the8 first question I asked, I asked about the9 discretion and the concern with10 understanding the kids can be out there11 for legitimate reasons, but, again, with12 all due respect, I think you're13 understating the problem. So I think14 there's a middle ground here that we can15 reach.16

And I appreciate17 that. And let me just be clear. I'm not18 saying that teens don't commit crimes.19 Teens and adults commit crimes. I'm20 saying the effective way to fight crime21 is to focus on criminal behavior and not22 on simply the identity of who is on the23 streets. We've had that issue, right?24 We brought that lawsuit, because we25 83 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 showed from statistics, and obviously2 that was settled, it was not litigated,3 but we've already made the point that our4 police sometimes focus on the identity of5 people rather than what they are doing,6 and that is not effective policing.7

Okay.8 Thank you.9 Councilman Jones.10

Thank you,11 Mr. Chairman. I was just getting ready12 to ask my colleague Councilwoman13 Blackwell the current census of young14 people in the Youth Study Center, and I15 think it's a little over 350-some-odd16 young people. And what's the size of the17 center being built in your district?18 What's the capacity? Do you remember19 that offhand?20

You21 mean these children that are coming from22 your district to mine?23

Yes. Yes.24 How many of them is it?25 84 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331

I'm not getting in2 the middle of that.3

It's close4 to 400 or so at capacity.5

That's6 exactly right.7

So there is8 crime in the City of Philadelphia, number9 one.10 Number two, I applaud what you11 represent, which is freedom of speech,12 constitutional rights of citizens. That13 is the balance that we have to have. The14 reason I asked Deputy Mayor Gillison for15 statistical data to support why this16 curfew was necessary, it was in17 anticipation of this type of questioning18 of it.19 So it is important for him to20 quantify why we need this curfew. And21 the reason I say that is, the ink wasn't22 dry on my certification of being elected23 to me being a part of -- being knocked on24 the door, having to go out to 54th and25 85 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Upland Way, which is the killing field in2 Wynnefield, and to stand over a body of a3 young man that was killed. He and his4 brother, who was maybe 14 at the time,5 were out at 1:00 in the morning standing6 on the corner. And I can't help but7 think if that curfew was in effect, would8 that have changed the situation. I don't9 know it. I don't expect you to know it.10 But these are questions this body has to11 struggle with.12 I will go back tonight to a13 vigil about the young lady that was14 murdered, 31-year-old, in the middle of a15 crossfire between two young groups of --16 I call them young thundercats. If you17 ever watched cartoons, you would know18 what I meant to the reference. But the19 point is, they murdered her.20 The vigil last night, the21 neighbor said, Why are there 50 young22 people standing on the corner at this23 time of night? And I have to answer them24 as an elected official. I understand25 86 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 their constitutional rights, but there's2 also public safety involved, and that's3 why this is in front of this Committee.4 So I want you to understand5 that 30 years ago, I probably would have6 been throwing rocks at this bill. Today7 as a citizen, a taxpayer and three blocks8 from where that murder occurred -- and I9 won't ask you on the record where you10 live.11

I'll tell you. I12 live in Mantua. I'm quite familiar13 with --14

All right.15 Where do you live?16

University City.17

So you got18 skin in the game.19

Yes.20

You have21 skin in the game, so, therefore, I22 respect that. The point of it is, I have23 to tell that neighbor what we are doing24 to help make them safe. Because that25 87 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 lady, all she did, her crime was putting2 those kids in a car getting ready to take3 them home and wound up in the crossfire.4 So I have to balance with civil5 liberties and the constitutional right to6 live and to live without being murdered7 in the streets. So that's why we're8 debating this.9

Councilman, I think10 that you're talking about neighborhoods11 that have been crying out for additional12 police resources and additional police13 support for quite a while. That support14 should come and it should be aimed at the15 sources of crime and the sources of16 violence. Police officers are trained to17 look for the signs of criminal activity,18 to anticipate criminal activity, to do19 investigations to find the sources of20 criminal activity. That is where their21 time should be going, not checking the22 ID's of 16-year-olds.23

