Does that12 make sense?13 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Of course14 not.15
Why can't16 we house-arrest those folks? They don't17 have licenses. Why are we bogging down18 our jails to where we're sentencing -- I19 committed a crime today. I get sentence20 six months from now because of all of21 these other bureaucracies that we have to22 go through, and then I'm sentenced to 1823 months later? I've forgotten why I was24 sentenced.25 65 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yes,2 correct.3
You're absolutely4 right. And I would put you on electronic5 monitoring tomorrow if I had the staff to6 supervise you. I can't take any more7 people.8
And that9 goes to our point where there's a cost10 issue in this, and you can't ask this11 Council body to say we're going to give12 you more money if you're going to cut the13 very things that save us money in the14 other departments. It just makes sense.15 I mean, the buck stops here.16
Well, for every17 year that I've been before this Council, I18 have asked for additional funding for the19 Probation Department in particular.20 (Timer bell rings.)21
I haven't gotten22 any additional funding; meanwhile, my23 costs continue to escalate.24 And I don't blame the Council;25 66 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 it's just that there's just no money to be2 had. I would gladly enhance my pretrial3 electronic monitoring population if I had4 somebody to watch them. I don't have5 them.6
I would7 like to request, Madam Chair, if we could8 get the cost of all those units that we9 are national leaders on -- the DUI Court,10 the Mental Health Court, the Community11 Court. Because, you know, we can't12 approve a budget that cuts the very things13 that are helping us offset this budget,14 this 25 percent budget. That's not15 acceptable.16 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We will get17 you some numbers.18
Thank21 you.22 The Chair recognizes23 Councilwoman Blackwell.24
Thank25 67 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 you, Madam President.2 Good morning, Your Honor, Judge3 Demby, and Mr. Lawrence.4 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Good5 morning.6
We7 appreciate, frankly, the tone of these8 discussions. You know, I'm really9 concerned about Night Court, and we need10 probation officers expanded to junior high11 and more high schools, certainly not cut.12 And so, we're really concerned about the13 implications of these cuts, and we really14 support the Courts.15 The President talked about how16 we could do things more efficiently, but17 all of this talk also about having a18 process for non-violence offenders, that19 time has come as well.20 So we support all of those, and21 we appreciate your commitment, and thank22 you.23 PANEL MEMBERS: Thank you.24
The25 68 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.2
Thank you,3 Madam President.4 Good morning again.5 Mr. Lawrence, you said, in6 response to a question earlier, that7 prison overcrowding is due to crime; is8 that correct?9
How many new11 criminals are we projecting to have in12 Fiscal Year '10?13
How many new16 criminals are we expecting to have in17 Fiscal Year '10?18
New20 criminals, as in new offenders, versus21 recidivists.22
To be honest with23 you, Councilman, I can get you that24 number. I don't have it. There will be25 69 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 60 to 65,000 arrests made for both2 misdemeanor and felony offenses in FY '10.3
Can you give4 me the number of how many new offenders5 are projected for Fiscal Year '10 and how6 many are projected for Fiscal Year '09?7
Do you know14 off the top of your head whether that15 number varies per year, or how much it16 varies per year?17
I would imagine18 might it's fairly consistent. It might19 vary a bit with the police arrest rate.20
Do you know21 what percentage that accounts for in terms22 of prison population?23
So you don't25 70 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 know how many recidivists are in the2 prison population?3
I can assure you4 that there are few, if any, first-time5 non-violent offenders in the prison right6 now. People are in the prison --7
That wasn't8 the question. Do you know what percentage9 of the prison population is made up of10 recidivists?11
Do you know14 what percentage of the prison population15 is made up of non-violent recidivists?16
No, but I can17 probably find out, depending on how we18 define "violent."19 Let me just explain one of the20 dilemmas the Court faces. For the21 non-violent offender -- the drug user, not22 the seller, the user, prostitute -- they23 have a strong tendency not to appear in24 court. So while there may be someone in25 71 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 jail accused of possession of narcotics,2 which is a relatively minor offense, if3 they're in prison or jail, they probably4 have a history of failing to come to court5 time after time after time after time.6 And once you get into that7 cycle, out of necessity, the bail just8 goes up and up and up and up, because when9 we schedule the case, the police officer10 comes in. Maybe he's on vacation and11 we're paying him overtime, although one12 would hope not.13
You're14 actually accounting for a whole lot of15 money right there.16
I think what we21 have to do -- and I don't know that the22 Court can do it on its own, but I think as23 a system, we need several things to24 happen.25 72 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 We need a way to deal with the2 mentally ill offender that works. We have3 just last week asked PCCD for funding for4 a planning group to establish a Mental5 Health Court that works. We need to find6 reentry systems for the offenders that7 work in terms of employment.8 One of the biggest problems we9 face in getting people out of jail,10 particularly on house arrest, is finding a11 place for them to live. There's a severe12 problem with residential facilities for13 the offenders. Their families don't want14 them in the home, and they have no place15 to go.16
