COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania5 Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 10:20 a.m. - - - Res. 090226 - Approval of revised Five-Year8 Financial Plan covering FY 2010 through 2014. Bill 090212 - FY '10-'15 Capital Program. Bill 090213 - FY '10 Capital Budget. Bill 090214 - FY '10 Operating Budget. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Anna C. Verna, Chair Marian B. Tasco, Co-Chair15 Jannie C. Blackwell Blondell Reynolds-Brown16 Darrell L. Clarke Wilson W. Goode, Jr.17 Bill Green William K. Greenlee18 Curtis Jones, Jr. James F. Kenney19 Donna Reed Miller Frank Rizzo20 Maria Quiñones Sanchez - - -22 V A R A L L O Incorporated23 Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 60024 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.267025 2 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Good2 morning, everyone. This is a continued3 public hearing of the Committee of the4 Whole.5 Our first department to testify6 this morning...7 MR. McPHERSON: ... is the First8 Judicial District.9 (Witnesses come forward.)10
-- and members of15 the Committee of the Whole. I'm David16 Lawrence. I am the Court Administrator17 for the First Judicial District of18 Pennsylvania. And with me today is the19 President Judge of the Court of Common20 Pleas and Chair of the Administrative21 Governing Board, Judge Pam Demby; and22 Kevin Cross, Deputy Court Administrator23 for Financial Services. We're here today24 to submit testimony in support of the25 3 4/29/09 COMM. 7 The Court has a history and8 traditional of being a responsible partner9 in government for the City Council and the10 Mayor. 7 million. In the spirit22 of cooperation, we immediately did so and23 imposed a hiring freeze, identified24 economies in Budget Classes 200, 300, and25 4 4/29/09 COMM. 5 million, as was appropriated25 5 4/29/09 COMM. 5. 5 percent reduction in our actual5 cost to the City. 5 million the Court pays for7 indigent defense, which is, in fact, a8 responsibility of the City. 15 The Court has been proactive in16 its efforts to increase revenues which17 accrue to the City. 23 Additionally, we've imposed an24 electronic filing fee and credit card25 6 4/29/09 COMM. 14 The only place to absorb this15 cost is in Personnel. 20 The Court has recently21 implemented changes in its case flow22 management practices, which has had an23 impact on the prison population by24 reducing the length of time persons spend25 7 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 in jail. 25 8 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 We are aware that City Council2 recently held hearings on the possible3 expansion of Community Court. If we are4 faced with a budget of $99 million, we5 will be forced to seriously consider6 discontinuing our current Community Court7 as well as other successful problem-8 solving courts, such as Treatment Court,9 DUI Treatment Court, and the Mortgage10 Foreclosure Court, as well as the11 elimination of supervised noncustodial12 parent visitation. 6 million. We feel we can23 reach this figure without the need for24 layoffs and the possibility of closing for25 9 4/29/09 COMM. 9 We are happy to entertain any10 questions that Council might have. 12
Thank13 you very much, Mr. Lawrence. And it's14 quite obvious that the Courts are15 certainly trying to cooperate.16
It's19 quite obvious.20 In your testimony, you said that21 the Courts may have to close two days a22 month?23
It is25 10 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 being rumored that the Courts are2 considering furloughs. Is that true? and3 can you tell us how this would affect the4 operations of the Courts?5
Certainly. In6 order to meet the $7.3 million deficit7 we're facing, we have two choices or a8 combination of those choices. One is the9 layoff of 209 people, or the closing of10 courts for 22 days during the year.11 What we're looking at now is12 some combination of that in the form of13 reducing the number of layoffs and doing14 some number of closures, which we'll call15 "days of furlough"; they'll be unpaid16 leave days for our employees.17 What that does is, it will18 decrease the delay we experience in the19 disposition of cases. When we increase20 delay, the inverse impact is an increase21 in the prison population. The result is22 people staying on the street longer,23 before they have their day in court. And,24 similarly, people who may be not guilty25 11 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 stay in jail longer, until they can get2 out of jail. People will remain in foster3 care longer because we're unable to4 conduct as many termination-of-parental-5 rights hearings.6 When the justice system closes7 down, the obvious end-result is delay.8 And justice delayed is justice denied.9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: May I add to10 that, Madam President? We can close --11
Your12 Honor, I'm sorry. Would you just13 introduce yourself for the record.14 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I'm sorry.15 President Judge Pamela Demby of the Court16 of Common Pleas.17 We can close the courtrooms, and18 that will have the consequences that19 Mr. Lawrence has spelled out for us, but20 there are other things that we can't21 close; or if we do, the results are also22 catastrophic but perhaps not quite so23 visible.24 Because of the hiring freeze and25 12 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the continuing decline in our personnel2 roster, we already have over 4,0003 parolees or probationers who are, in4 essence, receiving almost no supervision5 at all because we don't have enough bodies6 to do meaningful supervision. And on top7 of that, we had to make a decision8 yesterday to cap DUI Treatment Court at9 (indiscernible).10 Now, 50 percent of DUI homicides11 involve a driver who's a repeat DUI12 defendant. And these are the people that13 we're not going to not be able to14 supervise. So, when we furlough -- close15 down the courts, that kind of situation16 becomes even more acute.17
