Do you see more fires due to the electrical of faulty installation or just old electrical installations versus a space heater? I mean, is this happening more in one end versus the person smoking a cigarette? COMMISSIONER AYERS: They run pretty close together, but if you say due to electrical causes, you would combine electrical appliances and the improper use with the permanent and non-permanent 104 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. electrical wiring, and it would trump probably everything on the list. We see houses where people don't use professionals. They'll overload circuits, put three and four circuits on one breaker at the same time, three or four appliances on one circuit. We see people who do haphazard jury-rigging wiring. It causes deaths, causes fires and injuries. The one key piece that we saw out of all of this, even with the electrical problems that we run into, is that with the smoke alarm program that we've been doing, we saw a dramatic 33 percent reduction in injuries. That's unprecedented. We never saw anything like that. So to us, we're still looking at it. We feel that people are getting the early warning and getting out of the way of the fire. It's just -- I mean, what else would you attribute it to? The fires only dropped 2.4 percent. The injuries dropped 33 percent. 105 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
Commissioner, a person that's out there -- we have an election coming up on May the 15th. People have the right to run for public office in this great democracy. A person that's running for public office, a non-incumbent, said this about your Fire Department to one of the local Spanish language newspapers. He said that the Fire Department is a disaster and that you make an emergency call and your entire family burns because of the inefficiency in this department. Have people died in any of the fires since you've been a fireman, since you've been the Commissioner due to the inefficiency of your department? And I quote. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely not. The men and women in the Philadelphia Fire Department, paramedics and firefighters, they go out, they give 110 percent. They do it all the time. 106 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. They put their selves in jeopardy all the time. I have a...
I consider this statement to be appalling and irresponsible. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I have a firefighter in the hospital right now -- or he just came home. He just came home. He's got a long time before he heals. He and the other members who went down with him in the fire trying to save a man and several folks -- we got some people out. We got two or three people out. We saved them. The one person we couldn't get out, he died. But right now he's facing recovery, pain, surgery. He's got a cast from his hip to his toe, trying to save somebody. So I don't care what they're running for or what they're doing. If they're making statements like that, they have not examined the Philadelphia Fire Department. They have not done a case 107 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. study on us. They don't know what we do. And it's obvious to me that they're just saying something, whatever it is. But I need to -- if I could get that, I'd like to respond to that person with a personal letter to him.
I'll make that available to you. Another area of your administration -- and this started quite a few years ago because it's the right thing to do and we're also very conscious of this. We're very conscious in this City Council and I would say all of us in this City know the importance of equality across the board, and the equality of minority inclusion is also an issue of -- minority inclusion in City jobs. What are your numbers nowadays with the inclusion of African-Americans and Latinos in your Fire Department? COMMISSIONER AYERS: African-Americans, approximately 25 percent, 27 percent. Latinos, 108 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. approximately seven percent, somewhere around in there.
Excuse me. May I ask how many women? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Women, it's approximately, say, two percent. It's a very low percentage. It's one of our goals, to increase the women in the Fire Department. We have women in the current classes, but we want to do more to increase women, other minorities as well.
I've been, since I was elected to this Council, holding yearly job fairs right outside my office, and one of the things that I always do is make available to the public that's interested to come and apply for City jobs, with special emphasis on Police and Fire. And I put it out through the different mediums, the small community newspapers throughout the City 109 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. in Southwest Philly, all over the place, to come. And I see that you do that quite a bit. It seems like there has been some success in doing that. Is there things that you've seen that holds back a minority community, whether Hispanic, black, Asian, women, from joining your department? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I think that we have to stay diligent with recruitment in all communities, all communities, making sure that the opportunity to come into the fire service or Police Department or any other departments where people can get good, solid work and become fruitful, tax-paying citizens and bring up their families and do all of the things -- the quality of life things that we hear coming from Council and coming from the Mayor, the things that we'd like to have the opportunity to do, and, that is, provide jobs. We want to provide jobs 110 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. here. We want good, solid citizens for the Fire Department. And it is just making sure that we stay on our recruitment, education, making sure people know the opportunity is there.
And just recently, a few months ago, I was at a graduation at your facility and promotions of Latino firefighters, and I think it's the first time in the history of the Fire Department that a group of Latinos that have -- the numbers have grown, and because of it, they're moving up the ladder. And it was a lot of pride in the Spanish language newspapers. It was all over the place. I want to commend you for your efforts, but we still got a little ways to go. But it made a lot of people of that ethnic group very proud that their own was moving up and equal in the Department. So I want to thank you publicly for the work you're doing in that area. 111 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you, and I will submit to you that the men and women in the Latino community that come in the fire service, they work hard for the entire community and they work hard in their own community. So it's just an example of what people do when they stay focused on the mission of the Fire Department and dedicate themselves. So it is an opportunity and I was proud to be a part of that.
Well, we're proud of you. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. I just want to thank you for the fine job that the Fire Department does. I just want to pick up on the 112 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. question that Councilman Ramos was asking. How many Asians do you have? Do you have any that are firefighters? Or in the category of other, other than women, African-Americans, Hispanics? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I believe currently we have approximately three Asians. What I will do is, I will double-check that number on firefighter and paramedic and I'll get it back to you.
Okay. I was just wondering, because Philadelphia has so many different groups of residents now, it would be nice if everybody was represented. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely. I personally recruited in the Asian community for the last recruitment. I talked to several groups, talked to them about the opportunity, and we will do so again.
And what made me think of that is that I go to a 113 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. nail shop to get my nails done and an Asian gentleman does my nails and he's no 4 longer there because he's actually in the Police Academy. I'm like, Oh, my God, he left to become a cop, but anyway... I just also want to know, how many paramedics do you presently have and how many do you need? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Two hundred twenty presently and 30 that we need.
So once you finish these last two classes, then your vacancy will only be 30? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The vacancy for the current configuration will be a little less than 30.
Are police officers trained to be paramedics? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. 22
Okay. COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. We have some emergency medical technicians that we have trained and that is for the 114 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. special teams within the Police Department, and we partner -- any time they need that service, we partner with them so that they can get their teams trained.
Okay. Now, just regarding the factors, I'd like to ask a question regarding the Operation Stand Down program. What are the factors that makes a neighborhood a high-risk area other than -- you did state that it's an area where there's recent fire deaths. Are there any other factors that would make a neighborhood high risk? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, Councilwoman. We look at the numbers of fires, we look at the numbers of injuries and we look at the community, the age of the community, conditions in the community. And a lot of the times just the fires are indicators, but, unfortunately, we also get the injuries and the deaths along with that. And with Stand Down what we did was, instead of -- 115 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. on a regular basis, we train approximately eight companies a day, take them out of service and they train at the Fire Academy or at other facilities depending on what the subject is. And instead of doing that training, over a period of time what we did was, we took those eight companies and had them partner with other companies in high-hazard areas and assisted them in installing smoke alarms and putting out fire prevention literature. So we shut the City down for everything with the exception of putting up smoke alarms and putting out fire prevention literature. Of course, with the exception of any emergencies that happened.