And, Councilman24 Jones, I think you made two really25 88 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 important points. Obviously they're2 incredibly tragic instances of violence.3 The fact of the matter is that if you4 have a criminal intent on committing a5 violent act, a curfew is not going to6 deter that person. And I think you asked7 an incredibly crucial question of the8 Deputy Mayor when you asked what are the9 studies out there, what are the10 statistics out there, and his response11 was that I'm sure there are a lot of12 national studies out there. But I've13 read the studies and I furnished copies,14 and there are a lot of studies out there,15 and the consensus among virtually all of16 them is that curfews, they don't reduce17 crime, they don't reduce victimization.18 They don't help and they don't achieve19 their stated goals.20 So we do need to look at the21 problem, and effective policing is22 important and increased police presence23 is important, and several members of the24 Committee and the Deputy Mayor mentioned25 89 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 that when there is increased police2 presence, that's what prevents crime.3 But singling out a group of people solely4 because of their age and targeting them5 for that reason in what has to be an6 arbitrary and rather inaccurate fashion,7 because a lot of these people don't have8 licenses on them, police discretion, but9 often that turns into arbitrary policing,10 it's a big problem. So I really11 appreciate those questions, and I want to12 just let you know that we can answer them13 and --14

I want you15 to understand that this body -- I16 remember your testimony when we sat here17 for six hours to talk about overly18 zealous, aggressive police action. So we19 get that part. The pendulum swings in a20 different direction when I stand on the21 corner at a prayer vigil of someone who22 has been murdered. And it is our job to23 take your valued testimony and quantified24 statistical analysis as to this impact of25 90 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 curfews, but to weigh it out in a way2 that kind of creates safety hopefully,3 fairness definitely and deals with the4 problem at hand, which is there is crime5 in those communities, whether it's Mantua6 or West Philly. I believe between our7 two respective police districts, the 19th8 and the 16th and I believe you have the9 18th?10

Yes.11

Those are12 high-crime areas, and I need to quantify13 from Deputy Mayor Gillison how many of14 those perpetrators are young people in15 violation of what would be an16 unconstitutional, based on your17 testimony, curfew. And we need to look18 at that, and if that's the case, if we19 can remove 25 targets off of that corner20 at 58th and Malvern, I'd like to do that.21

Thank22 you, Councilman.23 Councilwoman Blackwell.24

Thank25 91 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you, Mr. Chairman. I represent neighbors2 in the 12th, 16th, 18th and 19th. So I3 have four police districts. And, in4 fact, living in Mantua and Penn bring up5 some other important issues, which is we6 have three or four police forces, how7 this legislation affects them, because8 there are many police forces, especially9 in many of those areas.10 And I'm reminded -- I heard11 Ms. Roper talk about being in a maybe12 distressed neighborhood and seemingly13 being singled out. I'm reminded of many14 years ago when I was in the subway with15 SEPTA Police. It was the SEPTA Police16 who then called the Philadelphia Police,17 who handcuffed me and locked me up for18 feeding homeless people. Some people19 don't like you to feed homeless people;20 some do. So it was their opportunity,21 some misguided individuals, who thought22 they could stop me from feeding homeless23 people by arresting me. Obviously they24 couldn't do that then and they can't do25 92 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 it now.2 But my point is that I think we3 do have to be very careful.4 I'll join you at 58th and5 Malvern for that candlelight vigil6 tonight and come back downtown for our7 meeting with the Mayor's Commission on8 African and Caribbean Immigrant Affairs.9 I went to a town meeting just10 last week with Southwest that deals a lot11 with the 12th. We're having a meeting12 with Mothers in Charge at Saint Jude's13 Baptist Church I guess next week. And so14 we're all trying to do what we can to15 create forums and opportunities for the16 community to be involved.17 And having said all of that, I18 still believe that there are many parts19 of this legislation that are not clear20 and that may not be fair and that need21 clarification before we're ready to move22 on and take away civil liberties. You23 know, the right to be free is part of24 what we are as Americans and part of what25 93 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 people have fought for, from women to2 minorities, all of us have fought for3 from the beginning of time, and I guard4 those freedoms very carefully. And so I5 think we have to be very, very careful to6 ensure that we answer all the questions7 that surround this issue so that we're8 being as fair as we possibly can before9 we pass legislation taking away civil10 rights.11 Thank you.12

