COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC UTILITIES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, October 22, 2007 10:20 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN CAROL ANN CAMPBELL, CHAIR COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE RESOLUTION 070084 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold public hearings to determine what and how SEPTA is meeting the demands and the needs of the working public... RESOLUTION 070105 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold public hearings to investigate and determine why SEPTA has not and is not working to make the subway exits most adjacent to City Hall... RESOLUTION 070212 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to determine the safety of our public school children... V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good morning. Thank you all for coming. This is City Council's Committee on Transportation. We will be having testimony today on Bill 070084, 070105 and 070212. My name is Councilwoman Carol Ann Campbell and this is Councilman Bill 10 Greenlee. The first bill is resolution 12 authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold public hearings to determine what and how SEPTA is meeting the demands and the needs of the working public, especially the physically challenged and handicapped worker who relies on SEPTA for their transportation.
My name is Dorothy Ruffin. Concerning Resolution 070084, 3 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. I'd like to ask could SEPTA please make it clear to their operators that people that are challenged, when they ring the bell to get off, they let their APs get off, and me myself, sometimes I have to scream at the operator, I want to get off also, but the APs is often gone. Where I sit, I got to go a half a block before they let me off. I hope something can be done about that.
That's my biggest gripe. And the fact that people that are challenged can't automatically catch the subs, which is faster. Got to go on fixed routes. You ask if there was anything else? My head is just busting open with different things against SEPTA. I, being a challenged individual, catch CCT sometimes. They tell me I can only catch CCT in inclement weather. I've heard zip as far as being a meteorologist. I don't know if it's 4 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. going to rain or snow. The weather people guess at it and I guess at it. I got to call them and request a time schedule on the weatherman's prediction, but they tell me to wait until the day of. Waiting until the day of, Oh, you're too late, can't take you. That frustrates me. I try to get to the fixed routes because I don't like the frustration. I mean, I thought it was not inconvenient but a service that challenged individuals could use. I don't have anything else I want to say.
Michelle McCandless. MS. McCANDLESS: (Witness 5 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. speaking without microphone.)
She has to go around behind that. MS. McCANDLESS: I'm sorry.
Your name, please. MS. McCANDLESS: Michelle McCandless. Maybe this is a little bit different, but we work as advocates. Our jobs are a little bit different. We go from place to place. So our jobs cost us to go from one location to another, and they tell us that we can only have our job at one location. So when we have to go from one location to another and we still say it's part of our job, they don't want to hear it. We only have --
Wait a minute. Just a minute, please. Who doesn't want to hear it? MS. McCANDLESS: SEPTA. They only have one location as your job. They don't want to hear that you have to still 6 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. go to another location as part of your job. So if you have to go to another meeting at another location and you're still trying to get your SEPTA route for that location, you can't do it. And you have -- it's still part of your employment and you only have SEPTA rides for your employment, it's not considered. You have to use a regular SEPTA bus. You can't use CCT.
Why is that? MS. McCANDLESS: It's a rule on SEPTA. If you only can use SEPTA -- CCT for your employment, it's a rule that you can only use it back and forth for your job for one location. They've done that to a lot of people.
I can't understand. They did that for what? MS. McCANDLESS: Say you only can use SEPTA to go back and forth to Liberty. I'll use that for an example. Liberty is your only location. If you 7 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. have to go to a meeting, say, to City Hall, you have to ride City Hall by SEPTA.
You mean regular public transportation? MS. McCANDLESS: You have to use regular public transportation. And a lot of us are advocates and we have to go to nursing homes and we have to go to other meetings throughout the City. Another thing is, some of us have to go to doctors' appointments 8:30 in the morning, and if we try to get rides as people are going to work, we can't get them. We have to wait until about 10:30, 11 o'clock in order to get rides, because a job -- people are going to jobs. A lot of times I have to inform bus drivers I have seizures, and that's the only way I get to stay on CCT. I even had to inform CCT that I had seizures after I had them in front of the CCT Board. 8 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. A lot of people have been kicked off of CCT even though they have struggled, only because they had electric wheelchairs and still struggled to get to the buses and still had problems driving them. Some people --
Just a minute. What do you mean they were kicked off? MS. McCANDLESS: CCT doesn't even have them properly trained. People are still petrified of driving them, using SEPTA. They use their trainers for one day, their people, not properly trained.
You mean the drivers? MS. McCANDLESS: No; their doctors, their therapists for one day to diagnose us that we are ready for SEPTA.
They decided -- MS. McCANDLESS: They decide, not we. It should be our choice, not 9 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. theirs. They predict by weather, not us. They only provide one day, and that's if they have the vans that could provide us with rides. Sometimes drivers do not put belts on us. Sometimes belts are broken and they don't secure us. If they put one belt out of four, sometimes the belts fall off. Sometimes they put the lift that are ramps out in the street and they're too steep.
Would you repeat that about the ramp? MS. McCANDLESS: That they put them down on the street and they're just too steep. The only reason I know of these things is because I used to do the training. They say, Put your brakes on. There are no brakes on these chairs. SEPTA is supposed to provide everybody with belts by law. A lot of consumers don't know this.
Do they secure the chair? 10 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. MS. McCANDLESS: A lot of times, no, unless you ask for the belts.
You mean it's not automatically done? MS. McCANDLESS: It's not automatic, no. Some drivers will; some drivers won't. Some people know about it; some people don't.
Say, for instance, if there were quite a few people on the bus in wheelchairs. You're telling me that maybe none of them are strapped in? MS. McCANDLESS: A lot of them aren't strapped in. You can ask a lot of people here. This is only mine. A lot of my brothers and sisters sitting here could tell you. I'm only one of many.
What happens when you hit a bump? MS. McCANDLESS: I move. I'm going to let my other brothers and sisters do their testimony now. 11 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Ma'am, just a couple quick questions, if I could. One, a general one. Have you had as an advocate any meetings with SEPTA to address these issues? MS. McCANDLESS: Yes.
What's that dialogue been like, if you could generally say? MS. McCANDLESS: A protest. I've even had a seizure in front of SEPTA in order to get back on paratransit.
I guess what I'm saying, other than a protest, I mean, have you or anybody like you ever sat down with SEPTA, gone over these problems? 12 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. MS. McCANDLESS: We've had many meetings with SEPTA and it has gone nowhere.
On the employment issue that you first addressed, so you're saying that they want you to say every day, I'll be going to 1234 Market Street or something. You can't say, I'm going to a different place each day. Is that what you're saying? MS. McCANDLESS: We have to call a day in advance, and many times if we call a day in advance, we do not get the rides that we need. They say the rule is call a day in advance.
Right. MS. McCANDLESS: Many times when you do, you do not get the ride you need. If you get a ride, it would probably get -- you would probably get the scheduled ride either an hour, two hours later than what you schedule.
But what I'm not clear on is your first statement 13 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. was about being -- you go to different places for -- MS. McCANDLESS: If you do it by work, you can't reschedule your work. Say you're going to City Council and it's a type of employment. They will not -- if you're working, if it's an employment type thing, if you're just -- if you got paratransit for employment only, you can't reschedule that employment paratransit for another location, no. 13
So if you have it for employment, you have to go the same place -- MS. McCANDLESS: And you have it scheduled for paratransit only?
Yes. MS. McCANDLESS: Say you're just scheduled for Liberty employment. You can only go to Liberty for that employment. You can't schedule it to go to City Hall for employment that day.
Now, when you have it for employment, does that 14 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. operate the same way? You schedule it each day in advance, or you do that as part of a long-range schedule, I guess? MS. McCANDLESS: It's a long-range schedule.
It's a long-range schedule. And they tell you you only can have one destination if you're doing it long range? MS. McCANDLESS: You can only have one destination.
And you're saying that doesn't meet your needs or people like you because you could go different places each day or couple days, that kind of thing? MS. McCANDLESS: Yeah.
All right. MS. McCANDLESS: If you have a meeting and it's for your type of employment, you're screwed.
Okay. MS. McCANDLESS: Sorry for 15 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. using that type of language, but --
We understand what you mean. Thank you, Madam Chair.
My name is Thaddeus Robinson and I'm a member of the SEPTA Advisory Committee for Accessible Transportation and I'm the Chairperson of the Policies and Planning Committee of the SEPTA Advisory Committee of Accessible Transportation. The SAC is an independent advisory committee of SEPTA. We've been -- SAC has been around for over years. We're independent of 23 SEPTA. We run our own meetings. We 24 elect our own members. We receive no 25 funding from SEPTA whatsoever. So we are 16 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. free to say how we feel about the SEPTA service. And also there's some misconceptions here I want to correct for the record. Number one, concerning the seat belts on the buses, seat belt use is not mandatory under the ADA regulations. Seat belt use is optional. If the person in a wheelchair wants to use a seat belt, they have to ask an operator or the operator asks a person if they want to use the seat belt. Wearing a seat belt on a bus is not required. And concerning additional eligibility, that's also an ADA requirement, that every person has to be certified every three to five years to use CCT Connect. I am considered conditionally eligible. So I can only use SEPTA -- I mean CCT when it rains or snows. Like today I couldn't use CCT. So I came here by the bus. The people are not being thrown off. Technically they're being recertified, and that is a 17 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. federal requirement under ADA. Do you have any questions? I'm free to answer.
Yeah. Number one, I understand that seat belts are not mandatory, but every wheelchair does not always have brakes or does not have good brakes.
So when they're on this bus, how are those wheelchairs secured?
