Good morning. I'm Cynthia Lister. I'm ADA Coordinator for SEPTA. I'm glad to be with you here this 46 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. morning. I'm here today to speak about City Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities' Resolutions 070084 and 070105 and how SEPTA meets the travel needs of those who live and especially work in our region. Joining me from SEPTA is Frances Jones, who just introduced herself. SEPTA's mission is to provide quality, affordable transportation for all riders, and our accessibility mission is to provide individuals with disabilities, again, all kinds of disabilities, the ability to travel independently on regular public transportation through accessible vehicles, accessible facilities and accessible services, supported by appropriate training and, when necessary, appropriate reinstruction and discipline. As ADA Coordinator, I'm responsible for working closely with SEPTA's engineering and construction 47 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. staff, as well as operations, capital planning, new vehicles, training, customer service, legal, the Office of Civil Rights and other departments to ensure that the Authority's vehicles, facilities and services meet our regulatory requirements and that we continue to work aggressively to meet the needs of customers with disabilities. SEPTA is a huge system, as you know, operating over a 2,200 square mile service area. It is a multi-modal transit network, which includes 143 bus, subway, light rail and rail lines, as well as ADA and shared-ride paratransit services under the umbrella of CCT. SEPTA's 2,661 vehicles deliver more than 900,000 trips each weekday and 300 million passenger trips annually. Much of SEPTA's service network -- I want to emphasize, routes, infrastructure and facilities -- is close to or more than 100 years old, and it was constructed at a time well before ADA and 48 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. its accessibility requirements. To meet the challenge of making a mature system accessible, the Authority has invested billions of dollars in improvements, including purchasing and upgrading vehicles, improving existing stations, constructing new terminals, loops and stations that are ADA compliant. But bricks and tires are only part of our investment. SEPTA has developed training programs for operators and other front-line personnel to support these efforts. We have also built a very strong cooperative partnership with members of the regional disability community. The SEPTA Advisory Committee for Accessible Transportation, which is called SAC -- the Chairman was here earlier and one of the past Chairmen testified earlier -- meets regularly with staff and we frequently consult SAC. We look for advice and input on vehicles, services, facility projects. As ADA Coordinator, I also serve as SEPTA's 49 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. liaison to SAC and other constituents, including the senior community. As was mentioned earlier, SEPTA's bus fleet is now 100 percent accessible. We reached that milestone in 2004, ahead of our target date and by accelerating new vehicle purchases. And each new vehicle has an automated stop announcement system, wheelchair securements and what's called priority seating. As required by the federal regulations, seating up front is marked with decals designated for seniors and persons with disabilities, two wheelchair berths per bus. As part of our ongoing bus replacement program, the disability community collaborates with SEPTA by identifying useful new accessibility features and also participating in vehicle tryouts and field testing, and they have done so for many years. After a little over three years of 100 percent accessibility, bus 50 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. ridership by individuals using wheelchairs has almost quadrupled.
And although every single route is used every single month, six City transit routes, the 17, the 21, the 23, the 33, the 47 and the C, account for 50 percent of the total ridership by wheelchair users. All regional rail service includes at least two accessible cars, and while our railcars predate ADA by 12 years, at the time of purchase, they met 13 all the accessibility requirements then 14 in place. Looking to the future, our 15 order for new Silver Liner 5 railcars is 16 moving along. When placed into service, 17 these cars will feature two wheelchair 18 berths per car, automated stop 19 announcements and all features ADA 20 requires. Members of the disability community again also collaborated with SEPTA staff on design specifications for these cars, and they will participate in the field-testing of them when the pilot car arrive. 51 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. With the retrofit of the historic PCC cars for the Girard Avenue Route 15, SEPTA introduced the first ADA-accessible trolley car into the system. New accessible trackless trolleys mentioned earlier, field-tested by SAC members, will be delivered in 2008. Thirty-five SEPTA transit and rail stations were identified as FTA key stations requiring ADA upgrades and improvements, and I'm also pleased to report that construction on every one of these 35 stations, including 8th and 13th Street stations on the Market-Frankford line, is either complete or in the end stage of construction, with completion anticipated this winter. And this contrasts with some of our transit peers, including New York City transit, who are only partway along in their key station efforts. I want to emphasize that SEPTA takes pride in the fact that the key 52 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. station initiative represents only the beginning of our station accessibility improvement program. Each year dollars are programmed and approved by the SEPTA Board through our capital budget for station improvements and construction. On the Market-Frankford line, the El, 9 of 28 stations are already accessible, 10 including 13th Street station, which is 11 located a half block from here. Five 12 additional stations are under 13 construction and another three El 14 stations are included in the capital 15 budget for accessibility improvements. 16 So there is as much ongoing as there is 17 already done. 18 On the Broad Street-Ridge Spur line, seven stations are accessible, including Walnut-Locust just south of City Hall. One station is under construction, and six stations are scheduled for future capital improvements. While City Hall station was not 53 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. identified as a key station due to the architectural and engineering complexity of making this station compliant, it is included in SEPTA's long-term capital plan. On regional rail, stations 8 located in the City of Philadelphia are 9 accessible. One Philadelphia station is 10 currently under construction, and four 11 additional stations within the City are 12 identified for capitally funded ADA 13 improvements and upgrades. 14 Another critical part of the 15 accessibility picture, especially for 16 SEPTA service in the City, is elevators. 17 Of the 69 elevators now in service, all 18 but three are located in Philadelphia. As this extensive list of capital activities demonstrates, system accessibility is an ongoing key priority for SEPTA. These improvements have been very, very costly. For example, by the time all work is completed on the El from 69th Street to Frankford, we will have 54 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. spent close to two billion. We believe that these are prudent, important capital investments that enhance the quality of our service and system for all customers.