Right. I ask that question because I was wondering how you selected what areas you go in and do door to door to distribute smoke alarms. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We actually look at the census tract and 116 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. then we take it down to the street segments themselves. So this block is a block where firefighters have been on three or four times for fires, and we would actually go into that block and target it.
And I was looking at your chart, your death analysis chart from 1996 to 2006. I know for a while when we first started NTI, demolishing properties, I know that when we were demolishing properties, you said fires were going down. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
Because we had gotten rid of so many abandoned buildings. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
But it's kind of interesting that -- and they went down for 2002, 3 and 4, and then we sort of had a spike of fire deaths in the incidents in 2005. They were going down good 2002, 2003, 2004, and then 2005 they 117 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. started traveling up again. Is there any particular reason? I believe that when there's a fire, you do an investigation to try to figure out what caused the fire. So based on your analysis of what caused the fires, do we know why they sort of went up in 2005? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yeah. It was combinations of causes, smoking, some were smoking, some were arson, some were electrical due to electrical causes. But, again, with the deaths, it's always families that didn't get an early warning or citizens that didn't get an early warning, a senior citizen that couldn't get out of the way and didn't have an early warning. I think in that year we lost a lot of senior citizens, and most of the seniors that we did lose were folks that didn't have folks coming over and changing the battery. One instance, I think it was on Keystone Street -- that might have been last year, but as an 118 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. example, Keystone Street, we had an elderly couple. We had smoke alarms, one on every level, even in the basement, but they were old, outdated and batteries hadn't been changed. Still had the same batteries in them from who knows how long. So those were the things that elevated the number. We believe that the only way to get it down is to continue to educate. Unfortunately, we use ten-year averages because we have spikes. This year with the deaths we had and the 11 15 deaths we had within a seven, eight-day 16 period, it was something that we 17 experienced across the country as fire 18 chiefs, and we actually met in Mobile, 19 Alabama to talk about the subject. It's 20 like, What are we doing wrong? What do 21 we have to do? Why so many fire deaths? 22 And we looked at it, we examined it, and these are the kinds of things that just have to happen in the community. That cold snap caused a lot of 119 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. folks to go to alternative heating, a lot of folks to do things that normally people wouldn't do in a structured environment or a healthy environment, complete healthy environment. The children, the mother, the pregnant mother, and the four children we lost on Walnut Street, you know, it's just not right thinking to take your children and to go and situate yourself in a one-room house that have no services, to steal or pilfer the electricity and set up just a hot water heater and that's the only thing there, using in the same room a refrigerator, a hot stove, a microwave oven, a heater. All of this in one room. So these are the kind of things that we run into, and those are things that we have to come together as a society, as system things, that have to be fixed, and if we don't fix those things, we're going to have people doing behaviors like that. So those are the kinds of 120 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. things that we saw as chiefs across the country what we have facing us. And impingement is on the fire service. We're the first responders. We respond to it all. So these are the things -- this is where we need help. This is where we need help.
And I think, too, that we are always interacting with the public. We probably need to help you with your community education. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
We need to make sure that people know about fire prevention. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, Council has been very helpful. They've been responsive to all of the packages that we sent out. I get smoke alarm requests back from your constituents and we fill them. I mean, we're doing the things that we have to do, I believe. 121 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
I think we do, too. I think it's just something that we have to just keep hammering at. I know when we did the heater giveaways, I was really reluctant to do it, but on the other hand, you want to help people have heat, but you want to make sure that they knew how to use the heater properly. And so, of course, you guys were there on the scene -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
-- educating everybody, almost one on one about how not to use the heater. Because I don't think people understand that they cannot put those in -- they have to put it in a wall socket and not into an extension cord. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Exactly.
Certainly. The Chair recognizes 122 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. Councilman Rizzo.
Commissioner, you just said something that interests me. You talked about our senior citizens. What about senior citizens that can't hear a smoke detector? Have you stepped forward to the visual? Because I know that many of the hard-wired systems have a strobe light now for people that can't hear. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
But I was also thinking that there was a Code change where multi-dwellings, apartment buildings like here in Center City, had to go to a hard-wired system. But first comment on the visual. Is there anything portable that people that have hearing issues you could help put a visual detector in there? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we can direct them to the services. We don't have that kind of service in the Fire Department. They do the strobe and 123 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. they also -- they have a vibration piece that attaches to their pillow or is used as a pillow. So those are the kinds of things that --
But we don't have that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. The Fire Department don't have that.
But let's say that your firefighters were doing what they do, which is great, putting those smoke detectors up. If they came across, let's say, an 85-year-old lady that obviously couldn't hear, how would they deal with that? Is there another step you go? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. We deal with like PCA, Philadelphia Corporation for the Aging, who help with services like that, and we direct them.
We just don't say, Well -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: We don't just leave them, no. We don't just leave 124 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. them.
And I just want to ask one more question. How many firefighters did you say you had? what? 14 COMMISSIONER AYERS: That was 15 our total number. When we get our 16 classes out, we'll have 2,339, which is 17 our authorized number. 18
Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER AYERS: 2,315. 20 I'm sorry. I included some civilians. 21
Okay. I 22 think that that is it. I had another 23 question, but I can't remember what it 24 was. Anyway, thank you. 25 Thank you, Madam President. 125 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good afternoon, sir.
As you know, I put a resolution in calling for mandatory carbon monoxide detectors in every household. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
You were sent the resolution and we briefly talked about it, and you're going to testify at the hearings, as well as Brian McBride from Local 22? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. 126 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
I commend your efforts to put a smoke detector in every home and increase awareness about their importance. Has any efforts been made to do the same for carbon monoxide detectors? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Actually, we did talk with Safety, Councilwoman Miller, about that to move forward and get them into homes. Currently, the only program that we have is a program we work with PGW on, where we come in and service a family that's been shut off and that person observes some dangerous situation or potentially dangerous situation, say a kerosene heater or if they see them using some other type of resource like electric heater, what we will do is, we come in and we would put smoke alarms or check to make sure that they had smoke alarms and also install one carbon monoxide detector. That was the program. We met with them last week, and we are going to partner to put together a 127 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. safety sheet to go into the bills that would encourage families to get a CO detector and encourage families to have smoke alarms and to educate them of the danger of using gas -- going around the gas meter and things like that and also how dangerous carbon monoxide is if they use a kerosene heater and warn them not to use other types of appliances that would generate carbon monoxide. So just a real warning. So we're in the process of writing that pamphlet right now.
Commissioner, when I last questioned you and you told me that we only had two percent women in the Fire Department, I've been sitting here asking myself why. Can you tell me if you have actively been trying to recruit women. COMMISSIONER AYERS: We have been not currently active, but during our recruitment, our last recruitment for 128 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. this current list that we are operating on now, we did actively recruit women. We went after female firefighters. We had several that did pass the test and got on the list, even some women that had just came out of the Service. Unfortunately, this is, I believe, the fourth recruit class. In a couple of recruit classes a couple of the women just didn't come in. They actually said they couldn't do it.
So how many do you have in the recruitment classes? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I will tell you exactly how many women that we have after this testimony. I'll get that back to your office this afternoon.
