Committee Hearing, December 14, 2010

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY3 Room 400, City Hall6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, December 14, 20107 10:25 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, CHAIR10 COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE11 COUNCILMAN WILLIAM K. GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR.12 COUNCILWOMAN MARIA D. QUINONES-SANCHEZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO, JR.13 BILL 100722 - An ordinance amending Chapter 10-818 of The Philadelphia Code to provide15 that no person shall carry a firearm on public streets or public property unless the person16 is licensed to carry such firearm by a political subdivision of the Commonwealth of17 Pennsylvania... RESOLUTION 100731 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Public Safety to19 hold a public hearing to consider and evaluate the issues surfacing around the Philadelphia20 Police Department and the conduct of its officers.21 - - -23 2

Good2 morning. The Public Safety Committee is3 now in session. We have two bills today,4 and we just want to first recognize a5 quorum. I'm Councilwoman Donna Reed6 Miller, Chair of Public Safety. To my7 left is Councilman Greenlee, a member of8 this Committee. To my far left is9 Councilman Frank Rizzo, who is also a10 member of the Committee. And to my11 right, far right, is Councilman Curtis12 Jones, who is also a member of this13 Committee.14 Will the Clerk please read the15 bill into the record.16

Bill No. 100722,17 amending Chapter 10-818 of The18 Philadelphia Code to provide that no19 person shall carry a firearm on public20 streets or public property unless the21 person is licensed to carry such firearm22 by a political subdivision of the23 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, regardless24 of whether the person possesses a license25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 issued in another state, under certain2 terms and conditions.3

Thank4 you.5 I believe our only witness for6 this bill is Deputy Mayor for Public7 Safety, Everett Gillison. Please sit at8 the table and don't forget to speak into9 the mike and identify yourself. Thank10 you. And proceed with your testimony.11 (Witness approached witness12 table.)13 DEPUTY

Thank14 you. Good morning, Councilwoman Miller15 and members of the Public Safety16 Committee. 17 Gillison. I am the Deputy Mayor for18 Public Safety. Thank you for the19 opportunity to appear before you today on20 behalf of the Nutter Administration to21 testify on Bill No. 1 firearm upon the public streets or on2 public property in the City unless that3 person is licensed by a political4 subdivision of the Commonwealth of5 Pennsylvania, regardless of whether such6 person possesses a license issued by7 another state to carry a firearm or8 licensed to hunt. "11 In order to obtain a license to12 carry a concealed weapon in Pennsylvania,13 a resident must apply to his or her14 county Sheriff or the Police Commissioner15 in Philadelphia to issue the license. In16 accordance with Pennsylvania law, the17 Sheriff's Office or our Police Department18 performs background and criminal history19 checks to determine if the applicant20 possesses the requisite character and21 fitness to carry a concealed weapon. 1 Florida for a non-resident license to2 carry a concealed firearm. 18 This Administration is19 committed to ending this absurd provision20 of the law. This Administration is also21 committed to restoring sanity and reason22 to our gun laws. 1 We are all aware of the danger,2 pain and suffering inflicted upon our3 city due to the proliferation of, and4 easy access to, firearms. We have been5 advised by the Law Department, however,6 that this bill, in its present form,7 would almost certainly be deemed8 preempted by state law. 15 Accordingly, the Administration would16 like to propose an amendment to the bill17 that we believe accomplishes the basic18 substantive goals of the bill and also19 would allow the bill to be defended20 against legal challenge. 1 would allow only either residents of the2 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania possessing3 valid Pennsylvania permits or residents4 of other states who are legally licensed5 to carry a concealed weapon in their6 state and whose state has reciprocal7 carry agreements with Pennsylvania to8 carry a concealed firearm in the City of9 Philadelphia. 15 The amendment further provides16 that if this limitation is deemed too17 restrictive under Pennsylvania law, then18 only Pennsylvanians licensed in states19 with firearm laws similar to those of20 Pennsylvania and which states provide a21 reciprocal privilege for Pennsylvania22 licensees can carry a concealed weapon in23 Philadelphia. 1 General has determined in accordance with2 Pennsylvania firearms laws to satisfy3 those requirements. 5 These restrictions we believe6 would be in keeping with the true intent7 of the Pennsylvania law and would end the8 absurd situation of allowing9 Pennsylvanians to carry concealed10 firearms lawfully with a permit issued by11 the State of Florida. 23

Thank24 you. Thank you for your testimony. I25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 have a couple questions.2 So basically what we're saying3 is someone that does not have a license4 to carry in Pennsylvania to go and obtain5 a license from Florida, that that Florida6 license in Pennsylvania would be null and7 void?8 DEPUTY

That's9 correct.10

You will11 not be able to use it?12 DEPUTY

That's13 correct.14

Okay.15 What about a person that's traveling from16 out of state that has a license in that17 particular state and they come to18 Philadelphia?19 DEPUTY

The20 Pennsylvania laws in the 6100 series of21 the Crimes Code allow for that kind of22 passage through, and as long as you have23 a valid license in that particular home24 state, you are permitted, with notice to25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 the police that you're coming through or2 notice that you're here, to actually3 continue that. But the difference is is4 that you're passing through. You're not5 setting up shop. You're not living here6 for an extended period of time. You're7 only going through. And so that's really8 not applicable or -- we would not be9 affecting that particular aspect of10 carrying a gun for temporary purposes.11

And if12 you have not ever applied for a license13 in Pennsylvania and you go and get this14 license from Florida -- and what other15 states is it besides Florida where you16 can get this license?17 DEPUTY

There18 are -- I believe that the reciprocal19 states on the Attorney General's website,20 there are seven states that people21 have -- that he has approved as having22 reciprocal arrangements with23 Pennsylvania. That is Colorado, Idaho,24 Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 and Utah. Those are the ones that are2 referenced in the amended bill, because3 we have reciprocal arrangements with4 those states and if a person has a5 license in those states, they've already6 passed the minimum test. All others are7 not recognized because we do not have8 reciprocity with any other states.9

What10 about a Pennsylvania license, is that11 good in, say, New Jersey, New York, some12 of the local -- some of our nearby13 states?14 DEPUTY

They're15 not, because we do not have reciprocity16 with those states. The answer to that17 question is no.18

Okay.19 Councilman Rizzo.20

Deputy21 Mayor, let's make sure we get it really22 clear here, at least I need it clear.23 Are you telling me that Colorado, Idaho,24 Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 and Utah are the only states that the2 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania recognizes3 in a reciprocal agreement?4 DEPUTY

That's5 correct.6

What would7 stop Florida from getting their place in8 order and what would stop these other9 states from just getting the reciprocal10 agreement? What are these states doing11 that Florida is not doing?12 DEPUTY

They13 have either similar or laws that the14 Attorney General in his or her capacity15 has deemed to be sufficient to protect16 the rights of Pennsylvanians. So if the17 State of Florida, using your example,18 changed some of its internal rules and19 the Attorney General says we are now20 going to execute a reciprocal21 arrangement, then they would be able to22 use those particular matters. You'd be23 able to use that agreement.24

Could you25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 point out for the Committee what the2 differences are? What does Colorado do?3 Are they mirroring our Pennsylvania4 application? Because the Pennsylvania5 application is not a big deal anymore.6 An average person can walk in and get a7 permit to carry a gun, from what I8 understand. If they haven't been9 arrested, they're pretty much going to10 get a permit. Am I correct? It's pretty11 loose here now.12 DEPUTY

Well, I13 think that I would agree with you that14 the minimum standards to get a license in15 Pennsylvania is rather minimum. I would16 also agree that there are different17 requirements that different states have18 by way of procedure and to apply for the19 matters. In the State of Florida, for20 example, you know that it is covered by21 the Agriculture Department, and when you22 go there, you actually apply through mail23 order and you get a permit through the24 Agriculture Department of the State of25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Florida. That's not done here in the2 State of Pennsylvania. Your procedures3 are quite different. You have to go to4 what we know either the location, the5 Sheriff or the Police Commissioner, you6 have to go through a series of background7 checks. Those are the kinds of things8 that Colorado, Indiana, et cetera, they9 do the same things that we do. The other10 states in the union don't do that.11 I would be able to get back to12 the Chair with all of the differences13 that these places have, but they don't14 have the same agreements in place. They15 don't have the same procedures in place,16 and that's why the state Attorney General17 has not recognized that as being a18 reciprocity state.19

Do we know20 that the state Attorney General -- and21 this will be my last question in this22 go-around. Do we know that the state23 Attorney General manages these reciprocal24 agreements? Do we know that Colorado and25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 the rest that I mentioned haven't relaxed2 their rules and we're assuming that they3 are the same as years ago? I mean,4 how do we know that these states that we5 think we have a reciprocal agreement6 really have a solid program that --7 DEPUTY

That's8 the purview of the Attorney General.9 It's actually found in Pennsylvania10 Control -- Criminal statutes, Section 18,11 Section 6109, and it's actually a12 requirement on the state Attorney General13 yearly to take a look at each of these14 states, take a look at what procedures15 they have in place and to offer16 reciprocity in Pennsylvania if they17 change certain things in their matter, in18 their laws.19 It is incumbent on the state20 Attorney General to follow the laws as21 they are applied. This is a state law,22 and I would assume that the Attorney23 General, being the highest state official24 and state law enforcement official, would25 16 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 follow the law.2

That's what3 I wanted to know. In the next go-around4 I'd like to prepare -- I'd like you to5 describe the process in Philadelphia to6 get a permit, because earlier I said,7 from what I understand, it's really been8 relaxed. So I'd like to know a person9 comes in and the process to get a permit,10 but on my next go-around.11 Thanks, Madam Chair.12 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:13 Councilman Curtis Jones.14

Thank you,15 Madam Chair. It's kind of ironic that16 this Committee is going to review two17 different issues today. One of them is18 obviously the one before us by way of19 reciprocity in firearms and then the20 other one is how to get a better handle21 on community interaction with the police22 force, and what is a striking23 contradiction is that the last thing --24 although I recognize everyone's right to25 17 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 bear arms and things of that nature. In2 Philadelphia, we have reached an alarming3 statistic, particularly in the African4 American community -- and I saw this, I5 checked it. I don't get all my6 information from Google, but every now7 and then, it is a good source -- that8 African American men have committed9 homicide one on the other. The statistic10 now out-passes, surpasses, all of the11 lynchings that the Klu Klux Klan did12 since its inception, and for us to be13 talking about seriously being a little14 more lax about how firearms get into our15 community is just -- it just flies in the16 face of all rationale as to the trends of17 what's going on in our community. So we18 should not be looking for more reasons to19 bring guns in. We should be looking for20 more reasons to keep them out, and that's21 my point.22 Thank you, Madam Chair.23

Thank24 you, Councilman Jones.25 18 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I just want to make note that2 in attendance is also Councilman Darrell3 Clarke, and we also have Councilwoman4 Maria Sanchez in the Chambers.5 I have a question. Currently,6 what is the policy if you stop someone7 who has a weapon and the license is from8 Florida?9 DEPUTY

It is a10 valid -- right now the law is that he has11 a valid, he or she, has a valid permit.12

And they13 can maintain their license, they can keep14 their -- I mean, they can keep their15 weapon?16 DEPUTY

I will17 defer to anyone that -- I mean, obviously18 I have the entire command staff behind19 me.20

