That's correct, just general employees of Universal. 43 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
And they are currently located -- they have office space in the Universal Workforce Development Center located at 1427 Catharine Street in South Philadelphia.
Also in that particular facility, we have our Center for Employment and Training, and we have other service-providers located in that facility -- drug rehab, health. And the process is that we reach out for the particular resident. Once the resident is contacted, we develop a plan for the resident.
And depending on the level of need of that resident, they will enter the process either for training or employment -- placement and employment, GED. Whatever services are required, we begin the action of the plan for the residents.
Now, how many of the residents are participating actively in the self-sufficiency program or how many have been contacted?
I didn't bring the exact 44 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 numbers with me -- we do have the numbers. I would say during this year, roughly about 150 residents.
Well, as you know, very well know, early on, we had a problem with transitioning from RHD over to Universal with the case files, which meant we had to start from the beginning, we had to start all over.
Why? Because a lot of the residents had already had their plans developed. And to develop a plan, you have to do an assessment of the family, and it's a very long process, and a lot of residents -- once you do this particular type of plan for a person, they don't want to go through the process again. So --
Why can't they get the 45 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 information from the previous provider?
We were not able to get the information because PHA would have had to obtain the information and provide it to us because it was owned by PHA. They had contracted with RHD for --
They were not -- from what I understand, they were not able to obtain the information.
They were not able to obtain the information from the contractor that they had hired to do this work?
Well, what I was -- of course, as the people come in, obviously it's not the same people, so you continue to build your case files, and that's what we're doing. And as a matter of fact, we have even planned to pick up the pace because we want to be able to get to where we need to be to help the residents get back on site. And 46 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 the things that we are required to do -- our development partnership is required to do, we know we have to increase the pace. And that's what we're currently doing now.
Tell me about the contract a little bit. Is it a set sum of money, is it a per-person fee?
It's per activity, it's per activity. If we don't perform, we will not get paid. So in other words, if we do not case-manage households, if we do not place people in jobs, if we do not improve people's education, if we do not get people in housing counseling -- so each activity basically has a payment associated with it, and so it's not a flat fee.
Has PHA provided you with the total list of the 700 people and where they were located to?
But you're saying that 47 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 some are reluctant to go back through the process 'cause they did it once already?
Now, of the -- let me make sure I get on the record that Councilman Clarke is here. Now, of the 700 people, how many are relocated relatively near to where you're located?
Okay. Well, I'll just ask the natural follow-up question. Of the 150 that you're working with, how many of them live relatively near where you're located?
I wouldn't have that level of knowledge. I have a vice president at Workforce Development who would have that level of knowledge.
Sure. You want to know how 48 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 many people are close to us?
Yes, the Universal people who are relocated, that's one group; and within that subgroup, how many of the people that you're actually working with, the 150 that you mentioned. I do need you to clear up one thing, if you can just so that, again, we have it on the record. I mean, we get all kinds of information and all kinds of statements are made, and I try to work with facts. Are there any services that you provide that any of the residents have to pay for?
Mm, no. I think there might have been some seminars, business seminars, where we had outside contractors come in and there might have been a $10 fee for something like that, but that's the only thing I can even think of where there would be any kind of charge. And a lot of times, if a resident is attending it, the fee is waived.
If a resident is attending 49 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 that, the fee is waived. So, if we have -- well, Of course, we serve a lot of people in the community, so if we just have regular business people come in, they might pay the $10 fee. But for residents, there's no fee.
Okay. And how do you deal with transportation issues. If a person doesn't live, you know, kind of somewhere in South Philadelphia and they have to get there --
Generally, we provide tokens, we provide transpasses. And so the Resident Council even has a van and they will transport people occasionally to the site.
Mm-hmm. And tell me about some of the -- maybe not everything, but give us some examples of what the self-sufficiency program is about.