As a council,17 I think you've heard Council is fairly18 united in wanting to address all of those19 issues.20 We're dealing with one pot of21 money. So not only is it useful to know22 what percentage of the prison population23 is made of recidivists, but what the24 investment in recidivism should be in25 73 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 terms of reintegration and maybe diverting2 funds there and so forth.3 Or else, we are essentially,4 through your budget request, even for your5 recommendations of CJAB, we're essentially6 funding the same system year after year.7 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: You're8 correct.9
You're absolutely12 right, Councilman. I think we have to13 change the way we, as a system, do14 business, because what we're doing now15 isn't working very well.16
And primarily17 because we don't know how many new18 criminals there are. They may not make up19 a big percentage of the population, they20 may be non-violent offenders, and so,21 therefore, we have a recidivism problem.22 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: At bottom, I23 don't think that is the reason, sir. At24 bottom, I think it's because we are using25 74 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 a very old justice model that says: When2 somebody does something wrong, punish; if3 that doesn't work, punish more; if that's4 not working, punish some more.5 And despite the fact that that6 keeps not working, that's what our whole7 system is designed to do. That's the laws8 that we're given to work with. It's very9 troubling because all the other things --10
But Judge11 Demby, the point is more specifically that12 we keep throwing out numbers regarding13 non-violent offenders.14 (Timer bell rings.)15
You've16 somewhat contested those numbers without17 quantifying what those numbers actually18 are.19 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We will have20 those for you before the end of the day.21
You're24 welcome.25 75 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 The Chair recognizes Councilman2 Jones.3
Thanks again,4 Madam President.5 I'm glad we're evolving to a6 point where we are looking at these7 various courts and morphing them into a8 system of justice that isn't the castle9 model that I mentioned but more local,10 more holistic, if you would, and dealing11 with the systemic reasons people commit12 crime, and addressing them as opposed to a13 paper mill that we have currently, where14 we plea out things but don't solve the15 root causes of crime, nor do we address16 the restorative end of justice, which is17 that the person who got their car taken18 got their car back but they had to pay an19 additional insurance premium. That20 doesn't get addressed in all of this.21 So a model that deals with a22 Community Court or a opportunity court23 kind of does several things. One, it24 reduces the overhead that we have to25 76 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 administer justice. Two, it really solves2 some of the initial problems of the3 causes, root causes, of crime. And it4 takes care of the victim at the other end5 and assures them and society that whether6 it's a lot that gets cleaned, whether it's7 graffiti that gets removed, whether it's a8 alley that Councilman Tasco and driveways9 that Councilwoman Tasco are concerned10 about get addressed. So holistic justice11 is what we're talking about.12 And I think I'm glad that,13 whether it's CJAB, the Mayor, Council, all14 of us are moving with a mindset towards15 that.16 Let me get into some specifics,17 however, of some things that I think we18 need to address by way of cost reduction.19 One of the things that I, in20 peeling the layers of this onion to try to21 get to what justice truly is now and what22 it should be is, you can't ignore the23 whole probation aspect of this. It is a24 building block of justice that needs to be25 77 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 addressed.2 And one of the things that I'm3 concerned about, and I would like you to4 address, is this model of determining5 whether a probation person is a high-risk,6 a medium-risk, or a low-risk individual;7 thus, prescribing the treatment of8 probation, the frequency of probation, and9 the intensity of visits that we have.10 And I understand that we've11 gotten a model done now by a Dr...12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Sherman.13
... Sherman14 who kind of uses this model that he's15 developed, but I have some concerns about16 it, because in determining the priority,17 he exempts out whether or not the18 individual is using drugs or any type of19 intoxicant as to determine whether or not20 they're a high-risk or a low-risk.21 And it's my understanding,22 through studies that I've read, trying to23 catch up on this whole notion, that 8024 percent or more of the crimes that are25 78 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 committed, the person is on some type of2 intoxicant, whether it's alcohol or drugs.3 So I don't understand, conversely, how we4 determine the risk factor without5 considering their drug use.6 So could you help me with that?7 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: What I can8 tell you, because this is statistical9 stuff that exceeded the one course that I10 took in college, is that Dr. Sherman was11 able to capture the computer data from our12 system, beginning back in the '70s, so13 that they had hundreds of thousands of14 individuals to look at over a long period15 of time and put in all sorts of -- sorted16 it by all kinds of queries.17 And because of the sheer18 volume -- I mean, when they've started19 coming up with this idea, apparently, the20 computers weren't big enough or capable of21 crunching this kind of data. So it just22 took a long time not only to get enough23 cases but also to develop the computers24 that could handle them. And they included25 79 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 many, many, many factors.2 And if you are interested, I3 know that Dr. Sherman would love to come4 and talk --5
Tell Doc6 Sherman he can borrow my computer because7 it's concerning to me that we don't do8 that. If you look at what --9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I don't know10 that it's true that it doesn't include11 drug use, but --12