Thank18 you, Your Honor.19 I think one of the more serious20 problems that we're facing is that 7721 percent of those incarcerated are22 detainees. I think if we were to address23 that problem, it would really be very,24 very helpful.25 13 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Has the Court -- you know, for2 years, we've been talking about the Court,3 the DA, whoever else is involved getting4 together to find some avenue whereby this5 problem could be resolved.6 What is happening? Is there any7 improvement in what we could be doing to8 resolve the problem?9
I'm happy to10 answer yes.11 We have recently implemented12 several programs designed to decrease the13 detention or population in the14 Philadelphia County prisons. One deals15 with the manner in which we deal with16 persons held on violations of probation.17 Prior to the implementation of18 this program, which just began roughly six19 weeks ago, a person would be incarcerated20 on a violation of probation, and the judge21 whose sentence they were serving may no22 longer be in the criminal courts; they may23 be in the family courts, they could be on24 the civil courts. And because we couldn't25 14 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 bring judges back and forth and shuttle2 them every day between buildings, we would3 wait until the judge had a number of4 violations to make it worthwhile to hold5 the hearing. That could be 30 days, that6 could be 45 days. Now those cases are7 being heard before one judge within 308 days, Joan Brown, in order to expedite the9 disposition of that violation probation.10 The other program -- that11 program we call is AVOPP, and for the12 stenographer, that's A-V-O-P-P.13 The other program we're working14 on is called the ARC Program; it's an15 accelerated review program. And what16 happens here is that many, many, many17 people in the Philadelphia County prisons18 are not there because of a single case;19 they're there for a new arrest. A new20 arrest might have caused one, two, three21 or four probation violations to occur.22 And what that would end up in is, the23 defendant would have to go see one, two,24 three, or four judges to get all of their25 15 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 cases resolved.2 When cases come into the Court3 of Common Pleas, at the arraignment stage,4 now, we're not looking at the case itself;5 we're looking at the person, and we're6 trying to determine what exactly the7 situation is with this person, and can8 there be a resolution to it that's going9 to deal with all of the cases at one time.10 We're doing that with the cooperation of11 the District Attorney, the cooperation of12 the Defender Association. And what we're13 beginning to see is a noticeable drop by14 several hundred in the prison population.15 I'm also very pleased to say16 that as we speak today, the first video17 teleconferencing dispositions are18 occurring in the IP Drug Treatment Program19 at the prison. We hope to do at least ten20 guilty pleas today. That will save21 anywhere from 30 to 60 days off the length22 of detention for these individuals.23 So we are looking at not only24 the cooperative practices of the various25 16 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 and justice partners but making use of2 available technology to address the prison3 population problem.4 As most of you know, I think the5 population has dropped recently by several6 hundred, and I would like to think it's in7 part due to the programs we have initiated8 as well as the transfer of several groups9 of inmates to the State institutions.10 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I would11 merely like to add -- this is President12 Judge Demby again -- that the video13 interactive capability in all of the14 county prisons, as soon as we can get it15 fully implemented, is going to be very,16 very important if we do indeed face a17 pandemic. We'd be looking at prisons,18 which is where we bring the least healthy19 of our citizens, in close quarters, with20 devastating possible effects.21 So we are very much pushing to22 get that fully installed as fast as23 possible so that we can handle as many24 things without, number one, bringing sick25 17 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 people to the Criminal Justice Center or2 keeping them in jail any longer than we3 have to.4
And5 what is the status of the installation of6 the videos?7
That is a work in8 progress. We're working hand in hand with9 the Prison Commissioner. We have video10 capability at CFCF.11
I'm sorry.16 And, unfortunately, we have to17 bring everybody from the other county18 institutions to CFCF to have their video19 hearing. What we want to do is get video20 installations in all of the various county21 prisons so that we eliminate the need for22 that prisoner movement.23 I would think within 60 days, it24 should be up and running.25 18 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
That's2 wonderful.3 Can you explain what's the4 mission of the Criminal Justice Advisory5 Board? I know that there's an article in6 today's paper.7
Yes, there was an8 article in today's paper.9 (Laughter.)10
The Criminal13 Justice Advisory Board is an organization14 that was -- we were encouraged to form by15 the PCDC, which is the Pennsylvania16 Commission on Crime and Delinquency, which17 handles a lot of the funding that comes18 through the states to the local justice19 systems.20 You may recall, prior to having21 a CJAB, we had a Criminal Justice22 Coordinating Commission, and we've had23 that for years. That was a loose24 association with no real bylaws of the25 19 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 justice partners who would gather every2 now and then to talk about the same3 problems that we've been talking about for4 the past 15 or 20 years, and not a whole5 lot came out of that group, other than6 friendly discussion.7 The CJAB is a more structured8 group. It has voting members, non-voting9 members, there are bylaws. And the goal10 of this CJAB is to address, in a11 cooperative fashion, any number of12 problems that face the criminal justice13 system.14 The participants include the15 Police, the Prisons, the Court, the DA,16 the Defender, representatives from the17 Administration, Judge Demby and Everett18 Gillison, Co-chair. And although we do19 have our disagreements at times, we think20 it is an excellent vehicle to address the21 issues we're facing.22 And I point to the two23 programs -- the three programs that I24 referenced earlier as evidence of the type25 20 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 of product that the CJAB can produce.2
