COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania5 Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 10:20 a.m. - - - Res. 090226 - Approval of revised Five-Year8 Financial Plan covering FY 2010 through 2014. Bill 090212 - FY '10-'15 Capital Program. Bill 090213 - FY '10 Capital Budget. Bill 090214 - FY '10 Operating Budget. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Anna C. Verna, Chair Marian B. Tasco, Co-Chair15 Jannie C. Blackwell Blondell Reynolds-Brown16 Darrell L. Clarke Wilson W. Goode, Jr.17 Bill Green William K. Greenlee18 Curtis Jones, Jr. James F. Kenney19 Donna Reed Miller Frank Rizzo20 Maria Quiñones Sanchez - - -22 V A R A L L O Incorporated23 Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 60024 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.267025 2 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Good2 morning, everyone. This is a continued3 public hearing of the Committee of the4 Whole.5 Our first department to testify6 this morning...7 MR. McPHERSON: ... is the First8 Judicial District.9 (Witnesses come forward.)10
-- and members of15 the Committee of the Whole. I'm David16 Lawrence. I am the Court Administrator17 for the First Judicial District of18 Pennsylvania. And with me today is the19 President Judge of the Court of Common20 Pleas and Chair of the Administrative21 Governing Board, Judge Pam Demby; and22 Kevin Cross, Deputy Court Administrator23 for Financial Services. We're here today24 to submit testimony in support of the25 3 4/29/09 COMM. 7 The Court has a history and8 traditional of being a responsible partner9 in government for the City Council and the10 Mayor. 7 million. In the spirit22 of cooperation, we immediately did so and23 imposed a hiring freeze, identified24 economies in Budget Classes 200, 300, and25 4 4/29/09 COMM. 5 million, as was appropriated25 5 4/29/09 COMM. 5. 5 percent reduction in our actual5 cost to the City. 5 million the Court pays for7 indigent defense, which is, in fact, a8 responsibility of the City. 15 The Court has been proactive in16 its efforts to increase revenues which17 accrue to the City. 23 Additionally, we've imposed an24 electronic filing fee and credit card25 6 4/29/09 COMM. 14 The only place to absorb this15 cost is in Personnel. 20 The Court has recently21 implemented changes in its case flow22 management practices, which has had an23 impact on the prison population by24 reducing the length of time persons spend25 7 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 in jail. 25 8 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 We are aware that City Council2 recently held hearings on the possible3 expansion of Community Court. If we are4 faced with a budget of $99 million, we5 will be forced to seriously consider6 discontinuing our current Community Court7 as well as other successful problem-8 solving courts, such as Treatment Court,9 DUI Treatment Court, and the Mortgage10 Foreclosure Court, as well as the11 elimination of supervised noncustodial12 parent visitation. 6 million. We feel we can23 reach this figure without the need for24 layoffs and the possibility of closing for25 9 4/29/09 COMM. 9 We are happy to entertain any10 questions that Council might have. 12
Thank13 you very much, Mr. Lawrence. And it's14 quite obvious that the Courts are15 certainly trying to cooperate.16
It's19 quite obvious.20 In your testimony, you said that21 the Courts may have to close two days a22 month?23
It is25 10 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 being rumored that the Courts are2 considering furloughs. Is that true? and3 can you tell us how this would affect the4 operations of the Courts?5
Certainly. In6 order to meet the $7.3 million deficit7 we're facing, we have two choices or a8 combination of those choices. One is the9 layoff of 209 people, or the closing of10 courts for 22 days during the year.11 What we're looking at now is12 some combination of that in the form of13 reducing the number of layoffs and doing14 some number of closures, which we'll call15 "days of furlough"; they'll be unpaid16 leave days for our employees.17 What that does is, it will18 decrease the delay we experience in the19 disposition of cases. When we increase20 delay, the inverse impact is an increase21 in the prison population. The result is22 people staying on the street longer,23 before they have their day in court. And,24 similarly, people who may be not guilty25 11 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 stay in jail longer, until they can get2 out of jail. People will remain in foster3 care longer because we're unable to4 conduct as many termination-of-parental-5 rights hearings.6 When the justice system closes7 down, the obvious end-result is delay.8 And justice delayed is justice denied.9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: May I add to10 that, Madam President? We can close --11
Your12 Honor, I'm sorry. Would you just13 introduce yourself for the record.14 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I'm sorry.15 President Judge Pamela Demby of the Court16 of Common Pleas.17 We can close the courtrooms, and18 that will have the consequences that19 Mr. Lawrence has spelled out for us, but20 there are other things that we can't21 close; or if we do, the results are also22 catastrophic but perhaps not quite so23 visible.24 Because of the hiring freeze and25 12 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the continuing decline in our personnel2 roster, we already have over 4,0003 parolees or probationers who are, in4 essence, receiving almost no supervision5 at all because we don't have enough bodies6 to do meaningful supervision. And on top7 of that, we had to make a decision8 yesterday to cap DUI Treatment Court at9 (indiscernible).10 Now, 50 percent of DUI homicides11 involve a driver who's a repeat DUI12 defendant. And these are the people that13 we're not going to not be able to14 supervise. So, when we furlough -- close15 down the courts, that kind of situation16 becomes even more acute.17
Thank18 you, Your Honor.19 I think one of the more serious20 problems that we're facing is that 7721 percent of those incarcerated are22 detainees. I think if we were to address23 that problem, it would really be very,24 very helpful.25 13 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Has the Court -- you know, for2 years, we've been talking about the Court,3 the DA, whoever else is involved getting4 together to find some avenue whereby this5 problem could be resolved.6 What is happening? Is there any7 improvement in what we could be doing to8 resolve the problem?9
I'm happy to10 answer yes.11 We have recently implemented12 several programs designed to decrease the13 detention or population in the14 Philadelphia County prisons. One deals15 with the manner in which we deal with16 persons held on violations of probation.17 Prior to the implementation of18 this program, which just began roughly six19 weeks ago, a person would be incarcerated20 on a violation of probation, and the judge21 whose sentence they were serving may no22 longer be in the criminal courts; they may23 be in the family courts, they could be on24 the civil courts. And because we couldn't25 14 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 bring judges back and forth and shuttle2 them every day between buildings, we would3 wait until the judge had a number of4 violations to make it worthwhile to hold5 the hearing. That could be 30 days, that6 could be 45 days. Now those cases are7 being heard before one judge within 308 days, Joan Brown, in order to expedite the9 disposition of that violation probation.10 The other program -- that11 program we call is AVOPP, and for the12 stenographer, that's A-V-O-P-P.13 The other program we're working14 on is called the ARC Program; it's an15 accelerated review program. And what16 happens here is that many, many, many17 people in the Philadelphia County prisons18 are not there because of a single case;19 they're there for a new arrest. A new20 arrest might have caused one, two, three21 or four probation violations to occur.22 And what that would end up in is, the23 defendant would have to go see one, two,24 three, or four judges to get all of their25 15 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 cases resolved.2 When cases come into the Court3 of Common Pleas, at the arraignment stage,4 now, we're not looking at the case itself;5 we're looking at the person, and we're6 trying to determine what exactly the7 situation is with this person, and can8 there be a resolution to it that's going9 to deal with all of the cases at one time.10 We're doing that with the cooperation of11 the District Attorney, the cooperation of12 the Defender Association. And what we're13 beginning to see is a noticeable drop by14 several hundred in the prison population.15 I'm also very pleased to say16 that as we speak today, the first video17 teleconferencing dispositions are18 occurring in the IP Drug Treatment Program19 at the prison. We hope to do at least ten20 guilty pleas today. That will save21 anywhere from 30 to 60 days off the length22 of detention for these individuals.23 So we are looking at not only24 the cooperative practices of the various25 16 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 and justice partners but making use of2 available technology to address the prison3 population problem.4 As most of you know, I think the5 population has dropped recently by several6 hundred, and I would like to think it's in7 part due to the programs we have initiated8 as well as the transfer of several groups9 of inmates to the State institutions.10 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I would11 merely like to add -- this is President12 Judge Demby again -- that the video13 interactive capability in all of the14 county prisons, as soon as we can get it15 fully implemented, is going to be very,16 very important if we do indeed face a17 pandemic. We'd be looking at prisons,18 which is where we bring the least healthy19 of our citizens, in close quarters, with20 devastating possible effects.21 So we are very much pushing to22 get that fully installed as fast as23 possible so that we can handle as many24 things without, number one, bringing sick25 17 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 people to the Criminal Justice Center or2 keeping them in jail any longer than we3 have to.4
And5 what is the status of the installation of6 the videos?7
That is a work in8 progress. We're working hand in hand with9 the Prison Commissioner. We have video10 capability at CFCF.11
I'm sorry.16 And, unfortunately, we have to17 bring everybody from the other county18 institutions to CFCF to have their video19 hearing. What we want to do is get video20 installations in all of the various county21 prisons so that we eliminate the need for22 that prisoner movement.23 I would think within 60 days, it24 should be up and running.25 18 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
That's2 wonderful.3 Can you explain what's the4 mission of the Criminal Justice Advisory5 Board? I know that there's an article in6 today's paper.7
Yes, there was an8 article in today's paper.9 (Laughter.)10
The Criminal13 Justice Advisory Board is an organization14 that was -- we were encouraged to form by15 the PCDC, which is the Pennsylvania16 Commission on Crime and Delinquency, which17 handles a lot of the funding that comes18 through the states to the local justice19 systems.20 You may recall, prior to having21 a CJAB, we had a Criminal Justice22 Coordinating Commission, and we've had23 that for years. That was a loose24 association with no real bylaws of the25 19 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 justice partners who would gather every2 now and then to talk about the same3 problems that we've been talking about for4 the past 15 or 20 years, and not a whole5 lot came out of that group, other than6 friendly discussion.7 The CJAB is a more structured8 group. It has voting members, non-voting9 members, there are bylaws. And the goal10 of this CJAB is to address, in a11 cooperative fashion, any number of12 problems that face the criminal justice13 system.14 The participants include the15 Police, the Prisons, the Court, the DA,16 the Defender, representatives from the17 Administration, Judge Demby and Everett18 Gillison, Co-chair. And although we do19 have our disagreements at times, we think20 it is an excellent vehicle to address the21 issues we're facing.22 And I point to the two23 programs -- the three programs that I24 referenced earlier as evidence of the type25 20 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 of product that the CJAB can produce.2
That's3 wonderful.4 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I would just5 like to say that we must be pretty hot6 stuff if we managed to take some newspaper7 space away from the freshman Democratic8 senator from Pennsylvania.9 (Laughter.)10
How11 many members are on the board?12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Of the CJAB?13
It's 14 or 15.17 Our vote was 9 to 5, so that would make it18 14.19 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Right.20
Could21 you send me a list of who is on that22 board, please, so that we don't have to23 take time now?24 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Certainly.25 21 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
It was2 reported again in today's paper that the3 Advisory Board proposed a spending plan4 different than the one proposed by the5 Mayor. Could you give us a detailed6 explanation, if you will, of the revised7 --8
I'd be happy to9 provide with you a copy of the resolution.10 The resolution was introduced by11 District Attorney Abraham, and what it did12 was, take the $936 million that has been13 designated as Public Safety dollars by the14 Mayor and make some reallocations to15 spread the pain, I'll say, a little more16 equally among the various institutions.17 The Police, I believe, were18 asked to take a very, very minor hit of19 less than 3/10ths of a percent. The20 Prisons were asked -- the Prisons got a21 small increase; we're asking the Prisons22 to forego that small increase.23