Give me just a little rough number. Would it be one? Would it be five? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Three, four. I believe it's three or four women. I don't have the exact number. 129 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
All right. Would you get back to me, please? I'd be curious to see that. Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam President. Commissioner, I want to go back to -- I'm not going to ask him that question, Budget Director, so relax. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I apologize. COMMISSIONER RIZZO: Not a problem. If she would have waited until I made my statement, she wouldn't have had to whisper in your ear. I'm going to not here publicly discuss these contractual issues. I'm going to have a private conversation with you off the record about that. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.
But I want to go back to the call-takers, because something has developed while we're having this proceeding that I might have 130 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. to comment on. Could you explain how the process works? I know in the Police Department we have call-takers and dispatchers. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
Do you have that same scenario in the Fire Department? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. We have a person that takes the call in, and then as the person that's taking the call in, they are entering it on a screen and the dispatcher is receiving it on the screen and dispatching it at the same time the call-taker is taking the call.
Okay. Earlier in the hearing I believe it was President Verna that discussed this issue with you. Do you have shortages of either call-takers or dispatchers right now? And I mean in positions, not that you're using overtime to cover that. Are you short of either dispatchers or -- can 131 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. a dispatcher be a call-taker and a call-taker be a dispatcher? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
Do you have shortages of those positions right now? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Are you saying that we have currently as we're sitting right now a seat that's unfilled?
No. In other words, the Fire Department, how many call-takers and dispatchers do you require? COMMISSIONER AYERS: It will be 11 on a shift.
So for four tours of duty? Is it four tours or three tours? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. It's three tours.
In other words, my question is, without dancing 132 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. around here, do you have enough dispatchers and call-takers employed by the Fire Department to put people 5 without overtime in those seats? 6 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Depending 7 on the platoon, we may have a platoon 8 that may be short one or two, but we are 9 also -- we have call-takers being trained 10 currently as well. 11
That's not a contractual issue, is it? So how many positions short are you today that are not employed by the Fire Department that you need to put 11 in each platoon at their task? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Right now I would have to look at the platoon configuration, but we have currently enough people to do that staffing.
Commissioner, I normally communicate fairly well. Eleven people per platoon. Do you have 11 people or do you have more than 11 for back-up? How many positions 133 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. do you have that are not filled that are call-takers or dispatchers? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I will have to get back to you with that so that I can give you an exact answer how many per platoon we may be short.
Overall how many are you short? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I will actually -- well, we had 49 in '06 and we actually have 54 that's in our billet right now.
Fifty-four? COMMISSIONER AYERS: So we're budgeted for 54. It got cut back to 52. We had 49 last year.
Well, how many do you have right now? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Again, I'll have to let you know. I know that we are training.
But you are short positions for the call-taker or dispatcher? 134 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I know we're short because we're training, but how many, I can't say.
When they're not in the seat training, they're not doing the job, or are they actually in training in the seat? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Oh, no. 10 No. They don't take the seat until they're trained.
How many do you have in training at the present time, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I believe the class is six.
Six in training. So your figures calculate... 135 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
The reason I'm asking that question is that I recently had an experience where I thought it was technology failure -- you're going to get back to us with those numbers, correct -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
-- to the Chair? I recently thought it was technology, but now I'm starting to think that maybe it wasn't. I called 9-1-1 to report an accident that needed medical services. The dispatcher at Police radio does what they do to patch the call through, 9-1-1 to the Fire Department. It just rang and rang and rang. So finally the call-taker at 9-1-1 said, Something is not right here, let me try this again, and disconnected, reconnected. It took about four or five rings for Fire Rescue to answer the phone. I kind of recollect the days when that was kind of like the first ring 136 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. answer. Is that your goal, like first or second ring to answer that call that's handed off to you? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yeah, I'm sure it is. There's seconds. We operate on seconds, minutes and national averages. So I'm sure that there is a time, a set time, when that phone should be answered.
So, in other words, a caller needing to report a fire or a medical emergency, they call 9-1-1 and the call is handed off and the dispatcher from Police stays on the line, from what I understand -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct.
-- to capture that information. If there's a fire or a medical emergency, since the Police are the ones that move the call to the Fire Department, do they dispatch automatically to a report of a house fire or a medical emergency? Is it automatic 137 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. that since the Police are the first agency to get the call, do they capture the information and send a patrol car to that location, fire or medical emergency? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Usually the police car -- they'll give this information and there will be a police car that will respond as well. So they'll be responding, Fire will be responding.
So it's automatic that if someone calls that Mr. Jones is on the ground, we think he's had a heart attack -- I'm getting some nods in the back that that's not the case. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, do Police dispatch? Police dispatch many times on emergencies. When they get it, they're the call-taker, the original call-taker. They'll run a car on it if there's a car available. They're not there to deliver the intervention. They're there because they're just the 138 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. police.
But my point is -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: With traffic and --
-- is it a policy -- I guess that's a better way to put it -- is it a policy that the Police automatically when they receive a call, since their 9-1-1 call-taker is on the line, that they gather the information that's given to the Fire Department and they dispatch a police car to do what you just described, assist for -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: I can't tell you what the Police policy is.
I just wanted to know. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Our policy is that we go.
But why did I experience five, six rings before they picked up at your end? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I couldn't 139 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. tell you.
But that's not the norm, correct? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I don't think that that's normal. It would have to be that the system is like absolutely swamped.
How many people are there to answer those calls? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We have 11 people on duty and they split up between dispatch and call-taking.
Okay. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I can give you a complete rundown on all of it for you.
Okay. So you are short dispatchers and you'll give us the exact number of what that is, and you have six in training, which should be hitting the room within the next reasonable period of time? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
When? 140 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER AYERS: I'm not sure. I'll have that information for you.
You're welcome. Commissioner, when you forward to my attention the information that I was asking about the fire women, would you also provide me with information as to how many firefighters are women in other large cities? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Oh, okay. A survey?
I would like to do that comparison. Do you have a problem with that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Oh, no. 22
Dianne Reed, Budget Director. 141 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
Okay. No. I was just discussing with the Commissioner before that there are probably more like women all together, and he was saying 8 the three or four number is probably just 9 the number in the classes right now. I 10 wasn't sure if that was clear to you. 11
I 12 think that's what he indicated. He said 13 there were two percent and I believe he 14 said there were three percent being 15 trained at this time. So I would still 16 like that information, if you don't mind. 17 Are there any other questions 18 from members of the Committee? 19 (No response.) 20
Commissioner, I want to thank you and the Department for doing such a magnificent job. Thank you so much, and I'll expect that information to be forthcoming in the next week or so. 142 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, ma'am.
Thank you. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you, Councilwoman.
You're welcome. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Council President and to all of the Councilmembers, thank you.
You're welcome. MR. McPHERSON: The next department is the Philadelphia Prisons.
Thank you. You have been extremely patient, and we thank you for that. Commissioner, your testimony is rather lengthy. COMMISSIONER KING: Yes.
If you could abbreviate it, we will give a copy of your testimony to the stenographer and it will be transcribed 143 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. in full. COMMISSIONER KING: Okay.
So I think, as I said, I'm sure you're getting a little hungry, and apparently some of my colleagues have already reached that point. So if you don't mind, I would appreciate your abbreviating. COMMISSIONER KING: I will just read into the record the introductory paragraph. How is that?