That's3 wonderful.4 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I would just5 like to say that we must be pretty hot6 stuff if we managed to take some newspaper7 space away from the freshman Democratic8 senator from Pennsylvania.9 (Laughter.)10
How11 many members are on the board?12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Of the CJAB?13
It's 14 or 15.17 Our vote was 9 to 5, so that would make it18 14.19 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Right.20
Could21 you send me a list of who is on that22 board, please, so that we don't have to23 take time now?24 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Certainly.25 21 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
It was2 reported again in today's paper that the3 Advisory Board proposed a spending plan4 different than the one proposed by the5 Mayor. Could you give us a detailed6 explanation, if you will, of the revised7 --8
I'd be happy to9 provide with you a copy of the resolution.10 The resolution was introduced by11 District Attorney Abraham, and what it did12 was, take the $936 million that has been13 designated as Public Safety dollars by the14 Mayor and make some reallocations to15 spread the pain, I'll say, a little more16 equally among the various institutions.17 The Police, I believe, were18 asked to take a very, very minor hit of19 less than 3/10ths of a percent. The20 Prisons were asked -- the Prisons got a21 small increase; we're asking the Prisons22 to forego that small increase.23
Excuse24 me. The small increase was how much?25 22 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 because I think, from what I read, it was2 being proposed that it -- the prisons be3 reduced by $9 million? Would you consider4 that a small increase?5
No. The6 information that we received at CJAB7 yesterday is that the Mayor's budget8 called for $248.8 million.9
And, to be honest12 with you, I was not the architect of this.13
I can get you the15 answers.16 I think the biggest difference17 is that the level of cuts that the Courts18 and the DA would encounter were reduced,19 and that the Defender Association was20 asked to take a small reduction in order21 to make up some of that.22 There was a, I'll call it, a23 "spirited discussion" between District24 Attorney Abraham and the Chief of the25 23 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Defenders, Mrs. Greenlee.2
Oh, I3 would love to have been there.4 (Laughter.)5 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I watched6 from under my desk.7 (Laughter.)8
And we realize9 this not a binding resolution. It's a10 recommendation that perhaps the Council11 would take a look at possibly realigning12 the way the cuts for Public Safety were13 administered to see if there isn't14 something that could be done so that we15 don't have to lay off 209 people and the16 DA doesn't have to get rid of a hundred17 prosecutors.18 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Let me just19 add in there that there are some very good20 reasons why we supported the District21 Attorney's proposal.22 In asking the Police to take a23 small cut, we're not asking that there be24 fewer police officers. We are working25 24 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 very hard with Commissioner Ramsey to2 reduce police overtime, which is a -- can3 be an astonishing number.4 We are -- we've already5 described the efforts we're taking to pull6 down the prison population. And to the7 steps that that's effective, that will8 allow them to reduce -- to take a slightly9 reduced budget, without impacting10 services.11 In the original proposal of the12 Mayor, the DA was taking almost a 2513 percent cut. There's no criminal14 courtroom that we can run without a15 district attorney in the room.16 I don't need a public defender17 in every courtroom. There are a number of18 services that the defenders provide --19 and, granted, they provide them very, very20 well -- but in a time when we may not be21 able to afford Cadillacs, we can use22 appointed counsel who are also screened23 and competent, and do that for a lower24 cost certainly for an interim of a couple25 25 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 of years.2 So, in doing this, we really3 honestly believe that those justice4 partners who would be taking a decrease5 would get the support that they need to be6 able to continue to function at the levels7 we expect.8
I was9 trying to listen to what you were saying.10 I was interrupted for a moment. When you11 spoke about the police overtime, were you12 talking about the court overtime?13 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes, ma'am.14
I know15 I sound like a broken record, and many,16 many moons ago -- many moons ago -- I17 worked in the District Attorney's Office,18 and I was in charge of listing cases.19 And we did not have computers at20 the time, and I know I'm aging myself. I21 used to go through each and every bill of22 indictment. And, invariably, you would23 find Officer Verna, and Officer Greenlee24 working together. I would call the25 26 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Roundhouse: Are Officers Greenlee and2 Verna available the week of June 22nd?3 Will they be on vacation? And if I was4 told they would not be, then I would5 automatically list all of their cases in6 the same courtroom on the same day.7 I don't understand. Today, we8 have computers; all you'd have to do is9 push a button. And I don't know why you10 wouldn't get information that Officers11 Greenlee and Verna's cases wouldn't come12 up, and you'd list them in the same13 courtroom, rather than have all of these14 other police officers in a courtroom just15 sitting around, waiting, hoping that their16 case would be called.17 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Well, in the18 five or six years since you were working19 at the DA's Office, there's been some20 changes.21