Well, the way we see the self-sufficiency program is taking someone who is either under-employed or unemployed, their level of education is not good enough for them to earn a living wage, and that living wage, as we see it, is $8 plus benefits. And to take those people and increase their capabilities to a level where they 50 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 can earn that living wage. That's part of it. The other part of the self-sufficiency program for HOPE VI projects is to be able to develop these individuals in a manner where their creditworthiness, their income, and their knowledge about home ownership is increased to a level where they can return to the site mainly as homeowners. So even we know to return to the site as renters, they have to meet certain qualifications that we have as developers. And so it's the same criteria we use for all of our developments as we return people to the sites.
And how many of the former tenants -- I'm sorry, how many of the residents who are presently not at the site -- because, obviously, no one lives presently at the site -- how many do you anticipate will be in a position to return?
I can't give you a number on how many right now, I can't give you that number right now. That's a very difficult question to answer, very difficult.
Because...? 51 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
Well, because, first of all, some of the people that have moved off the site don't even want to return to the site, some of them are purchasing their own homes, they're comfortable where they've been relocated to at this time. The other part of it is really getting people to participate in the self-sufficiency program. It's a very arduous task to get people to participate, so --
As I mentioned earlier, people are kind of worn down, they get worn down in the process. They were relocated, and at this particular site, some people have been relocated twice. The trust diminishes, you have to reestablish the trust; that's why it's very important that the Resident Council works with us on this issue, because there's a level of trust there. So there's a lot of issues involved with getting people just in the process. And the other part of it is, they have to see something built. So we're just starting to construct the site. So as they -- this will build their hope back up, their faith back up as they see 52 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 something constructed at the site, that, okay, something is really going to happen there because there is a lot of -- there's a loss of hope as people get moved away from their homes like this.
Okay. And just a couple last questions, at least for myself. How many of the former tenants -- how many of the residents work for Universal?
They are what we consider to be our outreach personnel in the HOPE VI office at our site in South Philadelphia.
And this is to basically try and track down the 700-plus residents and get people to --
And also to establish the resident-owned businesses. And they're their two main jobs: To contact former residents and to establish resident-owned businesses and to help us with the employment issue, getting former residents back employed -- as many as we can at the site. 53 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 So it's issues like that.
Currently -- right now, because there's just infrastructure work going on, a lot of dirt being moved around, it's not a lot of opportunities there. As we begin to build, we do expect to have some opportunities during the construction, opportunities during the security. Those are the two main areas for onsite jobs.
Just for my own information so I can have a better understanding of it, what did happen in the Michael Bennett situation? Why was he terminated?
Well, Michael was -- we had an issue with Michael not being on PHA's Section 3 list. And because the contractor in his agreement needs to meet certain Section 3 requirements and Michael was not on the PHA list for Section 3, so this conflict arose like that. And they decided that -- well, they weren't going to be able to count Michael in that matter. What they decided was, they would be able 54 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 to count Michael just as being a minority former resident of the area. So they took him there.
Okay. At the last hearing, we heard a fair amount about a newsletter and other ways of contacting or staying in touch with residents. What's going on with that?
Well, the newsletter is being revamped. PHA wasn't really that happy with the quality of the newsletters that were going out; they felt as though it wasn't enough base information in the newsletter about the CSS. So they --
It's a combination of the Resident Council and Universal staff. So we have come up with a new process for issuing the newsletter. As we develop the newsletter, we'll draft it, we'll send it out to PHA for review and comments. And then before we distribute the newsletter, we'll get kind of like their approval. 55 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
Okay, all right. So why don't you kind of at least wrap up this part. What is your assessment of how self-sufficiency is going at this point?
I think we got a slow start, but right now, we're doing good. And with our current plan to really pick up the pace, we're hiring two new case workers to specifically bolster the team for Schuylkill Falls. They will be dedicated directly to Schuylkill Falls. Then we'll have a stronger team and we plan to pick up the pace.
Just one last item. I received these materials in the mail, and I'm just trying to understand how they relate to these other activities. One is about a basketball tournament and barbecue over at Gusteen Lake apparently this summer, which, I guess, was from 12 to 8, but apparently from 6:30 to 8, there was going to be a presentation. 56 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
And I guess it costs something to put your team in or play or something like that. I mean, is that a part -- what exactly is that about?
