Committee Hearing, December 14, 2010

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY3 Room 400, City Hall6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, December 14, 20107 10:25 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, CHAIR10 COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE11 COUNCILMAN WILLIAM K. GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR.12 COUNCILWOMAN MARIA D. QUINONES-SANCHEZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO, JR.13 BILL 100722 - An ordinance amending Chapter 10-818 of The Philadelphia Code to provide15 that no person shall carry a firearm on public streets or public property unless the person16 is licensed to carry such firearm by a political subdivision of the Commonwealth of17 Pennsylvania... RESOLUTION 100731 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Public Safety to19 hold a public hearing to consider and evaluate the issues surfacing around the Philadelphia20 Police Department and the conduct of its officers.21 - - -23 2

Good2 morning. The Public Safety Committee is3 now in session. We have two bills today,4 and we just want to first recognize a5 quorum. I'm Councilwoman Donna Reed6 Miller, Chair of Public Safety. To my7 left is Councilman Greenlee, a member of8 this Committee. To my far left is9 Councilman Frank Rizzo, who is also a10 member of the Committee. And to my11 right, far right, is Councilman Curtis12 Jones, who is also a member of this13 Committee.14 Will the Clerk please read the15 bill into the record.16

Bill No. 100722,17 amending Chapter 10-818 of The18 Philadelphia Code to provide that no19 person shall carry a firearm on public20 streets or public property unless the21 person is licensed to carry such firearm22 by a political subdivision of the23 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, regardless24 of whether the person possesses a license25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 issued in another state, under certain2 terms and conditions.3

Thank4 you.5 I believe our only witness for6 this bill is Deputy Mayor for Public7 Safety, Everett Gillison. Please sit at8 the table and don't forget to speak into9 the mike and identify yourself. Thank10 you. And proceed with your testimony.11 (Witness approached witness12 table.)13 DEPUTY

Thank14 you. Good morning, Councilwoman Miller15 and members of the Public Safety16 Committee. 17 Gillison. I am the Deputy Mayor for18 Public Safety. Thank you for the19 opportunity to appear before you today on20 behalf of the Nutter Administration to21 testify on Bill No. 1 firearm upon the public streets or on2 public property in the City unless that3 person is licensed by a political4 subdivision of the Commonwealth of5 Pennsylvania, regardless of whether such6 person possesses a license issued by7 another state to carry a firearm or8 licensed to hunt. "11 In order to obtain a license to12 carry a concealed weapon in Pennsylvania,13 a resident must apply to his or her14 county Sheriff or the Police Commissioner15 in Philadelphia to issue the license. In16 accordance with Pennsylvania law, the17 Sheriff's Office or our Police Department18 performs background and criminal history19 checks to determine if the applicant20 possesses the requisite character and21 fitness to carry a concealed weapon. 1 Florida for a non-resident license to2 carry a concealed firearm. 18 This Administration is19 committed to ending this absurd provision20 of the law. This Administration is also21 committed to restoring sanity and reason22 to our gun laws. 1 We are all aware of the danger,2 pain and suffering inflicted upon our3 city due to the proliferation of, and4 easy access to, firearms. We have been5 advised by the Law Department, however,6 that this bill, in its present form,7 would almost certainly be deemed8 preempted by state law. 15 Accordingly, the Administration would16 like to propose an amendment to the bill17 that we believe accomplishes the basic18 substantive goals of the bill and also19 would allow the bill to be defended20 against legal challenge. 1 would allow only either residents of the2 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania possessing3 valid Pennsylvania permits or residents4 of other states who are legally licensed5 to carry a concealed weapon in their6 state and whose state has reciprocal7 carry agreements with Pennsylvania to8 carry a concealed firearm in the City of9 Philadelphia. 15 The amendment further provides16 that if this limitation is deemed too17 restrictive under Pennsylvania law, then18 only Pennsylvanians licensed in states19 with firearm laws similar to those of20 Pennsylvania and which states provide a21 reciprocal privilege for Pennsylvania22 licensees can carry a concealed weapon in23 Philadelphia. 1 General has determined in accordance with2 Pennsylvania firearms laws to satisfy3 those requirements. 5 These restrictions we believe6 would be in keeping with the true intent7 of the Pennsylvania law and would end the8 absurd situation of allowing9 Pennsylvanians to carry concealed10 firearms lawfully with a permit issued by11 the State of Florida. 23

Thank24 you. Thank you for your testimony. I25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 have a couple questions.2 So basically what we're saying3 is someone that does not have a license4 to carry in Pennsylvania to go and obtain5 a license from Florida, that that Florida6 license in Pennsylvania would be null and7 void?8 DEPUTY

That's9 correct.10

You will11 not be able to use it?12 DEPUTY

That's13 correct.14

Okay.15 What about a person that's traveling from16 out of state that has a license in that17 particular state and they come to18 Philadelphia?19 DEPUTY

The20 Pennsylvania laws in the 6100 series of21 the Crimes Code allow for that kind of22 passage through, and as long as you have23 a valid license in that particular home24 state, you are permitted, with notice to25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 the police that you're coming through or2 notice that you're here, to actually3 continue that. But the difference is is4 that you're passing through. You're not5 setting up shop. You're not living here6 for an extended period of time. You're7 only going through. And so that's really8 not applicable or -- we would not be9 affecting that particular aspect of10 carrying a gun for temporary purposes.11

And if12 you have not ever applied for a license13 in Pennsylvania and you go and get this14 license from Florida -- and what other15 states is it besides Florida where you16 can get this license?17 DEPUTY

There18 are -- I believe that the reciprocal19 states on the Attorney General's website,20 there are seven states that people21 have -- that he has approved as having22 reciprocal arrangements with23 Pennsylvania. That is Colorado, Idaho,24 Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 and Utah. Those are the ones that are2 referenced in the amended bill, because3 we have reciprocal arrangements with4 those states and if a person has a5 license in those states, they've already6 passed the minimum test. All others are7 not recognized because we do not have8 reciprocity with any other states.9

What10 about a Pennsylvania license, is that11 good in, say, New Jersey, New York, some12 of the local -- some of our nearby13 states?14 DEPUTY

They're15 not, because we do not have reciprocity16 with those states. The answer to that17 question is no.18

Okay.19 Councilman Rizzo.20

Deputy21 Mayor, let's make sure we get it really22 clear here, at least I need it clear.23 Are you telling me that Colorado, Idaho,24 Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 and Utah are the only states that the2 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania recognizes3 in a reciprocal agreement?4 DEPUTY

That's5 correct.6

What would7 stop Florida from getting their place in8 order and what would stop these other9 states from just getting the reciprocal10 agreement? What are these states doing11 that Florida is not doing?12 DEPUTY

They13 have either similar or laws that the14 Attorney General in his or her capacity15 has deemed to be sufficient to protect16 the rights of Pennsylvanians. So if the17 State of Florida, using your example,18 changed some of its internal rules and19 the Attorney General says we are now20 going to execute a reciprocal21 arrangement, then they would be able to22 use those particular matters. You'd be23 able to use that agreement.24

Could you25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 point out for the Committee what the2 differences are? What does Colorado do?3 Are they mirroring our Pennsylvania4 application? Because the Pennsylvania5 application is not a big deal anymore.6 An average person can walk in and get a7 permit to carry a gun, from what I8 understand. If they haven't been9 arrested, they're pretty much going to10 get a permit. Am I correct? It's pretty11 loose here now.12 DEPUTY

Well, I13 think that I would agree with you that14 the minimum standards to get a license in15 Pennsylvania is rather minimum. I would16 also agree that there are different17 requirements that different states have18 by way of procedure and to apply for the19 matters. In the State of Florida, for20 example, you know that it is covered by21 the Agriculture Department, and when you22 go there, you actually apply through mail23 order and you get a permit through the24 Agriculture Department of the State of25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Florida. That's not done here in the2 State of Pennsylvania. Your procedures3 are quite different. You have to go to4 what we know either the location, the5 Sheriff or the Police Commissioner, you6 have to go through a series of background7 checks. Those are the kinds of things8 that Colorado, Indiana, et cetera, they9 do the same things that we do. The other10 states in the union don't do that.11 I would be able to get back to12 the Chair with all of the differences13 that these places have, but they don't14 have the same agreements in place. They15 don't have the same procedures in place,16 and that's why the state Attorney General17 has not recognized that as being a18 reciprocity state.19

Do we know20 that the state Attorney General -- and21 this will be my last question in this22 go-around. Do we know that the state23 Attorney General manages these reciprocal24 agreements? Do we know that Colorado and25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 the rest that I mentioned haven't relaxed2 their rules and we're assuming that they3 are the same as years ago? I mean,4 how do we know that these states that we5 think we have a reciprocal agreement6 really have a solid program that --7 DEPUTY

That's8 the purview of the Attorney General.9 It's actually found in Pennsylvania10 Control -- Criminal statutes, Section 18,11 Section 6109, and it's actually a12 requirement on the state Attorney General13 yearly to take a look at each of these14 states, take a look at what procedures15 they have in place and to offer16 reciprocity in Pennsylvania if they17 change certain things in their matter, in18 their laws.19 It is incumbent on the state20 Attorney General to follow the laws as21 they are applied. This is a state law,22 and I would assume that the Attorney23 General, being the highest state official24 and state law enforcement official, would25 16 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 follow the law.2

That's what3 I wanted to know. In the next go-around4 I'd like to prepare -- I'd like you to5 describe the process in Philadelphia to6 get a permit, because earlier I said,7 from what I understand, it's really been8 relaxed. So I'd like to know a person9 comes in and the process to get a permit,10 but on my next go-around.11 Thanks, Madam Chair.12 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:13 Councilman Curtis Jones.14

Thank you,15 Madam Chair. It's kind of ironic that16 this Committee is going to review two17 different issues today. One of them is18 obviously the one before us by way of19 reciprocity in firearms and then the20 other one is how to get a better handle21 on community interaction with the police22 force, and what is a striking23 contradiction is that the last thing --24 although I recognize everyone's right to25 17 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 bear arms and things of that nature. In2 Philadelphia, we have reached an alarming3 statistic, particularly in the African4 American community -- and I saw this, I5 checked it. I don't get all my6 information from Google, but every now7 and then, it is a good source -- that8 African American men have committed9 homicide one on the other. The statistic10 now out-passes, surpasses, all of the11 lynchings that the Klu Klux Klan did12 since its inception, and for us to be13 talking about seriously being a little14 more lax about how firearms get into our15 community is just -- it just flies in the16 face of all rationale as to the trends of17 what's going on in our community. So we18 should not be looking for more reasons to19 bring guns in. We should be looking for20 more reasons to keep them out, and that's21 my point.22 Thank you, Madam Chair.23

Thank24 you, Councilman Jones.25 18 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I just want to make note that2 in attendance is also Councilman Darrell3 Clarke, and we also have Councilwoman4 Maria Sanchez in the Chambers.5 I have a question. Currently,6 what is the policy if you stop someone7 who has a weapon and the license is from8 Florida?9 DEPUTY

It is a10 valid -- right now the law is that he has11 a valid, he or she, has a valid permit.12

And they13 can maintain their license, they can keep14 their -- I mean, they can keep their15 weapon?16 DEPUTY

I will17 defer to anyone that -- I mean, obviously18 I have the entire command staff behind19 me.20

We see.21 DEPUTY

But it22 is a valid permit. I think what the23 Councilman's bill is trying to do is to24 put a little bit of teeth into the fact25 19 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that we should be able to investigate. I2 know that we take their names. I know3 that we take their addresses. I know we4 try and figure out exactly what they're5 doing and how they're doing it, because6 if they run a regular Pennsylvania -- if7 they run against the -- there's a check,8 a computer check. It will not come up9 with a valid Pennsylvania license, but if10 they have the Florida permit, we'll take11 the information, but it is a valid permit12 to carry. And we're trying to get a13 little bit of control over this14 particular aspect of this loophole. I15 think that's what the Councilman's bill16 is trying to do, and we wholeheartedly17 support these kinds of efforts.18

Well, I19 think we all agree that there are just20 too many weapons on the street.21 DEPUTY

Amen.22

And we23 can do -- we want to be able to do24 whatever we can, and that's why we put25 20 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 gun laws in place.2 Thank you.3 Councilman Rizzo.4

Mayor5 Gillison, I'm a little confused. The6 seven states that are listed here that7 have reciprocal agreements with PA with8 the same criteria, could you tell me how9 many states -- you just said that you10 could come here and carry a permit.11 That's what we're talking about. But how12 many states do have reciprocal agreements13 that don't comply with Pennsylvania's gun14 carry law?15 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:16 Councilman, I will actually verify this,17 but from what I am aware, I believe that18 Florida is the only one, but I will19 verify that and get back to the Chair.20 But I agree that the one that this would21 be aimed at is closing that loop now.22 (Witness approached witness23 table.)24

But my point25 21 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 is, are there other -- and you just said2 you'd get back to us, but does anyone in3 the room know how many states we have4 reciprocal -- a police officer stops5 somebody from Boston. Do we have a6 reciprocal agreement with them? I don't7 know.8 DEPUTY

I will9 have to get back to you.10 I've just been told that there11 are 17 other states that are being12 investigated to see whether or not they13 meet the second criteria, that their laws14 are similar and they are still going15 through the process. But I'll get back16 to you with that number.17

What I'd18 really like to know, how many more like19 Florida are there.20 DEPUTY

I'll21 have to get back to you.22

Okay. Thank23 you.24 DEPUTY

I think25 22 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 it's three. I'm being told it's three.2 I've been told that there's three, but3 I'll actually get back to you with the4 exact name of the states.5

Thank you.6

So if7 someone is stopped and their weapon is8 taken by the police, what happens?9 Because that has happened. You know10 that.11 DEPUTY

If a12 weapon or any time a property is seized,13 there has to be -- there is a procedure14 to get the property back, obviously.15 It's called a return of property hearing.16 You can actually -- the person can17 actually say that I disagree with the18 action of the police officer. The Police19 Department will issue a property receipt.20 That person can go to court, put their21 case on and say that I have a valid22 permit, this was seized illegally, and23 let a judge decide whether or not they24 should get the weapon back. That's the25 23 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 way that it works in all kinds of2 situations, and that would be no3 different in that circumstance.4

I asked5 you that question because I wanted to put6 the answer on the record, because that7 has happened. I mean, I have that8 constituent that keeps showing up in the9 Daily News regarding his weapons. And10 part of what we do here is to educate11 people.12 DEPUTY

Any13 time a citizen believes that property has14 been seized illegally or even if they15 have a problem, they say that they don't16 believe that it should have been subject17 of the confiscation, they have a right to18 go to court. And they can file to go to19 court, and the judge, which is the20 judge's role, is to stand in between and21 make a decision whether or not the22 seizure was legal or the seizure was23 correct. That happens every day. I24 mean, there are return of property25 24 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 matters in Motions Court and the Courts2 of Common Pleas and the courts of civil3 matters every day in this city.4

Thank5 you.6 Councilman Clarke.7

Thank you,8 Madam Chair.9 Good morning.10 DEPUTY

Good11 morning.12

Real13 briefly, first I want to thank you and14 members of the Law Department for coming15 up with some amendments that would make16 this more defensible. It will obviously17 end up in court, such as the last bills.18 I have to tell you, personally I would19 have rather gone for the more aggressive20 version, because, frankly speaking, I21 don't understand -- and I'm sure that22 most of you all agree -- why a person,23 regardless of any reciprocal agreements,24 should be able to carry a gun in the25 25 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 streets of the City of Philadelphia2 unless they pass the criteria established3 by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I4 mean, I just don't understand that, how5 you can come here, you can walk around6 the streets with a gun and you've never7 gone through a background check in8 Pennsylvania. That's just like amazing9 to me, but there's the Pennsylvania law10 and then there's Darrell Clarke's law and11 then there's reality.12 I want to say, though, I thank13 you for what it is you're attempting to14 do. I think that based on the amendments15 that you've provided, it should be16 extremely defensible, because we do look17 at comparable criteria as it relates to18 the reciprocal agreements through some of19 the states. This whole Florida notion,20 how you can online get a permit to carry,21 is quite bizarre. I don't know how22 anyone should suggest that somehow that's23 defensible from that perspective, that24 people should be able to do that. And,25 26 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 unfortunately, we've already had a couple2 of instances where an individual did in3 fact do that and ended up doing the4 commission of an assault.5 So I just want to say for the6 record I want to thank you all. I look7 forward to being with you in court again.8 And actually as we move down the process9 on the pending legislation that we have10 had, I believe we're in Commonwealth11 Court now, we've passed Commonwealth12 Court and we're waiting a Supreme Court13 challenge?14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The15 Supreme Court declined to hear the --16

They've17 declined to hear it because of the18 standing issue. And having conversations19 with the District Attorney, I believe20 that -- and I shouldn't put words in his21 mouth, but I'm going to do it. I believe22 that he says he's prepared on at least23 one, possibly two of those to possibly24 proceed with an actual arrest and a25 27 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 possible prosecution that will get us2 into court as a defendant so we can get a3 handle on this once and for all,4 particularly on the lost or stolen guns,5 which is another bill that I think is one6 of the most reasonable approaches that7 we've attempted to do.8 So I just want to for the9 record thank you all for your support and10 look forward to helping you all put your11 briefs together and we go to court.12 DEPUTY

Thank13 you very much, Councilman, and thank you14 for your leadership on this matter. It15 is much appreciated.16 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:17 Councilman Rizzo.18

Thank you.19 I want to come back, Deputy20 Mayor Gillison, to understand better.21 We're critical of some of the other22 states that maybe is loose as can be, but23 I know that the standards in Pennsylvania24 have deteriorated in the last few years25 28 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 on getting a gun. Could you tell me,2 whoever is going to speak on it, describe3 the process of a person applying for the4 first time for a carry.5 DEPUTY