No,22 it's seven, it's seven.23 (Laughter.)24 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: There have25 27 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 been some institutional changes.2 One of them is that there is now3 a provision in the police -- the FOP4 contract which allows an officer to take a5 vacation day any day between May and6 October.7 So, when we use the police8 liaison, or whoever we can get from the9 DA's Office, to assure us that the officer10 will, indeed, be available on July 15th or11 whatever, and the officer says he'll be12 available, we go about our merry way. The13 officer then puts in for a vacation day,14 shows up and testifies anyway, but15 collects extra.16
I'll17 tell you, your testimony has been very18 encouraging today. It really has been.19 The Chair recognizes Councilman20 Goode.21
Thank you,22 Madam President.23 Good morning, President Judge24 Demby and Mr. Lawrence and Mr. Cross.25 28 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.2
Mr. Lawrence,3 in your testimony, you said that the4 Criminal Justice Advisory Board was,5 quote/unquote, encouraged to be created by6 the State to monitor State funding coming7 to the City?8
That's correct.9 Basically, the PCDC,10 Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and11 Delinquency, requires a county to have a12 criminal justice advisory board to receive13 monies flowing through that organization.14
I think it would17 be at the -- I would say Everett Gillison18 took the lead in establishing the CJAB.19
And in the20 creation of the CJAB, what was the mission21 beyond what was encouraged by the PCDC?22
Well, the mission23 as I stated, is to work cooperatively to24 resolve the problems that face the25 29 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 criminal justice system while, at the same2 time, recognizing and preserving the3 independence of the various members of the4 board.5
And so you6 said the varying interests of the7 independent members of the board.8
So do you10 think it's appropriate that the CJAB11 determine the budget appropriations for12 other members of the CJAB?13
We think that the14 board does have the authority to do that15 in the bylaws. We also stress that it's a16 recommendation. We're not determining17 policy.18
But you said19 you were encouraged to make20 recommendations or to look at state21 funding. At what point were you22 encouraged to look at City funding?23
I'm sorry. I24 couldn't hear you.25 30 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
At what point2 were you encouraged to look at City3 funding? Is that in the bylaws?4
No. That was8 done at the initiation of the District9 Attorney's Office.10
Who else, as14 members of the CJAB, worked on that15 resolution?16
As far as I know,17 just the District Attorney. We were18 presented with it.19
And at what20 point were you presented with it, at the21 meeting when it was voted on in?22
No. It was23 circulated prior to the meeting to all the24 members.25 31 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Okay. And2 so, every member got a chance to review3 it?4
Okay. And6 who at this table here as voting7 authority?8
Both you and11 Judge Demby have voting authority?12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.13
Can you tell17 me what the impact of a $9 million cut to18 the prison system would be?19
Can you tell21 me what the impact of a $2 million cut to22 the Defender Association would be?23
They've indicated24 that they may to shed some people.25 32 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Can you tell6 me what the $200,000 cut to the Clerk of7 Quarter Sessions would mean?8
No. I can tell9 you what the cut of $15 million in the10 Courts will be.11
But you can't12 tell me how those other agencies would be13 impacted.14
So why not16 just request more money for the Court17 system and District Attorney's Office as18 opposed to cutting those agencies if you19 have not studied what those cuts will mean20 to the criminal justice system?21
The issue,22 Councilman, is, let's try and be equitable23 here. We feel that the Court --24
No, we've25 33 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 already -- the issue for Council is to try2 to be equatable, the issue for the Mayor3 is to try to be equatable in setting up a4 budget and approving the budget.5 We've already established that6 it may not be the mission of the CJAB to7 be equitable in terms of local funding;8 that may not be your charge and mission or9 responsibility --10
Particularly13 if you have not studied those budgets and14 know how those agencies will be impacted.15
That's correct.16 I can't predict what the impact would be17 on the Prisons.18 What I can tell you is that the19 system, under the current setup, will20 spend in excess of $40 million on indigent21 defense and $24 million on prosecution.22
Can you tell23 me what the primary reason for prison24 overcrowding is?25 34 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Okay. I'm6 glad you said that.7 You said that you've achieved,8 through some of your own actions and9 initiatives, reducing the prison10 population by a few hundred.11
Do you13 actually believe that that's an ambitious14 goal?15
How much do21 you plan on decreasing the prison22 population in Fiscal Year '10 from the23 money you're planning on taking from other24 agencies?25 35 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
I don't know that2 you can key it to the money we're, quote,3 taking from other agencies.4