We see.21 DEPUTY

But it22 is a valid permit. I think what the23 Councilman's bill is trying to do is to24 put a little bit of teeth into the fact25 19 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that we should be able to investigate. I2 know that we take their names. I know3 that we take their addresses. I know we4 try and figure out exactly what they're5 doing and how they're doing it, because6 if they run a regular Pennsylvania -- if7 they run against the -- there's a check,8 a computer check. It will not come up9 with a valid Pennsylvania license, but if10 they have the Florida permit, we'll take11 the information, but it is a valid permit12 to carry. And we're trying to get a13 little bit of control over this14 particular aspect of this loophole. I15 think that's what the Councilman's bill16 is trying to do, and we wholeheartedly17 support these kinds of efforts.18

Well, I19 think we all agree that there are just20 too many weapons on the street.21 DEPUTY

Amen.22

And we23 can do -- we want to be able to do24 whatever we can, and that's why we put25 20 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 gun laws in place.2 Thank you.3 Councilman Rizzo.4

Mayor5 Gillison, I'm a little confused. The6 seven states that are listed here that7 have reciprocal agreements with PA with8 the same criteria, could you tell me how9 many states -- you just said that you10 could come here and carry a permit.11 That's what we're talking about. But how12 many states do have reciprocal agreements13 that don't comply with Pennsylvania's gun14 carry law?15 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:16 Councilman, I will actually verify this,17 but from what I am aware, I believe that18 Florida is the only one, but I will19 verify that and get back to the Chair.20 But I agree that the one that this would21 be aimed at is closing that loop now.22 (Witness approached witness23 table.)24

But my point25 21 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 is, are there other -- and you just said2 you'd get back to us, but does anyone in3 the room know how many states we have4 reciprocal -- a police officer stops5 somebody from Boston. Do we have a6 reciprocal agreement with them? I don't7 know.8 DEPUTY

I will9 have to get back to you.10 I've just been told that there11 are 17 other states that are being12 investigated to see whether or not they13 meet the second criteria, that their laws14 are similar and they are still going15 through the process. But I'll get back16 to you with that number.17

What I'd18 really like to know, how many more like19 Florida are there.20 DEPUTY

I'll21 have to get back to you.22

Okay. Thank23 you.24 DEPUTY

I think25 22 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 it's three. I'm being told it's three.2 I've been told that there's three, but3 I'll actually get back to you with the4 exact name of the states.5

Thank you.6

So if7 someone is stopped and their weapon is8 taken by the police, what happens?9 Because that has happened. You know10 that.11 DEPUTY

If a12 weapon or any time a property is seized,13 there has to be -- there is a procedure14 to get the property back, obviously.15 It's called a return of property hearing.16 You can actually -- the person can17 actually say that I disagree with the18 action of the police officer. The Police19 Department will issue a property receipt.20 That person can go to court, put their21 case on and say that I have a valid22 permit, this was seized illegally, and23 let a judge decide whether or not they24 should get the weapon back. That's the25 23 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 way that it works in all kinds of2 situations, and that would be no3 different in that circumstance.4

I asked5 you that question because I wanted to put6 the answer on the record, because that7 has happened. I mean, I have that8 constituent that keeps showing up in the9 Daily News regarding his weapons. And10 part of what we do here is to educate11 people.12 DEPUTY

Any13 time a citizen believes that property has14 been seized illegally or even if they15 have a problem, they say that they don't16 believe that it should have been subject17 of the confiscation, they have a right to18 go to court. And they can file to go to19 court, and the judge, which is the20 judge's role, is to stand in between and21 make a decision whether or not the22 seizure was legal or the seizure was23 correct. That happens every day. I24 mean, there are return of property25 24 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 matters in Motions Court and the Courts2 of Common Pleas and the courts of civil3 matters every day in this city.4

Thank5 you.6 Councilman Clarke.7

Thank you,8 Madam Chair.9 Good morning.10 DEPUTY

Good11 morning.12

Real13 briefly, first I want to thank you and14 members of the Law Department for coming15 up with some amendments that would make16 this more defensible. It will obviously17 end up in court, such as the last bills.18 I have to tell you, personally I would19 have rather gone for the more aggressive20 version, because, frankly speaking, I21 don't understand -- and I'm sure that22 most of you all agree -- why a person,23 regardless of any reciprocal agreements,24 should be able to carry a gun in the25 25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 streets of the City of Philadelphia2 unless they pass the criteria established3 by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I4 mean, I just don't understand that, how5 you can come here, you can walk around6 the streets with a gun and you've never7 gone through a background check in8 Pennsylvania. That's just like amazing9 to me, but there's the Pennsylvania law10 and then there's Darrell Clarke's law and11 then there's reality.12 I want to say, though, I thank13 you for what it is you're attempting to14 do. I think that based on the amendments15 that you've provided, it should be16 extremely defensible, because we do look17 at comparable criteria as it relates to18 the reciprocal agreements through some of19 the states. This whole Florida notion,20 how you can online get a permit to carry,21 is quite bizarre. I don't know how22 anyone should suggest that somehow that's23 defensible from that perspective, that24 people should be able to do that. And,25 26 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 unfortunately, we've already had a couple2 of instances where an individual did in3 fact do that and ended up doing the4 commission of an assault.5 So I just want to say for the6 record I want to thank you all. I look7 forward to being with you in court again.8 And actually as we move down the process9 on the pending legislation that we have10 had, I believe we're in Commonwealth11 Court now, we've passed Commonwealth12 Court and we're waiting a Supreme Court13 challenge?14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The15 Supreme Court declined to hear the --16

They've17 declined to hear it because of the18 standing issue. And having conversations19 with the District Attorney, I believe20 that -- and I shouldn't put words in his21 mouth, but I'm going to do it. I believe22 that he says he's prepared on at least23 one, possibly two of those to possibly24 proceed with an actual arrest and a25 27 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 possible prosecution that will get us2 into court as a defendant so we can get a3 handle on this once and for all,4 particularly on the lost or stolen guns,5 which is another bill that I think is one6 of the most reasonable approaches that7 we've attempted to do.8 So I just want to for the9 record thank you all for your support and10 look forward to helping you all put your11 briefs together and we go to court.12 DEPUTY

Thank13 you very much, Councilman, and thank you14 for your leadership on this matter. It15 is much appreciated.16 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:17 Councilman Rizzo.18

Thank you.19 I want to come back, Deputy20 Mayor Gillison, to understand better.21 We're critical of some of the other22 states that maybe is loose as can be, but23 I know that the standards in Pennsylvania24 have deteriorated in the last few years25 28 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 on getting a gun. Could you tell me,2 whoever is going to speak on it, describe3 the process of a person applying for the4 first time for a carry.5 DEPUTY

I'll be6 glad to provide that, and I know that the7 person that's best situated to answer8 that would be Lieutenant Healy, who is9 present with me sitting here at the10 table.11 LIEUTENANT HEALY: For the12 record, Lieutenant Healy from the Police13 Commissioner's Office.14 The process for obtaining a15 firearm's permit in Pennsylvania, quite16 frankly -- the standards haven't17 deteriorated. Actually, they're slightly18 higher than other states -- is actually19 positive for Pennsylvania. The issues,20 as you would come in with an application,21 the state-filled application with your22 references, it would be processed through23 our Gun Permits Unit. They would do the24 background investigation, which consists25 29 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 of the Pennsylvania Instant Check System,2 which checks you for a criminal history3 record as well as involuntary mental4 commitments and stuff like that that5 would preclude you under federal and6 state law. In addition to Pennsylvania,7 then, we would also look to the character8 and reputation of the individual to9 determine whether or not they're a hazard10 to the community. That's a standard11 which other states or other jurisdictions12 don't actually apply. We do in13 Pennsylvania. That's why we can14 disapprove people in Pennsylvania and15 then they can go, turn around to Florida16 and apply.17 Florida standard pretty much is18 they just use the Pick Check. We use an19 additional standard, a step higher than a20 Pick Check. That's why they're qualified21 in Florida, whereas we would disapprove22 them in this state.23 What's also important is, we24 only just -- we don't just disapprove25 30 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 individuals. We also revoke people. We2 revoke licenses based on good cause.3 Now, what happened is -- and this is4 really the scam that's happening, quite5 frankly -- is to appeal our revocation,6 if the Commissioner revokes your license7 for some act and we determine that it's8 careless, negligent or whatever the case9 may be, it costs probably about $1,500 to10 appeal to the Common Pleas Court for a11 decision, whether or not that decision12 was right or wrong. It's cheaper for13 them to now just apply in Florida and get14 a permit irrespective of that revocation.15 Therefore, they've circumvented the whole16 appellate process, the whole17 Commissioner's discretion process.18 The issue that Florida presents19 the problem for is this, quite honestly,20 Florida standards are legitimate21 standards. They actually have higher22 safety standards than we have. You have23 to actually prove that you have a safety24 class, which you don't in Pennsylvania,25 31 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 but in Florida, you don't need to be a2 resident. Therein lies the problem. We3 have no problem with reciprocity4 agreements that are substantially similar5 to ours for their own residents. So when6 a resident from another state comes to7 ours, we recognize their license and we8 recognize theirs. The problem is, with9 Florida they're issuing licenses to10 non-residents. We don't do that in11 Pennsylvania. We issue licenses only to12 us or only to Pennsylvania residents.13 There's a very small class of14 licenses that we will issue. If you come15 to us from another state with already16 have a license, we will accept it, and17 we'll allow you to carry in Pennsylvania,18 but what we'll do is, we will give you a19 Pennsylvania license in addition to your20 other state. Florida won't recognize21 those licenses. So ironically enough,22 they want us to recognize their23 out-of-state licenses, but they won't24 recognize ours. Therein lies the25 32 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 disparity between the law. And the fact2 is, our laws are not substantially3 similar; therefore, they should not be4 subject to a reciprocity agreement.5

Lieutenant6 Healy, let me restate what I said7 earlier. Years ago -- been through the8 process many times -- you mentioned about9 the safety portion. When I say that the10 process has gotten less, I can't even --11 LIEUTENANT HEALY: I know12 exactly where you're going.13

We don't go14 to the range anymore. A person can get a15 permit in Philadelphia and not even know16 what end of the gun to hold.17 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Right. That18 resulted from legislation, I believe, in19 1995. Basically Philadelphia had a20 higher standard than the rest of the21 state. The state laws were consistent.22 They had always been the same, but23 Philadelphia had a higher standard. You24 actually had to prove why you needed a25 33 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 gun and you actually had to shoot ten2 rounds at the range.3

So to4 restate my claim, that at one time the5 standards to get a permit to carry in6 Philadelphia were higher than they are7 presently today.8 DEPUTY

That's9 correct.10

I'm not11 comparing with other states. I'm --12 LIEUTENANT HEALY: No, no. I'm13 just making sure. Philadelphia had its14 own separate standards, correct, but the15 state standards were always the way they16 are now. We actually in Philadelphia had17 legislation which made it higher.18

Were we19 forced to adopt the state rule?20 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Yes.21

We were?22 LIEUTENANT HEALY: 1995 the23 regulations that we had for gun permits24 were ruled illegal because they25 34 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 contradicted what the state had.2 DEPUTY

That's3 the whole preemption argument. That's4 where it began.5 LIEUTENANT HEALY: And that's6 when our permits to carry skyrocketed, in7 1995.8