No. 14 I think you have to read a little bit more than that. COMMISSIONER KING: President Verna and members of City Council, I am Leon King, Commissioner of the Philadelphia Prison System. To my right is Deputy Commissioner Hammond. He's our Deputy Commissioner for Restorative and Transitional Services. And to my right is Mr. Szymanski, our Fiscal Officer. At the PPS, our greatest challenge is to provide cost-effective 144 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. services for the taxpayers of the City of Philadelphia while providing a safe, secure and humane correctional environment that adequately detains persons accused or convicted of illegal acts. In FY07, we are meeting the challenge to provide these services to an inmate population that averaged 8,780 for the fiscal year to date and exceeded 8,900 at times during the months of September and October of 2006. The $218 million Operating Budget request for FY08 is 11.5 million more than our FY07 estimated obligation level. The FY08 General Fund Class 100 request of 117 million is expected to fund 2,400 full-time positions. The General Fund Class 200 request of 95 million provides for increased costs of contracted inmate housing and for contracted maintenance services at the Curran-Fromhold Correctional Facility and the Riverside Correctional Facility. The requested funding levels for Classes 300 145 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. and 400 remain the same as the FY07 estimated obligation level. Inmate work payments, Class 500, remain the same as the estimated obligations for FY07. And you'll see in the testimony I've presented there are a number of initiatives going on in various areas at the Prison to more effectively run the Prison System and deal with the challenges that we face. That concludes my introductory remarks and I'm ready to take questions.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Commissioner, you mention in your testimony various initiatives to address the growth rate of the prison population. Can you tell us what AXIOM stands for? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, actually, it doesn't stand for anything. The staff at the Prison thought that we had too many acronyms -- is that the word -- so it's actually just a word, and 146 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. I can't remember what it means necessarily, but it reflects the fact that this is a system where you go to get information to answer questions. So AXIOM -- one of the challenges we face in trying to manage the Prison System is that we have an outdated computer system, number one, and there are a lot of things that we track that we do by paper. So AXIOM, though, is mainly, in its first stages, to address the population problem. So when someone says, for example, I think it would be a good idea to address people who have $500 worth of bail at the prison, maybe we can do something else with them, well, we have no way of telling you real quick how many people that is, where they're from, et cetera. So AXIOM is the type of thing that's going to allow us to analyze the population so we can come up with better alternatives to reduce things, and then we'll move it on to others. 147 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
So in a sense, you told us what it is. COMMISSIONER KING: Excuse me?
I said in a sense, you have told us what it stands for. COMMISSIONER KING: Okay.
Can you tell us the number of sentenced inmates that are currently at your facility? COMMISSIONER KING: I can't tell you that number specifically. It's one of the reasons we need AXIOM, but generally speaking, 30 to 40 percent of the inmates at the Prison are sentenced.
Okay. And I guess you cannot tell us the number of detainees you have? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, it's approximately 60 percent. So if you take our population today of 8,700, what's 60 percent of that? Three or four thousand inmates. The vast majority of them are 148 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. pretrial.
Can you tell us -- I guess you're not going to be able to answer this unless you have the computers -- what is the number of inmates that are serving state time but the judge has ordered they serve their time in the county prison? COMMISSIONER KING: I believe that number is between 200 and 300 inmates, something like that. And we have started something with the District Attorney's Office to try and address that. I know they filed a petition with Judge Keogh to try and get those inmates out of our custody and into state custody. Their initial filing was successful. I think they wanted to do a test filing and I think we got rid of 15 to 20 inmates. So now the next step is for them to sort of widen that and try and get rid of some more of those state-sentenced inmates.
What 149 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. does this cost the City and do we get reimbursed by the state for these inmates? COMMISSIONER KING: No, we don't get reimbursed by the state. I can get -- Mr. Szymanski can get you that number. I'm not sure we have it right here. He's saying if you use the per diem $88 a day and multiply that out. But we'll do it for you and get you that number.
That would be fine. COMMISSIONER KING: But you have to understand that the judges are the ones who sentence them to these -- if they have a sentence of two years or more or up to five, the judge has the option of making them serve the state time in the county prison. So the judge says, Okay, you got a state sentence, but you're serving it in the county. That's how it works. 150 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
On of your testimony, you mention expanded capacity. You state that the PPS has created temporary and emergency housing to meet short-term needs and has aggressively pursued contracted space to meet the anticipated needs of further growth. What are the locations of the temporary and emergency housing locations? COMMISSIONER KING: All of the jails have temporary and emergency housing locations. I mean, the way it has worked traditionally with the prisons -- for example, we take House of Corrections, the oldest facility. It's built to house a certain number of inmates, and then we add temporary and emergency areas in places that weren't originally designed for inmates and we put showers, toilets and beds in those areas. So all the jails, I believe, 151 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. except PICC, have temporary and emergency areas, and then there's the contracted space.
So we haven't contracted space other than, I guess, space that are existing Prison facilities. COMMISSIONER KING: No. We also have -- I guess you would term that temporary emergency beds in Monmouth County.
Where? COMMISSIONER KING: Monmouth County, New Jersey. I believe we have around 135 inmates in Monmouth County now. We just actually issued a notice to proceed today to house inmates in Lehigh County in Pennsylvania. We're getting ready to send some females up there. I think it's up to 100 beds that we're going to have there. We entered into a contract with CEC. I think it's Community Education 152 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. Centers at D and Erie. Is that where it is? Yes. And they're going to build us 200 beds that we hope to occupy in December. We just opened a new work release facility at 10th and Lehigh in the old YMCA building that we're going to house 110 people, and we continue to look in other places to house more inmates.
At what point in time does it become more economical to build a new facility? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, what point in time? You always have to consider building new facilities when you have aging facilities like the House of Correction and the Detention Center. So that's always got to be in the plan, building new prisons, certainly to replace current capacity. We have a particular situation right now with the juvenile inmates where the Administration is asking PICA for money to build a direct-file juvenile 153 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. facility at the jail, because we have inmates, some of them triple-celled, the direct file, the kids, in the House of Correction. So that's a place to do it. But you have to be strategic in those sorts of places, because what I've been telling people is, the inmate population increases three to four percent a year basically, and if you wanted to keep up with the growth without any new initiatives by anybody who wants to hire a thousand police or 2,000 police, it's $58 million it cost us to build the last facility, RCF, for 768 beds and it cost us $20 million to run that facility. So if you do the math, every two and a half years we'd have to be spending $58 million to build a new jail to keep up with the inmate population. So I guess in answer to your question, you have to be strategic and you have to replace old, aging facilities. When the proper situation 154 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. arises, you build a new facility, but you can't have it be the be-all-and-end-all of dealing with inmates, because it's just, I think -- I was reading a newspaper from 1952 that had to do with the Prison, and the Superintendent at the time, Mr. Hendricks, he was talking about over-population and keeping up with the inmates. So it's a never-ending cycle, and sometimes it's appropriate. But the last community meeting I went to out in Cobbs Creek, I asked them all to raise their hand and tell me whether or not they would enjoy to have a prison next to their house, around the corner, near their kids, near their grandmother. Nobody wanted a prison anywhere. So even if I wanted to build one, Councilwoman Blackwell, I'm not sure where everyone would let us put it.