Well,5 actually, I can because you decided to6 take on a budgetary role of Council and7 shift dollars. And so, I'm saying, for8 the money you take from other agencies,9 what can we expect in terms of a decrease10 the prison population in Fiscal Year '10?11
We will decrease12 the prison population as much as we can we13 possibly can, given the constraints under14 which we operate.15
Deputy Mayor16 Gillison, in previous budget testimony,17 said he'd like to see the prison18 population decrease by 3,000. Over what19 period of time do you believe that can be20 done?21
I can tell you24 that by our own actions, we can do at25 36 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 least 500.2
You can do3 500.4 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: This year.5 This coming year, sir.6
I do, given the9 nature of the prison population. It's a10 very complex population. People are in11 there for multiple, multiple cases. And12 you have to treat one individually. You13 have to triage each individual in the14 prison to find out how they can best be15 dealt with, whether it's drug addiction,16 mental illness, homelessness.17 There's a myriad reasons that18 people are in jail, and you have to treat19 each one as an individual and address20 their needs --21 (Timer bell rings.)22
-- while, at the23 same time, doing what you have to do from24 a public safety standpoint.25 37 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
And do you2 think you can accomplish that effectively3 by cutting the prison's budget by4 $9 million?5
I don't know. I10 don't know how the Commissioner would11 address a $9 million cut.12
No, I'm13 asking you, can you accomplish what you14 just mentioned while, at the same time,15 cutting the prison's budget by $9 million?16
Okay. Thank18 you, Madam President.19 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:20 Councilman Jones.21
Thank you,22 Madam President.23 Good morning.24 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.25 38 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Let me ask a2 series of yes or no questions just to get3 my questions on the right track.4 Does the Courts, Prisons, and5 the Police Department, the DA's Office,6 many of the members of CJAB constitute7 approximately 25 percent of our operating8 budget?9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.10
Of that11 process, do we have currently somewhere in12 the neighborhood of, arguably, 10,00013 people in incarceration that have been14 through the criminal justice system, and15 then, at the other end, some of them that16 are being supervised through our parole17 systems?18 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: No.19
We don't have20 10,000 people up at State Road?21 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We have22 consistently -- since we began23 implementing the programs that we24 described earlier, which were not25 39 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 available for calculation, I think, when2 the Mayor made the original calculations,3 it is now consistently at or below 9400,4 so it's --5
That's a --9 that's progress.10 Is it true that we have11 approximately 1250 or so non-violent12 offenders up on State Road? Roughly about13 a thousand?14
It's possible.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: That's16 possible. It depends on how you define17 "non-violent."18
Okay. And19 out of that, that cost us approximately20 what, 43 million and up a year?21 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes.22
And I'm just23 rounding these numbers out.24 So if those things are true,25 40 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 then it is important for me and, I2 believe, the City of Philadelphia that,3 CJAB be in a room, talking about how to4 create efficiencies within their5 respective departments, crossing6 artificial silos and barriers that7 historically have kept one department from8 working with another department.9 Historically, the Police10 Department gets aggressive on the streets.11 And then it means it has a impact on the12 prison population, which has an impact on13 the court system, which has a impact on14 the parole system. And thank God that,15 finally, they are in a room, meeting, with16 an objective towards being more efficient17 at their operation.18 Is that a rough guesstimate as19 to the purpose of CJAB?20 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're21 absolutely right.22 One of the most active23 subcommittees is the Prison Overcrowding24 Subcommittee, which, in addition to the25 41 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 CJAB meetings, which always spend2 significant time on the overcrowding3 issue, Subcommittee gets down into the4 dirt and works out details and comes up5 with initiatives and is very -- we are6 going to see very significant prison7 population declines.8 I'm sorry that I -- because we9 don't yet even have all of the video10 cameras online, I can't give Councilman11 Goode a number --12
Councilman13 Goode can ask his questions. He is very14 capable of asking his questions. I just15 want to focus on mine.16 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I apologize.17
And so, if18 those things are true, then cutting your19 budget now might be at cross purposes to20 do that.21 You have probation officers that22 are supposed to be somewhere around 4023 people per caseload, that are doing close24 to 70 per caseload, which defeats the25 42 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 purpose of adequately, safely, and2 effectively monitoring these probation3 folks that -- people that find themselves4 on probation in a meaningful way. Is that5 true?6 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It's correct7 except that our probation officers are now8 handling about 223.9
Which is even10 worse.11 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It's12 ridiculous, absolutely.13