The only thing we did as a part of supporting the Resident Council for that particular activity was to make sure that we had at the site -- at this particular event the presentation about what was going on at the site. So that whoever came to participate in that event, the former residents would be able to see something of substance at the event. Basically, we had the presentation boards there for the development at the site.
Um, I'd have to ask the staff person at Resident Council what happened to the $10.
Okay. The other thing that seemed a little unusual was a flyer regarding the opportunity for Schuylkill Falls residents to get to purchase cell phones. What is that about?
I have no knowledge of that. 57 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
Well, it says, "Contact Schuylkill Falls Family Support Center Program," and that any Schuylkill Falls resident -- employed, unemployed, retired, good credit, no 9 credit, bad credit, whatever -- that there's a cell phone for them.
Excuse me. On that particular flyer that you have, does it say "Universal," or does it say "Schuylkill falls Family Support Center"?
It's all a part of a big package. It says "Schuylkill Falls Family Support Center."
I really don't know who sent you the package, but let me explain. We negotiated with Sprint.
Schuylkill Falls Family 58 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 Support Center negotiated with Sprint in order to reestablish or construct some credit for those who did not have credit in Schuylkill Falls. Sprint had allowed us a program that will do -- that will allow them, if they purchase the phone, they would do a waiver of credit, meaning if they had good credit, bad credit, or no credit, to restructure, to establish some credit, they could get connected. And that was a program that we had went and sought out, and we had long meetings and we discussed with Sprint. And they allowed us this program, this pilot program, for about three months. So that way, part of the criteria is to have some kind of identifiable credit when you come to purchase a home when this site was revitalized and redone, which I think was -- we should be saluted for. It was remarkable that you could go out there with a big phone entity like Sprint and negotiate a deal like that to reestablish some credit for those folks who do not have credit at all. So -- and if it does not say "Universal" and it's part of a package, you would probably have to reveal the whole package so we can identify each 59 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 piece for you. Thank you.
My question is to the last gentleman. I'm not clear on that. You were looking -- correct me if I'm wrong, but you were looking for a way in which to establish a credit history for folks who live in the Schuylkill Falls area to -- by way of renting a phone or leasing a phone, what have you, and if they continue to make payments and they make payments on time, that that could be used as a credit history?
We didn't say lease a phone or rent a phone. They would be responsible for a phone bill, which will show up on their credit history as part of their credit history. That is correct.
Well, I think, whether it's to lease or rent, whatever the proper term is, so if you get a phone from Sprint in your name and you make your payments and you're current, that would be a part of the credit history so that 60 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 when you make application for -- whether it's a home purchase or you're purchasing a car or something --
Is there anything beyond the use of a phone that would be helpful to those folks to look into, or is it just the phone? And how did you get to Sprint, who came up with the idea of Sprint?
Well, actually, we were looking at a couple of 'em -- Nextel, 'cause folks like the way that the two-way radio works and stuff like that, but for low-income public housing, there's not many folks that will allow someone on a fixed income or allow someone on SSI or no income to purchase a phone, meaning on public assistance, would be considered no income, although it is an income. And this opportunity was afforded to us, and it's a benefit because, once again, one of the criterias [sic] for buying a house or buying a car or something like that is to have some established 61 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 credit. And, as you know, no credit is worse than bad credit.
Are these folks who already have a phone, a hard-line phone, if you will, in their home or residence?
I think when we had done our survey, we had a population of over 65 percent using prepaid. A prepaid phone is minutes -- $25 10 for like 100 minutes per month, in our survey. So 11 now we offer them 3500 minutes for $39.99 per month. 12 In our survey that we had done, they just have to 13 purchase the phone and that will allow them to get a 14 bill per month, no matter how bad they credit was, 15 no matter if they messed it up when they were young 16 or somebody else messed they credit up. 17
I can understand the 18 opportunity for maybe a better deal as far as the 19 amount of time you get to use a phone, but if you 20 already have a hard line coming into your home for a 21 phone, whether it's Verizon, whether it's this 22 prepaid phone payment plan, what have you, isn't 23 that sufficient enough to establish a credit 24 history? 25 Why cell phones? I always think of cell 62 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 phones -- with no disrespect -- as basically a luxury. I mean, I don't think it's something you have to have.