Like I said, under the ADA, the driver is not required to put the seat belt on, but the driver is required to ask --
Wait a minute. That wasn't what I asked. I didn't say about the driver. I just asked a simple question, that when the wheelchair is on the bus, sometimes brakes do not work on chairs. Some chairs don't have brakes. I merely asked how are those wheelchairs secured. 18 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
On every bus there's four wheelchair securements. Now, the driver is required to use those securements. Now, if the driver, he doesn't use securements, I think the customer should ask the driver to put them on the wheelchair. If the driver doesn't, then the customer should report him to customer service.
It varies. I mean, some drivers put all four on and some drivers only put one on. It's an enforcement issue.
I understand. Is it enforced, say, 50 percent of the time?
Well, you know, if the person -- if the customer files a complaint, then the driver is 19 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. reinstructed on how they use the securements.
Okay. Tell me this: When you're on the bus, what is the normal amount of persons in wheelchairs that are on there when you're on there?
Every bus has two wheelchair spaces, per the ADA requirement.
Okay. Do you feel that there's a need for another form of transportation for people in wheelchairs?
As in like by SEPTA? Do you think that maybe the system is remiss that they don't have adequate transportation for the needs of people?
Well, if we had 20 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. wheelchair-accessible cabs, I think that would be another option, but the way things are going in Harrisburg, that's not going to happen no time soon.
But do you think the buses that they have now is adequate --
Even though my understanding here from the prior testimony is that if suddenly you woke up in the morning and you had a fever and you weren't doing too well and you needed to get to the doctor or the hospital, you would have to go on public transportation because you wouldn't be able to get the other bus?
Well, usually people get charged for that. 21 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Everyone can't afford to pay that bill.
I was asking. I wasn't suggesting. I asked you did you feel that the system that's in place now with the vehicles that they have, is it adequate for the wheelchair community? Is it sufficient? That's what I was asking you.
Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, the bus is 100 percent wheelchair accessible. I mean, the only exception is the trackless trolleys, and they would become wheelchair accessible starting in March of next year. SEPTA just ordered 38 new trackless trolleys. And a couple weeks ago some of the members from the SAC went on a test ride on the new trackless trolley.
Thank you, Madam Chair. 22 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Just one question, sir, on the CCT issue, the certification issue.
Can you just generally say what the criteria is? I know there's certain people that can only go when it's inclement weather and other people can schedule more permanent or continuing schedule. What is the basic breakdown?
It's inclement weather, architectural barriers, like lack of sidewalks, lack of curb cuts, uneven streets. You either have to go up or down a steep hill or you have to cross a dangerous intersection.
So if you have to do those things, you could be eligible for a continuing CCT service?
Is that basically it? Okay. So I didn't hear on that. It's not actually the person's disability; it's more like the 23 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. environment or the conditions?
It depends on your capability of getting to and from a bus stop.
Okay. All right. I mean, I'm sure you have to meet some physical requirements too, because you said --
Not really, no. 11 It's your ability to get to and from the bus stop.
So when you're saying when they're reevaluated each, I think you said, three to five years, something like that?
So they're really investigating the accessibility issue that you just -- the availability to get the buses, not the person's physical disability?
No, I'm right that that's what they do? 24 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
All right. I guess that's it for now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
My name is German Parodi. There are a number of problems, issues, concerning SEPTA and its -- the ways that they do things and how they view the disabled community. Beginning on the subway, the elevated train, they have a number of disabled-accessible stops. Now, they just made the 8th stop accessible for the El and they just have an elevator going on the southbound. On the northbound the elevator there is owned by PATCO, but there's the El there 25 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. also. That elevator breaks regularly. I would say every two weeks it doesn't work. And I've called it in to SEPTA. They say, Oh, that's PATCO's elevator. We cannot do anything about it. But you still have a train running by there. Shouldn't they have any type of responsibility, either them talking to PATCO or themselves about this elevator?
Going northbound. They just did this going southbound. That belongs to SEPTA and it's pretty new. I would say like two months ago they opened that one. Now going northbound, that elevator there belongs to PATCO, but the El runs under there. And my problem is, if you have a train going through there, why don't you also do some type of inclusion with keeping it 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. working for us who work and have to catch it? If not, I have to go up to either 13th Street or 2nd Street, and that's a problem. At least I find that a problem.
I've called PATCO and they say it will be working in two or three days, and which it normally does, but nonetheless, those two or three days I have to change my regular way. Why can't SEPTA see if they can work something out? And I say that, again, because SEPTA has trains running there also. On the buses, yes, we already heard about belts, and I don't know, but I agree with whatever he has to say that if the person wishes them on, they should put them on and say something. But I do have an issue with the drivers not 27 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. letting people in wheelchairs on, which I've seen regularly. Yeah, perhaps the bus is a little bit full. There's still space on the back. The driver says, I can't take you, and rolls on, or they just don't stop and just keep on going. They've done that to me two weeks ago, which I did call it in. But there should be some type of disability awareness or training for these drivers that should let them know that there's a space there for disabled people and he should stop for them. Ms. Dorothy Ruffin also spoke about this.
Well, at least for me, yes. I mean, a week ago I was by the 7th Street, Market and 7th, and a driver came and opened the door, say, Oh, wait for the next one. Why don't you tell 28 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. everybody else wait for the next one? I don't want to call this discrimination. That's a pretty big word, but nonetheless, what is he doing, if there's spaces there and there's space on the back that he could tell the other people to move back to? Moreover, on the same subject, when the bus stops and there's a wheelchair there, I believe it's critical that the wheelchair should go in first. The driver opens the door. Everybody goes in. He doesn't ask them to stop or anything. I mean, then again, it goes with the whole disability awareness. I believe that the wheelchair should go in first, and I've read that in their protocol that they enforce it. I don't believe so. I haven't seen so. On CCT, on the eligibility part, they do check our medical history. The guy said they didn't, but they do ask for our medical history, our physical capabilities. And many times they have a 29 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. power chair and they get only rain and weather, but let's say the morning it's fine and you can schedule a ride because it's not supposed to rain. It rains in the afternoon. Why can't you call it in and ask for a ride if you're supposed to get rides when it's raining? In the morning, it wasn't raining. You didn't want to give me a ride. I call in the afternoon because it's pouring. How am I supposed to get home? I have a power chair. If I take it out in the rain, it's going to shut down. Are you going to come pick me up and push me? But nonetheless, they say you cannot make the same day ride. I believe that on these people that can make rides for the full day, there should be some type of option that they can make the ride if weather gets bad in the afternoon or whenever. My last subject is on buses and trains, many times they do not call out their stops, and that is a problem for those who are visually impaired who do 30 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. not see where the bus is. They're counting that bus and the train will call out the correct stop, but they don't, and that's -- at least I know for sure that on the El, it's a very regular problem. There was a bus that was going to Temple and I was riding with a visually impaired individual. If she wasn't with me, she would have gotten lost. She didn't know where it was, because the bus didn't call none of the stops when they do have that machine on. I don't know if it breaks or whatnot, but that's a problem, and I believe that should be addressed. Mainly if you're visually impaired, you don't know where you're going. And those are my main concerns at the moment with SEPTA.
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, sir, for your testimony. A couple of quick questions. 31 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Let me just go backwards from what you said. The calling out the stops, you're saying on the El and the subway, that's a problem?
Because I ride all that, and it seemed to me just off the top -- now, I don't maybe study it as closely as you do. I thought there was more of a problem with the buses on that, because that calling out on the buses seems to get off sometimes.
They're telling you they're at 27th Street when they're at 30th Street or something.
But to be fair, I didn't think that was the case on the subway or Els. It seems to be pretty good there. Now, again, I'm not looking at it as closely as you, so I'll defer to your judgment. 32 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
I cannot say the subway, because I do not ride the subway. I cannot testify on that. On the El, which I take daily, that is a problem. It's calling up Pratt and it's at Torresdale.
So they're telling you it's 8th Street when it's 15th Street or something, that kind of thing?
All right. Just on the CCT issue, again, so it sounds like you're disagreeing with Mr. Robinson, that there is a physical criteria? I didn't want to get into a debate. It would seem there would have to be something.
Yeah. I don't see him, but, yes. And I see a problem 33 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. because you send out the paperwork, they tell your doctor to sign it, and he said that there's no medical part. Then why does the doctor have to sign it?
So it's up to the doctor to determine if you meet certain criteria?
Both. They send it to your doctor to sign that you are disabled.
And then that paperwork is sent to SEPTA, and they have a group of interns who are the ones that at the end decide, yes, he is physically able or unable.
And that 34 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. SEPTA doctor can overrule your doctor; is that --
So in the end, it's the doctor that SEPTA uses that's the, as you see it --
They're interns. Not even a board of doctors. Interns. And I see that's a very, very problem with eligibility.
And in your opinion, you see people turned down that should not be?
Yes. I work for Liberty Resources and I would say out of the 5,000 consumers that we have, over 50 percent of them have problems with the eligibility part. That's a lot of people.
And the last thing, on another thing you mentioned on the CCT, so it's a nice sunny day at 8 o'clock in the morning. You go out. 35 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Two o'clock in the afternoon you're coming back. It's pouring rain. You can't get service because you hadn't done it the day before?
Yes. Or if you did it the day before, they will say, Well, the weather doesn't say it's going to rain. As we've seen, regularly the weather is not --
Especially I know in the summer every day they always say chance of an afternoon thunderstorm.
Yes, but you call it in and they say no because the weather is not.
I guess when SEPTA comes up, they can address that issue, but that doesn't -- I'm sure you agree with me. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, because it always --
No. I agree with 36 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. you.
And sometimes weather forecasts differ, too, I know.
