COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC UTILITIES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, October 22, 2007 10:20 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN CAROL ANN CAMPBELL, CHAIR COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE RESOLUTION 070084 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold public hearings to determine what and how SEPTA is meeting the demands and the needs of the working public... RESOLUTION 070105 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold public hearings to investigate and determine why SEPTA has not and is not working to make the subway exits most adjacent to City Hall... RESOLUTION 070212 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to determine the safety of our public school children... V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good morning. Thank you all for coming. This is City Council's Committee on Transportation. We will be having testimony today on Bill 070084, 070105 and 070212. My name is Councilwoman Carol Ann Campbell and this is Councilman Bill 10 Greenlee. The first bill is resolution 12 authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold public hearings to determine what and how SEPTA is meeting the demands and the needs of the working public, especially the physically challenged and handicapped worker who relies on SEPTA for their transportation.
My name is Dorothy Ruffin. Concerning Resolution 070084, 3 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. I'd like to ask could SEPTA please make it clear to their operators that people that are challenged, when they ring the bell to get off, they let their APs get off, and me myself, sometimes I have to scream at the operator, I want to get off also, but the APs is often gone. Where I sit, I got to go a half a block before they let me off. I hope something can be done about that.
That's my biggest gripe. And the fact that people that are challenged can't automatically catch the subs, which is faster. Got to go on fixed routes. You ask if there was anything else? My head is just busting open with different things against SEPTA. I, being a challenged individual, catch CCT sometimes. They tell me I can only catch CCT in inclement weather. I've heard zip as far as being a meteorologist. I don't know if it's 4 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. going to rain or snow. The weather people guess at it and I guess at it. I got to call them and request a time schedule on the weatherman's prediction, but they tell me to wait until the day of. Waiting until the day of, Oh, you're too late, can't take you. That frustrates me. I try to get to the fixed routes because I don't like the frustration. I mean, I thought it was not inconvenient but a service that challenged individuals could use. I don't have anything else I want to say.
Michelle McCandless. MS. McCANDLESS: (Witness 5 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. speaking without microphone.)
She has to go around behind that. MS. McCANDLESS: I'm sorry.
Your name, please. MS. McCANDLESS: Michelle McCandless. Maybe this is a little bit different, but we work as advocates. Our jobs are a little bit different. We go from place to place. So our jobs cost us to go from one location to another, and they tell us that we can only have our job at one location. So when we have to go from one location to another and we still say it's part of our job, they don't want to hear it. We only have --
Wait a minute. Just a minute, please. Who doesn't want to hear it? MS. McCANDLESS: SEPTA. They only have one location as your job. They don't want to hear that you have to still 6 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. go to another location as part of your job. So if you have to go to another meeting at another location and you're still trying to get your SEPTA route for that location, you can't do it. And you have -- it's still part of your employment and you only have SEPTA rides for your employment, it's not considered. You have to use a regular SEPTA bus. You can't use CCT.
Why is that? MS. McCANDLESS: It's a rule on SEPTA. If you only can use SEPTA -- CCT for your employment, it's a rule that you can only use it back and forth for your job for one location. They've done that to a lot of people.
I can't understand. They did that for what? MS. McCANDLESS: Say you only can use SEPTA to go back and forth to Liberty. I'll use that for an example. Liberty is your only location. If you 7 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. have to go to a meeting, say, to City Hall, you have to ride City Hall by SEPTA.
You mean regular public transportation? MS. McCANDLESS: You have to use regular public transportation. And a lot of us are advocates and we have to go to nursing homes and we have to go to other meetings throughout the City. Another thing is, some of us have to go to doctors' appointments 8:30 in the morning, and if we try to get rides as people are going to work, we can't get them. We have to wait until about 10:30, 11 o'clock in order to get rides, because a job -- people are going to jobs. A lot of times I have to inform bus drivers I have seizures, and that's the only way I get to stay on CCT. I even had to inform CCT that I had seizures after I had them in front of the CCT Board. 8 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. A lot of people have been kicked off of CCT even though they have struggled, only because they had electric wheelchairs and still struggled to get to the buses and still had problems driving them. Some people --
Just a minute. What do you mean they were kicked off? MS. McCANDLESS: CCT doesn't even have them properly trained. People are still petrified of driving them, using SEPTA. They use their trainers for one day, their people, not properly trained.