You spoke about 60 percent of detainees are in your facility. COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. 155 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
How long does it take before a detainee goes to trial? COMMISSIONER KING: That I cannot tell you off the top of my head. That is another reason we need the AXIOM system. We do know that the vast majority of those people get out -- and I don't remember the percentage -- in two or three weeks once they pay their bail. Because what happens a lot of the times is, they get arrested. They have a bail amount. They go to their first preliminary hearing. No one is ready for the hearing. They continue it. They'll go to the second hearing. No one is ready for the hearing. They go to the third hearing and the judge says, Oh, we gave you a $15,000 bail the first time. That was too much. It's 5,000. Then they get released. In the meantime, the City is on the tab at $88 a day to house these people. Then for those who aren't in 156 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. custody, the time it takes them to go to trial is something the prisons would like to know so that we can forward that on to the people in the judiciary, because our impression is that there are a lot of unnecessary continuances and other things that cause inmates to be in the -- the pretrial population to be there longer when they could expedite things and either find people not guilty, send them to the state as opposed to just sitting there.
How often do you and perhaps the District Attorney, the Police Commissioner, the Voluntary Defenders Office, whoever is involved in the system, how frequently do you meet and discuss issues such as we're talking about presently? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, we've been meeting and discussing them, I would say, for six years through the Criminal Justice Coordinating Committee. Usually we try to meet in the beginning every 157 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. month. Then it was bimonthly. We just met, a subcommittee of that group, last Thursday, and we have another meeting this week, and we discuss these things. The challenge is -- the Solicitor heads that committee. The challenge is, you have the DA, who is an independent elected official, has a particular view of something. The judges are 150 elected officials, who all have their own view of doing things. So there's a challenge there. Everybody is aware of these issues. We had a study done through Dr. Goldkamp at Temple and there's information there, so you can look and you can see that obviously there are issues with processing cases and things of that nature. So we're all aware of what the issues are and they're there. The challenge is trying to get everybody coordinated so someone will take a stand. Judge Fitzgerald did that back last year on September 11th when he said 158 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. there's a -- I don't know if he would call it a backlog, but what I perceive to be a backlog in criminal cases in the Court of Common Pleas. He said, This is obviously contributing to the overcrowding, let's do something about it. So now they've expedited and they've made sure the courts are open from 9:00 to 5:00 as opposed to some other hour and they're getting rid of more cases. Our challenge at the Prison is, we can't tell yet whether the cases they're getting rid of are people who were in custody or people who weren't, and that's another reason that we want to have the AXIOM system. And the proof will be in the pudding. If we get to July or August and the Prison census is still at 86 or 87, then maybe I'll be able to say what Judge Fitzgerald did worked. Right now I can't say that, because we've been very lucky --
When do you anticipate this system to be in 159 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. operation? COMMISSIONER KING: In the next six to eight weeks, we're going to be able to start doing inquiries into the AXIOM system. We've been working on it a while.
All right. I only have, if you don't mind, another question or two and then I know my colleagues would like to be recognized. On of your testimony, you mention correctional healthcare. You mention that approximately 32,000 individuals will be admitted to the PPS during FY08. I have to assume that the majority of these are detainees. COMMISSIONER KING: Yes.
Is the PPS eligible for any reimbursement for detainees' healthcare costs? COMMISSIONER KING: As it stands right now, we don't get any reimbursement from anybody for inmate 160 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. healthcare costs. There was an initiative and I think that's still ongoing with the Department of Public Welfare to try and get some reimbursement for those inmates who on the outside would be eligible for those source of things, and we've had a stalemate, I guess, for the past however long on that issue. Also, we are trying to see whether we can reorganize our pharmacy services, for example, so we can qualify as a -- I think it's called a healthcare site, that we can get pricing that is commensurate with what you would get if you were the federal government or the state. So we have those two sorts of things, but as it stands generally, the law, as I understand it, is if you're on SSI or you're Medicaid and you get arrested and you're a pretrial detainee, you get your benefits cut off. And it's a challenge as well when they get 161 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. released. For example, if they're a mental health patient and before they had the state or somebody paying for their medication and they get out, there's a while before they're able to get reconnected. So we try to give them discharge meds, but if they don't get reconnected, they're not on their medication, they decompensate, they commit a crime, they come back.
Is this governed at the state or federal level? COMMISSIONER KING: Excuse me?
Is this governed by the state or federal level? COMMISSIONER KING: The state and the federal government.
And are we lobbying for changes? COMMISSIONER KING: As I understand, we are and have been in negotiations, conversations with the 162 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. state Department of Welfare on this issue. I couldn't tell you right now -- I don't think Ms. Steiker is here -- where we are on that.
Because this gets to be very costly, I'm sure. COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. It's just one of those things and it's -- unfortunately, and I don't know where it started, but in this country, I think our position a lot of times is, you got arrested, take away your benefits, take away your voting rights, don't let you go to college, don't let you do anything. And we figure we're winning that way and we really aren't.
Commissioner, thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. 163 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER KING: Good afternoon.
We have heard in the past here in Council from correction officers and certainly we've heard from former and some current inmates about some of the concerns up in the prisons, particularly with the increase in violence, both inmates versus inmates and correctional officers and inmates. First of all, would you consider that an accurate statement? Have those incidents increased, say, in the last couple of years? COMMISSIONER KING: If you look at those types of incidents beginning like in the year 2000 and you get to this date, yes, they have increased, and they have increased because the inmate population has increased. There has not been, because we're able to track this, there hasn't been any significant increase over a period of time of violence at the prisons. There just 164 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. hasn't.
There has not, you said? COMMISSIONER KING: No. I know that is the perception of some of the staff members at the Prison, but it's just not the case. I mean, there have been -- every once in a while, there's an uptick in something, but if you look at the numbers overall, that's not the case. And it's not to say we don't take it seriously. Somebody I was talking to yesterday said, Oh, there's a lot of stabbings at PICC. I said, Well, that's not true. One stabbing is too many, but, you know...
Obviously not that I question your number, but could you provide those numbers to the President of the inmates? COMMISSIONER KING: Sure.
I appreciate that. 165 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. Along those same lines, there's some questions raised about the staffing or lack of same up there, particularly I believe there were some layoffs in '05; is that correct? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes.
Let me just throw a couple things. Social workers, do they have a bigger caseload than they did before? COMMISSIONER KING: Absolutely. When the population goes up -- our policy has been for every hundred inmates, you're supposed to have a social worker, and I think we've done pretty well over the years keeping up with that. Right now we don't have that ratio. We have some authorization to hire more social workers. Right now we're having a little trouble getting them through the pipeline, so we're reevaluating how we do that, and we want to hire some -- instead of hiring straight off the Social Worker II list, we want to hire entry-level 166 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. social worker folks, sort of groom them to work at the prisons, and we've been told by Personnel that we'll have a better way of going there. And, yes, I think as was reflected when the Chief of Staff testified, all of us departments have needs that we think need to be met, but there hasn't been the money. There's no money there to take us where we need to be. But the social workers, there are some of them that have a lot of cases, and it's a challenge.