When a person is rejected, is there an appeal process?
Yes. You can appeal it. I've had problems myself that I haven't gotten paperwork of the appeal, and just as Ms. Dorothy, the first person who testified, said, there's some people who are challenged in different ways that they might have some help applying for 37 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. it, but then the appeal comes and some people just can't understand, and that should be part of the whole evaluation on eligibility.
It's supposed to go before a board of SEPTA. You go in front of a few people from SEPTA.
I have a person here who actually has gone and appealed. Karen, may I ask you -- her name is Karen DiNardi, the lady right there. I'm not sure, but she knows. Would you like the correct answer? Is it a board of members of SEPTA or is it a third-party independent group? She's going to type it in her machine.
Thank 38 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. you very much. Thank you.
No. I understand. But at least somebody is going to have to come up or somebody is going to have to come up and answer. That's the only way it can get on the record.
She said third party. She says it's a third party that they appeal.
It's a third-party body? Does she know who sits on -- I mean, not the people, but where the people come from that sit on that board? 39 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. That's okay. I'll check it out. We'll research it and find out. Thank you very much.
Madam Chair, just for the record, this sounds like a similar process of what you go through when you do the -- apply for a handicapped parking spot. It's a kind of similar thing. The doctor has to -- there's a doctor that the City provides, I think, and then you can appeal.
Well, not really anymore. MS. DiNARDI: SEPTA picks them.
SEPTA picks who is on there. We can probably ask SEPTA about that.
Yes. My name is Tilli Ayala. And my concern is, first of all, as a healthy, able, walking citizen that I am, I can get on and off the bus with no problem. I have a family to get to and places to go to. I depend on SEPTA. My work, I work for Home Care Hospice. They purchase my bus pass. I'm thankful for that. But my friends, Jennifer Burns and Karen DiNardi, they're on wheelchairs. They also have families and jobs and important places to go to. There is no difference between myself, an able, walking citizen, and my good friends in the wheelchairs. We should all be able to ride on SEPTA. But I have noticed many times when I have been on SEPTA when the buses are full or nearly full, the driver will pull over and say, Wait for the next bus, and often times I have heard people on 41 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the bus say, Why can't they just ride their own buses? And it's just -- it's very, very degrading to see that bus drivers can do that to my friends in wheelchairs and -- I'm sorry. But I work with disabled people and I know what they go through, and it is just not right that SEPTA drivers could be so insensitive and just pass them by. I'm willing to get off the bus and let a person in a wheelchair ride. Can SEPTA do something to help them, to help them ride the buses? Maybe improve the system and prioritize the seats that are made for the wheelchairs that they have a right to get on? That's one concern. My next concern is smoking on buses. I'm referring to drivers. Bus 59 at Margaret-Orthodox, I have gotten on that bus many times and I have reported the SEPTA number where you complain about it. It's programmed on my cell phone. And nothing has been done. That same 42 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. driver still smokes on the bus, obviously during his break. Other buses as well. Drivers will smoke, and people with asthma have to smell that. My third complaint is, I have witnessed rude behavior by riders, including drug sales. The bus driver -- I have notified the driver. This has happened on Bus 66 going towards the Northeast. I have notified the driver -- well, I did notify the driver two weeks ago about that situation. The driver did nothing. I understand bus drivers are there to drive. They're not there to be policemen, but they have a right to help secure the riders in some form of way or the other. Could that be addressed?
Anything can be addressed. It's just the manner in which you do it. If it's drug 43 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. sales, that would be dealing with the Police Department about that. If it's rudeness, we would have to deal with SEPTA about the lack of sensitivity on behalf of the driver. But all of this we can deal with, trust me, and we shall.
Just quickly, ma'am, first of all, on the issue with any kind of police problem, I know -- and I guess Ms. Jones or whoever can address that, but I know that there is a mechanism that they can notify the police, and I've seen that happen. In fact, you'll see on the sign, it will say "Help, Police" or something like that. So there is a way they can do that. I can't obviously talk about the individual situation you were in, but I have seen where an operator can flag down a police officer. I've been on buses when that's happened. 44 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Just getting back real briefly on your issue of full or near full buses. I don't want to nitpick, but I guess that is a difference, because I know I see non-handicapped people also passed up sometimes when the bus is too full. Are you talking about when it's just a matter that they could move a little bit farther back and they're still turning those people down? Because I guess if a bus is totally full, in fairness, it's tough to get a handicapped person or a non-handicapped person on some buses. They just get too full.
I understand. That has happened. The driver should tell the people to move back, and usually that's the case.
And you're saying, in your opinion, they don't make that effort to try to accommodate? Is that what you're basically saying?
That's right. 45 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Have I missed anyone from the -- Joan, the Commissioner, I understand that you're going to testify on this.
Good morning. I'm Frances Jones, Assistant General Manager of Government Affairs at SEPTA.
Good morning. I'm Cynthia Lister. I'm ADA Coordinator for SEPTA. I'm glad to be with you here this 46 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. morning. I'm here today to speak about City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities' Resolutions 070084 and 070105 and how SEPTA meets the travel needs of those who live and especially work in our region. Joining me from SEPTA is Frances Jones, who just introduced herself. SEPTA's mission is to provide quality, affordable transportation for all riders, and our accessibility mission is to provide individuals with disabilities, again, all kinds of disabilities, the ability to travel independently on regular public transportation through accessible vehicles, accessible facilities and accessible services, supported by appropriate training and, when necessary, appropriate reinstruction and discipline. As ADA Coordinator, I'm responsible for working closely with SEPTA's engineering and construction 47 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. staff, as well as operations, capital planning, new vehicles, training, customer service, legal, the Office of Civil Rights and other departments to ensure that the Authority's vehicles, facilities and services meet our regulatory requirements and that we continue to work aggressively to meet the needs of customers with disabilities. SEPTA is a huge system, as you know, operating over a 2,200 square mile service area. It is a multi-modal transit network, which includes 143 bus, subway, light rail and rail lines, as well as ADA and shared-ride paratransit services under the umbrella of CCT. SEPTA's 2,661 vehicles deliver more than 900,000 trips each weekday and 300 million passenger trips annually. Much of SEPTA's service network -- I want to emphasize, routes, infrastructure and facilities -- is close to or more than 100 years old, and it was constructed at a time well before ADA and 48 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. its accessibility requirements. To meet the challenge of making a mature system accessible, the Authority has invested billions of dollars in improvements, including purchasing and upgrading vehicles, improving existing stations, constructing new terminals, loops and stations that are ADA compliant. But bricks and tires are only part of our investment. SEPTA has developed training programs for operators and other front-line personnel to support these efforts. We have also built a very strong cooperative partnership with members of the regional disability community. The SEPTA Advisory Committee for Accessible Transportation, which is called SAC -- the Chairman was here earlier and one of the past Chairmen testified earlier -- meets regularly with staff and we frequently consult SAC. We look for advice and input on vehicles, services, facility projects. As ADA Coordinator, I also serve as SEPTA's 49 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. liaison to SAC and other constituents, including the senior community. As was mentioned earlier, SEPTA's bus fleet is now 100 percent accessible. We reached that milestone in 2004, ahead of our target date and by accelerating new vehicle purchases. And each new vehicle has an automated stop announcement system, wheelchair securements and what's called priority seating. As required by the federal regulations, seating up front is marked with decals designated for seniors and persons with disabilities, two wheelchair berths per bus. As part of our ongoing bus replacement program, the disability community collaborates with SEPTA by identifying useful new accessibility features and also participating in vehicle tryouts and field testing, and they have done so for many years. After a little over three years of 100 percent accessibility, bus 50 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. ridership by individuals using wheelchairs has almost quadrupled.
And although every single route is used every single month, six City transit routes, the 17, the 21, the 23, the 33, the 47 and the C, account for 50 percent of the total ridership by wheelchair users. All regional rail service includes at least two accessible cars, and while our railcars predate ADA by 12 years, at the time of purchase, they met 13 all the accessibility requirements then 14 in place. Looking to the future, our 15 order for new Silver Liner 5 railcars is 16 moving along. When placed into service, 17 these cars will feature two wheelchair 18 berths per car, automated stop 19 announcements and all features ADA 20 requires. Members of the disability community again also collaborated with SEPTA staff on design specifications for these cars, and they will participate in the field-testing of them when the pilot car arrive. 51 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. With the retrofit of the historic PCC cars for the Girard Avenue Route 15, SEPTA introduced the first ADA-accessible trolley car into the system. New accessible trackless trolleys mentioned earlier, field-tested by SAC members, will be delivered in 2008. Thirty-five SEPTA transit and rail stations were identified as FTA key stations requiring ADA upgrades and improvements, and I'm also pleased to report that construction on every one of these 35 stations, including 8th and 13th Street stations on the Market-Frankford line, is either complete or in the end stage of construction, with completion anticipated this winter. And this contrasts with some of our transit peers, including New York City transit, who are only partway along in their key station efforts. I want to emphasize that SEPTA takes pride in the fact that the key 52 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. station initiative represents only the beginning of our station accessibility improvement program. Each year dollars are programmed and approved by the SEPTA Board through our capital budget for station improvements and construction. On the Market-Frankford line, the El, 9 of 28 stations are already accessible, 10 including 13th Street station, which is 11 located a half block from here. Five 12 additional stations are under 13 construction and another three El 14 stations are included in the capital 15 budget for accessibility improvements. 16 So there is as much ongoing as there is 17 already done. 18 On the Broad Street-Ridge Spur line, seven stations are accessible, including Walnut-Locust just south of City Hall. One station is under construction, and six stations are scheduled for future capital improvements. While City Hall station was not 53 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. identified as a key station due to the architectural and engineering complexity of making this station compliant, it is included in SEPTA's long-term capital plan. On regional rail, stations 8 located in the City of Philadelphia are 9 accessible. One Philadelphia station is 10 currently under construction, and four 11 additional stations within the City are 12 identified for capitally funded ADA 13 improvements and upgrades. 14 Another critical part of the 15 accessibility picture, especially for 16 SEPTA service in the City, is elevators. 17 Of the 69 elevators now in service, all 18 but three are located in Philadelphia. As this extensive list of capital activities demonstrates, system accessibility is an ongoing key priority for SEPTA. These improvements have been very, very costly. For example, by the time all work is completed on the El from 69th Street to Frankford, we will have 54 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. spent close to two billion. We believe that these are prudent, important capital investments that enhance the quality of our service and system for all customers.