Even in the face of our continuing fiscal crisis and the recent changes in FTA guidelines that require a local match to be in place at the start of capital improvement programs, SEPTA will continue its efforts to move forward, particularly with system accessibility, because we know that public transportation is what helps to keep our City and the region mobile and economically viable. Public transportation is a key reason new employers settle in our region. According to a Center City District study, 70 percent of Center City employees use SEPTA to travel to work, and 18 percent of all workers region-wide commute via transit. Our service generates more than four million in daily commerce, and every 55 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. dollar the Authority spends returns six-fold to our regional economy, creating and sustaining local jobs. SEPTA is unwavering in its commitment to providing accessible vehicles, facilities and service for the citizens of Philadelphia and the region to take them to work, school, shopping, medical appointments, job interviews and family visits, and we understand that the need for service is not a need for 9:00 to 5:00 service. It is a need for service extending from the early morning until very late at night or into 24/7. Councilwoman Campbell, I want to thank you for the opportunity to update you and the members of the Transportation Committee on what we believe is SEPTA's considerable progress in this accessibility mission. I invite you and other members of the Committee and your colleagues on City Council to tour our accessible system, and I would be happy, along with my colleagues, to 56 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. respond to any questions you may have.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you both for coming here, and I have to say, Ms. Jones, thank you for all those years of helping me out, both in my first life in this place working for Councilman Cohen and the last year. You've always been very responsive. Thank you.
I mean, you've heard some of the things that were talked about, and I just want to touch on a few of them, if I could.
Let me start with the CCT issue. The thing that, at least in my opinion, made the least sense of what was said was the policy of this whole inclement weather question. I mean, you kind of heard what I said when Mr. Parodi was up here. 57 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. How is that determined? This may sound stupid, but how do you determine what's an inclement weather day? I mean, during the summer, if you listen to Cecily Tynan, she tells you it's going to rain every day, a chance of showers in the afternoon. I'm not trying to be silly, and it happens a lot. You go out, it's sunny in the morning and it's pouring rain at 2, 3 o'clock in the afternoon. How is that determined?
How is inclement weather determined? With us today is Jim Foley, James Foley, who is the Chief Operating Officer for CCT Connect and intimately familiar with service and eligible issues.
Good morning. My name is Jim Foley. I'm Chief Officer for SEPTA's CCT Connect paratransit service. There are a number of 58 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. eligibility criteria, including which is weather, but even within the weather criteria, there's a couple of sub-criteria, I'll call them. When we look at a person's individual eligibility status, when a person first comes to us and applies for our service, we take a look at what they can do, their functional ability to use fixed-route buses. And if I could clear up maybe a little bit of something that was said earlier. It's true that a person's medical condition technically, technically I say, is not taken into consideration or is the sole criteria of whether you can use paratransit. It's strictly the functional ability of the person to use fixed route. The question that has to be answered is, can they use a bus, can they get onto an accessible trolley, elevator onto the Market-Frankford line. In order to determine that, what we do is, sometimes if it's not 59 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. clear, if it's a little uncertain, we send our applicants to what we call a functional eligibility assessment. We don't do that in-house. We don't have people that make those determinations. We send them to private third-party contractors, places like Bryn Mawr Rehab, Moss Rehabilitation Center, who have professionals, professional physical therapists, occupational therapists, that help to make that determination. Again, part of the determination of a person's eligibility, though, is can they withstand certain weather conditions. For example, we give certain people eligibility based on time of year. So, for example, if you have -- if your medical condition is such that you can't withstand extreme heat and/or extreme cold, you may be eligible for paratransit from November until March, because the temperature simply is such that we know you're not going to be able to withstand extreme cold. 60 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. On an individual-trip basis, if you are what we call weather eligible or rain and snow eligible, what we do is, we look three days in advance at the weather forecast, and if there is severe weather forecast three days out, we will make people eligible. We will allow people with snow and rain and ice conditions in their eligibility status, we will let those people book rides on CCT. I have to tell you, though, that we really try to be very lenient, very liberal and very generous in our estimates. If it looks like it's at all going to be torrential downpours, snow, ice, we simply say you can ride.
Okay. I don't want to belabor this point, but you heard what the gentleman said, that there's times that he's gone out -- and I am sure it's happened -- in the morning, everything is fine. The weather forecast may have been fine. In the middle of the day something happens, winds come the 61 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. other way, it starts raining, and may be raining hard. Is there any flexibility, if you will, given that kind of situation? Because, again, I understand about the three days ahead, but I dare say that if you look three days ahead most times, they got it wrong a lot. I mean, it just doesn't always happen like that. So you're dealing with humans predicting something. But in the reality, whatever the prediction was, if on Thursday -- if they said on Thursday it's going to be nice and on Thursday in the afternoon it isn't, is there some flexibility? Is there some way this gentleman or others like him can call somewhere and say, Look, I'm stuck now, it's pouring rain out there, my motorized vehicle is going to be damaged? Am I making sense?