Thank13 you, Councilwoman.14 And if I could just, not to15 belabor the point -- we have other16 witnesses, so I don't want to go too17 long. But let me just start, I guess.18 The general theory I'm thinking about19 under this, I mean, governmental bodies20 all the time put regulations in against21 all kind of people, businesses,22 individuals, whatever. Oftentimes it's23 based on a history of a problem there.24 It doesn't mean every one of that group25 94 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 is a problem, but a certain percentage2 has become a problem. And I guess that's3 where, Ms. Roper, I just kind of disagree4 when you use the word it only involved a5 handful of teens. It's a little more6 than a handful that's a problem out7 there. I'm not saying every teen is.8 I'm not saying the majority is. But I9 guess the question is, are there enough10 to justify taking further action or11 further regulations against the whole12 group. I mean, that's what it breaks13 down to. I personally think there has14 been. You obviously don't think there15 is. But, I mean, I think that's what it16 comes down to. I think there is enough17 evidence, not just the couple things that18 have gotten the most publicity, but19 incidents like Councilman Jones talks20 about, and we all can give our stories.21 That's why I think we need further22 regulations, because there have been23 enough of a group of people, in this case24 teens, who have been a problem that we25 95 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 have to take further action, further2 regulations.3

Well, and our4 position is not that you shouldn't do5 something, but that you should do6 something that is directed at people who7 are behaving like troublemakers, not do8 something aimed at millions of young9 people. I mean, if you're going to ask10 what is more efficient, it's more11 efficient to use your police skills and12 go after people who look to be causing13 trouble, who are near trouble, et cetera.14 That's what police are trained to do,15 rather than starting to check ID's of16 literally millions of people.17 I would just -- and I18 understand that you need to move on.19 Councilman Jones, I would be as20 interested as you, I promise you, as21 seeing whatever statistics the City does22 have about youth crime.23

And, Councilman24 Greenlee, I think you bring up a very25 96 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 good point, and the information that I2 would want to introduce is that the vast3 majority of murders are committed by4 individuals over the age of 18. The vast5 majority of drug use is done by6 individuals over 18.7 So, yes, there are serious8 problems out there, but we're not going9 to apply a curfew to 20- to 30-year-olds10 or 30- to 40-year-olds, and the reason is11 because we find it antithetical to the12 ideas that serve as the foundation of13 this country and our heritage.14 So there are issues that need15 to be addressed, and that's incredibly16 important, but, you know, the curfew is17 just not the effective way to go about18 doing that.19

Okay. We20 respectfully disagree on that, but21 Councilwoman Brown.22

We do23 respectfully disagree. I've resisted as24 much as I can. There are a number of25 97 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 challenges, I guess, I would take with2 both of your testimony, and so one is,3 you make the presumption that all parents4 are doing the right thing. One reason5 why we're even in this discussion is6 because there are too many of our parents7 not doing where they should be. And the8 second one -- and there are several9 others -- I will be pleased to sit with10 you in the presence of Family Court11 judges who every single day have to make12 awful decisions about children 18 years13 and under in this town. Judge Kevin14 Dougherty ad Judge Lori Dumas and all of15 those that occupy 1801 Vine Street, we16 have a whole industry devoted to getting17 young people back on the right track,18 because things like curfew tools and19 others are not in place to help parents.20 Not to penalize parents, but to help21 parents who end up having incorrigible22 young people.23 Thank you for your testimony.24

Thank25 98 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you.2 Thank you for being here.3 Thank you for your testimony.4

Thank you.5

Thank you.6

My next7 panel -- and I want to make sure who is8 here before I call them. I have five9 other people on my list. Oh, I'm sorry.10 Is Jordan here? Jordan, I was told you11 weren't going to testify, but then you12 maybe wanted to add a couple points to at13 least what Councilman Kenney said. So14 I'm sorry.15 (Witness approached witness16 table.)17