Even in the face of our continuing fiscal crisis and the recent changes in FTA guidelines that require a local match to be in place at the start of capital improvement programs, SEPTA will continue its efforts to move forward, particularly with system accessibility, because we know that public transportation is what helps to keep our City and the region mobile and economically viable. Public transportation is a key reason new employers settle in our region. According to a Center City District study, 70 percent of Center City employees use SEPTA to travel to work, and 18 percent of all workers region-wide commute via transit. Our service generates more than four million in daily commerce, and every 55 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. dollar the Authority spends returns six-fold to our regional economy, creating and sustaining local jobs. SEPTA is unwavering in its commitment to providing accessible vehicles, facilities and service for the citizens of Philadelphia and the region to take them to work, school, shopping, medical appointments, job interviews and family visits, and we understand that the need for service is not a need for 9:00 to 5:00 service. It is a need for service extending from the early morning until very late at night or into 24/7. Councilwoman Campbell, I want to thank you for the opportunity to update you and the members of the Transportation Committee on what we believe is SEPTA's considerable progress in this accessibility mission. I invite you and other members of the Committee and your colleagues on City Council to tour our accessible system, and I would be happy, along with my colleagues, to 56 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. respond to any questions you may have.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you both for coming here, and I have to say, Ms. Jones, thank you for all those years of helping me out, both in my first life in this place working for Councilman Cohen and the last year. You've always been very responsive. Thank you.
I mean, you've heard some of the things that were talked about, and I just want to touch on a few of them, if I could.
Let me start with the CCT issue. The thing that, at least in my opinion, made the least sense of what was said was the policy of this whole inclement weather question. I mean, you kind of heard what I said when Mr. Parodi was up here. 57 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. How is that determined? This may sound stupid, but how do you determine what's an inclement weather day? I mean, during the summer, if you listen to Cecily Tynan, she tells you it's going to rain every day, a chance of showers in the afternoon. I'm not trying to be silly, and it happens a lot. You go out, it's sunny in the morning and it's pouring rain at 2, 3 o'clock in the afternoon. How is that determined?
How is inclement weather determined? With us today is Jim Foley, James Foley, who is the Chief Operating Officer for CCT Connect and intimately familiar with service and eligible issues.
Good morning. My name is Jim Foley. I'm Chief Officer for SEPTA's CCT Connect paratransit service. There are a number of 58 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. eligibility criteria, including which is weather, but even within the weather criteria, there's a couple of sub-criteria, I'll call them. When we look at a person's individual eligibility status, when a person first comes to us and applies for our service, we take a look at what they can do, their functional ability to use fixed-route buses. And if I could clear up maybe a little bit of something that was said earlier. It's true that a person's medical condition technically, technically I say, is not taken into consideration or is the sole criteria of whether you can use paratransit. It's strictly the functional ability of the person to use fixed route. The question that has to be answered is, can they use a bus, can they get onto an accessible trolley, elevator onto the Market-Frankford line. In order to determine that, what we do is, sometimes if it's not 59 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. clear, if it's a little uncertain, we send our applicants to what we call a functional eligibility assessment. We don't do that in-house. We don't have people that make those determinations. We send them to private third-party contractors, places like Bryn Mawr Rehab, Moss Rehabilitation Center, who have professionals, professional physical therapists, occupational therapists, that help to make that determination. Again, part of the determination of a person's eligibility, though, is can they withstand certain weather conditions. For example, we give certain people eligibility based on time of year. So, for example, if you have -- if your medical condition is such that you can't withstand extreme heat and/or extreme cold, you may be eligible for paratransit from November until March, because the temperature simply is such that we know you're not going to be able to withstand extreme cold. 60 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. On an individual-trip basis, if you are what we call weather eligible or rain and snow eligible, what we do is, we look three days in advance at the weather forecast, and if there is severe weather forecast three days out, we will make people eligible. We will allow people with snow and rain and ice conditions in their eligibility status, we will let those people book rides on CCT. I have to tell you, though, that we really try to be very lenient, very liberal and very generous in our estimates. If it looks like it's at all going to be torrential downpours, snow, ice, we simply say you can ride.
Okay. I don't want to belabor this point, but you heard what the gentleman said, that there's times that he's gone out -- and I am sure it's happened -- in the morning, everything is fine. The weather forecast may have been fine. In the middle of the day something happens, winds come the 61 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. other way, it starts raining, and may be raining hard. Is there any flexibility, if you will, given that kind of situation? Because, again, I understand about the three days ahead, but I dare say that if you look three days ahead most times, they got it wrong a lot. I mean, it just doesn't always happen like that. So you're dealing with humans predicting something. But in the reality, whatever the prediction was, if on Thursday -- if they said on Thursday it's going to be nice and on Thursday in the afternoon it isn't, is there some flexibility? Is there some way this gentleman or others like him can call somewhere and say, Look, I'm stuck now, it's pouring rain out there, my motorized vehicle is going to be damaged? Am I making sense?
You're making sense, but we have -- we schedule our CCT paratransit service 24 hours ahead. And 62 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. by that I mean at 6 o'clock the night before any given day of service, the trips for the following day are scheduled and sent to the private contractors who provide the service. The day of service, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that we are completely inflexible and never give people rides that weren't scheduled the day before. We try. As a matter of fact, one of the things we do, which, quite frankly, we don't have to do under the ADA, if you have a doctor's appointment and your doctor -- you get there and you're scheduled for us to come get you at 4 o'clock and you find your doctor is running late, on a regular basis our customers call up our control center that day and it's 2:30 and you know you're not going to be out by 4:00, we'll come back and get you at 4:30 or 5 o'clock. So if you're asking if we're flexible, we try to be, but within the 63 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. constraints of what we can do with limited resources.
How many vehicles do you have out there on a given day that try to help transport people?
Region-wide for the SEPTA region, we put out about close to 400 vehicles a day.
Four hundred vehicles? And is it fair to say most days they're in use?
They are in use each day. I was wondering if you could -- and I don't know. Maybe it's in here and you gave it to us. I didn't see it yet. Could somebody send through the Chair first the written criteria on the whole CCT issue and maybe some kind of breakdown on the vehicles that are used, maybe where they're used, Philadelphia. I mean, they kind of operate -- certain vehicles just operate in certain counties 64 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. or if like there's a big flood of requests in Philadelphia, I'll use that for an example, could more be utilized in one county?
Yes and no. It truly is based upon demand. We by law must meet all ADA demand trips. Now, as you know, we operate within the City of Philadelphia. SEPTA is not only responsible for its complementary ADA service, but also for the seniors' shared-ride service funded by PennDOT. But as far as our ADA service is concerned, we must meet all demand. We must -- if you have a trip request, we must meet that trip request. So we obviously spread our resources and place our resources, vehicles, contractors, drivers, we simply place them where the demand is, and it varies from day to day. Now --
-- we do have what 65 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. we call subscription service, which means or what we call standing orders, which means that a certain portion, which we're permitted to do under the ADA, a certain portion of our number of our trips you can call up and get a standing order, which means you take the same trip every day. You don't have to bother calling up and reserving it. So that kind of drives us, too.
That brings up -- I'm glad you brought that up. The question I think the first witness -- or second witness raised about if you have an employment where you're going the same place every day, you can do that sort of long-range planning, if you will. But I guess there are people that have to be in different places. How do you deal with that? It sounds like from what at least the witness said you can't do that. You can't say, I'm going to go to City Hall today for my job and I'm going to the state building tomorrow 66 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. or something.
Actually, I'd like an opportunity to clear that up. I was listening to the same testimony, and I believe -- I may be wrong -- I believe that the witness was referring to eligible trips for a particular individual. And, remember, there are certain trips that are ineligible for a certain person because you may -- and I believe in this particular instance the witness has an eligible trip from her home to Liberty Resources, possibly because of architectural barriers, environmental barriers. So that trip is eligible. But if she wanted to go somewhere else where she could use a bus or the El, that particular trip, she's right, may not be eligible. It truly is -- we try to do it on a trip-by-trip basis, and I believe that's what she was referring to. Because we are not allowed to deny someone a trip for a particular purpose. 67 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. It doesn't matter to us under ADA if you want to go for work, pleasure, shopping, doctor. It just doesn't matter. If you call up and request a ride and you are eligible for that trip, we give it to you.
So it's not the employment per se; it's the destination and the availability, the accessibility, all that?
And the eligibility of the trip. Again, a particular person who is conditionally eligible for environmental or architectural barriers could have one trip approved but the other trip denied.
Okay. Again, if there is a way to get the written criteria --
-- succinctly as possible through the Chair, 68 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. I'd really appreciate it. Madam Chair, I have a few other questions.