You're making sense, but we have -- we schedule our CCT paratransit service 24 hours ahead. And 62 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. by that I mean at 6 o'clock the night before any given day of service, the trips for the following day are scheduled and sent to the private contractors who provide the service. The day of service, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that we are completely inflexible and never give people rides that weren't scheduled the day before. We try. As a matter of fact, one of the things we do, which, quite frankly, we don't have to do under the ADA, if you have a doctor's appointment and your doctor -- you get there and you're scheduled for us to come get you at 4 o'clock and you find your doctor is running late, on a regular basis our customers call up our control center that day and it's 2:30 and you know you're not going to be out by 4:00, we'll come back and get you at 4:30 or 5 o'clock. So if you're asking if we're flexible, we try to be, but within the 63 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. constraints of what we can do with limited resources.
How many vehicles do you have out there on a given day that try to help transport people?
Region-wide for the SEPTA region, we put out about close to 400 vehicles a day.
Four hundred vehicles? And is it fair to say most days they're in use?
They are in use each day. I was wondering if you could -- and I don't know. Maybe it's in here and you gave it to us. I didn't see it yet. Could somebody send through the Chair first the written criteria on the whole CCT issue and maybe some kind of breakdown on the vehicles that are used, maybe where they're used, Philadelphia. I mean, they kind of operate -- certain vehicles just operate in certain counties 64 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. or if like there's a big flood of requests in Philadelphia, I'll use that for an example, could more be utilized in one county?
Yes and no. It truly is based upon demand. We by law must meet all ADA demand trips. Now, as you know, we operate within the City of Philadelphia. SEPTA is not only responsible for its complementary ADA service, but also for the seniors' shared-ride service funded by PennDOT. But as far as our ADA service is concerned, we must meet all demand. We must -- if you have a trip request, we must meet that trip request. So we obviously spread our resources and place our resources, vehicles, contractors, drivers, we simply place them where the demand is, and it varies from day to day. Now --
-- we do have what 65 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. we call subscription service, which means or what we call standing orders, which means that a certain portion, which we're permitted to do under the ADA, a certain portion of our number of our trips you can call up and get a standing order, which means you take the same trip every day. You don't have to bother calling up and reserving it. So that kind of drives us, too.
That brings up -- I'm glad you brought that up. The question I think the first witness -- or second witness raised about if you have an employment where you're going the same place every day, you can do that sort of long-range planning, if you will. But I guess there are people that have to be in different places. How do you deal with that? It sounds like from what at least the witness said you can't do that. You can't say, I'm going to go to City Hall today for my job and I'm going to the state building tomorrow 66 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. or something.
Actually, I'd like an opportunity to clear that up. I was listening to the same testimony, and I believe -- I may be wrong -- I believe that the witness was referring to eligible trips for a particular individual. And, remember, there are certain trips that are ineligible for a certain person because you may -- and I believe in this particular instance the witness has an eligible trip from her home to Liberty Resources, possibly because of architectural barriers, environmental barriers. So that trip is eligible. But if she wanted to go somewhere else where she could use a bus or the El, that particular trip, she's right, may not be eligible. It truly is -- we try to do it on a trip-by-trip basis, and I believe that's what she was referring to. Because we are not allowed to deny someone a trip for a particular purpose. 67 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. It doesn't matter to us under ADA if you want to go for work, pleasure, shopping, doctor. It just doesn't matter. If you call up and request a ride and you are eligible for that trip, we give it to you.
So it's not the employment per se; it's the destination and the availability, the accessibility, all that?
And the eligibility of the trip. Again, a particular person who is conditionally eligible for environmental or architectural barriers could have one trip approved but the other trip denied.
Okay. Again, if there is a way to get the written criteria --
-- succinctly as possible through the Chair, 68 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. I'd really appreciate it. Madam Chair, I have a few other questions.
I'm okay? I don't want to dominate here. The issue that came up with the drivers -- I guess Ms. Jones or Ms. Lister might be best here that the -- and I know you said in your testimony, Ms. Lister, that there is training programs for operators.
Particularly as part of the question of, I think it was, the last witness that brought up that drivers sometimes just pass up people in wheelchairs, say there's no room. What is the general criteria for that? I mean, I guess what I'm getting at is, say there's people standing, but there's room. People can move back. And I know people like to 69 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. cluster to the front. Again, I take the bus a lot, so I see that. Are the drivers instructed to ask people if they're not seniors and just apparently able-bodied people to get up out of that seat and say stand in the back? I mean, how does that work? If the spots are taken by passengers when a handicapped person flags the bus down.
The driver can request -- Frances Jones, Assistant General Manager of Government Affairs at SEPTA. The driver can request that those seats be vacated such that seniors or those that are disabled can use those seats. He cannot demand, and we don't instruct them to get into a confrontation. He can request. If in fact the rider is not compliant, that is the best that he can do under those circumstances. However, if the infraction is called into SEPTA and it is called in and a complaint is registered, 70 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that driver or employee is -- can be reprimanded and is required to have and does get retraining for that infraction. So, yes. But the only way that it can occur is if someone calls the complaint in.
I want to emphasize, this is not -- this rule doesn't originate with SEPTA. The federal regulations, the U.S. Department of Transportation ADA regulations, stipulate that transit operators must request but cannot require. It's our understanding that that's because of the assumption that others sitting in those seats, which are called priority seats, I referred to them earlier, may have a hidden disability. But we have worked proactively on this one. We've done things like put up what are called car cards in buses, one of which has the slogan "yield your seat with a smile," trying to educate the public when somebody who uses braces or a 71 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. cane or a wheelchair needs to sit down, get up. That could be you or your mother.
Do you have many complaints about this, that disabled people are passed up? I mean, are you hearing much of that?