Well, my16 concern is that in the case of Ready,17 Willing and Able, which is a group that18 uses the population of the homeless, and19 these are primarily young to middle-aged20 men that are homeless.21 And one of their success ratios22 on people getting out of the homeless23 spiral is that they, every day, are using24 random drug tests to determine if the25 80 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 population is fulfilling their covenant to2 get into a self-sustaining matter or a3 situation and not of homelessness and use4 of jobs.5 The key of it is because they6 use that as a barometer of how a person is7 doing, I believe -- and I'm not a8 scientist or a social scientist, but9 because they use that determining factor,10 they're finding greater success.11 As we start to evolve towards12 community courts and starting to determine13 what level of priority a individual has,14 that whole variable of drug use has to be15 considered in that model to determine16 whether someone's on the right course or17 the wrong course.18 So I don't want to replicate a19 mistake by way of recidivism, by way of20 recurrence, and by way of risk standing21 based on not using the variable of drug22 use or alcohol use.23 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Intuitively,24 that makes sense to me --25 81 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 (Timer bell rings.)2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: -- as well3 as, like, going to Weight Watchers. If4 you don't go stand on the scale, I mean5 you don't -- you stop being --6
Correct.7 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: But I8 don't -- I really have to get Dr. Sherman9 to come and talk to you.10
And if I may,11 Councilman, the high-risk/low-risk model12 isn't designed to stop crime. Fifteen13 percent of the people on probation, no14 matter what kind of level of supervision15 you're going to give them, they're going16 to get arrested again.17 The model is designed to18 identify the high risk offender, defined19 as somebody who is going to commit a20 violent crime -- whether that's murder,21 attempted, armed robbery, rape, something22 along those lines. So it's not something23 that's designed to be the cure-all and24 be-all of societal ills.25 82 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
I got that --2 just because my time is up -- I would3 equate that to using credit-scoring on4 credit as opposed to a real person,5 looking at a person, and figuring out what6 their risk factor is.7 If you just plug in the8 variables and use the computer model,9 that's credit-scoring as it relates to10 probation. And I'm very leery of that and11 I just --12 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And we will13 get Dr. Sherman to get you a presentation.14 I think you would --15
You're18 welcome.19 The Chair recognizes20 Councilwoman Miller.21
Thank you,22 thank you, Madam President.23 Good morning.24 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.25 83 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Hi. I2 just basically just have a few comments3 and a question.4 I support all that my colleagues5 have talked about this morning. The6 keeping in place what I call the specialty7 courts, such as the Gun Court or whatever,8 we must have those different types of9 programs and different types of courts10 available for our citizens.11 And certainly, the need to12 figure out a way that we can release13 non-violent prisoners from jail and put14 them on an electronic monitoring and hire15 more probation officers is certainly more16 cost-effective than keeping them17 incarcerated and, as my colleague18 Councilman Green pointed out, the 7519 million that we spend just in medical care20 alone.21 Also, I just want to talk about,22 what is the impact of overcharging on a23 daily prison sentence? If someone -- is24 someone more likely to have a higher bail25 84 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 versus a lower bail if it's a issue of2 overcharging?3 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Absolutely.4 What happens is that shortly5 after you're arrested, a bail commissioner6 looks at the charges and sets bail, for7 the most part, working off a grid that --8 where the seriousness of the crimes is the9 most important factor. I mean, none of us10 likes to see our pictures in the Daily11 News for most cases. And so they're very12 cautious about that.13 So I've never understood that.14 There's no reason why the prosecutors and15 the police can't -- whoever is doing it --16 at the moment, it's the District17 Attorney -- can't charge with what seems18 like the most reasonable thing as opposed19 to all possible charges.20 They can always amend later, but21 they just have chosen not to do that under22 this administration.23
I guess24 you think it's because they just want them25 85 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 to be held? And not everybody's budget is2 being cut, and I think that that's a big3 factor as to terms of the incarceration.4 Some of these people could be out if they5 weren't overcharged.6 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I agree, I7 agree.8
Okay.9 Your budget page is just a single page; it10 doesn't really tell us much. I was11 actually looking for -- I was looking for12 the page on your purchase of services,13 your contracts. And that's not, of14 course, in there. We only have this one15 page.16
Yeah, what we've17 been faced with is, we started the year18 with $114 million, and you do have that19 page for that number.20 Since July 1st, we've been asked21 to address budgets of $108 million,22 $92 million, $82 million, $99 million, and23 $104 million. It's been impossible for us24 to keep up with the budget detail under25 86 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 each of these scenarios.2
Okay. But3 you do have purchase of services, though,4 right?5
Okay.14 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I believe15 that about 85 percent of our budget is16 personnel.17