I'm okay? I don't want to dominate here. The issue that came up with the drivers -- I guess Ms. Jones or Ms. Lister might be best here that the -- and I know you said in your testimony, Ms. Lister, that there is training programs for operators.
Particularly as part of the question of, I think it was, the last witness that brought up that drivers sometimes just pass up people in wheelchairs, say there's no room. What is the general criteria for that? I mean, I guess what I'm getting at is, say there's people standing, but there's room. People can move back. And I know people like to 69 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. cluster to the front. Again, I take the bus a lot, so I see that. Are the drivers instructed to ask people if they're not seniors and just apparently able-bodied people to get up out of that seat and say stand in the back? I mean, how does that work? If the spots are taken by passengers when a handicapped person flags the bus down.
The driver can request -- Frances Jones, Assistant General Manager of Government Affairs at SEPTA. The driver can request that those seats be vacated such that seniors or those that are disabled can use those seats. He cannot demand, and we don't instruct them to get into a confrontation. He can request. If in fact the rider is not compliant, that is the best that he can do under those circumstances. However, if the infraction is called into SEPTA and it is called in and a complaint is registered, 70 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that driver or employee is -- can be reprimanded and is required to have and does get retraining for that infraction. So, yes. But the only way that it can occur is if someone calls the complaint in.
I want to emphasize, this is not -- this rule doesn't originate with SEPTA. The federal regulations, the U.S. Department of Transportation ADA regulations, stipulate that transit operators must request but cannot require. It's our understanding that that's because of the assumption that others sitting in those seats, which are called priority seats, I referred to them earlier, may have a hidden disability. But we have worked proactively on this one. We've done things like put up what are called car cards in buses, one of which has the slogan "yield your seat with a smile," trying to educate the public when somebody who uses braces or a 71 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. cane or a wheelchair needs to sit down, get up. That could be you or your mother.
Do you have many complaints about this, that disabled people are passed up? I mean, are you hearing much of that?
We do get complaints from persons with disabilities and from others on the vehicle that people are passed up. However, the interesting thing is, the number of complaints that we get from riders about this is far smaller than the number of reports that we get from SEPTA operators, who radio in, I had to leave somebody in a wheelchair at 8th and Market. So the number of reported pass-ups by operators is many times greater than the number of customers complaining about pass-ups.
I have to say, in fairness, as somebody who rides, it seems like most of the time the 72 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. drivers do make every attempt to work with the passengers in this kind of issue. But I'm sure there are and I'm sure, in fairness, if you're out there in a wheelchair and the bus passes you up, especially if you see lots of room in the back, just like me when I get passed up and I see why don't those people move to the back, I guess it's a similar thing.
If you're waiting there and they blow you off, you don't forget it.
By the way, I assume I'm right with the issue with the police, there is a way the operator can notify the police?
Absolutely, and under circumstances such as that, if his device is malfunctioning, he is authorized to use a cell phone, if necessary, or if the person -- if someone is on the bus and observes illegal activity going on, don't assume that the driver is aware of it or make a move to 73 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the driver. Use your cell phone, if necessary.
Okay. And also on the issue of announcements. You heard what I said. I found generally that there seems to be more problem on buses than there are on El, subways. Is that your finding, too?
It's more the bus. The El is automated, and I can speak personally from -- I am the Project Manager for the Market Street Elevated Reconstruction Project. It is off sometimes on that end when the stations are inaccessible. So let's take, for example, right now 46th Street is closed. So where you would get to 46th Street and it would announce 46th Street, the next stop that you would use is 52nd Street. So it is going to be off just a bit for the time period that that station is under construction. So that does happen occasionally. 74 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Now, with buses, again, I do feel a lot of times they do get kind of fouled up there. Does that have to do with like how buses -- maybe they get backed up in traffic or that kind of thing? I'm assuming it's not that easy.
In some instances it is the volume of the traffic, but also we do have bus drivers -- and I use the system, the buses primarily in Center City, that do call out the stops. They do call the stops out when the system is inoperable. So we do have -- they are required to do that also.
I know a lot of the testimony had to do with elevators, and certainly with people with wheelchairs, that's a key issue, but I know people that maybe just have difficulty sometimes with steps. They may have difficulty. Escalators, I'm particularly thinking of the one at 15th Street. Is that you guys or -- 75 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Commissioner Schlotterbeck is going to have to answer that. She's raising her hand. So never mind. Is that the case with most escalators at SEPTA stops, that it's Public Property?
It depends upon the location. It's dependent upon the location.
And the ones that are SEPTA managed, do they seem to be mostly working okay or are you having problems?
There are some instances, depending upon the age of the escalator will determine whether it's -- how frequently it's operable or inoperable. If it's an older escalator, of course, it takes a little bit longer for us to get parts, but in most instances where it's a newer escalator and we do the inspection of them on a regular weekly basis, we try to get them up as soon as we're notified that they're 76 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. inoperable. And I have to say that there is good coordination between the City and SEPTA regarding those escalators that are owned by the City. So we regularly communicate with each other to make sure that our passengers and the residents in the City of Philadelphia are able to use them as much as possible.
One last question, if I could. The issue of the SAC. I guess, Ms. Lister, you can answer this the best. Are there opportunities for the general disabled community to come in and express the concerns like they did today to SAC? Are there public forums, hearings?
I'm going to refer that question to Thaddeus Robinson, because SAC is an independent committee, citizens committee.
Mr. Foley can talk about the requirements from SEPTA's 77 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. administrative perspective.
Just let me, if I could, real quickly, and Thaddeus can back me up here. The SAC is an independent body, as he stated. Anyone can join the SAC group. Is that right, Thaddeus?
All they have to do is really to come to the meetings. The meetings are held -- we meet once a month with the general SAC Committee. There's another group called the Policy and Planning Committee within SAC. We also meet with them once a month. But for the general meetings, it's widely known that anyone, anyone can come, anyone can officially join the SAC Committee. They could try to run for office. SEPTA uses SAC as a resource and a partner, because, quite honestly, we rely on them as our eyes and ears 78 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. within the disabled community to give us feedback, to tell us how we're doing, to work on issues, to help us actually to plan the future with things like vehicles and facilities and so on and so forth.
Yes. The SAC meets the second Thursday of the month, except for August, from 1:00 to 3:00 at the SEPTA building, 1234 Market Street at Room 11-C. And for the first half an hour, it's basically an open session. People can come in, give their complaints about any kind of service with SEPTA, fixed route, CCT, commuter rail. And from 1:30 to 3:00, we have our general meeting where we get different reports from different committees. Sometimes we have guest speakers from SEPTA. So the public is open. I mean, it's open to come.
How is that communicated with the disabled community, if you will? I mean, how do people know about that? 79 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Well, we have over 50 organizations within SACs throughout the five-county area, and mostly -- and normally we get a representative from each organization that comes to the meetings. Also, we're working on getting a newsletter out to our membership and beyond our membership, telling them about the SAC meetings. And on occasion when SEPTA prints out the newsletter for CCT Connect, we often mention in the newsletter about the SAC meetings.
One last question, Mr. Robinson, if I could. I know you said -- and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I think I heard you. When the Chair asked you do you think the needs -- Madam Chair, correct me if I'm stating your question wrong -- if the needs of the disabled community are being met by SEPTA. 80 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Was that your question?
And I think you said you thought it was. Obviously you heard some people would disagree with you on that. Have you heard that kind of complaints you've heard? And I don't want you to get into a back and forth with them, because obviously what you said I think generally was different from what they said.
Sir, I've been involved with the SAC for about 15 years and I've been hearing the same complaints for the past 15 years. In all defense of SEPTA, things have gotten better now since ten years ago. Ten years ago things were a lot worse. I mean, the past ten years SEPTA has really come a long way making the system accessible. And, like I said, there's no perfect system anywhere in the country.
I 81 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. understand that.
You know, you're going to have problems wherever you go. But I've used systems in New York, Virginia, Delaware and New Jersey. All in all, SEPTA is one of the better systems out there.
I understand. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Did I understand you to say that you had your meetings at the SEPTA facility?
Like I said, SEPTA gives us no funding. We picked the SEPTA building because, one, that is accessible and it's generally -- it's easy to reach for all members to get to. 82 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. It's centrally located in Center City. We got a number of bus routes that go by there. We got the El station there now. It's a lot easier for our members to come down into Center City than to go out someplace like Northeast Philadelphia, which is not generally accessible to all our members. I mean, you know, we were thinking about trying to hold meetings outside of SEPTA, but the issue we're having is that if you do that, how many of our members would come. We did it before a couple years ago. Hardly nobody came because it wasn't really accessible to them. So that's why we picked the SEPTA building. And ever since the SAC was created, it's always been held in the SEPTA building.
Let me ask another question, please, of the committee that's over there. I heard about the organizations that you just mentioned. I'm handicapped. I didn't know anything about them. So what is 83 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. your outreach for people that don't belong to this organization? There are thousands of people that are disabled and I'm sure they're not cognizant of this. And what does SEPTA do to try to reach out to the disabled community or the other organizations not affiliated here to find out what their views are about what their needs are?
I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the SEPTA people.
As a part of our general outreach, when we have meetings and when we have community meetings or we do hearings or whatever, there's always an opportunity for someone who is a part of an organization to advise us of the organization such that that organization is then included in any literature or any information that goes out. So if there is an organization that we don't know about or an organization that is not a 84 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. part of our mailing, they are more than -- we are more than happy to get that information and include them in our mailing to the disabled community.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are thousands of people in this City that are disabled. What type of outreach program do you have to reach out to these masses so they're cognizant of what you are trying to do and to find out what their views are as far as their needs?