Excuse24 me. The small increase was how much?25 22 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 because I think, from what I read, it was2 being proposed that it -- the prisons be3 reduced by $9 million? Would you consider4 that a small increase?5
No. The6 information that we received at CJAB7 yesterday is that the Mayor's budget8 called for $248.8 million.9
And, to be honest12 with you, I was not the architect of this.13
I can get you the15 answers.16 I think the biggest difference17 is that the level of cuts that the Courts18 and the DA would encounter were reduced,19 and that the Defender Association was20 asked to take a small reduction in order21 to make up some of that.22 There was a, I'll call it, a23 "spirited discussion" between District24 Attorney Abraham and the Chief of the25 23 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Defenders, Mrs. Greenlee.2
Oh, I3 would love to have been there.4 (Laughter.)5 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I watched6 from under my desk.7 (Laughter.)8
And we realize9 this not a binding resolution. It's a10 recommendation that perhaps the Council11 would take a look at possibly realigning12 the way the cuts for Public Safety were13 administered to see if there isn't14 something that could be done so that we15 don't have to lay off 209 people and the16 DA doesn't have to get rid of a hundred17 prosecutors.18 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Let me just19 add in there that there are some very good20 reasons why we supported the District21 Attorney's proposal.22 In asking the Police to take a23 small cut, we're not asking that there be24 fewer police officers. We are working25 24 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 very hard with Commissioner Ramsey to2 reduce police overtime, which is a -- can3 be an astonishing number.4 We are -- we've already5 described the efforts we're taking to pull6 down the prison population. And to the7 steps that that's effective, that will8 allow them to reduce -- to take a slightly9 reduced budget, without impacting10 services.11 In the original proposal of the12 Mayor, the DA was taking almost a 2513 percent cut. There's no criminal14 courtroom that we can run without a15 district attorney in the room.16 I don't need a public defender17 in every courtroom. There are a number of18 services that the defenders provide --19 and, granted, they provide them very, very20 well -- but in a time when we may not be21 able to afford Cadillacs, we can use22 appointed counsel who are also screened23 and competent, and do that for a lower24 cost certainly for an interim of a couple25 25 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 of years.2 So, in doing this, we really3 honestly believe that those justice4 partners who would be taking a decrease5 would get the support that they need to be6 able to continue to function at the levels7 we expect.8
I was9 trying to listen to what you were saying.10 I was interrupted for a moment. When you11 spoke about the police overtime, were you12 talking about the court overtime?13 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes, ma'am.14
I know15 I sound like a broken record, and many,16 many moons ago -- many moons ago -- I17 worked in the District Attorney's Office,18 and I was in charge of listing cases.19 And we did not have computers at20 the time, and I know I'm aging myself. I21 used to go through each and every bill of22 indictment. And, invariably, you would23 find Officer Verna, and Officer Greenlee24 working together. I would call the25 26 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Roundhouse: Are Officers Greenlee and2 Verna available the week of June 22nd?3 Will they be on vacation? And if I was4 told they would not be, then I would5 automatically list all of their cases in6 the same courtroom on the same day.7 I don't understand. Today, we8 have computers; all you'd have to do is9 push a button. And I don't know why you10 wouldn't get information that Officers11 Greenlee and Verna's cases wouldn't come12 up, and you'd list them in the same13 courtroom, rather than have all of these14 other police officers in a courtroom just15 sitting around, waiting, hoping that their16 case would be called.17 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Well, in the18 five or six years since you were working19 at the DA's Office, there's been some20 changes.21
No,22 it's seven, it's seven.23 (Laughter.)24 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: There have25 27 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 been some institutional changes.2 One of them is that there is now3 a provision in the police -- the FOP4 contract which allows an officer to take a5 vacation day any day between May and6 October.7 So, when we use the police8 liaison, or whoever we can get from the9 DA's Office, to assure us that the officer10 will, indeed, be available on July 15th or11 whatever, and the officer says he'll be12 available, we go about our merry way. The13 officer then puts in for a vacation day,14 shows up and testifies anyway, but15 collects extra.16
I'll17 tell you, your testimony has been very18 encouraging today. It really has been.19 The Chair recognizes Councilman20 Goode.21
Thank you,22 Madam President.23 Good morning, President Judge24 Demby and Mr. Lawrence and Mr. Cross.25 28 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.2
Mr. Lawrence,3 in your testimony, you said that the4 Criminal Justice Advisory Board was,5 quote/unquote, encouraged to be created by6 the State to monitor State funding coming7 to the City?8
That's correct.9 Basically, the PCDC,10 Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and11 Delinquency, requires a county to have a12 criminal justice advisory board to receive13 monies flowing through that organization.14
I think it would17 be at the -- I would say Everett Gillison18 took the lead in establishing the CJAB.19
And in the20 creation of the CJAB, what was the mission21 beyond what was encouraged by the PCDC?22
Well, the mission23 as I stated, is to work cooperatively to24 resolve the problems that face the25 29 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 criminal justice system while, at the same2 time, recognizing and preserving the3 independence of the various members of the4 board.5
And so you6 said the varying interests of the7 independent members of the board.8
So do you10 think it's appropriate that the CJAB11 determine the budget appropriations for12 other members of the CJAB?13
We think that the14 board does have the authority to do that15 in the bylaws. We also stress that it's a16 recommendation. We're not determining17 policy.18
But you said19 you were encouraged to make20 recommendations or to look at state21 funding. At what point were you22 encouraged to look at City funding?23
I'm sorry. I24 couldn't hear you.25 30 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
At what point2 were you encouraged to look at City3 funding? Is that in the bylaws?4
No. That was8 done at the initiation of the District9 Attorney's Office.10
Who else, as14 members of the CJAB, worked on that15 resolution?16
As far as I know,17 just the District Attorney. We were18 presented with it.19
And at what20 point were you presented with it, at the21 meeting when it was voted on in?22
No. It was23 circulated prior to the meeting to all the24 members.25 31 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Okay. And2 so, every member got a chance to review3 it?4
Okay. And6 who at this table here as voting7 authority?8
Both you and11 Judge Demby have voting authority?12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.13
Can you tell17 me what the impact of a $9 million cut to18 the prison system would be?19
Can you tell21 me what the impact of a $2 million cut to22 the Defender Association would be?23
They've indicated24 that they may to shed some people.25 32 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Can you tell6 me what the $200,000 cut to the Clerk of7 Quarter Sessions would mean?8
No. I can tell9 you what the cut of $15 million in the10 Courts will be.11
But you can't12 tell me how those other agencies would be13 impacted.14
So why not16 just request more money for the Court17 system and District Attorney's Office as18 opposed to cutting those agencies if you19 have not studied what those cuts will mean20 to the criminal justice system?21
The issue,22 Councilman, is, let's try and be equitable23 here. We feel that the Court --24
No, we've25 33 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 already -- the issue for Council is to try2 to be equatable, the issue for the Mayor3 is to try to be equatable in setting up a4 budget and approving the budget.5 We've already established that6 it may not be the mission of the CJAB to7 be equitable in terms of local funding;8 that may not be your charge and mission or9 responsibility --10
Particularly13 if you have not studied those budgets and14 know how those agencies will be impacted.15
That's correct.16 I can't predict what the impact would be17 on the Prisons.18 What I can tell you is that the19 system, under the current setup, will20 spend in excess of $40 million on indigent21 defense and $24 million on prosecution.22
Can you tell23 me what the primary reason for prison24 overcrowding is?25 34 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Okay. I'm6 glad you said that.7 You said that you've achieved,8 through some of your own actions and9 initiatives, reducing the prison10 population by a few hundred.11
Do you13 actually believe that that's an ambitious14 goal?15
How much do21 you plan on decreasing the prison22 population in Fiscal Year '10 from the23 money you're planning on taking from other24 agencies?25 35 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
I don't know that2 you can key it to the money we're, quote,3 taking from other agencies.4
Well,5 actually, I can because you decided to6 take on a budgetary role of Council and7 shift dollars. And so, I'm saying, for8 the money you take from other agencies,9 what can we expect in terms of a decrease10 the prison population in Fiscal Year '10?11
We will decrease12 the prison population as much as we can we13 possibly can, given the constraints under14 which we operate.15
Deputy Mayor16 Gillison, in previous budget testimony,17 said he'd like to see the prison18 population decrease by 3,000. Over what19 period of time do you believe that can be20 done?21
I can tell you24 that by our own actions, we can do at25 36 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 least 500.2
You can do3 500.4 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: This year.5 This coming year, sir.6
I do, given the9 nature of the prison population. It's a10 very complex population. People are in11 there for multiple, multiple cases. And12 you have to treat one individually. You13 have to triage each individual in the14 prison to find out how they can best be15 dealt with, whether it's drug addiction,16 mental illness, homelessness.17 There's a myriad reasons that18 people are in jail, and you have to treat19 each one as an individual and address20 their needs --21 (Timer bell rings.)22
-- while, at the23 same time, doing what you have to do from24 a public safety standpoint.25 37 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
And do you2 think you can accomplish that effectively3 by cutting the prison's budget by4 $9 million?5
I don't know. I10 don't know how the Commissioner would11 address a $9 million cut.12
No, I'm13 asking you, can you accomplish what you14 just mentioned while, at the same time,15 cutting the prison's budget by $9 million?16
Okay. Thank18 you, Madam President.19 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:20 Councilman Jones.21
Thank you,22 Madam President.23 Good morning.24 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.25 38 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Let me ask a2 series of yes or no questions just to get3 my questions on the right track.4 Does the Courts, Prisons, and5 the Police Department, the DA's Office,6 many of the members of CJAB constitute7 approximately 25 percent of our operating8 budget?9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.10
Of that11 process, do we have currently somewhere in12 the neighborhood of, arguably, 10,00013 people in incarceration that have been14 through the criminal justice system, and15 then, at the other end, some of them that16 are being supervised through our parole17 systems?18 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: No.19
We don't have20 10,000 people up at State Road?21 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We have22 consistently -- since we began23 implementing the programs that we24 described earlier, which were not25 39 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 available for calculation, I think, when2 the Mayor made the original calculations,3 it is now consistently at or below 9400,4 so it's --5
That's a --9 that's progress.10 Is it true that we have11 approximately 1250 or so non-violent12 offenders up on State Road? Roughly about13 a thousand?14
It's possible.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: That's16 possible. It depends on how you define17 "non-violent."18
Okay. And19 out of that, that cost us approximately20 what, 43 million and up a year?21 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.22