And it is14 equally true that it is so bad that the15 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, who is now16 hiring probation officers, is looking at17 our office as a likely recruitment pool18 because of the disparity, A, between the19 amount of pay; and, B, between the20 caseloads that they have to deal with, so21 much so that when they deal with probation22 off -- parolees in the Philadelphia area,23 there is a $7,000 annual differential that24 they get for servicing our population.25 43 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Is that true?2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Correct.3 That's correct, sir.4
All right.5 Having said all of that, we did a6 resolution for community courts, which7 some people call "problem-solving courts"8 and some people call a number of other9 types of courts.10 We believe, to that end, it can11 reduce the annual obligation to the12 taxpayers by finding solutions that are13 win/win scenarios, that keep people out of14 the State Road cycle.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I agree.16
And so, I'm17 thankful for you guys for at least18 thinking about that.19 Now, there's a couple of other20 things that I would like to go through.21 Currently, some people have22 dubbed the criminal justice system and a23 parole system as a castle model.24 (Timer bell rings.)25 44 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
And I like2 that analogy, that people come down from3 their various parts of the City to the4 castle to get justice distributed to them.5 And that is not necessarily the most6 efficient way to do that.7 And I'm going to end my first8 round of questioning on that particular9 note, but I will be back.10 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: It -- you11 are correct that community courts are an12 incredibly exciting justice model that we13 are beginning to use that other14 jurisdictions are beginning to use, and15 we're beginning to cross-feed one another16 and learn how to do it better.17 And that has a great potential18 to keep our youngsters from spending19 semesters in jail instead of semesters in20 school.21
You're24 welcome.25 45 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 The Chair recognizes Councilman2 Greenlee.3
Thank you,4 Madam President.5 Good morning, everyone.6 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.7
First, I8 want to start out with somebody who knows9 the District Attorney pretty well and10 knows the Public Defender even better. We11 could have helped our budget if we had12 sold tickets to that debate.13 (Laughter.)14
I hope15 it's on YouTube or something.16 I want to touch on something17 that Councilman Jones also touched on with18 the -- Mr. Lawrence, in your testimony,19 you talk about the 101 vacant positions,20 many in juvenile and adult probations.21 And, Your Honor, you mentioned a22 number, but I want to be clear just a23 little bit more detail.24 How many in each of those,25 46 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 juvenile and adult, do you know offhand,2 are vacant -- have -- there's vacant3 positions?4
In Juvenile, the11 Juvenile Court Judges Commission, JCJC,12 which is the State agency that oversees13 juvenile delinquency --14
-- has16 suggested -- strongly suggested that we17 should have 220 juvenile probation18 officers.19
And just23 per caseload, how many is that that people24 have now? And how many should they have?25 47 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Caseloads are5 divided up, in many instances, according6 to need. If you put somebody in the7 general supervision area of adult8 probation, they will have upwards of 1509 cases. It is a model that lends us not to10 supervision but to basically record-11 keeping.12
We're not able to14 provide the level of supervision for these15 individuals that they require. Again,16 speaking very generally, a caseload of 7517 adults --18
-- would be much20 more reasonable.21 Now, there are model --22
I'd say 150, 175.25 48 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Yeah.4 Now, there are models that are5 being developed that suggest that a large6 number of probation officers can be on7 very, very, very limited supervision8 because they're going to behave9 themselves, they're not going to get in10 trouble, they're going to pay their fines11 and fees, they're going to do their12 probationary sentencing, and you're never13 going to hear from them again.14 On the other hand, there's a15 small percentage of offenders that you16 want to live at their house with them17 because you know these are bad people, and18 chances are, they're going to get in19 trouble again.20 So what we're going through now21 is an exercise to determine who are these22 low-risk people, and we're working with23 the University of Pennsylvania, the Jerry24 Lee School of Criminology, to look at25 49 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 setting up a model that allows us to do2 that so that we're not spending resources3 in an area where we really don't have to,4 at the expense of being able to provide a5 level of supervision that an individual6 really needs --7
-- so that they9 don't go out and harm somebody in the10 community.11
This a12 real general questions, but on that13 smaller percentage of the -- the dangerous14 people, if you will, how much of an impact15 would you say it has that there's -- given16 the caseload that these probation officers17 have now?18 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Well, let me19 give you one -- like a primary example.20
Sure.21 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: In one22 police district, they took the youngsters,23 the young violators, who were just, you24 know, disasters waiting to happen, and put25 50 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 this intensive -- one of these intensive2 monitoring systems in place. And in that3 police district, it reduced the number of4 shootings from 30 to 10 in just this past5 year.6
Mm-hmm.7 That's the kind of effect it can have.8 Last question. And, again, this9 is -- I know everything comes down to10 money. How much money are we talking11 about here -- maybe you don't have it12 right off hand but maybe you can get it to13 us -- to bring that caseload or that14 percentage down?15