Okay. And I'm sure Councilman Ortiz and Councilman Nutter has a cell phone. Is cable considered a luxury?
I keep thinking that -- well, no, it's your choice. If you can afford it, you get cable. I keep thinking about discontinuing 'cause I don't get a chance to use it, but that's my choice. But if I didn't pay the bill, obviously, they would cut it off. 63 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 If I had to make a choice between cable and --
-- between cable and electricity and heating, I would certainly opt for electricity and heating.
You are correct, it is your choice. And what we are doing now in public housing that has not been done before is offer them that choice to purchase that phone. As the flyers say, you have an opportunity. Good credit, bad credit, or no credit, you in public housing have a choice to get a cell phone. Now, I have a cell phone. You don't think my mom would like to contact me? You don't think I'd like to contact her if she's outside of that hard line? I think she would -- I know she would. I want to know where she is, I'm concerned. And I think my outreach worker and I think my mom's girlfriend, and I think the vice president of City Council, when they're in a meeting, they need to be picked up. Down Raymond Rosen or Johnson Homes or somewhere else, they can pick up that cell phone 64 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 just as well and use it. So it's their choice.
Well, personally, I wish some days I didn't have a pager or a cell phone, but I wonder how we all got in touch with each other before.
I could go back to party lines but I'm sure you're too young to remember that. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Dawan, with regard to the self-sufficiency issues. Mr. Totaro, let's talk about -- in the discussion we had a couple weeks ago, you and I had a Q and A with regard to market-rate issues, subsidized housing. You indicated, and you raise in your letter as well, that basically there's not much difference between the proposal up at Schuylkill Falls and the development at Society Hill as well as the development in Rittenhouse Square. And do you take it that there is no particular definition now of "market rate"? 65 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
It's clear to me that there is not one to which everyone involved in this effort can agree.
It means what a willing buyer or renter will pay to a willing, knowledgeable seller or landlord without duress in the open marketplace.
Right. And how do we know what the market rate is, whether for rental or for sale in that general neighborhood at that particular site is?
The conventional way to determine that is to have a qualified real estate appraiser undertake a market study.
And we have actually done that a number of times. And it is only good for a given period of time until that analyst can project market conditions going forward, which is, of course, part of their trade. And some are better at it than others.
Now, when you say that 66 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 you've done that, are you talking about by way of the Delta report?
Okay. And just so I understand this, did you participate in the development of -- I don't know whether it was a scope of services for Delta or --
I participated in a number of discussions with the East Falls community and former Mayor Rendell and Schuylkill Falls residents and developer representatives in which the need for an updated market study was discussed. I had no direct input in the formulation of the scope of services.
And it was an interesting scope. It was fairly narrowly tailored.
That's what I wanted to ask you about On , this is -- well, it's not of the report, it's of a letter. I guess it's a transmittal letter to my good friend Miss Fletman in the back. They talk about the project parameters. 67 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 This is Delta's work parameters. And they said that there are certain given that we have been instructed to accept at this HOPE VI-funded project: 1. Delta associates work hereunder focuses on 50 townhouse units. 2. The general layout of the project is set as shown in Exhibit B. 3. The site features and amenities are fixed as planned. 4. A total of 300 market-rate and non-market-rate housing units are planned for the site. Do you have any information as to who determined that those four criteria were kind of set in stone, if you will?
My understanding is that the former mayor pretty well laid out the scope.