Yeah. And,9 Lieutenant, correct if I'm wrong,10 ironically I think that action actually11 started as a result of a similar action12 where the City of Philadelphia attempted13 to ban assault weapons --14 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Yes.15

-- and16 other issues as it relates to guns,17 weapons availability in the City, and the18 state legislation -- and, unfortunately,19 it was one of our local legislators who20 championed the cause --21 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Yes.22

-- actually23 basically backhanded us and say, You know24 what, you don't like the laws you have25 35 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 currently? They're going to get worse.2 And they basically opened up the3 floodgates in terms of being able to4 allow people to get permits to carry.5 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Well, not6 only did that, as a result of that, there7 was actually a specific provision put8 into the Uniform Firearms Act9 specifically stating that local10 municipalities cannot pass gun11 legislation and gun laws.12

Right. So13 as a result of that.14 LIEUTENANT HEALY: That Senator15 is no longer in Harrisburg.16

Yeah.17 We're aware of that.18 All right. Thank you. Thank19 you.20

Thank you21 very much, Lieutenant Healy.22 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Thank you,23 sir.24

Thank25 36 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you. Thank you.2 Are there any other questions3 from the Committee members of these4 witnesses?5 (No response.)6

Seeing7 none, thank you.8 DEPUTY

Thank9 you.10

Is there11 anyone else here to testify on this bill?12 (No response.)13

Seeing14 none, we will go into the public meeting15 to vote on Bill No. 100722 and then16 return to the public hearing to hear17 testimony on Resolution No. 100731.18 The Chair recognizes Councilman19 Clarke.20

Thank you,21 Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I move for the22 adoption of the amendment to Bill No.23 100722.24 (Duly seconded.)25 37 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

All those2 in favor signify by saying aye.3 (Aye.)4

Opposed?5 (No response.)6

Great.7 Councilman Clarke.8

Thank you,9 Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I make a10 motion that Bill No. 100722, as amended,11 be reported out of Committee with a12 favorable recommendation and a request13 for rules suspension as to allow reading14 at the next session of Council.15 (Duly seconded.)16

All those17 in favor?18 (Aye.)19

Opposed?20 (No response.)21

This bill22 has been properly moved and seconded and23 will be reported out of this Committee24 with a favorable recommendation and,25 38 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 further, that the rules of Council be2 suspended so as to permit first reading3 at our next session.4 Thank you.5

Thank you.6

We will7 now return to the public hearing to hear8 testimony on Resolution No. 100731.9 Will the Clerk please read the10 title of this resolution.11

Resolution 100731,12 resolution authorizing City Council's13 Committee on Public Safety to hold a14 public hearing to consider and evaluate15 the issues surfacing around the16 Philadelphia Police Department and the17 conduct of its officers.18

Okay.19 Thank you.20 (Witnesses approached witness21 table.)22

The23 purpose of this hearing is to look at24 proactive measures that will ensure25 39 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 cooperation among the community, our2 Police Department and government3 agencies.4 This is not a forum for bashing5 or hate. It is rather a place to6 understand what is going on, what we7 should or should not do, and hopefully8 learn ways to ensure that officers who do9 not respect the authority entrusted in10 them are reprimanded or removed, if11 necessary.12 It is true that what we are13 seeing and hearing regarding police14 corruption or abuse is very damaging to15 the credibility of the Police Department,16 but we must not allow this to destroy the17 bridge between the Philadelphia Police18 and the community.19 There are about 6,576 police20 officers. Like any profession, there are21 people who make bad decisions, be it22 erroneous or on purpose. Our mission23 here is to minimize, if not eradicate,24 those blatant wrongdoings or errors in25 40 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 decisions.2 This hearing will discuss the3 rights and responsibilities of the police4 and individuals who come in contact with.5 It is important to understand that people6 are not taught what they should or should7 not do when dealing with the police, and8 I hope that this hearing will clarify9 that.10 The Deputy Mayor of Public11 Safety, the Police Commissioner, the12 Police Advisory Commission, just to name13 a few, will be given an opportunity to14 explain how police misconduct is15 addressed, the importance of community16 involvement and the different methods for17 filing a grievance. This will also18 explain that although it seems misconduct19 is on the rise, it is not.20 Practical measures must be21 taken immediately to ensure that everyone22 works together to help put an end to the23 growth of these problems and demonstrate24 a real response to the public's concerns.25 41 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I must emphasize that the only2 way to reprimand or remove officers who3 act inappropriately is with the help from4 the community.5 It was not long ago when the6 District Attorney was urging the public7 to avoid playing into the "Don't Snitch"8 campaign, because killers were walking9 the streets out of reach from the10 criminal system. That is similar for11 police misconduct. Unless it is reported12 and those involved come forward and13 following the complaint to the end,14 nothing can be done to reprimand or15 remove.16 Please understand that an17 anonymous complaint can only go so far.18 Both good and bad police officers have19 rights and due process that must be20 followed.21 I hope that after this hearing,22 our citizens will know what their rights23 are, what is proper behavior and, most of24 all, if they're involved in misconduct,25 42 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 how to report and follow through so that2 justice prevails.3 I want to emphasize that this4 is not a forum for bashing the Police5 Department. It is important to hear6 everyone's issues and hopefully to hear7 ideas for improvement and ways that we8 can make the Police Department better and9 ways to make our citizens and visitors10 feel both safe and comfortable.11 I want to emphasize that12 neither the Police Commissioner nor the13 Deputy Mayor for Public Safety can14 comment on current investigations. So15 this hearing will not be the venue to16 discuss current matters under17 investigation.18 Everyone will be given an19 opportunity to speak. So I expect that20 when a witness is speaking, everyone will21 be respectful and wait for their turn to22 speak.23 This is an important issue, and24 there are many people here who wish to25 43 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 testify. So we have to set a time limit,2 and that time limit is three minutes per3 individual testifying.4 Thank you. Councilman Jones,5 do you want --6

Thank you.7 First of all, Madam Chair, I want to8 thank you for calling forth this9 resolution on this urgent matter and10 paying attention to an issue that has11 come before this body.12 One of the things as a freshman13 Councilperson I had to come to grips with14 is that this body is not the law.15 Although we get an opportunity to author16 resolutions that become ordinances from17 time to time, we are not the law.18 I also know that the Police19 Department is not the law, but it is20 their job to enforce it, and it is a21 difficult day-to-day job.22 Judges aren't the law. All23 they do is interpret it. And what they24 interpret is the will of the people,25 44 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 birthed out of the Constitution, and all2 the law simply is is a set of rules and3 guides that govern us both, allowing us4 to co-exist, work, live and play5 collectively, peacefully.6 And that's what we want to look7 at today. We want to look at the rules,8 and we want to make sure, as the9 Chairperson said, that everyone10 understands those rules and that we all11 are governed by the same set of12 guidelines in our day-to-day life.13 So, again, I want to thank the14 Chairperson for this hearing, and we have15 an ambitious schedule and hopefully we'll16 get through it today.17 Thank you, Madam Chair.18

Thank19 you.20 Are there any other comments21 from Councilmembers?22 (No response.)23

With24 that, will the Clerk please read the25 45 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 first panel.2

Deputy Mayor3 Everett Gillison and Police Commissioner4 Charles Ramsey.5 (Witnesses approached witness6 table.)7 DEPUTY

Thank8 you very much. Good morning,9 Councilwoman Miller and members of the10 Public Safety Committee. My name is11 Everett Gillison. I am the Deputy Mayor12 for Public Safety. Seated with me is13 Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey and14 Deputy Commissioner Richard Ross. Thank15 you for the opportunity to appear before16 you today on behalf of the Nutter17 Administration to offer testimony18 concerning Resolution No. 1 Public safety is of paramount2 concern to this Administration. The3 Mayor has tasked the Police Commissioner4 with reducing crime in the City. 8 These results could not be achieved9 without the hard work and the dedication10 of the men and women of our Police11 Department. 18 The positive results of reducing crime19 are diminished if the public does not20 have faith in the integrity of its police21 officers. Good, honest, law-abiding22 people should not fear their police23 officers. 2 After all, who are the men and women of3 our Police Department? 6 We will absolutely not tolerate the7 misconduct of a few that threatens the8 good work of the vast majority of our9 police officers. This Administration10 will continue to identify, investigate11 and remove the corrupt minority from the12 ranks of the Philadelphia Police13 Department. And as you will hear from14 Commissioner Ramsey, we have implemented15 several reforms designed not only to16 identify and remove corrupt officers, but17 also to enhance the culture of integrity18 and professionalism throughout the entire19 Department. "3 Since that time, the Department has acted4 on steps laid out in that plan and has5 continued to add to their efforts. I6 have supported the Commissioner's efforts7 to increase the Department's front-line8 supervisory ranks since sufficient9 supervision is necessary to ensure10 accountability. The Department has11 promoted 70 sergeants and 30 lieutenants12 within the last year. Additionally, the13 Department has increased the number of14 investigators in the Internal Affairs15 Division. 18 I have supported the19 Commissioner's efforts to increase the20 professional caliber of recruits entering21 the Police Academy. 1 experience. 5 Our public needs to be aware6 that the fact that police work, while an7 honorable service to the community, is a8 dangerous occupation. Police officers9 are oftentimes called upon to place10 themselves in harm's way answering11 emergency calls. Even the most casual12 encounters can erupt into violence in an13 instant. The simple truth is that14 despite their training, equipment and15 modern communications technology,16 oftentimes police officers don't know17 what situation they will be walking into18 or who they will be confronting. 1 members of the public. Likewise, members2 of the public, as our partners in keeping3 the City safe, have certain4 responsibilities when interacting with5 police officers. Members of the public6 who are approached by police officers7 should speak with the officer in a8 courteous and polite manner. They should9 not escalate an already tense situation10 by becoming angry, loud and11 argumentative. 17 Not to be overly simplistic,18 but many of these unfortunate encounters19 can be avoided if civilians and officers20 remember the golden rule: Treat others21 as you would like to be treated. It is22 important that everyone be mindful of23 these rules. 1 Youth Commission in conducting training2 for our young people on their3 responsibilities when interacting with4 police officers. The first in what is5 hoped to be a series of training sessions6 will take place on Wednesday, December7 15th at the Global Leadership Academy,8 5151 Warren Street. 19

