I know you'd tell me if you did, and I know you'd be concerned, but you haven't seen many, right? Or any?
Okay, all right. I just wanted to make sure we had some clarification on comments made by one of our team's owners lately. He termed it as "a rat-infested facility," which I thought was a bit unfair. Much overexaggerated and a bit unfair.
I just want to make a comment about this discussion about 80 million. I think, in fairness to them, I think that supposes that they will be there, obviously, until the end of their existing leases.
So in fairness to them, if you're going to be there for 10 or 11 years, 1125 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 it's a big difference than the charge that we gave Ewing, Cole, Cherry, Brott, which was much more than --
But also, from an editorial comment standpoint, we're being asked potentially to spend $80 million in two years, so I -- I mean, my wife, for example, she likes Jaguars but she drives a '97 Sable. She likes her '97 Sable but she'd really like to have a Jaguar. So, I mean, I'm just trying to put some kind of rationality and some practicality in our discussion as it relates to stadiums because I think sometimes we get -- not you. We get and the media and teams get a little far afield as to what it is we're talking about, but I just wanted to try to get on the record some of those issues.
I'd like to come back again, I want to get back in line.
Thank you. 1126 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00
Good afternoon. The Recreation Department's -- the Bellfield Recreation Center has been under repair for mechanical renovations for a fire that occurred before I was even elected Councilperson. There really seems to be a major problem coordinating the various building trades -- the painters couldn't paint because the electricians weren't done, the dry wall couldn't go up because the plumbers weren't done, and so on. Who coordinates these various trades? Because I'm really disappointed of how long Bellfield has been out of commission. So I guess the bottom-line question is, who coordinates that? So that work can flow smoother.
Well, if it's a capital repair, that comes under Eric Iffrig. He could give us a better discussion on that. If it's 1127 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 regular maintenance, it would come under Tom.
I'm pretty sure that comes under Eric Iffrig, Capital Budget. And he has a long history of working with Bellfield. (Eric Iffrig comes forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Eric Iffrig, Director of Planning and Construction, Recreation Department. The Bellfield Recreation Center is now under its second renovation contract. The original contractor who had the project was not completing the job anywhere near on schedule, and then we experienced the fire. In a settlement with the surety company and with that contractor, they were released from the contract, and fees were settled between the City and that contractor. The project was rebid, and a new contractor was put on. In the interim, we did let an emergency contract for the roof replacement. The new contractor now is also experiencing some problems. As far as the coordination of the work 1128 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 between the separate subcontractors, that's the responsibility of the prime general contractor.
So what are the new problems with the new contractor? The bottom line is, when is this job going to be done? I mean, do you have any idea? I constantly get calls, letters, calls, letters, calls from people. You go in a store, they stop you. When is it going to be finished?
In a word, it is not my business to say it because it is literally not my business, but we do believe that the prime contractor is having cash flow problems. As a matter of fact --
Cash flow problems, which is the classic problem with a construction contractor trying to complete a job. His credit starts to dry up, and he's unable to pay people promptly, they lose confidence in him. For instance, this Saturday, we had scheduled overtime for our inspectors because we had scheduled the installation of the epoxy 1129 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 flooring, which is one of the last steps on this job. The subcontractors did not show this weekend, and we believe, again, that there's a problem on payment, and that's why that subcontractor was called out. We're -- we can't say we're as frustrated with the progress at Bellfield, not nearly as much as the community is, but this contract is bringing us very close to completion. We have some heating ventilating duct work to complete, the floors and, I believe, the doors, and that's the principal work to be completed on this job now.
Well, maybe we'll talk later too, 'cause if there's anything we can do to help, we'd be willing to do that, okay? A couple of other questions. I'd like to have a copy of the program's division facility usage minimum standards. And is that produced by a general one for all playgrounds and then one for playgrounds that are either A, B, C or D?