We do get complaints from persons with disabilities and from others on the vehicle that people are passed up. However, the interesting thing is, the number of complaints that we get from riders about this is far smaller than the number of reports that we get from SEPTA operators, who radio in, I had to leave somebody in a wheelchair at 8th and Market. So the number of reported pass-ups by operators is many times greater than the number of customers complaining about pass-ups.
I have to say, in fairness, as somebody who rides, it seems like most of the time the 72 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. drivers do make every attempt to work with the passengers in this kind of issue. But I'm sure there are and I'm sure, in fairness, if you're out there in a wheelchair and the bus passes you up, especially if you see lots of room in the back, just like me when I get passed up and I see why don't those people move to the back, I guess it's a similar thing.
If you're waiting there and they blow you off, you don't forget it.
By the way, I assume I'm right with the issue with the police, there is a way the operator can notify the police?
Absolutely, and under circumstances such as that, if his device is malfunctioning, he is authorized to use a cell phone, if necessary, or if the person -- if someone is on the bus and observes illegal activity going on, don't assume that the driver is aware of it or make a move to 73 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the driver. Use your cell phone, if necessary.
Okay. And also on the issue of announcements. You heard what I said. I found generally that there seems to be more problem on buses than there are on El, subways. Is that your finding, too?
It's more the bus. The El is automated, and I can speak personally from -- I am the Project Manager for the Market Street Elevated Reconstruction Project. It is off sometimes on that end when the stations are inaccessible. So let's take, for example, right now 46th Street is closed. So where you would get to 46th Street and it would announce 46th Street, the next stop that you would use is 52nd Street. So it is going to be off just a bit for the time period that that station is under construction. So that does happen occasionally. 74 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Now, with buses, again, I do feel a lot of times they do get kind of fouled up there. Does that have to do with like how buses -- maybe they get backed up in traffic or that kind of thing? I'm assuming it's not that easy.
In some instances it is the volume of the traffic, but also we do have bus drivers -- and I use the system, the buses primarily in Center City, that do call out the stops. They do call the stops out when the system is inoperable. So we do have -- they are required to do that also.
I know a lot of the testimony had to do with elevators, and certainly with people with wheelchairs, that's a key issue, but I know people that maybe just have difficulty sometimes with steps. They may have difficulty. Escalators, I'm particularly thinking of the one at 15th Street. Is that you guys or -- 75 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Commissioner Schlotterbeck is going to have to answer that. She's raising her hand. So never mind. Is that the case with most escalators at SEPTA stops, that it's Public Property?
It depends upon the location. It's dependent upon the location.
And the ones that are SEPTA managed, do they seem to be mostly working okay or are you having problems?
There are some instances, depending upon the age of the escalator will determine whether it's -- how frequently it's operable or inoperable. If it's an older escalator, of course, it takes a little bit longer for us to get parts, but in most instances where it's a newer escalator and we do the inspection of them on a regular weekly basis, we try to get them up as soon as we're notified that they're 76 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. inoperable. And I have to say that there is good coordination between the City and SEPTA regarding those escalators that are owned by the City. So we regularly communicate with each other to make sure that our passengers and the residents in the City of Philadelphia are able to use them as much as possible.
One last question, if I could. The issue of the SAC. I guess, Ms. Lister, you can answer this the best. Are there opportunities for the general disabled community to come in and express the concerns like they did today to SAC? Are there public forums, hearings?
I'm going to refer that question to Thaddeus Robinson, because SAC is an independent committee, citizens committee.
Mr. Foley can talk about the requirements from SEPTA's 77 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. administrative perspective.
Just let me, if I could, real quickly, and Thaddeus can back me up here. The SAC is an independent body, as he stated. Anyone can join the SAC group. Is that right, Thaddeus?
All they have to do is really to come to the meetings. The meetings are held -- we meet once a month with the general SAC Committee. There's another group called the Policy and Planning Committee within SAC. We also meet with them once a month. But for the general meetings, it's widely known that anyone, anyone can come, anyone can officially join the SAC Committee. They could try to run for office. SEPTA uses SAC as a resource and a partner, because, quite honestly, we rely on them as our eyes and ears 78 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. within the disabled community to give us feedback, to tell us how we're doing, to work on issues, to help us actually to plan the future with things like vehicles and facilities and so on and so forth.
Yes. The SAC meets the second Thursday of the month, except for August, from 1:00 to 3:00 at the SEPTA building, 1234 Market Street at Room 11-C. And for the first half an hour, it's basically an open session. People can come in, give their complaints about any kind of service with SEPTA, fixed route, CCT, commuter rail. And from 1:30 to 3:00, we have our general meeting where we get different reports from different committees. Sometimes we have guest speakers from SEPTA. So the public is open. I mean, it's open to come.
How is that communicated with the disabled community, if you will? I mean, how do people know about that? 79 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Well, we have over 50 organizations within SACs throughout the five-county area, and mostly -- and normally we get a representative from each organization that comes to the meetings. Also, we're working on getting a newsletter out to our membership and beyond our membership, telling them about the SAC meetings. And on occasion when SEPTA prints out the newsletter for CCT Connect, we often mention in the newsletter about the SAC meetings.
One last question, Mr. Robinson, if I could. I know you said -- and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I think I heard you. When the Chair asked you do you think the needs -- Madam Chair, correct me if I'm stating your question wrong -- if the needs of the disabled community are being met by SEPTA. 80 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Was that your question?
And I think you said you thought it was. Obviously you heard some people would disagree with you on that. Have you heard that kind of complaints you've heard? And I don't want you to get into a back and forth with them, because obviously what you said I think generally was different from what they said.