Identify18 yourself and proceed with what you'd like19 to say.20

Jordan21 Harris, Executive Director for the22 Philadelphia Youth Commission.23 Councilman, the Commission is24 going to provide their written testimony25 99 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 on the issue. Because this is such a big2 issue pertaining to young people, the3 Commission has actually sought to reach4 even outside of the Commissioners to talk5 with additional young people to get a6 consensus on how young people throughout7 our city feel about this issue, and they8 will be providing written testimony on9 that.10 I did want to respond. When11 Deputy Mayor Gillison was being12 questioned, there were certain issues13 that he said that we would be able to14 cover, and I didn't want the day to pass15 without us addressing those issues.16 What the Youth Commission was17 able to do, working with Deputy Mayor18 Gillison this summer, was kick off an19 initiative that we called a Teen Safe20 Zone Initiative. And what we basically21 did was, we provided young people with22 positive opportunities at night on the23 weekend throughout the City. We did this24 for three weekends right after the Mayor25 100 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 lowered the curfew temporarily. We were2 able to provide those kind of services.3 We were able to engage more than a4 thousand young people over those three5 weeks.6 Our marketing tool -- and this7 goes directly to what Councilman Kenney8 was saying. Our marketing tools were9 strictly Facebook, Twitter and text10 messaging. There was no -- there were11 no, you know, handing out of flyers. We12 had flyers produced, but all that we13 really did was utilize Facebook, Twitter14 and text messaging. And why that's15 important is, we wholeheartedly believe16 that while the curfew and enforcement is17 important, that providing a comprehensive18 plan for young people and what young19 people can do throughout our city on the20 weekend and at nights, we believe that21 that is clearly why we didn't see any22 more incidents like we have in the past.23 For example, our first event24 where we had more than 500 young people25 101 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 at the Erie Lanes Bowling Alley, more2 than 500 young people, was put together3 via a Twitter, Facebook and text4 messaging campaign in two days. In two5 days, 500 young people responded, because6 we were using the modes and the medians7 that the young people respond to.8 There was a report that a young9 lady was stabbed at our event. That was10 not true. The incident happened several11 blocks away, and it happened between12 young people that knew each other. The13 reason why I bring that up is because14 according to the Police Commissioner, the15 young man that took part in that event16 was actually a young man who had been17 cited for being in one of the flash mob18 altercations a year prior.19 Why that is important is that20 that shows us that the marketing tools21 that we were using were getting directly22 to the young people that had taken part23 in some of the non-positive activities24 that happened down on South Street and25 102 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 downtown.2 So while the Commission will3 put in writing our full testimony, we4 wanted to make it clear that we are5 utilizing and we have been working with6 Deputy Mayor Gillison, we have been7 working with the Administration to8 utilize social media to reach out to our9 young people, and that if we are serious10 about addressing the issue of youth11 violence, it must come from us seriously12 appropriating the funds to provide a13 comprehensive plan of what young people14 can do on the weekends and at night.15

We16 certainly agree that it's -- and I think17 we've all said this in different ways.18 This is not just about enforcement and19 not just about police. And I certainly20 congratulate you -- I'm sure everybody21 does -- on the work you've done. And we22 obviously need positive environments for23 young people too, and you're helping24 provide that. Thank you.25 103 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Councilman Jones.2

I'd echo3 that. This Youth Commission has taken on4 a whole new life under you. We5 appreciate, us old heads, appreciate6 getting some insight as to the changes,7 generational changes, the way we8 communicate, the way young people9 interact. We would be clueless without10 some of the inputs from organizations11 like yours.12 But I'm going to have to put13 you on the spot. This legislation -- I14 understand we need more money for15 recreation and engagement, positive16 engagement activities, but this17 legislation before us today, not as Chair18 of the Commission, but as an individual19 who has the finger on the pulse of young20 people, should we pass this today?21

How about22 we do this: How about Fernando Jones,23 who is actually Chair of the Commission,24 come up and -- hold up. Hear me out,25 104 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Councilman. He's a young man. He's2 younger than me. We're going to prepare3 our official testimony, but if you want4 off the cuff how you feel, I think that5 Fernando, who was -- Fernando, you 22?6

Three.7

I want to8 know about Fernando too. He can come up.9 I asked you. Jordan, I asked you.10

My personal11 opinion is that there needs to be12 stability, there needs to be discipline,13 and that needs to be enforced in the14 City, and young people need to know where15 that line is. I think realistically when16 I was 18 years old, I heard there was a17 curfew. I had never been stopped for a18 curfew, and because I had never been19 stopped for a curfew, I really didn't20 even think about the curfew. I think21 what you saw was enforcement of the22 curfew. And you can't assume that young23 people just know that there's a curfew in24 place if the law isn't enforced. So if25 105 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 I, a 16-year-old, can roam the street at2 12:30, regardless of the parent factor,3 because I mean that is a part of this,4 but regardless of the parent factor, if I5 can roam the street at 12:30 and no one6 say anything to me, then I'm going to7 automatically assume that the curfew is a8 joke. And I'm going to be honest with9 you. When I was 14, 15, nobody really --10 my mother was my curfew, not the City,11 and that's because there really wasn't12 that heavy enforcement. So I think you13 did see heavy enforcement of the curfew,14 and I think that's one of the things that15 made a difference, because young people16 got the message that there's a curfew.17 So if this legislation is to18 pass, I think the message will still be19 clear that young people understand that20 there is a curfew in place and that21 that's something --22