And I'm just23 rounding these numbers out.24 So if those things are true,25 40 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 then it is important for me and, I2 believe, the City of Philadelphia that,3 CJAB be in a room, talking about how to4 create efficiencies within their5 respective departments, crossing6 artificial silos and barriers that7 historically have kept one department from8 working with another department.9 Historically, the Police10 Department gets aggressive on the streets.11 And then it means it has a impact on the12 prison population, which has an impact on13 the court system, which has a impact on14 the parole system. And thank God that,15 finally, they are in a room, meeting, with16 an objective towards being more efficient17 at their operation.18 Is that a rough guesstimate as19 to the purpose of CJAB?20 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're21 absolutely right.22 One of the most active23 subcommittees is the Prison Overcrowding24 Subcommittee, which, in addition to the25 41 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 CJAB meetings, which always spend2 significant time on the overcrowding3 issue, Subcommittee gets down into the4 dirt and works out details and comes up5 with initiatives and is very -- we are6 going to see very significant prison7 population declines.8 I'm sorry that I -- because we9 don't yet even have all of the video10 cameras online, I can't give Councilman11 Goode a number --12
Councilman13 Goode can ask his questions. He is very14 capable of asking his questions. I just15 want to focus on mine.16 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I apologize.17
And so, if18 those things are true, then cutting your19 budget now might be at cross purposes to20 do that.21 You have probation officers that22 are supposed to be somewhere around 4023 people per caseload, that are doing close24 to 70 per caseload, which defeats the25 42 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 purpose of adequately, safely, and2 effectively monitoring these probation3 folks that -- people that find themselves4 on probation in a meaningful way. Is that5 true?6 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It's correct7 except that our probation officers are now8 handling about 223.9
Which is even10 worse.11 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It's12 ridiculous, absolutely.13
And it is14 equally true that it is so bad that the15 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, who is now16 hiring probation officers, is looking at17 our office as a likely recruitment pool18 because of the disparity, A, between the19 amount of pay; and, B, between the20 caseloads that they have to deal with, so21 much so that when they deal with probation22 off -- parolees in the Philadelphia area,23 there is a $7,000 annual differential that24 they get for servicing our population.25 43 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Is that true?2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Correct.3 That's correct, sir.4
All right.5 Having said all of that, we did a6 resolution for community courts, which7 some people call "problem-solving courts"8 and some people call a number of other9 types of courts.10 We believe, to that end, it can11 reduce the annual obligation to the12 taxpayers by finding solutions that are13 win/win scenarios, that keep people out of14 the State Road cycle.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I agree.16
And so, I'm17 thankful for you guys for at least18 thinking about that.19 Now, there's a couple of other20 things that I would like to go through.21 Currently, some people have22 dubbed the criminal justice system and a23 parole system as a castle model.24 (Timer bell rings.)25 44 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
And I like2 that analogy, that people come down from3 their various parts of the City to the4 castle to get justice distributed to them.5 And that is not necessarily the most6 efficient way to do that.7 And I'm going to end my first8 round of questioning on that particular9 note, but I will be back.10 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It -- you11 are correct that community courts are an12 incredibly exciting justice model that we13 are beginning to use that other14 jurisdictions are beginning to use, and15 we're beginning to cross-feed one another16 and learn how to do it better.17 And that has a great potential18 to keep our youngsters from spending19 semesters in jail instead of semesters in20 school.21
You're24 welcome.25 45 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 The Chair recognizes Councilman2 Greenlee.3
Thank you,4 Madam President.5 Good morning, everyone.6 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.7
First, I8 want to start out with somebody who knows9 the District Attorney pretty well and10 knows the Public Defender even better. We11 could have helped our budget if we had12 sold tickets to that debate.13 (Laughter.)14
I hope15 it's on YouTube or something.16 I want to touch on something17 that Councilman Jones also touched on with18 the -- Mr. Lawrence, in your testimony,19 you talk about the 101 vacant positions,20 many in juvenile and adult probations.21 And, Your Honor, you mentioned a22 number, but I want to be clear just a23 little bit more detail.24 How many in each of those,25 46 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 juvenile and adult, do you know offhand,2 are vacant -- have -- there's vacant3 positions?4
In Juvenile, the11 Juvenile Court Judges Commission, JCJC,12 which is the State agency that oversees13 juvenile delinquency --14
-- has16 suggested -- strongly suggested that we17 should have 220 juvenile probation18 officers.19
And just23 per caseload, how many is that that people24 have now? And how many should they have?25 47 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Caseloads are5 divided up, in many instances, according6 to need. If you put somebody in the7 general supervision area of adult8 probation, they will have upwards of 1509 cases. It is a model that lends us not to10 supervision but to basically record-11 keeping.12
We're not able to14 provide the level of supervision for these15 individuals that they require. Again,16 speaking very generally, a caseload of 7517 adults --18
-- would be much20 more reasonable.21 Now, there are model --22
I'd say 150, 175.25 48 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Yeah.4 Now, there are models that are5 being developed that suggest that a large6 number of probation officers can be on7 very, very, very limited supervision8 because they're going to behave9 themselves, they're not going to get in10 trouble, they're going to pay their fines11 and fees, they're going to do their12 probationary sentencing, and you're never13 going to hear from them again.14 On the other hand, there's a15 small percentage of offenders that you16 want to live at their house with them17 because you know these are bad people, and18 chances are, they're going to get in19 trouble again.20 So what we're going through now21 is an exercise to determine who are these22 low-risk people, and we're working with23 the University of Pennsylvania, the Jerry24 Lee School of Criminology, to look at25 49 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 setting up a model that allows us to do2 that so that we're not spending resources3 in an area where we really don't have to,4 at the expense of being able to provide a5 level of supervision that an individual6 really needs --7
-- so that they9 don't go out and harm somebody in the10 community.11
This a12 real general questions, but on that13 smaller percentage of the -- the dangerous14 people, if you will, how much of an impact15 would you say it has that there's -- given16 the caseload that these probation officers17 have now?18 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Well, let me19 give you one -- like a primary example.20
Sure.21 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: In one22 police district, they took the youngsters,23 the young violators, who were just, you24 know, disasters waiting to happen, and put25 50 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 this intensive -- one of these intensive2 monitoring systems in place. And in that3 police district, it reduced the number of4 shootings from 30 to 10 in just this past5 year.6
Mm-hmm.7 That's the kind of effect it can have.8 Last question. And, again, this9 is -- I know everything comes down to10 money. How much money are we talking11 about here -- maybe you don't have it12 right off hand but maybe you can get it to13 us -- to bring that caseload or that14 percentage down?15
Yeah, if18 you could get it. I know -- I'm not19 saying we have it out there, but, you know20 I --21
Councilman --22 (Indiscernible; parties talking23 over each other.)24
I would love to25 51 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 get back to where I was on October 14th --2
I can assure you7 that the number to get the supervision8 levels to where we want them to be will be9 much higher than --10
I just want15 to kind of an idea of the realm we're16 talking about.17
If you19 could get that, I'd appreciate it. Thank20 you.21 Thank you, Madam Chair.22
You're23 welcome.24 The Chair recognizes Councilman25 52 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Green.2
Thank you,3 Madam Chair.4 Good morning.5 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.6
Judge, David.7 I want to follow up a little bit8 more on basically the CJAB recommendations9 and ask you to sit down maybe with the10 Prison Commissioner and other people and11 see what you could do, from a policy12 perspective, that's legal, that would13 allow you to reduce the prison population.14 I think 70 percent of the people15 in our prisons are pretrial detainees.16 And could you describe who's responsible17 for a pretrial detainee if they're under18 house arrest or --19
-- on parole21 -- I mean, you know, released to their22 home versus if they're in our prison23 system, et cetera?24
Yeah.25 53 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Philadelphia is unique in that2 the electronic monitoring, house arrest3 function, if you will, is carried out by4 the court. In most jurisdictions, this a5 correctional function.6 However, many years ago, I7 believe it was the Rendell Administration8 asked us to assume this function and gave9 us some money at the time to do it, the10 reason being that, with our Pretrial11 Services Unit, the thinking was that we12 would be better able to perform this13 function than the prisons would.14 We currently have 770 people on15 electronic monitoring. Roughly 150 of16 them are pretrial, the rest are17 post-trial.18 The people who are out on19 pretrial electronic monitoring are done so20 under what's called "conditional release,"21 which is a set of guidelines that someone22 must meet in order to qualify for a23 conditional release.24 Pretrial Services is also25 54 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 responsible for conducting the home2 investigation, for picking the defendant3 up at the prison, transporting the4 defendant to his or her home, installation5 of the hardware, and then the actual6 monitoring of the defendant.7 So that's how the whole house8 arrest (indiscernible) works.9
So whose10 budget does that hit, the cost of the11 house arrest --12
-- the cost14 of the electronic monitoring, the cost of15 --16
Okay. So is18 70 percent a high number for a local19 prison system for pretrial detainees?20
I think it might21 be to the high side. I don't know it's22 that unusually high compared to other23 jurisdictions. But, for some reason,24 Pennsylvania and Philadelphia has a very25 55 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 high incarceration rate. And a lot of2 people have speculated as to the reasons3 that might be true.4
Was there any5 discussion at the CJAB by the DA that --6 or anybody else that DAs would, for7 non-violent pretrial detainees or for8 people who have violated some kind of9 probation or something like that, that10 are -- that, you know, where it's11 non-violent, that the DA would stop12 opposing, you know, electronic monitoring?13
You, know,15 there's a bunch of people involved here,16 and the only -- and the CJAB's purpose is17 to find efficiencies, or part of it, to18 make the system as a whole operate more19 efficiently and effectively.20 And what I think I would be very21 interested in is, to the extent it's22 possible, written guidelines that -- where23 people would agree about pretrial24 detainees, you know, what's non-violent.25 56 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 This kind of offense, you're going to get2 electronic monitoring automatically. The3 DA is not going to oppose it except, you4 know, under very unusual circumstances and5 et cetera, so that we could maybe have6 several thousand people not in prisons7 next year, before they've been8 adjudicated, but, you know, in their9 apartments --10
-- homes, et12 cetera, not getting -- we spend13 $75 million a year on medical for pretrial14 detainees when we don't have that15 responsibility if they're at home.16 So, you know, just talk about17 that and maybe how we can work out18 something where there's actually going to19 be savings created.20 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We are -- we21 are -- for -- we are unable to really22 promise you how that's going to play out23 because we don't know who the District24 Attorney is going to be in six months.25 57 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And there's an awful lot of policy2 decision that has to be made at the very3 top of the District Attorney's level that4 will affect that.5 It's not just the question of6 the non-violent offenders. It really --7 there aren't first-time non-violent8 offenders taking up county prison time.9 These people, if they are non-violent,10 it's 'cause they've got several cases, and11 there really aren't that many non-violent12 folks there.13 One of the problems that needs14 addressing, both on a policy level and a15 technology level, is that if you're16 arrested in any other county, by the time17 you get to a bail hearing, the arresting18 document spells out in detail what you've19 done, who you did it to, where you did it.20 And it gives the defense attorney enough21 information that they can go and see you22 in your little jail sell and go, "David,23 it's over."24 And so, an awful lot of their25 58 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 cases turn into pleas before any2 significant amount of jail time has been3 used up.4 (Timer bell rings.)5 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Our district6 attorney has always been very reluctant to7 make that information available right8 away.9 We're now working on a system10 where the discovery, which is created by11 the Police Department, is now coming to us12 on computers. And, hopefully, we will be13 able to work with the district attorneys14 and get them to understand that we need15 that information right away. A defense16 attorney cannot advise a client to plead17 guilty until they've seen that18 information, because if they do, they're19 looking at a malpractice suit.20 So we need -- you know, now that21 we've got that stuff available, it needs22 to be in everybody's hands within hours of23 the time counsel is on a case. And that24 would really make an enormous difference.25 59 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And if we could get that, it would -- we2 could be talking about reducing the daily3 census in thousands, not in hundreds.4