Do you know the average? I know you said one per hundred inmates. Do you know what they average, say? COMMISSIONER KING: It depends, and I'll let Deputy Commissioner Hammond handle it if I miss anything. It depends on what type of social worker you are. If you're on an Options Unit, for example, you probably got a caseload that's manageable and reasonable. If you're a social worker at the Detention 167 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. Center, based on the numbers the last time I saw them, you're going to have more of a challenge. And we have some social workers there that, yeah, have a caseload of 150 or 200 people. If you're a social worker in the Intake area at CFCF, that is a constant, constant flow and you have an increased caseload. So it's true that we're not where we would like to be, but, again, we have these budget challenges. There's only so much money to go around and we're trying to keep up as best as we can.
Again, along those same lines, have there been any increase or ability to increase any programs like, say, education programs or anything like that there, or we're running into the same thing because of the increase in inmates? COMMISSIONER KING: We've had some new initiatives in the four years since I've been there. We've had the Jobs Project that I think is probably 168 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. going to end at the end of this fiscal year that was pretty successful that we funded out of some settlement money. I think we have increased maybe by two the Options Units that we have at the Prison. We have the Pennypack School, which is an arm of the School District, and we have a great principal, who he just sent me a letter last week about all the great things that he's been doing to increase people to get into GED and things of that nature. And I think we're doing pretty well with the direct-file juveniles. Now, I'm not saying -- as I said, everybody in the City would like to do more. I think we're doing pretty well with what has been divided up. But there have been some new things, and we continue in our getting creative, and we want to have a better relationship with the community. So, for example, we started a partnership with Mothers in Charge -- and I don't think that's costing the City any money -- where they 169 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. come in and they're mentoring and working with the direct-file juveniles. We have another, the Frankford Redirection Project up in Frankford, where we went out and said, We need you to help. They went out and formed their own non-profit corporation. They came in. They have mentors for inmates. They have support services when they leave. So we're constantly working with volunteers and others to supplement where there isn't the money right now for programming.
One of the other things we heard is particularly with recreational time that because of more inmates, that there's less time, and that adds to the friction up there. Would you say that's an accurate statement? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, I would say that it makes it more challenging, yes. I mean, you talked about the layoffs. When we made the 170 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. layoffs, we didn't lay off any correctional officers back in 2005. We didn't lay off any correctional officers. We didn't lay off any social workers. I think we laid off a psychologist, three recreation leaders and I think the rest of them were clerical people. So we did pretty good with the layoffs. But it creates a challenge for us when you don't have the recreation leaders or whatever. You have to depend on the COs or whoever to organize recreation. So it makes it more challenging. And, of course, you want inmates to recreate, because the more they're doing something else, the less time they have to spend on doing things they shouldn't.
How about anger management? COMMISSIONER KING: We do that for inmates. They get that in Options. They get that in the Jobs Project. And I know we also have partnerships with 171 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. Temple and Drexel and I think Penn, that they come in and work with the inmates, and anger management is one of the regular programming things, anger management, parenting skills, all those sorts of things that we teach.
Okay. Thanks. I know you mentioned dietary issues in your healthcare. Is that something that you feel has improved? Is there a dietician or do you have dieticians? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. We have a dietician on staff. I believe it's with Aramark. Because when you go around and talk to the inmates, every once in a while I get a complaint about the food. Prison food has a certain reputation, and it doesn't necessarily look like what you might get at Ruth's Chris or somewhere, but --
I don't think that's to be expected. 172 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER KING: Right. But we know what's in the food, and it has all the things that you need to be a happy, healthy individual. And we did go recently to the heart-healthy diet, because we had a lot of different people who had dietary requirements, if you're diabetic or you have a heart problem. So it's a low-sodium, very healthy meal.
I might have to try that myself. COMMISSIONER KING: Okay.
Not at your facility. You were talking, I think, about the juvenile situation. Is my understanding that there are juvenile female offenders up there? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes.
And how are they housed vis-a-vis the adults? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, they're housed in the adult female facility. We typically only have three 173 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. or four, something like that, there. They're housed. They're locked in their cells and they're not allowed to be out when the adults are out. And we have specialized programming for them, because they have to go to school, I think, until they're 21. So the Pennypack School has special services that deal with just the juveniles. And Social Services also has a special focus on them. Now, we don't like that. We don't like the fact that the male juveniles are in an adult facility either, and that's why we want to get some money from PICA to take one of the buildings that we already have up on the Prison campus and make it a facility for our juveniles.
Okay. And how long has that been going on where -- has that been for quite a while, that the juveniles have been in there? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. I've been with the prisons for -- I don't 174 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. remember when it started. It's not an old thing, but it's not a new thing. It's been there a while. They changed the law and said, Now you commit X, Y and Z crime, you're automatically an adult and it's on your attorney to prove to the Court that you should be remanded to the Youth Study Center. So that's why we have this situation, which sometimes manifests itself with 11- and 12-year-old people being up at the Prison, which is kind of --
Because I remember that incident years ago where a young girl killed somebody in South Philly. COMMISSIONER KING: Miriam White. She's our youngest, 11. She was 11 years old.
I mean, I understand that may have been a real egregious case, but it doesn't seem like it serves anybody's purpose to have them 175 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. in an adult facility. COMMISSIONER KING: No. We went back and forth with her attorneys and whatnot, because I was general counsel back then, and I think we got her over to the custody of the Department of Human Services and we sent her to Texas, and I think she's still in Texas.
Is that where she is? Okay. Speaking of facilities, by the way, I know Councilwoman Krajewski has raised this issue before. What's the situation with Holmesburg Prison? Where does that stand now, if you can say? COMMISSIONER KING: Holmesburg Prison stands on Torresdale Avenue.
What is the future of Holmesburg Prison? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, right now, last summer because of the situation that was going on, we rehabbed the gymnasium, which is like -- it's like detached from the rest of the Prison 176 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. where we house 80 intake inmates. The gym has been closed now for four weeks -- about six weeks because the population has been down and we haven't had to use it. When the population goes back up, which I'm assuming that it will, there will probably come some point in the spring or the summer we'll have to open the gym up again for those 80 people. There was some work done on another part of the jail early on that caused Councilwoman Krajewski some concern, consternation and annoyance where we were thinking about putting more beds into Holmesburg to meet the population demands, but right now, since the Councilwoman voiced her concern, as it were, no work has gone on there. So right now the future plan is to use the gym, and the other part of it is an issue beyond.
No other expansion planned, to your knowledge? Is that fair to say? 177 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER KING: Not at this moment.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo for a point of information.
Thank you. Commissioner, I can understand Councilwoman Krajewski's concern about the increase in the population or the use for housing inmates at that location because of the concerns from the community, but I have a question. Have we talked to the community, Council Lady Krajewski to see if there's any other appropriate use for the facility? I had an inquiry from the Police Department that it's a shame we have a space there that obviously could be utilized for something that's acceptable to the Councilperson and the community. Has there been any look at utilizing it for something that would 178 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. save the taxpayers of this City money since we're already using it and paying for the facility? COMMISSIONER KING: My conversations and visits with the community, my sense was what they want there is a park. They would like us to demolish the buildings on the inside and they would like to have a park there. That's my read. I would imagine the Public Property Commissioner would know more about that particular issue since it's her area, but that was my read from the community. We also have a barricade shop there where we make all the barricades for the Police Department. That's located there.