The staffing is according to what they're classified. If you're classified, for instance, as an A center, you have 1130 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 a full-time supervisor, a full-time what we call "Leader I" at 40 hours, and then you have an assistant rec. leader. So the staffing there should be in that pattern. For a B-type facility, which is a midsize facility, you have a supervisor and a part-time employee. For a C facility, depending on the size of the C facility -- and I went over this before, where there are various -- some of them are larger C facilities, some are very small. They will have at least a supervisor, and some will have a supervisor and a part-time employee. So I could break it -- I could send you specific material on all of that.
And we'll get that to you, but in a nutshell, that's how we determine the programming staff, based on the determination of a facility.
Okay. And that is in regard to the facility-usage minimum standards? I have a very large facility in our district that we believe is very much 1131 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 underutilized, and if you have something in writing, then I'd like to see that.
And I think you know what facility I'm talking about. If you don't know, some of the other staff members know, and we can talk about it later and I'll tell you that.
Okay. Now, what is the average amount that a recreation center receives to put together an after-school program? What is the average grant? Someone said it's $5,000. I was at a recreation center advisory council meeting one evening, and people raised the issue that the money that they're getting really doesn't allow them to put together, you know, a good after-school program, particularly as it relates to staffing.
Well, we provide for each after-school site a staff person. We also will provide supplies. That's of no cost to the local center. If the local center would want 1132 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 additional staff, then possibly they could supplement what we do through grants, through, you know, charging the kids a small stipend, things -- but we do provide for every facility that's in the after-school program a staff person.
It's call a "rec. specialty instructor," and 95 percent of them come from the neighborhood where the after-school site is located. And the site supervisor then goes out and will recruit a person to work in the program.
Are there any minimum work or educational requirements for that position?
Well, we try to -- you know, we like to have a high-school graduate, which is pretty easy to be in these days. But, you know, we try to get some of the college kids. Now, if you have a particular site, you could let me know about that particular site because we seem not to have a problem in finding staff.
Well, I don't think you have a -- I don't think this site has a 1133 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 problem finding staff. It's just the quality of staff because -- what is the salary or hourly wage?
The salary is $8 an hour, which is, I agree with you, could be low, considered low. But, you know, that's living within our budget and trying to make maximum use of our funds.
Okay. I just want to say one more thing. I don't want to -- We sit and talk about after-school programs, after-school programs, and your programs with the girls basketball and all those other sports and activities for girls, I think, is a good idea, but even at that, that goes up to age 12. And there's a whole population out there of 13 to 18 that at some point needs to be wound into this whole after-school piece. So I just want to keep reminding the different departments not to forget those pre-teen and teenage girls and boys that need to come out -- that will hopefully come out and participate in some level of activity that's more age-specific for them than the other traditional, normal kind 1134 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 of after-school programs.
Thank you. We understand, and I know, like, for instance, in the cultural program, we've expanded that, and the vast majority of our kids will go, like, for instance to the performing arts camp, are teenagers and we -- and our dance program, we have sites that we didn't have a couple years ago, 10 and that's mostly teenagers. 11 So we are trying to address it. 12
Okay. And what 13 do the Youth Access Centers do? 14
There's a myriad of 15 activities there. In other words, they get a 16 little grant, and the supervisor at the site then 17 can set up programs -- like I'll give you one for 18 an example. Down at 58th and Kingsessing, Meyers, 19 the supervisor there established a preschool 20 program where they were able to hire neighborhood 21 people, and it really helps in that community with 22 the kids. So they have a lot of freedom on what 23 they can do. 24
And they have -- for 1135 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 instance, Meyers has a health center component to it. So there's a difference, depending on the area, but we have now, I think, six Youth Access Centers.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, maybe you can just go over some process with me, because it will have a lot to do with my question. The Recreation Department, like other departments, are, from what I understand, not responsible for their utility bills. The Department of Public Property pays the electric bill for all the recreation centers; is that correct?