You mean the drivers? MS. McCANDLESS: No; their doctors, their therapists for one day to diagnose us that we are ready for SEPTA.
They decided -- MS. McCANDLESS: They decide, not we. It should be our choice, not 9 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. theirs. They predict by weather, not us. They only provide one day, and that's if they have the vans that could provide us with rides. Sometimes drivers do not put belts on us. Sometimes belts are broken and they don't secure us. If they put one belt out of four, sometimes the belts fall off. Sometimes they put the lift that are ramps out in the street and they're too steep.
Would you repeat that about the ramp? MS. McCANDLESS: That they put them down on the street and they're just too steep. The only reason I know of these things is because I used to do the training. They say, Put your brakes on. There are no brakes on these chairs. SEPTA is supposed to provide everybody with belts by law. A lot of consumers don't know this.
Do they secure the chair? 10 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. MS. McCANDLESS: A lot of times, no, unless you ask for the belts.
You mean it's not automatically done? MS. McCANDLESS: It's not automatic, no. Some drivers will; some drivers won't. Some people know about it; some people don't.
Say, for instance, if there were quite a few people on the bus in wheelchairs. You're telling me that maybe none of them are strapped in? MS. McCANDLESS: A lot of them aren't strapped in. You can ask a lot of people here. This is only mine. A lot of my brothers and sisters sitting here could tell you. I'm only one of many.
What happens when you hit a bump? MS. McCANDLESS: I move. I'm going to let my other brothers and sisters do their testimony now. 11 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Ma'am, just a couple quick questions, if I could. One, a general one. Have you had as an advocate any meetings with SEPTA to address these issues? MS. McCANDLESS: Yes.
What's that dialogue been like, if you could generally say? MS. McCANDLESS: A protest. I've even had a seizure in front of SEPTA in order to get back on paratransit.
I guess what I'm saying, other than a protest, I mean, have you or anybody like you ever sat down with SEPTA, gone over these problems? 12 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. MS. McCANDLESS: We've had many meetings with SEPTA and it has gone nowhere.
On the employment issue that you first addressed, so you're saying that they want you to say every day, I'll be going to 1234 Market Street or something. You can't say, I'm going to a different place each day. Is that what you're saying? MS. McCANDLESS: We have to call a day in advance, and many times if we call a day in advance, we do not get the rides that we need. They say the rule is call a day in advance.
Right. MS. McCANDLESS: Many times when you do, you do not get the ride you need. If you get a ride, it would probably get -- you would probably get the scheduled ride either an hour, two hours later than what you schedule.
But what I'm not clear on is your first statement 13 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. was about being -- you go to different places for -- MS. McCANDLESS: If you do it by work, you can't reschedule your work. Say you're going to City Council and it's a type of employment. They will not -- if you're working, if it's an employment type thing, if you're just -- if you got paratransit for employment only, you can't reschedule that employment paratransit for another location, no. 13
So if you have it for employment, you have to go the same place -- MS. McCANDLESS: And you have it scheduled for paratransit only?
Yes. MS. McCANDLESS: Say you're just scheduled for Liberty employment. You can only go to Liberty for that employment. You can't schedule it to go to City Hall for employment that day.
Now, when you have it for employment, does that 14 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. operate the same way? You schedule it each day in advance, or you do that as part of a long-range schedule, I guess? MS. McCANDLESS: It's a long-range schedule.
It's a long-range schedule. And they tell you you only can have one destination if you're doing it long range? MS. McCANDLESS: You can only have one destination.
And you're saying that doesn't meet your needs or people like you because you could go different places each day or couple days, that kind of thing? MS. McCANDLESS: Yeah.
All right. MS. McCANDLESS: If you have a meeting and it's for your type of employment, you're screwed.