Sir, I've been involved with the SAC for about 15 years and I've been hearing the same complaints for the past 15 years. In all defense of SEPTA, things have gotten better now since ten years ago. Ten years ago things were a lot worse. I mean, the past ten years SEPTA has really come a long way making the system accessible. And, like I said, there's no perfect system anywhere in the country.
I 81 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. understand that.
You know, you're going to have problems wherever you go. But I've used systems in New York, Virginia, Delaware and New Jersey. All in all, SEPTA is one of the better systems out there.
I understand. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Did I understand you to say that you had your meetings at the SEPTA facility?
Like I said, SEPTA gives us no funding. We picked the SEPTA building because, one, that is accessible and it's generally -- it's easy to reach for all members to get to. 82 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. It's centrally located in Center City. We got a number of bus routes that go by there. We got the El station there now. It's a lot easier for our members to come down into Center City than to go out someplace like Northeast Philadelphia, which is not generally accessible to all our members. I mean, you know, we were thinking about trying to hold meetings outside of SEPTA, but the issue we're having is that if you do that, how many of our members would come. We did it before a couple years ago. Hardly nobody came because it wasn't really accessible to them. So that's why we picked the SEPTA building. And ever since the SAC was created, it's always been held in the SEPTA building.
Let me ask another question, please, of the committee that's over there. I heard about the organizations that you just mentioned. I'm handicapped. I didn't know anything about them. So what is 83 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. your outreach for people that don't belong to this organization? There are thousands of people that are disabled and I'm sure they're not cognizant of this. And what does SEPTA do to try to reach out to the disabled community or the other organizations not affiliated here to find out what their views are about what their needs are?
I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the SEPTA people.
As a part of our general outreach, when we have meetings and when we have community meetings or we do hearings or whatever, there's always an opportunity for someone who is a part of an organization to advise us of the organization such that that organization is then included in any literature or any information that goes out. So if there is an organization that we don't know about or an organization that is not a 84 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. part of our mailing, they are more than -- we are more than happy to get that information and include them in our mailing to the disabled community.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are thousands of people in this City that are disabled. What type of outreach program do you have to reach out to these masses so they're cognizant of what you are trying to do and to find out what their views are as far as their needs?
Anyone who is disabled and seeks to use our paratransit service, when they apply, there is a packet of information that is given to them. They are urged to visit the SEPTA website. And, quite frankly, the disabled community, along with the able-bodied community, have access to the standard forms of communication that SEPTA provides, our website, our press releases. Every part of our normal 85 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. communication process that can reach everyone within the City, that is what's primarily used to reach all of our customers, not just our disabled customers.
Well, let me say this: We have a lot of senior citizens that are disabled, don't own a computer, don't know how to use a computer if they had one. So outreach as far as the computer is concerned doesn't necessarily -- there's a whole world out there that doesn't use computers. What I'm saying is, what type of program do you have that is an outreach to make it known to people that maybe don't use a computer, especially, like I said, our senior citizen community?
We interact with senior citizens through PCA. We have a relationship with PCA, Philadelphia Corporation for the Aging. We interact through PCA. We also, as Mr. Foley said, we send out press releases. There are 86 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. articles in the newspapers of general public circulation throughout the City of Philadelphia, as well as our relationships with community-based organizations. That is the way that we get information out about what is going on for the disabled community, as well as the general community at large. But we use every mechanism that we have within our disposal to get all information out about SEPTA programs and projects that we are engaging in.
Yes. SEPTA also has an individual who works full time on education and outreach with the disability community talking about principally CCT services but also fixed route, and myself. So there's both targeted outreach on the part of two of 87 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. us and general outreach through Frances Jones and her staff and also, more broadly still, the entire Public Affairs staff and the SEPTA website.
Tell me this: Is there anything in place for your CCT system for emergencies, maybe someone that doesn't normally ride the system? Let me explain to you what I mean. I'm sitting here today in Council in a wheelchair. I have a van with a lift. Sometimes the lift doesn't work and you can't get on the van. Say, hypothetically, I would go out to the van to go to the doctor and the lift wouldn't work and I couldn't get in the van. Is there anything in place at SEPTA for this type of an emergency that you can call and get help or assistance?
Wait a minute. I'm not talking about ADA. I'm 88 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. just asking you a question. Is there anything --
I am getting to that. Within the ADA regulations, we cannot accept same-day rides.
In other words, there really is not a system in place for an emergency for a person that's in a wheelchair?
No. You have to be eligible. You have to have gone through our application and eligibility criteria in able to participate, even on an emergency basis. If you had not -- if you have not been deemed eligible for CCT and you call that day for a ride, no, we don't have a system in place for that.
So what you're saying to me, if somebody needs to get to a doctor in an emergency and they're in a wheelchair, there's no help that they can get from SEPTA to help them 89 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. during that emergency?
That's one reason why Liberty Resources and the Mayor's Commission for Persons with Disabilities Transportation Committee, which Mr. Robinson chairs, and also what used to be called Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association but is now called United Spinal, have been working for years to try to obtain an accessible taxi fleet for the City of Philadelphia. It's the whole issue of emergency, same-day transportation, which is an unmet need that is not within SEPTA's mandate.
Let me ask this: Don't you think SEPTA needs to develop a policy for persons that are caught in inclement weather?
I would say that our system is not -- we take suggestions and recommendations under advisement, but in most instances, we are restrained by 90 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the federal regulations that we must adhere to.