I understand there's some movement to change that to put that money in your budget, so then you have some motivation, might I say, to try to conserve energy. 1136 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 I'll give you an example. I ride throughout the city, and we had a snowfall, and I ride through ballfields, I ride around where there's football fields totally covered with snow, with every light in the recreation facility at full brilliancy, every one. I was told that because of the antiquated system that we have, that we have no way to do a minimum of lighting for security purposes; that it's either they're all on, or they're all off. I would hope that we would -- and I get a lot of questions from constituents that when they get their electric bill and they live in the area of rec center -- and granted now, they don't want the lights all out, but they want some management of that lighting if it requires every other standard to be on, or just enough to secure the facility. But you can imagine a constituent riding through a neighborhood and looking at a field that's ice-covered and seeing every light on in the facility. And part of the problem is, it's just -- it's something where you don't have to pay the bill, you don't have to pay the bill, and I'm sure 1137 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 that you're concerned and you don't want to see the taxpayers' money wasted, but I think you'd be more motivated -- or at least the department would be more motivated -- if you had to pay that bill 6 every month for all that energy. Again, it's just an observation that our taxpayers have and have asked me to communicate that to you. And I've seen it myself too.
Thank you, Councilman Rizzo. In some of the neighborhood, some of the people want us to keep the lights on for security. But if we can -- in some places where we can separate it, where we can have a minimal number of lights on, we're going to do that. I understand what you're saying and I've seen that myself. But in some of the places, if we shut one off, we have to shut them all off. So we're going to look into that.
And I understand that to make those changes, it would be very, very expensive to separate some of that lighting. But you can imagine the impression, the message it 1138 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 sends to people when -- for example, I forget the facility, and I'm not even sure if it's a Recreation Department facility, up in Mt. Airy Allens Lane, the field is just coated -- it's not yours, but it's just coated completely with ice, and every light in the place is on. Thank you. Thanks for looking into that.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Could you tell me, Bellfield Recreation Center, is that an A or a B?
Also an A. And back to Bellfield. Is Bellfield -- 1139 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 is it ever going to be finished, or do you pass it on from commissioner to commissioner so you always want to be sure there's a lot left to do?
We certainly hope it's finished soon. We've had a lot of complaints, and Eric's been working with that.
I know there have been a lot of contractor problems. When do you anticipate that it will be fully completed?
Councilman, we would have expected that we would have had it completed shortly. As I said, apparently the (unintelligible) contractor is having problems with some of his subs, and we can't predict what the completion is going to be, if he, in fact, will complete the contract. His surety is involved early in this process with him. That's usually a big asset to preventing a contractor from defaulting on a job. So I believe the main items left are some mechanical work that's separate from this contractor's work, doors and flooring. Hopefully, we'll be able to complete this by the end of March. And as soon as I can 1140 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 get an update, I will give it to you, Councilman.
All right. Well, we ask you again to at least permit it to be in -- get it in a condition to be used for Election Day purposes on April the 4th.
Councilman, it has been open for Election Day and Primary Day use practically since the fire.
But the community is ceasing to believe me. They kind of yawn or laugh when I say that someday it will be done, 'cause they don't -- it's about four or five years now too. Councilwoman Miller, it's like Lonnie Young -- not maybe quite as bad as that, but not far behind it.
I raised the same question prior to you coming into the room about Bellfield Recreation Center, so. . .
Good, good. Maybe between all of us, we will get it done.
All right. Now, you 1141 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 know, it's strange when you think of the recreation centers and all of the other parts of the Recreation Department and the Vets Stadium both being in the same department and how we treat the different levels at the recreation center. We scruff around with usually inadequate custodial staffing because -- even those that are staffed well are usually the very heavily utilized centers, and it's difficult often to keep up with the cleaning facilities and so forth there because of the heavy usage, and then you think of the Vets Stadium. And so there are a few questions I would like to ask. The Recreation Department, does it, in fact, supervise the operations, the facilities of Vets Stadium?
We do that. Were there any plans by the Recreation Department with respect to the impending $6 million increase in income from the superboxes, that which was told us as the reason why we ought to approve the last lease? Because even though we were giving out a lot of money and not getting much back in, the day 1142 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 would come when the City of Philadelphia would get increased income that would help the whole Recreation Department as well as the City budget in general.