Anyone who is disabled and seeks to use our paratransit service, when they apply, there is a packet of information that is given to them. They are urged to visit the SEPTA website. And, quite frankly, the disabled community, along with the able-bodied community, have access to the standard forms of communication that SEPTA provides, our website, our press releases. Every part of our normal 85 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. communication process that can reach everyone within the City, that is what's primarily used to reach all of our customers, not just our disabled customers.
Well, let me say this: We have a lot of senior citizens that are disabled, don't own a computer, don't know how to use a computer if they had one. So outreach as far as the computer is concerned doesn't necessarily -- there's a whole world out there that doesn't use computers. What I'm saying is, what type of program do you have that is an outreach to make it known to people that maybe don't use a computer, especially, like I said, our senior citizen community?
We interact with senior citizens through PCA. We have a relationship with PCA, Philadelphia Corporation for the Aging. We interact through PCA. We also, as Mr. Foley said, we send out press releases. There are 86 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. articles in the newspapers of general public circulation throughout the City of Philadelphia, as well as our relationships with community-based organizations. That is the way that we get information out about what is going on for the disabled community, as well as the general community at large. But we use every mechanism that we have within our disposal to get all information out about SEPTA programs and projects that we are engaging in.
Yes. SEPTA also has an individual who works full time on education and outreach with the disability community talking about principally CCT services but also fixed route, and myself. So there's both targeted outreach on the part of two of 87 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. us and general outreach through Frances Jones and her staff and also, more broadly still, the entire Public Affairs staff and the SEPTA website.
Tell me this: Is there anything in place for your CCT system for emergencies, maybe someone that doesn't normally ride the system? Let me explain to you what I mean. I'm sitting here today in Council in a wheelchair. I have a van with a lift. Sometimes the lift doesn't work and you can't get on the van. Say, hypothetically, I would go out to the van to go to the doctor and the lift wouldn't work and I couldn't get in the van. Is there anything in place at SEPTA for this type of an emergency that you can call and get help or assistance?
Wait a minute. I'm not talking about ADA. I'm 88 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. just asking you a question. Is there anything --
I am getting to that. Within the ADA regulations, we cannot accept same-day rides.
In other words, there really is not a system in place for an emergency for a person that's in a wheelchair?
No. You have to be eligible. You have to have gone through our application and eligibility criteria in able to participate, even on an emergency basis. If you had not -- if you have not been deemed eligible for CCT and you call that day for a ride, no, we don't have a system in place for that.
So what you're saying to me, if somebody needs to get to a doctor in an emergency and they're in a wheelchair, there's no help that they can get from SEPTA to help them 89 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. during that emergency?
That's one reason why Liberty Resources and the Mayor's Commission for Persons with Disabilities Transportation Committee, which Mr. Robinson chairs, and also what used to be called Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association but is now called United Spinal, have been working for years to try to obtain an accessible taxi fleet for the City of Philadelphia. It's the whole issue of emergency, same-day transportation, which is an unmet need that is not within SEPTA's mandate.
Let me ask this: Don't you think SEPTA needs to develop a policy for persons that are caught in inclement weather?
I would say that our system is not -- we take suggestions and recommendations under advisement, but in most instances, we are restrained by 90 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the federal regulations that we must adhere to.
Because I was going to ask Mr. Foley the same question. These ADA regulations, they're saying you can't do it or you don't have to do it? I mean, that's two different things. You know what I'm saying? I mean, Mr. Foley, when you said about the same-day rides, you said ADA said we cannot do it or is it they're telling you you don't have to? That's two different things.
The ADA establishes the minimum criteria that a transit agency must adhere to. I would say that with -- and I don't mean to be flip here, but with unlimited resources, absolutely, we could provide every piece of 91 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. transportation that everybody wanted.
But, honestly, we provide the service that we can provide within our funding constraints and we meet the requirements of the ADA.
I understand that, but I just wanted to be clear. And I'm not trying to get into semantics here, but I think there is a difference when you say -- you said ADA said we cannot do it. They're basically saying you don't have to do it; it's not in the code to do it?
I understand. But that's a little different. 92 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
And, Councilman, the shared-ride program, of course, absolutely prohibits it.
That's the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania-funded paratransit transportation for people 65 and older.
I don't have any 93 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. idea what the thinking behind it was. That was established in the '80s.
So even if you're on the list and you're all qualified but you didn't do anything the day before and some emergency comes up --
It's all -- no 9 emergency or same-day transportation can be provided under the shared-ride program.
I'd love to know, Madam Chair, what the criteria is for that, but we can't answer that now, I know.
She said 65 and over. 94 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Okay. Thank you. I think SEPTA needs to address City Hall and the Municipal Services Building accessibility and why wasn't City Hall mentioned as a key station.
At this point, it is in litigation, City Hall station is in litigation, and that's -- we are not at this point -- don't have the available information to discuss it.
Okay. Have you ever sought City Council's assistance in helping to deal with the complexities around City Hall and the Municipal Building?
In our interaction with the City Council, we -- the City Council Transportation and Public Utilities Commission -- Committee, I'm sorry, we have always sought their counsel and interaction for assistance in 95 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. whatever it was that we needed to get done within the City, and in most instances, they have been very helpful to us, if there was any obstacles, in getting what we needed to get done within City operating departments.
That wasn't what I asked. I said have you ever sought their assistance in making City Hall more accessible?
Yes. We have worked with the City Council Transportation and Public Utilities Commission and --
When we were working through the plans, we were working with Public Property in addition to the City Council Committee.
I don't -- I'll 96 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. check to see if there are notes from those meetings available.
If you do, I'd like to see them, please. I'd like to have a copy of them.
Okay. It would seem to me since City Hall is so heavily traveled and if there is difficulty in making it accessible, then you need to reach out to Council to ask them to assist you. It is very easy for people to take things in stride until you become disabled. Then what you realize is what the disabled world is going through, and it's not a pretty picture and it's not an easy life, and I think sometimes you have to go beyond the call of duty to try to make the quality of life better for these people that are disabled.
Maybe just to add quickly to that, I know in the testimony -- I think Ms. Lister said it -- about one of the things that made City Hall station difficult, I think you used the word the "architecture" of it?
What, because there's like sort of different levels and that kind of thing? Is that what you're referring to by the "architecture"?
I know that the station is actually -- the pillars and piers in the station are what are holding City Hall up, but --
Well, we don't want to knock City Hall down. Commissioner, we definitely don't want that. Let's go on record right there. No City Hall knockdown here. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Good morning. Joan Schlotterbeck, Public 98 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Property Commissioner.
Good morning. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Good morning, Madam Chair, Councilman Greenlee.
Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. This City Hall master station project has been a collaborative effort for, I would say, quite a few years now with the City and SEPTA. SEPTA has completed the design. And to answer your question, Councilman, it is very complicated. They have to provide temporary structures to support the building while they remove what's currently there. So it's a very complicated process, and it's going to be very time consuming and extremely costly. But there's been a lot of plans, designs, and we are very close to being able to start the project, but we're now tied up 99 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. in a litigation related to a bigger picture between the City and SEPTA.
Is there a general cost on what that -- I mean, I'm just guessing it would be very costly, but what kind of numbers are we talking about? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: I actually don't know that I know that answer, but --
Could you get that to us? I'd like to know. I mean, I'm sure it's costly, and I understand basically what you're saying, but I certainly understand what the Councilwoman is saying. So many people come through that station. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes.
And to make it inaccessible is difficult, but on the other hand, I understand the difficulties, too. But it would seem like if there was certainly a way to do 100 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. it -- and it sounds like you're working on it. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: No. SEPTA has done an amazing job of planning and preparing for the station. They have all the designs done. They understand all the complications. They have all the mechanical evaluations. They're ready to more or less move forward.
I mean, we may have it, but if you could get the Chair whatever background you have on that, I'd appreciate it. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Okay.
While you're looking at this problem, Commissioner, have you looked at trying to make City Hall more accessible for disabled people in wheelchairs? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: 101 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Yes, ma'am. As a matter of fact, the Capital Programs Office project, which will start the access to the northeast corner, should begin before the end of this month. That also has taken a little bit of time, but it was how to do it, which door to do it, which side of the building to establish the ramp. But we're ready to -- we're prepared to do that and start before the end of this month. So it will be northeast corner. It will on the east side.
That's good. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Very shortly they'll be enclosing the statue there, and that's the first stage of preparing for the construction.
They had a ramp there at one time, didn't they, when the Mayor got injured? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes.
Was 102 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that a temporary ramp? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. Actually, it was completely -- it wasn't compliant with what was needed for someone to use in a wheelchair. It was for him to come up. It was a half-baked, if you will, kind of wooden structure that allowed him to ride up.
Okay. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Madam Chair, I'd like to correct something for the record and also as a matter of fact information. You had an earlier testimony regarding the elevator at 8th and Market Street.
Right. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: It should be known that there are two responsible parties for those elevators. From the track to the Concourse would be PATCO. From the Concourse to the street level is the City of Philadelphia Department of Public Property. 103 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. We did experience in the last couple of months some problems with the elevator, but it was related to construction use or, I should say, misuse, but we're back on track. So for the gentleman that needed to understand the station as it relates to the Concourse to street would be City of Philadelphia. It would be my department.
Thank you. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Any other questions?