I'll be6 glad to provide that, and I know that the7 person that's best situated to answer8 that would be Lieutenant Healy, who is9 present with me sitting here at the10 table.11 LIEUTENANT HEALY: For the12 record, Lieutenant Healy from the Police13 Commissioner's Office.14 The process for obtaining a15 firearm's permit in Pennsylvania, quite16 frankly -- the standards haven't17 deteriorated. Actually, they're slightly18 higher than other states -- is actually19 positive for Pennsylvania. The issues,20 as you would come in with an application,21 the state-filled application with your22 references, it would be processed through23 our Gun Permits Unit. They would do the24 background investigation, which consists25 29 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 of the Pennsylvania Instant Check System,2 which checks you for a criminal history3 record as well as involuntary mental4 commitments and stuff like that that5 would preclude you under federal and6 state law. In addition to Pennsylvania,7 then, we would also look to the character8 and reputation of the individual to9 determine whether or not they're a hazard10 to the community. That's a standard11 which other states or other jurisdictions12 don't actually apply. We do in13 Pennsylvania. That's why we can14 disapprove people in Pennsylvania and15 then they can go, turn around to Florida16 and apply.17 Florida standard pretty much is18 they just use the Pick Check. We use an19 additional standard, a step higher than a20 Pick Check. That's why they're qualified21 in Florida, whereas we would disapprove22 them in this state.23 What's also important is, we24 only just -- we don't just disapprove25 30 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 individuals. We also revoke people. We2 revoke licenses based on good cause.3 Now, what happened is -- and this is4 really the scam that's happening, quite5 frankly -- is to appeal our revocation,6 if the Commissioner revokes your license7 for some act and we determine that it's8 careless, negligent or whatever the case9 may be, it costs probably about $1,500 to10 appeal to the Common Pleas Court for a11 decision, whether or not that decision12 was right or wrong. It's cheaper for13 them to now just apply in Florida and get14 a permit irrespective of that revocation.15 Therefore, they've circumvented the whole16 appellate process, the whole17 Commissioner's discretion process.18 The issue that Florida presents19 the problem for is this, quite honestly,20 Florida standards are legitimate21 standards. They actually have higher22 safety standards than we have. You have23 to actually prove that you have a safety24 class, which you don't in Pennsylvania,25 31 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 but in Florida, you don't need to be a2 resident. Therein lies the problem. We3 have no problem with reciprocity4 agreements that are substantially similar5 to ours for their own residents. So when6 a resident from another state comes to7 ours, we recognize their license and we8 recognize theirs. The problem is, with9 Florida they're issuing licenses to10 non-residents. We don't do that in11 Pennsylvania. We issue licenses only to12 us or only to Pennsylvania residents.13 There's a very small class of14 licenses that we will issue. If you come15 to us from another state with already16 have a license, we will accept it, and17 we'll allow you to carry in Pennsylvania,18 but what we'll do is, we will give you a19 Pennsylvania license in addition to your20 other state. Florida won't recognize21 those licenses. So ironically enough,22 they want us to recognize their23 out-of-state licenses, but they won't24 recognize ours. Therein lies the25 32 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 disparity between the law. And the fact2 is, our laws are not substantially3 similar; therefore, they should not be4 subject to a reciprocity agreement.5

Lieutenant6 Healy, let me restate what I said7 earlier. Years ago -- been through the8 process many times -- you mentioned about9 the safety portion. When I say that the10 process has gotten less, I can't even --11 LIEUTENANT HEALY: I know12 exactly where you're going.13

We don't go14 to the range anymore. A person can get a15 permit in Philadelphia and not even know16 what end of the gun to hold.17 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Right. That18 resulted from legislation, I believe, in19 1995. Basically Philadelphia had a20 higher standard than the rest of the21 state. The state laws were consistent.22 They had always been the same, but23 Philadelphia had a higher standard. You24 actually had to prove why you needed a25 33 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 gun and you actually had to shoot ten2 rounds at the range.3

So to4 restate my claim, that at one time the5 standards to get a permit to carry in6 Philadelphia were higher than they are7 presently today.8 DEPUTY

That's9 correct.10

I'm not11 comparing with other states. I'm --12 LIEUTENANT HEALY: No, no. I'm13 just making sure. Philadelphia had its14 own separate standards, correct, but the15 state standards were always the way they16 are now. We actually in Philadelphia had17 legislation which made it higher.18

Were we19 forced to adopt the state rule?20 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Yes.21

We were?22 LIEUTENANT HEALY: 1995 the23 regulations that we had for gun permits24 were ruled illegal because they25 34 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 contradicted what the state had.2 DEPUTY

That's3 the whole preemption argument. That's4 where it began.5 LIEUTENANT HEALY: And that's6 when our permits to carry skyrocketed, in7 1995.8

Yeah. And,9 Lieutenant, correct if I'm wrong,10 ironically I think that action actually11 started as a result of a similar action12 where the City of Philadelphia attempted13 to ban assault weapons --14 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Yes.15

-- and16 other issues as it relates to guns,17 weapons availability in the City, and the18 state legislation -- and, unfortunately,19 it was one of our local legislators who20 championed the cause --21 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Yes.22

-- actually23 basically backhanded us and say, You know24 what, you don't like the laws you have25 35 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 currently? They're going to get worse.2 And they basically opened up the3 floodgates in terms of being able to4 allow people to get permits to carry.5 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Well, not6 only did that, as a result of that, there7 was actually a specific provision put8 into the Uniform Firearms Act9 specifically stating that local10 municipalities cannot pass gun11 legislation and gun laws.12

Right. So13 as a result of that.14 LIEUTENANT HEALY: That Senator15 is no longer in Harrisburg.16

Yeah.17 We're aware of that.18 All right. Thank you. Thank19 you.20

Thank you21 very much, Lieutenant Healy.22 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Thank you,23 sir.24

Thank25 36 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you. Thank you.2 Are there any other questions3 from the Committee members of these4 witnesses?5 (No response.)6

Seeing7 none, thank you.8 DEPUTY

Thank9 you.10

Is there11 anyone else here to testify on this bill?12 (No response.)13

Seeing14 none, we will go into the public meeting15 to vote on Bill No. 100722 and then16 return to the public hearing to hear17 testimony on Resolution No. 100731.18 The Chair recognizes Councilman19 Clarke.20

Thank you,21 Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I move for the22 adoption of the amendment to Bill No.23 100722.24 (Duly seconded.)25 37 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

All those2 in favor signify by saying aye.3 (Aye.)4

Opposed?5 (No response.)6

Great.7 Councilman Clarke.8

Thank you,9 Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I make a10 motion that Bill No. 100722, as amended,11 be reported out of Committee with a12 favorable recommendation and a request13 for rules suspension as to allow reading14 at the next session of Council.15 (Duly seconded.)16

All those17 in favor?18 (Aye.)19

Opposed?20 (No response.)21

This bill22 has been properly moved and seconded and23 will be reported out of this Committee24 with a favorable recommendation and,25 38 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 further, that the rules of Council be2 suspended so as to permit first reading3 at our next session.4 Thank you.5

Thank you.6

We will7 now return to the public hearing to hear8 testimony on Resolution No. 100731.9 Will the Clerk please read the10 title of this resolution.11

Resolution 100731,12 resolution authorizing City Council's13 Committee on Public Safety to hold a14 public hearing to consider and evaluate15 the issues surfacing around the16 Philadelphia Police Department and the17 conduct of its officers.18

Okay.19 Thank you.20 (Witnesses approached witness21 table.)22

The23 purpose of this hearing is to look at24 proactive measures that will ensure25 39 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 cooperation among the community, our2 Police Department and government3 agencies.4 This is not a forum for bashing5 or hate. It is rather a place to6 understand what is going on, what we7 should or should not do, and hopefully8 learn ways to ensure that officers who do9 not respect the authority entrusted in10 them are reprimanded or removed, if11 necessary.12 It is true that what we are13 seeing and hearing regarding police14 corruption or abuse is very damaging to15 the credibility of the Police Department,16 but we must not allow this to destroy the17 bridge between the Philadelphia Police18 and the community.19 There are about 6,576 police20 officers. Like any profession, there are21 people who make bad decisions, be it22 erroneous or on purpose. Our mission23 here is to minimize, if not eradicate,24 those blatant wrongdoings or errors in25 40 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 decisions.2 This hearing will discuss the3 rights and responsibilities of the police4 and individuals who come in contact with.5 It is important to understand that people6 are not taught what they should or should7 not do when dealing with the police, and8 I hope that this hearing will clarify9 that.10 The Deputy Mayor of Public11 Safety, the Police Commissioner, the12 Police Advisory Commission, just to name13 a few, will be given an opportunity to14 explain how police misconduct is15 addressed, the importance of community16 involvement and the different methods for17 filing a grievance. This will also18 explain that although it seems misconduct19 is on the rise, it is not.20 Practical measures must be21 taken immediately to ensure that everyone22 works together to help put an end to the23 growth of these problems and demonstrate24 a real response to the public's concerns.25 41 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I must emphasize that the only2 way to reprimand or remove officers who3 act inappropriately is with the help from4 the community.5 It was not long ago when the6 District Attorney was urging the public7 to avoid playing into the "Don't Snitch"8 campaign, because killers were walking9 the streets out of reach from the10 criminal system. That is similar for11 police misconduct. Unless it is reported12 and those involved come forward and13 following the complaint to the end,14 nothing can be done to reprimand or15 remove.16 Please understand that an17 anonymous complaint can only go so far.18 Both good and bad police officers have19 rights and due process that must be20 followed.21 I hope that after this hearing,22 our citizens will know what their rights23 are, what is proper behavior and, most of24 all, if they're involved in misconduct,25 42 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 how to report and follow through so that2 justice prevails.3 I want to emphasize that this4 is not a forum for bashing the Police5 Department. It is important to hear6 everyone's issues and hopefully to hear7 ideas for improvement and ways that we8 can make the Police Department better and9 ways to make our citizens and visitors10 feel both safe and comfortable.11 I want to emphasize that12 neither the Police Commissioner nor the13 Deputy Mayor for Public Safety can14 comment on current investigations. So15 this hearing will not be the venue to16 discuss current matters under17 investigation.18 Everyone will be given an19 opportunity to speak. So I expect that20 when a witness is speaking, everyone will21 be respectful and wait for their turn to22 speak.23 This is an important issue, and24 there are many people here who wish to25 43 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 testify. So we have to set a time limit,2 and that time limit is three minutes per3 individual testifying.4 Thank you. Councilman Jones,5 do you want --6

Thank you.7 First of all, Madam Chair, I want to8 thank you for calling forth this9 resolution on this urgent matter and10 paying attention to an issue that has11 come before this body.12 One of the things as a freshman13 Councilperson I had to come to grips with14 is that this body is not the law.15 Although we get an opportunity to author16 resolutions that become ordinances from17 time to time, we are not the law.18 I also know that the Police19 Department is not the law, but it is20 their job to enforce it, and it is a21 difficult day-to-day job.22 Judges aren't the law. All23 they do is interpret it. And what they24 interpret is the will of the people,25 44 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 birthed out of the Constitution, and all2 the law simply is is a set of rules and3 guides that govern us both, allowing us4 to co-exist, work, live and play5 collectively, peacefully.6 And that's what we want to look7 at today. We want to look at the rules,8 and we want to make sure, as the9 Chairperson said, that everyone10 understands those rules and that we all11 are governed by the same set of12 guidelines in our day-to-day life.13 So, again, I want to thank the14 Chairperson for this hearing, and we have15 an ambitious schedule and hopefully we'll16 get through it today.17 Thank you, Madam Chair.18

Thank19 you.20 Are there any other comments21 from Councilmembers?22 (No response.)23

With24 that, will the Clerk please read the25 45 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 first panel.2

Deputy Mayor3 Everett Gillison and Police Commissioner4 Charles Ramsey.5 (Witnesses approached witness6 table.)7 DEPUTY

Thank8 you very much. Good morning,9 Councilwoman Miller and members of the10 Public Safety Committee. My name is11 Everett Gillison. I am the Deputy Mayor12 for Public Safety. Seated with me is13 Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey and14 Deputy Commissioner Richard Ross. Thank15 you for the opportunity to appear before16 you today on behalf of the Nutter17 Administration to offer testimony18 concerning Resolution No. 1 Public safety is of paramount2 concern to this Administration. The3 Mayor has tasked the Police Commissioner4 with reducing crime in the City. 8 These results could not be achieved9 without the hard work and the dedication10 of the men and women of our Police11 Department. 18 The positive results of reducing crime19 are diminished if the public does not20 have faith in the integrity of its police21 officers. Good, honest, law-abiding22 people should not fear their police23 officers. 2 After all, who are the men and women of3 our Police Department? 6 We will absolutely not tolerate the7 misconduct of a few that threatens the8 good work of the vast majority of our9 police officers. This Administration10 will continue to identify, investigate11 and remove the corrupt minority from the12 ranks of the Philadelphia Police13 Department. And as you will hear from14 Commissioner Ramsey, we have implemented15 several reforms designed not only to16 identify and remove corrupt officers, but17 also to enhance the culture of integrity18 and professionalism throughout the entire19 Department. "3 Since that time, the Department has acted4 on steps laid out in that plan and has5 continued to add to their efforts. I6 have supported the Commissioner's efforts7 to increase the Department's front-line8 supervisory ranks since sufficient9 supervision is necessary to ensure10 accountability. The Department has11 promoted 70 sergeants and 30 lieutenants12 within the last year. Additionally, the13 Department has increased the number of14 investigators in the Internal Affairs15 Division. 18 I have supported the19 Commissioner's efforts to increase the20 professional caliber of recruits entering21 the Police Academy. 1 experience. 5 Our public needs to be aware6 that the fact that police work, while an7 honorable service to the community, is a8 dangerous occupation. Police officers9 are oftentimes called upon to place10 themselves in harm's way answering11 emergency calls. Even the most casual12 encounters can erupt into violence in an13 instant. The simple truth is that14 despite their training, equipment and15 modern communications technology,16 oftentimes police officers don't know17 what situation they will be walking into18 or who they will be confronting. 1 members of the public. Likewise, members2 of the public, as our partners in keeping3 the City safe, have certain4 responsibilities when interacting with5 police officers. Members of the public6 who are approached by police officers7 should speak with the officer in a8 courteous and polite manner. They should9 not escalate an already tense situation10 by becoming angry, loud and11 argumentative. 17 Not to be overly simplistic,18 but many of these unfortunate encounters19 can be avoided if civilians and officers20 remember the golden rule: Treat others21 as you would like to be treated. It is22 important that everyone be mindful of23 these rules. 1 Youth Commission in conducting training2 for our young people on their3 responsibilities when interacting with4 police officers. The first in what is5 hoped to be a series of training sessions6 will take place on Wednesday, December7 15th at the Global Leadership Academy,8 5151 Warren Street. 19

Thank20 you, Mr. 1 members of City Council, the2 Administration and the public who are in3 attendance today. 8 This has been a very9 challenging time for the Philadelphia10 Police Department. Nothing can tarnish11 the reputation, the image and the morale12 of the Department so quickly as police13 misconduct and corruption. There are14 more than 6,500 sworn members of this15 Department, making it the fourth largest16 in the United States. 3 In the first week of August4 this year, we released a plan that was5 systemic in scope and involved all6 aspects of prevention, training,7 education, intervention and8 investigation. Deputy Commissioner9 Patricia Giorgio-Fox has been charged10 with implementing many of these reforms11 as she spearheads our Office of12 Organizational Accountability. 16 As outlined in our report, we17 have added 38 people to the Office of18 Professional Responsibility, in which the19 Internal Affairs Bureau is housed. They20 are currently at full staffing, and it's21 my expectation that they will deliver the22 results of investigations in a more23 timely manner. 1 Attorney's Office in a joint task force2 whose mission specifically is to3 investigate police misconduct and4 corruption. 9 We have created several new10 reporting mechanisms to increase the11 access and the ease with which people may12 report misconduct. That includes a13 hotline number linked directly to the14 Commissioner's Office, 215-686-3009, and15 an internal form for PPD personnel who16 wish to report misconduct. 21 It is our hope that complainants who feel22 uncomfortable reporting in person will23 use this application. 1 for those who wish to provide feedback or2 report misconduct without being contacted3 by the Department. 7 The Department has partnered8 with the NAACP in holding six police9 division-wide community meetings10 specifically to address the issue of11 police misconduct, its impact on the12 community and how to file a complaint13 against police. Members of the public14 can speak to personnel from the Internal15 Affairs Bureau and appointees from the16 Police Advisory Commission. 2 I have personally had many3 meetings with minority community groups4 and neighborhood organizations so that I5 could respond to their questions and keep6 them apprised of the Department's7 efforts. This past October we also held8 police and community forums in each9 police district in which members of the10 public shared their concerns, ranging11 from crime and disorder to police12 misconduct. We had personnel from13 Internal Affairs, the police clergy and14 the Police Advisory Commission available15 at every meeting. 7 We have also requested that8 adjustments to our recruitment hiring9 standards be approved by the Civil10 Service Commission so that we may attract11 a higher caliber of applicant. 0. 1 can provide in-depth training and2 education. 7 Our overall goal is to prevent criminal8 misconduct from occurring in the first9 place. 11 The Department has developed an12 ethics training program for all of our13 members in which they role play and14 cultivate the two major components of15 good judgment, critical thinking and16 self-awareness. 1 training materials and communications to2 our personnel on a continual basis. This3 is not a one-time communications4 campaign. 8 In conclusion, this is only the9 first step as we move toward integrating10 training, education and a values-driven11 culture into every facet of the12 Department. I personally have been and13 will be involved in addressing all sworn14 members throughout the upcoming year. 22 The message is simple and23 powerful: Integrity starts with you. 2 Their silence slowly but deliberately3 erodes the legitimacy of this Police4 Department. I asked the most recent5 recruit class that graduated, What kind6 of legacy do you want to leave in this7 Department? What would you like people8 to say about you when you retire?