Okay. MS. McCANDLESS: Sorry for 15 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. using that type of language, but --
We understand what you mean. Thank you, Madam Chair.
My name is Thaddeus Robinson and I'm a member of the SEPTA Advisory Committee for Accessible Transportation and I'm the Chairperson of the Policies and Planning Committee of the SEPTA Advisory Committee of Accessible Transportation. The SAC is an independent advisory committee of SEPTA. We've been -- SAC has been around for over years. We're independent of 23 SEPTA. We run our own meetings. We 24 elect our own members. We receive no 25 funding from SEPTA whatsoever. So we are 16 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. free to say how we feel about the SEPTA service. And also there's some misconceptions here I want to correct for the record. Number one, concerning the seat belts on the buses, seat belt use is not mandatory under the ADA regulations. Seat belt use is optional. If the person in a wheelchair wants to use a seat belt, they have to ask an operator or the operator asks a person if they want to use the seat belt. Wearing a seat belt on a bus is not required. And concerning additional eligibility, that's also an ADA requirement, that every person has to be certified every three to five years to use CCT Connect. I am considered conditionally eligible. So I can only use SEPTA -- I mean CCT when it rains or snows. Like today I couldn't use CCT. So I came here by the bus. The people are not being thrown off. Technically they're being recertified, and that is a 17 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. federal requirement under ADA. Do you have any questions? I'm free to answer.
Yeah. Number one, I understand that seat belts are not mandatory, but every wheelchair does not always have brakes or does not have good brakes.
So when they're on this bus, how are those wheelchairs secured?
Like I said, under the ADA, the driver is not required to put the seat belt on, but the driver is required to ask --
Wait a minute. That wasn't what I asked. I didn't say about the driver. I just asked a simple question, that when the wheelchair is on the bus, sometimes brakes do not work on chairs. Some chairs don't have brakes. I merely asked how are those wheelchairs secured. 18 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
On every bus there's four wheelchair securements. Now, the driver is required to use those securements. Now, if the driver, he doesn't use securements, I think the customer should ask the driver to put them on the wheelchair. If the driver doesn't, then the customer should report him to customer service.
It varies. I mean, some drivers put all four on and some drivers only put one on. It's an enforcement issue.
I understand. Is it enforced, say, 50 percent of the time?
Well, you know, if the person -- if the customer files a complaint, then the driver is 19 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. reinstructed on how they use the securements.
Okay. Tell me this: When you're on the bus, what is the normal amount of persons in wheelchairs that are on there when you're on there?
Every bus has two wheelchair spaces, per the ADA requirement.
Okay. Do you feel that there's a need for another form of transportation for people in wheelchairs?
As in like by SEPTA? Do you think that maybe the system is remiss that they don't have adequate transportation for the needs of people?
Well, if we had 20 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. wheelchair-accessible cabs, I think that would be another option, but the way things are going in Harrisburg, that's not going to happen no time soon.
But do you think the buses that they have now is adequate --
Even though my understanding here from the prior testimony is that if suddenly you woke up in the morning and you had a fever and you weren't doing too well and you needed to get to the doctor or the hospital, you would have to go on public transportation because you wouldn't be able to get the other bus?
Well, usually people get charged for that. 21 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Everyone can't afford to pay that bill.
I was asking. I wasn't suggesting. I asked you did you feel that the system that's in place now with the vehicles that they have, is it adequate for the wheelchair community? Is it sufficient? That's what I was asking you.
Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, the bus is 100 percent wheelchair accessible. I mean, the only exception is the trackless trolleys, and they would become wheelchair accessible starting in March of next year. SEPTA just ordered 38 new trackless trolleys. And a couple weeks ago some of the members from the SAC went on a test ride on the new trackless trolley.
Thank you, Madam Chair. 22 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Just one question, sir, on the CCT issue, the certification issue.
Can you just generally say what the criteria is? I know there's certain people that can only go when it's inclement weather and other people can schedule more permanent or continuing schedule. What is the basic breakdown?
It's inclement weather, architectural barriers, like lack of sidewalks, lack of curb cuts, uneven streets. You either have to go up or down a steep hill or you have to cross a dangerous intersection.