He23 answered like a budding politician.24

Yeah, I25 106 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 know.2

And the3 short answer to the question is what?4

My short5 answer is, yes, there needs to be a6 curfew.7

Okay.8 Thank you very much.9

Thank10 you.11 Fernando.12

We're going13 to let you off. That's as close as we're14 going to get.15

Fernando,16 would you like to add something? Just17 identify yourself for the record, please.18

Fernando Jones,19 Chairperson of the Youth Commission.20 I don't want to really21 associate myself specifically with the22 Commission. I think it's more important23 as a personal view how I view the curfew.24 But working with the Commission, I do25 107 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 have access to speak to youth in the City2 as well as my peers on the Commission,3 and we all agree with having a curfew.4 We think that over the summer, it worked5 out effectively.6 At the same time, there's7 always going to be dissenting ideas about8 any kind of legislation that comes up,9 and some of those concerns that came up10 were the fact that I think -- I believe11 in the old law, the hours were extended12 on the weekends, and maybe you might say13 that those are the times that crime might14 happen more, but from the youth that I15 talked to, for several of them, they feel16 that they have that time during the week.17 Follow the curfew, go home early, but the18 weekends are the only real time to19 actually do anything, whether it's going20 to the movies or just hanging out.21 Another concern was the fact22 that this new bill separates23 13-year-olds, 14- and 15-year-olds, 16-24 and 17-year-olds, and one of the concerns25 108 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 was that all those age groups are in high2 school at the same time, and the fact of3 the matter is that some freshmen are4 friends with seniors, some sophomores are5 friends with juniors, and some people6 were concerned that they won't be able to7 hang out with their friends because of8 the hour difference.9 So one of the possible10 solutions to that was to maybe create11 some kind of medium to allow -- maybe12 have like 30 minutes of crossover time13 where the younger people could hang out14 with the older kids or something.15 And some of the Commissioners16 pointed out that, like Jordan keeps17 saying, we need a comprehensive plan.18 The curfew alone won't solve anything,19 and I totally agree with that. Like he20 said, we were doing the Teen Safe Zones21 over the summer, but even that alone I22 don't think will solve the problem. You23 can't expect the entire city to come to24 Erie Lanes. Like what is everyone else25 109 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 going to do? And I think it's really2 important for government entities and3 non-government entities to advocate,4 promote or even create opportunities for5 kids to do stuff at nighttime.6

I want to7 echo and thank you, Mr. Jordan, and you,8 Mr. Jones, for your input. This is9 important for us. I mean, we're not just10 sitting here not hearing you. You have a11 responsibility to convey to us what we12 need to know. And so I appreciate the13 work you do. I heard you with my good14 ear about also providing resources so15 that we don't just suppress young people,16 but we engage young people to do positive17 activities.18

And one19 thing I will say, Councilman, is that we20 have been working with Commissioner Sue21 Slawson and Deputy Mayor DiBerardinis22 about recreation. While I agree with23 what Deputy Mayor Gillison said, there24 are activities, but what we have to be25 110 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 sure that we do is make sure that those2 activities that we're spending money on3 are the activities that young people want4 to do. There's no sense of us having the5 activities if there aren't activities.6 So I will say that there has7 been collaboration on how to get out and8 aggressively engage young people to find9 out in 2011 what those activities are,10 because those activities may be11 different. And one of the things that I12 know that a lot of young people have even13 said is that sometimes we do too much14 activities, because sometimes it's not15 even about the activities. It's just16 about providing the space where they can17 come and go. I mean, if you watched18 Friends on TV, they went into the coffee19 house and just relaxed. It really wasn't20 an activity. So just like adults like to21 have places where they can go and just22 relax and talk, young people like the23 same thing. So it doesn't always have to24 be a structured activity, but sometimes25 111 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 it could just be a safe environment where2 I can come and just be a young person.3