11 It doesn't matter how many12 years a member is in this Department,13 whether two or 32. Police officers build14 their reputation one decision at a time,15 and they have the power to choose how16 they will be remembered. 21 Times of difficulty can often22 signify a much deeper call to action. 1 upholding the constitutional rights for2 all people. I have always felt that the3 metaphor of a police being a "thin blue4 line" is inadequate and that true5 community policing does not define police6 officers as a line, thin, blue or7 otherwise. We're not now, nor should we8 ever be, something that divides and9 separates our communities. Rather, I'd10 like to think of the police as a thread,11 one that is woven throughout the12 communities we serve. This is how we13 will bridge the relationship between the14 police and community that has been15 damaged. 9

Okay.10 I'm going to right now call on Councilman11 Jones.12

First of13 all, thank you for your testimony and14 thank you for being here today. Early on15 in this process when this issue started16 to perk up and get the attention of City17 Council, we reached out to other18 municipalities. You'll hear from some of19 them today. We reached out to a City20 Council person, Ms. Foster, in New York,21 who you know about, who had similar22 issues with aggressive policing, stop and23 frisk. 4 The idea of reaching out to5 them was some lessons learned, things we6 could take from it, in an effort to try7 to avoid some of the things they went8 through, and one of the things that they9 mentioned was the willingness of an10 administration to come and face the music11 and talk about it openly as opposed to12 saying it doesn't exist or not13 acknowledging that there may indeed be a14 problem. 17 And to that end, in your18 testimony you covered some of the things19 that if we were to use a before and after20 scenario, that before the incident and21 before this resolution was introduced,22 what are some of the different changes,23 maybe lessons learned, that you're24 implementing, in a succinct manner? 4 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well,5 training and education, we're placing a6 lot of emphasis on developing the kind of7 skills necessary to de-escalate8 situations, how to talk to people9 appropriately. You know, when we listen10 to a lot of our complaints, it's not so11 much the stop that was made. 15 We have to do a better job at16 training and reinforcing the fact that a17 situation may start off a little rocky,18 because it could be any kind of call. It19 could be a person with a gun, it could be20 whatever. 4 So a lot of the training, when5 we talk about ethics training and when we6 talk about the in-service that's going on7 now and it being scenario-driven, just8 like we go through training now for in9 firearms instruction, for an example, and10 we use the range -- they call it a FATS11 machine or a Range 2000. They're two12 different models. But it's a shoot/don't13 shoot scenario. I want the same kind of14 scenarios where you have to de-escalate15 verbally. 17 It's about talking to people, so putting18 officers in situations where they have to19 use their heads, they have to think, they20 have to take a deep breath and step back21 in order to de-escalate a situation. 1 We also have increased the2 number of personnel in Internal Affairs3 so we can be far more proactive. We can4 complete investigations in a more timely5 fashion. We're making complaint forms6 far more accessible to people other than7 just going into the same station, which8 obviously creates an issue for a lot of9 people. 12 But I want to be very13 aggressive in providing the training we14 need in order to prevent these things15 from happening to begin with. The goal16 isn't to dismiss people. The goal isn't17 to punish people. 19

Let me just20 take a step back and say, before what21 were the qualifications of a police22 officer for acceptance into the Academy?23 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: High24 school or GED, 19 years of age.25 67 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

And now they2 are?3 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I4 don't think it's been approved officially5 yet by the Civil Service Commission, but6 we're asking that the age be raised to 217 years of age, that there be three years8 of driving experience. And that may seem9 kind of strange to throw that in there,10 but we actually because some of the11 people coming on the job are so young,12 they've never driven a car before, and13 then you give them a Crown Vic and tell14 them to go on a Code assignment.15 Obviously bad things can happen from that16 combination.17 Sixty semester hours of college18 or an Associate's Degree. Again, New19 York City, Chicago, my old department,20 Washington, DC, there are many, many21 departments in this country that have22 gone to two- or four-year requirements.23 Again, it shows a level of maturity. It24 also -- because of the fact that you've25 68 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 had to complete some college, your2 ability to read, to write, to comprehend,3 all those things we have a different4 comfort level.5 We had abandoned the polygraph6 at one point in time. I'm seeking to7 bring that back. I think that's part of8 background that we should not ignore.9 But we need to do more thorough10 background checks than we do right now,11 and a lot of that has to do with dealing12 with the character of the individual,13 having people go out and talk to14 neighbors, talk to teachers, talk to15 people that they've interacted with to16 find out the kind of person it is that17 we're bringing on board and will have18 with us for the next 20, 30 years.19

In your20 training process, to what degree do we21 have geographic knowledge of22 neighborhoods? Meaning there's a23 difference in psychology and location of24 Washington Avenue and Washington Lane.25 69 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 To what degree does an officer have to2 know the neighborhood that they serve?3 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well,4 right now what we're attempting to do --5 let me go back. Previously when you6 finish the Academy, you get an7 assignment, you show up and you're there.8 And in many instances, even though you're9 a Philadelphia resident, because this is10 such a large city, you can grow up in one11 part of the City and know virtually12 nothing about another part of the City,13 yet that's where you're assigned. So you14 don't know streets, you don't know the15 neighborhoods, you don't necessarily16 understand the culture of the people that17 you're interacting with.18 One of the things that we've19 started doing with the recruits that come20 out, one, they need an orientation. So21 if they go to a district, they can meet22 with community, they can meet with people23 that have been there for a while to kind24 of talk about some of those issues. We25 70 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 also start them off on foot patrol, where2 we've put them out on beats and get to3 know in an up-close-and-personal way4 people in that neighborhood. And all the5 recruits that come out now, they start on6 foot patrol. They do not get in a car.7

Now, this8 is --9 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Now.10 This is currently now. In fact, the11 last, what, three classes, four classes12 we've had, it's the way we've started13 them out.14 I've been around for a while.15 I'm what some people consider to be old16 school in a lot of ways, but I'm a17 proponent of foot patrol and getting to18 know neighborhoods. I think you have to.19 You can't have community policing without20 it.21 We've also reorganized our22 department into police service areas23 where we have a lieutenant in charge with24 sergeants and officers. The goal there25 71 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 is to have the same officers assigned to2 the same area on a daily basis, again, to3 get familiar with the community.4 You're never going to have a5 situation where the officers are all from6 the area that they're patrolling. That's7 just not going to happen. But there's no8 reason why people cannot become familiar9 with that area and cannot provide quality10 service.11

If I may,12 I'm going to shift a little bit. I just13 wanted to get those things on the record.14 Can you define -- and this is15 for the entire panel -- what is stop and16 frisk?17 DEPUTY

Stop18 and frisk is a police tactic that was19 started out of Terry versus Ohio back in20 1968. It actually predates that, because21 Terry was the culmination and actually22 gave a legal justification to the police.23 It basically says that when a police24 officer believes that there is criminal25 72 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 activity afoot, he can -- and based on2 reasonable suspicion, he can stop and3 actually frisk for his own protection,4 his or her protection, to make sure the5 person is not armed and/or dangerous.6

And that is7 a pre-existing policy and/or procedure8 that is in writing somewhere?9 DEPUTY

It's10 not a policy. It is a legal way of11 talking about how an encounter, something12 that is -- a police officer can walk up13 to somebody and encounter them. I can --14 a question or anything else. A person15 does not lose their right of being a16 human being because they're a police17 officer. As a matter of fact, they18 become a little bit more sensitive to19 what's going on.20 You walk up to a person, that's21 an encounter. But if you decide after22 encounter -- if the police officer, based23 on training or based on some particular24 feeling that they have, that the25 73 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 environment seems to indicate that the2 individual is acting in a particular3 manner, they are trained, if they are4 being furtive with their hands, if5 they're jittery, if there's something6 going on that the officer believes is7 placing his or her safety at risk or if8 they believe that a crime is being9 committed, they can stop the person, they10 can frisk them for the officer's11 protection and be able to look for and12 obviously look for weapons. And that is13 the pat down. So that is a frisk. A14 frisk is a pat down.15 Encounters are not stop and16 frisk. Encounters are encounters. A17 police officer can walk up, talk to you,18 say hello, question you, do whatever.19 That is an encounter. That is not a stop20 and frisk. Those stop and frisk matters21 really are not as -- they don't happen as22 much as people kind of think they do.23 There are many encounters, and we have24 actually upped the encounters between25 74 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 police officers and the citizenry, but2 the stop and frisk aspect or does the3 officer have reasonable suspicion to4 believe a crime is occurring or that5 there is a weapon that challenges their6 own safety, those encounters, those7 matters are things that an officer does8 with their training.9

Let's use10 the term "encounter," and I would imagine11 encounter happens before stop and frisk?12 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:13 Correct.14

Is there15 written guidelines by which an encounter16 escalates to something else, in writing?17 And I specifically -- this is not one of18 those -- I'm not trying to do this as a19 court of law and entrap anyone. I just20 want to understand and I just want the21 public to understand. Is there a22 written -- is this someplace in some code23 where we know, or in some training24 manual, where we know that here are the25 75 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 rules of engagement, I see a young person2 on the street corner and here's how I3 have to approach them, and then here are4 the series of escalating factors that go5 to stop and frisk? Is that written6 anywhere?7 DEPUTY

That's8 part of training.9 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: It is10 part of training, and when officers come11 on the job and also we reemphasize12 through in-service training and roll call13 training what would constitute the14 reasonable suspicion that would be needed15 in order for an officer to conduct a16 stop. Now, we make out a form called a17 48-A whenever we do have a stop of an18 individual. And so we do keep track of19 that sort of thing. And the majority of20 the stops we make do not end in a frisk.21 So I'm glad you raised that22 issue, because people think every time23 you stop a person it results in a frisk.24 It doesn't.25 76 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 However, an officer does have a2 right to stop and, during the process of3 stopping and questioning a person with4 reasonable suspicion of criminal5 activity, to conduct a frisk, pat down6 for weapons only to make sure they're7 protected, to make sure that they're safe8 and secure.9 We also have a document called10 Legally Speaking that I started up maybe11 a year ago with the legal staff that I12 have in which we address a variety of13 issues. One of those issues was, of14 course, revisiting stop, question and15 frisk. So that people fully understand16 what it is, and there are even, I think,17 three or four scenarios in the most18 recent publication that outline19 situations in which it would be20 appropriate and in one situation it would21 not be appropriate, so that people,22 again, know and understand.23

I guess24 where I'm going with this -- and, listen,25 77 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I've been on both sides of the equation2 in the sense of having been stopped and3 been glad that an officer came to the4 scene. So I understand both sides of the5 equation in that respect, but what I'm6 getting to is that I don't think that7 there is a clear understanding -- and I8 know you can't type it up and have it so9 specific that I have to check the rule10 book before I proceed, but there needs to11 be a general understanding of what those12 progressive steps are, both on the parts13 of the officers, in my opinion, and also14 the citizenry, and I think to that end,15 you're trying to do some of the role play16 workshops, working with the Youth17 Commission and others to create some type18 of guideline so that people know.19 We had an opportunity to share20 some time, quality time, at some of those21 hearings out in the various districts,22 and one of the things that came up when23 citizens asked officers about what is the24 exact procedure and can you commit it to25 78 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 writing so that people know? And it's2 words like "courtesy" and "respectful"3 and things like that, which I understand,4 but does everyone have a clear common5 understanding definition of that and what6 those progressive steps are that a person7 who may be stopped understands? If I8 cross this line right here, there is a9 distinct probability that I'm going to10 get arrested because I've disrespected or11 violated some city code, and I don't know12 where those lines exist and I don't know13 if they are a question of judgment or a14 question of written procedure, and that's15 kind of where I'm trying to get to with16 this.17 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, let18 me respond in a couple ways. One,19 there's no way you could have any written20 procedures that would cover every21 possible circumstance that an officer22 might encounter on the street. I also23 think it's important to note that it's24 not necessarily a progression that takes25 79 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 place. It depends on the circumstances.2 You can get called to a scene, a man with3 a gun, a description at this corner. You4 pull up, there's a person matching that5 description on that corner. You're going6 to pat them down to make sure that they7 don't shoot you.8 So, I mean -- and as far as9 clarity goes, I don't think there's a10 lack of clarity as far as the police11 officers are concerned, but I grant you12 there's a lack of clarity probably among13 the community in terms of how this whole14 thing works. We spend a lot of time in15 training of police officers, an awful lot16 of time in training, and, again, officers17 have to articulate what that reasonable18 suspicion was. That's the point of the19 48-A. That's the point of some of the20 other documents that are made out. They21 have to be able to articulate why. And22 we do track that. So if there is someone23 who is still clueless out there, I'd like24 to know who they are so we could again25 80 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 bring them up to speed, but I've not seen2 that. I mean, I've been in policing --3 in fact, I actually -- my entry into4 policing was in 1968, and in three5 different departments, I've not run6 across a policeman that did not7 understand what a Terry stop involved.8

Well, with9 all due respect to your professionalism10 and my lack thereof of your job, which I11 could never do, and I acknowledge that12 for the record, I think there may be some13 nebulous nature to that understanding,14 because the number of instances where15 judgment is varying is wide, and one16 person's encounter is another person's I17 spent the night in jail. And if you --18 and I have not, but if you ask people who19 we will hear from, that discretion is20 what may be in question in the whole21 aggressive police posture. If I had a22 good day, it is this. If I'm having a23 bad day, it may be something else, and we24 have to be very clear as to where that25 81 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 line should be. And that is my opinion.2 It is not the rule and guide, but it is3 my opinion that there may be some4 question among some officers about where5 those lines are and where the word6 "courtesy" is. My courtesy is different7 than maybe yours. Use of a curse word is8 discretionary. And I'm saying that all9 of us are human beings, those people who10 suit up in the morning and make roll call11 and those people who get stopped12 sometimes in the process of you13 performing your duties.14 And so I think one of the areas15 we need to look at -- we may disagree a16 little bit -- is what those progressive17 steps are so that they're clear. And I18 can guarantee we agree that the public19 does not know. The public does not know.20 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:21 Councilman, if I could just add one22 thing. There's another way that this is23 always -- and since before 1968, but at24 least since 1964, if someone actually25 82 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 feels that they have been wronged,2 there's always remedies. You have a3 right, you have a remedy. That remedy4 may not be something, but in our country5 we have the right to go to court. If a6 person feels that there is something that7 they have not been treated correctly and8 especially in the criminal law, those9 matters can actually go to court and can10 be adjudicated by a judge and/or a jury.11 Most of these things are challenges and12 they would be a challenge to a judge, who13 would then look at the situation and see14 whether or not it was done correctly.15 So I would always just remind16 all of us that we do have a great place17 that we live in, America, and we can18 actually deal with these things in19 several different ways.20 What this Department has been21 doing, I think, has been to put out and22 to depend on training and to depend on23 making sure that we work together and to24 put community first and community25 83 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 policing, and that's what this2 Administration, that's what this Police3 Commissioner has been emphasizing. And I4 think that where we have breakdowns, we5 still make sure that we follow a set of6 rules and guidelines to investigate, to7 act on those things, to do it in a8 transparent way and to continually9 address it.10 So to your point that we don't11 hide behind it, we haven't. We don't12 hide behind anything.13

I agree with14 that.15 DEPUTY

And we16 go straight out and we -- and this17 Commissioner, with the full support that18 I can give and obviously the Mayor, go19 full out to say where we find things that20 are wrong, we act on it. That's why we21 need the cooperation of everybody. And22 the community policing means something to23 us. It is the fulcrum of how we will be24 able to get trust and to get our city to25 84 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 be the safe city that we want it to be.2 So I would --3

We agree.4 We agree. I applauded you guys in the5 beginning of this for stepping up.6 Let me ask a couple of7 questions. How many complaints have8 there been filed over the last three9 years about the process by which people10 have been stopped? How many complaints?11 DEPUTY

The12 exact number, I would ask you to defer to13 the other members, because obviously I14 have the Police Advisory Commission,15 which will be on another panel. That is16 one avenue that has come forward. The17 Internal Affairs matters are something18 that obviously complaints are subject19 right now of litigation and we can't go20 but so far --21

I don't need22 to know the specifics. I need to know23 the numbers.24 DEPUTY

But I25 85 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 believe that the numbers are rather2 hundreds rather than thousands. And I3 think that it is safe to say that even if4 it was hundreds and it may be the one --5 if you're in that one, it seems that it6 should not have occurred. But I will7 dare say that you're talking about8 hundreds of complaints probably as9 opposed to the thousands and thousands10 that have come forward.11

So should I12 defer the questions as it relates to the13 type and nature of the complaints to the14 Commission?15 DEPUTY

I would16 think that those would come through the17 Police Advisory Commission, are one. I18 don't know whether Internal Affairs has19 another way. I'll defer to the20 Commissioner.21 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I've got22 numbers of complaints, but I can't tie23 them all back into whether or not -- I24 think your question was whether or not we25 86 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 were related to a pedestrian or a vehicle2 stop. Or just in general?3

I'd like to4 know the number of complaints.5 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: In6 general, the number of complaints against7 police as of the 30th of November, 7258 complaints against police.9

Is that this10 year?11 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: And12 another -- yeah, this year. And another13 170 internal investigations.14 Last year we had 697 complaints15 against police and 145 internal16 investigations. But that's a year-end17 total. So I'd have to go back even18 further if you'd like to get more data.19

I don't need20 to do that at this time, but I think it21 would probably be helpful to provide the22 Chair. Since we declared stop and frisk23 a policy, even though I don't know24 where -- since '68 we've kind of25 87 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 ratcheted it up, but I'd like to look at2 the number of the trends, if it has3 increased or decreased over the last four4 years, and then the types of complaints.5 And I guess I can get that from the6 Commission. And disposition of those7 complaints.8 Thank you, Madam Chair.9

Thank10 you. Thank you, Councilman Jones.11 Just along those same lines, I12 actually wanted to know information based13 on the community meetings that you had, I14 believe, in October and what were the15 outcomes, what were the numbers, what's16 the data.17 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: The18 majority of them -- and I can19 certainly -- because I gave a summary of20 each of the meetings to the Deputy Mayor.21 The majority of the districts, the22 complaints were crime related. There23 were some that weren't. The 12th, the24 19th, there were complaints about police25 88 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 conduct and so forth. I can certainly2 get that to you, ma'am.3 We took each one individually4 and we summarized the complaints and the5 issues that came up during that. This6 covered everything from crime to7 misconduct. The majority that came were8 crime related, but we did have some very9 specific around police misconduct.10

Will the11 data include the next steps once12 someone --13 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I14 can do that, ma'am. That's under a15 separate document that we put out about16 the proactive steps we're taking to deal17 with the issues. Now, many of those18 complaints that we did get were already19 under investigation. Some were new we20 took and are now under investigation. It21 may have been completed. I can get you22 that information.23

Okay.24 I'm going to -- I have questions, but I'm25 89 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 going to call on Councilman Clarke.2

Thank you,3 Madam Chair.4 Good morning, Commissioner,5 Deputy.6 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Good7 morning.8

A number of9 the questions that I was going to ask10 have been already covered by my11 colleague, but I just want to make a12 brief statement. 1 African American who lives in North2 Philadelphia, I have occasion to not3 necessarily have on a suit when I'm out4 in the neighborhood. I have this little5 spot I hang out a lot during the course6 of the weekend up around 19th -- 17th and7 Cecil B. Moore. I know some of the guys8 from back in the day and just kind of9 hang out. And you just kind of get a10 sense, if I'm standing there dressed like11 this talking to some of the guys or if12 I'm standing there dressed with normal13 gear on, the first response as it relates14 to a police officer driving by, it's like15 night and day. 1 person's background has been like with2 respect to growing up, did the person3 have an incident in high school or4 throughout the period of life that has5 created certain sorts of feelings about6 individuals. 8 I'm standing there with a9 sweatshirt on, I get a look. I'm10 standing there with a suit on, I get a11 nod, and they don't necessarily recognize12 who I am. And my concern is that when we13 talk about recruitments -- and I don't14 know how much you can do, because I15 understand that we bring in significant16 numbers of police officers during the17 course of the terms of recruitment. We18 spoke earlier about background checks as19 it relates to Pennsylvania and the20 ability to do background checks on people21 who are getting permits to carry, unlike22 in Florida. 1 experiences were when they grew up in2 certain neighborhoods? I mean -- and we3 can be candid here. This gentleman and I4 are like extremely good friends, but when5 we were growing up, he lived south of6 Girard Avenue, I lived north of Girard7 Avenue. I couldn't go south of Girard8 Avenue, he couldn't go north of Girard9 Avenue. 14 I mean, there's those types of15 things that develop a person's mindset as16 it relates to how they carry out their17 life, and I'm just wondering, is there a18 way that we can get into the psyche of an19 individual so we can stop it at the early20 phases so a person just doesn't drive by21 in a car and look at somebody standing on22 the corner and immediately, because of23 the way that person is dressed, he's24 probably up to something, you know. 1 mean, that's just kind of -- then it goes2 from there, and it creates, as you said,3 stop and frisk. Because I do think stop4 and frisk has created a significant part5 of the problem, because I believe that6 the more interaction you have with7 individuals in the community, the8 likelihood that you're going to9 subsequently have some challenges as10 relating escalating as the tension11 between those individuals. 9 There is no one fail-safe way10 of doing it, and people do grow out of11 things, too. I mean, maybe at one point12 in time you couldn't cross a particular13 street for a variety of reasons, but you14 can cross it now and you don't have a15 problem with that. The two of you may16 not have been friends when you were 1717 years old, but you're friends now. 19 So I think we do the best we20 can to try the background, to try to make21 sure that we have people that have the22 right character to become police23 officers, the right temperament. 1 strengthen it, but I want to put a lot of2 emphasis on that, because I think it's3 important that we get the right people in4 the Department to begin with. I think by5 and large we do that, but then we have6 some that obviously there are some7 issues. 11