Thank20 you, Mr. 1 members of City Council, the2 Administration and the public who are in3 attendance today. 8 This has been a very9 challenging time for the Philadelphia10 Police Department. Nothing can tarnish11 the reputation, the image and the morale12 of the Department so quickly as police13 misconduct and corruption. There are14 more than 6,500 sworn members of this15 Department, making it the fourth largest16 in the United States. 3 In the first week of August4 this year, we released a plan that was5 systemic in scope and involved all6 aspects of prevention, training,7 education, intervention and8 investigation. Deputy Commissioner9 Patricia Giorgio-Fox has been charged10 with implementing many of these reforms11 as she spearheads our Office of12 Organizational Accountability. 16 As outlined in our report, we17 have added 38 people to the Office of18 Professional Responsibility, in which the19 Internal Affairs Bureau is housed. They20 are currently at full staffing, and it's21 my expectation that they will deliver the22 results of investigations in a more23 timely manner. 1 Attorney's Office in a joint task force2 whose mission specifically is to3 investigate police misconduct and4 corruption. 9 We have created several new10 reporting mechanisms to increase the11 access and the ease with which people may12 report misconduct. That includes a13 hotline number linked directly to the14 Commissioner's Office, 215-686-3009, and15 an internal form for PPD personnel who16 wish to report misconduct. 21 It is our hope that complainants who feel22 uncomfortable reporting in person will23 use this application. 1 for those who wish to provide feedback or2 report misconduct without being contacted3 by the Department. 7 The Department has partnered8 with the NAACP in holding six police9 division-wide community meetings10 specifically to address the issue of11 police misconduct, its impact on the12 community and how to file a complaint13 against police. Members of the public14 can speak to personnel from the Internal15 Affairs Bureau and appointees from the16 Police Advisory Commission. 2 I have personally had many3 meetings with minority community groups4 and neighborhood organizations so that I5 could respond to their questions and keep6 them apprised of the Department's7 efforts. This past October we also held8 police and community forums in each9 police district in which members of the10 public shared their concerns, ranging11 from crime and disorder to police12 misconduct. We had personnel from13 Internal Affairs, the police clergy and14 the Police Advisory Commission available15 at every meeting. 7 We have also requested that8 adjustments to our recruitment hiring9 standards be approved by the Civil10 Service Commission so that we may attract11 a higher caliber of applicant. 0. 1 can provide in-depth training and2 education. 7 Our overall goal is to prevent criminal8 misconduct from occurring in the first9 place. 11 The Department has developed an12 ethics training program for all of our13 members in which they role play and14 cultivate the two major components of15 good judgment, critical thinking and16 self-awareness. 1 training materials and communications to2 our personnel on a continual basis. This3 is not a one-time communications4 campaign. 8 In conclusion, this is only the9 first step as we move toward integrating10 training, education and a values-driven11 culture into every facet of the12 Department. I personally have been and13 will be involved in addressing all sworn14 members throughout the upcoming year. 22 The message is simple and23 powerful: Integrity starts with you. 2 Their silence slowly but deliberately3 erodes the legitimacy of this Police4 Department. I asked the most recent5 recruit class that graduated, What kind6 of legacy do you want to leave in this7 Department? What would you like people8 to say about you when you retire?

11 It doesn't matter how many12 years a member is in this Department,13 whether two or 32. Police officers build14 their reputation one decision at a time,15 and they have the power to choose how16 they will be remembered. 21 Times of difficulty can often22 signify a much deeper call to action. 1 upholding the constitutional rights for2 all people. I have always felt that the3 metaphor of a police being a "thin blue4 line" is inadequate and that true5 community policing does not define police6 officers as a line, thin, blue or7 otherwise. We're not now, nor should we8 ever be, something that divides and9 separates our communities. Rather, I'd10 like to think of the police as a thread,11 one that is woven throughout the12 communities we serve. This is how we13 will bridge the relationship between the14 police and community that has been15 damaged. 9

Okay.10 I'm going to right now call on Councilman11 Jones.12

First of13 all, thank you for your testimony and14 thank you for being here today. Early on15 in this process when this issue started16 to perk up and get the attention of City17 Council, we reached out to other18 municipalities. You'll hear from some of19 them today. We reached out to a City20 Council person, Ms. Foster, in New York,21 who you know about, who had similar22 issues with aggressive policing, stop and23 frisk. 4 The idea of reaching out to5 them was some lessons learned, things we6 could take from it, in an effort to try7 to avoid some of the things they went8 through, and one of the things that they9 mentioned was the willingness of an10 administration to come and face the music11 and talk about it openly as opposed to12 saying it doesn't exist or not13 acknowledging that there may indeed be a14 problem. 17 And to that end, in your18 testimony you covered some of the things19 that if we were to use a before and after20 scenario, that before the incident and21 before this resolution was introduced,22 what are some of the different changes,23 maybe lessons learned, that you're24 implementing, in a succinct manner? 4 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well,5 training and education, we're placing a6 lot of emphasis on developing the kind of7 skills necessary to de-escalate8 situations, how to talk to people9 appropriately. You know, when we listen10 to a lot of our complaints, it's not so11 much the stop that was made. 15 We have to do a better job at16 training and reinforcing the fact that a17 situation may start off a little rocky,18 because it could be any kind of call. It19 could be a person with a gun, it could be20 whatever. 4 So a lot of the training, when5 we talk about ethics training and when we6 talk about the in-service that's going on7 now and it being scenario-driven, just8 like we go through training now for in9 firearms instruction, for an example, and10 we use the range -- they call it a FATS11 machine or a Range 2000. They're two12 different models. But it's a shoot/don't13 shoot scenario. I want the same kind of14 scenarios where you have to de-escalate15 verbally. 17 It's about talking to people, so putting18 officers in situations where they have to19 use their heads, they have to think, they20 have to take a deep breath and step back21 in order to de-escalate a situation. 1 We also have increased the2 number of personnel in Internal Affairs3 so we can be far more proactive. We can4 complete investigations in a more timely5 fashion. We're making complaint forms6 far more accessible to people other than7 just going into the same station, which8 obviously creates an issue for a lot of9 people. 12 But I want to be very13 aggressive in providing the training we14 need in order to prevent these things15 from happening to begin with. The goal16 isn't to dismiss people. The goal isn't17 to punish people. 19

Let me just20 take a step back and say, before what21 were the qualifications of a police22 officer for acceptance into the Academy?23 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: High24 school or GED, 19 years of age.25 67 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

And now they2 are?3 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I4 don't think it's been approved officially5 yet by the Civil Service Commission, but6 we're asking that the age be raised to 217 years of age, that there be three years8 of driving experience. And that may seem9 kind of strange to throw that in there,10 but we actually because some of the11 people coming on the job are so young,12 they've never driven a car before, and13 then you give them a Crown Vic and tell14 them to go on a Code assignment.15 Obviously bad things can happen from that16 combination.17 Sixty semester hours of college18 or an Associate's Degree. Again, New19 York City, Chicago, my old department,20 Washington, DC, there are many, many21 departments in this country that have22 gone to two- or four-year requirements.23 Again, it shows a level of maturity. It24 also -- because of the fact that you've25 68 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 had to complete some college, your2 ability to read, to write, to comprehend,3 all those things we have a different4 comfort level.5 We had abandoned the polygraph6 at one point in time. I'm seeking to7 bring that back. I think that's part of8 background that we should not ignore.9 But we need to do more thorough10 background checks than we do right now,11 and a lot of that has to do with dealing12 with the character of the individual,13 having people go out and talk to14 neighbors, talk to teachers, talk to15 people that they've interacted with to16 find out the kind of person it is that17 we're bringing on board and will have18 with us for the next 20, 30 years.19

In your20 training process, to what degree do we21 have geographic knowledge of22 neighborhoods? Meaning there's a23 difference in psychology and location of24 Washington Avenue and Washington Lane.25 69 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 To what degree does an officer have to2 know the neighborhood that they serve?3 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well,4 right now what we're attempting to do --5 let me go back. Previously when you6 finish the Academy, you get an7 assignment, you show up and you're there.8 And in many instances, even though you're9 a Philadelphia resident, because this is10 such a large city, you can grow up in one11 part of the City and know virtually12 nothing about another part of the City,13 yet that's where you're assigned. So you14 don't know streets, you don't know the15 neighborhoods, you don't necessarily16 understand the culture of the people that17 you're interacting with.18 One of the things that we've19 started doing with the recruits that come20 out, one, they need an orientation. So21 if they go to a district, they can meet22 with community, they can meet with people23 that have been there for a while to kind24 of talk about some of those issues. We25 70 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 also start them off on foot patrol, where2 we've put them out on beats and get to3 know in an up-close-and-personal way4 people in that neighborhood. And all the5 recruits that come out now, they start on6 foot patrol. They do not get in a car.7

Now, this8 is --9 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Now.10 This is currently now. In fact, the11 last, what, three classes, four classes12 we've had, it's the way we've started13 them out.14 I've been around for a while.15 I'm what some people consider to be old16 school in a lot of ways, but I'm a17 proponent of foot patrol and getting to18 know neighborhoods. I think you have to.19 You can't have community policing without20 it.21 We've also reorganized our22 department into police service areas23 where we have a lieutenant in charge with24 sergeants and officers. The goal there25 71 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 is to have the same officers assigned to2 the same area on a daily basis, again, to3 get familiar with the community.4 You're never going to have a5 situation where the officers are all from6 the area that they're patrolling. That's7 just not going to happen. But there's no8 reason why people cannot become familiar9 with that area and cannot provide quality10 service.11

If I may,12 I'm going to shift a little bit. I just13 wanted to get those things on the record.14 Can you define -- and this is15 for the entire panel -- what is stop and16 frisk?17 DEPUTY

Stop18 and frisk is a police tactic that was19 started out of Terry versus Ohio back in20 1968. It actually predates that, because21 Terry was the culmination and actually22 gave a legal justification to the police.23 It basically says that when a police24 officer believes that there is criminal25 72 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 activity afoot, he can -- and based on2 reasonable suspicion, he can stop and3 actually frisk for his own protection,4 his or her protection, to make sure the5 person is not armed and/or dangerous.6

And that is7 a pre-existing policy and/or procedure8 that is in writing somewhere?9 DEPUTY

It's10 not a policy. It is a legal way of11 talking about how an encounter, something12 that is -- a police officer can walk up13 to somebody and encounter them. I can --14 a question or anything else. A person15 does not lose their right of being a16 human being because they're a police17 officer. As a matter of fact, they18 become a little bit more sensitive to19 what's going on.20 You walk up to a person, that's21 an encounter. But if you decide after22 encounter -- if the police officer, based23 on training or based on some particular24 feeling that they have, that the25 73 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 environment seems to indicate that the2 individual is acting in a particular3 manner, they are trained, if they are4 being furtive with their hands, if5 they're jittery, if there's something6 going on that the officer believes is7 placing his or her safety at risk or if8 they believe that a crime is being9 committed, they can stop the person, they10 can frisk them for the officer's11 protection and be able to look for and12 obviously look for weapons. And that is13 the pat down. So that is a frisk. A14 frisk is a pat down.15 Encounters are not stop and16 frisk. Encounters are encounters. A17 police officer can walk up, talk to you,18 say hello, question you, do whatever.19 That is an encounter. That is not a stop20 and frisk. Those stop and frisk matters21 really are not as -- they don't happen as22 much as people kind of think they do.23 There are many encounters, and we have24 actually upped the encounters between25 74 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 police officers and the citizenry, but2 the stop and frisk aspect or does the3 officer have reasonable suspicion to4 believe a crime is occurring or that5 there is a weapon that challenges their6 own safety, those encounters, those7 matters are things that an officer does8 with their training.9

Let's use10 the term "encounter," and I would imagine11 encounter happens before stop and frisk?12 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:13 Correct.14

Is there15 written guidelines by which an encounter16 escalates to something else, in writing?17 And I specifically -- this is not one of18 those -- I'm not trying to do this as a19 court of law and entrap anyone. I just20 want to understand and I just want the21 public to understand. Is there a22 written -- is this someplace in some code23 where we know, or in some training24 manual, where we know that here are the25 75 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 rules of engagement, I see a young person2 on the street corner and here's how I3 have to approach them, and then here are4 the series of escalating factors that go5 to stop and frisk? Is that written6 anywhere?7 DEPUTY