Well, they'll keep you real busy with that, because they put them out, use them once and the traffic takes care of recycling. COMMISSIONER KING: Oh, I didn't know that. 179 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
But there must be something that the community would say, other than, let's say, the extreme of making it a park. How usable is it for office space or whatever? COMMISSIONER KING: No. 8 Holmesburg, we use the administration building in the front for our training academy. In the gatehouse right when you walk in, the cert team is there and there's a gym for the cert team, and then we have the barricade shop and the gym where the inmates are. The rest of it, when we started doing the work on what we call Soup Alley, I mean, it's no 17 condition. You would have to put lots of money in there to get rid of the lead, the asbestos, the pigeons, the things the pigeons leave behind.
Sounds like it will make a nice park. COMMISSIONER KING: Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. 180 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
I just have one more, but if you would like to go --
I'm sorry. I didn't realize that was just a point of information.
That's okay. I know I'm going a little long, but I just have one more question, if I could. On the private building at the 10th and Lehigh site you were talking about, those workers there will all be private individuals? That's not City employees, right? COMMISSIONER KING: Correct. 181 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
Okay. That's different, because before weren't there some places rented but there were City employees that worked there? COMMISSIONER KING: Well, we have two other sites, CEC at 17th and Cambria that is -- the facility is rented from and provided by Liberty Management, and City employees work there. 600 University is the same way. We lease that from Liberty Management, and City employees work there. In the past, we've had, for example, Delaware County. That was a contract with Delaware County. Their people worked there. In the beginning, it was county employees and then it was employees of the private company that took over the prison. At 10th and Lehigh, Liberty Management leases the building and they provide the employees. Our employees have oversight of what goes on there. And, for example, our District Council 47 people have some supervisory 182 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. responsibility for the programming and all of that, but it is private employees.
What was the reason for the change? COMMISSIONER KING: It wasn't as though we sat down and said, We need to change this. The issue was we needed bed space and we needed bed space quickly and we had to live within a budget. So we took --
So it was budgetary related? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. We put a notice on the -- we have to do that new reporting thing for contracts. People came back with bids, and it's cheaper to do it this way.
Do you have figures as far as the breakdown of how it's less expensive there? COMMISSIONER KING: I can get you the numbers. I believe at 10th and Lehigh the numbers are like $66 a day or $62 a day per inmate as opposed to the 183 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. $88 per day it costs on State Road.
Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I am very glad to know where Holmesburg is located, Commissioner. And certainly we want to applaud the healthcare initiatives you mentioned, our early examinations. That's so important, even in our work with homeless people. The early exams are so important and the work with blood sugar, with diabetes and certainly with HIV and AIDS and the universal diet. I also always applaud you for having hiring out here on the sidewalk when you recruit and making applications available for those in the community who 184 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. would like to be corrections officers. Do you have a high turnover? COMMISSIONER KING: I don't know -- I don't think of whether we have a high turnover, but we do have to 7 people, I think, a month that leave. So 8 one of the -- sometimes they go to the 9 Sheriff, sometimes the Police, sometimes 10 they go to Florida. 11
12 They're always begging to go to the 13 Sheriff. COMMISSIONER KING: But we've gotten permission from the Personnel Director to go to a full-time recruiting and testing procedure now, because it's become problematic for us. So we're going to be recruiting now all the time for social workers, COs, maintenance people, everybody. So when that's ready to go, we'll be letting all the Councilpeople know, because we want to speed up the processing of applicants.
Thank 185 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. you for the job that you're doing, and I notice they have -- we have a reentry facility in my area, and we try to do our part. Of course, now, Madam President, in addition to Youth Study Center, they want to give me Family Court, too. So they have decided that we get it all. And I'm okay, as long as our people will accept it. We get a little kickback. It's always not what you do, but how you do it. But we certainly are committed to doing our part to certainly help in this area. Thank you. COMMISSIONER KING: Thank you.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Savage.
Good afternoon, Commissioner. 186 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER KING: Good afternoon.
You mentioned that there are currently 7,516 permanent beds, but the average population is 8,780 inmates. What happens to the excess? COMMISSIONER KING: The permanent beds are the beds that were originally designed for the facilities that are under our control. The excess people go into those temporary and emergency beds that I told you about that are spread out through the various facilities or are contracted in Monmouth County or Lehigh County or CEC or 600 University or the various other places.
How does the cost per day of housing a prisoner compare to the cost per day of other types of monitoring, either electronic or through the Probation and Parole Department? COMMISSIONER KING: They're all 187 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. cheaper than what we do. As I understand it, electronic monitoring -- and maybe the Budget Director can correct me -- it's $15, $18 a day to monitor someone on an electronic monitor. Most of the other -- if you think about alternatives to incarceration, most of them are -- this is the most expensive way to do it, as far as I'm concerned.
Commissioner, I just have one more question. Looking at your budget, the Prison health services will be costing approximately $44,000,591, and I think that includes the admissions, I assume, the admission examinations. I still cannot understand why we are not lobbying the state and federal government for some of this money. Do you know if the Administration is doing that? COMMISSIONER KING: As I understand it, we are. I don't know -- 188 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. she doesn't know, but as I -- the Budget Director tells me that they're going to be meeting with the state about this imminently and that the Governor does have his new healthcare plan that he's trying to get so that everybody has healthcare coverage. I mean, I hear you and I agree that it's kind of ridiculous --
That we should be paying. COMMISSIONER KING: -- that the City should be paying, especially when a lot of these folks, they come in, we give them a medical exam, they leave after a week and then they go home and then, you know...
And I assume that even if they have medical care like Keystone, since they are not being examined, for instance, by a doctor who is under the Keystone plan, then we pay for it. COMMISSIONER KING: Well, I 189 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. mean, that, again, is -- they're going to be meeting with the state on that, and that's something -- in the last two months, we've hired a new Director for our medical and mental health services, someone who comes from the state, who worked with Blue Cross and Blue Shield and Pennsylvania Hospital and knows these things. One of the things we're doing is hiring -- we're going to be entering into negotiations with two of those Blue Cross and somebody else who submitted proposals to deal with utilization management and getting good rates at hospitals, and I'm sure that's one of the things that he could sort of discuss as to whether or not we could get reimbursed, especially if there are people who get arrested who have private coverage. And I don't know if there's specific rules on that, but --
Well, I mean, we've been discussing this for years. COMMISSIONER KING: You're 190 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. absolutely correct.
And I think that we've got to get very serious about it and start, as I said, lobbying, and I think that the state and the federal government have to put in their fair share in this. COMMISSIONER KING: If you --
We could be doing a lot more with $44 million. COMMISSIONER KING: I agree with you, and if you think about prisons in general, the state and the federal government should be doing a lot more, because it's the state, for example, that says, If you're arrested for X, you should go to county prison for XYZ, and they never bother to appropriate any money for me or any of the other county jails in this Commonwealth to build more space or to have more programs. They think it's a bottomless pit that you just throw prisoners into and don't provide us 191 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. with the resources as a result of their dictates that they come down with.