Okay. They go further in that same letter, the next paragraph, to say: "We understand that their configuration cannot be altered. The remaining 165 units are planned as 68 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 follows: 50 market-rate for-sale townhouses, 30 market-rate for-rent apartments, 85 non-market-rate for-sale units. Is it also your understanding that none of the configuration can be altered?
Again, it is my understanding that the market analyst was engaged to determine the marketability of that particular development scheme. That is not the development scheme that has been approved by the PHA, the community, and HUD for this development. It is --
In the approved revitalization plan, there are no unsubsidized sales housing units, and I believe the description that you just read posits the development of 50 unsubsidized sales housing units.
Well, there's been a lot of discussion about that. Is that a topic that's still under active discussion, or has that 69 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 disappeared?
It's still under active discussion from the developer's point of view.
Mm-hmm. Have you come up with any good ideas recently?
We have determined that if a source of funding that has no strings that would limit the beneficiary of that funding being a home buyer by reason of income, then the difference between the value of the completed property, the market value of that property, and the actual cost to develop that property could be covered or funded from that source. The unit could then be sold at market value without regard to the income of the buyer.
Let me ask this question about configuration: Have you explored any options by way of the discussion again that we had a couple weeks ago on the record and some other discussions that you and I have had and I think John 70 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 Rosenthal from the past and also Mr. Raheem -- do you know of any way that the present configuration -- I hate to use the same word in the same sentence but in a different way -- that the present configuration could be reconfigured such that there would be more of a mixing between the rental units, whether subsidized or unsubsidized, and the for-sale units, whether subsidized or unsubsidized in -- you gave me a new description of the property today. You're now talking about Phase I being on the east, Phase II being on the west. And in the past, the discussion was always kind of Phase II closer to Ridge Avenue -- I'm sorry Phase I closer to Ridge Avenue and Phase II a little farther away. However you describe it and whichever it is -- whether it's north, south, east, or west -- have you given thought to a way to change the various units around?
The rental housing development of 135 units is fixed. We have closed on the financing and started construction. There is really no way without suffering extraordinary financial loss of reconfiguring or 71 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 restructuring transaction. The balance of the units --
You're saying that moving -- 'cause no one's -- I mean, for the most part, you're really not talking about not building them. You're saying that the mere changing of location of where different types of units are on the same site causes fiscal distress?
There are some odd requirements of these various programs. The rental housing units are being developed in part with financing from private activity, tax-exempt bonds. Counsel tell us that the properties that are subject of such financing must literally be contiguous, one to the other, in a specific bond issue. The properties on the site as it is currently delineated --
If you know, you'll tell me; if you don't know, you'll me. Why?
It's a provision of the Internal Revenue code, I am told. I don't know why.
So that the folks of 72 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 the IRS care one way or the other whether one unit -- one type of unit is next to the other type of unit in terms of, you know, their involvement in what is, in essence, a tax credit deal?
Okay, all right. Go ahead. What other factors come into play here?
The only other constraints on reconfiguration of the development would be the limitations deriving from the source of funds for each component as it is currently approved and the physical approvals issued by the City in planning, zoning, and permitting. They would be, as I see it, as I sit here this afternoon, the only real constraints on some reconfiguration of the remaining buildings.
Well, between and among those various agencies, I would have to think -- I mean, I can understand that the City is never, you know, a stroll in the park to deal with, but between the City, PHFA, the IRS, HUD, and PHA, I'm assuming that we've got to be about the easiest 73 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 folks to deal with in the context of what unit goes where. I mean, I don't know that we have --
Yeah. I mean, other than general zoning and what you're allowed to put, the site is already -- well, we won't go into the -- zoning of a site -- discussion. Okay. What have you looked at by way of -- I mean, there are generally two ways to solve a financial problem. I mean, you either increase the revenues available or decrease the costs.
If you take a look at the other side of the equation, which is some options on the decrease the cost, size, keep your expenses down, keep the same amount of revenues that you have and increase your margin that way.
Correct. One consideration, an obvious one, is in the size of the units, the type of materials, the type of construction, the amenities. And we have discounted any --
Well, let me -- I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. I was not talking about in ways that would in any way, shape, 74 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 or form be detrimental to the actual unit or the living space.