Thank5 you. Thank you.6 The Chair recognizes7 Councilwoman Sanchez.8
Thank9 you, Madam President.10 Good morning.11 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.12
The one13 opportunity that this financial crisis has14 offered us is an opportunity to really15 look at where the big numbers are in our16 budget.17 And as my Council colleague18 Councilman Jones alluded to, when you have19 25 percent of your budget, and growing,20 based on independently elected officials21 who don't -- who have filled silos around22 themselves and are not being aggressive23 and helping us reduce these costs, it is24 troubling for us in Council, going to25 60 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Councilman Goode's point, that at the end2 of the day, what doesn't happen in one3 place but happens in the other through4 overtime, through inefficiencies we have5 to cover, and we have to respond to the6 people of Philadelphia.7 And you made the point about8 we're going to have a DA in a few months.9 And I think it is incredibly important10 that, in this discussion, people realize11 that the DA's office, the judges they12 elect severely impact our budget to -- and13 there is not the same level of14 accountability as we have in our hands15 every single day.16 So, I think that this crisis has17 now given us an opportunity. And through18 the position of Mr. Gillison -- and I'm19 encouraged to hear the dialogue that's20 happening between the departments, but I21 can tell you that this is not happening22 fast enough. And I am yet not satisfied23 that the independently-elected officials24 who impact this part of our budget have25 61 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the same sense of urgency as we do to cut2 these costs, whether it's Prisons who3 continues to say, you know, there's all4 these efficiencies, whether it's moving5 our sentenced prisoners or -- we're6 talking about millions of dollars.7 And it is very difficult for us,8 given this time, to say we're going to9 continue to support these independent10 elected officials at the number they want,11 without them being more aggressive. So I12 want to start off more aggressive around13 what we -- some of us consider natural14 efficiencies that we haven't found.15 So while I'm encouraged that we16 have that dialogue, I just want you, the17 Courts, to understand that there has to be18 a higher level of urgency of getting that.19 And to that goes my request that20 there are some things -- Community Court,21 as Councilman Jones spoke, mental health22 court, DUI Court, the Mortgage Foreclosure23 Court -- that have shown promise in our24 ability to manage some of these issues,25 62 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 probation being one of them.2 What I'd like to see the Courts3 do for us is, if you can itemize the cost4 of all of these different units and the5 cost per participant, whether it's a6 criminal or a victim, I think it would7 help us identify what policy decisions we8 want to encourage the Courts to continue9 to pursue.10 In your testimony, you allude to11 the fact that if you don't get your12 budget, you're going to look at reductions13 in all of these areas. And that's very14 concerning to me because that's where15 we've shown promise in terms of16 efficiencies.17 So, in essence, what you've said18 to us -- and correct me if I'm wrong --19 that your Plan B is to eliminate the very20 things that are helping us derive21 efficiencies.22 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're23 absolutely right. And that's because, at24 the bottom, there are some things that I25 63 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 am constitutionally required to provide.2
Mm-hmm.3 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And those4 core functions mean that everything else5 is vulnerable, despite the fact that they6 are cost-efficient, humanitarian, decent,7 and constructive for all of us. But I8 can't do it without bodies.9 I mean, I'll tell you, I was on10 the verge of tears when I heard last night11 that we're going to have to limit the12 number of people that awe put into the DUI13 Treatment Court. And we haven't yet had14 to cut to the point where it's because15 we're taking court officers or judges out16 of there; it's because we can't provide17 the probation supervision that's the only18 thing that makes it have any point.19 And I can just see that20 happening with program after program. And21 I see it not just from a cost-savings22 point of view, about which you're23 absolutely right, but I also -- I just --24 it's so frustrating.25 64 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 We have developed incredibly2 good programs. We are nationwide leaders3 in a bunch of these things.4
So, for5 instance, in the case of DUI, in the DUI6 case sentencing, I'm hearing that DUI7 cases, for the weekenders, we're8 scheduling people 18 months out.9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're10 right.11
Does that12 make sense?13 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Of course14 not.15
Why can't16 we house-arrest those folks? They don't17 have licenses. Why are we bogging down18 our jails to where we're sentencing -- I19 committed a crime today. I get sentence20 six months from now because of all of21 these other bureaucracies that we have to22 go through, and then I'm sentenced to 1823 months later? I've forgotten why I was24 sentenced.25 65 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes,2 correct.3
You're absolutely4 right. And I would put you on electronic5 monitoring tomorrow if I had the staff to6 supervise you. I can't take any more7 people.8
And that9 goes to our point where there's a cost10 issue in this, and you can't ask this11 Council body to say we're going to give12 you more money if you're going to cut the13 very things that save us money in the14 other departments. It just makes sense.15 I mean, the buck stops here.16
Well, for every17 year that I've been before this Council, I18 have asked for additional funding for the19 Probation Department in particular.20 (Timer bell rings.)21
I haven't gotten22 any additional funding; meanwhile, my23 costs continue to escalate.24 And I don't blame the Council;25 66 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 it's just that there's just no money to be2 had. I would gladly enhance my pretrial3 electronic monitoring population if I had4 somebody to watch them. I don't have5 them.6
I would7 like to request, Madam Chair, if we could8 get the cost of all those units that we9 are national leaders on -- the DUI Court,10 the Mental Health Court, the Community11 Court. Because, you know, we can't12 approve a budget that cuts the very things13 that are helping us offset this budget,14 this 25 percent budget. That's not15 acceptable.16 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We will get17 you some numbers.18
Thank21 you.22 The Chair recognizes23 Councilwoman Blackwell.24
Thank25 67 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 you, Madam President.2 Good morning, Your Honor, Judge3 Demby, and Mr. Lawrence.4 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Good5 morning.6
We7 appreciate, frankly, the tone of these8 discussions. You know, I'm really9 concerned about Night Court, and we need10 probation officers expanded to junior high11 and more high schools, certainly not cut.12 And so, we're really concerned about the13 implications of these cuts, and we really14 support the Courts.15 The President talked about how16 we could do things more efficiently, but17 all of this talk also about having a18 process for non-violence offenders, that19 time has come as well.20 So we support all of those, and21 we appreciate your commitment, and thank22 you.23 PANEL MEMBERS: Thank you.24
The25 68 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.2
Thank you,3 Madam President.4 Good morning again.5 Mr. Lawrence, you said, in6 response to a question earlier, that7 prison overcrowding is due to crime; is8 that correct?9
How many new11 criminals are we projecting to have in12 Fiscal Year '10?13
How many new16 criminals are we expecting to have in17 Fiscal Year '10?18
New20 criminals, as in new offenders, versus21 recidivists.22
To be honest with23 you, Councilman, I can get you that24 number. I don't have it. There will be25 69 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 60 to 65,000 arrests made for both2 misdemeanor and felony offenses in FY '10.3
Can you give4 me the number of how many new offenders5 are projected for Fiscal Year '10 and how6 many are projected for Fiscal Year '09?7
Do you know14 off the top of your head whether that15 number varies per year, or how much it16 varies per year?17
I would imagine18 might it's fairly consistent. It might19 vary a bit with the police arrest rate.20
Do you know21 what percentage that accounts for in terms22 of prison population?23
So you don't25 70 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 know how many recidivists are in the2 prison population?3
I can assure you4 that there are few, if any, first-time5 non-violent offenders in the prison right6 now. People are in the prison --7
That wasn't8 the question. Do you know what percentage9 of the prison population is made up of10 recidivists?11
Do you know14 what percentage of the prison population15 is made up of non-violent recidivists?16
No, but I can17 probably find out, depending on how we18 define "violent."19 Let me just explain one of the20 dilemmas the Court faces. For the21 non-violent offender -- the drug user, not22 the seller, the user, prostitute -- they23 have a strong tendency not to appear in24 court. So while there may be someone in25 71 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 jail accused of possession of narcotics,2 which is a relatively minor offense, if3 they're in prison or jail, they probably4 have a history of failing to come to court5 time after time after time after time.6 And once you get into that7 cycle, out of necessity, the bail just8 goes up and up and up and up, because when9 we schedule the case, the police officer10 comes in. Maybe he's on vacation and11 we're paying him overtime, although one12 would hope not.13
You're14 actually accounting for a whole lot of15 money right there.16
I think what we21 have to do -- and I don't know that the22 Court can do it on its own, but I think as23 a system, we need several things to24 happen.25 72 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 We need a way to deal with the2 mentally ill offender that works. We have3 just last week asked PCCD for funding for4 a planning group to establish a Mental5 Health Court that works. We need to find6 reentry systems for the offenders that7 work in terms of employment.8 One of the biggest problems we9 face in getting people out of jail,10 particularly on house arrest, is finding a11 place for them to live. There's a severe12 problem with residential facilities for13 the offenders. Their families don't want14 them in the home, and they have no place15 to go.16
As a council,17 I think you've heard Council is fairly18 united in wanting to address all of those19 issues.20 We're dealing with one pot of21 money. So not only is it useful to know22 what percentage of the prison population23 is made of recidivists, but what the24 investment in recidivism should be in25 73 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 terms of reintegration and maybe diverting2 funds there and so forth.3 Or else, we are essentially,4 through your budget request, even for your5 recommendations of CJAB, we're essentially6 funding the same system year after year.7 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're8 correct.9
You're absolutely12 right, Councilman. I think we have to13 change the way we, as a system, do14 business, because what we're doing now15 isn't working very well.16
And primarily17 because we don't know how many new18 criminals there are. They may not make up19 a big percentage of the population, they20 may be non-violent offenders, and so,21 therefore, we have a recidivism problem.22 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: At bottom, I23 don't think that is the reason, sir. At24 bottom, I think it's because we are using25 74 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 a very old justice model that says: When2 somebody does something wrong, punish; if3 that doesn't work, punish more; if that's4 not working, punish some more.5 And despite the fact that that6 keeps not working, that's what our whole7 system is designed to do. That's the laws8 that we're given to work with. It's very9 troubling because all the other things --10
But Judge11 Demby, the point is more specifically that12 we keep throwing out numbers regarding13 non-violent offenders.14 (Timer bell rings.)15
You've16 somewhat contested those numbers without17 quantifying what those numbers actually18 are.19 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We will have20 those for you before the end of the day.21
You're24 welcome.25 75 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 The Chair recognizes Councilman2 Jones.3