That's8 part of training.9 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: It is10 part of training, and when officers come11 on the job and also we reemphasize12 through in-service training and roll call13 training what would constitute the14 reasonable suspicion that would be needed15 in order for an officer to conduct a16 stop. Now, we make out a form called a17 48-A whenever we do have a stop of an18 individual. And so we do keep track of19 that sort of thing. And the majority of20 the stops we make do not end in a frisk.21 So I'm glad you raised that22 issue, because people think every time23 you stop a person it results in a frisk.24 It doesn't.25 76 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 However, an officer does have a2 right to stop and, during the process of3 stopping and questioning a person with4 reasonable suspicion of criminal5 activity, to conduct a frisk, pat down6 for weapons only to make sure they're7 protected, to make sure that they're safe8 and secure.9 We also have a document called10 Legally Speaking that I started up maybe11 a year ago with the legal staff that I12 have in which we address a variety of13 issues. One of those issues was, of14 course, revisiting stop, question and15 frisk. So that people fully understand16 what it is, and there are even, I think,17 three or four scenarios in the most18 recent publication that outline19 situations in which it would be20 appropriate and in one situation it would21 not be appropriate, so that people,22 again, know and understand.23

I guess24 where I'm going with this -- and, listen,25 77 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I've been on both sides of the equation2 in the sense of having been stopped and3 been glad that an officer came to the4 scene. So I understand both sides of the5 equation in that respect, but what I'm6 getting to is that I don't think that7 there is a clear understanding -- and I8 know you can't type it up and have it so9 specific that I have to check the rule10 book before I proceed, but there needs to11 be a general understanding of what those12 progressive steps are, both on the parts13 of the officers, in my opinion, and also14 the citizenry, and I think to that end,15 you're trying to do some of the role play16 workshops, working with the Youth17 Commission and others to create some type18 of guideline so that people know.19 We had an opportunity to share20 some time, quality time, at some of those21 hearings out in the various districts,22 and one of the things that came up when23 citizens asked officers about what is the24 exact procedure and can you commit it to25 78 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 writing so that people know? And it's2 words like "courtesy" and "respectful"3 and things like that, which I understand,4 but does everyone have a clear common5 understanding definition of that and what6 those progressive steps are that a person7 who may be stopped understands? If I8 cross this line right here, there is a9 distinct probability that I'm going to10 get arrested because I've disrespected or11 violated some city code, and I don't know12 where those lines exist and I don't know13 if they are a question of judgment or a14 question of written procedure, and that's15 kind of where I'm trying to get to with16 this.17 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, let18 me respond in a couple ways. One,19 there's no way you could have any written20 procedures that would cover every21 possible circumstance that an officer22 might encounter on the street. I also23 think it's important to note that it's24 not necessarily a progression that takes25 79 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 place. It depends on the circumstances.2 You can get called to a scene, a man with3 a gun, a description at this corner. You4 pull up, there's a person matching that5 description on that corner. You're going6 to pat them down to make sure that they7 don't shoot you.8 So, I mean -- and as far as9 clarity goes, I don't think there's a10 lack of clarity as far as the police11 officers are concerned, but I grant you12 there's a lack of clarity probably among13 the community in terms of how this whole14 thing works. We spend a lot of time in15 training of police officers, an awful lot16 of time in training, and, again, officers17 have to articulate what that reasonable18 suspicion was. That's the point of the19 48-A. That's the point of some of the20 other documents that are made out. They21 have to be able to articulate why. And22 we do track that. So if there is someone23 who is still clueless out there, I'd like24 to know who they are so we could again25 80 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 bring them up to speed, but I've not seen2 that. I mean, I've been in policing --3 in fact, I actually -- my entry into4 policing was in 1968, and in three5 different departments, I've not run6 across a policeman that did not7 understand what a Terry stop involved.8

Well, with9 all due respect to your professionalism10 and my lack thereof of your job, which I11 could never do, and I acknowledge that12 for the record, I think there may be some13 nebulous nature to that understanding,14 because the number of instances where15 judgment is varying is wide, and one16 person's encounter is another person's I17 spent the night in jail. And if you --18 and I have not, but if you ask people who19 we will hear from, that discretion is20 what may be in question in the whole21 aggressive police posture. If I had a22 good day, it is this. If I'm having a23 bad day, it may be something else, and we24 have to be very clear as to where that25 81 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 line should be. And that is my opinion.2 It is not the rule and guide, but it is3 my opinion that there may be some4 question among some officers about where5 those lines are and where the word6 "courtesy" is. My courtesy is different7 than maybe yours. Use of a curse word is8 discretionary. And I'm saying that all9 of us are human beings, those people who10 suit up in the morning and make roll call11 and those people who get stopped12 sometimes in the process of you13 performing your duties.14 And so I think one of the areas15 we need to look at -- we may disagree a16 little bit -- is what those progressive17 steps are so that they're clear. And I18 can guarantee we agree that the public19 does not know. The public does not know.20 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:21 Councilman, if I could just add one22 thing. There's another way that this is23 always -- and since before 1968, but at24 least since 1964, if someone actually25 82 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 feels that they have been wronged,2 there's always remedies. You have a3 right, you have a remedy. That remedy4 may not be something, but in our country5 we have the right to go to court. If a6 person feels that there is something that7 they have not been treated correctly and8 especially in the criminal law, those9 matters can actually go to court and can10 be adjudicated by a judge and/or a jury.11 Most of these things are challenges and12 they would be a challenge to a judge, who13 would then look at the situation and see14 whether or not it was done correctly.15 So I would always just remind16 all of us that we do have a great place17 that we live in, America, and we can18 actually deal with these things in19 several different ways.20 What this Department has been21 doing, I think, has been to put out and22 to depend on training and to depend on23 making sure that we work together and to24 put community first and community25 83 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 policing, and that's what this2 Administration, that's what this Police3 Commissioner has been emphasizing. And I4 think that where we have breakdowns, we5 still make sure that we follow a set of6 rules and guidelines to investigate, to7 act on those things, to do it in a8 transparent way and to continually9 address it.10 So to your point that we don't11 hide behind it, we haven't. We don't12 hide behind anything.13

I agree with14 that.15 DEPUTY

And we16 go straight out and we -- and this17 Commissioner, with the full support that18 I can give and obviously the Mayor, go19 full out to say where we find things that20 are wrong, we act on it. That's why we21 need the cooperation of everybody. And22 the community policing means something to23 us. It is the fulcrum of how we will be24 able to get trust and to get our city to25 84 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 be the safe city that we want it to be.2 So I would --3

We agree.4 We agree. I applauded you guys in the5 beginning of this for stepping up.6 Let me ask a couple of7 questions. How many complaints have8 there been filed over the last three9 years about the process by which people10 have been stopped? How many complaints?11 DEPUTY

The12 exact number, I would ask you to defer to13 the other members, because obviously I14 have the Police Advisory Commission,15 which will be on another panel. That is16 one avenue that has come forward. The17 Internal Affairs matters are something18 that obviously complaints are subject19 right now of litigation and we can't go20 but so far --21

I don't need22 to know the specifics. I need to know23 the numbers.24 DEPUTY

But I25 85 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 believe that the numbers are rather2 hundreds rather than thousands. And I3 think that it is safe to say that even if4 it was hundreds and it may be the one --5 if you're in that one, it seems that it6 should not have occurred. But I will7 dare say that you're talking about8 hundreds of complaints probably as9 opposed to the thousands and thousands10 that have come forward.11

So should I12 defer the questions as it relates to the13 type and nature of the complaints to the14 Commission?15 DEPUTY

I would16 think that those would come through the17 Police Advisory Commission, are one. I18 don't know whether Internal Affairs has19 another way. I'll defer to the20 Commissioner.21 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I've got22 numbers of complaints, but I can't tie23 them all back into whether or not -- I24 think your question was whether or not we25 86 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 were related to a pedestrian or a vehicle2 stop. Or just in general?3

I'd like to4 know the number of complaints.5 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: In6 general, the number of complaints against7 police as of the 30th of November, 7258 complaints against police.9

Is that this10 year?11 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: And12 another -- yeah, this year. And another13 170 internal investigations.14 Last year we had 697 complaints15 against police and 145 internal16 investigations. But that's a year-end17 total. So I'd have to go back even18 further if you'd like to get more data.19

I don't need20 to do that at this time, but I think it21 would probably be helpful to provide the22 Chair. Since we declared stop and frisk23 a policy, even though I don't know24 where -- since '68 we've kind of25 87 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 ratcheted it up, but I'd like to look at2 the number of the trends, if it has3 increased or decreased over the last four4 years, and then the types of complaints.5 And I guess I can get that from the6 Commission. And disposition of those7 complaints.8 Thank you, Madam Chair.9

Thank10 you. Thank you, Councilman Jones.11 Just along those same lines, I12 actually wanted to know information based13 on the community meetings that you had, I14 believe, in October and what were the15 outcomes, what were the numbers, what's16 the data.17 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: The18 majority of them -- and I can19 certainly -- because I gave a summary of20 each of the meetings to the Deputy Mayor.21 The majority of the districts, the22 complaints were crime related. There23 were some that weren't. The 12th, the24 19th, there were complaints about police25 88 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 conduct and so forth. I can certainly2 get that to you, ma'am.3 We took each one individually4 and we summarized the complaints and the5 issues that came up during that. This6 covered everything from crime to7 misconduct. The majority that came were8 crime related, but we did have some very9 specific around police misconduct.10

Will the11 data include the next steps once12 someone --13 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I14 can do that, ma'am. That's under a15 separate document that we put out about16 the proactive steps we're taking to deal17 with the issues. Now, many of those18 complaints that we did get were already19 under investigation. Some were new we20 took and are now under investigation. It21 may have been completed. I can get you22 that information.23

Okay.24 I'm going to -- I have questions, but I'm25 89 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 going to call on Councilman Clarke.2

Thank you,3 Madam Chair.4 Good morning, Commissioner,5 Deputy.6 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Good7 morning.8