Councilman, I didn't hear the beginning of your question. I think you're referring to the --
Were there ever any plans for the use of the $6 million a year that was anticipated to come in additional payments to us by the Eagles, beginning, I think, next year? Wouldn't it begin in 2001?
Have there been any plans made for how that $6 million of increased income, or did all of you really know that it would never be paid to the City, that somehow or the other, the Eagles would find a way to prevent that clause from becoming effective? Because there was a lot of cynicism. There were a lot of people at that time that said, you know, we'll never see that $6 million a year, and those of us then in Council had to bravely stand up and say, Oh, no, you're wrong. That's, 1143 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 you know, it's in steel, that million will absolutely come 'cause the team can't get away.
Councilman, let me just 5 say, first of all, I didn't negotiate the lease 6 extensions back in 1984 and 1985, but any of the revenues that's generated at the stadium goes directly into the General Fund and it's used for, you know, the general purposes of the City, to fund all the --
So it doesn't go directly back to the Recreation Department or to the stadium, for that matter.
But it just seems to me that in the course of events, if I were an employee working one area of the government that was going to be producing additional income, I and other coworkers would be saying, Well, we sort of have first claim to that money 'cause we're helping to produce it, so let's -- what would we do with it? And the Recreation Department could find lots of uses for it. They could increase the 1144 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 custodial staffs, they could do cleanups, they could finally do the Lonnie Young Recreation Center, they could do Bellfield, they could do a whole lot of things. But there were no 6 discussions like that in your time? You were all realists; you knew the money would never come.
Well, it's General Fund money. I mean, the stadium's not set up as an enterprise fund, for example, similar to the Airport, with the Aviation Fund. It's just not set up that way. You know, it was always set up as part of the main of city government, and the revenues and the expenses are a part of the General Fund.
Yeah. Well, if it were set up like the Airport fund, it wouldn't be in the Recreation Department. So somebody had some idea of entwining both in the concept of Recreation. And it just seems to me it's a -- the Department shows it's a tremendous contrast. And like Councilman Kenney and, I'm sure, many others, I was very offended by the comment made by Jeff Lurie about the stadium. Maybe I don't go as often as many others do, but 1145 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 I've been there many, many times with family members over the years, and I never thought of it as a rat-infested place. He might as well have said "dump" instead of "stadium" when he said it was a "rat-infested stadium," and it just seemed to me that -- why didn't he change it? I've never heard him use that language before about the stadium. Has he, have we missed it here in the City? And I'm concerned about that because if we're putting in all of this money into recreation, I question whether the wiser use is putting it into professional sports teams, where, at most, a very tiny percentage of Philadelphians ever really get to the Vets Stadium on any regular kind of basis. I don't know whether you have any figures or not, but I think even on one-time users, it's probably only percent, or maybe 20 even less than that, of Philadelphians who get to see it. So we're building a stadium for the use of others, when I think we have such a demonstrated need among the young people of Philadelphia for recreational services. The other questions were kind of 1146 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 related to it. This hearing brings out the heavy contrast in the use of money. Spending a few million for the recreation for the youngsters in the city, making that available would do so much more to make the city a world-class city, I think, because it would have a positive impact with respect to crime, with respect to the educational level of the students, with respect to what we could do for the schools. It seems to me very questionable that we should be spending all of this time and energy and the potential for spending City money in the large amounts we're talking about for the stadiums. I'm going to stop the questions at this point, Madam Chair. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney. (Councilman Kenney responds off mike.)
Certainly, certainly, come back to you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter. You want me to come back to you as 1147 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 well?
All right. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown -- she's not in here chair. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
At least somebody's here. We'll let Councilwoman Miller -- I'll yield to her on one question then I'll come back.
Thank you. Thank you, colleague. What is the snow removal plan for playgrounds and parks? Because there are a few in my neighborhood that I drove by pretty much every day that didn't get shoveled.