If I can just ask one question. I brought up early on the escalator there at 15th Street. Is that just the amount of volume? And I know lots of times trash gets caught up in there and all. It does seem like it gets shut down a lot. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: On 104 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the elevators, too, for the record, there are two that the City has responsibility for. That would be 8th and Market and 15th and Market. Two things, Mr. Greenlee, I think you should know. One is that the useful life of that equipment at both locations is coming to its end. So it does challenge our ability to keep it running in tip-top shape, if you will. But we do have folks that work in City Hall that are assigned, meaning mechanics, that are close enough to get to both stations fast enough to respond. The other thing that happens is, every day it's a wonderful phenomenon, when the schools let out, the children hit the top panel and take it out of service.
Is that right? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. So that happens more frequently than you would think, and folks think the 105 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. escalator is not working. We just go over, hit the button and it starts up again.
So it's just a button there you can hit? Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: We do have challenges --
It sounds too tempting. I think you and I might have tried that when we were kids. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yeah, probably. But it does happen, and pretty much we have folks that, as far as I'm concerned, it's their job to make sure at 3 o'clock they pay attention to the operations of that equipment.
Okay. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: You're welcome.
Thank you very much. 106 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: You're welcome.
My name is Rocco Iacullo. I'm a staff attorney at the Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania. And I apologize for coming in in the last minute with some comments. Unfortunately, we did not find out about this hearing until Sunday. I was away Thursday and Friday, which is actually one concern that I did want to just put forward, that there was some last-minute notice of this hearing and I think that's why there's not as much representation from the disability community.
You 107 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. received a notice at the last minute?
Yes. I actually didn't receive it until over the weekend. I was away on a retreat for my office on Thursday and Friday and got it from Roger Margulies from the Mayor's Commission. I'm not sure when he received the notice, but it was just one concern I did want to --
Well, there was an original hearing, I know, two months ago and that was cancelled. I don't know all the logistics of it. I just know that I didn't receive it, so there was an issue with that.
So I did just want to put that on the record. That might indicate why there's not a whole lot of representation with the disability community here. 108 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. But I did want to respond briefly to some comments made by SEPTA. Specifically, the one resolution I know was about -- you were inquiring about why City Hall station is not accessible, and it is accurate that what Ms. Jones said, that that is in litigation. I'm actually co-counsel on that case with Steve Gold. However, I did want to respond, because I don't believe that the litigation -- I'm not going to get into discussion of the legal issues of that case and I know SEPTA is not required to. They do not have their counsel here. But I believe that at this point in time, the issue of making City Hall accessible going forward is really not technically a part of that litigation any longer. There is one minor alteration claim under the ADA with regard to a replacement of an escalator, but other than that, discussion of the City Hall project that is on the books at the current time that was discussed I believe 109 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. is open for discussion, and what I believe the point of this was was to find out whether that project is going to be moved forward. Obviously there's always cost considerations and funding issues, and I guess if that's the big question here, is whether SEPTA is not -- not what happened in the past, but going forward, is SEPTA going to devote funding to make a commitment to make sure that that project moves forward to ensure that City Hall station is made accessible in the near future, let's say five to ten years, versus 40 years down the line, and I believe that that -- I just wanted to respond, because I don't think that that question has been answered whether there's a commitment there. So I would hope that SEPTA might be willing to discuss in a little bit more detail where that project stands and whether they're going to commit the money to that project to move it forward. And I don't believe that that is going to have any effect on 110 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the litigation at this point. So I just wanted to make a comment about that.
I did hear about the plans, but I didn't hear about the financial commitment.
Sure. Which is always a consideration, and I don't know if they have that commitment right now to move it forward or what the plan. So I just was wondering if maybe we might be able to hear a little bit more about that project and whether it's moving forward. That's the first thing. And if anyone wants to respond, they can. If they don't, that's fine as well. I think that that's what you wanted to hear today.
Wait a minute. Does anyone from SEPTA care to respond to that at this point?
Frances Jones, Manager of Government Affairs. I don't have that information 111 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. with me today, but we can get that information back to you with the other response that we're getting back to you.
But they do have the information? You don't know whether there's a financial commitment or whether they're going to be able to make a financial commitment?
We're looking at what the cost is. At this point, the cost is astronomical, but, of course, because City Hall is the center of the City, there is a commitment from SEPTA to do what we need to do. And I'll get that information to you, the cost.
Yes, and about the commitment, if there is a commitment there.
I just have a few other brief comments. I know that the paratransit issue has been discussed 112 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. before I came up here, and I am fully aware of the ADA regulations that are in place, which I know sometimes members of the disability community do not fully understand those regulations and why the changes have occurred with the conditional eligibility. There is a particular issue that my organization has been concerned about with regard to the conditional eligibility. Again, I'm not here to attack SEPTA, because I believe that on physical disability cases, their eligibility determination process, that we have not seen really any major issues with that. It seems like they have the evaluation, a functional evaluation. In most cases they are making the right determination. I'm not going to say it's foolproof, that there's never mistakes made, but that seems to be okay. Our concern is with people with cognitive disabilities and how the application process applies to those 113 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. individuals and whether SEPTA has a sufficient process in place to get the determination right with regards to those type of disabilities. We're talking about people who physically may be capable of getting on and off of a bus, but because of their mental disability or cognitive impairment are not able to follow routes, are not able to transfer between buses without getting lost, and our concern with that has been that the application seems to be geared towards people with physical disabilities, and to the point that if you don't answer some of those questions, that SEPTA may actually reject the application, and a lot of those questions are not applicable to people with cognitive disabilities. I also don't believe that they have an evaluation process like the functional assessment at Moss Rehab for people with cognitive disabilities. There's just some concern there about how SEPTA is meeting that 114 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. particular population's need and whether those individuals are able to get full-time paratransit as they should. So there is a concern there. The third point I just wanted to make -- and I won't take much more of your time -- SEPTA has gotten much better on the physical side with vehicles, structures. I applaud them. I mean, their buses now are -- their fleet is a hundred percent accessible. They've apparently made a commitment to purchasing 400 new low-floor buses, which is the preferred option of the disability community because of the fact that they deploy the ramp much quicker, it's much more efficient, less prone to breakdowns. That is great. They are on the Market-Frankford El making a lot of stations accessible. The regional rail stations, while I understand that that is costly, I believe that more can be done with regard to stations on the regional rail line, which would affect the people 115 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. with disabilities who live in suburban counties who may be employed who want to travel to Philadelphia. I think more could be done on some of those lines to make more regional rail stations accessible. But overall, I think what we're moving towards now is issues of really training and how the accessible features are maintained and operated. I think that's going to be very important, and I'm not sure how well SEPTA has done in that regard. There have been major problems with some elevators, Girard Avenue, outages with elevators. It's not clear whether there is a policy with regard to maintaining lifts on buses to make sure that they are operational, and also just training with regard to personnel. I have more experience with the regional rail lines than the buses. I personally have had a lot of experiences with that, and a lot of conductors on the trains seem to know 116 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
their responsibility under the ADA, but there are a lot of other ones who do not seem to recall their training with regard to assisting individuals with wheelchairs getting on and off the train. It's very important actually at some points, because a bridge plate needs to be deployed from the train to allow a wheelchair user to get off the train onto platforms. There's a lot of gaps that cannot be traversed by a wheelchair without that bridge plate, and that seems to be a major problem on the regional rail lines where conductors -- I take the train on a regular basis, so once the one team of conductors gets to know me and expects me to be on the train, it works very smoothly. But if you get on a train with a new crew, a lot of times it seems like they don't know that they need to go get the bridge plate while you're stopped at the station. In fact, they have forgotten on many occasions to go get the bridge plate and have almost moved on to 117 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the next station, which could be bad because if the next station is inaccessible, that person in the wheelchair is stuck on the train. So I believe that there can be some better training with regard to the regional rail operation. And these are issues that really impact people with disabilities. I myself am an attorney. I can deal with those inconveniences and sometimes those major inconveniences, but there's a lot of people with disabilities who do not have the level and the skills that I have, and that can be very upsetting to a person and a discouragement to them to use the public transit, which is what we are encouraging. We agree with the ADA regulations with paratransit. It was designed to help people while the main system was not accessible. It was a temporary fix to help them, but the goal was to get people to use the regular 118 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. fixed-route transit system. So that should be our goal here. And these training issues, though, do provide a discouragement to people with disabilities and maybe why some people would like paratransit to still cover them, even though we know it doesn't. They still want that because they're afraid of using the main fixed-route system because of these everyday operational issues with bus drivers passing people up, conductors not knowing that they have to get a bridge plate for people. That can be discouraging and lead people with disabilities to think that, Look, we don't want to take that because we don't want to get stuck somewhere. We just want to get to where we're going. So that was my only comment, is I think that more can be done on the training side and with those issues. Again, with the facilities, SEPTA has done an excellent job, again, with the 119 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. commitment of the low-floor buses, things like that, the facilities, but I think there also needs to be a commitment to the training and making sure that that is working the best that it can be. Thank you.
Madam Chair. Just quickly, sir, on that, and I don't want to get into this too much, because we got a whole resolution still to go, but on that cognitive disability issue that you raise, could you get to the Chair a little more detail on that as far as the requirements vis-a-vis ADA and what SEPTA is doing. You said about the questions. Maybe a suggestion of questions that would be different to meet that group, that kind of thing.
Actually, I would have a suggestion that maybe somehow a different application could be developed 120 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that could apply particularly to people with cognitive disabilities, because the whole issue is, as Mr. Foley explained, the functional ability of a person with a disability to use the regular fixed-route system. So a person with a cognitive disability, it's not a physical aspect, it's the mental ability to be able to follow the routes, things like that. And right now the application is about 12 pages, and I'd say 75 percent of that is 13 geared towards questions dealing with 14 physical disability questions, can you 15 wheel your wheelchair, do you have a 16 motorized wheelchair, things like that, 17 and they're really not questions about if 18 you have a cognitive disability. 19 I mean, I think there should be 20 a way to bypass all those questions, and 21 I think sometimes, from what we have 22 heard, that applications have been rejected because they didn't fill out the questions about the physical disabilities, but it didn't apply to 121 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. them.