Okay. I18 think Councilwoman Maria Sanchez asked for19 a breakdown on your budget, all those20 specific details? All the other21 departments, we have specific details.22 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: We can give23 you lots of detail.24
Okay. And25 87 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 can you also give me information -- you do2 have contracts, correct?3
Okay. And5 I'd like to have information on your6 contracts and the number of minorities and7 women businesses that you've contracted8 with.9
All right.11 Thank you. If you could just send it to12 the Chair. Thank you.13 Thank you, Madam President.14
You're15 welcome.16 The Chair now recognizes17 Councilman Green.18
Thank you,19 Madam Chair.20 So how many -- where I was21 getting to with my questioning when we22 finished last time was the resources that23 are in your budget for electronic24 monitoring and of things that could reduce25 88 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the prison population. And if we're going2 to go that route to save money, you know,3 whether we work on guidelines together at4 the CJAB or however you get to a place5 where everybody can agree that this is who6 we're going to release, we're going to7 have electronic monitoring, are you -- do8 you have under the current plan or, you9 know, or an alternative plan, do you have10 enough personnel in those departments to11 have several thousand people out on12 electronic monitoring?13
So that would15 save the prison system a tremendous amount16 of money.17
I think, you19 know, what we -- what I certainly would20 like to understand is how -- what21 resources you would need in order to22 accomplish that.23
And we can24 certainly provide that. We can provide25 89 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 you with costs per hundred, per 500,2 whatever the breakdown might be.3 Let me just also point out that4 the Court doesn't kind of sit benignly5 while people are entering the prison.6 Every day, the prison population is7 reviewed by our Pretrial Services Unit to8 check the new admissions to see if there's9 anybody that we can get out on the Court's10 Conditional Release Program. There are11 guidelines set as to how people qualify12 for that, and it depends on the nature of13 the offense, their history of appearing14 for court.15 So I want to assure Council that16 we just don't sit back, lock people up,17 and forget about them until their court18 date.19 EM is a very useful tool in a20 lot of cases. And given appropriate21 staffing levels and the ability to acquire22 more units, which run about $1300 apiece23 right now, you know, we can certainly24 expand our population of that.25 90 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: In addition2 to the cost of the units, which live a3 hard life -- you know, defendants cut them4 and run. And, as with all computer5 gadgets, they go on the fritz sometimes.6 In order for there to be any7 point to it, we need to have 24/7 people8 sitting there, monitoring the screens.9 And they need to let us know when somebody10 is two minutes' late, 10 minutes' late, an11 hour late. And they need to let us know12 in realtime so that we can send out13 warrant officers to get them.14 So it's the monitoring people15 and the warrant officers that make it16 difficult in budget crunch time to17 maintain that service.18
Okay. I19 understand Deputy Mayor Gillison testified20 before the State Senate Judiciary21 Committee in September regarding the need22 for increased funding by the State of23 adult probation and parole services. And,24 in fact, I think the State's supposed to25 91 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 pick up a specific percentage of that2 every year, under State law.3 Has there been -- I think it's4 70 percent. Has there been any progress5 with respect to this?6
No. I think7 we're at about 40 percent, Councilman.8 That's the State grant and aid, which is9 returned to the counties by the State10 Board of Probation and Parole.11
And under12 State law, aren't they required to provide13 you with 70 percent?14
Is there any17 consideration by the FJD of taking legal18 action to force the State to provide those19 resources to you?20
No, but I would21 defer to the City of Philadelphia. The22 FJD doesn't get the money; the City of23 Philadelphia gets reimbursed.24 So if the Law Department deemed25 92 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 there to be an action, they could take2 appropriate steps.3
Okay. So4 that would be up to the City Solicitor to5 try to enforce that State law.6
Okay.9 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: To go back10 to your last point, if I may, with the11 current electronic monitoring units, which12 are in full use, there's a waiting list to13 get on them. It's costing about three14 quarters of a million dollars a year to15 run that program, based on where it is16 now.17
It's about20 800,000 in salaries. That doesn't include21 acquiring the monitors, that does not22 include fringe benefits, nor does it23 include the maintenance on the units,24 which the City kind of forgot about years25 93 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 ago, when they gave us that job.2
So that's a3 thousand dollars roughly per prisoner per4 year.5
Compared to8 what it costs for them to be in a prison,9 which is $30,000 a year?10
Okay. So15 could you just get back to us with16 information about what the average17 caseload per is in adult probation, et18 cetera.19
And also21 think about what resources we could22 provide you with respect to electronic23 monitoring?24
Absolutely. I'd25 94 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 be happy to do that.2
Okay. And3 has there ever been a discussion at CJAB4 about guidelines, when that tool would be5 used?6
Keeping in mind11 that the CJAB is relatively new, we spent12 some time organizing ourselves, and we're13 just getting the subgroups together such14 as the Prison Population Reduction15 Subcommittee, the Police Overtime16 Subcommittee. Those groups are just17 beginning to speak.18 (Timer bell rings.)19
So I'm sure that20 as our discussions move forward, we will21 be looking at that.22 There's always been discussions23 as to whether the bail guidelines should24 be reviewed.25 95 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