So if you have to do those things, you could be eligible for a continuing CCT service?
Is that basically it? Okay. So I didn't hear on that. It's not actually the person's disability; it's more like the 23 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. environment or the conditions?
It depends on your capability of getting to and from a bus stop.
Okay. All right. I mean, I'm sure you have to meet some physical requirements too, because you said --
Not really, no. 11 It's your ability to get to and from the bus stop.
So when you're saying when they're reevaluated each, I think you said, three to five years, something like that?
So they're really investigating the accessibility issue that you just -- the availability to get the buses, not the person's physical disability?
No, I'm right that that's what they do? 24 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
All right. I guess that's it for now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
My name is German Parodi. There are a number of problems, issues, concerning SEPTA and its -- the ways that they do things and how they view the disabled community. Beginning on the subway, the elevated train, they have a number of disabled-accessible stops. Now, they just made the 8th stop accessible for the El and they just have an elevator going on the southbound. On the northbound the elevator there is owned by PATCO, but there's the El there 25 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. also. That elevator breaks regularly. I would say every two weeks it doesn't work. And I've called it in to SEPTA. They say, Oh, that's PATCO's elevator. We cannot do anything about it. But you still have a train running by there. Shouldn't they have any type of responsibility, either them talking to PATCO or themselves about this elevator?
Going northbound. They just did this going southbound. That belongs to SEPTA and it's pretty new. I would say like two months ago they opened that one. Now going northbound, that elevator there belongs to PATCO, but the El runs under there. And my problem is, if you have a train going through there, why don't you also do some type of inclusion with keeping it 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. working for us who work and have to catch it? If not, I have to go up to either 13th Street or 2nd Street, and that's a problem. At least I find that a problem.
I've called PATCO and they say it will be working in two or three days, and which it normally does, but nonetheless, those two or three days I have to change my regular way. Why can't SEPTA see if they can work something out? And I say that, again, because SEPTA has trains running there also. On the buses, yes, we already heard about belts, and I don't know, but I agree with whatever he has to say that if the person wishes them on, they should put them on and say something. But I do have an issue with the drivers not 27 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. letting people in wheelchairs on, which I've seen regularly. Yeah, perhaps the bus is a little bit full. There's still space on the back. The driver says, I can't take you, and rolls on, or they just don't stop and just keep on going. They've done that to me two weeks ago, which I did call it in. But there should be some type of disability awareness or training for these drivers that should let them know that there's a space there for disabled people and he should stop for them. Ms. Dorothy Ruffin also spoke about this.
Well, at least for me, yes. I mean, a week ago I was by the 7th Street, Market and 7th, and a driver came and opened the door, say, Oh, wait for the next one. Why don't you tell 28 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. everybody else wait for the next one? I don't want to call this discrimination. That's a pretty big word, but nonetheless, what is he doing, if there's spaces there and there's space on the back that he could tell the other people to move back to? Moreover, on the same subject, when the bus stops and there's a wheelchair there, I believe it's critical that the wheelchair should go in first. The driver opens the door. Everybody goes in. He doesn't ask them to stop or anything. I mean, then again, it goes with the whole disability awareness. I believe that the wheelchair should go in first, and I've read that in their protocol that they enforce it. I don't believe so. I haven't seen so. On CCT, on the eligibility part, they do check our medical history. The guy said they didn't, but they do ask for our medical history, our physical capabilities. And many times they have a 29 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. power chair and they get only rain and weather, but let's say the morning it's fine and you can schedule a ride because it's not supposed to rain. It rains in the afternoon. Why can't you call it in and ask for a ride if you're supposed to get rides when it's raining? In the morning, it wasn't raining. You didn't want to give me a ride. I call in the afternoon because it's pouring. How am I supposed to get home? I have a power chair. If I take it out in the rain, it's going to shut down. Are you going to come pick me up and push me? But nonetheless, they say you cannot make the same day ride. I believe that on these people that can make rides for the full day, there should be some type of option that they can make the ride if weather gets bad in the afternoon or whenever. My last subject is on buses and trains, many times they do not call out their stops, and that is a problem for those who are visually impaired who do 30 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. not see where the bus is. They're counting that bus and the train will call out the correct stop, but they don't, and that's -- at least I know for sure that on the El, it's a very regular problem. There was a bus that was going to Temple and I was riding with a visually impaired individual. If she wasn't with me, she would have gotten lost. She didn't know where it was, because the bus didn't call none of the stops when they do have that machine on. I don't know if it breaks or whatnot, but that's a problem, and I believe that should be addressed. Mainly if you're visually impaired, you don't know where you're going. And those are my main concerns at the moment with SEPTA.