Can I charge4 you guys with a task as well by way of5 the left hand of punishment, which this6 may be, but the right hand of fellowship,7 which recreation and education and8 engagement is. We need to kind of get a9 better sense of what -- for example, in10 my district I had no idea that skateboard11 parks would be that popular. I had no12 idea. I do now. We had one in one area13 and another area said, No, we have to14 have one as well. I'm thinking15 traditional basketball courts or hockey16 rinks. No, they wanted skateboard parks.17 So those kind of activities in18 a regional perspective that provide safe19 havens for people as opposed to crossing20 boundaries that sometimes we don't know21 exist. So if we could work with the22 Recreation Department and work with23 District Councilpeople to kind of say,24 Hey, Councilman, you're going to need not25 112 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 one skateboard park but two, because2 there's a conflict here, even though,3 yes, we should ignore tribalism and4 things like that in neighborhoods, but if5 you ignore it, it has an ugly way of6 presenting itself in the worst way.7 So if you can guide us a little8 bit on those kinds of issues as to when9 we make expenditures for recreation, that10 this recreation center and this11 recreation center are very vastly12 different, and so those kinds of inputs13 would be helpful.14

We've15 started the conversation with16 Commissioner Slawson. They've been17 extremely supportive, and I think that18 it's something that we definitely look19 forward to making sure that we can do,20 and we'll work closely with all of the21 different District Councilpeople and even22 the Councillors-at-large that have a23 concern over what's going on in different24 neighborhoods. We would love to do that.25 113 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331

Thank2 you.3 Councilwoman Brown.4

We do need5 to thank you both for your important6 testimony and insight, because you bring7 a perspective not represented at this8 table here. And I will put on the record9 that it was the work of my office that10 created the Youth Commission --11

Yes, ma'am.12

-- last13 term, number one.14 Number two, so that we're not15 recreating the wheel, you should know16 that the former Rec Commissioner and the17 current Rec Commissioner actually started18 what you're advising us to do, and the19 input from the former Rec Commissioner20 was to have what are called teen centers,21 and they were -- the capital investments22 were made into rec centers around the23 City to create a space just the way you24 described, where teens can just hang out,25 114 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 watch videos and do what young people do2 when you're just hanging out off the3 streets but in a safe environment.4 So to underscore what5 Councilman Jones has already suggested,6 we would urge you to continue those7 discussions and advise, because you're8 really advising the department heads how9 best we can better serve young people in10 the City. So the work that you do is11 important.12 Thank you.13

Thank you.14

Thank you.15

I just16 want to add, I certainly agree, what you17 said is very valuable in us putting all18 this together, because you guys much19 understand it. I think we were out on20 the corners a few years ago, so we might21 not be right on top of it these days.22 Thank you both very much.23 Right now I have five more24 people listed. I don't know if they're25 115 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 all here. And let me just add, I don't2 want to cut off or cut down on anybody's3 testimony, but we do have to have this4 room available for another event in a5 little bit. So if I could just throw6 that out there.7 I have Bobby Williams, who I8 know is here. Mr. Williams, hi. If you9 could come up.10 Anthony Murphy of Town Watch.11 I didn't see him. Is there anybody here12 representing Town Watch? No? Okay.13 Mike Harris. Mike, if you14 could come up also.15 I see Ms. Johnson, Mothers in16 Charge. Come up. And I just have South17 Philly Town Watch. Is there anybody --18

Bella Vista Town19 Watch.20

Okay.21 It's down here as South Philly. If you22 want to come up. Just sit in one of23 these chairs right behind here so we can24 keep it moving as quickly as possible.25 116 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 (Witnesses approached witness2 table.)3