Thanks again,4 Madam President.5 I'm glad we're evolving to a6 point where we are looking at these7 various courts and morphing them into a8 system of justice that isn't the castle9 model that I mentioned but more local,10 more holistic, if you would, and dealing11 with the systemic reasons people commit12 crime, and addressing them as opposed to a13 paper mill that we have currently, where14 we plea out things but don't solve the15 root causes of crime, nor do we address16 the restorative end of justice, which is17 that the person who got their car taken18 got their car back but they had to pay an19 additional insurance premium. That20 doesn't get addressed in all of this.21 So a model that deals with a22 Community Court or a opportunity court23 kind of does several things. One, it24 reduces the overhead that we have to25 76 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 administer justice. Two, it really solves2 some of the initial problems of the3 causes, root causes, of crime. And it4 takes care of the victim at the other end5 and assures them and society that whether6 it's a lot that gets cleaned, whether it's7 graffiti that gets removed, whether it's a8 alley that Councilman Tasco and driveways9 that Councilwoman Tasco are concerned10 about get addressed. So holistic justice11 is what we're talking about.12 And I think I'm glad that,13 whether it's CJAB, the Mayor, Council, all14 of us are moving with a mindset towards15 that.16 Let me get into some specifics,17 however, of some things that I think we18 need to address by way of cost reduction.19 One of the things that I, in20 peeling the layers of this onion to try to21 get to what justice truly is now and what22 it should be is, you can't ignore the23 whole probation aspect of this. It is a24 building block of justice that needs to be25 77 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 addressed.2 And one of the things that I'm3 concerned about, and I would like you to4 address, is this model of determining5 whether a probation person is a high-risk,6 a medium-risk, or a low-risk individual;7 thus, prescribing the treatment of8 probation, the frequency of probation, and9 the intensity of visits that we have.10 And I understand that we've11 gotten a model done now by a Dr...12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Sherman.13
... Sherman14 who kind of uses this model that he's15 developed, but I have some concerns about16 it, because in determining the priority,17 he exempts out whether or not the18 individual is using drugs or any type of19 intoxicant as to determine whether or not20 they're a high-risk or a low-risk.21 And it's my understanding,22 through studies that I've read, trying to23 catch up on this whole notion, that 8024 percent or more of the crimes that are25 78 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 committed, the person is on some type of2 intoxicant, whether it's alcohol or drugs.3 So I don't understand, conversely, how we4 determine the risk factor without5 considering their drug use.6 So could you help me with that?7 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: What I can8 tell you, because this is statistical9 stuff that exceeded the one course that I10 took in college, is that Dr. Sherman was11 able to capture the computer data from our12 system, beginning back in the '70s, so13 that they had hundreds of thousands of14 individuals to look at over a long period15 of time and put in all sorts of -- sorted16 it by all kinds of queries.17 And because of the sheer18 volume -- I mean, when they've started19 coming up with this idea, apparently, the20 computers weren't big enough or capable of21 crunching this kind of data. So it just22 took a long time not only to get enough23 cases but also to develop the computers24 that could handle them. And they included25 79 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 many, many, many factors.2 And if you are interested, I3 know that Dr. Sherman would love to come4 and talk --5
Tell Doc6 Sherman he can borrow my computer because7 it's concerning to me that we don't do8 that. If you look at what --9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I don't know10 that it's true that it doesn't include11 drug use, but --12
Well, my16 concern is that in the case of Ready,17 Willing and Able, which is a group that18 uses the population of the homeless, and19 these are primarily young to middle-aged20 men that are homeless.21 And one of their success ratios22 on people getting out of the homeless23 spiral is that they, every day, are using24 random drug tests to determine if the25 80 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 population is fulfilling their covenant to2 get into a self-sustaining matter or a3 situation and not of homelessness and use4 of jobs.5 The key of it is because they6 use that as a barometer of how a person is7 doing, I believe -- and I'm not a8 scientist or a social scientist, but9 because they use that determining factor,10 they're finding greater success.11 As we start to evolve towards12 community courts and starting to determine13 what level of priority a individual has,14 that whole variable of drug use has to be15 considered in that model to determine16 whether someone's on the right course or17 the wrong course.18 So I don't want to replicate a19 mistake by way of recidivism, by way of20 recurrence, and by way of risk standing21 based on not using the variable of drug22 use or alcohol use.23 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Intuitively,24 that makes sense to me --25 81 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 (Timer bell rings.)2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: -- as well3 as, like, going to Weight Watchers. If4 you don't go stand on the scale, I mean5 you don't -- you stop being --6
Correct.7 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: But I8 don't -- I really have to get Dr. Sherman9 to come and talk to you.10
And if I may,11 Councilman, the high-risk/low-risk model12 isn't designed to stop crime. Fifteen13 percent of the people on probation, no14 matter what kind of level of supervision15 you're going to give them, they're going16 to get arrested again.17 The model is designed to18 identify the high risk offender, defined19 as somebody who is going to commit a20 violent crime -- whether that's murder,21 attempted, armed robbery, rape, something22 along those lines. So it's not something23 that's designed to be the cure-all and24 be-all of societal ills.25 82 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
I got that --2 just because my time is up -- I would3 equate that to using credit-scoring on4 credit as opposed to a real person,5 looking at a person, and figuring out what6 their risk factor is.7 If you just plug in the8 variables and use the computer model,9 that's credit-scoring as it relates to10 probation. And I'm very leery of that and11 I just --12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And we will13 get Dr. Sherman to get you a presentation.14 I think you would --15
You're18 welcome.19 The Chair recognizes20 Councilwoman Miller.21
Thank you,22 thank you, Madam President.23 Good morning.24 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.25 83 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Hi. I2 just basically just have a few comments3 and a question.4 I support all that my colleagues5 have talked about this morning. The6 keeping in place what I call the specialty7 courts, such as the Gun Court or whatever,8 we must have those different types of9 programs and different types of courts10 available for our citizens.11 And certainly, the need to12 figure out a way that we can release13 non-violent prisoners from jail and put14 them on an electronic monitoring and hire15 more probation officers is certainly more16 cost-effective than keeping them17 incarcerated and, as my colleague18 Councilman Green pointed out, the 7519 million that we spend just in medical care20 alone.21 Also, I just want to talk about,22 what is the impact of overcharging on a23 daily prison sentence? If someone -- is24 someone more likely to have a higher bail25 84 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 versus a lower bail if it's a issue of2 overcharging?3 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Absolutely.4 What happens is that shortly5 after you're arrested, a bail commissioner6 looks at the charges and sets bail, for7 the most part, working off a grid that --8 where the seriousness of the crimes is the9 most important factor. I mean, none of us10 likes to see our pictures in the Daily11 News for most cases. And so they're very12 cautious about that.13 So I've never understood that.14 There's no reason why the prosecutors and15 the police can't -- whoever is doing it --16 at the moment, it's the District17 Attorney -- can't charge with what seems18 like the most reasonable thing as opposed19 to all possible charges.20 They can always amend later, but21 they just have chosen not to do that under22 this administration.23
I guess24 you think it's because they just want them25 85 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 to be held? And not everybody's budget is2 being cut, and I think that that's a big3 factor as to terms of the incarceration.4 Some of these people could be out if they5 weren't overcharged.6 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I agree, I7 agree.8
Okay.9 Your budget page is just a single page; it10 doesn't really tell us much. I was11 actually looking for -- I was looking for12 the page on your purchase of services,13 your contracts. And that's not, of14 course, in there. We only have this one15 page.16
Yeah, what we've17 been faced with is, we started the year18 with $114 million, and you do have that19 page for that number.20 Since July 1st, we've been asked21 to address budgets of $108 million,22 $92 million, $82 million, $99 million, and23 $104 million. It's been impossible for us24 to keep up with the budget detail under25 86 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 each of these scenarios.2
Okay. But3 you do have purchase of services, though,4 right?5
Okay.14 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I believe15 that about 85 percent of our budget is16 personnel.17
Okay. I18 think Councilwoman Maria Sanchez asked for19 a breakdown on your budget, all those20 specific details? All the other21 departments, we have specific details.22 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We can give23 you lots of detail.24
Okay. And25 87 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 can you also give me information -- you do2 have contracts, correct?3
Okay. And5 I'd like to have information on your6 contracts and the number of minorities and7 women businesses that you've contracted8 with.9
All right.11 Thank you. If you could just send it to12 the Chair. Thank you.13 Thank you, Madam President.14
You're15 welcome.16 The Chair now recognizes17 Councilman Green.18
Thank you,19 Madam Chair.20 So how many -- where I was21 getting to with my questioning when we22 finished last time was the resources that23 are in your budget for electronic24 monitoring and of things that could reduce25 88 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the prison population. And if we're going2 to go that route to save money, you know,3 whether we work on guidelines together at4 the CJAB or however you get to a place5 where everybody can agree that this is who6 we're going to release, we're going to7 have electronic monitoring, are you -- do8 you have under the current plan or, you9 know, or an alternative plan, do you have10 enough personnel in those departments to11 have several thousand people out on12 electronic monitoring?13
So that would15 save the prison system a tremendous amount16 of money.17
I think, you19 know, what we -- what I certainly would20 like to understand is how -- what21 resources you would need in order to22 accomplish that.23
And we can24 certainly provide that. We can provide25 89 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 you with costs per hundred, per 500,2 whatever the breakdown might be.3 Let me just also point out that4 the Court doesn't kind of sit benignly5 while people are entering the prison.6 Every day, the prison population is7 reviewed by our Pretrial Services Unit to8 check the new admissions to see if there's9 anybody that we can get out on the Court's10 Conditional Release Program. There are11 guidelines set as to how people qualify12 for that, and it depends on the nature of13 the offense, their history of appearing14 for court.15 So I want to assure Council that16 we just don't sit back, lock people up,17 and forget about them until their court18 date.19 EM is a very useful tool in a20 lot of cases. And given appropriate21 staffing levels and the ability to acquire22 more units, which run about $1300 apiece23 right now, you know, we can certainly24 expand our population of that.25 90 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: In addition2 to the cost of the units, which live a3 hard life -- you know, defendants cut them4 and run. And, as with all computer5 gadgets, they go on the fritz sometimes.6 In order for there to be any7 point to it, we need to have 24/7 people8 sitting there, monitoring the screens.9 And they need to let us know when somebody10 is two minutes' late, 10 minutes' late, an11 hour late. And they need to let us know12 in realtime so that we can send out13 warrant officers to get them.14 So it's the monitoring people15 and the warrant officers that make it16 difficult in budget crunch time to17 maintain that service.18
Okay. I19 understand Deputy Mayor Gillison testified20 before the State Senate Judiciary21 Committee in September regarding the need22 for increased funding by the State of23 adult probation and parole services. And,24 in fact, I think the State's supposed to25 91 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 pick up a specific percentage of that2 every year, under State law.3 Has there been -- I think it's4 70 percent. Has there been any progress5 with respect to this?6
No. I think7 we're at about 40 percent, Councilman.8 That's the State grant and aid, which is9 returned to the counties by the State10 Board of Probation and Parole.11