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, sir, for your testimony. A couple of quick questions. 31 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Let me just go backwards from what you said. The calling out the stops, you're saying on the El and the subway, that's a problem?
Because I ride all that, and it seemed to me just off the top -- now, I don't maybe study it as closely as you do. I thought there was more of a problem with the buses on that, because that calling out on the buses seems to get off sometimes.
They're telling you they're at 27th Street when they're at 30th Street or something.
But to be fair, I didn't think that was the case on the subway or Els. It seems to be pretty good there. Now, again, I'm not looking at it as closely as you, so I'll defer to your judgment. 32 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
I cannot say the subway, because I do not ride the subway. I cannot testify on that. On the El, which I take daily, that is a problem. It's calling up Pratt and it's at Torresdale.
So they're telling you it's 8th Street when it's 15th Street or something, that kind of thing?
All right. Just on the CCT issue, again, so it sounds like you're disagreeing with Mr. Robinson, that there is a physical criteria? I didn't want to get into a debate. It would seem there would have to be something.
Yeah. I don't see him, but, yes. And I see a problem 33 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. because you send out the paperwork, they tell your doctor to sign it, and he said that there's no medical part. Then why does the doctor have to sign it?
So it's up to the doctor to determine if you meet certain criteria?
Both. They send it to your doctor to sign that you are disabled.
And then that paperwork is sent to SEPTA, and they have a group of interns who are the ones that at the end decide, yes, he is physically able or unable.
And that 34 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. SEPTA doctor can overrule your doctor; is that --
So in the end, it's the doctor that SEPTA uses that's the, as you see it --
They're interns. Not even a board of doctors. Interns. And I see that's a very, very problem with eligibility.
And in your opinion, you see people turned down that should not be?
Yes. I work for Liberty Resources and I would say out of the 5,000 consumers that we have, over 50 percent of them have problems with the eligibility part. That's a lot of people.
And the last thing, on another thing you mentioned on the CCT, so it's a nice sunny day at 8 o'clock in the morning. You go out. 35 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Two o'clock in the afternoon you're coming back. It's pouring rain. You can't get service because you hadn't done it the day before?
Yes. Or if you did it the day before, they will say, Well, the weather doesn't say it's going to rain. As we've seen, regularly the weather is not --
Especially I know in the summer every day they always say chance of an afternoon thunderstorm.
Yes, but you call it in and they say no because the weather is not.
I guess when SEPTA comes up, they can address that issue, but that doesn't -- I'm sure you agree with me. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, because it always --
No. I agree with 36 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. you.
And sometimes weather forecasts differ, too, I know.
When a person is rejected, is there an appeal process?
Yes. You can appeal it. I've had problems myself that I haven't gotten paperwork of the appeal, and just as Ms. Dorothy, the first person who testified, said, there's some people who are challenged in different ways that they might have some help applying for 37 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. it, but then the appeal comes and some people just can't understand, and that should be part of the whole evaluation on eligibility.
It's supposed to go before a board of SEPTA. You go in front of a few people from SEPTA.
I have a person here who actually has gone and appealed. Karen, may I ask you -- her name is Karen DiNardi, the lady right there. I'm not sure, but she knows. Would you like the correct answer? Is it a board of members of SEPTA or is it a third-party independent group? She's going to type it in her machine.
Thank 38 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. you very much. Thank you.
No. I understand. But at least somebody is going to have to come up or somebody is going to have to come up and answer. That's the only way it can get on the record.