Whoever4 would like to start.5

Good morning,6 Councilman.7

Ms.8 Johnson, please.9

Good morning.10 Thank you for the opportunity to testify11 this morning.12 Very important hearing, very13 important testimony, because our children14 are our future, and we've got to really15 work hard for them.16 On behalf of Mothers in Charge,17 its Founder and Executive Director of an18 organization whose mission since its19 conception in 2003 has been to reduce the20 number of violent acts in our community21 and provide support, education on22 violence prevention to children, families23 and the community. Mothers in Charge is24 comprised of impassioned mothers,25 117 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 grandmothers, aunts and sisters who are2 committed to working toward the goal of3 saving lives. We desire to live and4 deserve to live in an environment that is5 safe. Mothers in Charge is working6 towards the goal of making a positive7 difference in our community.8 Mothers in Charge deals with9 the devastating numbers of shootings and10 homicides of many of our young people11 that are involved in crime every day. We12 understand while Bill No. 110633 is not a13 cure-all, it is a first step and a major14 step in keeping our youth and our15 communities and city safe.16 Our organization is committed17 to do all that we can possibly do to18 combat violence. Mothers in Charge19 believes also we have a serious message20 to deliver to mothers of young people21 that are ignoring the curfew. We hope to22 have an opportunity to speak with the23 youth and mothers who would ignore this24 curfew.25 118 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 We recently hosted a community2 forum with standing-room only titled "Go3 Get Your Kid," an opportunity to give4 parents a voice, but also more important,5 we had over 25 organizations there to6 provide support and information for7 parents who are looking for support for8 young people. And children really do9 want and need serious structure and rules10 in their lives for their safety. Our11 main goal is that mothers don't continue12 to join our organization because they've13 lost a son, a daughter or loved one to14 violence, and we don't want to continue15 to see juveniles housed at Philadelphia16 Industrial Correctional Center or the17 Youth Study Center because of bad choices18 and decisions.19 So, yes, whatever we can do as20 an organization to support the amendments21 that are contained in Bill No. 110633,22 Mothers in Charge pledges our support,23 but also to support the children.24 Thank you for providing me the25 119 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 opportunity to testify, and I'll be happy2 to answer any questions. If there could3 be given an opportunity once again to be4 concerned with the children's whereabouts5 on any given day, I am sure that most of6 the women in our organization would7 choose an extended curfew to help save a8 life.9

Thank10 you, Ms. Johnson. I appreciate it very11 much, and thank you for all you do and12 your organization does.13 I don't know if anybody will14 have any question, but why don't we hear15 from everyone, and then if there's16 questions, it might be for generally.17 Mr. Harris.18

Good morning,19 Councilman Greenlee. My name is Mike20 Harris. I am the Director of Field21 Operations for the Philadelphia22 Anti-Drug/Anti-Violence Network. Our23 agency has been in existence now for the24 past 22 years, and prior to that, we were25 120 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 better known as the Crisis Intervention2 Network.3 We are here to try to also4 stand to support Bill 110633. As all of5 us have seen firsthand or watched the6 news on TV or heard it on the radio, we7 were very disturbed and terrified by the8 actions and behavior of some of our youth9 which were displayed on our streets this10 past summer. Most of the youth that were11 involved were under the curfew age. I12 believe that the approach to amend and to13 pass the bill will be a step in the right14 direction for the climate and safety,15 first for our youth but also for the16 future of our city and other great17 citizens that live here.18 But let me also say this, that19 I also recognize that government alone is20 not the final answer and government alone21 cannot resolve this problem alone, but I22 also know that this is a step in the23 right direction.24 But I say in closing, together25 121 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 we can make a difference in the lives and2 especially of our youth, who are our most3 valuable resource in our city. So I4 thank you very much.5

Thank6 you, Mr. Harris. Also thank you for all7 the work your organization does.8 Mr. Williams, good to see you.9 I usually see you in my office. Good to10 see you here. You can identify yourself11 for the record and proceed.12

My name is Bobby13 Williams. I'm a community activist14 almost 58 years, and so sitting here15 today listening, God bless all the things16 that this young man is saying and this17 young lady.18 I didn't hear one time the law19 loitering. We know that that is the20 oldest law in the United States. Here in21 this city, we also have the blue laws.22 All of this is before the curfew laws.23 So I'm also in support of whatever it is24 that you're going to do.25 122 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 Also, we want to also offer2 solutions. I've heard conversation here3 about kids don't have anything to do,4 give them this and give them that.5 Everything start at home. We have to6 understand that everybody do not come7 from where everybody come from. So I8 heard here today was said it was a9 playground or a center right around the10 corner, but they didn't know it, and11 that's very true throughout this whole12 City of Philadelphia. We have provided a13 lot of the things. I heard 1801 Vine14 Street. It brung my mind to Saint Gabe,15 Glen Mills.16 We have so many tools already17 that we, parents, kids, do not take -- we18 do not go to those places to get the help19 that we need. We do not listen. So we20 want to offer a lot of solutions. One of21 them, the first one would be that we22 would start cleaning up where we live,23 block by block, individual by individual,24 whether or not you own your home, whether25 123 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 or not you're in an apartment, whether or2 not you're buying a home. We believe3 that that's what we should do. We4 believe that that would help curb some of5 the flash mobs. We believe it would cut6 down on a lot of the crime.7 Also, we believe spiritually8 that we should do the moral expect, as a9 lot of us do. We have to come about10 doing those things.11 And I just want to thank you12 for this time today, and we about the13 solution part. We support the bill 10014 percent. Thank you.15