Again, I'm Tom Fox, Recreation Facilities Director. We have to kind of take it in steps 'cause of the staffing levels we have. So the first priority is the older-adult centers, and if 1148 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 know that there's after-school programs or tot programs in the centers, we try to do those first. Then we go to A, B, C, D class centers, and then we'll move into the parks. Then breezeways and cul-de-sacs. If you would -- if you'd give me the center, I will address the one that was not done.
Okay. I just want to make one comment. You know, I just want to thank the cooperation of the people from the Recreation Department, the commissioners and their staff. You know, prior to this term, I served as Chair of Recreation, and I really did enjoy working with you, and I thought we had a good working relationship. So now that I'm back to the district, we have to get those projects in my district completed. Thank you.
I just have, I guess, more of a statement. I, too, want to thank 1149 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 you, the Rec. Department. We've had a good relationship. But what is very, very frustrating for me, and it began when I first came into Council, is the problem we have in getting these projects done. And there seems -- there ought to be some way, and I would imagine that these projects are bid through the City Procurement Department. One, I would imagine there ought to be a statement of financial capability from the contractor, that they can do the work. And that there ought to be some way to remove the contractor and allow the project to go on in another fashion. Because it took -- when I came on board in 1998, it had taken -- it took ten years to add on to Finley Rec. Center. And what happened, the money would be appropriated in the budget for the center, the bid would go out and come in over bid. Then the next year, you had to put more money in the budget. The bid is submitted, it comes in over budget, so it's just a constant, never catching up, until I just said, Hold it, all the money goes in, and we get this project done. 1150 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 What I think we need from the Recreation Department is some strong advocacy to complete these projects and for you to come up with a solution to this problem 'cause it a problem. No recreation facility or any facility should wait two, three, five years to get completed because of some contractor that can't -- and I understand the contracting business is a tough business and that people do run into financial problems, but that's their problem. You've got to find a way to complete the project for us 'cause we are held accountable by our constituents. They're waiting for the project. And it is very frustrating for us have to deal with this. So I want to I want stronger advocacy from the Rec. Department to whomever, whether it's the Procurement Department or the Capital Projects Department, to make sure that these projects are given a timeline and that they are completed. It's just very, very, very difficult.
We understand because it's frustrating for us too at times.
And you know you 1151 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 have the problem to make the change.
Well, maybe we'll find a way to make the change. I've been requested by a group, what is the rules -- what are the rules and regulations governing easements on Recreation property? You may not have an answer because it's probably a legal issue. I have a request from a church whose back is to a recreation center, and they want some easement on that land.
Yeah, okay, all right. In terms of the after-school programs, I will just share this with you. I don't know -- and we will probably have some input with this whole new after-school program committee that's going to be put together. I will share with you the same issue that Councilwoman Miller raised about the quality of programs, the kind of programs for teenagers. 1152 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 They -- I was in a meeting with a group of young people and they said -- all of them don't play basketball, all of them are not into sports, and they want someone to ask them what kind of programs they want, after-school programs they want. We have to confer with them if we expect them to use the facilities so that we have programs that can meet their needs.
We're also very interested in the coming years now with improving the quality of these programs. I know for a fact that's one of the things we're looking into. But, again, Miss Richman is going to oversee what -- how the future of our programs are going to grow.
Okay. How many people work with Mr. Iffrig's department in his department, Eric's department? He basically is in charge of all of these construction projects? Does he have enough staff?
Okay. And so what do they do generally? 1153 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00
I know he has an engineer, he has a landscape architect, he has a number of inspectors. (Eric Iffrig comes forward.)
The planning construction division is set up to implement capital projects for the Recreation Department, much as the Public Property Department or the Capital Program Office does for many other departments in the city. The Department is empowered by the Charter to initiate the design and manage the construction of the capital projects and its facilities. Bidding, of course, is through procurement. And in addition, we do, of course, make budget requests.
Now, once you submit a project to the Procurement Department for bid, what monitoring do you provide for that request?