Because I was going to ask Mr. Foley the same question. These ADA regulations, they're saying you can't do it or you don't have to do it? I mean, that's two different things. You know what I'm saying? I mean, Mr. Foley, when you said about the same-day rides, you said ADA said we cannot do it or is it they're telling you you don't have to? That's two different things.
The ADA establishes the minimum criteria that a transit agency must adhere to. I would say that with -- and I don't mean to be flip here, but with unlimited resources, absolutely, we could provide every piece of 91 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. transportation that everybody wanted.
But, honestly, we provide the service that we can provide within our funding constraints and we meet the requirements of the ADA.
I understand that, but I just wanted to be clear. And I'm not trying to get into semantics here, but I think there is a difference when you say -- you said ADA said we cannot do it. They're basically saying you don't have to do it; it's not in the code to do it?
I understand. But that's a little different. 92 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
And, Councilman, the shared-ride program, of course, absolutely prohibits it.
That's the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania-funded paratransit transportation for people 65 and older.
I don't have any 93 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. idea what the thinking behind it was. That was established in the '80s.
So even if you're on the list and you're all qualified but you didn't do anything the day before and some emergency comes up --
It's all -- no 9 emergency or same-day transportation can be provided under the shared-ride program.
I'd love to know, Madam Chair, what the criteria is for that, but we can't answer that now, I know.
She said 65 and over. 94 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
Okay. Thank you. I think SEPTA needs to address City Hall and the Municipal Services Building accessibility and why wasn't City Hall mentioned as a key station.
At this point, it is in litigation, City Hall station is in litigation, and that's -- we are not at this point -- don't have the available information to discuss it.
Okay. Have you ever sought City Council's assistance in helping to deal with the complexities around City Hall and the Municipal Building?
In our interaction with the City Council, we -- the City Council Transportation and Public Utilities Commission -- Committee, I'm sorry, we have always sought their counsel and interaction for assistance in 95 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. whatever it was that we needed to get done within the City, and in most instances, they have been very helpful to us, if there was any obstacles, in getting what we needed to get done within City operating departments.
That wasn't what I asked. I said have you ever sought their assistance in making City Hall more accessible?
Yes. We have worked with the City Council Transportation and Public Utilities Commission and --
When we were working through the plans, we were working with Public Property in addition to the City Council Committee.
I don't -- I'll 96 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. check to see if there are notes from those meetings available.
If you do, I'd like to see them, please. I'd like to have a copy of them.
Okay. It would seem to me since City Hall is so heavily traveled and if there is difficulty in making it accessible, then you need to reach out to Council to ask them to assist you. It is very easy for people to take things in stride until you become disabled. Then what you realize is what the disabled world is going through, and it's not a pretty picture and it's not an easy life, and I think sometimes you have to go beyond the call of duty to try to make the quality of life better for these people that are disabled.
Maybe just to add quickly to that, I know in the testimony -- I think Ms. Lister said it -- about one of the things that made City Hall station difficult, I think you used the word the "architecture" of it?
What, because there's like sort of different levels and that kind of thing? Is that what you're referring to by the "architecture"?
I know that the station is actually -- the pillars and piers in the station are what are holding City Hall up, but --
Well, we don't want to knock City Hall down. Commissioner, we definitely don't want that. Let's go on record right there. No City Hall knockdown here. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Good morning. Joan Schlotterbeck, Public 98 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Property Commissioner.
Good morning. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Good morning, Madam Chair, Councilman Greenlee.
Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. This City Hall master station project has been a collaborative effort for, I would say, quite a few years now with the City and SEPTA. SEPTA has completed the design. And to answer your question, Councilman, it is very complicated. They have to provide temporary structures to support the building while they remove what's currently there. So it's a very complicated process, and it's going to be very time consuming and extremely costly. But there's been a lot of plans, designs, and we are very close to being able to start the project, but we're now tied up 99 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. in a litigation related to a bigger picture between the City and SEPTA.
Is there a general cost on what that -- I mean, I'm just guessing it would be very costly, but what kind of numbers are we talking about? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: I actually don't know that I know that answer, but --
Could you get that to us? I'd like to know. I mean, I'm sure it's costly, and I understand basically what you're saying, but I certainly understand what the Councilwoman is saying. So many people come through that station. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes.
And to make it inaccessible is difficult, but on the other hand, I understand the difficulties, too. But it would seem like if there was certainly a way to do 100 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. it -- and it sounds like you're working on it. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: No. SEPTA has done an amazing job of planning and preparing for the station. They have all the designs done. They understand all the complications. They have all the mechanical evaluations. They're ready to more or less move forward.
I mean, we may have it, but if you could get the Chair whatever background you have on that, I'd appreciate it. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Okay.
While you're looking at this problem, Commissioner, have you looked at trying to make City Hall more accessible for disabled people in wheelchairs? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: 101 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. Yes, ma'am. As a matter of fact, the Capital Programs Office project, which will start the access to the northeast corner, should begin before the end of this month. That also has taken a little bit of time, but it was how to do it, which door to do it, which side of the building to establish the ramp. But we're ready to -- we're prepared to do that and start before the end of this month. So it will be northeast corner. It will on the east side.
That's good. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Very shortly they'll be enclosing the statue there, and that's the first stage of preparing for the construction.
They had a ramp there at one time, didn't they, when the Mayor got injured? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes.
Was 102 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that a temporary ramp? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. Actually, it was completely -- it wasn't compliant with what was needed for someone to use in a wheelchair. It was for him to come up. It was a half-baked, if you will, kind of wooden structure that allowed him to ride up.