Thank you.12 Commissioner, with respect to -- and13 you've referenced this. As it relates to14 an individual's ability to make a15 complaint -- and I'm speaking mostly from16 experiences that I've had over the last17 year or so. As an example, another18 friend of mine who lives up in North19 Philadelphia, he gets stopped on his20 block. He's actually a guy you probably21 know. He's like Mr. Neighborhood guy,22 does the basketball league. I mean,23 everybody knows him. He's a good guy.24 But that night he gets stopped. He's in25 96 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 his truck and police pull him over, and2 it starts out with the MF's and all of3 the language, and he's like, frankly4 speaking, kind of blown away. He said,5 I'm one of the good guys. And they tear6 his truck, they pull the panels off the7 interior of his truck looking for drugs8 and guns, and it just escalates and9 escalates and gets to the point where10 it's ridiculous.11 He calls me later on, tells me12 what happened. I said, Well, you got to13 go make a complaint. He goes to make a14 complaint and he's immediately15 discouraged. And I believe this guy,16 because I've know him 25 years. He has17 no reason to lie. He's discouraged in18 terms of making a complaint, and the19 person there wants to know why do you20 want to make a complaint? Well, talk to21 me about it, and then it goes on and on,22 and eventually he has to give them the23 form to put the complaint in. And,24 fortunately, he knew me. I called the25 97 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 commander. The commander deals with it2 swiftly. I got to tell you, dealt with3 it internally, identified the4 individuals, and that won't ever happen5 again.6 Can you be a little more7 specific -- and I know you referenced in8 terms of being able to make those9 complaints without feeling any level of10 intimidation, feeling very accommodating11 in terms of being able to make that12 complaint, because people that aren't13 used to dealing with police stations, it14 can be very intimidating. Can you talk15 to me a little more in detail how we can16 enhance that?17 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I think18 something that I've always thought was an19 issue or a problem is when we tell people20 that if you have a problem, go to the21 district that it occurred in and make a22 complaint. I mean, it's not really23 logical to think that most people are24 going to do that, number one, and that25 98 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you're not going to have some issues. So2 we need to make it a lot easier.3 You can do it online now. We4 have a form that just went live recently5 that allows you to make the complaint.6 City facilities, in the meeting I had7 with Councilmember Jones recently --8

Excuse me,9 Commissioner. You said what? City10 facilities?11 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: City12 buildings and facilities. We'll make13 forms available for people. I want to14 make forms available in your offices so15 that if people come to you, you can give16 it to them right there.17 We want to make it as easy as18 possible for people to file a complaint,19 and then we need to be able to20 investigate it. Not every complaint is21 valid, but we need to investigate it.22 People need to know that we listen, we23 pay attention, we take it seriously. And24 that's very, very important to me, and25 99 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you can't do it -- and we'll continue to2 have forms available at district3 stations, and obviously reinforce the4 fact that if someone comes in to make a5 complaint, they should be able to get a6 form, they should be able to talk to a7 supervisor, they should be able to do all8 those things, but realistically I9 understand the reluctance of people to do10 that, so we need to make it available in11 settings other than just a district12 police facility.13 I have a hotline. That hotline14 rings in my office. The 3009 number, the15 686-3009, that's right in my office, and16 we listen to it every single day, and we17 refer any information. You've got the18 Police Advisory Commission that will be19 coming up shortly, and certainly that's20 an avenue for people to be able to file21 complaints. And we track these. They do22 have tracking numbers. So we track them23 to make sure that we have it and that we24 need to be able to provide feedback to25 100 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 people that have outstanding complaints2 so that they know exactly what's taking3 place.4 DEPUTY

Also,5 Councilman, if I can add to that, we have6 been opening up the other avenues, Town7 Watch, the PDACs, the police districts.8 And in addition, people call my office9 and make the same type of complaints, and10 I, of course, try and push things through11 electronically, trying to be green,12 making sure that we have an immediate13 complaint number that is both filed and14 followed up on.15 You can call 311 and get the16 same kind of things done. We are trying17 to be as open and as -- to deal with the18 issue of where do I go. I always call it19 you have five different areas that if you20 just think about those things, yes, you21 can go to Internal Affairs; yes, you can22 go to the Town Watch; yes, you can do the23 PDACs; yes, you can do the Police24 Advisory Commission; and, yes, you can go25 101 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to Council. Quite frankly, I have heard2 from significant numbers of you, both on3 the phone at different times reporting4 something, and my office takes a look at5 it as well.6 So between the partnership that7 we have and our roles, I think that there8 are a lot of different ways for people to9 feel that not only will they get an10 answer, but there is a way for it to be11 lodged somewhere, answered and responded12 to. And I think that our ability to have13 put more resources in this area, quite14 frankly, will help with the speed that15 these things will be brought together and16 something will happen. Not just you made17 a complaint, you never hear about it, but18 now we have additional resources that19 will get those complaints handled and get20 something back out so that you can have21 it and you can be reported on that as22 well.23 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:24 Councilman Rizzo.25 102 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Thank you.2 Are you done?3

No, I'm not4 done.5

Let him6 finish.7

Thank you,8 Councilman.9 Thank you. You referenced10 certain changes that you're working on.11 Can you through the Chair just give us a12 list of some of the recommendations and13 the timeline in terms of the possible14 implementation of some of those things?15 DEPUTY MAYOR GILLISON:16 Absolutely.17

It's very18 helpful. And then real briefly -- and19 I'll probably come back later -- I'm a20 true believer of police-community21 relations. I think because at the end of22 the day, I think that if you deal with23 the problem on the front side, we don't24 have to deal with it on the back side and25 103 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 some of the challenges that we experience2 in the newspaper about citizens being3 abused, police officers being arrested.4 I think that if we can create a better5 environment early on as it relates to6 police officers and individuals, I think7 that that will eliminate a significant8 amount of the negatives associated with9 some of the back side.10 The PSA -- and I see Deputy11 Mayor Gillison smiling -- is something12 that was implemented up in the13 neighborhood up in a part of my district.14 I know you're probably doing it15 throughout the City. It is something16 that has, frankly speaking, been somewhat17 successful. I talked to Officer Williams18 last night. I actually saw him at my19 holiday function, and I think that if we20 put more resources in those type of21 activities, frankly speaking, that it22 will create a better environment so we23 don't find ourselves sitting in the City24 Council Chambers having citizens feel25 104 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that they need to come down here in 202 degree weather to talk about some of the3 levels of abuse that they've experienced.4 I mean, we shouldn't be in this position5 in 2010.6 We understand that there's7 always going to be problems, but too8 often, not just in this case, but I think9 that we spend so much money on the back10 side and the criminal justice system and11 spending on, what is it, like $20,000 a12 year, higher than that, $40,000 a year to13 keep a person incarcerated as opposed to14 spending $15,000 a year to send them to15 Temple University to get adequately16 educated. And we talk about those17 things, but I don't ever think that we18 make the final decision to say, You know19 what, we're going to just change this20 approach dramatically and we're going to21 put that money on the front side.22 Is there the possibility -- and23 I say this as we're coming up close to24 our budget process -- that some of the25 105 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 resources; i.e., budget related, can be2 focused on the front side of this,3 creating the PSAs or creating these type4 of programs that will benefit our5 citizens on the front side, subsequently6 improving the relationships between the7 police and the local residents in the8 City of Philadelphia so we can minimize9 the negatives associated with some of the10 back side?11 DEPUTY

Well,12 Councilman, absolutely. I think that13 what you have been able to enjoy, I14 think, is the way that we've been trying15 to change that relationship and the PSA16 model that the Police Commissioner17 started with the police service areas and18 now we've expanded it and we have a19 couple of pilot programs. Your district20 was the first, was one of the first21 areas, that we had chose a small22 geographic area to change the23 relationship between the police and the24 citizens, and to go in and listen to the25 106 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 citizens and have them drive, what I2 call, they drive the bus. What they3 think that they need in their communities4 is how the City is responding. And we5 are up to now four pilots, I believe it6 is, where we are trying to look at7 different areas so we get this right.8 Because you can't just throw a whole lot9 of resources in without having models10 that you know will work. So we have over11 the last year expanded it.12 The Police Commissioner has13 been just way out in front on trying to14 make sure that the officers in that15 district understand and in that pilot16 area, how it's different, how this17 community policing model is different18 than any others that have been going on19 in other areas and how they're responding20 to the uniqueness that is Philadelphia,21 quite frankly. Because some things that22 work in your district may not work in23 Councilman Jones' district, which is24 where our second pilot is right now. And25 107 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 we're learning how to do those things and2 listening to the community groups in3 those areas, and that will be how we will4 go forward and what resources I will have5 to provide on behalf of the City to make6 sure that we can pull these things and7 keep them going so that we're not just8 doing program change, we're doing culture9 change. I mean, that's really the10 emphasis. And the Police Commissioner11 has provided quite a bit -- obviously12 just great leadership in going forward.13 I've been working with various14 Councilpeople who we've chosen different15 areas to pilot and to get those -- change16 the cultures in those smaller PSA areas,17 and you're going to hear more and more18 about it, because we're getting the data19 now as to how the community has responded20 in a positive way to the community21 policing efforts that we're using because22 we are changing culture.23 So the answer is yes. I'm a24 big proponent. Quite frankly, I spent 3025 108 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 years trying to make sure that people2 understood that if you put the money on3 the front end, on the back end you'll4 have to spend less. And we have made5 those investments. We've done it in a6 small area, because we didn't want to7 just go out and say let's try and change8 something and just have it fail. This is9 a long-term matter. It will take years10 to make sure that we get this right for11 each community, but we wanted to make12 sure that we're doing it right.13 Between your district and, I14 believe it's, Councilwoman15 Quinones-Sanchez's district was the first16 area where it started. It came as a17 result of these two gentlemen sitting18 next to me identifying what the police19 needed and how we needed to turn it20 around. And now after a year -- we're21 coming up on a year anniversary -- we're22 now putting it into three other areas to23 see if those districts, with their unique24 challenges, can be met and how that would25 109 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 change the delivery of services to those2 as well. But that's what we're doing,3 and that's what we're emphasizing. And I4 wholeheartedly agree with you that that's5 what the future is and where we're going.6

Thank you.7 COUNCILWOMAN MILLER:8 Councilman Rizzo.9

10 I'm going to start off with11 something that was said, I think, by my12 colleague Councilman Jones, the word13 "courtesy," but, Commissioner, what I14 want to ask you about is what it's like15 to be a police officer. I know a lot of16 young men and women before they were17 police officers, today they're different18 people because of what they've19 experienced on the street. Their20 opinions changed. 1 some cases every day of their lives, the2 worst conditions a person can see? 9 What do we do to kind of work10 with them? 14 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I15 agree with you, Councilman, and you raise16 a good point. There are a couple things17 that I'd like to say here. 22 There are more decent, law-abiding23 citizens living in the roughest24 neighborhood than criminals. 7 Now, the psychological8 well-being of our officers is pretty much9 what you're getting at, and I think it's10 very important. We certainly have always11 had an employee assistance program, but12 one thing that came about from the string13 of tragedies we had back in 2008 when we14 had five officers killed in the line of15 duty, we formed a partnership with Penn16 Behavioral Health to provide better17 services to officers, because my concern18 was that the trauma associated with19 having so many losses in such a short20 period of time certainly would have a21 negative impact on officers as they get22 out there every single day. 17 So I'm very concerned about18 that issue, but we do have a very strong19 partnership with Penn Behavioral Health,20 one of the premier behavioral health21 schools in the country, to help us better22 work with our officers, whether it's23 group sessions or whatever it is that24 needs to happen. 5 COUNCILMAN RIZZO:6 Commissioner, I want to go back. I7 walked through the City of New York this8 weekend and I noticed on the side of the9 police car that "courtesy" was written on10 the side. And I think that people, the11 average person that doesn't have a lot of12 contact, don't have a lot of contact with13 police officers, don't understand. 16 An example, someone, a young17 woman, a young man goes through a red18 light. Two-officer car, one officer gets19 out, the other stands behind the recorder20 on the other side of the car. 22 A person at the scene of a23 police action are sometimes talked to in24 a way where, Get away, get back. 1 understand that it's the way officers are2 trained and sometimes you can't be3 Mr. Personality or Ms. Personality at the4 scene when a lot of stuff is going on,5 but I do think that there is a way that6 when a person does go through a red7 light, that the approach could be a8 little different. I don't necessarily9 know that approach, but I can tell you,10 I've talked to a lot of people in11 preparation for this hearing. I asked a12 couple people -- I had to ask a question,13 What would be the question to ask the14 Police Commissioner or the Deputy Mayor,15 and I was told by more than just one16 person, The way police officers and the17 public communicate. That, in fact,18 rather than an officer saying, Hey,19 please, could you get behind the yellow20 tape, you can't be here. I mean, just21 ripping them up and telling them that22 they're not supposed to be here. 1 after you're out there so long, you2 forget to be polite, I think. I don't3 know that. But when I saw the word4 "courtesy," knowing this hearing was5 today, on the side of the New York police6 car, I said in many police departments,7 courtesy isn't always up front. And I8 guess it's tough to come across in a way9 that you would like them to come across,10 but I think you know what I mean. People11 sometimes get curious. They come out of12 their homes, they get to a scene of a13 crime in progress and the officer is14 trying to keep them safe, or a building15 might blow up on them. 14 You know, it's a difficult15 situation and it's kind of like running16 hot or running cold.

17 People that have heavily tinted windows,18 you can't see inside, could be the best19 person in the world, but when you're20 approaching that car, you don't know21 that. And, yeah, if it's a two-person22 car, one is going to be out of the car on23 the passenger side. 3 Courtesy, respect, there's no4 need to use profanity toward people,5 things of that nature. I mean, even6 though the individual that you're7 speaking with may be using it toward you,8 someone has to be the adult in the group9 and calm things down best they can. 13 I think it's important that we14 keep this in context. We've got a lot of15 issues in our communities, and there are16 a lot of places where the streets are not17 very safe. 19 We've had 290 murders. 1 situations, and I don't want to leave2 this as if it's all the police creating3 issues out there, because we all know4 it's not true. Some of our neighborhoods5 are impacted by crime far more than6 others. 12 There's issues when you talk13 about the street stops. 22 The bottom line is, there's no excuse for23 not being respectful toward another24 individual at all. 1 and do so in a professional way, and2 that's what we're striving for. That3 doesn't mean we're going to get down to4 zero complaints. 7 I recognize that we have a8 problem in our department right now in9 the way in which we're interacting with10 the public, and that's got to stop. We11 are not against one another. We have to12 work together to get at those individuals13 who are out here causing harm in our14 community. We can only do that in15 partnership, and it's imperative that we16 have strong relationships. That's why17 the PSAs, that's why the same officers18 working the same area every day, that's19 why we're trying to improve our20 recruitment and hiring, so we bring on21 board the right folks, that's why the22 in-service training for the veterans that23 are already there. 5 So I think we got to just6 maintain a balance. I'm committed to7 doing everything humanly possible and so8 is Deputy Ross and the Deputy Mayor and9 everybody that's here today to make sure10 that we move from a good department to a11 great department. 14 COUNCILMAN RIZZO:15 Commissioner, thank you very much, and,16 again, like you started off the17 conversation, the majority of our men and18 women do just such a great job, and this19 place would be in chaos without you guys20 for one day. 5

Thank you,6 Madam Chair.7

Thank8 you. You know, it is true, we could9 not -- this city could not function10 without a police department. We're just11 trying to figure out how we can work12 together and keep us moving. And we've13 all said it, we all know it,14 communication is the important key here.15 Many, many incidents start as a result of16 just the officer and a citizen17 communicating.18 So, therefore, do you do19 customer service type of training,20 reinforce it, and if you do it, how often21 and can you change and do it more often?22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS:23 Well, I mean, Councilwoman, a lot of that24 starts with, again, what the Commissioner25 122 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 talked about, the training that we2 incorporate from the Academy forward.3 One of the reasons -- and I don't want to4 overstate it enough, the foot beats and5 how we try to get some of these young6 officers so that they are out there out7 of that vehicle so that they get to know8 who the good people are versus the bad9 people standing on the corner. And a lot10 of times understanding that, that will11 make the difference between people12 feeling better about the police in short.13 I mean, look, we all know -- I14 mean, the Commissioner talks about it all15 the time, recognizing the difference16 between the basketball team and the17 gang-banger on the corner, and we know18 that that goes a long way towards19 improving police-community relations.20 We stress over and over,21 because I get calls from you, I get calls22 from Councilman, everybody up there,23 about issues that happen in our24 community, and when we get them, we deal25 123 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 with them very seriously.2 In terms of community service,3 I mean, maybe not in the sense that you4 know Wawa will be talking about, but we5 talk about these things each and every6 day, because you can't stress enough the7 importance of understanding that you8 serve the community where you came from9 and understanding that you want somebody10 to patrol in the area the same way you11 would patrol your mother's area or you12 would want that area patrolled. I mean,13 it's just something you just have to14 constantly reinforce. You can't say it15 enough.16 And I would just say to17 Councilman Rizzo's issue, I mean, there18 are police officers out there with 35, 4019 years on that don't know how to do20 anything but be courteous, irrespective21 of what they've seen, because they22 understand the importance of treating23 people right, treating people the way24 you're supposed to be treated.25 124 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 We start from the Academy.2 PSAs, again, I want to talk about that,3 because it's very important. The4 Commissioner brought this to town. This5 whole concept talks about connecting with6 the community, community service at its7 best, and it gets beneath what you folks8 were typically used to dealing with, even9 myself, where that stopped at the10 captain. Now you're talking about a11 lieutenant and a sergeant having to take12 on that charge just like the captain did,13 holding those meetings just like a14 captain would. And not only that, team15 building from the standpoint of police16 officers being a part of that17 problem-solving, which I think is18 critical. I mean, because once that19 police officer recognizes that I'm as20 much a part of solving the problems in21 the community that I police, they see the22 people there differently, and I think23 that goes a long way.24

Well, I25 125 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 also think the PSA model is good and it2 does give people an opportunity to get to3 know other officers at the station other4 than the captain and the -- I think it's,5 what is it, the administrative officer?6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS:7 Correct.8