What's supplied to Procurement for bid, the procurement process is the same for Recreation as for every other department. The procedures are that the capital project will be publicly advertised, documents 1154 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 made available, a sealed single-bid opening will be held. And the Department will, after review by Procurement, Controller's Office, other offices, receive the results of the bid, with the prices from the contractors in the order that they're deemed responsible to the requirements of the City. The Department at that point recommends an award of contract. So specifically in the bid process, once we turn it in for initiation to bid, we get the official results after the bid opening and recommend award. It then gets contracted. It goes through the contracting process through Procurement, Law, Finance, Controller. The whole process, once we turn the job over, takes about four months, and that's all according to procedure. That's from the day we initiate the bid practically -- it's out of our direct supervision, except for the recommendation of award.
Now, this contractor that you had problems with on Bellfield, will he be allowed to bid again on a Recreation project? 1155 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00
The standard qualification for a contractor in the City of Philadelphia is different from any other place, as it is not annually or any other means. It's a job by job. So for this project, this contract, every contractor, everyone who want to bid a job, must submit for each bid a five-page qualification statement, with additional information if needed. On that, they show their financial position. We try to evaluate from the information that we know on accounting principles what we should be looking for in their funding review. We review their previous experience, we look at how long they've been in business, and we check their references occasionally. When they're new to us, when they're new contractors to us, we're usually a little more careful, and we talk to the contractors to make sure that they're not going to have any special problems by not being familiar with the City processes. This particular contractor is a successful private contractor, he's experienced in major renovations and, I believe, won awards for 1156 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 -- he completed a major project, a very hard project for us at another site. As I said, I believe it's specifically a business problem that he's having at this point. And the fact that he has his surety involved now, he's not avoiding the issues, not avoiding his responsibilities, and he's continuing to work through it, that I really believe we'll get this project finished at last. Trust me.
Okay, I still state my -- I'm just flabbergasted. Well, the process just takes too long, too long. And I'm asking that you all find a faster way to get these projects completed. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon. And I, too, want to compliment the Recreation Department for all the 1157 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 hard work that you do during the year, and you're very responsive to my requests, I know, in my district, and I appreciate all of that. The issue on scaffolding. I know, on -65 and 35-68, it references the scaffolding rental. Primarily I believe it's used for the Mural Arts program, and Jane Golden and I have had some discussion about this. And I believe at the time when I spoke to Jane about this, we were renting the scaffolding, primarily because we didn't have anyplace to store it if we were to buy it. Is that still the reason we are renting, or are there other reasons for that? I mean, it's a considerable amount of money, which I obviously would like to see put back into the program or programs and do the one-time purchase of the scaffolding, as opposed to renting.
Initially, it was a problem because we needed to transport the scaffolding, and we have on loan a truck, which has been helpful. We have -- we were able to -- in last year's budget, we received some scaffolding from 1158 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 the equipment pool, and as of today, it has not been purchased yet. But I hear good news -- that we should be getting it any day now, and that would be great, and we'll be able to use that on some projects. Tom Conway, from the Graffiti Abatement Program, has informed me that we can use part of his warehouse to store the scaffolding. Fiscally, obviously, it makes good sense for us to own scaffolding, so I hope that we can continue to have this truck and some space, and with this new purchase of scaffolding, we'll be able to make a dent in the rental bill. But also, we have at any given time 10 to 15 projects going on, so it still necessitates that we rent some scaffolding 'cause it's just an enormous amount of scaffolding that we would have to purchase.
I understand that, but I think there would be a basic number that you could -- of scaffolding, pieces of scaffolding that you can use as the base for all of the other projects, and that that would reduce the debt, 'cause I'd rather see that money get put back into the program, as you would also. And you and 1159 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 I have spoken about that.
Absolutely, yes, I would. And I'm quite excited that the scaffolding -- we'll be getting the scaffolding really soon.
Okay, thank you. And as I mentioned to you privately, if there's anything I can do about finding some space for a -- maybe not a large amount but a small amount of scaffolding, I do have a facility which we can share, all right? I mean, that offer's still on the table.
