it is preservationists right it is yes indeed architects yes planners yes
and the zoning code establishes six criteria there is only one preservationist on on the commission
okay now the zoning code establishes six criteria for the historical commission to apply
on review of a plan for development in a historic district isn't that right
i don't have the criteria for the historic district in front of me because this is a zoning hearing
yeah i mean i'll i won't object yet i i thought he was going towards a zoning issue but uh i mean
I mean, I'll just object, but go ahead.
I'll just object, but go ahead, you continue on.
You continue on.
But this is a zoning issue, not historical commission.
And the recognized experts on the historical commission approved the plan that's before the ZBA, didn't they?
They did.
And you were hired by Mr. DeMarco or by his client to oppose the historical commission approval, weren't you?
Yes, I did do that.
Objections.
Sistine, I think that's kind of a leading question there.
Well, okay.
She made an opinion.
I think she was hired for her expert opinion.
Right.
Right.
And your expert opinion is counter to the Historical Commission, isn't it?
It is.
I researched in detail the requirements of the Spring Garden Historic District,
and I'd be happy to discuss those criteria with you.
But again, this is a zoning hearing.
Right.
And your opinion is that the Historical Commission
should not have granted the approval in this case.
Isn't that right?
That is correct.
Object to relevance at this point, Mr. Chairman.
I got the answer.
And you're aware that your client participated intensely in the process before the Historical Commission, aren't you?
I was not present at those Historic Commission hearings.
Well, you know for a fact that through the historical commission process, which involved meeting with staff, meeting with committees, and ultimately presenting to the board, your client, represented by Mr. DeMarco, participated, right?
I was not involved in the project during that time.
That wasn't my question. My question is, you're aware that your client, represented by Mr. DeMarco, participated in that process, right?
If you say no, I don't know. I did not experience it.
Are you telling me if she answers, she doesn't know.
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that, and I'd like to ask a follow-up question.
Is it your testimony that you're entirely unaware of Mr. DeMarco's vehement opposition on behalf of Mooring Properties and the owner of Mooring Properties before the Historical Commission?
Objection. I don't oppose anything. I represent a client.
Is this about me or the case?
my question is are you aware of their participation in that lengthy process that
took six months objection asked and answered
let her let janice answer i'm aware of it right
and you're coming before the zoning board making the same arguments about my client's proposed
project here aren't you no no no i'm not at all the zoning criteria
hold on janice go ahead mr chairman yep yeah janice
you know my objection is you have an objection yeah okay what's your objection
he's cross-examining on the historical commission's all different standards we're here for zoning
and whether the property suffers from unnecessary hardship
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, I'm cross-examining this witness on statements that this witness has made in other filed pleadings.
I have her exhibit. I have her, which contains her opinions and her conclusions.
This is fair cross-examination.
If it's...
All right, let's proceed.
We're wasting time, but go ahead.
whatever now because you disagree with the decision of the historical commission
you're before the zoning board suggesting that the historical commission made a mistake right
objection no that's that's not a question or a statement it's a it's a cross it's
cross-examination and it can be answered yes or no
she's here to okay go ahead jess if you can i'm here for a zoning hearing if that's what
i'm here for a zoning hearing if that's what your question is i'm sorry i'm not quite understanding it
your question is i'm sorry i'm not quite understanding it
okay now you presented a shadow study in this matter didn't you
i presented a shadow study in the zoning hearing yes in this matter before this zoning
board of adjustment right yes
yes said yes okay now that shadow study did not show any shadow cast by the property across 20th
street did it no i did not include that particular building right but you agree that shadow is cast
by the building across 20th street in the early a.m don't you i didn't include that building and
so i haven't studied enough to answer that well you saw you saw our exhibit didn't you you saw
i don't disagree with your exhibit but my i think my zip exhibit was more to the point
well you saw our shadow study and it was after you saw that that you prepared your own right
we had back and forth a shadow study several times
Ms. Woodcock isn't it a fact that you saw our shadow study and then you prepared your own
shadow study I wanted to make mine clearer yes but you also did one in response if we want to go
there all i'm asking ms woodcock is if you saw ours before you prepared yours i don't recall okay
now our shadow study showed the impact of the property across the street didn't it that's what
you said and i saw that yes and your shadow study didn't i did not again i did not revise
mine because again my study showed things that I felt had a bigger impact on the site.