Yeah, if18 you could get it. I know -- I'm not19 saying we have it out there, but, you know20 I --21
Councilman --22 (Indiscernible; parties talking23 over each other.)24
I would love to25 51 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 get back to where I was on October 14th --2
I can assure you7 that the number to get the supervision8 levels to where we want them to be will be9 much higher than --10
I just want15 to kind of an idea of the realm we're16 talking about.17
If you19 could get that, I'd appreciate it. Thank20 you.21 Thank you, Madam Chair.22
You're23 welcome.24 The Chair recognizes Councilman25 52 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Green.2
Thank you,3 Madam Chair.4 Good morning.5 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.6
Judge, David.7 I want to follow up a little bit8 more on basically the CJAB recommendations9 and ask you to sit down maybe with the10 Prison Commissioner and other people and11 see what you could do, from a policy12 perspective, that's legal, that would13 allow you to reduce the prison population.14 I think 70 percent of the people15 in our prisons are pretrial detainees.16 And could you describe who's responsible17 for a pretrial detainee if they're under18 house arrest or --19
-- on parole21 -- I mean, you know, released to their22 home versus if they're in our prison23 system, et cetera?24
Yeah.25 53 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Philadelphia is unique in that2 the electronic monitoring, house arrest3 function, if you will, is carried out by4 the court. In most jurisdictions, this a5 correctional function.6 However, many years ago, I7 believe it was the Rendell Administration8 asked us to assume this function and gave9 us some money at the time to do it, the10 reason being that, with our Pretrial11 Services Unit, the thinking was that we12 would be better able to perform this13 function than the prisons would.14 We currently have 770 people on15 electronic monitoring. Roughly 150 of16 them are pretrial, the rest are17 post-trial.18 The people who are out on19 pretrial electronic monitoring are done so20 under what's called "conditional release,"21 which is a set of guidelines that someone22 must meet in order to qualify for a23 conditional release.24 Pretrial Services is also25 54 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 responsible for conducting the home2 investigation, for picking the defendant3 up at the prison, transporting the4 defendant to his or her home, installation5 of the hardware, and then the actual6 monitoring of the defendant.7 So that's how the whole house8 arrest (indiscernible) works.9
So whose10 budget does that hit, the cost of the11 house arrest --12
-- the cost14 of the electronic monitoring, the cost of15 --16
Okay. So is18 70 percent a high number for a local19 prison system for pretrial detainees?20
I think it might21 be to the high side. I don't know it's22 that unusually high compared to other23 jurisdictions. But, for some reason,24 Pennsylvania and Philadelphia has a very25 55 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 high incarceration rate. And a lot of2 people have speculated as to the reasons3 that might be true.4
Was there any5 discussion at the CJAB by the DA that --6 or anybody else that DAs would, for7 non-violent pretrial detainees or for8 people who have violated some kind of9 probation or something like that, that10 are -- that, you know, where it's11 non-violent, that the DA would stop12 opposing, you know, electronic monitoring?13
You, know,15 there's a bunch of people involved here,16 and the only -- and the CJAB's purpose is17 to find efficiencies, or part of it, to18 make the system as a whole operate more19 efficiently and effectively.20 And what I think I would be very21 interested in is, to the extent it's22 possible, written guidelines that -- where23 people would agree about pretrial24 detainees, you know, what's non-violent.25 56 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 This kind of offense, you're going to get2 electronic monitoring automatically. The3 DA is not going to oppose it except, you4 know, under very unusual circumstances and5 et cetera, so that we could maybe have6 several thousand people not in prisons7 next year, before they've been8 adjudicated, but, you know, in their9 apartments --10
-- homes, et12 cetera, not getting -- we spend13 $75 million a year on medical for pretrial14 detainees when we don't have that15 responsibility if they're at home.16 So, you know, just talk about17 that and maybe how we can work out18 something where there's actually going to19 be savings created.20 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We are -- we21 are -- for -- we are unable to really22 promise you how that's going to play out23 because we don't know who the District24 Attorney is going to be in six months.25 57 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And there's an awful lot of policy2 decision that has to be made at the very3 top of the District Attorney's level that4 will affect that.5 It's not just the question of6 the non-violent offenders. It really --7 there aren't first-time non-violent8 offenders taking up county prison time.9 These people, if they are non-violent,10 it's 'cause they've got several cases, and11 there really aren't that many non-violent12 folks there.13 One of the problems that needs14 addressing, both on a policy level and a15 technology level, is that if you're16 arrested in any other county, by the time17 you get to a bail hearing, the arresting18 document spells out in detail what you've19 done, who you did it to, where you did it.20 And it gives the defense attorney enough21 information that they can go and see you22 in your little jail sell and go, "David,23 it's over."24 And so, an awful lot of their25 58 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 cases turn into pleas before