Excuse me, Councilman. This is a councilman who has snow removal machines and all of that, so I guess he does have storage space.
Don't advertise that. Yeah, I know, I have the facilities, I have a lot of storage space. Thank you, thank you. Rental of parking spaces. What is that? Parking spaces?
This is Josephine Mangano again. We have in our budget money for the 1160 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 rental of parking spaces. The Recreation Department is highly decentralized department. So, therefore, we have employees who supervise districts, and they have maybe about rec. 6 centers, staff rec. centers under their 7 supervision and other facilities, and they're 8 assigned a vehicle. 9 It used to be that the Department of 10 Public Property would pay for all the parking 11 charges, but a couple of years ago, they changed 12 their policy, and they kept as a base anybody that 13 had included -- whose payments had been included 14 and any requests we have above that base, we 15 request rental of parking spaces. It's not only for employees who are assigned vehicles; it's for employees who use their own car to coordinate programs, such as our after-schools program, where we have 10 coordinators and they go around center to center. They use their own cars but we do provide them with parking spaces when they do have to come into Center City for meetings.
If I understand that, as it relates to the Recreation Department 1161 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 vehicles, the employee private vehicles aside for the moment, is this for overnight parking? Is that what we're paying for? I'm missing the point.
Well, some of it is for overnight parking if it's -- but a lot of it is for daytime parking. When we have our district managers come in for their periodic meetings, we have a parking pass for them that's on a daily basis, a daily rate.
Okay, I understand now. I just was curious as to whether we were still paying for overnight parking outside of Center City. All right, I can understand that, all right. The only other question I had was as it relates to Veterans Stadium. It was testified today -- I believe Mr. Grillone?
Grillone, okay. Councilman Kenney had asked some questions about the condition of Veterans Stadium, and I believe the other morning you were here and you testified to some extent as to what we had either budgeted 1162 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 or had spent over the course of about ten years, and it was somewhere in the vicinity of 64 or $65 million, if I recall correctly?
Right. So if you break that number down over the course of 9 years, it would be roughly 6.4 million a year. If 10 you took the 8 years -- because it was a question of 8 to 10 years -- it would be roughly 10 million a year -- or 8 million a year, I'm sorry, $8 million a year. So when we look at the number of 40 million and 80 million which are being tossed around as it relates to the maintenance of Veterans Stadium going forward, whether we build new stadiums or not, and you condense that, what is typically an average of 8 million a year, for the sake of this conversation, and you squeeze it into 2, you get to the 80 million. What I'm getting at is if the report that you got from the engineers or the consultants, those were for minimal repairs or to keep us up to code going forward, with the 1163 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 anticipation of building new stadiums?
And that came to to million over or years, so we're back around that 6 to 8 million a year cost for maintaining the facility?
So if we said 10 $80 million and we spread it out over 10 years, as 11 opposed to condensing it into 2 years, barring any 12 unforeseen major structural problems, electrical 13 problems to the facility, we would be basically 14 spending about what we have been appropriating for 15 the last ten years anyway. 16
With the exception - as 19 I said before, unless you get to the point where 20 some of these big-ticket items have to be 21 replaced. 22
I understand that, 23 and we all go through those things with our house 24 know. We know we have certain built-in expenses, but when the roof goes and we don't anticipate it, 1164 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 it becomes a bigger-ticket item, and I can appreciate that. 'Cause I'm just trying to still deal with this whole issue on the 40 to 80 million, and I'm trying to figure out a way of justifying that number somehow in my mind. And the only other question as it relates to stadiums, I know in the summer we hired temporary employees, they're called"Recreation Attendant Trainees."
RATs. Do they work in the stadium, by any chance? Do any RATs work in the stadium? (Laughter.)
No, I'm serious. I mean, do Recreation Attendant Trainees work in the stadium? Are they assigned to the stadium, any of them? I thought I could crack the case on the 1165 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 rats here, you know, and put this to rest once and for all. No?