So it's9 really good. I mean, I've been to some10 of those meetings and now I do know other11 sergeants and things like that, and it's12 really great.13 What happens, though, if you14 get the same complaint against the same15 officer over and over again? What16 actually happens? And what is the17 internal, whatever you call it, internal18 investigation process?19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS:20 Well, there is a review process that21 Internal Affairs undertakes whereby it's22 almost a flagging system where when an23 officer gets X number of complaints, the24 Internal Affairs Bureau then calls up25 126 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 their commanding officer, and they sit2 down, that commanding officer along with3 their supervisor, and they discuss4 problems that are inherent in that5 officer's background, the complaints that6 are constantly coming up. But there's7 some new things that we'll be doing, the8 Commissioner is putting in place, with9 regard to exactly what you're talking10 about in terms of going beyond that11 scope, making certain that inspectors,12 for example, are involved. So let me13 give a real-life example.14 If you get Officer Ross who15 constantly gets verbal abuse complaints,16 maybe it's on traffic stops, and after17 the second or third one, Officer Ross now18 has to go beyond the scope of just19 dealing with his captain or his20 lieutenant and has to sit before his21 inspector. Now, your inspector has to22 deal with this issue. The officer has to23 deal with someone who he typically does24 not deal with in the inspector and25 127 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 recognize instantly that I'd better get2 my act together.3 So, I mean, there are any4 number of things that we're looking to do5 and some of which we've already started6 to do, where we just flag the people and7 we know exactly where the problems are.8 We're starting to deal with them and9 trying to address them at their very10 core.11

So at12 some point there is an outcome, though?13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS: Oh,14 there's an outcome, and those cases are15 investigated. Each and every complaint16 is investigated, but in terms of -- I17 think I was getting at the crux of your18 issue trying to identify somebody who is19 problematic because the same issues keep20 coming up.21

Well,22 that was the issue too, right. Okay.23 And it is a good idea to make sure that24 we have those grievance forms, complaint25 128 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 forms in our office. We can always2 download them, but it's just simpler if3 you have them here. And I assume you4 probably have them at libraries and5 playgrounds or rec centers?6 DEPUTY

Rec7 centers. They will be at the rec8 centers. I know they haven't been placed9 there yet, but they will be. That's part10 of the proactive things that the11 Commissioner is putting forward.12

Okay. I13 want to get to some of the other14 witnesses that are here, and we may have15 further questions for the Police16 Department. Is everybody going to leave17 or are some people going to stay or are18 you available all day?19 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There20 will be some staying.21

Excuse22 me?23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSS: I24 think the Commissioner and myself, at a25 129 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 minimum, will be here all day.2

Okay.3 Great. Great. Thank you. Thank you for4 your testimony, and we do want to get to5 some of the other witnesses.6 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you7 for calling this hearing, ma'am. Thank8 you.9

You're10 welcome. Thank you.11 Okay. Our next group is the12 Police Advisory Commission, Bill Johnson,13 Joi Spraggins; Town Watch, Anthony14 Murphy; and John McGrody from the FOP.15 (Witnesses approached witness16 table.)17

Hi. Good18 afternoon. Please identify yourself for19 the record. Don't forget to speak into20 the mike so we can hear you. And if you21 have written testimony, one of the22 Sergeant-At-Arms will obtain it to23 distribute to Committee members.24 Thank you. You can proceed.25 130 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

2 Good afternoon, Councilwoman Miller,3 distinguished members of the Committee on4 Public Safety and other members of City5 Council, the Mayoral Administration and6 the public. 20 More than 15 years ago, the21 Philadelphia Police Advisory Commission22 was created by the Executive Order of23 then Mayor Edward Rendell. 1 concerned with very serious allegations2 of police misconduct arising out of the3 39th District. 8 Since its creation, the Police9 Advisory Commission has worked tirelessly10 to fulfill its mission. 1 function is generally triggered by the2 receipt of a complaint of police3 misconduct. Any citizens who believe4 that they are a victim of police5 misconduct may file a complaint with the6 Commission on a form devised by the7 Commission. 15 The Commission's own16 investigative staff first process and17 then thoroughly investigates the18 complaints we receive. 1 following full investigation and, where2 necessary, conduct hearings that include3 the complainant, the police officer or4 officers and witnesses. After this5 process is completed, the Commission may6 make written recommendations for7 discipline or exonerating officers8 accused of misconduct. 12 The Philadelphia Police13 Advisory Commission is comprised of 1914 citizen volunteers who hail from every15 corner of the City and every walk of16 life. Our members include business and17 community leaders, clergy, former police18 officers, attorneys and academics, who19 together represent the rich cultural,20 racial and ethnic diversity of our great21 city. As you know, we commissioners are22 appointed pursuant to a selection process23 involving the Mayor and City Council. 1 appointed eight new commissioners, and2 after a fully transparent series of3 public hearings examining approximately4 over 50 applicants, Council submitted a5 list of 21 recommended citizen6 volunteers, of which 11 were appointed by7 the Mayor in September to fully empower8 the Commission. 14 Since April, the Police15 Advisory Commission has been very, very16 busy. 10 By inviting senior representatives from11 the Police Department to our community12 meetings, the Commission has helped to13 open up the lines of communication14 between the Department and the community15 stakeholders. 2 It is truly our honor to be of3 service. 9

Thank10 you.11 Do you have testimony,12 Ms. Johnson?13 (Ms. Gess yelling from14 audience.)15

Ma'am,16 you can't ask --17

I do not.18

You have19 to ask a question from the table here.20 You can't ask it from out there.21 (Ms. Gess yelling from22 audience.)23

Excuse24 me. Mr. Johnson, do you have testimony?25 137 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

I do not, ma'am.2

I know3 that you do, Anthony. Okay. Thank you.4 Please proceed.5

Good afternoon,6 Councilwoman Miller and members of the7 Committee on Public Safety. I am Anthony8 Murphy, Director of Town Watch Integrated9 Services. Thank you for allowing me to10 address this distinguished Committee on11 the important topic of police conduct in12 our city.13 I would like to begin by saying14 that Town Watch Integrated Services15 organizes citizens throughout the City of16 Philadelphia to patrol their17 neighborhoods and serve as the eyes and18 ears of the community. These patrols19 help to serve as a deterrent to criminal20 activity and also to provide immediate21 information to the Police Department. As22 a part of our work, we engage citizens23 and police officers to improve and24 maintain a positive relationship. In25 138 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 this manner, we are working to improve2 public safety in a holistic way. We3 strive to ensure that citizens understand4 the police and the nature of police work.5 We also strive to ensure that police6 officers understand the needs and7 concerns of citizens. We are also8 available to assist citizens with9 complaints against officers and help them10 to understand the complaint process, and11 in this way, it is hoped that the12 citizens won't feel intimidated.13 I also believe it's important14 to note that participation in Town Watch15 and our other safety programs continue to16 grow.17 Thank you for this opportunity,18 and I will gladly answer any questions19 you may have.20

Thank21 you.22 With the Police Advisory23 Commission, how many complaints are you24 currently investigating?25 139 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

To date, we2 have approximately 136 complaints.3

So how4 many did you have last year? What's the5 date, timeline on that?6

I'm going to --7 I would like to defer to William Johnson,8 Executive Director.9

Thank10 you.11

As of last year,12 we investigated 195 complaints from13 citizens. The 136 number is our count of14 complaints to date.15

I'm16 sorry. Say that again, that last17 statement.18

The 13619 complaints is the total number of20 complaints that have been filed with the21 Commission to date.22

For 2010.23

For 2010. I'm24 sorry.25 140 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

I'm2 sorry.3

Up until this4 point, December of 2010, we've had 1365 complaints filed.6

December7 of 2009?8

'10.9

'10?10

Yes.11

I'm a bit12 confused.13

I'll clarify.14 For 2010 to date, there has been 13615 complaints filed.16

From what17 was the beginning of that time period?18 Like was it last year?19

For the20 calendar year. In 2009 -- and we've21 published this in our annual reports --22 for the calendar year, there was 19523 complaints.24

Okay.25 141 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 And now we're down to 136?2

Correct.3

All4 right. That's good. So we're showing5 some progress.6 Councilman Jones.7

Yes. Good8 afternoon.9

Wait.10 I'm sorry. We really should have heard11 from the FOP before we started questions.12 So let's hear from you guys.13 MR. McGRODY: Good afternoon,14 Councilwoman Miller.15

17 MR. McGRODY: My name is John18 McGrody. I'm the Vice-President of the19 Fraternal Order of Police, Lodge No. 20 I appear here today with Eugene Blagmond21 sitting behind me to my right. 1 members. I appear before you here today2 as a Philadelphia police officer and I3 serve as the Vice-President of Fraternal4 Order of Police, Lodge No. 5. FOP5 President John McNesby has asked me to6 appear to represent the concerns and7 thoughts of our 14,500 members, of which8 6,000 of them are active-duty officers on9 the streets of Philadelphia. The FOP10 stands united here today with Police11 Commissioner Ramsey and Deputy Mayor12 Gillison. 1 second-guessed workers in City2 government. On any given day, a3 Philadelphia police officer can face a4 scrutiny of the news media, a judge, a5 jury, a district attorney, a public6 defender, a politician, an FBI agent or7 any public advocate outside of the8 Department. Inside the Department, the9 officer is subject to the scrutiny and10 review of their supervisors, the Internal11 Affairs Division, the command staff, the12 IMPACT Division and the Police Advisory13 Commission. I am quite sure that I14 missed a few folks in this list of15 solicitation of individuals here. 19 By telling you that our20 officers are the most investigated21 members of City government, I ask that22 you act thoughtfully and rationally as23 you address the prospect of misdeeds or24 wrongdoing within our ranks. 3 When a Philadelphia police4 officer exits their patrol car or enters5 a home or business, they have no idea6 what they may encounter. 12 Interaction with police and citizens is13 inevitable in a free society in which our14 citizens have more rights than any other15 individuals in the world. 19 When stopping individuals,20 officers have the obligation to provide21 for the safety of the individual they are22 encountering, other members of the23 community and the police officers24 themselves. 1 often in the last several years, our2 police officers have been the victims of3 violence perpetrated upon them by4 individuals they have encountered on the5 streets. In fact, just five days ago, a6 police officer was shot in an encounter7 with a motorist. 10 In the past year, I served as a11 volunteer on a committee of the state MPO12 Commission, which is the commission that13 oversees training for police officers14 throughout the State of Pennsylvania,15 regarding ethics and career survival for16 police officers. This course will be17 mandatory training for all Pennsylvania18 police officers in the calendar year19 2011. The Philadelphia Police Department20 has also devised their own internal21 ethics course which every Philadelphia22 police officer must complete in addition23 to the 2011 state ethics course. 1 to act and react. 5 When the first inkling of a6 problem surfaced, it was members of the7 Philadelphia Police Department and police8 officers themselves that decided to act9 swiftly and address the problem. Under10 the leadership of Commissioner Ramsey and11 FOP President John McNesby, these12 initiative are going into effect. 21 Some have asked me how to best22 restore the honor and integrity in our23 department. In my mind, there's nothing24 to restore. 5 percent of our2 members who leave the safety of their3 homes and families and risk their lives4 on a daily basis in completing the5 honorable work of a Philadelphia police6 officer. For the vast majority of our7 members, there is no scandal. 13

Thank14 you.15 Any questions from members of16 the Committee?17 Councilman Jones.18

Thank you,19 Madam Chair.20 Thank you all for your21 testimony. I agree with 99 percent of22 what you said, except for the good guys23 always ride in the front and the bad guys24 always ride in the back. Sometimes --25 148 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 (Applause.)2

Sometimes3 there are innocent people who find4 themselves in the back of the car as5 well, and we need to know the difference6 and be able to treat all of them with7 dignity and respect. Force that is due,8 but not more. And that's the only9 possible way we disagree on that.10 MR. McGRODY: Councilman Jones,11 that's not the way I meant it. If you12 took it that way, I'm sorry. What I13 meant is if there's bad guys sitting in14 the back of the car -- in the front of15 the car, we need to get them in the back16 seat. That's our viewpoint.17

Then we18 agree. All right.19 Let's go with a couple of20 quantifiable questions. I don't -- I21 think I got the figure wrong from22 Commissioner Ramsey. I heard 700 or so23 complaints a year, and then I heard a24 figure of about 100-plus complaints, and25 149 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I'm trying to figure out are they two2 separate sources, and, if so, what are3 those?4

To answer your5 question, Councilman, there are not6 really separate sources. The 1367 complaints that are filed with the Police8 Advisory Commission are included in the9 725 that the Police Commissioner reported10 today.11

So the12 differential, it comes from where? I13 know where yours -- you stated where14 yours come from, but where then does the15 other 600-plus come from that the16 Commissioner referenced? Internal17 Affairs?18

Internal Affairs.19

All right.20 Over the inception of the Commission, how21 many complaints have you received?22

Over 2,500 since23 the inception of the Commission back in24 1994.25 150 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Of those2 2,500, how have they been disposed of?3

Numerous ways.4 Some are fully investigated, others are5 sent to the Police Department for their6 investigation, and then those7 investigations are reviewed. Of course,8 some are dismissed as not being factual9 complaints.10 So there are a number of11 different ways that a complaint may be12 taken out of the process. Along with13 that, we also conduct public hearings,14 actually panel hearings, into certain15 complaints that we believe that there's a16 need to bring certain issues to the17 public forum, and so those would be18 scheduled for public hearings.19

Of the 2,50020 complaints, how many have been found21 warranted, how many have been dismissed?22

Our numbers23 follow pretty much the national numbers.24 Usually about ten percent of all25 151 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 complaints --2

I need to3 know how many, not about. How many?4

How many actual5 complaints? I don't have that number6 with me today. I can get that for you.7

Of that,8 when you say about disposed of, in what9 way? I mean, how have they -- you said a10 number of ten percent national average.11 So tell me what the national average --12

Let me clarify13 that for you. The ten percent number I14 quoted for you was the amount of15 complaints that are actually sustained.16

So out of17 the hundred or so complaints we'll get --18 if we say 150, we'll get 15?19

That's right.20

And then out21 of that 15, what is the disposition?22

It could be23 various things. It could be --24

I'm trying25 152 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to --2

Yeah. It could3 be recommendations for discipline. It4 could be recommendations for changes in5 policy or practice. It could be6 recommendations for training. It could7 be reprimands. It could be a number of8 different things.9

I think it10 is very important, Madam Chair, that we11 know the exact disposition and work of12 the Commission. I think that's an13 important statistic. And I say this14 because the public, of those 12315 complaints on average -- let's use that16 number -- people who file them want to17 know that disposition, because one of the18 concerns raised -- and you sat through19 those lengthy community meetings -- was20 that the belief is that they go somewhere21 to die and that they go somewhere and22 aren't followed up on, and it is very23 important to keep the statistics.24 Of those 15 or so complaints a25 153 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 year that you find founded, how many of2 them have resulted in the dismissal of an3 officer?4

Councilman5 Jones, you are raising excellent6 questions and we thank you for those7 questions, and that is the value of the8 full body that we have now with the9 commissioners on board. We actually have10 an Investigative Review Committee that11 has been put together and we are actually12 going to be doing our due diligence13 process to look at the data that is very14 important so that we can understand what15 the trends are and to look at some16 proactive strategies that we can work17 together collectively with City Council,18 also with the Police Department, with19 Deputy Mayor Everett Gillison.20 So the questions that you21 raise, we thank you so much. We would22 like to be able to -- it is a high23 priority for us, and we would like to be24 able to capture all of the questions that25 154 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you have in addition to the wealth of2 questions that -- our commissioners are3 meeting with actually as we speak every4 week that we're together, and it is a top5 priority. We will absolutely look6 forward to getting back to you.7

That's fair8 enough, because we got budget time coming9 up, and I'll ask them again. I10 absolutely guarantee you that.11 One of the things I'd like to12 know while you're ferreting through those13 questions is, what is the average length14 of time that it takes to turn around a15 complaint to a decision or a16 recommendation?17

The average18 number of -- well, the average has varied19 over several years. Right now it is20 about seven months for a full21 investigation to disposition.22

And why is23 the length of that -- what is the average24 length of time it takes to send somebody25 155 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to trial? A hundred twenty days, isn't2 it? What is it?3 DEPUTY

One4 eighty.5

One eighty?6 All right. Just as a point of reference7 there.8 What do you attribute the9 length of that discovery to?10

The length of11 time can be related to a number of12 different factors. Part of the13 investigative process requires us to14 collect information not only from15 complainants but also from independent16 witnesses. We must also collect17 information pertaining to injuries, which18 involve doctors' records, as well as any19 other type of information related to that20 complaint. That, at times, can cause the21 process to be a bit extended.22

Now, you23 didn't say budget, so okay. We're going24 to take that one off the table, Everett,25 156 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 but we're going to be looking at that by2 way of process.3 But let me say this: It is too4 long, and here's why it's too long. It's5 unfair to the officer that has the6 clouded title, cloud of suspicion over7 him, and it is unfair to the complainant8 who filed a complaint in good faith,9 wants a determination. Whether you say10 it's valid or not valid, at least it's11 not hanging over their head, and there12 are probably other connecting things that13 go along with that, because usually it's14 been -- well, maybe I'll pose it in the15 form of a question.16 When someone files a complaint,17 how often is it there is a counter-charge18 associated with the individual19 complaining?20

Well, when you21 say "counter-charge" --22

If I come to23 you for a complaint, what is the24 probability that there is some type of25 157 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 charge placed on the person complaining?2 Meaning, I'm coming in to complain. Is3 there something in court or is there a4 charge associated with me? On average,5 is that the norm or do you have a6 statistic that tells us that?7

Probably about 258 percent of all the complaints we receive9 have some connected charge to them where10 the individual is now in court to have11 those charges resolved. So, yes.12

I'm going13 to ask the Commission to delve into that14 and give me some exact, because "about"15 and "approximately" -- whenever you say16 25 percent on the money, I know that's17 probably a little inaccurate. So I need18 to know the accurate number, accurate19 times, how long disposition takes. I20 think that's critical in restoring faith21 of the public that this process is22 something that -- when somebody23 complains, they take time to do it. When24 an officer is under that cloud, you know,25 158 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that may weigh heavily on promotions,2 this, that or the other. So disposition3 one way or the other is critical in4 resolution of these matters and restoring5 faith of the public.6

Let me add just7 for clarity that every complainant who8 comes in is informed of a disposition on9 their complaint. They are sent a formal10 notice of the disposition of the11 complaint that they filed. So no one is12 going on without knowing the results of13 their actual complaint.14

All right.15 And, finally, what is your budget and16 what is the average cost to follow up a17 complaint? How much does it cost to18 investigate these things?19

The last time we20 looked at that was back in 2006, so I can21 give you the statistics from that. Our22 budget -- well, our budget I can give you23 today. Our budget today is a little less24 than $300,000. We have five employees25 159 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that are working at the Commission.2

Five3 employees that deal with the hundred and4 what cases a year?5

Hundred thirty6 six new complaints that we receive.7

And if we8 have a seven-month period, that can be9 some overlap.10

There absolutely11 has been some overlap. We are carrying12 now approximately 185, I believe, pending13 cases.14