Commissioner, I thank you. I think you're doing a great job. And, Ms. Reed, I am asking you please to follow through with the Administration also with this issue about the medical. I think that something has to be done. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam President. Just one last question, Commissioner, sort of a follow-up on the Liberty Management facility at Lehigh Avenue. Are they under the same mandate to have the basic services that are provided at the Prison, the kind of stuff we talked about before, the anger management, the recreation, that kind of thing? 192 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. COMMISSIONER KING: They are required to have programming there. I can call Ms. Duzinski up here. She can tell you what specifically it is, yes, but they're required to have programming there as well.
Is there a contract or something you could send to the Council President, kind of show what they have to provide, the cost of it, that kind of thing? COMMISSIONER KING: Yes.
Okay. I appreciate if that could be provided. Thank you, Commissioner.
I'm sorry. We're just trying to figure out a way here that we could deal with this medical issue, and Mr. McPherson is saying if the detainees particularly were under public assistance, isn't there a strong possibility that we could be reimbursed? COMMISSIONER KING: That's the 193 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. whole conversation that has been going on with the state, and as I understand it, it's a matter of the state's interpretation of federal regulations. That's what I remember, but I will make sure that I talk to Ms. Steiker again and I'll actually have Dr. Herdman, our Director of Behavioral and Medical, look into this and see -- reevaluate it and make sure that I pass it along.
Can you get back to us with what the issues are, please? COMMISSIONER KING: Sure.
Thank you. I think it's time that we got this rolling. Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam President. Commissioner, if you could please give a report on an issue that's been, I think, important to both of us. And, as you know, I had a conversation 194 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. with the Administration, and they appeared interested in what I think -- and I think you believe -- is a worthy effort to put some of the inmates that are already processed for the work release program to work in Fairmount Park and possibly some other facilities. I know I spoke with the Chief of Staff, and she indicated that she was going to try to figure out a way to find the money in the budget to employ. If you could explain -- sometimes we in this government assume that everybody listening here understands what we're talking about. So if you could explain the program and explain the concept of what we're trying to accomplish. COMMISSIONER KING: Well, the program is one that came about as a suggestion of Councilman Rizzo wherein the Fairmount Park and the Prison System would cooperate to provide jobs for some of the people in our work release program 195 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. who are in work release but nevertheless didn't have any employment. So we sat down and came up with a plan where Fairmount Park would train and employ some of our inmates in an effort to, one, help with their backlog in the park and, two, make the inmates employment ready so that when they left the custody and control of the Philadelphia Prisons, we would be able to get them jobs doing that sort of thing for a private company. So we have the program ready to go. I know the last go-around, we just had to tweak it to make sure that everybody in the City was on the same page, that the plan was to encourage people who contract with the City to hire these ex-offenders. So we're ready to go on that. I'm just waiting word for the money to come and we're up and running. I think it's a really, really good idea, and I know from my tours around the 600 University, Councilman, that the inmates heard about this long 196 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. ago and there are people down there ready to sign up for it. So I think we're imminently ready to go.
Well, it's good, because fortunately the unions have bought in and indicated that this is a good way to train people, and it is a training program. I've already talked to a couple of those subcontractors that are very interested in reviewing some of the performances of these inmates that are programmed for work release to see if when they leave incarceration if they could employ them. So there's been a very positive program there. And my colleague, Councilman Goode, has legislation that will give employers a tax credit of, I believe it's, $5,000. So that is a significant incentive. The sad part of the situation is that even though you've employed many of the inmates, that there is a population there that when you did mention it -- but I think it's 197 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. significant. I believe it's over 50, maybe 80 men and women that could leave the facility in the morning and come back in the evening if they only had a job. And that's why the Fairmount Park Commission is waiting to take the first six once the funding is approved to pay them a minimum wage. And I don't mean a minimum wage based on the minimum wage, but I think it's eight to ten dollars an hour. And also the Zoo is looking at employing some of these folks, because there's a tremendous amount of maintenance work that's needed. They have a backlog also, so they are interested, because your folks are available hours, whatever shift is 19 available, to come work. And the sad 20 part, again, is the fact that we have 21 this population that has gone through the 22 process that has been approved to work in 23 that type of an environment, but there's 24 no opportunity. So I think we as a government 198 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. need to create that environment and make these jobs available. And I commend the unions for their support. This isn't perceived as taking anyone's job away. I think the program is a good one. And I don't know if the Budget Director knows if there's been any money. We're talking about just a hundred thousand dollars, I believe, to get the program rolling. And I don't think we need the whole hundred thousand dollars right out of the gate either to get the project going. And you said something to me that made me really want to stick with this and not give up on it, that the inmates that come back are the ones that don't have a job. COMMISSIONER KING: Most of the time, yes. That's a big problem.
And if we can have them leave the jail with a few bucks in their pocket and some possibilities of employment, especially if they have a skill, maybe we'll never 199 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. see them again. COMMISSIONER KING: Correct. And that's what we should do, in addition to hiring a thousand police. That's just my off-the-record comment.
We're talking, Commissioner, about a very small amount of money so you can launch this program. And I would appreciate the Budget Director getting back to the Chair -- and the Chair would obviously get it back to me -- on where we are with finding the funding, this minimum amount of money. Once I see the program working, I then will even go, as I promised, to the private sector, but I'm not about to go out and ask the private sector to support a program through the fund for Philadelphia that isn't adopted by the Administration. I know you're ready to go the minute you get the word. COMMISSIONER KING: Right. 200 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC.
Thank you. COMMISSIONER KING: Again, this is important. We're going to be working with the Zoo. Actually, your idea sort of started things and I know we've started conversations with the Water Department, because they have problems recruiting for some of their entry-level positions, and we're trying to work with them to get an apprenticeship training program going at the Prison so the Water Department can get people who take the Civil Service exam and they're there to get a job with good benefits.
Exactly. You know, everyone seems to assume that as soon as a person has that word "jail" associated with their life, that they're not employable. They are. There's certain jobs -- if we wanted to try to get some of them employed at the Airport, I can understand in that environment that there may be restrictions that the FAA and Homeland Security have, but the Water 201 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. Department is a whole different ball game, especially if there are people that just made a mistake that got them into some trouble. So I would love to hear back before this budget process is over that we found the money to launch this program to put this 80 people that are sitting there that now have the word and they're starting to squirm, I assume, because they want to go work, learn a trade so they can post for a job someplace. Thanks, Commissioner. And, again, I want to mimic what President Verna said. You have created a great environment at that place. I think the people that work with you, there's a lot of pride, and I'm proud to say I know you folks and work with you. COMMISSIONER KING: Thank you, Councilman.
202 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. You're welcome. Are there any other questions or comments from members of the Committee? The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER KING: Good afternoon.
I just want to put on record my concerns about the Jobs Project ending because of the Hendrick funds being -- I guess they've all been spent. COMMISSIONER KING: Well, I think I just signed another contract with Impact Services and the Prison Society, and their money is going to run out, I think, in the end of the fiscal year.
It runs out in June, doesn't it? COMMISSIONER KING: Yeah, the 203 3/28/07 - WHOLE - BILL 070114, ETC. end of this fiscal year.
So the contract you signed is just until June? COMMISSIONER KING: Yeah.