If anything, I think we're trying to make sure that the -- I mean, I couldn't necessarily tell you the exact sizes of any of the particular units; it's in the material. But, I mean, the size will certainly stay the same, every possible effort should be made to have quality construction, design, and materials so that the look and the actual infrastructure of all of the units, whether they're, you know, rental, for sale, subsidized, unsubsidized -- I mean, again, as I best understood the concept here, everything was pretty much supposed to look the same except for some different shapes, if you will, of certain units, as well as interior amenities that go with them. But, I mean, I want to make sure that we're crystal-clear here on the record. I'm not talking about reducing the cost of the development by basically shortchanging or cutting corners in design, materials, and what the units look like. What I was asking was, given the -- what is this, 40, $50 million of development? 75 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218
Maybe close to 60? Whether there were other elements within a fairly large budget that give you any leeway in terms of reducing overall costs and, again, increasing the margins that you have available to do other positive things at the site.
I was about to say we had rejected any consideration of reducing quality. As I earlier testified --
What we have considered is -- our current plan and the cost associated with it involves the use of a commercial union contractor for the construction of the sales housing units. (Interruption.)
I was saying that our current plan and the costs associated with it involve the use of a union commercial contractor to construct 76 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 the sales housing units. You may know that that is not the conventional mode by which sales housing units, even though it's exceeding a million dollars in costs, are constructed. An alternate approach could in fact reduce the cost, and we have explored that, to answer your question. Rather, our principal focus has been on the source side of the dilemma. And we have explored, at least in conversation with some, the potential use of Neighborhood Transformation Initiative funds in a rather modest amount, which could serve to write down part of the excess capital cost; that is, that cost which exceeds the market value of the completed unit. And being derived from proceeds of a general obligation bond, it is my understanding that there would be no strings associated with that source of funds, that there would be no limitation, therefore, on the income of the buyer who would purchase a unit developed through that mechanism. So that certainly is something that we have explored as well.
Mm-hmm. How far has that discussion gone or what -- I mean, how much 77 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 exploration has there been and just where is that?
We have certainly talked about it internally, we've talked about it with PHA officials. We haven't taken it any further until this moment.
Mm-hmm. You still hold to the basic premise, though, that -- and I appreciate your updated information -- 135 rental and now you're saying 28 for sale in Phase I. The 28 are in what configuration, and 4? 12
They would be for-sale 16 housing units developed with support from the Hope 17 VI Program. And, therefore, buyers would be limited 18 to those with incomes not more than 115 percent of 19 median income. 20 But they would be generally three-bedroom 21 units, identical to the three-bedroom townhouse 22 units that are in the 135-unit rental development in 23 the same location. 24
I thought if you used the HOPE VI money, you were restricted more by 78 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 the --
It was -- I know for the 103 rental, I thought it was a third at 40 percent or lower, a third between 40 and 50, and a third between 50 and 60. How do you end up at 115?
There is a different limitation on the sales housing units, and it varies by program year in which the HOPE VI grant was awarded. This particular award is eligible or permitted to develop sales housing units with HOPE VI funding and make them available to households generally at not more than 100 percent of median, but 15 percent of the units can be sold to folks having incomes of up to 115 percent of the median.
So of the 28, what's the breakdown on that? I mean, how many fit into which category?
Mm-hmm. And you're saying that because you have -- and they all get paid for out of the HOPE VI dollars?
A portion of the cost to 79 12/10/01 COMMERCE & ECON. DEV. - RES. 010218 develop those units would be written down with HOPE VI dollars. The balance, which would be equivalent to the market value of the completed unit, would be financed in the private marketplace. The buyer would put down deposit money as equity investment, and the buyer would obtain private mortgage financing to finance the balance of the purchase price.
Mm-hmm. Have you been able to mark up a site map and lay out both from a Phase I, Phase II, 135 rental, 28 for sale, where these different units would be on the site?