And under12 State law, aren't they required to provide13 you with 70 percent?14
Is there any17 consideration by the FJD of taking legal18 action to force the State to provide those19 resources to you?20
No, but I would21 defer to the City of Philadelphia. The22 FJD doesn't get the money; the City of23 Philadelphia gets reimbursed.24 So if the Law Department deemed25 92 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 there to be an action, they could take2 appropriate steps.3
Okay. So4 that would be up to the City Solicitor to5 try to enforce that State law.6
Okay.9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: To go back10 to your last point, if I may, with the11 current electronic monitoring units, which12 are in full use, there's a waiting list to13 get on them. It's costing about three14 quarters of a million dollars a year to15 run that program, based on where it is16 now.17
It's about20 800,000 in salaries. That doesn't include21 acquiring the monitors, that does not22 include fringe benefits, nor does it23 include the maintenance on the units,24 which the City kind of forgot about years25 93 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 ago, when they gave us that job.2
So that's a3 thousand dollars roughly per prisoner per4 year.5
Compared to8 what it costs for them to be in a prison,9 which is $30,000 a year?10
Okay. So15 could you just get back to us with16 information about what the average17 caseload per is in adult probation, et18 cetera.19
And also21 think about what resources we could22 provide you with respect to electronic23 monitoring?24
Absolutely. I'd25 94 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 be happy to do that.2
Okay. And3 has there ever been a discussion at CJAB4 about guidelines, when that tool would be5 used?6
Keeping in mind11 that the CJAB is relatively new, we spent12 some time organizing ourselves, and we're13 just getting the subgroups together such14 as the Prison Population Reduction15 Subcommittee, the Police Overtime16 Subcommittee. Those groups are just17 beginning to speak.18 (Timer bell rings.)19
So I'm sure that20 as our discussions move forward, we will21 be looking at that.22 There's always been discussions23 as to whether the bail guidelines should24 be reviewed.25 95 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Right.2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: What we did3 do already on that front is, just in the4 last week, developed working with other5 members of the CJAB, handouts in the Court6 so that the defense lawyers can get the7 information that the investigators need to8 set up electronic monitoring.9 I mean, there are a number of10 things. Like, number one, there's got to11 be somebody that's willing to have you in12 their home. Number two, they have to have13 a phone line that doesn't have call-14 waiting and forwarding and this and that.15 And they can't go into, I think, Section 816 housing. I mean, there's just a number of17 mechanical things that have to be worked18 out.19 And by getting the lawyers to do20 that in the courtroom, that, again, should21 speed up the process of when monitors are22 available.23
Okay.24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:25 96 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Councilman, I'm sorry. Your time is up.2
I thought I3 might sneak one in, Madam Chair. You4 caught me.5 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:6 Councilwoman Sanchez.7
Oh, I'll8 give my time to Councilman Green.9 Go ahead so you can finish up.10
Thank you14 Councilwoman and Madam Chair.15 So, frankly, I've briefly lost16 my train of thought and where I was going.17 (Laughter.)18
Discussions at19 CJAB about guidelines and things of that20 nature.21
So I'd be24 very interested in like -- I think where25 97 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Council is going is -- and I'm only --2 where I'm going -- well, I'm speaking for3 myself -- is if you can -- if there's a4 credible plan for reducing the population5 and that PICA will accept as a rationale6 as well as us, 'cause we have other people7 looking over our shoulder --8
-- then I10 think that, you know, alternative budgets11 are a reasonable thing for us to consider,12 and we'd just -- I'd like more detail and13 even a more specific plan about the DA's14 proposal and other proposals.15 If a major factor is this -- the16 fact that we could reduce the prison17 population as the President Judge said by,18 you know, I can't remember, several19 thousand, if we just got the information20 from the DA's Office to everybody within21 hours, if we can get a guideline written22 by the CJAB that people will agree to,23 that the DA will agree to do that, those24 sorts of things.25 98 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And I know there's not much time2 before the budget's passed. But, you3 know, that sounds like low-hanging fruit4 to me, to get the DA's Office to do that.5 And, you know, maybe it's6 something -- I'm personally going to ask7 the Solicitor whether or not that's8 something we can mandate by ordinance --9
The challenge we14 all face is that we aren't indeed15 independent elected officials. We, as a16 court, can't dictate prosecutorial policy.17 And, as some very famous Philadelphians18 said, she's a tough cookie. And we're not19 going to change Lynne Abraham's20 prosecutorial bent.21 What we have to do is find a way22 to take that into consideration, but, at23 the same time, deal with those things that24 we can in fact deal with. For instance,25 99 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the conditional release guidelines have2 the imprimatur of the District Attorney's3 Office.4
If they didn't,6 our judges would have a hard time7 releasing somebody under those --8
No, I9 understand what you're saying, but maybe10 we can entice the DA with, I don't know,11 $4 million.12 (Laughter.)13
Yeah.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yeah. You16 know, I think both you and Councilman17 Goode are correct, that in supporting this18 proposal of the District Attorney's, that19 we should come up with an action plan as20 to how we would make it viable for all of21 the players with specific numbers. There22 are some things that we can't predict23 because we're not in control of all of the24 decisions. But I must say that everybody25 100 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 at this point does seem to be working2 cooperatively together.3 And just a -- this isn't meant4 to -- or it wasn't meant to show up the5 Mayor's team. The numbers and the -- have6 been so unstable all the way through.7 Many of the things that we have done that8 are emptying out the prison and saving9 costs and raising revenue, which we have10 done substantial amounts of this year,11 really just went into effect in the last12 few months.13 And, you know, the first month14 that we began with the AVOPP and the ARC15 Programs to cut the time on these16 probation violators, we couldn't be sure17 how effective that was going to be,18 because there are so many ways for things19 to foul up.20 That is working well. We think21 it will expand in many ways. And we have22 other things that we're working on, on23 both the civil side and the criminal side24 that -- and we're moving in the right25 101 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 direction.2
The5 Chair recognizes Councilman Goode for a6 point of information.7
Thank you,8 Madam President.9 But the point is, President10 Judge, that this district attorney took a11 resolution to CJAB to have it approved, to12 spend money in exactly the same way. And13 this district attorney, which is only14 responsible for half of the next fiscal15 year, because there will be a new district16 attorney, according to your own testimony17 and response to questions, is holding us18 back in terms of saving money.19 So the question is, as we're20 considering this budget, and as you21 approved the resolution that came to CJAB,22 shouldn't CJAB and those members that will23 be members of CJAB for the full fiscal24 year be a little bit more forward-thinking25 102 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 and a little bit more aggressive in terms2 of how we approach this?3 Thank you, Madam President.4
I want to be5 very clear about something. That is: I6 think the FJD has done a tremendous job7 this year with respect to the savings8 you've already made, the increases in9 revenue, the implementation of technology.10 You've got examples like an electronic11 courtroom that -- you've got electronic12 filing now in the Prothonotary's Office,13 which has created tremendous efficiencies14 throughout the system.15 So, I mean, personally, I think16 you guys have done a tremendous job. I17 want to help you and support you even18 more. And I'm just asking for a little19 bit more detail so that we can, in fact,20 demonstrate that providing you with more21 resources makes sense in the big picture22 of all our public safety dollars.23
We appreciate24 those remarks, Councilman. And we've25 103 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 always considered ourselves to be a good2 governmental partner, and we will3 absolutely continue to do so.4
You're7 welcome.8 The Chair recognizes9 Councilwoman Brown.10
Thank you,11 Madam President.12 Good morning.13 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.14
I have a15 couple of follow-up, and then I want to16 take a look at the big picture.17 In response to one of Councilman18 Goode's questions, you said we are -- and19 let me be accurate here. How can you20 assure us -- you stated that you're fairly21 sure that in prison, there are no first22 time non-violent offenders.23 How can you be sure of that?24
I'm fairly25 104 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 certain of that because, as I said2 earlier, Councilwoman, we do go through3 every admission every day --4
-- to see who we6 can qualify for some sort of a release7 program.8
Okay. If12 you had to ID a city in the United States13 of America, much like Philadelphia,14 that -- where the best practices are in15 place and making a difference for the16 department that you represent, what city17 would that be?18
I think cross-19 judicial comparisons are very difficult.20
I am of the22 opinion -- and I've been to many court23 systems around the country -- that24 Philadelphia, despite our shortcomings, is25 105 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 among the best.2
So what3 grade, then, would you give Philadelphia,4 given the line of questioning that has5 happened here today?6
I would give us,7 given our resources, probably about a B or8 a B-plus. We can always do better, and9 we're always striving to do better.10 But our personnel and our judges11 are dedicated, they're hardworking,12 they're open minded. And I think we have13 one of the finer court systems you'll find14 in any major city.15
What16 reasons would you think there were that --17 let me find this article -- that Deputy18 Mayor for Public Safety, Deputy Mayor for19 Health and Opportunities, Prison20 Commissioner, Police Commissioner, and21 Defender Association of Philadelphia.22 From where you sit, why do you believe23 they voted not in favor of the resolution?24
Mrs. Greenlee's25 106 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 budget would be reduced where it's not2 being reduced under the current scenario.3 And I believe that the deputy mayors, the4 various commissioners have endorsed the5 budget presented by the Mayor, as well6 they should; it's their employer. And7 they want to see that budget move forward.8 Whereas, if that budget moves9 forward, I'm losing 200 employees. And I10 need to do what I can to make sure the11 Courts can continue to operate as12 effective as we possibly can.13
So do you14 believe that their reasoning was15 budget-related, not program-related, not16 philosophy-related, any of those others?17
Well, I think one18 is driven by the other. Look, the Mayor19 and his team have very, very difficult20 decisions to make. We're not in any way21 trying to understate the significance of22 the decisions those folks have to make.23 I think they feel that the big24 picture is addressed in the programs25 107 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 they're keeping, the programs they're not2 keeping, and the overall allocation of the3 budget.4 This is, as the Judge said, not5 a slap at the Mayor. This is a6 suggestion, it's only a recommendation,7 it's not binding, that perhaps we can look8 at the total Public Safety budget and see9 if we can move some dollars around so that10 we can retain the programs that the11 Council appears so anxious to retain.12 And so that I'm not contributing13 to the current economic crisis by putting14 people out of work.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I can16 guarantee that if we get the budget that17 the Mayor is giving us, that we will18 increase the cost to the Prison and the19 Police. There's no way that we can avoid20 it. We will be that that thinly spread21 that I can guarantee that when we come22 back here next year, that you'll see23 higher Prison costs and higher Police24 costs.25 108 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
The clock2 is running.3 What was your understanding of4 the request that all City departments who5 receive a penny from the Philadelphia city6 government come with numbers around MBE7 and WBE participation? And this a8 follow-up to Councilwoman Donna Reed9 Miller's question.10
And we're not a24 City department, either.25 109 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
The same2 applies. Do you collect any dollars from3 the City of Philadelphia?4