any2 significant amount of jail time has been3 used up.4 (Timer bell rings.)5 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Our district6 attorney has always been very reluctant to7 make that information available right8 away.9 We're now working on a system10 where the discovery, which is created by11 the Police Department, is now coming to us12 on computers. And, hopefully, we will be13 able to work with the district attorneys14 and get them to understand that we need15 that information right away. A defense16 attorney cannot advise a client to plead17 guilty until they've seen that18 information, because if they do, they're19 looking at a malpractice suit.20 So we need -- you know, now that21 we've got that stuff available, it needs22 to be in everybody's hands within hours of23 the time counsel is on a case. And that24 would really make an enormous difference.25 59 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And if we could get that, it would -- we2 could be talking about reducing the daily3 census in thousands, not in hundreds.4
Thank5 you. Thank you.6 The Chair recognizes7 Councilwoman Sanchez.8
Thank9 you, Madam President.10 Good morning.11 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.12
The one13 opportunity that this financial crisis has14 offered us is an opportunity to really15 look at where the big numbers are in our16 budget.17 And as my Council colleague18 Councilman Jones alluded to, when you have19 25 percent of your budget, and growing,20 based on independently elected officials21 who don't -- who have filled silos around22 themselves and are not being aggressive23 and helping us reduce these costs, it is24 troubling for us in Council, going to25 60 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Councilman Goode's point, that at the end2 of the day, what doesn't happen in one3 place but happens in the other through4 overtime, through inefficiencies we have5 to cover, and we have to respond to the6 people of Philadelphia.7 And you made the point about8 we're going to have a DA in a few months.9 And I think it is incredibly important10 that, in this discussion, people realize11 that the DA's office, the judges they12 elect severely impact our budget to -- and13 there is not the same level of14 accountability as we have in our hands15 every single day.16 So, I think that this crisis has17 now given us an opportunity. And through18 the position of Mr. Gillison -- and I'm19 encouraged to hear the dialogue that's20 happening between the departments, but I21 can tell you that this is not happening22 fast enough. And I am yet not satisfied23 that the independently-elected officials24 who impact this part of our budget have25 61 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the same sense of urgency as we do to cut2 these costs, whether it's Prisons who3 continues to say, you know, there's all4 these efficiencies, whether it's moving5 our sentenced prisoners or -- we're6 talking about millions of dollars.7 And it is very difficult for us,8 given this time, to say we're going to9 continue to support these independent10 elected officials at the number they want,11 without them being more aggressive. So I12 want to start off more aggressive around13 what we -- some of us consider natural14 efficiencies that we haven't found.15 So while I'm encouraged that we16 have that dialogue, I just want you, the17 Courts, to understand that there has to be18 a higher level of urgency of getting that.19 And to that goes my request that20 there are some things -- Community Court,21 as Councilman Jones spoke, mental health22 court, DUI Court, the Mortgage Foreclosure23 Court -- that have shown promise in our24 ability to manage some of these issues,25 62 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 probation being one of them.2 What I'd like to see the Courts3 do for us is, if you can itemize the cost4 of all of these different units and the5 cost per participant, whether it's a6 criminal or a victim, I think it would7 help us identify what policy decisions we8 want to encourage the Courts to continue9 to pursue.10 In your testimony, you allude to11 the fact that if you don't get your12 budget, you're going to look at reductions13 in all of these areas. And that's very14 concerning to me because that's where15 we've shown promise in terms of16 efficiencies.17 So, in essence, what you've said18 to us -- and correct me if I'm wrong --19 that your Plan B is to eliminate the very20 things that are helping us derive21 efficiencies.22 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're23 absolutely right. And that's because, at24 the bottom, there are some things that I25 63 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 am constitutionally required to provide.2
Mm-hmm.3 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And those4 core functions mean that everything else5 is vulnerable, despite the fact that they6 are cost-efficient, humanitarian, decent,7 and constructive for all of us. But I8 can't do it without bodies.9 I mean, I'll tell you, I was on10 the verge of tears when I heard last night11 that we're going to have to limit the12 number of people that awe put into the DUI13 Treatment Court. And we haven't yet had14 to cut to the point where it's because15 we're taking court officers or judges out16 of there; it's because we can't provide17 the probation supervision that's the only18 thing that makes it have any point.19 And I can just see that20 happening with program after program. And21 I see it not just from a cost-savings22 point of view, about which you're23 absolutely right, but I also -- I just --24 it's so frustrating.25 64 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 We have developed incredibly2 good programs. We are nationwide leaders3 in a bunch of these things.4
So, for5 instance, in the case of DUI, in the DUI6 case sentencing, I'm hearing that DUI7 cases, for the weekenders, we're8 scheduling people 18 months out.9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're10 right.11