Thank16 you, Mr. Williams. Thank you for coming17 down.18 Sir, if you'd like to come19 forward in one of those seats.20 Is there anyone else here to21 testify on this bill?22 (No response.)23

Okay.24 Great.25 124 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 You'll be our wrap-up act2 there. If you could identify yourself3 for the record.4

My name is Fred5 Manfred. I'm with the Bella Vista Town6 Watch organization, secretary there.7 We are here to support the8 curfew. We want to support it9 unanimously. In fact, last night I10 attended a PSA-1 meeting within the11 Hawthorne neighborhood. There were12 30-some neighbors in attendance, all who13 energetically supported the curfew. We14 have seen a very positive result from the15 curfew, particularly along our section of16 South Street. There's been far less17 grouping and ponding of youth. And I18 don't even say teenagers, because we have19 seen it younger than teenagers. And we20 have seen more of our neighbors coming21 out. We've seen young professionals. We22 have seen families strolling along South23 Street taking advantage of the commerce.24 So we are just here to support25 125 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 the curfew.2

And let3 me just ask you, sir, based on kind of4 the question I asked of Ms. Roper. It's5 my position there has been enough6 problems with young people,7 unfortunately. Obviously it's not all8 young people, but you live in that area.9 Have you seen what -- I mean, it's10 obviously not a small amount, right? I11 mean, you've seen a sizable amount of12 young people that unfortunately have13 caused some problems.14

And young people15 themselves, it's not the problem. The16 problem is the sense of aimlessness. I17 mean, you can sense that they're just not18 there for an objective. They're not19 there to participate in our restaurants20 or those kinds of things. They're just21 grouping and ponding and, therefore,22 keeping others, like myself, away from23 the South Street area.24

I got25 126 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 you. Thank you very much, sir.2

Thank you.3

Again, no4 one else here to testify on this bill?5 (No response.)6

Thank7 you. That will conclude our public8 hearing, and in just a few minutes, we9 will go -- hopefully just about a10 minute -- we'll go to the public meeting.11 Thank you. Thank you all for being here12 and for your attendance.13 (Pause.)14

It's now15 good afternoon. Thank you for waiting.16 Sorry for the delay. We have a quorum17 for our meeting, including Council18 President Verna, and I would recognize19 Councilwoman Reynolds Brown regarding an20 amendment to this bill.21

Yes,22 Mr. Chairman. In response to a number of23 legitimate concerns raised by members of24 this Committee, we're offering an25 127 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 amendment, and I will be brief. We are2 amending the language that says "shall be3 a fine not to exceed $500" to "may be a4 fine not to exceed $500." And we're5 changing the number of days that an6 individual or parent will receive a7 letter. We're changing that from ten8 days to give parents 30 days to respond9 to a violation, and we are adding10 language that seeks or provides a sunset11 provision. "The changes to The12 Philadelphia Code, as authorized by this13 ordinance, shall lapse on December 15,14 2013," Mr. Chairman. So I move that the15 bill be amended.16 (Duly seconded.)17

It's been18 moved and seconded that the bill be19 amended.20 All in favor say aye.21 (Aye.)22

Opposed?23 (No response.)24

Hearing25 128 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 none, the bill is amended.2 Again, Councilwoman Reynolds3 Brown.4

Yes,5 Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill No.6 110633, as amended, be reported out of7 Committee with a favorable recommendation8 and further move that the rules of9 Council be suspended so to permit first10 reading.11 (Duly seconded.)12

It's been13 moved and seconded.14 All in favor please say aye.15 (Aye.)16

Opposed?17 (No response.)18

Hearing19 none, Bill No. 110633, as amended,20 reported out of this Committee with a21 favorable recommendation with a rules22 suspension.23 That concludes the business24 before this Committee. Thank you all25 129 10/12/11 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 1106331 very much for your attendance and your2 participation.3 Thank you.4 (Committee on Public Safety5 concluded at 12:20 p.m.)6 - - -7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 130 CERTIFICATE2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the3 proceedings, evidence and objections are4 contained fully and accurately in the5 stenographic notes taken by me upon the6 foregoing matter on October 12, 2011, and that7 this is a true and correct transcript of same.8 --------------------13 MICHELE L. MURPHY14 RPR-Notary Public15 (The foregoing certification of this19 transcript does not apply to any reproduction20 of the same by any means, unless under the21 direct control and/or supervision of the22 certifying reporter.)23