Just real15 quick, and this will be my final16 question, Madam Chair. There was a17 reference in a news article of $3118 million that was a result of lawsuits19 that the City settled on. How many of20 them were connected? Is there a direct21 correlation between complaints filed by22 you and are some of the recipients of23 those awards some of the cases that you24 deal with?25 160 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

There have been2 some. I couldn't tell you what the exact3 statistic would be, but there have been4 some people who have filed complaints5 with us who have received settlement from6 the City.7

Of your8 complaints, how many -- so Internal9 Affairs deals with a different group.10 How many of them have been domestic by11 nature of the complaints that were filed,12 a spouse of an officer or something like13 that? Do you get those kinds of14 complaints or is it generally just the15 public?16

We have gotten17 those kinds of complaints, but they18 are -- there's a very small number of19 those we've received.20

And how many21 of them are business related, small22 businesses? I need a breakdown, I guess,23 of the anatomy of the types of complaints24 that have come in by category. So when I25 161 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 say "by category," how many of them are2 people that are a result of police stops?3 How many of them are complaints that are4 a little more generated by commercial5 businesses, and a breakdown of them? And6 I would ask that question also of7 Internal Affairs. No details about any8 particular cases, but I'd like some9 general categories by which we are10 receiving those cases to see if there is11 a pattern and/or trend.12

What I can tell13 you statistically from the time that we14 began tracking the stop and frisk15 initiative, which we were asked to do by16 the Deputy Mayor, in April of 2008 until17 December of 2009, there had been 12018 complaints of police misconduct connected19 with the stop and frisk initiative. Now,20 we haven't compiled the 2010 numbers as21 of yet.22

So how many23 years' data do you have?24

That would be25 162 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 from April of 2008 to December of 2009.2

Do you keep3 track of the racial composition of these4 complaints?5

We do. We6 absolutely do.7

Can you8 share that with us?9

I can.10 Of the 136 complaints that11 we've received thus far this year, 7212 percent, or 97, of those individuals have13 been African American, 12 have been14 Latino, about nine percent of all15 complaints, 24 have been Caucasian, about16 19.5 percent, and three percent have been17 Asian or other.18

Any female?19 Do you keep track of that?20

We do keep21 categories of male and female as well.22 I'm just looking for it here on my sheet.23 We do have that statistic. I24 don't have it with me right now. We can25 163 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 supply it.2

I know3 Ms. Spraggins is going to make sure you4 have that.5

Yes, we are.6 We will definitely look at breakdown with7 female and male.8

Thank you,9 Madam Chair.10

You're11 welcome.12 Mr. Johnson and Ms. Spraggins,13 what type of outreach do you do and how14 do you think you can become a more15 visible organization? Because many16 people don't know who you are and what17 you do.18

Thank you,19 Councilwoman Miller, for asking the20 question. We have the opportunity now to21 be much more effective and increase the22 Philadelphia Police Advisory Commission23 awareness in the community due to the24 full body of the Commission's25 164 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 commissioners that we have on board.2 We have been in the community.3 I've held community meetings as well as4 participate in the pilot program, and we5 are in the process, in addition to6 providing the -- reviewing the --7 gathering the due diligence around the8 statistical data, to look at the type of9 complaints.10 We are also -- our second top11 priority, or you can say out of our top12 three, is to develop a comprehensive13 community outreach program that will14 increase our awareness throughout the15 City of Philadelphia.16

Certainly17 we know you exist, but I do think that18 more and more people need to know not19 just about you but also about the police20 advisory groups at the local districts.21 And I know you have nothing to do with22 that, but I just think it's a need that23 we need to make sure that we publicize24 more that you guys are around.25 165 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Absolutely.2 And we will be working very closely with3 Deputy Mayor Everett Gillison and looking4 at a comprehensive public safety strategy5 which will highlight a lot of the6 coordination as well as the comprehensive7 strategy that we've put together to reach8 the people in the community so that they9 know that we are their partners, as well10 as we want each City Council member to11 know we're your strategic partners.12 We're here to work together with you,13 because we know how hard you work in the14 community to effect change, as well as to15 work with Commissioner Ramsey and the16 fine police officers that really are17 dedicated to ensure that the City is18 safe.19

Okay.20 Thank you.21 Mr. McGrody, I have a question.22 If someone has a complaint, is the FOP a23 place that a person can come with a24 complaint?25 166 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 MR. McGRODY: No, not at this2 time. I don't -- we haven't had a3 discussion with Commissioner Ramsey. We4 actually represent and defend the police5 officers. I don't know if that's6 something we'd be involved in.7

Okay. I8 mean, I know that you represent and9 defend, but I just thought I'd ask the10 question, because I never heard of11 anybody going there and filing a12 complaint.13 MR. McGRODY: We have had14 people come in and file complaints, and15 we do direct them to the proper facility16 or we provide them with a phone, if need17 be.18

Okay.19 Thank you.20 Are there any other questions21 for this panel by Committee members?22 (No response.)23 (Ms. Gess yelling from24 audience.)25 167 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Thank2 you. Thank you for coming today.3

Thank you very4 much for having us. Thank you.5 (Ms. Gess yelling from6 audience.)7

Our third8 panel, Cecil Thomas, Cincinnati Council9 President; Helen Foster, New York City10 Councilwoman; Chad Lassiter, Professor at11 University of Penn.12 (Ms. Gess yelling from13 audience.)14

Excuse15 me, ma'am. Did you sign up to testify?16

Where's the place to17 sign up?18

If you19 sign up, we can have you testify when20 it's your turn. Thank you.21

Want me to sign22 right now, come up to the desk?23

We24 actually have Cecil Thomas, Cincinnati25 168 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Council President on the phone, so we're2 going to hear his testimony first.3

This4 is Councilman Thomas. Am I on?5

I'm6 sorry. Say that again. We are having a7 little disturbance here.8

This9 is Councilman Cecil Thomas.10

Okay.11 Can you proceed? You can just state who12 you are and proceed with your testimony.13 COUNCIL PRESIDENT THOMAS:14 Sure. Absolutely. Well, I'm a member of15 the City Council here in the City of16 Cincinnati.17 I'm getting a tremendous amount18 of feedback. Sorry. So I'll try to work19 through this.20 I'm the President Pro Temp of21 the Council here in Cincinnati, and I'm a22 former law enforcement officer, retired23 after 27 years as a member of the24 Cincinnati Police Department. After25 169 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 retiring from the Police Department, I2 spent five years as the Executive3 Director of the Cincinnati Human4 Relations Commission here in the City of5 Cincinnati, and during that period was6 when we had civil unrest in our city as a7 result of problems between the8 relationship between citizens and police,9 and an officer-involved shooting sparked10 some unrest in our city.11 So I kind of feel that -- I12 hear what's being said here. I listened13 to the discussions, and it mirrors a lot14 of what Cincinnati was experiencing that15 led up to the civil unrest in our city.16 And I want to check in to make17 sure I'm still on the line, if someone18 can let me know, because I just don't19 want to be talking to myself and find out20 I wasn't --21

You are22 still on the line.23

Very24 good.25 170 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Thank2 you.3

So4 as a result of that incident, prior to5 that, there was a tremendous amount of6 distrust between certain segments of our7 community and the police. More specific,8 the areas of our city that were9 experiencing a number of problems, in the10 African American communities in11 particular, the areas of our city that12 had high incidence of crime, high13 incidence of police-citizen contacts,14 those areas were strained tremendously as15 it relates to citizens and police, and as16 a result of all of that strain, things17 started to just deal that we had citizens18 being shot by the police, we had police19 being shot by citizens, and the overall20 perception was, it was an "us against21 them" attitude in our community. 8 Well, the mistake that the9 Cincinnati Police Department made, along10 with the government at that time, was11 that they said, Well, we're investigating12 it and we'll let you know. Well, all13 that did was add additional suspect to14 what was going on and maybe there was15 coverup and these types of things. 3 So we needed to take a look at police, we4 needed to take a look at citizens. 8 We first looked at our Police9 Department, and we said, Are you doing10 everything -- are your procedures and11 policies, are they the best practices12 around the country? 1 indiscriminate stopping of young African2 American males and using that as a3 pretext to see if they were selling drugs4 or carrying drugs. 11 Well, yes. 14 So the pretext of that started15 to happen much more frequently, not just16 vehicle stops but just citizen-police17 contacts. 7 Now, after the civil unrest,8 when we looked at what we needed to do,9 we decided that we -- well, we had to10 come to an agreement. Meaning the FOP,11 the Police Department, the City of12 Cincinnati and the citizens all had to13 come to some agreements. The first thing14 that we wanted to do was allow an outside15 entity, being the Justice Department, to16 take a look at Cincinnati's policies,17 police policies and procedures. 1 Cincinnati Police Department that needed2 some form of change or tweaking or some3 corrections, 105 of those policies. 8 Once we began to address those9 105 or so changes -- and there was10 resistance by our law enforcement11 community, which was expected. However,12 as we continued to evolve, things got13 better and better. 19 There were two agreements that20 we worked out to begin to work through21 some of our problems. One I sent to22 Councilman Jones is called the RAN23 Report. 1 between the Justice Department and the2 City of Cincinnati, which changed the way3 we do a lot of our policies and4 procedures. 6 I said there were two, but7 there was three. The third one was the8 Collaborative Agreement, which was a9 monitored, agreed-upon method by which we10 worked together, citizens, police, the11 Justice Department, as well as -- it was12 the citizens and the government. 16 The other piece of that that17 built that trust was that we agreed that18 the most important thing is to stop the19 violence and how do we do that without20 violating the most principles of rights21 of citizens, without pointing the finger22 at police, without pointing the finger at23 the community, but allowing them to work24 together. 2 Overall, you all are where we3 were a number of years ago. I'm not4 against arguing against the stop and5 frisk. There's a means by which you do6 that. The problem we had when I was on7 the police force utilizing the same8 tactics of stop and frisk, checking9 people out, is that young officers -- and10 I'm not condemning the younger officers,11 but when you bring young officers on,12 they're extremely aggressive. They want13 to do the job and they want to lock up14 the bad guy, and they want to use every15 means by which to do that, and sometimes16 they over -- they become overbearing in17 how they do their work. 1 that kind of stop and arrest because you2 didn't have probable cause.

So the point3 was, is that the Chief of Police decided4 that -- and this was part of an5 agreement -- that at any time a police6 officer decides that he's going to7 attempt to search a car, he cannot just8 say to the citizen, Can I search your9 car? 1 lot of citizens who would just make false2 complaints against police. So we had to3 write in our Collaborative Agreement4 accountability for folks who file just5 frivolous complaints that did not6 actually occur, and then we tracked7 those. 13 On the other side of that, we14 also established tracking mechanisms for15 officers who continuously get complaints16 that either were sustained or there was17 no way to determine one way or the other18 whether it's sustained or not. When you19 start to track that, the officer starts20 to develop a pattern. Those are the21 officers that we were able to begin to22 say, Okay, are you sure you want to be a23 police officer? 2 So as a result of all of that,3 we now have in place something that is4 really working well in our city as it5 relates to citizens and police working6 together. There's an effort called the7 Cincinnati Initiative to Reduce Violence,8 CIRV, C-I-R-V is the acronym. 10 And the reason that works so well is11 because the citizens are saying to the12 police, You do your job. You're trained13 to do a certain job, which is to protect14 us. And then the citizens are saying to15 the police, We will work with you and16 weed out those that are the problem. The17 only thing that the citizens are asking18 of the police in -- I mean of the City19 Administration is that we create20 opportunities for those who want out of21 that circumstance of crime and all those22 other things. 1 over there that want out of that --2 that's caught up in that life-style and3 want out of it, we got to create4 opportunities for them to be able to get5 out of that, but, however, if they insist6 on continuing that life of crime, of7 selling drugs on the corner, even after8 we brought you in and said, Look, we know9 who you are, the community knows who you10 are, we want you to stop doing that in11 our community, if you still insist on12 doing that, the citizens will say to the13 Chief of Police and his designees, Yes,14 we will help you get this person out of15 our community. 18 And, finally, the third part of19 all of that is when we talk about all the20 collateral damage. What we've determined21 is that there is only a very small22 percentage of people in our community23 that is causing the bulk of the problems24 as far as the violence. 1 it through a lot of intelligence from our2 law enforcement community, intelligence3 from citizens, everybody say, Well, these4 are the folks that are the real problem5 in our community. 13 So with that -- okay. So with14 that, let me wrap this up real quick. 1

Okay.2 Thank you, President Thomas. I think3 that Philadelphians and our different4 entities are together on this issue. You5 know, our goal is to just keep improving6 and making sure that we're doing the7 right thing. And we want to thank you8 for your input today and look forward to9 reading the documents that you've sent to10 Councilman Jones.11 Councilman Jones.12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT THOMAS:13 Okay. I'll hold on and just listen.14

Thank you,15 Councilman.16

18 It's already on. See, ours is19 red. I don't think yours is red. 22 Good afternoon. My name is Chad Dion23 Lassiter. 1 Pennsylvania. 6 I also want to acknowledge my7 colleagues, Councilman Jones, Deputy8 Mayor of Public Safety Everett Gillison,9 Gabriel Bryant from Philadelphia Futures10 and Deputy Commissioner Ross. 17 Regrettably, many African18 Americans and Latino Americans are aware19 of police misconduct in this nation's20 history and specifically here in21 Philadelphia, be it in the form of22 excessive use of police force, brutality23 or racial profiling. 1 of family members or friends. Therefore,2 the more recent instances of police3 misconduct, no matter how shocking to4 some, confirm what many black and brown5 people already believe about the American6 criminal justice system: That justice is7 not always leveraged fairly. 12 Simply put, the public face of13 a police brutality victim is that of14 black and Latino male. This racial link15 is the direct result of the16 disproportionately high number of blacks17 and Latinos who have been assaulted by18 the police. The racialization of police19 brutality has come at a high price. The20 fact that police brutality is represented21 as black has relegated it to the bottom22 tier of the social problems. 1 of police brutality offered by members of2 minority communities. 10 All told, the dismissal of11 police violence as a black thing should12 not surprise anyone on City Council or in13 the City of Philadelphia. 16 Not only has police brutality17 been widely defined as a black problem,18 it has been positioned as a problem for19 which blacks are solely to blame. Some20 here will assert that the high levels of21 police abuse against blacks and Latinos22 can be explained by their high rates of23 offending. 2 Councilman Jones and others,3 many whites have no idea of how afraid4 many black and Latino people are of5 police. 16 The harsh truth is that young17 black men have the highest probability of18 being stopped and, therefore, harassed by19 the police. 1 PROFESSOR LASSITER: --2 studying in the library while black,3 working while black, or in my case during4 the summer of 2005, attending church5 while black, when two or four black cops6 wanted to check my Bible for a weapon of7 a crime that happened near or around the8 church that I attend, Triumph Baptist9 Church. 5 Where do we go? Because of the6 "we against them" fraternity and7 mentality and the "blue wall of silence"8 within the Police Department, it has9 always been difficult to prove police10 brutality cases. Police officers often11 refuse to come forward to expose brutal12 and corrupt fellow officers. Police13 officers are also invested with a special14 dispensation of trust, which provides15 them to get the benefit of the doubt in16 court proceedings. 18 Therefore, the cops are right, is the19 thinking. If we assert that not all20 police engage in misconduct, then we must21 also assert that not all black and Latino22 people are criminals. 1 The problem of police brutality2 must be understood in a larger social,3 economic and political context. )9 PROFESSOR LASSITER: Not saying10 that these are forthcoming suggestions11 that have not been looked at. Maybe they12 have. I offer some following13 suggestions:14 Advocate for more police15 training, not on cultural awareness,16 anti-racism training, and how to interact17 more effectively with minority18 communities. 6 And, lastly, engage in greater7 outreach and education to African8 Americans and people of color. )18

Thank19 you, sir. Thank you for your testimony.20 Are there any questions?21 (No response.)22

Thank23 you. Thank you for your patience in24 waiting. Thank you.25 193 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 The next witnesses we have on2 the list -- and if I could just add,3 there are a number of people who still4 wish to give testimony and I just -- we5 all appreciate if you could be as brief6 as possible so everybody has a chance to7 testify and doesn't have to leave.8 The next ones I have on my list9 are Pastor Brian Jenkins. Is he here?10 Yes. Joe Easton, is he here? Okay. And11 Sara Mullen or anyone representing the12 ACLU. If you three could come forward,13 I'd appreciate it.14 And, again, if you have written15 testimony, we can have that put in the16 record.17 (Witnesses approached witness18 table.)19

Pastor20 Jenkins, you're first. If you could just21 identify yourself for the record and22 proceed, please.23

Thank you.24 Good morning -- afternoon actually now.25 194 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Yeah,2 it's afternoon now.3

My name is4 Brian Jenkins. I'm the Senior Pastor of5 Chosen 300 Outreach and Worship Center at6 1116 Spring Garden Street and Executive7 Director of Chosen 300 Ministries8 worldwide. 12 My congregation is made up of13 primarily homeless people. Ninety14 percent of the congregation is actually15 homeless. We've experienced two16 incidents in particular during worship,17 during worship in which police officers18 have come into our worship services and19 disrupted worship. One was in October of20 2008. There were six police officers21 that stormed into our building during22 worship service to look for someone. 5 July 5th of 2009, two officers6 stormed into our Sunday morning worship7 during prayer and wanted to look for8 someone who had pick-pocketed someone on9 Arch Street, which is three-quarters of a10 mile away. 18 There was policy that was put in place by19 the Police Department that officers could20 not enter into a worship service without21 notifying a supervisor and unless there22 was severe just cause. 4 I then stopped the officer. 7 So from that, you know, we8 finally got the officers out of the9 building. 15 They also, both of them, came to our16 Sunday morning worship and addressed the17 issue. 20 I believe that everybody has a21 right at some time to make a mistake or22 bad choice. The issue, the greater23 issue, is not the decision that was made24 on the day of our worship service. 10 We then filed another written11 complaint both to the Mayor of the City12 of Philadelphia, also the Police13 Commissioner. 15 We finally -- an internal16 investigation was done. 3 To date -- this incident4 happened July the 5th, 2009, over a year5 and a half ago -- what we have received6 is no answer. 7 My concern at this point is not8 so much the incident, but in our public,9 in our City government, we have the10 inability when complaints are filed that11 they are not answered. And I think you12 made an outstanding point earlier that it13 takes 180 days for a criminal to be14 prosecuted and that complaint to be15 completed. 19 I believe that we have an20 outstanding police force. 1 congregation of homeless people and no2 action is taken. 9 Like I said, we have some great10 officers. 11 We have great people that serve like12 Richard Ross and Kevin Bethel. 16