Okay, thank you. No further questions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
There was one study made by somebody about what repairs might be needed over the next few years, about three or four years ago, the one that some of us have talked about, that we understood called for about $23 million in repairs that were there then needed.
And early fall, and it 1166 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 included roughly three to four years out.
Right. And was that done in connection with the requirement of the lease that the City maintain the stadium? In other words, was it done to see what was needed as a requirement of the lease, or was it done just as a study of what the stadium needs? From time to time, do you have stadiums made like that?
Right, it was just done as part of our normal management of the facility. I mean, we needed some guidelines and a blueprint going forward as to, you know, what we're going to need.
That was my initial reason for, you know, asking for it. Initially, we didn't know about the new stadiums. When it finally came time to engage these engineers, there was a lot of, obviously, information out there that the likelihood of new stadiums was on the horizon. So, therefore, we kind of narrowed their 1167 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 focus.
So, therefore, you'll see nothing in the report that goes out six, seven, eight, nine, ten years.
Yeah, right, based on a set of priorities that are relatively conservative.
It means that, for example, if we get into three years from now and there is a new stadium on the horizon about to be built, the normal useful life, life-cycle information would tell you that we probably should replace the playing surface, for example. But in light of new stadium coming on board, it doesn't really make sense to make that significant of an investment in a new field if we're only going to be there for another year.
And at that point when you say we'll make that decision, would you 1168 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 refer to not putting on a new field as maybe "deferred maintenance"?
We would do what we could in the way of maintenance to get us through that final year, let's say, in this theoretical example that I'm giving you.
What does "deferred maintenance" really mean? Is that a term of art? What would you --
In my mind, it means, you know, making kind of minor repairs that can kind of get you through the next period of time, rather than making a full-scale replacement or a rehabilitation.
Yes. We have a staff down there that does maintenance, yes.
And you're comfortable that we're doing the maintenance that we're supposed to be doing under the terms of the lease, right?
Yeah, I'm comfortable, but I'm not going to give you a legal conclusion, 1169 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 obviously.
But in the normal working time, do you think we're meeting our requirements?
Yeah. I think we're doing okay. I think there's probably a difference of opinion.
They probably would like to see a higher level of maintenance, but generally, I think we're doing okay.
It's always easier to spend somebody else's money than your own, isn't it?
And that's why we traditionally have landlord-tenant disputes, even amongst people who agree on everything else. But if the landlord and tenant, they'll have different ideas as to what they ought to get. 1170 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 But we have, as a policy, have been deferring maintenance, haven't we? We've been doing what we've felt we had to do under the terms of the lease from a -- not -- I don't want a legal decision. I mean, from the people in charge. If you felt something had to be done so that the place could be useful to use, you would deal with it, right?
Incidently, are there any outstanding loans on the Vets Stadium now based upon any building that's ever occurred before? Are there still City bonds which we owe money for the Vets Stadium?
I think the original bonds are just about completed. But, obviously, throughout the years, as we've done capital improvements, they've become a part of our general, you know, debt service, so I think there are outstanding bonds. I think somebody from the Finance Department could -- is probably more of an expert.
Is there somebody 1171 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00 here from the Finance Department? Could anybody answer the question? (Rob Dubow comes forward.)
The question is, is there any money owed now? Are there any bonds issues?
Rob Dubow. Yes, there's a little bit left, as Greg said, on the original bond, I think just a couple of million. And then there is debt outstanding on bonds floated to finance repairs to the stadium over the last 30 years.
Over the last 30 years, we've continued to do repairs. For instance, we talked about the repairs done over the last eight years. There were bonds issued to fund those repairs, and the bonds are still outstanding.
Can tell us what the total amount of bonds -- of money now owed on the old stadium?
I'd have to get back to you on that. I can get you that information, but I don't have it with me today. 1172 OPERATING BUDGET CONT'D. - BILL 05 - 2/16/00
Now, the Recreation Department also has the responsibility for the senior-citizen centers throughout the City?