Right.2 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: What we did3 do already on that front is, just in the4 last week, developed working with other5 members of the CJAB, handouts in the Court6 so that the defense lawyers can get the7 information that the investigators need to8 set up electronic monitoring.9 I mean, there are a number of10 things. Like, number one, there's got to11 be somebody that's willing to have you in12 their home. Number two, they have to have13 a phone line that doesn't have call-14 waiting and forwarding and this and that.15 And they can't go into, I think, Section 816 housing. I mean, there's just a number of17 mechanical things that have to be worked18 out.19 And by getting the lawyers to do20 that in the courtroom, that, again, should21 speed up the process of when monitors are22 available.23
Okay.24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:25 96 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Councilman, I'm sorry. Your time is up.2
I thought I3 might sneak one in, Madam Chair. You4 caught me.5 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:6 Councilwoman Sanchez.7
Oh, I'll8 give my time to Councilman Green.9 Go ahead so you can finish up.10
Thank you14 Councilwoman and Madam Chair.15 So, frankly, I've briefly lost16 my train of thought and where I was going.17 (Laughter.)18
Discussions at19 CJAB about guidelines and things of that20 nature.21
So I'd be24 very interested in like -- I think where25 97 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Council is going is -- and I'm only --2 where I'm going -- well, I'm speaking for3 myself -- is if you can -- if there's a4 credible plan for reducing the population5 and that PICA will accept as a rationale6 as well as us, 'cause we have other people7 looking over our shoulder --8
-- then I10 think that, you know, alternative budgets11 are a reasonable thing for us to consider,12 and we'd just -- I'd like more detail and13 even a more specific plan about the DA's14 proposal and other proposals.15 If a major factor is this -- the16 fact that we could reduce the prison17 population as the President Judge said by,18 you know, I can't remember, several19 thousand, if we just got the information20 from the DA's Office to everybody within21 hours, if we can get a guideline written22 by the CJAB that people will agree to,23 that the DA will agree to do that, those24 sorts of things.25 98 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And I know there's not much time2 before the budget's passed. But, you3 know, that sounds like low-hanging fruit4 to me, to get the DA's Office to do that.5 And, you know, maybe it's6 something -- I'm personally going to ask7 the Solicitor whether or not that's8 something we can mandate by ordinance --9
The challenge we14 all face is that we aren't indeed15 independent elected officials. We, as a16 court, can't dictate prosecutorial policy.17 And, as some very famous Philadelphians18 said, she's a tough cookie. And we're not19 going to change Lynne Abraham's20 prosecutorial bent.21 What we have to do is find a way22 to take that into consideration, but, at23 the same time, deal with those things that24 we can in fact deal with. For instance,25 99 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the conditional release guidelines have2 the imprimatur of the District Attorney's3 Office.4
If they didn't,6 our judges would have a hard time7 releasing somebody under those --8
No, I9 understand what you're saying, but maybe10 we can entice the DA with, I don't know,11 $4 million.12 (Laughter.)13
Yeah.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: Yeah. You16 know, I think both you and Councilman17 Goode are correct, that in supporting this18 proposal of the District Attorney's, that19 we should come up with an action plan as20 to how we would make it viable for all of21 the players with specific numbers. There22 are some things that we can't predict23 because we're not in control of all of the24 decisions. But I must say that everybody25 100 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 at this point does seem to be working2 cooperatively together.3 And just a -- this isn't meant4 to -- or it wasn't meant to show up the5 Mayor's team. The numbers and the -- have6 been so unstable all the way through.7 Many of the things that we have done that8 are emptying out the prison and saving9 costs and raising revenue, which we have10 done substantial amounts of this year,11 really just went into effect in the last12 few months.13 And, you know, the first month14 that we began with the AVOPP and the ARC15 Programs to cut the time on these16 probation violators, we couldn't be sure17 how effective that was going to be,18 because there are so many ways for things19 to foul up.20 That is working well. We think21 it will expand in many ways. And we have22 other things that we're working on, on23 both the civil side and the criminal side24 that -- and we're moving in the right25 101 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 direction.2
The5 Chair recognizes Councilman Goode for a6 point of information.7
Thank you,8 Madam President.9 But the point is, President10 Judge, that this district attorney took a11 resolution to CJAB to have it approved, to12 spend money in exactly the same way. And13 this district attorney, which is only14 responsible for half of the next fiscal15 year, because there will be a new district16 attorney, according to your own testimony17 and response to questions, is holding us18 back in terms of saving money.19 So the question is, as we're20 considering this budget, and as you21 approved the resolution that came to CJAB,22 shouldn't CJAB and those members that will23 be members of CJAB for the full fiscal24 year be a little bit more forward-thinking25 102 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 and a little bit more aggressive in terms2 of how we approach this?3 Thank you, Madam President.4