She said third party. She says it's a third party that they appeal.
It's a third-party body? Does she know who sits on -- I mean, not the people, but where the people come from that sit on that board? 39 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. That's okay. I'll check it out. We'll research it and find out. Thank you very much.
Madam Chair, just for the record, this sounds like a similar process of what you go through when you do the -- apply for a handicapped parking spot. It's a kind of similar thing. The doctor has to -- there's a doctor that the City provides, I think, and then you can appeal.
Well, not really anymore. MS. DiNARDI: SEPTA picks them.
SEPTA picks who is on there. We can probably ask SEPTA about that.
Yes. My name is Tilli Ayala. And my concern is, first of all, as a healthy, able, walking citizen that I am, I can get on and off the bus with no problem. I have a family to get to and places to go to. I depend on SEPTA. My work, I work for Home Care Hospice. They purchase my bus pass. I'm thankful for that. But my friends, Jennifer Burns and Karen DiNardi, they're on wheelchairs. They also have families and jobs and important places to go to. There is no difference between myself, an able, walking citizen, and my good friends in the wheelchairs. We should all be able to ride on SEPTA. But I have noticed many times when I have been on SEPTA when the buses are full or nearly full, the driver will pull over and say, Wait for the next bus, and often times I have heard people on 41 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the bus say, Why can't they just ride their own buses? And it's just -- it's very, very degrading to see that bus drivers can do that to my friends in wheelchairs and -- I'm sorry. But I work with disabled people and I know what they go through, and it is just not right that SEPTA drivers could be so insensitive and just pass them by. I'm willing to get off the bus and let a person in a wheelchair ride. Can SEPTA do something to help them, to help them ride the buses? Maybe improve the system and prioritize the seats that are made for the wheelchairs that they have a right to get on? That's one concern. My next concern is smoking on buses. I'm referring to drivers. Bus 59 at Margaret-Orthodox, I have gotten on that bus many times and I have reported the SEPTA number where you complain about it. It's programmed on my cell phone. And nothing has been done. That same 42 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. driver still smokes on the bus, obviously during his break. Other buses as well. Drivers will smoke, and people with asthma have to smell that. My third complaint is, I have witnessed rude behavior by riders, including drug sales. The bus driver -- I have notified the driver. This has happened on Bus 66 going towards the Northeast. I have notified the driver -- well, I did notify the driver two weeks ago about that situation. The driver did nothing. I understand bus drivers are there to drive. They're not there to be policemen, but they have a right to help secure the riders in some form of way or the other. Could that be addressed?
Anything can be addressed. It's just the manner in which you do it. If it's drug 43 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. sales, that would be dealing with the Police Department about that. If it's rudeness, we would have to deal with SEPTA about the lack of sensitivity on behalf of the driver. But all of this we can deal with, trust me, and we shall.
Just quickly, ma'am, first of all, on the issue with any kind of police problem, I know -- and I guess Ms. Jones or whoever can address that, but I know that there is a mechanism that they can notify the police, and I've seen that happen. In fact, you'll see on the sign, it will say "Help, Police" or something like that. So there is a way they can do that. I can't obviously talk about the individual situation you were in, but I have seen where an operator can flag down a police officer. I've been on buses when that's happened. 44 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Just getting back real briefly on your issue of full or near full buses. I don't want to nitpick, but I guess that is a difference, because I know I see non-handicapped people also passed up sometimes when the bus is too full. Are you talking about when it's just a matter that they could move a little bit farther back and they're still turning those people down? Because I guess if a bus is totally full, in fairness, it's tough to get a handicapped person or a non-handicapped person on some buses. They just get too full.
I understand. That has happened. The driver should tell the people to move back, and usually that's the case.
And you're saying, in your opinion, they don't make that effort to try to accommodate? Is that what you're basically saying?
That's right. 45 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Have I missed anyone from the -- Joan, the Commissioner, I understand that you're going to testify on this.
Good morning. I'm Frances Jones, Assistant General Manager of Government Affairs at SEPTA.