So if maybe a new application just for those types of disabilities, but also just a concern of there's really no one hired -- the functional assessment that's done at Moss Rehab is about physical disabilities and they're not trained in people with cognitive disabilities.
Thank you. From SEPTA I'd like someone to speak on the sensitivity training that your employees receive and how extensive it is.
When a new employee comes -- I'm sorry. Frances Jones, Assistant General Manager, Government Affairs at SEPTA. When a new employee comes 122 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. aboard at SEPTA, they are given extensive training around customer service, around how to deal with the disabled community. And so it is extensive, it's involved. They're taken through a process of how to deal with each aspect of a bus or whatever vehicle that they are driving as to how to deal with the disabled community. In addition, they're given sensitivity training in the interaction with the disabled community. Then when there is an infraction that is reported and a complaint or an infraction is reported, then there is retraining that also occurs around that specific issue. So we are very, very sensitive to the issues of the disabled community and the impact as to what we do has on each aspect of that community.
Okay. I recall earlier in the testimony there was something about drivers smoking.
Yes. I did hear 123 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that, and we did make note of that also. That will be dealt with. We did get the information on the bus route, so that will be addressed with our bus transportation.
Tell me, what is the length of time while they're in training that is spent on the sensitivity dealing with disabled people?
It's integrated into their general overall training. It's not -- I don't know that there's a specific amount of time that is relegated to it, but it's a part of our overall training for our operators when they come on board at SEPTA.
After repeated offenses, what happens to the employee?
We have what we call a progressive discipline process, and it depends upon the infraction that occurs the discipline that is relegated to that respective infraction. So it 124 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. depends upon what is going on or what the infraction is, the progressive discipline process.
Ultimately a driver can be terminated, but it is, as I said, it is a progressive process.
Most certainly. Prior to ultimate, which is the termination, there is probably more a verbal warning and then probably a written warning and then perhaps a suspension and then, as I said, the ultimate is termination. But I don't know exactly what the procedure is, but it is progressive.
I would also like to respond to the issue around the assessment through our providers around 125 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the cognitive disabilities, just to set the record straight.
Also not to step on Frances' toes, but the progressive discipline process at SEPTA starts with -- any infraction whatsoever that requires discipline for a driver starts with a verbal warning, then a written warning, then a one-day suspension, a three-day suspension, a five and a final, and then depending upon the union contract, there might be something in between the five and a final and a discharge. But that's generally --
Final warning. But that generally is the progression of progressive discipline at SEPTA.
Okay. 126 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
In terms of the cognitive -- people that apply for CCT Connect paratransit service and the cognitive disabilities, within the application process there is a section 7 for people to give us information if they have cognitive disabilities versus physical. Let me just digress one minute and say that the application, the ADA application, as we speak right now is being reshaped. We are putting together a new application, and in putting together that application, we have reached out to the mental health and the mental retardation agencies, not only in Philadelphia but in the outlying counties, PCA and our other stakeholders in this. We're running that application by them to get their input. But even so, the application today does absolutely contain information that we need for people with cognitive disabilities. Most of the people that 127 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. apply to SEPTA for paratransit with cognitive disabilities are sent on a functional assessment. The private contractors that do our functional assessments have people on staff who are skilled in determining people -- at assessing people with cognitive disabilities. What they do is, they give them what is known as the Facts test, F-A-C-T-S. It's a nationally developed test that scores people with cognitive disabilities, gives them a score of what they can and cannot do. Can they function, how well can they function. To be perfectly honest with you, most, upwards of 90 percent, of the people with cognitive disabilities who apply for our service get paratransit. You have to score very, very high on the Facts test, and, quite frankly, most of the people who apply to us don't. Now, we are going forward this year to dovetail that with a travel training effort at SEPTA, and we're going 128 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. to hire a third-party consultant to take some of the people who have scored high on the Facts test and to see if we can help them through travel training to be able to use regular fixed-route service.
Now we're going to hear testimony on 070212, which is the resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to determine the safety of our public school children who are transported to and from school in school buses and equipped with seat belt restraints; and to determine whether there are not immediate alternatives available for the protection of our children when riding school buses; and to determine the means, methods and criterion used by the Philadelphia School Reform Commission to ensure the safety of children transported to and from school 129 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. under their supervision. Is anyone here for that?
Good morning. CAPTAIN MURPHY: Good morning, Madam Chairwoman, Councilpersons and guests. Thank you for inviting me to speak today. My name is Michael Murphy and I'm the Captain of the Accident Investigation Division. After investigating many school bus accidents over the years, it was always a wonder why seat belts were never mandatory. Though no harm is acceptable, it is fortunate that most of these accidents involve superficial injuries, many of which can be attributed to the construction of the high backing of the seats themselves. Of course, most of these types of injuries would occur during low-speed crashes. High-speed crashes are very 130 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. different. When passengers are flying out of their seats and around in the vehicle, the construction of the seats, which include high-edged seats with no 6 borders, become an item of danger and injury. The purpose of the seat belt in an automobile is to keep the passenger and the driver in a stationary position and not leaving the sitting position. Planes and automobiles have restraint systems. Automobiles not only have seat belts, but require special seats and restraints for children under a certain age and size. Since school buses carry one of our most precious assets, our children, it's surprising that some type of safety belt system has not already been required. For all of the above reasons, it is the opinion of the Philadelphia Police Department's Accident Investigation Division that seat belts would reduce injuries or downgrade the 131 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. seriousness of injuries received. Thank you. I'm available for questions.
Tell me this: I firmly believe children need seat belts, but let me ask, what is your personal opinion about it? CAPTAIN MURPHY: My personal opinion is the same opinion that I've given you. While school buses, the big yellow school buses, are extremely safe, I believe, as well as my colleagues in Accident Investigation, that if you can prevent injuries by wearing a safety belt, then it's a good thing to prevent the injuries.
I just think that children are really in danger without some kind of restraint, because you never know what's going to happen in a bus as far as an accident, nor what can hit it, and children cannot anticipate, like an adult might see something coming, and would not know how to brace or 132 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. protect theirselves. I just don't know why after all this time nothing has been done about it. Now, I know that probably economically it could be very expensive, and I understand that, but no price is too great to pay where children's lives are concerned. CAPTAIN MURPHY: I agree.
I've seen a lot of times where accidents almost happen and I've seen the bus driver have to hit the brakes all of the sudden and a couple times I've seen children knocked out of their seats. It wasn't an accident, but just by putting the brakes. But had they had restraints on them, they wouldn't have been out of the seats. They wouldn't have been knocked out of the seats. I just don't understand how it ever got to this point where they don't have these. So what I'm concerned about here would be what would be your idea of 133 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the best way to try to deal with the situation? CAPTAIN MURPHY: My personal opinion would be to have some type of -- not just a lap belt, but a system designed to hold the child in place, the upper torso as well as keeping the child in the seat. Unfortunately, studies have shown that if you have just a lap belt, there's a possibility of causing more injuries just because it's a lap belt. I think the last study done by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration indicates that they are again looking into the use of seat belts. At this point, they don't require them on school buses.
Do you know of any county or city that has the type of belt that you think is needed? CAPTAIN MURPHY: No, I don't. I'm really not an expert on school buses and the safety requirements of school buses. I know certain school buses, the 134 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. smaller ones have to have restraints and the larger ones do not. Certain school buses for handicapped and below-age school children require certain types of restraints also, but the average school bus does not.
Madam Chair, if I could, yes. Sir, what interaction, if any, do you know, have you or the Police Department had with the School District and/or the School Reform Commission on this question? Do you know? Have they reached out to you at all? Because Accident Investigation seems to be a reasonable place to ask about this kind of subject. Have they ever asked, that you know of? CAPTAIN MURPHY: No. 24
They've never asked? Okay. 135 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. To the best of your knowledge, has the Police Department ever made a recommendation on this issue to the School District, that you know of? CAPTAIN MURPHY: Not that I'm aware of, no. 8
At a previous hearing, the School District -- and I believe it was the School District that said this -- one of their concerns was that when you -- you have a big bus, 35 kids or something in it and they're all restrained, that it causes a problem when there is an accident in getting them off the bus. Do you have a comment on that? Did you ever consider that? I'm not saying I agree with their statement. I'm just wondering, because I remember that pretty specifically being said at a previous hearing. CAPTAIN MURPHY: I wouldn't doubt that it could be a problem. I would just wonder what additional 136 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. problems you would have in the type of crash that they're referring to if the children weren't restrained properly.
I agree with you. It seems like particularly children are even less likely to not be sitting in a safe manner on a bus. Most people would sit -- most adults sit somewhat straight or whatever. Kids, they might be half standing up, they may be leaning over to talk to their friends in the back. So it would seem to me they're more susceptible to injury if that bus gets in an accident. Would you agree with that? CAPTAIN MURPHY: I would agree with it, yes.
Okay. It sounds like they agree with us, Madam Chair. Thank you.
Thank you very much. CAPTAIN MURPHY: You're welcome. 137 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
We have other written testimony that will be submitted for the record. As of now, the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities is recessed to the call of the Chair. (Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities adjourned at 12:50 p.m.) - - - 138 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on October 22, 2007, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)