I want to be5 very clear about something. That is: I6 think the FJD has done a tremendous job7 this year with respect to the savings8 you've already made, the increases in9 revenue, the implementation of technology.10 You've got examples like an electronic11 courtroom that -- you've got electronic12 filing now in the Prothonotary's Office,13 which has created tremendous efficiencies14 throughout the system.15 So, I mean, personally, I think16 you guys have done a tremendous job. I17 want to help you and support you even18 more. And I'm just asking for a little19 bit more detail so that we can, in fact,20 demonstrate that providing you with more21 resources makes sense in the big picture22 of all our public safety dollars.23
We appreciate24 those remarks, Councilman. And we've25 103 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 always considered ourselves to be a good2 governmental partner, and we will3 absolutely continue to do so.4
You're7 welcome.8 The Chair recognizes9 Councilwoman Brown.10
Thank you,11 Madam President.12 Good morning.13 PANEL MEMBERS: Good morning.14
I have a15 couple of follow-up, and then I want to16 take a look at the big picture.17 In response to one of Councilman18 Goode's questions, you said we are -- and19 let me be accurate here. How can you20 assure us -- you stated that you're fairly21 sure that in prison, there are no first22 time non-violent offenders.23 How can you be sure of that?24
I'm fairly25 104 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 certain of that because, as I said2 earlier, Councilwoman, we do go through3 every admission every day --4
-- to see who we6 can qualify for some sort of a release7 program.8
Okay. If12 you had to ID a city in the United States13 of America, much like Philadelphia,14 that -- where the best practices are in15 place and making a difference for the16 department that you represent, what city17 would that be?18
I think cross-19 judicial comparisons are very difficult.20
I am of the22 opinion -- and I've been to many court23 systems around the country -- that24 Philadelphia, despite our shortcomings, is25 105 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 among the best.2
So what3 grade, then, would you give Philadelphia,4 given the line of questioning that has5 happened here today?6
I would give us,7 given our resources, probably about a B or8 a B-plus. We can always do better, and9 we're always striving to do better.10 But our personnel and our judges11 are dedicated, they're hardworking,12 they're open minded. And I think we have13 one of the finer court systems you'll find14 in any major city.15
What16 reasons would you think there were that --17 let me find this article -- that Deputy18 Mayor for Public Safety, Deputy Mayor for19 Health and Opportunities, Prison20 Commissioner, Police Commissioner, and21 Defender Association of Philadelphia.22 From where you sit, why do you believe23 they voted not in favor of the resolution?24
Mrs. Greenlee's25 106 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 budget would be reduced where it's not2 being reduced under the current scenario.3 And I believe that the deputy mayors, the4 various commissioners have endorsed the5 budget presented by the Mayor, as well6 they should; it's their employer. And7 they want to see that budget move forward.8 Whereas, if that budget moves9 forward, I'm losing 200 employees. And I10 need to do what I can to make sure the11 Courts can continue to operate as12 effective as we possibly can.13
So do you14 believe that their reasoning was15 budget-related, not program-related, not16 philosophy-related, any of those others?17
Well, I think one18 is driven by the other. Look, the Mayor19 and his team have very, very difficult20 decisions to make. We're not in any way21 trying to understate the significance of22 the decisions those folks have to make.23 I think they feel that the big24 picture is addressed in the programs25 107 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 they're keeping, the programs they're not2 keeping, and the overall allocation of the3 budget.4 This is, as the Judge said, not5 a slap at the Mayor. This is a6 suggestion, it's only a recommendation,7 it's not binding, that perhaps we can look8 at the total Public Safety budget and see9 if we can move some dollars around so that10 we can retain the programs that the11 Council appears so anxious to retain.12 And so that I'm not contributing13 to the current economic crisis by putting14 people out of work.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I can16 guarantee that if we get the budget that17 the Mayor is giving us, that we will18 increase the cost to the Prison and the19 Police. There's no way that we can avoid20 it. We will be that that thinly spread21 that I can guarantee that when we come22 back here next year, that you'll see23 higher Prison costs and higher Police24 costs.25 108 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
The clock2 is running.3 What was your understanding of4 the request that all City departments who5 receive a penny from the Philadelphia city6 government come with numbers around MBE7 and WBE participation? And this a8 follow-up to Councilwoman Donna Reed9 Miller's question.10
And we're not a24 City department, either.25 109 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1
The same2 applies. Do you collect any dollars from3 the City of Philadelphia?4
The same6 applies. Any department, agency,7 individual that gets a penny from the8 Philadelphia City government is required9 to come here and tell us what your MBE/WBE10 participation rates are, period.11 There are a number of others on12 Council that care about that, and the13 expectation is that everyone who comes14 here requesting dollars from us bring with15 them in the body of their testimony those16 numbers. That's the expectation.17 So we'll look forward to the18 receipt of that in the information that19 you'll be sending.20 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: And we21 apologize. If we had had that directive,22 we would have certainly had it, and we'll23 get it to you very promptly.24