Thank17 you, Pastor, for your testimony.18 Mr. Easton.19

Yes. 2 And, again, my name is Joe3 Eastman. 13 For the past five years, it has14 been my honor and privilege to work with15 and get to know a man I believe to be the16 best district commander in Philadelphia,17 Captain Brian Korn, Commanding Officer,18 6th Police District. 20 Sixth District may be one of21 the most diverse in the City, going from22 Poplar Street in the north to Lombard in23 the south, Broad Street to the Delaware24 River. 1 to Chinatown, in my opinion, is treated2 with equal respect and dignity by Captain3 Korn and his officers. 7 Another reason and one in which8 I think is very beneficial for the sense9 of community within 6th District is the10 dialogue between 6th District and the11 community. 16 Couple this with Captain Korn's open-door17 policy to community members and it is18 easy to see the reason most issues are19 handled very quickly. If an issue is not20 resolved the day it is voiced, it's been21 my experience that it is resolved before22 close of business the next day. 5 I spent 25 years in the United6 States military. I received orders and I7 gave orders. I think I understand the8 art of leadership. 11 This is certainly true in 6th District,12 in my experience. Whether a lieutenant,13 sergeant or patrol officer, each one14 treats every community member within 6th15 District with respect and dignity. 19 With respect to the hearing, I20 believe this sense of community engrained21 within 6th District would empower those22 who believe it may have happened --23 misconduct now -- to come forward and24 report it. 1 member would feel threatened by coming2 forward. Just the opposite would happen,3 I believe. 13

Thank14 you.15 Ms. Mullen.16

Hi. Actually, Mary17 Catherine Roper. I'm a staff attorney18 for the American Civil Liberties Union of19 Pennsylvania, and I want to thank you for20 inviting us here today, but, more21 importantly, thank you for holding this22 hearing.23 The most important thing I have24 to say to you, though, is that you need25 205 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to hold another hearing in a year. We2 have heard a lot of aspirations and3 promises from the leadership of the4 Police Department today. I have to tell5 you, they are aspirations that I have6 been hearing from this Administration for7 two years that have not yet come to pass,8 such as the revitalization of the9 Integrity and Accountability Office.10 We agree with Commissioner11 Ramsey, with Deputy Mayor Gillison that12 the only way to effectively fight crime13 is with a police force that has a14 cooperative relationship with the15 community, which means communication,16 which Commissioner Ramsey certainly has17 been working on. But it also means18 accountability, and that is something19 that I think this community has not had20 from the Police Department.21 The new plan that has been put22 forward certainly has some excellent23 strategies for putting that kind of24 accountability into place. It doesn't25 206 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 have any deadlines in it. I'm wondering2 when these things that -- we heard a lot3 of things, we want to do this and we want4 to do that. We are interested at this5 point in results.6 This Administration has been7 here for nearly three years, and8 certainly the problems with the9 Philadelphia Police Department and its10 relationship with the community have been11 in existence much longer than that and12 have been known much longer than that.13 When this Administration first14 came in, when Commissioner Ramsey first15 came in and proposed a crime plan for16 dealing with what was then a crisis in17 crime, particularly violent crime in this18 city, one of the things we did at the19 ACLU was put forth a public call for an20 accountability plan. I can't tell you21 how happy I am to see an accountability22 plan from the Philadelphia Police, but23 the proof, of course, will be in the24 results.25 207 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I'm very happy in particular to2 see the new means of the public making3 complaints to the police. We have talked4 to many, many, many people with5 complaints about the conduct of6 Philadelphia police officers, ranging7 from simple rudeness to unnecessary8 violence. The vast majority of these9 people are completely terrified at the10 idea of walking into a police district11 office to file a complaint. The idea12 that they can now do that through a13 hotline, over the Internet, that is a14 huge improvement.15 I've also spoken to many people16 who have gone to police district offices17 to file complaints and they have been met18 with resistance, with discouragement,19 with efforts to talk them out of it, even20 though very polite and at times with21 downright threats.22 This is not always the case.23 There are -- there is -- no one wants to24 paint a generalization that says every25 208 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 police officer misbehaves, every2 complaint is dealt with improperly. None3 of that is true. Unfortunately, it4 happens often enough and the consequences5 don't follow often enough that what the6 public sees is a lack of accountability.7 Obviously Philadelphia8 residents --9

Ma'am, if10 I can just ask you to wrap it up as soon11 as you can, please.12

Absolutely. I will13 wrap it up.14

Because a15 lot of people are complaining that16 they're waiting a long time. Thank you.17

And I have every18 sympathy with them.19 I've said the most important20 thing I have to say. We all know the21 history of problems with this Police22 Department. We certainly trust in the23 genuineness of the statements here by24 everyone associated with the Police25 209 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Department that they want to fix the2 problem. The question is, will there be3 a follow-through, and that's why I ask4 this Committee, please, to follow through5 on your investigation.6

Thank7 you.8 I think Councilman Jones, you9 had a question for one of the witnesses.10

No. I'm11 going, for brevity, to hold it and I'll12 talk to you guys separately. Thank you13 so much for your testimony.14

Yeah.15 Thank you all for --16

If I can say17 just one quick final thing.18

Please,19 quickly.20

I am highly21 opposed to the stop and frisk policy.22 Why can't it be stop and say good23 morning?24 (Applause.)25 210 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

I mean,2 oftentimes stop and frisk is simply a3 pre-determination that person is guilty4 of doing something. Why can't you just5 say hi? I mean, hello. Good morning.6 Good afternoon. How are things going?7 Not, What do you have on you?8

Okay.9 Thank you. Thank you, sir.10 (Applause.)11

The next12 people I have on the list, Latasha13 Williams, is she here?14 (No response.)15

Hugh16 Giordano or a representative of Green17 Party? Okay. They're here. Greg18 Brinkley? I think I saw Greg. I thought19 I saw him before. Greg Brinkley here?20 No.21 The National Lawyers Guild,22 anyone representing them? Okay. And I'm23 probably going to say this wrong, and I24 apologize ahead of time, Sweit Adeen25 211 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Muhammad (ph), the Muslim League of2 Voters, anyone here representing them?3 (No response.)4

No?5 Okay. Why don't we start with you two.6 And I hate to do this, but, again, we got7 people complaining. The Chair of the8 Committee first set a three-minute rule.9 I'd really like to try to stick to that.10 Okay? I think you could say it in three11 minutes.12 If you could --13

Very well.14 I'll be glad to. I'll do my best.15 Good afternoon, Councilmembers.16 I welcome the opportunity to come here17 and testify as a representative of the18 National Lawyers Guild.19 Just to give you some20 perspective, my name is --21

Could you22 just identify yourself for the record.23

I will. My24 name is Paul Hetznecker. I have been25 212 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 practicing as a criminal defense attorney2 and civil rights attorney in the City of3 Philadelphia for almost a quarter4 century. I began my career at the5 Defender's Association of Philadelphia.6 I spent six years there. I was in the7 Special Defense Unit before I left to go8 into private practice. And in private9 practice, I have continued since 1993 to10 represent individuals in the Court of11 Common Pleas in criminal matters, in12 federal court both at trial and on13 appeal, and also in litigating and14 prosecuting civil rights cases on behalf15 of individuals in the City of16 Philadelphia.17 Let me just talk a little bit18 about the National Lawyers Guild, and19 I'll try to be as brief as possible.20 The National Lawyers Guild is21 an organization of lawyers that has been22 committed to fighting for social justice23 since the 1930s. Lawyers from the Guild24 have played an important role in25 213 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 progressive movements in this country,2 such as the Labor Movement in the 1930s3 and '40s, the Civil Rights Movement in4 the 1950s and '60s, the Anti-War Movement5 in the '60s and '70s. Lawyers from the6 Guild have been instrumental in7 advocating for the rights of the poor,8 disenfranchised and oppressed in our9 society. The protection of civil10 liberties has been an important part of11 that mission.12 Guild civil rights lawyers have13 long been at the forefront of combatting14 police misconduct for decades in this15 country. The Guild sponsors the National16 Police Accountability Project, which is17 specifically designed to combat police18 misconduct and the culture of abuse that19 has developed in so many police20 departments throughout this country. The21 mission of the Guild, and I hope all who22 cherish our civil rights in this country,23 is to end police abuse through24 coordinated legal action, public25 214 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 education and support for grassroots2 community organizing, confronting police3 misconduct.4 In order to combat police5 misconduct, it must first be understood.6 In offering this testimony, I bring7 almost a quarter century of experience as8 a criminal defense attorney and civil9 rights attorney. Two weeks ago I settled10 the civil rights case where the City of11 Philadelphia settled with respect to two12 officers who were defendants in the case,13 each of which had at least six complaints14 against them, none of them founded, none15 of them sustained. That's not unusual,16 unfortunately, in my experience.17 And I don't offer just18 anecdotal experience. I offer everyday19 confrontation of police abuse in the20 courtroom as a criminal defense attorney21 in violation of our Fourth Amendment22 rights and also as a civil rights23 attorney litigating cases that range from24 wrongful death all the way down to an25 215 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 illegal stop and frisk.2 So that's my experience, and I3 offer my testimony based on that4 experience.5 And this does not disparage the6 well and good intentions of the command7 structure of the Police Department.8 Everett Gillison and I were colleagues at9 the Defender's Association for many10 years, but I stand in opposition to the11 culture that has developed within the12 Police Department for decades and has13 been maintained, despite the reforms that14 have been implemented over the years,15 including the Police Advisory Commission.16

That's17 your whistle there, your 30-second18 warning.19

I understand20 that. If I could just offer --21

If you22 have written testimony, you can submit it23 and it will be made part of the record.24

If I could25 216 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 just offer some of the highlights.2

Okay. If3 you could do that quickly, please.4

Very well.5 A couple of things that have6 been offered in testimony today. One is7 the code of silence, which I think is8 entrenched within the Police Department9 and the police culture. It has to be10 combatted systematically.11 I laud the Police Department12 and the Commissioner for suggesting that13 the code of silence should be undermined14 by their new measure, and I applaud their15 efforts and I hope, as Mary Catherine16 Roper suggested from the ACLU, that a17 hearing in a year from now will be a good18 measure of whether or not that entrenched19 code of silence has been undermined.20 Secondly, there must be21 adequate supervision. An Internal22 Affairs complaint is not enough to have a23 review of -- an adequate review of police24 misconduct in the City. It doesn't do25 217 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 it.2 (Applause.)3

And, in fact,4 oftentimes a referral to Internal Affairs5 ends up being nothing more than6 ratification of that misconduct because7 there isn't in place the proper8 independent accountability that's been9 discussed, and, more importantly, there10 needs to be transparency. There isn't11 transparency in the structure of the12 decision-making that goes on in the13 Police Department.14 And, again, I laud the15 Commissioner's statements this morning16 about some of the reforms and some of the17 statements that Deputy Commissioner18 Gillison has suggested that will19 essentially create this transparency and20 accountability. But what I've seen over21 the years through all the cases that I've22 handled, the cases that I will handle23 tomorrow in the Court of Common Pleas or24 the lawsuits that I will bring on the25 218 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 numerous complaints that I get from2 civilians in my office every week about3 police abuse, what I hope to see is4 undermining that culture, is that a5 re-emergence of a new culture within the6 Police Department that lauds the7 principles of accountability and8 transparency.9 Thank you.10

Thank11 you.12 Mr. Giordano. Again, three13 minutes, please.14

I'll try.15 My name is Hugh Giordano. I am16 a representative of the Green Party,17 which is an independent third party, and18 one of our main planks is social justice.19 I am also a union representative, and I'm20 a longtime citizen of Philadelphia.21 I'm here today to speak about22 stop and frisk, which I think is a direct23 attack on the civil liberties and24 freedoms of the people of Philadelphia.25 219 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 And I have a real problem with it, and2 I'll give you a direct reason why.3 When I was 16 years old, I am4 from -- and I'll say, I'm from the5 Roxborough part of the City,6 predominantly middle-class, working-class7 white neighborhood. But stop and frisk8 goes beyond racial barriers. I think9 it's ageism and urbanism is attacked.10 When I was 16, I had my11 license, just got a brand new Monte12 Carlo, which was not brand new, but 1971.13 I thought I was the man, had the two14 diamond earrings in my ear, going to pick15 up a girl for a date. And as I was16 driving, I was looked at by a white17 officer -- and, again, I am white -- and18 he did an immediate U-turn. I looked19 down at my gauge. I was going 23 miles20 per hour in a 25. I'll never forget this21 day. I was pulled over. He came up to22 my window and said, Chico, I think this23 car is stolen. First thing he said to24 me.25 220 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Now, I'm not Hispanic, and at2 16, I thought, you know -- I didn't think3 of anything that way.4 When he told me to get out of5 the car and put my hands on the hood on6 Ridge Avenue in front of Kathy7 Manderino's office at 5 o'clock on a8 Friday, it was embarrassing, and it made9 me hostile as a young man and gave me10 that, you know -- young people get upset11 about this type of thing, and that's why12 you have a disconnect between the13 community and the police, and that's why14 you have that don't snitch mentality.15 And so through that, it really16 opened my eyes that I grew up real fast.17 Now, ten years later, I'm 26.18 I see an African American cop pull over19 an Hispanic male in Roxborough and yell20 and scream at him because he couldn't21 speak English, saying, This is America,22 Homeboy. You don't like it, go back.23 So there is intolerance still,24 ten years later, and I saw it on the25 221 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 street.2 Here's the real issue: Stop3 and frisk is a Band-Aid on a gunshot4 wound. City Council may not be the law,5 but you create the law, and it's your6 responsibility as a politician and as a7 leader to make laws that protect your8 citizens. This is a representative9 democracy and it's your job to protect10 them.11 I would like to see real issues12 be talked about. Stop and frisk --13

If you14 could try to wrap it up.15

I'll wrap it up.16 We need to fight poverty. You17 want to abolish crime, not just stop it18 and hold it down, you want to abolish it?19 Good jobs, good schools, that's what you20 need to do. It's an attack on the poor.21 Stop and frisk is a Jim Crow law. That's22 what it is, and the Green Party stands23 against that.24 (Applause.)25 222 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Thank2 you. Thank you both for your testimony.3 Thank you. I'm sorry to rush4 you along, but, again, there's a lot of5 people, and as you can see, some people6 have already left because they couldn't7 wait.8 The next ones I have on my9 list, Basiymah Bey, is she here? I'm10 sorry again if I mispronounce a name.11 Abdus Sabur. Is that you, sir?12

Yes.13

Okay.14 Christopher Brown, is Christopher Brown15 here?16 (No response.)17 (Witness approached witness18 table.)19 COUNCILMAN GREENLEE:20 Mr. Sabur, why don't you start. Just21 identify yourself for the record and22 proceed. I understand Ms. Bey may be in23 the hallway. So, please, start.24

Good afternoon.25 223 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Good2 afternoon.3

My name is Abdus4 Sabur. I was told to come at 10 o'clock.5

Well, the6 hearing started at 10 o'clock, sir.7 That's why I'm trying to move people8 along.9

I know.10 We heard a whole lot about the11 Police Department. I just want to add a12 little bit to it.13 My son, Askia Sabur, was14 traumatized by the Police Department. He15 suffered six staples in the back of his16 head from a beat-down by the 19th17 District police officer. Myself, I18 charged the other police officers that19 was with him to be irresponsible in not20 stopping him.21 I'm really concerned, being a22 citizen of Philadelphia, the City of23 Brotherly Love, as one of the gentlemen24 said, that's not too brotherly nor25 224 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 sisterly. I have some serious concerns.2 I have concerns about how the police are3 not being fair dealing with the people4 that pay their salary. I too would like5 to see some kind of law in place by the6 City Council to change some of these7 attitudes and behaviors. One of the ways8 you can start, as far as I'm concerned,9 you could stop the drop and frisk10 situation, and, two, you can lock up the11 cops that's mistreating the citizens of12 Philadelphia.13 (Applause.)14

I don't understand.15 I just can't get it. I'm trying very,16 very hard to contain myself. It's a very17 emotional situation. If any of you have18 sons and your son has been beat down by19 somebody that you think is supposed to20 protect them, you tell me how you feel.21 (Applause.)22

I'm not college23 like you people. You people are college.24 I went to Ben Franklin and I quit because25 225 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 I wanted a job. I wanted something else2 in my life. I wanted to be a man in my3 life, but you people beat my child down4 and think that he's supposed to accept5 it.6 If you got a cop that's wrong,7 get rid of them, because he's no good for8 the Police Department.9 (Applause.)10

Do you understand?11 I would like to see something better, and12 right now I don't see it.13 Police brutality in14 Philadelphia is at an all-time high, and15 you want to sugarcoat it and make it seem16 like nothing is going on. It is going17 on. Racism is going on in America. Not18 just in Philadelphia but in America, all19 over, and you need to stop it, if you20 have any power. Otherwise, you're just21 puppets on a string dancing by a mensural22 man that's behind you.23 (Applause.)24

That's what I'm25 226 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 talking about. Yes, I'm a member of the2 nation of Islam. You might wonder where3 is the Muslims at in all of this? Their4 children are getting beat. Well, I'm5 standing up, and I'm standing up for my6 child, my family and myself, and if you7 got any gumption, you'll stop all this8 here namby-pamby talking around around9 here and do something about the police10 officers that are not doing anything for11 the people in the City of Philadelphia.12 Do you have any questions for13 me?14 (Applause.)15

Ms. Bey.16 Ms. Bey, you want to testify?17

No questions?18

The gentleman asked19 is there any questions for him, sir.20

There21 wasn't. There wasn't any. Ms. Bey,22 please.23

Just a moment, sir.24 What I will not condone, brother, sir, is25 227 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to sit here and be adopting to a rude2 form of introduction. The gentleman was3 speaking, and if you are finished with4 him, I think appropriately so, then5 someone need to say to him that there is6 no more questions for him.7

As we did8 in all --9

I will not speak over10 him without him being dismissed.11

As we did12 in all panels, ma'am, we waited for the13 panels to finish and then we ask14 questions. We did that --15

So that is the16 process. He didn't know that. He's17 asking did anybody have any questions.18

If there19 are any questions after both of you are20 finished, the Councilmembers will ask.21

Thank you, sir,22 for --23

Please24 identify --25 228 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Thank you, sir, for2 addressing it.3