The same6 applies. Any department, agency,7 individual that gets a penny from the8 Philadelphia City government is required9 to come here and tell us what your MBE/WBE10 participation rates are, period.11 There are a number of others on12 Council that care about that, and the13 expectation is that everyone who comes14 here requesting dollars from us bring with15 them in the body of their testimony those16 numbers. That's the expectation.17 So we'll look forward to the18 receipt of that in the information that19 you'll be sending.20 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And we21 apologize. If we had had that directive,22 we would have certainly had it, and we'll23 get it to you very promptly.24
Thank you.25 110 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Last year, they were questions2 raised around the -- let me get to that3 later.4 Please speak to us about the5 nature of the relationship with DHS and6 activities principally within Family7 Court. Give us a brief update on what's8 happening with DHS, what's happening with9 families and young people in Family Court.10 If you could, speak specifically to the11 Truancy Prevention and the Parenting12 Project.13
If I may,14 Administrative Judge Dougherty, from the15 Family Court, is here. And I would defer16 to him to answer that questions.17
Terrific,18 terrific.19 (Witness comes forward.)20 (Timer bell rings.)21
Good22 morning, Your Honor.23 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Good24 afternoon, Madam President. Good morning,25 111 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Councilwoman.2
Good3 morning, Judge?4 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: How are you,5 Councilwoman?6
Good7 morning.8 I simply wanted an update on the9 Truancy Prevention and the Parenting10 Project and how and if they might be11 impacted with the budget, as currently12 presented.13 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: The answer is14 yes.15
Excuse16 me, Your Honor. You're going to have to17 identify yourself for the record.18 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: For the19 record, Kevin Dougherty, Administrative20 Judge of the Family Court Division, First21 Judicial District. I apologize.22
Thank23 you.24 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Councilwoman,25 112 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the answer is very simple: Yes, it could2 be impacted.3 But I have worked hand in glove4 with Deputy Commissioner Ann Marie Ambrose5 to make sure that those two particular6 practices are not. I should have brought7 my numbers.8 Last year, we increased our9 truancy. And we were able to -- with10 additional funding, we were able to meet11 not the needs of 9,000 children to 24,00012 children pass through our programs.13 As you may be aware, and if I14 could give you a quick 101, way our15 Truancy Program is, the Philadelphia16 School District will provide to17 Philadelphia's Family Court and my18 personnel, we will filter a list of19 individuals who are truant from school20 eight or more days.21
Mm-hmm.22 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: We then list23 those cases in eight cluster courts, which24 are usually high schools throughout the25 113 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Philadelphia area.2
I see.3 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: We have4 decided, in the revamping, with the5 increased monies, to change the way we did6 business.7 It would be essential to put a8 DHS representative -- and we've called9 that person a facilitator. They are the10 first contact that the family will have11 entering into the truancy system. It's at12 that time we tried to quickly collect the13 social history and the needs of the child14 so that we can refer the children to some15 community -- and family members to16 community-based services. They will then17 have a subsequent appearance back at the18 cluster courtroom.19 Should the child and/or family20 not be compliant, the next level would be21 a Family Court representative, called the22 master, who will add a little more teeth23 or cause agencies to work.24
Okay.25 114 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Hypothetically2 speaking, we should be able to resolve the3 issues there.4 In those more serious scenarios,5 they come to 18th and Vine, and we have an6 individual, another master, who is more7 empowered, will make the determination as8 a last resort before we have the case9 assigned to a judge. And I have one judge10 currently assigned, Judge Ann Butcher.11 The question and concern is to12 make sure that we are the gatekeeper so13 that our children don't enter our14 dependent system. As we know, truancy is,15 in fact, a symptom of a greater ill.16
It's the17 first signal.18 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Absolutely.19 So we are moving in a very20 forward, progressive manner to address the21 needs first by community base.22 Interestingly, I did my23 evaluation, and I believe last year, we24 only had about 1800 cases out of 24,00025 115 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 come to Judge Butcher. And what I was2 trying to determine was the level or the3 number of those children that ended up in4 our end dependent system.5
Mm-hmm.6 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I actually was7 on the phone with Deputy Mayor Schwarz as8 well as Commissioner Ambrose two days ago,9 discussing how we can create some type of10 respite, which we could address,11 particularly mental health needs, of12 individuals who are manifesting as truant.13
Right.14 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: But, really,15 there's other social conditions which are16 causing them to come to us, requiring17 placement.18 And placement is the final19 option. It's not healthy or beneficial20 for the family or the child. Sometimes,21 it's the only solution.22
Mm-hmm.23 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: But we are24 front-loading the system, really trying to25 116 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 work on it. And I have been consistently2 working with the Department to make sure3 to maintain whatever cost-savings we can4 to have our program existing without5 losing the integrity --6
Okay.7 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: -- of the8 process.9 Does that answer your question?10
Yes. It11 does.12 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: The Parenting13 Program, different story.14 The Parenting Program is to at15 least listen to the parent who's16 frustrated with the child. And we have17 implemented certain additional programs.18 We've brought a practice in as a result of19 the initiative of Justice Max Baer from20 the Supreme Court to introduce family21 group decision-making and family group22 conferencing.23 In essence, we, the judges, and24 the social workers, we have agreed that we25 117 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 shouldn't be the ultimate sayer, the say2 in a family. What we want is a family3 strength, family-focused decision-making4 process. And we've defined "family" as5 anyone who has a space in his or her heart6 for that child. And, in essence, we want7 everyone to come together.8 Far too often, families are9 coming before us. And many times, they're10 single-parent mothers who are angry with11 the father 'cause the father's out of the12 photo, but that doesn't mean Father's13 mother isn't a loving potential resource.14 And far too often, before this practice,15 we were only -- I should say, as the16 judges, we're only as good as the17 information we receive.18 So if we're not being informed19 that there's an extended family readily20 available, then the alternative is21 placement, and we have to stop that.22 So this family group decision-23 making, this family conferencing, we've24 brought in trainers to train both our25 118 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 staffs -- DHS and Family Court -- so that2 we can engage the family and then3 ultimately make the decision so it's Aunt4 Molly who's going to take the child to5 school and make sure that the ten-year-old6 is at the bus stop and Uncle Billy is7 going to be home, so that if Mom has to8 work to maintain support, we have a9 collective family-focused, family-10 strength-based order.11 Then we incorporate that and try12 to divert it from our court process. And,13 God forbid, it ultimately has to come back14 in; we still have so revisit it, tweak the15 family group decision-making agreement and16 try to -- hopefully, our ultimate goal is17 to incorporate that as the judicial order.18 So, in essence, we're taking the19 stigma away that this individual wearing a20 black robe is ultimately controlling the21 life of the child and family. It's much22 easier for us to have a buy-in.23
A buy-in.24 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: A buy-in. I25 119 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 believe it's necessary for the family to2 be willing to accept.3 It's much easier for me to say,4 "Madam Councilwoman, can we go to lunch?"5 as opposed to me saying, "Councilman,6 you're going with me."7
Indeed.11 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: We have to12 take human nature and common courtesy and13 manners to the level of dealing with our14 families.15
Well, I16 thank you for your testimony, and I'm17 pleased to hear that the relationship and18 working relationship with the Department19 of Human Services is strong.20 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: It's never21 been better.22
Thank you23 very much.24 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: May I be25 120 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 excused?2
Thank you,6 Madam Chair.7 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:8 Councilwoman Brown, are you finished?9
I was12 so absorbed in what the Judge was saying13 that I didn't hear it.14 (Laughter.)15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:16 Councilman Jones?17
Thank you,18 Madam President.19 President Judge Dougherty might20 want to come back up again. I have a21 question.22 (Judge Dougherty returns to23 witness table.)24
I have a25 121 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 plea.2 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Thanks for the3 promotion, but my title (inaudible). I'm4 just administrative.5
Well, that's6 Freudian. She's going to move up, you're7 going to move in. I mean, that's how it's8 (indiscernible).9 I have a plea first and then a10 question second.11 The plea is to the group that12 out in front of Broad and Arch, as people13 go into the Probation Office, as they go14 into Community Courts, sometimes the lines15 are around the corner. And often, it is16 in inclement weather.17 And I watch some of the people18 that have to stand out there because of19 their court obligations, standing there20 dutifully in the rain, in the snow. And21 it seems to me that we could get them some22 temporary tent, shelter, something that23 will allow them the dignity of waiting24 outside in some degree of comfort.25 122 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 If you ride by there in the2 mornings -- I hate lines like that, and it3 just doesn't give the participants in4 those programs the dignity that all of us5 deserve.6 And if they have to stand out7 there for upwards of 15 minutes to a half8 hour to a hour, we really need to get them9 some temporary shelter, particularly in10 inclement weather.11 And that is a plea from me, that12 we should not be tightening our belts or13 sharpening our pencils so much that we14 can't afford people common decency.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I'll look16 into that.17
I appreciate18 that.19 The second one is a question.20 And I'm perplexed and hopefully, I'll get21 this right. Recommendation 75 that has22 come from the State, that is a edict that23 says that when there is child support that24 is deemed uncollectible, that we're wiping25 123 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 it from our books, as from the active2 rolls.3 I have had not one, not ten, but4 over twenty-five kinds of infuriated5 parents -- and not just women, but men as6 well -- that have shouldered the burden of7 child-rearing, have often gone through8 this process with the glimmer of hope that9 someday there would be a day of reckoning,10 and that, in fact, they would receive some11 kind of support from the absentee parent12 only to find out that at the end of the13 day, someone said that because these14 accounts might be deemed uncollectible,15 that they're given the noncustodial parent16 a do-over, if you would. And that's the17 way they couched it.18 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I understand.19
I want to get20 some clarification --21 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Okay. Let me22 give you the layperson's understanding of23 it. And then I have my supervising judge,24 Margaret Murphy, here as well as Joe25 124 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 (indiscernible), the director that deals2 specifically with the 4D issues who can3 explain to you or probably provide you4 better detail, not at this hearing, 'cause5 it's somewhat complicated as to the6 funding stream and our ability to draw7 down federal funds through incentives.8 But, in essence, the concept is,9 with the funding stream, we're able to10 pull so much money down from the feds for11 every dollar we collect. And Philadelphia12 is being hampered from collecting13 sufficient monies because there are14 certain men and/or women who don't have an15 attachable wage.16 Recommendation 75 was passed as17 a way of suspending those payments, never18 wiping them out. Should there become19 viable information that an individual is20 working above the table or has an21 attachable wage from which we can gather22 or collection award in a civil suit or is23 fortunate enough to win the lotto, then24 that matter will be resurrected so that we25 125 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 can accumulate or gather those proceeds to2 pay any arrearages.3 So, in essence, no, that's a4 misconception that we're just wiping it5 clean because Dad went unground on his6 employment and chooses not to support his7 children.8
And I9 understand your sentiment, but let me give10 you my constituents' sentiment.11 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Mm-hmm.12