Thank you.25 110 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Last year, they were questions2 raised around the -- let me get to that3 later.4 Please speak to us about the5 nature of the relationship with DHS and6 activities principally within Family7 Court. Give us a brief update on what's8 happening with DHS, what's happening with9 families and young people in Family Court.10 If you could, speak specifically to the11 Truancy Prevention and the Parenting12 Project.13
If I may,14 Administrative Judge Dougherty, from the15 Family Court, is here. And I would defer16 to him to answer that questions.17
Terrific,18 terrific.19 (Witness comes forward.)20 (Timer bell rings.)21
Good22 morning, Your Honor.23 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Good24 afternoon, Madam President. Good morning,25 111 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Councilwoman.2
Good3 morning, Judge?4 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: How are you,5 Councilwoman?6
Good7 morning.8 I simply wanted an update on the9 Truancy Prevention and the Parenting10 Project and how and if they might be11 impacted with the budget, as currently12 presented.13 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: The answer is14 yes.15
Excuse16 me, Your Honor. You're going to have to17 identify yourself for the record.18 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: For the19 record, Kevin Dougherty, Administrative20 Judge of the Family Court Division, First21 Judicial District. I apologize.22
Thank23 you.24 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Councilwoman,25 112 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 the answer is very simple: Yes, it could2 be impacted.3 But I have worked hand in glove4 with Deputy Commissioner Ann Marie Ambrose5 to make sure that those two particular6 practices are not. I should have brought7 my numbers.8 Last year, we increased our9 truancy. And we were able to -- with10 additional funding, we were able to meet11 not the needs of 9,000 children to 24,00012 children pass through our programs.13 As you may be aware, and if I14 could give you a quick 101, way our15 Truancy Program is, the Philadelphia16 School District will provide to17 Philadelphia's Family Court and my18 personnel, we will filter a list of19 individuals who are truant from school20 eight or more days.21
Mm-hmm.22 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: We then list23 those cases in eight cluster courts, which24 are usually high schools throughout the25 113 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 Philadelphia area.2
I see.3 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: We have4 decided, in the revamping, with the5 increased monies, to change the way we did6 business.7 It would be essential to put a8 DHS representative -- and we've called9 that person a facilitator. They are the10 first contact that the family will have11 entering into the truancy system. It's at12 that time we tried to quickly collect the13 social history and the needs of the child14 so that we can refer the children to some15 community -- and family members to16 community-based services. They will then17 have a subsequent appearance back at the18 cluster courtroom.19 Should the child and/or family20 not be compliant, the next level would be21 a Family Court representative, called the22 master, who will add a little more teeth23 or cause agencies to work.24
Okay.25 114 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Hypothetically2 speaking, we should be able to resolve the3 issues there.4 In those more serious scenarios,5 they come to 18th and Vine, and we have an6 individual, another master, who is more7 empowered, will make the determination as8 a last resort before we have the case9 assigned to a judge. And I have one judge10 currently assigned, Judge Ann Butcher.11 The question and concern is to12 make sure that we are the gatekeeper so13 that our children don't enter our14 dependent system. As we know, truancy is,15 in fact, a symptom of a greater ill.16
It's the17 first signal.18 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Absolutely.19 So we are moving in a very20 forward, progressive manner to address the21 needs first by community base.22 Interestingly, I did my23 evaluation, and I believe last year, we24 only had about 1800 cases out of 24,00025 115 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 come to Judge Butcher. And what I was2 trying to determine was the level or the3 number of those children that ended up in4 our end dependent system.5
Mm-hmm.6 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I actually was7 on the phone with Deputy Mayor Schwarz as8 well as Commissioner Ambrose two days ago,9 discussing how we can create some type of10 respite, which we could address,11 particularly mental health needs, of12 individuals who are manifesting as truant.13
Right.14 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: But, really,15 there's other social conditions which are16 causing them to come to us, requiring17 placement.18 And placement is the final19 option. It's not healthy or beneficial20 for the family or the child. Sometimes,21 it's the only solution.22
Mm-hmm.23 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: But we are24 front-loading the system, really trying to25 116 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 work on it. And I have been consistently2 working with the Department to make sure3 to maintain whatever cost-savings we can4 to have our program existing without5 losing the integrity --6
Okay.7 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: -- of the8 process.9 Does that answer your question?10