Okay. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Madam Chair, I'd like to correct something for the record and also as a matter of fact information. You had an earlier testimony regarding the elevator at 8th and Market Street.
Right. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: It should be known that there are two responsible parties for those elevators. From the track to the Concourse would be PATCO. From the Concourse to the street level is the City of Philadelphia Department of Public Property. 103 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. We did experience in the last couple of months some problems with the elevator, but it was related to construction use or, I should say, misuse, but we're back on track. So for the gentleman that needed to understand the station as it relates to the Concourse to street would be City of Philadelphia. It would be my department.
Thank you. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Any other questions?
If I can just ask one question. I brought up early on the escalator there at 15th Street. Is that just the amount of volume? And I know lots of times trash gets caught up in there and all. It does seem like it gets shut down a lot. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: On 104 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the elevators, too, for the record, there are two that the City has responsibility for. That would be 8th and Market and 15th and Market. Two things, Mr. Greenlee, I think you should know. One is that the useful life of that equipment at both locations is coming to its end. So it does challenge our ability to keep it running in tip-top shape, if you will. But we do have folks that work in City Hall that are assigned, meaning mechanics, that are close enough to get to both stations fast enough to respond. The other thing that happens is, every day it's a wonderful phenomenon, when the schools let out, the children hit the top panel and take it out of service.
Is that right? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. So that happens more frequently than you would think, and folks think the 105 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. escalator is not working. We just go over, hit the button and it starts up again.
So it's just a button there you can hit? Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: We do have challenges --
It sounds too tempting. I think you and I might have tried that when we were kids. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yeah, probably. But it does happen, and pretty much we have folks that, as far as I'm concerned, it's their job to make sure at 3 o'clock they pay attention to the operations of that equipment.
Okay. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: You're welcome.
Thank you very much. 106 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: You're welcome.
My name is Rocco Iacullo. I'm a staff attorney at the Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania. And I apologize for coming in in the last minute with some comments. Unfortunately, we did not find out about this hearing until Sunday. I was away Thursday and Friday, which is actually one concern that I did want to just put forward, that there was some last-minute notice of this hearing and I think that's why there's not as much representation from the disability community.
You 107 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. received a notice at the last minute?
Yes. I actually didn't receive it until over the weekend. I was away on a retreat for my office on Thursday and Friday and got it from Roger Margulies from the Mayor's Commission. I'm not sure when he received the notice, but it was just one concern I did want to --
Well, there was an original hearing, I know, two months ago and that was cancelled. I don't know all the logistics of it. I just know that I didn't receive it, so there was an issue with that.
So I did just want to put that on the record. That might indicate why there's not a whole lot of representation with the disability community here. 108 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. But I did want to respond briefly to some comments made by SEPTA. Specifically, the one resolution I know was about -- you were inquiring about why City Hall station is not accessible, and it is accurate that what Ms. Jones said, that that is in litigation. I'm actually co-counsel on that case with Steve Gold. However, I did want to respond, because I don't believe that the litigation -- I'm not going to get into discussion of the legal issues of that case and I know SEPTA is not required to. They do not have their counsel here. But I believe that at this point in time, the issue of making City Hall accessible going forward is really not technically a part of that litigation any longer. There is one minor alteration claim under the ADA with regard to a replacement of an escalator, but other than that, discussion of the City Hall project that is on the books at the current time that was discussed I believe 109 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. is open for discussion, and what I believe the point of this was was to find out whether that project is going to be moved forward. Obviously there's always cost considerations and funding issues, and I guess if that's the big question here, is whether SEPTA is not -- not what happened in the past, but going forward, is SEPTA going to devote funding to make a commitment to make sure that that project moves forward to ensure that City Hall station is made accessible in the near future, let's say five to ten years, versus 40 years down the line, and I believe that that -- I just wanted to respond, because I don't think that that question has been answered whether there's a commitment there. So I would hope that SEPTA might be willing to discuss in a little bit more detail where that project stands and whether they're going to commit the money to that project to move it forward. And I don't believe that that is going to have any effect on 110 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the litigation at this point. So I just wanted to make a comment about that.
I did hear about the plans, but I didn't hear about the financial commitment.
Sure. Which is always a consideration, and I don't know if they have that commitment right now to move it forward or what the plan. So I just was wondering if maybe we might be able to hear a little bit more about that project and whether it's moving forward. That's the first thing. And if anyone wants to respond, they can. If they don't, that's fine as well. I think that that's what you wanted to hear today.
Wait a minute. Does anyone from SEPTA care to respond to that at this point?
Frances Jones, Manager of Government Affairs. I don't have that information 111 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. with me today, but we can get that information back to you with the other response that we're getting back to you.
But they do have the information? You don't know whether there's a financial commitment or whether they're going to be able to make a financial commitment?
We're looking at what the cost is. At this point, the cost is astronomical, but, of course, because City Hall is the center of the City, there is a commitment from SEPTA to do what we need to do. And I'll get that information to you, the cost.
Yes, and about the commitment, if there is a commitment there.