A number of9 the questions that I was going to ask10 have been already covered by my11 colleague, but I just want to make a12 brief statement. 1 African American who lives in North2 Philadelphia, I have occasion to not3 necessarily have on a suit when I'm out4 in the neighborhood. I have this little5 spot I hang out a lot during the course6 of the weekend up around 19th -- 17th and7 Cecil B. Moore. I know some of the guys8 from back in the day and just kind of9 hang out. And you just kind of get a10 sense, if I'm standing there dressed like11 this talking to some of the guys or if12 I'm standing there dressed with normal13 gear on, the first response as it relates14 to a police officer driving by, it's like15 night and day. 1 person's background has been like with2 respect to growing up, did the person3 have an incident in high school or4 throughout the period of life that has5 created certain sorts of feelings about6 individuals. 8 I'm standing there with a9 sweatshirt on, I get a look. I'm10 standing there with a suit on, I get a11 nod, and they don't necessarily recognize12 who I am. And my concern is that when we13 talk about recruitments -- and I don't14 know how much you can do, because I15 understand that we bring in significant16 numbers of police officers during the17 course of the terms of recruitment. We18 spoke earlier about background checks as19 it relates to Pennsylvania and the20 ability to do background checks on people21 who are getting permits to carry, unlike22 in Florida. 1 experiences were when they grew up in2 certain neighborhoods? I mean -- and we3 can be candid here. This gentleman and I4 are like extremely good friends, but when5 we were growing up, he lived south of6 Girard Avenue, I lived north of Girard7 Avenue. I couldn't go south of Girard8 Avenue, he couldn't go north of Girard9 Avenue. 14 I mean, there's those types of15 things that develop a person's mindset as16 it relates to how they carry out their17 life, and I'm just wondering, is there a18 way that we can get into the psyche of an19 individual so we can stop it at the early20 phases so a person just doesn't drive by21 in a car and look at somebody standing on22 the corner and immediately, because of23 the way that person is dressed, he's24 probably up to something, you know. 1 mean, that's just kind of -- then it goes2 from there, and it creates, as you said,3 stop and frisk. Because I do think stop4 and frisk has created a significant part5 of the problem, because I believe that6 the more interaction you have with7 individuals in the community, the8 likelihood that you're going to9 subsequently have some challenges as10 relating escalating as the tension11 between those individuals. 9 There is no one fail-safe way10 of doing it, and people do grow out of11 things, too. I mean, maybe at one point12 in time you couldn't cross a particular13 street for a variety of reasons, but you14 can cross it now and you don't have a15 problem with that. The two of you may16 not have been friends when you were 1717 years old, but you're friends now. 19 So I think we do the best we20 can to try the background, to try to make21 sure that we have people that have the22 right character to become police23 officers, the right temperament. 1 strengthen it, but I want to put a lot of2 emphasis on that, because I think it's3 important that we get the right people in4 the Department to begin with. I think by5 and large we do that, but then we have6 some that obviously there are some7 issues. 11

Thank you.12 Commissioner, with respect to -- and13 you've referenced this. As it relates to14 an individual's ability to make a15 complaint -- and I'm speaking mostly from16 experiences that I've had over the last17 year or so. As an example, another18 friend of mine who lives up in North19 Philadelphia, he gets stopped on his20 block. He's actually a guy you probably21 know. He's like Mr. Neighborhood guy,22 does the basketball league. I mean,23 everybody knows him. He's a good guy.24 But that night he gets stopped. He's in25 96 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 his truck and police pull him over, and2 it starts out with the MF's and all of3 the language, and he's like, frankly4 speaking, kind of blown away. He said,5 I'm one of the good guys. And they tear6 his truck, they pull the panels off the7 interior of his truck looking for drugs8 and guns, and it just escalates and9 escalates and gets to the point where10 it's ridiculous.11 He calls me later on, tells me12 what happened. I said, Well, you got to13 go make a complaint. He goes to make a14 complaint and he's immediately15 discouraged. And I believe this guy,16 because I've know him 25 years. He has17 no reason to lie. He's discouraged in18 terms of making a complaint, and the19 person there wants to know why do you20 want to make a complaint? Well, talk to21 me about it, and then it goes on and on,22 and eventually he has to give them the23 form to put the complaint in. And,24 fortunately, he knew me. I called the25 97 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 commander. The commander deals with it2 swiftly. I got to tell you, dealt with3 it internally, identified the4 individuals, and that won't ever happen5 again.6 Can you be a little more7 specific -- and I know you referenced in8 terms of being able to make those9 complaints without feeling any level of10 intimidation, feeling very accommodating11 in terms of being able to make that12 complaint, because people that aren't13 used to dealing with police stations, it14 can be very intimidating. Can you talk15 to me a little more in detail how we can16 enhance that?17 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I think18 something that I've always thought was an19 issue or a problem is when we tell people20 that if you have a problem, go to the21 district that it occurred in and make a22 complaint. I mean, it's not really23 logical to think that most people are24 going to do that, number one, and that25 98 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you're not going to have some issues. So2 we need to make it a lot easier.3 You can do it online now. We4 have a form that just went live recently5 that allows you to make the complaint.6 City facilities, in the meeting I had7 with Councilmember Jones recently --8

Excuse me,9 Commissioner. You said what? City10 facilities?11 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: City12 buildings and facilities. We'll make13 forms available for people. I want to14 make forms available in your offices so15 that if people come to you, you can give16 it to them right there.17 We want to make it as easy as18 possible for people to file a complaint,19 and then we need to be able to20 investigate it. Not every complaint is21 valid, but we need to investigate it.22 People need to know that we listen, we23 pay attention, we take it seriously. And24 that's very, very important to me, and25 99 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you can't do it -- and we'll continue to2 have forms available at district3 stations, and obviously reinforce the4 fact that if someone comes in to make a5 complaint, they should be able to get a6 form, they should be able to talk to a7 supervisor, they should be able to do all8 those things, but realistically I9 understand the reluctance of people to do10 that, so we need to make it available in11 settings other than just a district12 police facility.13 I have a hotline. That hotline14 rings in my office. The 3009 number, the15 686-3009, that's right in my office, and16 we listen to it every single day, and we17 refer any information. You've got the18 Police Advisory Commission that will be19 coming up shortly, and certainly that's20 an avenue for people to be able to file21 complaints. And we track these. They do22 have tracking numbers. So we track them23 to make sure that we have it and that we24 need to be able to provide feedback to25 100 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 people that have outstanding complaints2 so that they know exactly what's taking3 place.4 DEPUTY

Also,5 Councilman, if I can add to that, we have6 been opening up the other avenues, Town7 Watch, the PDACs, the police districts.8 And in addition, people call my office9 and make the same type of complaints, and10 I, of course, try and push things through11 electronically, trying to be green,12 making sure that we have an immediate13 complaint number that is both filed and14 followed up on.15 You can call 311 and get the16 same kind of things done. We are trying17 to be as open and as -- to deal with the18 issue of where do I go. I always call it19 you have five different areas that if you20 just think about those things, yes, you21 can go to Internal Affairs; yes, you can22 go to the Town Watch; yes, you can do the23 PDACs; yes, you can do the Police24 Advisory Commission; and, yes, you can go25 101 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to Council. Quite frankly, I have heard2 from significant numbers of you, both on3 the phone at different times reporting4 something, and my office takes a look at5 it as well.6 So between the partnership that7 we have and our roles, I think that there8 are a lot of different ways for people to9 feel that not only will they get an10 answer, but there is a way for it to be11 lodged somewhere, answered and responded12 to. And I think that our ability to have13 put more resources in this area, quite14 frankly, will help with the speed that15 these things will be brought together and16 something will happen. Not just you made17 a complaint, you never hear about it, but18 now we have additional resources that19 will get those complaints handled and get20 something back out so that you can have21 it and you can be reported on that as22 well.23 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:24 Councilman Rizzo.25 102 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Thank you.2 Are you done?3

No, I'm not4 done.5

Let him6 finish.7

Thank you,8 Councilman.9 Thank you. You referenced10 certain changes that you're working on.11 Can you through the Chair just give us a12 list of some of the recommendations and13 the timeline in terms of the possible14 implementation of some of those things?15 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:16 Absolutely.17

It's very18 helpful. And then real briefly -- and19 I'll probably come back later -- I'm a20 true believer of police-community21 relations. I think because at the end of22 the day, I think that if you deal with23 the problem on the front side, we don't24 have to deal with it on the back side and25 103 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 some of the challenges that we experience2 in the newspaper about citizens being3 abused, police officers being arrested.4 I think that if we can create a better5 environment early on as it relates to6 police officers and individuals, I think7 that that will eliminate a significant8 amount of the negatives associated with9 some of the back side.10 The PSA -- and I see Deputy11 Mayor Gillison smiling -- is something12 that was implemented up in the13 neighborhood up in a part of my district.14 I know you're probably doing it15 throughout the City. It is something16 that has, frankly speaking, been somewhat17 successful. I talked to Officer Williams18 last night. I actually saw him at my19 holiday function, and I think that if we20 put more resources in those type of21 activities, frankly speaking, that it22 will create a better environment so we23 don't find ourselves sitting in the City24 Council Chambers having citizens feel25 104 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that they need to come down here in 202 degree weather to talk about some of the3 levels of abuse that they've experienced.4 I mean, we shouldn't be in this position5 in 2010.6 We understand that there's7 always going to be problems, but too8 often, not just in this case, but I think9 that we spend so much money on the back10 side and the criminal justice system and11 spending on, what is it, like $20,000 a12 year, higher than that, $40,000 a year to13 keep a person incarcerated as opposed to14 spending $15,000 a year to send them to15 Temple University to get adequately16 educated. And we talk about those17 things, but I don't ever think that we18 make the final decision to say, You know19 what, we're going to just change this20 approach dramatically and we're going to21 put that money on the front side.22 Is there the possibility -- and23 I say this as we're coming up close to24 our budget process -- that some of the25 105 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 resources; i.e., budget related, can be2 focused on the front side of this,3 creating the PSAs or creating these type4 of programs that will benefit our5 citizens on the front side, subsequently6 improving the relationships between the7 police and the local residents in the8 City of Philadelphia so we can minimize9 the negatives associated with some of the10 back side?11 DEPUTY

Well,12 Councilman, absolutely. I think that13 what you have been able to enjoy, I14 think, is the way that we've been trying15 to change that relationship and the PSA16 model that the Police Commissioner17 started with the police service areas and18 now we've expanded it and we have a19 couple of pilot programs. Your district20 was the first, was one of the first21 areas, that we had chose a small22 geographic area to change the23 relationship between the police and the24 citizens, and to go in and listen to the25 106 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 citizens and have them drive, what I2 call, they drive the bus. What they3 think that they need in their communities4 is how the City is responding. And we5 are up to now four pilots, I believe it6 is, where we are trying to look at7 different areas so we get this right.8 Because you can't just throw a whole lot9 of resources in without having models10 that you know will work. So we have over11 the last year expanded it.12 The Police Commissioner has13 been just way out in front on trying to14 make sure that the officers in that15 district understand and in that pilot16 area, how it's different, how this17 community policing model is different18 than any others that have been going on19 in other areas and how they're responding20 to the uniqueness that is Philadelphia,21 quite frankly. Because some things that22 work in your district may not work in23 Councilman Jones' district, which is24 where our second pilot is right now. And25 107 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 we're learning how to do those things and2 listening to the community groups in3 those areas, and that will be how we will4 go forward and what resources I will have5 to provide on behalf of the City to make6 sure that we can pull these things and7 keep them going so that we're not just8 doing program change, we're doing culture9 change. I mean, that's really the10 emphasis. And the Police Commissioner11 has provided quite a bit -- obviously12 just great leadership in going forward.13 I've been working with various14 Councilpeople who we've chosen different15 areas to pilot and to get those -- change16 the cultures in those smaller PSA areas,17 and you're going to hear more and more18 about it, because we're getting the data19 now as to how the community has responded20 in a positive way to the community21 policing efforts that we're using because22 we are changing culture.23 So the answer is yes. I'm a24 big proponent. Quite frankly, I spent 3025 108 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 years trying to make sure that people2 understood that if you put the money on3 the front end, on the back end you'll4 have to spend less. And we have made5 those investments. We've done it in a6 small area, because we didn't want to7 just go out and say let's try and change8 something and just have it fail. This is9 a long-term matter. It will take years10 to make sure that we get this right for11 each community, but we wanted to make12 sure that we're doing it right.13 Between your district and, I14 believe it's, Councilwoman15 Quinones-Sanchez's district was the first16 area where it started. It came as a17 result of these two gentlemen sitting18 next to me identifying what the police19 needed and how we needed to turn it20 around. And now after a year -- we're21 coming up on a year anniversary -- we're22 now putting it into three other areas to23 see if those districts, with their unique24 challenges, can be met and how that would25 109 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 change the delivery of services to those2 as well. But that's what we're doing,3 and that's what we're emphasizing. And I4 wholeheartedly agree with you that that's5 what the future is and where we're going.6