It's that13 they spent all this time doing the right14 thing, raising their child.15 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Absolutely.16
And that17 these individuals, some of them, have18 under-the-books jobs, construction19 companies, pinky diamonds. And these are20 the quotes I've gotten.21 And because of our inability to22 verify that source of income, they are23 being told that we can't collect it.24 We're missing out on some money from the25 126 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 federal government. The onus is now on2 you to find proof that this individual3 works. And it just seems to me to be4 wrong. And wait a minute, let me finish5 my point.6 Because now, you're saying that7 if you find this out, if you do the8 detective work and find this out for us9 and then take another day off from your10 job to come back out and file this, then11 maybe we'll try to collect it again.12 And the point seams to me that13 we should up our game, as they say on the14 streets, that we should be the ones trying15 to help the custodial parent out to find16 these individuals that have neglected17 their responsibility.18 And I view this as such an19 important issue because all of the things20 you see later on in your courts and the21 things you see later on in your courts22 sometimes can be traced back to the fact23 that this individual wasn't given the24 proper parental support, but, as25 127 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 important, monetary support as they were2 growing up.3 So the extra tutoring that they4 should have had to help them to get hooked5 on phonics they don't get, and this and6 that and the other as we go along, the7 recreational activities during the summer8 they don't get.9 And I'm saying that10 Recommendation 75, I understand, is our11 need to get draw-down funds. And I12 understand more clearly than ever in this13 budget crisis. But somehow, some way, it14 seems to be a burden on single parents15 that have done the right thing and now are16 being told, "Oh, well. This is a17 uncollectible account."18 (Timer bell rings.)19
And that's20 just what they say to me, and I'm passing21 that frustration on to you.22 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: And I receive23 many, many letters from very similarly24 situated parents.25 128 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And then I also receive the2 letters converse to that, for the3 individual who's incarcerated. There's a4 Supreme Court case called the Yerkes5 Decision, which indicates that just6 because you're incarcerated, it doesn't7 mean you don't have the inability to pay.8 And monies are constantly charged and you9 can't pay 'cause you're in jail.10 And then once you come out of11 jail, we're going to smack you with a12 request to come to court and hold you in13 contempt and send you back to jail, 'cause14 you haven't paid.15
Mm-hmm.16 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: And then the17 question is: In the balance of fairness,18 who benefits? The child will always19 suffer. And our focus is, and will always20 be, children first, but we're trying to21 balance the issues of the two, because22 with all due respect, I have to be23 concerned about the individual who's been24 incarcerated and did his or her time and25 129 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 has paid their debt to society.2 And they should not be burdened3 because an order exists that we all know4 is unenforceable and cannot pay. And the5 only remedy is enforcement, which equals6 incarceration.7
Your Honor, I8 disagree respectfully, because you know9 what? All that time that they were10 incarcerated -- and I'm a pro-ex-offender,11 let's do the right thing for that group of12 people, but there's somebody out doing the13 right thing every day, taking over that14 burden, because the victims of that crime15 or whatever that was committed is also16 that child.17 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I agree.18
And I say19 that not because of my child that I grew,20 that I paid for, but because my child has21 to marry a child. And that in a situation22 they're put at a deficit in life because23 we didn't get it right by way of the24 rights of the incarcerated over the child.25 130 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: And I'm just2 sharing you that there's always a converse3 opinion. And the beauty of our system is4 that you have to have intellectual debate5 which creates statute or legislation.6
I just wanted7 that on the record so that you understood8 that I --9 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: And I'm on the10 record supporting every position you have.11 It's the fair thing to do.12 But you also have to understand13 that many times, people want to hold a14 support obligation against one's custody.15 And the two should never meet.16
That's not --17 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I'm just18 sharing. And many people feel that you19 have to pay or I'm not letting you see the20 child. And, again, it's human nature.21 But the reality is, we have to22 be adults and we have to deal with the23 only and only focus being the child.24
I'm going to25 131 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 let my president go --2 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I'm just --3 wait a minute.4 (Indiscernible; parties talking5 over each other.)6
One last7 comment before you go.8 All legislation, in my opinion,9 is a work in progress. And sometimes, we10 have to perform operations, surgery on11 legislation, but we should not do it with12 a butcher knife. And I say that -- and13 maybe we should tweak the part about the14 incarceration, not holding them in15 custody. But for sure, we shouldn't put16 the onus and burden of collection on the17 custodial parent that is doing the right18 thing.19 We have to figure a medium to20 make it doable, collectible, but fair to21 all parties. And that's just my point.22 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Fair enough.23
Thank you,24 Madam President.25 132 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: May I be2 excused a second time?3
Thank4 you.5 The Chair recognizes6 Councilwoman Brown.7
Thank you.8 You indicated that the grade you9 would give your department is a B. Cite10 for me, then, those areas where you11 believe you would want to see improvement,12 to make it a A-plus.13
The biggest area14 all courts need to improve in is public15 trust and confidence. Across the country,16 the courts have suffered from, I think, a17 misunderstanding of how the courts18 operate. In some areas, there's a19 mistrust of how the courts operate.20 And I think it is incumbent upon21 us to make our case to the public and to22 conduct our proceedings in a manner that23 engenders public trust and confidence in24 the institution of the court. It's a very25 133 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 important link in our society, and the2 people whom we serve need to have every3 confidence and every trust in what we do.4 Now, keeping in mind that nobody5 comes to us because they want to come to6 us. There's a loser in every case. And7 I'm not talking about that; I'm talking8 about the broader perspective of how the9 public perceives the courts.10 And I think we have to engage in11 activities that are geared towards12 educating the public and exposing them to13 the good work that we do. So I think we14 can do a better job in that area.15
We can always18 work better, should I say? I think we19 work well with our justice partners, I20 really do. We have a good working21 relationship with the DA, the Police, the22 Prisons, the Defender, but I think we can23 always improve on how we're addressing24 specific issues.25 134 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Right now, the hot-button issue2 is prison overcrowding.3
It's a very5 significant issue. And while we're doing6 things -- and I think we're doing good7 things -- I think there are probably some8 more good things that we can do in that9 area.10
How's your11 division of government doing with respect12 to promotional opportunities for people of13 color and women?14
Promotional20 opportunities in areas of management and21 supervision for people of color and women.22
I think it's of23 the utmost importance. We -- I constantly24 survey our workforce, how we're doing25 135 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 business, what opportunities we're2 offering to people to put them in a3 position where they're able to compete for4 promotions.5 We have a very active management6 development program for our employees,7 where we offer any number of activities8 geared to designing or enhancing their9 professional education, their professional10 experiences. We encourage membership in11 the various professional organizations.12 So that, you know, I believe13 that we are very sensitive to the needs of14 people of color and the female workforce.15
Okay. I16 raise that because a couple of years ago,17 there were a lot of concerns brought to18 the attention of members of Council in19 that area. And I was curious to know if20 and how that's been addressed.21 On of your testimony, you22 cite the possible elimination of the23 surprised noncustodial parental24 visitation. Has that been raised already25 136 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 by another Councilmember?2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: No.3
Okay.5 Please discuss the impact of this cut.6 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Every other7 jurisdiction makes noncustodial parents8 visit their kids at the local police9 station.10
You said11 every other jurisdiction?12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes, which,13 in my mind, is about the nastiest scenario14 you can imagine.15
Yeah, I16 would agree.17 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: But18 depending on how far down our personnel19 roster is reduced, you know, we are20 talking about -- you know, when you do21 this, you have to have people there to22 monitor it.23
Mm-hmm.24 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I mean, most25 137 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 people work out their arrangements to2 visit their kids, and they take them back3 and forth, and everybody behaves like4 grownups.5 The ones who are doing their6 visitation at 1801 Vine Street or in other7 places at the police station are doing it8 because they can't behave like grownups.9
I see.10 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And because11 they are likely to get into fights with12 one another.13
Sure.14 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And so we15 have to have people there not only to16 monitor the visitation, to break up the17 fights, to record it all. They now get18 that information by the next morning.19 That information is on the computer so20 that the judge who is handling that case21 has got it, so that if the judge needs to22 get in there and intervene, they can do23 that.24 It's not a system that should be25 138 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 changed. But, again, it's a function of2 bodies.3
Has there4 ever been a time when your division of5 government has done a third-party6 self-evaluation, self-assessment, looking7 at standard operating procedures and all8 these --9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.10
And the11 last time that was was when?12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It's never13 done of the whole court system.14 (Timer bell rings.)15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: There are16 operation such as the -- oh, what are the17 folks down in (indiscernible).18
National Center.19 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: National20 Center for State Courts, who have come in.21 And they consistently describe our civil22 court operation as the best in the23 country. It's the gold standard. Other24 people come here to learn it.25 139 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
I see.2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: There have3 been, over time, studies within the -- of4 the criminal court operation, but those5 tend to even be more narrow prison6 population, things like that, so there are7 studies of that kind.8 I just wanted to do one more9 thing to your query about things we can10 improve on.11
Please.12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Court13 systems and the whole legal industry were14 among the very last to computerize, and15 I'm not sure whether it's because lawyers16 are genetically incompatible of learning17 to use computers.18 But when I was a very young19 lawyer, I can remember that the older20 lawyers would go, "Oh, no. That's a21 girl's job" because it was typing. And22 who knows.23 But we were just very slow in24 getting into that. And I think we're not25 140 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 up to 21st century standards.2 I watch what my daughter's3 corporation does, and I'm envious. And we4 are working really hard to catch up. And5 as we do that, it will enable us to save6 money, but more importantly, to mine data7 so that we can use it to improve in other8 ways.9
And that10 has been one of Councilman Bill Green's11 platform concerns. So where are you in12 terms of setting benchmarks so that you13 ultimately move towards the use of14 technology 100 percent?15
As an example, on16 Friday, Berks County and Chester County17 are coming to Philadelphia to observe our18 civil e-filing system. It has caught the19 attention of the Supreme Court and the20 Administrative Office of Pennsylvania21 Courts as a possible benchmark for the22 entire Commonwealth that people want to23 emulate.24
Mm-hmm.25 141 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
And we're very2 proud of that.3 We are enhancing -- and these4 are kind of like small applications in the5 larger sense, but it will give you some6 ideas of things that we're very interested7 in.8 Each year, we spend $1.6 million9 in