I just have a few other brief comments. I know that the paratransit issue has been discussed 112 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. before I came up here, and I am fully aware of the ADA regulations that are in place, which I know sometimes members of the disability community do not fully understand those regulations and why the changes have occurred with the conditional eligibility. There is a particular issue that my organization has been concerned about with regard to the conditional eligibility. Again, I'm not here to attack SEPTA, because I believe that on physical disability cases, their eligibility determination process, that we have not seen really any major issues with that. It seems like they have the evaluation, a functional evaluation. In most cases they are making the right determination. I'm not going to say it's foolproof, that there's never mistakes made, but that seems to be okay. Our concern is with people with cognitive disabilities and how the application process applies to those 113 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. individuals and whether SEPTA has a sufficient process in place to get the determination right with regards to those type of disabilities. We're talking about people who physically may be capable of getting on and off of a bus, but because of their mental disability or cognitive impairment are not able to follow routes, are not able to transfer between buses without getting lost, and our concern with that has been that the application seems to be geared towards people with physical disabilities, and to the point that if you don't answer some of those questions, that SEPTA may actually reject the application, and a lot of those questions are not applicable to people with cognitive disabilities. I also don't believe that they have an evaluation process like the functional assessment at Moss Rehab for people with cognitive disabilities. There's just some concern there about how SEPTA is meeting that 114 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. particular population's need and whether those individuals are able to get full-time paratransit as they should. So there is a concern there. The third point I just wanted to make -- and I won't take much more of your time -- SEPTA has gotten much better on the physical side with vehicles, structures. I applaud them. I mean, their buses now are -- their fleet is a hundred percent accessible. They've apparently made a commitment to purchasing 400 new low-floor buses, which is the preferred option of the disability community because of the fact that they deploy the ramp much quicker, it's much more efficient, less prone to breakdowns. That is great. They are on the Market-Frankford El making a lot of stations accessible. The regional rail stations, while I understand that that is costly, I believe that more can be done with regard to stations on the regional rail line, which would affect the people 115 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. with disabilities who live in suburban counties who may be employed who want to travel to Philadelphia. I think more could be done on some of those lines to make more regional rail stations accessible. But overall, I think what we're moving towards now is issues of really training and how the accessible features are maintained and operated. I think that's going to be very important, and I'm not sure how well SEPTA has done in that regard. There have been major problems with some elevators, Girard Avenue, outages with elevators. It's not clear whether there is a policy with regard to maintaining lifts on buses to make sure that they are operational, and also just training with regard to personnel. I have more experience with the regional rail lines than the buses. I personally have had a lot of experiences with that, and a lot of conductors on the trains seem to know 116 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC.
their responsibility under the ADA, but there are a lot of other ones who do not seem to recall their training with regard to assisting individuals with wheelchairs getting on and off the train. It's very important actually at some points, because a bridge plate needs to be deployed from the train to allow a wheelchair user to get off the train onto platforms. There's a lot of gaps that cannot be traversed by a wheelchair without that bridge plate, and that seems to be a major problem on the regional rail lines where conductors -- I take the train on a regular basis, so once the one team of conductors gets to know me and expects me to be on the train, it works very smoothly. But if you get on a train with a new crew, a lot of times it seems like they don't know that they need to go get the bridge plate while you're stopped at the station. In fact, they have forgotten on many occasions to go get the bridge plate and have almost moved on to 117 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. the next station, which could be bad because if the next station is inaccessible, that person in the wheelchair is stuck on the train. So I believe that there can be some better training with regard to the regional rail operation. And these are issues that really impact people with disabilities. I myself am an attorney. I can deal with those inconveniences and sometimes those major inconveniences, but there's a lot of people with disabilities who do not have the level and the skills that I have, and that can be very upsetting to a person and a discouragement to them to use the public transit, which is what we are encouraging. We agree with the ADA regulations with paratransit. It was designed to help people while the main system was not accessible. It was a temporary fix to help them, but the goal was to get people to use the regular 118 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. fixed-route transit system. So that should be our goal here. And these training issues, though, do provide a discouragement to people with disabilities and maybe why some people would like paratransit to still cover them, even though we know it doesn't. They still want that because they're afraid of using the main fixed-route system because of these everyday operational issues with bus drivers passing people up, conductors not knowing that they have to get a bridge plate for people. That can be discouraging and lead people with disabilities to think that, Look, we don't want to take that because we don't want to get stuck somewhere. We just want to get to where we're going. So that was my only comment, is I think that more can be done on the training side and with those issues. Again, with the facilities, SEPTA has done an excellent job, again, with the 119 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. commitment of the low-floor buses, things like that, the facilities, but I think there also needs to be a commitment to the training and making sure that that is working the best that it can be. Thank you.
Madam Chair. Just quickly, sir, on that, and I don't want to get into this too much, because we got a whole resolution still to go, but on that cognitive disability issue that you raise, could you get to the Chair a little more detail on that as far as the requirements vis-a-vis ADA and what SEPTA is doing. You said about the questions. Maybe a suggestion of questions that would be different to meet that group, that kind of thing.
Actually, I would have a suggestion that maybe somehow a different application could be developed 120 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. that could apply particularly to people with cognitive disabilities, because the whole issue is, as Mr. Foley explained, the functional ability of a person with a disability to use the regular fixed-route system. So a person with a cognitive disability, it's not a physical aspect, it's the mental ability to be able to follow the routes, things like that. And right now the application is about 12 pages, and I'd say 75 percent of that is 13 geared towards questions dealing with 14 physical disability questions, can you 15 wheel your wheelchair, do you have a 16 motorized wheelchair, things like that, 17 and they're really not questions about if 18 you have a cognitive disability. 19 I mean, I think there should be 20 a way to bypass all those questions, and 21 I think sometimes, from what we have 22 heard, that applications have been rejected because they didn't fill out the questions about the physical disabilities, but it didn't apply to 121 10/22/07 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 070084, ETC. them.