Thank you.7 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:8 Councilman Rizzo.9

10 I'm going to start off with11 something that was said, I think, by my12 colleague Councilman Jones, the word13 "courtesy," but, Commissioner, what I14 want to ask you about is what it's like15 to be a police officer. I know a lot of16 young men and women before they were17 police officers, today they're different18 people because of what they've19 experienced on the street. Their20 opinions changed. 1 some cases every day of their lives, the2 worst conditions a person can see? 9 What do we do to kind of work10 with them? 14 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I15 agree with you, Councilman, and you raise16 a good point. There are a couple things17 that I'd like to say here. 22 There are more decent, law-abiding23 citizens living in the roughest24 neighborhood than criminals. 7 Now, the psychological8 well-being of our officers is pretty much9 what you're getting at, and I think it's10 very important. We certainly have always11 had an employee assistance program, but12 one thing that came about from the string13 of tragedies we had back in 2008 when we14 had five officers killed in the line of15 duty, we formed a partnership with Penn16 Behavioral Health to provide better17 services to officers, because my concern18 was that the trauma associated with19 having so many losses in such a short20 period of time certainly would have a21 negative impact on officers as they get22 out there every single day. 17 So I'm very concerned about18 that issue, but we do have a very strong19 partnership with Penn Behavioral Health,20 one of the premier behavioral health21 schools in the country, to help us better22 work with our officers, whether it's23 group sessions or whatever it is that24 needs to happen. 5 COUNCILMAN RIZZO:6 Commissioner, I want to go back. I7 walked through the City of New York this8 weekend and I noticed on the side of the9 police car that "courtesy" was written on10 the side. And I think that people, the11 average person that doesn't have a lot of12 contact, don't have a lot of contact with13 police officers, don't understand. 16 An example, someone, a young17 woman, a young man goes through a red18 light. Two-officer car, one officer gets19 out, the other stands behind the recorder20 on the other side of the car. 22 A person at the scene of a23 police action are sometimes talked to in24 a way where, Get away, get back. 1 understand that it's the way officers are2 trained and sometimes you can't be3 Mr. Personality or Ms. Personality at the4 scene when a lot of stuff is going on,5 but I do think that there is a way that6 when a person does go through a red7 light, that the approach could be a8 little different. I don't necessarily9 know that approach, but I can tell you,10 I've talked to a lot of people in11 preparation for this hearing. I asked a12 couple people -- I had to ask a question,13 What would be the question to ask the14 Police Commissioner or the Deputy Mayor,15 and I was told by more than just one16 person, The way police officers and the17 public communicate. That, in fact,18 rather than an officer saying, Hey,19 please, could you get behind the yellow20 tape, you can't be here. I mean, just21 ripping them up and telling them that22 they're not supposed to be here. 1 after you're out there so long, you2 forget to be polite, I think. I don't3 know that. But when I saw the word4 "courtesy," knowing this hearing was5 today, on the side of the New York police6 car, I said in many police departments,7 courtesy isn't always up front. And I8 guess it's tough to come across in a way9 that you would like them to come across,10 but I think you know what I mean. People11 sometimes get curious. They come out of12 their homes, they get to a scene of a13 crime in progress and the officer is14 trying to keep them safe, or a building15 might blow up on them. 14 You know, it's a difficult15 situation and it's kind of like running16 hot or running cold.

17 People that have heavily tinted windows,18 you can't see inside, could be the best19 person in the world, but when you're20 approaching that car, you don't know21 that. And, yeah, if it's a two-person22 car, one is going to be out of the car on23 the passenger side. 3 Courtesy, respect, there's no4 need to use profanity toward people,5 things of that nature. I mean, even6 though the individual that you're7 speaking with may be using it toward you,8 someone has to be the adult in the group9 and calm things down best they can. 13 I think it's important that we14 keep this in context. We've got a lot of15 issues in our communities, and there are16 a lot of places where the streets are not17 very safe. 19 We've had 290 murders. 1 situations, and I don't want to leave2 this as if it's all the police creating3 issues out there, because we all know4 it's not true. Some of our neighborhoods5 are impacted by crime far more than6 others. 12 There's issues when you talk13 about the street stops. 22 The bottom line is, there's no excuse for23 not being respectful toward another24 individual at all. 1 and do so in a professional way, and2 that's what we're striving for. That3 doesn't mean we're going to get down to4 zero complaints. 7 I recognize that we have a8 problem in our department right now in9 the way in which we're interacting with10 the public, and that's got to stop. We11 are not against one another. We have to12 work together to get at those individuals13 who are out here causing harm in our14 community. We can only do that in15 partnership, and it's imperative that we16 have strong relationships. That's why17 the PSAs, that's why the same officers18 working the same area every day, that's19 why we're trying to improve our20 recruitment and hiring, so we bring on21 board the right folks, that's why the22 in-service training for the veterans that23 are already there. 5 So I think we got to just6 maintain a balance. I'm committed to7 doing everything humanly possible and so8 is Deputy Ross and the Deputy Mayor and9 everybody that's here today to make sure10 that we move from a good department to a11 great department. 14 COUNCILMAN RIZZO:15 Commissioner, thank you very much, and,16 again, like you started off the17 conversation, the majority of our men and18 women do just such a great job, and this19 place would be in chaos without you guys20 for one day. 5

Thank you,6 Madam Chair.7

Thank8 you. You know, it is true, we could9 not -- this city could not function10 without a police department. We're just11 trying to figure out how we can work12 together and keep us moving. And we've13 all said it, we all know it,14 communication is the important key here.15 Many, many incidents start as a result of16 just the officer and a citizen17 communicating.18 So, therefore, do you do19 customer service type of training,20 reinforce it, and if you do it, how often21 and can you change and do it more often?22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS:23 Well, I mean, Councilwoman, a lot of that24 starts with, again, what the Commissioner25 122 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 talked about, the training that we2 incorporate from the Academy forward.3 One of the reasons -- and I don't want to4 overstate it enough, the foot beats and5 how we try to get some of these young6 officers so that they are out there out7 of that vehicle so that they get to know8 who the good people are versus the bad9 people standing on the corner. And a lot10 of times understanding that, that will11 make the difference between people12 feeling better about the police in short.13 I mean, look, we all know -- I14 mean, the Commissioner talks about it all15 the time, recognizing the difference16 between the basketball team and the17 gang-banger on the corner, and we know18 that that goes a long way towards19 improving police-community relations.20 We stress over and over,21 because I get calls from you, I get calls22 from Councilman, everybody up there,23 about issues that happen in our24 community, and when we get them, we deal25 123 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 with them very seriously.2 In terms of community service,3 I mean, maybe not in the sense that you4 know Wawa will be talking about, but we5 talk about these things each and every6 day, because you can't stress enough the7 importance of understanding that you8 serve the community where you came from9 and understanding that you want somebody10 to patrol in the area the same way you11 would patrol your mother's area or you12 would want that area patrolled. I mean,13 it's just something you just have to14 constantly reinforce. You can't say it15 enough.16 And I would just say to17 Councilman Rizzo's issue, I mean, there18 are police officers out there with 35, 4019 years on that don't know how to do20 anything but be courteous, irrespective21 of what they've seen, because they22 understand the importance of treating23 people right, treating people the way24 you're supposed to be treated.25 124 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 We start from the Academy.2 PSAs, again, I want to talk about that,3 because it's very important. The4 Commissioner brought this to town. This5 whole concept talks about connecting with6 the community, community service at its7 best, and it gets beneath what you folks8 were typically used to dealing with, even9 myself, where that stopped at the10 captain. Now you're talking about a11 lieutenant and a sergeant having to take12 on that charge just like the captain did,13 holding those meetings just like a14 captain would. And not only that, team15 building from the standpoint of police16 officers being a part of that17 problem-solving, which I think is18 critical. I mean, because once that19 police officer recognizes that I'm as20 much a part of solving the problems in21 the community that I police, they see the22 people there differently, and I think23 that goes a long way.24

Well, I25 125 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 also think the PSA model is good and it2 does give people an opportunity to get to3 know other officers at the station other4 than the captain and the -- I think it's,5 what is it, the administrative officer?6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS:7 Correct.8

So it's9 really good. I mean, I've been to some10 of those meetings and now I do know other11 sergeants and things like that, and it's12 really great.13 What happens, though, if you14 get the same complaint against the same15 officer over and over again? What16 actually happens? And what is the17 internal, whatever you call it, internal18 investigation process?19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS:20 Well, there is a review process that21 Internal Affairs undertakes whereby it's22 almost a flagging system where when an23 officer gets X number of complaints, the24 Internal Affairs Bureau then calls up25 126 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 their commanding officer, and they sit2 down, that commanding officer along with3 their supervisor, and they discuss4 problems that are inherent in that5 officer's background, the complaints that6 are constantly coming up. But there's7 some new things that we'll be doing, the8 Commissioner is putting in place, with9 regard to exactly what you're talking10 about in terms of going beyond that11 scope, making certain that inspectors,12 for example, are involved. So let me13 give a real-life example.14 If you get Officer Ross who15 constantly gets verbal abuse complaints,16 maybe it's on traffic stops, and after17 the second or third one, Officer Ross now18 has to go beyond the scope of just19 dealing with his captain or his20 lieutenant and has to sit before his21 inspector. Now, your inspector has to22 deal with this issue. The officer has to23 deal with someone who he typically does24 not deal with in the inspector and25 127 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 recognize instantly that I'd better get2 my act together.3 So, I mean, there are any4 number of things that we're looking to do5 and some of which we've already started6 to do, where we just flag the people and7 we know exactly where the problems are.8 We're starting to deal with them and9 trying to address them at their very10 core.11

So at12 some point there is an outcome, though?13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS: Oh,14 there's an outcome, and those cases are15 investigated. Each and every complaint16 is investigated, but in terms of -- I17 think I was getting at the crux of your18 issue trying to identify somebody who is19 problematic because the same issues keep20 coming up.21

Well,22 that was the issue too, right. Okay.23 And it is a good idea to make sure that24 we have those grievance forms, complaint25 128 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 forms in our office. We can always2 download them, but it's just simpler if3 you have them here. And I assume you4 probably have them at libraries and5 playgrounds or rec centers?6 DEPUTY

Rec7 centers. They will be at the rec8 centers. I know they haven't been placed9 there yet, but they will be. That's part10 of the proactive things that the11 Commissioner is putting forward.12

Okay. I13 want to get to some of the other14 witnesses that are here, and we may have15 further questions for the Police16 Department. Is everybody going to leave17 or are some people going to stay or are18 you available all day?19 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There20 will be some staying.21

Excuse22 me?23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS: I24 think the Commissioner and myself, at a25 129 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 minimum, will be here all day.2