Please4 identify yourself for the record and5 proceed, please.6

My name is Basiymah7 Muhammad Bey. 15 I was first brought into police16 brutality at the age of 12 years old. My17 father told me the next time, turn my18 head. 1 for our community since I was a child,2 and I'm still an advocate. Today I sit3 as the Fourth Assistant President-General4 to the World Body of UNIA. 7 I'm here today to testify on8 behalf of my family. My daughter, my9 son, my children, my husband have all10 been violated by the 22nd, 23rd Police11 District where I reside at now in the12 Philadelphia area. We were told that13 this process would not go back but for14 five years. 18 The police ran in my home19 trying to give my son a burglary case,20 but because his name is Kassim Muhammad,21 they wanted to make him have a case. He22 never had a case in his life. At 2123 years old he never had a record. 1 fought it. Fortunately, we had some2 police officers that was in our house who3 did not act as ugly as the others. 6 But they did come back. They7 came back and they drug my husband8 outside. They drug my children down the9 steps, my nephew, who I raised, student10 at Strawberry Mansion High School, "A"11 student, never had a problem with the12 police in his life was drugged out of his13 house. We were raided by hoodwinks, I14 like to call them, but you all call them15 the -- what's that hit list? I'm sorry,16 but I'm lost for names. When they come17 in with those shotguns, level one, level18 two, level three? 19 SWAT team came in my home and injected my20 young nephew, who had never had a case in21 his life, took him, falsified his age,22 falsified his crime, took him out of our23 house and sent him up on State Road for24 six months. Why? 1 most families within the African2 community don't have $2,500 to throw out3 every time they come in and snatch one of4 us up. 6 They came back. They came back7 for my son, Kassim Muhammad, who had no8 charges, and they brought him and dragged9 him through the courts. 11 Just recently, two years ago,12 my daughter, Tayyaba Muhammad, was13 brutally beat by the police officers in14 the Center City area. They drug my15 daughter up and down the street. 4 My husband at the time went and5 hired a lawyer. We won our case. 9 They wanted us to identify ourself again10 just for the record. 15 I was stunned. 18 One and one is two. You don't19 need to read between the lines. 1 there is not enough information in our2 community about this situation. 6 We went to the Clerk Court,7 only to find out that there was just four8 little measly ads that went out in the9 newspaper that identified that these10 hearings will go on. Four. 12 It is appalling to me as a13 mother and certainly as an advocate that14 when Commissioner Ramsey and his team was15 to go out in the community and speak to16 the people, you seen it all over17 everywhere. 19 Where's our City Council20 representing us as a people? )24

I made personal calls25 234 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to some City Council members asking them2 for their support to help us to put the3 information out in their areas to their4 constituents, and they reassured me that5 once the hearings go down, that it would6 be advertised in the paper.7 My concern is that advertising,8 that's not enough. We need a press9 conference. We need the City of10 Philadelphia representatives to say to11 the people that we are with you, that12 this is what we are doing.13 This today to me -- and14 somebody have to tell me when my time is15 up, because I'm longwinded and I started16 off by saying I got a lot on my mind.17

I didn't18 want to interrupt you, ma'am, but your19 time is up.20

Well, please give me21 a second, sir. I'll close out with this.22

Okay.23

When you sit here and24 you ask for the representatives to listen25 235 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to the people, where are the people at?2 No, we're not here. This is a drop in3 the bucket of what is being bombarded4 with the abuse that goes on inside of our5 community.6 I called the Hispanic7 community. Where's the8 representatives -- where is Fumos and all9 of the Hispanic representatives for the10 people in this city? Why isn't the11 Hispanic community sitting at these12 tables? Why aren't they calling -- we're13 not having no ethnico separation to be14 able to get heard. This is the15 constituents of Philadelphia's concerns16 and complaints.17 When I met with Ramsey's18 officer -- Commissioner Ramsey when he19 first came to the City of Philadelphia at20 William Penn High School, I looked that21 gentleman in his eye and I hoped that he22 would read my sincerity. Sir, we need23 not to have the continuous brutal24 relationship with the police officers in25 236 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 your term. We need a stop to this. If2 he would listen and took in consideration3 that the people are not just always,4 Well, I'm for the police officers. I'm5 not always right. I have five children6 and two that I raised. We're not always7 right, so we have to be reprimanded.8 Aren't we, Brother Abdus?9 If the police officers are a10 problem, remove them. This has to stop.11 If they would have listened to us way12 beforehand, Askia Sabur would not be a13 victim of the brutal police talent that14 we have been seeing in this city and15 longer than I have been a young child.16 I'm here today. I would not17 leave. This is deplorable. We sat up18 here. We listened to all of this. The19 people called for this. This was20 supposed to be the people's hearing. We21 had to go through the whole entire22 morning of a structure of every City23 official in the house. You got every24 representative of the Police Department25 237 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 right here, every last one of them.2 Whichever one don't care to handle, the3 other one there to back them up.4 This is not no charade. They5 know what time it is. They know what's6 going on with our city. Look what7 happened to Jewell Williams, Jannie8 Blackwell, and the list goes on and on9 and on. This have to stop. Represent or10 get off the pot.11

Ma'am --12 (Applause.)13

If there's any14 questions, I will wait for Brother Abdus.15

Okay. I16 know Councilmembers have questions. Just17 for the record, there were press releases18 sent out to all the various media outlets19 on this. It's up to them obviously20 whether they cover it, but there were21 notices, I know, given out on the radio,22 because I've heard them.23 Hold on one second.24 And also just to let you know,25 238 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 sir, we appreciate your testimony. You2 know, there cannot be comment officially3 on any case that's under investigation4 right now.5

I'm not looking for6 a comment.7

Okay.8

I just wanted to --9 I wanted to vent my situation.10

No. I11 understand.12

And I also want to13 thank Councilman Curtis Jones, who is a14 dear friend of mine, and I respect him15 greatly, and Councilwoman Donna Reed16 Miller, I thank you and I thank you. I17 thank you as well, dear brother. But18 something has to be done.19

No. I20 understand.21

We can't live like22 this, because it appears to me that the23 Police Department, if they continue on24 going on the way that they're going,25 239 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 they're facing a situation that's going2 to be very, very critical. It's going to3 be very, very critical. We need to be4 more together as opposed to being apart.5 Because, I mean, the scare tactics that I6 was hearing from one of the7 representatives from FOP talking about8 them afraid to go home, I mean, they'll9 be scared in the streets, working in the10 streets and they might not go home. I11 mean, I'd be scared to go outside. I may12 not be able to go outside because of the13 Police Department may shoot at somebody14 and a stray bullet will hit me.15 I mean, these are the things16 that go on in our city, and it shouldn't17 be. It shouldn't be.18 I mean, I hope I have said19 something that touched some people's20 mind, maybe not your heart but touched21 your mind, and we need the right-minded22 people out here serving us in the City of23 Philadelphia.24 Thank you.25 240 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 (Applause.)2

Thank you,3 Madam Chair.4

Does anyone have any5 questions?6

Yeah. I was7 going to ask you a question.8

I'm sorry.9

That's all10 right.11 First of all, on behalf of12 myself, I feel your pain as a father.13 Don't and can't talk about the14 circumstances with the case, but no one15 wants their child abused. And to16 whatever pain that is, I offer my17 personal apology.18 I would like to know, if there19 were three things that you could20 recommend to this body that you'd like to21 see changed -- and I mentioned to the22 Police Department, attitudes are harder23 to change. What laws, rules would you24 recommend to us to consider changing, or25 241 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 processes? I mean, share that with us2 for the record.3

That's a fantastic4 question. I think we covered it since5 the testimonies and whatnot been going6 on. The Philadelphia Police Department7 and others have to get to know their8 constituents, have to get to know the9 people. You want to have a relationship10 with the people, but I don't think you're11 going to get that if people are being12 beat down in the street. You have to13 kind of like reevaluate how you want to14 deal with the people.15 I don't know the answer, to be16 perfectly honest with you. I don't even17 know your process in here. I saw a18 caucus room where you go and talk next19 door, but the police also have a caucus20 room. It's called their district, and21 some people, whatever they learned in22 school, when they get out of school, they23 say you can throw all that away. You24 know, this is the real world. This is25 242 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 how we handle criminals, and in most2 cases, the criminals are my next-door3 neighbor, you know, or some other young4 person.5 I think we have to stop all the6 foolishness that we're doing. Whether7 you black, white or candy-striped, it8 don't make no difference. You got to be9 a human being first. You got people10 talking about, Well, I'm white and -- you11 got to be a human being first, you know.12 We all have that.13 And, I mean, I really don't14 have the answer. Maybe at some other15 point in time talking with other people16 and getting some ideas I could sit with17 you and maybe some other Councilpeople18 and maybe we can come up with a plan that19 we can execute.20

Because21 that's very important to us.22 Councilwoman Miller, myself and all the23 members of this Committee want this not24 to be just an exercise in venting, but25 243 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 what I think we are sincerely trying to2 do is look at the policy and figure out3 what can be changed for the better, what4 can be changed so that you understand the5 rules, we understand the process and to6 do something substantive so that -- you7 said since you were eight years old.8

Twelve years old.9

Twelve years10 old. I don't want my grand-kids growing11 up in that kind of environment or sense12 of mistrust. I want them to be safe,13 safe from people in the community and14 safe from those sent to the community to15 protect them, and that's what I want as a16 human being.17

Could we possibly18 have a meeting later on down the road --19 it don't have to be tomorrow -- and we20 can talk over some things? Could we have21 some grassroot people that we can get22 together, we can talk over some things?23 It's very important. And if we have a24 representative of the Police Department25 244 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 to be there, somebody that's sincere2 that's going to get the information out3 and he's not going to be looked at as4 though he's a detriment to the gang.5 That's the way they perpetrate6 themselves, as a gang, you know, and it7 ain't -- it's not good. It's not good.8 You got to come up with some other kind9 of stuff.10

May I interject for a11 moment just on that same question? I12 think in a real form of reality is that13 the relationship that we've had with --14 and I speak on "we" as the black15 community in particular, but in general,16 the exercising of format that the police17 use against the people need to be looked18 at.19 You all asked quite a bit of20 questions up here in terms of process and21 procedures of handling different things,22 but the bottom line is is that I think23 one of the first things that came to my24 mind is that we've been talking about25 245 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 stop and frisk. Before that, we was2 talking about driving while black.3 Before that there, it was because you was4 just black.5 So whenever we look at these6 situations that we see generation to7 generation that we get new stereotypes8 and titles to continue on the oppression9 that goes on with the people, then I say10 that we have to look at us as people and11 stop looking at us as slaves in the City.12 And this is the working relationship that13 we've always had with the Police14 Department. The last 30 years or so15 we've had black police officers that has16 been hired throughout the City of17 Philadelphia, our way in history in terms18 of the numbers, some of my families and19 friends who have joined in on the police20 forces, but nothing has changed. The21 brutal beat-down that goes on in the 22nd22 District, just recently a medical doctor23 at Temple University, his family member,24 he allowed us to know, was arrested in25 246 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 the 22nd District and had a nightstick2 shoved up his rectum. Well, I was upset3 about that, but it was certainly nothing4 new to my ear. I grew up with that type5 of misbehavior and brutal behavior6 towards our people.7 So I think the Police8 Department needs to be re-advised. We9 got this whole thing is, you tell the10 people that we must tell. We got to stop11 this don't snitch. But I got a problem,12 because inside the Police Department we13 have a sophisticated code that's called14 code of silence. They don't tell them to15 snitch, but they know they better not.16 So I'm saying, you can sit here17 and watch what happened to Sabur, Askia18 Sabur, and you had all those police19 officers standing around, not one20 officer, not one officer threw they body21 on that brother, took the risk for what22 was right. Nobody didn't say that every23 last one of them was going to be24 prosecuted for conspiracy to assassinate25 247 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 this brother's child.2 So the working relationship of3 how it deals with us as constituents and4 the privileges that the police have to5 beat, maim and sometime even kill us has6 to be looked at. Something wrong with7 the whole analysis.8 We are human beings. We're not9 dogs. We're not slaves. We have more10 black electoral officials representing us11 in this time and this day than we've ever12 had in history. Look what we dealing13 with. Why isn't this room filled up?14 When we had those meetings where the City15 officials came out to speak to us, you16 can't tell me about no little newspaper17 article or they only went out to -- you18 had massive advertising going on, because19 you wanted the people to hear and be20 pacified from the police officer's21 strokes. Well, we're saying that we want22 the people to hear that they have a right23 to stand up against those licks and24 lashes that they get, and that the City25 248 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Council should have came along with us as2 advocates and said to us that we stand3 with you on these concerns and we will4 have a press conference and allow the5 people know that the City Council is6 representing the very best interests of7 the constituents. They have to start by8 being honest and being real about what9 we're dealing with.10

Speaking of honest,11 I just wanted to ask in regards to12 Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller in regards13 to this 2009 Bill 080795, what does that14 give the police officers in regards to an15 Executive Order?16

I'm17 sorry, sir. I don't know bills by18 numbers.19

That's good. Me20 and you in the same --21

It's just22 too many numbers to remember, too many23 bills. I'd have to read it actually.24

It's an Executive25 249 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 Order in regards to the drop, stop and2 frisk situation. I think that's3 something that we need to ponder over and4 see if we can do some alteration in5 regards to that and possibly maybe change6 the format or maybe have some other7 peoples involved in it.8

Okay. I9 want to call on Councilman Clarke,10 because he has to leave. I don't want to11 miss your point. Earlier you did say12 something about meeting, and I think13 that's probably a good idea.14

Yes. No doubt.15 I'm for it.16

All17 right. Councilman Clarke.18

Thank you,19 Councilwoman.20 With respect to what you just21 referenced, if it's an Executive Order,22 it's not a bill. The Executive Order is23 issued by the Administration without24 involvement of City Council.25 250 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1

Okay. I see.2

I know that3 one bill that we did pass was the4 creation of, per the Mayor's request, for5 certain emergency powers, but that6 related to things like floods and7 emergency, but nothing related to police.8 And that was a concern. We were asked to9 do that. We wanted to make sure that it10 had nothing to do with the citizens of11 the City of Philadelphia.12

Well, I just wanted13 to say that. If it's one thing, it may14 turn out to be something other. So I15 think you have to be specific.16

Yeah, but17 it was nothing that we -- I just wanted18 to -- I want to reference the fact that19 there were some concerns about our20 process, Council today, and I actually21 heard early on in the day by a couple of22 residents in the audience about the fact23 that Council was kind of monopolizing the24 level of conversation, and it is right25 251 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 that this was characterized as an2 opportunity for people to come in and3 talk about the concerns that they had4 about the relationships with the police,5 and one of the things that Councilmembers6 do, we do listen. In spite of the fact7 that some people don't think that we do,8 we do listen. And in deference to the9 Chair, my assumption is that, one, there10 will be follow-up subsequent11 conversations in a very public way, one,12 because the Police Department has13 indicated there are a number of things14 that they're prepared to do and are in15 the process of doing, and we'd like to16 have that documented in some response in17 a very public way.18 Two, I think that we need to19 review all of the information that's been20 put before us today and, most recently,21 the conversation about having a separate22 dialogue.23

Yes, sir.24

And I think25 252 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 the next level of public conversation2 should -- although we want to encourage3 people to continue to talk about these4 issues, it should probably have some5 portions of it to be a solutions-based6 type of public dialogue, because at the7 end of the day, the fact that, as you8 say, we continue -- Basiymah, since you9 were 12 years old. We grew up in the10 same neighborhood, so I understand the11 concern. At some point, we got to get a12 handle on this. At some point, we have13 to set a timeline on resolution to this.14 We can't just keep talking about it and15 talking about it --16

Exactly.17

-- coming18 up with ideas and nothing ever happens,19 because I don't want my kids and you20 all's kids to be sitting here.21 So I agree with that22 wholeheartedly, and I know that23 Councilmembers are committed either in24 this format or in another format.25 253 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 One of the things that we as2 Council did understand throughout a lot3 of the budget problems, there were a lot4 of cuts early on. We understood that we5 had to get out of this building and go6 out there in the neighborhoods, and we7 had very successful hearings out there8 where a lot of people felt real9 comfortable coming to a church or some10 other place within their area.11 So not speaking for the Chair,12 but I think that we will be prepared to13 be accommodating in terms of being able14 to have that conversation out in the15 neighborhood.16

One brick by brick.17 You know, one at a time. It doesn't18 matter, as long as we're building the19 right house.20

Okay. All21 right. But I just want to thank you all22 for your testimony.23

No. Thank you.24 Thank you for allowing us to come before25 254 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 you, and I'm just looking forward to2 meeting.3

Right.4 And I just want to say too that we thank5 you for coming in, not just you but6 everybody for coming in. Unfortunately,7 these hearings take a long time.8

Yes, they do.9

And it's10 not that anybody has abused the11 three-minute testimony, because they12 really haven't. It's just that we have a13 lot of questions.14

Of course.15

But I do16 want you to know that your testimony did17 not fall on deaf ears.18

Well, I thank you.19

And20 that's one of the reasons -- and also21 Sister Bey here, and everybody actually.22 And as Councilman said, we will be23 reviewing the notes of testimony to see24 what we really need to follow up on and25 255 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 figure out next steps. But this is not2 the last time.3 We've had something very4 similar to -- I think it was Sister Bey's5 suggestion before. We've had meetings.6 We've had discussions with the police and7 the community regarding certain types of8 behavior. We do not condone, and we just9 have to keep working at this.10

Yes, ma'am.11

Back in12 the '70s, long before I became a13 Councilmember, I was very active with14 police issues up in Germantown. So we've15 been there, too.16

Yes, ma'am.17

Okay?18

You know, I'm just19 grateful. You know, Dave Richardson come20 to mind as being a great activist for us,21 you know.22

Well, you23 know, I used to work with Dave and for24 Dave, and when we organized a meeting, we25 256 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 thought maybe a couple hundred people2 would show up, and thousands showed up,3 which, you know, kind of shocked us,4 but...5

Hopefully it won't6 take a thousand.7

Right.8 We don't need to do that. That's why9 we're having these hearings. We don't10 want to get to that point. We want to11 begin to start mending.12

Thank you.13

Thank you14 for coming.15

Just before you all16 let us go, I did raise the concern about17 the Hispanic community. I'm just really18 concerned. I mean, out of all of our19 organizing, we have been reaching out to20 the Hispanic community, going in21 businesses, talking to them, finding out22 were they faced with the same thing. We23 knew that they were, but we wanted to get24 their unity and support what was going25 257 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 on. I mean, where are the representative2 at? I mean, where are the people at?3 This is like an ethnico screening.4 There's nothing in here but Africans5 complaining about the police brutality.6 We're not the only ones that's being7 abused in the City. We're certainly not8 the only constituents that are under the9 leadership of the City Council.10 So I just wanted to raise it.11 I mean, I don't know if you're going to12 answer now, but it certainly have to be13 addressed, like we cannot do this. If14 this is citywide, it is concern for the15 constituents of the City of Philadelphia,16 we need to pull the numbers in and the17 people need to unify. This is why we18 voted you all in, to represent our best19 interest.20 And so I just need to say that21 in my closing, and I thank you both very22 much. I mean, I know it's been23 difficult. We're not easy to get along24 with, because we will not allow Askia's25 258 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 case to be pushed up under the rug. As2 one of our brothers said, no broom to3 this. It will not be sweeped away. This4 is one process. We're still knocking.5 We will continue to be knocking, because6 Askia is one case. My daughter didn't7 get the publicity that's going on with8 Askia, who is a very, very dear loving9 brother to me, but I know there's10 numerous, hundreds and thousands of us11 who are being beaten and bruised by12 police every single day. And so the cry13 needs to come out from the14 representatives with some love that this15 is really a concern and not just a due16 process that has to go on.17 I thank you again very much.18

Thank19 you.20 (Applause.)21

Greg22 Brinkley, Sweit Adeen Muhammad. I just23 saw him.24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He'll be25 259 12/14/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 100722, ETC.1 back at 4:00.2

Four3 o'clock? Okay. What about the4 Shabazzes, Inas, Hannibal, Mikel?5 (Witnesses approached witness6 table.)7

Okay. So8 we've also been joined in Chamber by9 Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell.10

Thank11 you.12