Now your shadow study didn't show the difference between the shadow cast by a 38-foot building,
which could be built as of right, and the shadow cast by a 50-foot building, did it?
no it did not so the viewer of your shadow study doesn't know the difference between the shadow
cast by a 38-foot building and a 50-foot building right but if we use your study we clearly saw that
there was a difference between the two and there was more shadows on the 50-foot building
do you remember my question objection argumentative question she answered his question
don't argue she didn't mr chairman i asked does your shadow study differentiate does your shadow
study does your shadow i said no okay does your shadow study inform the viewer
where the 38 foot shadow ends and the 50 foot shadow begins it does not right yeah
does your shadow study show the full impact of the shadow cast by the city view
condominium garage behind the subject properties
yes does your shadow study show the full impact of the shadow cast by the city view
apartment towers on subject properties does anything my clients are doing at 2000 spring
garden street have any impact whatsoever on the existing shadows from the city view project
the purpose of that uh is to show that of the remaining shadow or sunlight left
that your project does in fact take some of that sunlight
Ma'am, my question was, does my client's construction at 2000 Spring Garden Street
affect the existing shadow signature of City View?
It does not. It has nothing to do with it.
Can I please pause for a second? On behalf of the court reporter, please ask the questions
and let the person answer
so we can get a full complete record.
Thank you kindly.
Now, you were hired by your client
in the historical commission appeal?
You were hired by your client
in this appeal before the ZBA?
Yes, this is not a volunteer job.
Right.
And you were hired by Mr. DeMarco in the matter pending at 418 South 20th Street?
no objection what's what what's that have to do with it what what it goes to bias it goes to bias
Objection.
What's that have to do with it?
it goes to this network working with well you're attacking her credibility i think that i wasn't
hired by mr demarco i was i was gonna say i don't hire anyone hold on hold on one at a time
please i'm a i'm objecting because i don't hire anybody my clients hire experts so the question
itself is improper, but it's also irrelevant. Go ahead. How many other matters are you working on
at this time with Mr. DeMarco? What is the relevance of that, Mr. Miller? It shows bias.
No, I mean, if that were the case, I don't think we would have any hearings.
There are attorneys who have multiple clients and bring in some expert witnesses.
Sometimes they're the same that they've used in some cases.
Sometimes they're not.
I think that's an improper question.
And let's move on, please.
And there's very few of them, Mr. Chairman.
Please.
That's it.
Those are all my questions to this witness.
Thank you, Mr. Miller.
Thank you.
very brief redirect uh mr chairman uh miss woodcock uh you were hired to render an expert
opinion in both the historical commission process and the zoning board process in this matter
correct it was you were hired by molly gallagher to render an opinion that you felt was correct
right i was and if you you were asked to reach an opinion which we didn't but if if you were to be
asked to reach in a certain opinion if you didn't agree with it you would not take the case right
right all right and the standards for variance involve unnecessary hardship which are completely
irrelevant to the historical commission case would you agree that's true all right yes you would
agree um so mr chairman i have a a few additional questions because i'm realizing that there were
three or four questions that i did not ask during my original direct because that's when you stopped
us. I'll get them in and then we'll be done. All right. Ms. Woodcock, where we were in your
direct testimony, I had a few additional questions. One was, in your opinion as an
architect, because you are an architect as well, right? Correct. Is it possible physically to build
a structure which would not require variances on this site, in your expert opinion? Very possible.
And is it also possible that even if you sought a height variance for 2000 Spring Garden,
you could still reduce the impact on the structure by keeping the height variance towards the front of the property, correct?
If you did that, yes, that would be consistent with the other buildings on the block.
Okay. And that could be done physically, right?
There's nothing to stop a developer from seeking a smaller height variance.
Isn't that right?
That is correct.
All right.
And in your expert opinion, has the applicant during his case presented sufficient evidence that there is an unnecessary hardship to the property, which necessitates the variances?
Objection. That's the ultimate question for the board to decide, not for this witness to testify to.
Right. I agree.
Sustained.
Mr. Chairman, she's an expert, and that's why we hired her, to render an expert opinion.
she is an expert in zoning that's what she's you don't have to you don't have to take the objection
the objection was sustained that's what her opinion is we yeah but i have to object we
need a record here that's what we hired her for to render that opinion
mr chairman i just cross-examined the witness based on her direct testimony
All right. Well, it's in a report. I mean, okay. I'm done. I have no further questions.
Mr. Bowen. I have nothing, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I have one follow-up,
following, recross following the redirect. Please proceed. Thank you.
Ms. Woodcock, isn't it a fact that the plan that's before the board has already been vetted,
reviewed, and approved by the Historical Commission? Yes, it has. Thank you.
anyone else
you guys rest
uh no no
No, no.
I'm Molly Gallagher.
you said you had no one else
Oh, okay.
You said you had no one else.
I thought you were resting
I thought you were arresting.
I'm sorry
I'm sorry.
Oh, no.
I was done with Janice is what I meant.
Molly Gallagher.
Let me tell you so you know.
I'm Molly Gallagher, Bob Sutton, Lisa Hastings, and Kathleen Harleman.
Are these experts or are these neighbors?
Neighbors.
Near neighbors.
Are they all going to tell us the same thing?
I would say no.
All right.
Let's go.
Molly Gallagher, please.
Molly, can you hear us?
Write it down here.
Mr. Miller, you may want to mute yourself.
Can you hear me?