Okay.3 Great. Great. Thank you. Thank you for4 your testimony, and we do want to get to5 some of the other witnesses.6 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you7 for calling this hearing, ma'am. Thank8 you.9

You're10 welcome. Thank you.11 Okay. Our next group is the12 Police Advisory Commission, Bill Johnson,13 Joi Spraggins; Town Watch, Anthony14 Murphy; and John McGrody from the FOP.15 (Witnesses approached witness16 table.)17

Hi. Good18 afternoon. Please identify yourself for19 the record. Don't forget to speak into20 the mike so we can hear you. And if you21 have written testimony, one of the22 Sergeant-At-Arms will obtain it to23 distribute to Committee members.24 Thank you. You can proceed.25 130 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

2 Good afternoon, Councilwoman Miller,3 distinguished members of the Committee on4 Public Safety and other members of City5 Council, the Mayoral Administration and6 the public. 20 More than 15 years ago, the21 Philadelphia Police Advisory Commission22 was created by the Executive Order of23 then Mayor Edward Rendell. 1 concerned with very serious allegations2 of police misconduct arising out of the3 39th District. 8 Since its creation, the Police9 Advisory Commission has worked tirelessly10 to fulfill its mission. 1 function is generally triggered by the2 receipt of a complaint of police3 misconduct. Any citizens who believe4 that they are a victim of police5 misconduct may file a complaint with the6 Commission on a form devised by the7 Commission. 15 The Commission's own16 investigative staff first process and17 then thoroughly investigates the18 complaints we receive. 1 following full investigation and, where2 necessary, conduct hearings that include3 the complainant, the police officer or4 officers and witnesses. After this5 process is completed, the Commission may6 make written recommendations for7 discipline or exonerating officers8 accused of misconduct. 12 The Philadelphia Police13 Advisory Commission is comprised of 1914 citizen volunteers who hail from every15 corner of the City and every walk of16 life. Our members include business and17 community leaders, clergy, former police18 officers, attorneys and academics, who19 together represent the rich cultural,20 racial and ethnic diversity of our great21 city. As you know, we commissioners are22 appointed pursuant to a selection process23 involving the Mayor and City Council. 1 appointed eight new commissioners, and2 after a fully transparent series of3 public hearings examining approximately4 over 50 applicants, Council submitted a5 list of 21 recommended citizen6 volunteers, of which 11 were appointed by7 the Mayor in September to fully empower8 the Commission. 14 Since April, the Police15 Advisory Commission has been very, very16 busy. 10 By inviting senior representatives from11 the Police Department to our community12 meetings, the Commission has helped to13 open up the lines of communication14 between the Department and the community15 stakeholders. 2 It is truly our honor to be of3 service. 9

Thank10 you.11 Do you have testimony,12 Ms. Johnson?13 (Ms. Gess yelling from14 audience.)15

Ma'am,16 you can't ask --17

I do not.18

You have19 to ask a question from the table here.20 You can't ask it from out there.21 (Ms. Gess yelling from22 audience.)23

Excuse24 me. Mr. Johnson, do you have testimony?25 137 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

I do not, ma'am.2

I know3 that you do, Anthony. Okay. Thank you.4 Please proceed.5

Good afternoon,6 Councilwoman Miller and members of the7 Committee on Public Safety. I am Anthony8 Murphy, Director of Town Watch Integrated9 Services. Thank you for allowing me to10 address this distinguished Committee on11 the important topic of police conduct in12 our city.13 I would like to begin by saying14 that Town Watch Integrated Services15 organizes citizens throughout the City of16 Philadelphia to patrol their17 neighborhoods and serve as the eyes and18 ears of the community. These patrols19 help to serve as a deterrent to criminal20 activity and also to provide immediate21 information to the Police Department. As22 a part of our work, we engage citizens23 and police officers to improve and24 maintain a positive relationship. In25 138 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 this manner, we are working to improve2 public safety in a holistic way. We3 strive to ensure that citizens understand4 the police and the nature of police work.5 We also strive to ensure that police6 officers understand the needs and7 concerns of citizens. We are also8 available to assist citizens with9 complaints against officers and help them10 to understand the complaint process, and11 in this way, it is hoped that the12 citizens won't feel intimidated.13 I also believe it's important14 to note that participation in Town Watch15 and our other safety programs continue to16 grow.17 Thank you for this opportunity,18 and I will gladly answer any questions19 you may have.20

Thank21 you.22 With the Police Advisory23 Commission, how many complaints are you24 currently investigating?25 139 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

To date, we2 have approximately 136 complaints.3

So how4 many did you have last year? What's the5 date, timeline on that?6

I'm going to --7 I would like to defer to William Johnson,8 Executive Director.9

Thank10 you.11

As of last year,12 we investigated 195 complaints from13 citizens. The 136 number is our count of14 complaints to date.15

I'm16 sorry. Say that again, that last17 statement.18

The 13619 complaints is the total number of20 complaints that have been filed with the21 Commission to date.22

For 2010.23

For 2010. I'm24 sorry.25 140 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

I'm2 sorry.3

Up until this4 point, December of 2010, we've had 1365 complaints filed.6

December7 of 2009?8

'10.9

'10?10

Yes.11

I'm a bit12 confused.13

I'll clarify.14 For 2010 to date, there has been 13615 complaints filed.16

From what17 was the beginning of that time period?18 Like was it last year?19

For the20 calendar year. In 2009 -- and we've21 published this in our annual reports --22 for the calendar year, there was 19523 complaints.24

Okay.25 141 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 And now we're down to 136?2

Correct.3

All4 right. That's good. So we're showing5 some progress.6 Councilman Jones.7

Yes. Good8 afternoon.9

Wait.10 I'm sorry. We really should have heard11 from the FOP before we started questions.12 So let's hear from you guys.13 MR. McGRODY: Good afternoon,14 Councilwoman Miller.15

17 MR. McGRODY: My name is John18 McGrody. I'm the Vice-President of the19 Fraternal Order of Police, Lodge No. 20 I appear here today with Eugene Blagmond21 sitting behind me to my right. 1 members. I appear before you here today2 as a Philadelphia police officer and I3 serve as the Vice-President of Fraternal4 Order of Police, Lodge No. 5. FOP5 President John McNesby has asked me to6 appear to represent the concerns and7 thoughts of our 14,500 members, of which8 6,000 of them are active-duty officers on9 the streets of Philadelphia. The FOP10 stands united here today with Police11 Commissioner Ramsey and Deputy Mayor12 Gillison. 1 second-guessed workers in City2 government. On any given day, a3 Philadelphia police officer can face a4 scrutiny of the news media, a judge, a5 jury, a district attorney, a public6 defender, a politician, an FBI agent or7 any public advocate outside of the8 Department. Inside the Department, the9 officer is subject to the scrutiny and10 review of their supervisors, the Internal11 Affairs Division, the command staff, the12 IMPACT Division and the Police Advisory13 Commission. I am quite sure that I14 missed a few folks in this list of15 solicitation of individuals here. 19 By telling you that our20 officers are the most investigated21 members of City government, I ask that22 you act thoughtfully and rationally as23 you address the prospect of misdeeds or24 wrongdoing within our ranks. 3 When a Philadelphia police4 officer exits their patrol car or enters5 a home or business, they have no idea6 what they may encounter. 12 Interaction with police and citizens is13 inevitable in a free society in which our14 citizens have more rights than any other15 individuals in the world. 19 When stopping individuals,20 officers have the obligation to provide21 for the safety of the individual they are22 encountering, other members of the23 community and the police officers24 themselves. 1 often in the last several years, our2 police officers have been the victims of3 violence perpetrated upon them by4 individuals they have encountered on the5 streets. In fact, just five days ago, a6 police officer was shot in an encounter7 with a motorist. 10 In the past year, I served as a11 volunteer on a committee of the state MPO12 Commission, which is the commission that13 oversees training for police officers14 throughout the State of Pennsylvania,15 regarding ethics and career survival for16 police officers. This course will be17 mandatory training for all Pennsylvania18 police officers in the calendar year19 2011. The Philadelphia Police Department20 has also devised their own internal21 ethics course which every Philadelphia22 police officer must complete in addition23 to the 2011 state ethics course. 1 to act and react. 5 When the first inkling of a6 problem surfaced, it was members of the7 Philadelphia Police Department and police8 officers themselves that decided to act9 swiftly and address the problem. Under10 the leadership of Commissioner Ramsey and11 FOP President John McNesby, these12 initiative are going into effect. 21 Some have asked me how to best22 restore the honor and integrity in our23 department. In my mind, there's nothing24 to restore. 5 percent of our2 members who leave the safety of their3 homes and families and risk their lives4 on a daily basis in completing the5 honorable work of a Philadelphia police6 officer. For the vast majority of our7 members, there is no scandal. 13

Thank14 you.15 Any questions from members of16 the Committee?17 Councilman Jones.18

Thank you,19 Madam Chair.20 Thank you all for your21 testimony. I agree with 99 percent of22 what you said, except for the good guys23 always ride in the front and the bad guys24 always ride in the back. Sometimes --25 148 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 (Applause.)2

Sometimes3 there are innocent people who find4 themselves in the back of the car as5 well, and we need to know the difference6 and be able to treat all of them with7 dignity and respect. Force that is due,8 but not more. And that's the only9 possible way we disagree on that.10 MR. McGRODY: Councilman Jones,11 that's not the way I meant it. If you12 took it that way, I'm sorry. What I13 meant is if there's bad guys sitting in14 the back of the car -- in the front of15 the car, we need to get them in the back16 seat. That's our viewpoint.17

Then we18 agree. All right.19 Let's go with a couple of20 quantifiable questions. I don't -- I21 think I got the figure wrong from22 Commissioner Ramsey. I heard 700 or so23 complaints a year, and then I heard a24 figure of about 100-plus complaints, and25 149 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I'm trying to figure out are they two2 separate sources, and, if so, what are3 those?4

To answer your5 question, Councilman, there are not6 really separate sources. The 1367 complaints that are filed with the Police8 Advisory Commission are included in the9 725 that the Police Commissioner reported10 today.11

So the12 differential, it comes from where? I13 know where yours -- you stated where14 yours come from, but where then does the15 other 600-plus come from that the16 Commissioner referenced? Internal17 Affairs?18

Internal Affairs.19

All right.20 Over the inception of the Commission, how21 many complaints have you received?22

Over 2,500 since23 the inception of the Commission back in24 1994.25 150 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Of those2 2,500, how have they been disposed of?3

Numerous ways.4 Some are fully investigated, others are5 sent to the Police Department for their6 investigation, and then those7 investigations are reviewed. Of course,8 some are dismissed as not being factual9 complaints.10 So there are a number of11 different ways that a complaint may be12 taken out of the process. Along with13 that, we also conduct public hearings,14 actually panel hearings, into certain15 complaints that we believe that there's a16 need to bring certain issues to the17 public forum, and so those would be18 scheduled for public hearings.19

Of the 2,50020 complaints, how many have been found21 warranted, how many have been dismissed?22

Our numbers23 follow pretty much the national numbers.24 Usually about ten percent of all25 151 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 complaints --2

I need to3 know how many, not about. How many?4

How many actual5 complaints? I don't have that number6 with me today. I can get that for you.7

Of that,8 when you say about disposed of, in what9 way? I mean, how have they -- you said a10 number of ten percent national average.11 So tell me what the national average --12