Yes. It11 does.12 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: The Parenting13 Program, different story.14 The Parenting Program is to at15 least listen to the parent who's16 frustrated with the child. And we have17 implemented certain additional programs.18 We've brought a practice in as a result of19 the initiative of Justice Max Baer from20 the Supreme Court to introduce family21 group decision-making and family group22 conferencing.23 In essence, we, the judges, and24 the social workers, we have agreed that we25 117 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 shouldn't be the ultimate sayer, the say2 in a family. What we want is a family3 strength, family-focused decision-making4 process. And we've defined "family" as5 anyone who has a space in his or her heart6 for that child. And, in essence, we want7 everyone to come together.8 Far too often, families are9 coming before us. And many times, they're10 single-parent mothers who are angry with11 the father 'cause the father's out of the12 photo, but that doesn't mean Father's13 mother isn't a loving potential resource.14 And far too often, before this practice,15 we were only -- I should say, as the16 judges, we're only as good as the17 information we receive.18 So if we're not being informed19 that there's an extended family readily20 available, then the alternative is21 placement, and we have to stop that.22 So this family group decision-23 making, this family conferencing, we've24 brought in trainers to train both our25 118 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 staffs -- DHS and Family Court -- so that2 we can engage the family and then3 ultimately make the decision so it's Aunt4 Molly who's going to take the child to5 school and make sure that the ten-year-old6 is at the bus stop and Uncle Billy is7 going to be home, so that if Mom has to8 work to maintain support, we have a9 collective family-focused, family-10 strength-based order.11 Then we incorporate that and try12 to divert it from our court process. And,13 God forbid, it ultimately has to come back14 in; we still have so revisit it, tweak the15 family group decision-making agreement and16 try to -- hopefully, our ultimate goal is17 to incorporate that as the judicial order.18 So, in essence, we're taking the19 stigma away that this individual wearing a20 black robe is ultimately controlling the21 life of the child and family. It's much22 easier for us to have a buy-in.23
A buy-in.24 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: A buy-in. I25 119 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 believe it's necessary for the family to2 be willing to accept.3 It's much easier for me to say,4 "Madam Councilwoman, can we go to lunch?"5 as opposed to me saying, "Councilman,6 you're going with me."7
Indeed.11 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: We have to12 take human nature and common courtesy and13 manners to the level of dealing with our14 families.15
Well, I16 thank you for your testimony, and I'm17 pleased to hear that the relationship and18 working relationship with the Department19 of Human Services is strong.20 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: It's never21 been better.22
Thank you23 very much.24 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: May I be25 120 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 excused?2
Thank you,6 Madam Chair.7 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:8 Councilwoman Brown, are you finished?9
I was12 so absorbed in what the Judge was saying13 that I didn't hear it.14 (Laughter.)15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA:16 Councilman Jones?17
Thank you,18 Madam President.19 President Judge Dougherty might20 want to come back up again. I have a21 question.22 (Judge Dougherty returns to23 witness table.)24
I have a25 121 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 plea.2 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Thanks for the3 promotion, but my title (inaudible). I'm4 just administrative.5
Well, that's6 Freudian. She's going to move up, you're7 going to move in. I mean, that's how it's8 (indiscernible).9 I have a plea first and then a10 question second.11 The plea is to the group that12 out in front of Broad and Arch, as people13 go into the Probation Office, as they go14 into Community Courts, sometimes the lines15 are around the corner. And often, it is16 in inclement weather.17 And I watch some of the people18 that have to stand out there because of19 their court obligations, standing there20 dutifully in the rain, in the snow. And21 it seems to me that we could get them some22 temporary tent, shelter, something that23 will allow them the dignity of waiting24 outside in some degree of comfort.25 122 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 If you ride by there in the2 mornings -- I hate lines like that, and it3 just doesn't give the participants in4 those programs the dignity that all of us5 deserve.6 And if they have to stand out7 there for upwards of 15 minutes to a half8 hour to a hour, we really need to get them9 some temporary shelter, particularly in10 inclement weather.11 And that is a plea from me, that12 we should not be tightening our belts or13 sharpening our pencils so much that we14 can't afford people common decency.15 PRES. JUDGE DEMBY: I'll look16 into that.17
I appreciate18 that.19 The second one is a question.20 And I'm perplexed and hopefully, I'll get21 this right. Recommendation 75 that has22 come from the State, that is a edict that23 says that when there is child support that24 is deemed uncollectible, that we're wiping25 123 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 it from our books, as from the active2 rolls.3 I have had not one, not ten, but4 over twenty-five kinds of infuriated5 parents -- and not just women, but men as6 well -- that have shouldered the burden of7 child-rearing, have often gone through8 this process with the glimmer of hope that9 someday there would be a day of reckoning,10 and that, in fact, they would receive some11 kind of support from the absentee parent12 only to find out that at the end of the13 day, someone said that because these14 accounts might be deemed uncollectible,15 that they're given the noncustodial parent16 a do-over, if you would. And that's the17 way they couched it.18 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: I understand.19
I want to get20 some clarification --21 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Okay. Let me22 give you the layperson's understanding of23 it. And then I have my supervising judge,24 Margaret Murphy, here as well as Joe25 124 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 (indiscernible), the director that deals2 specifically with the 4D issues who can3 explain to you or probably provide you4 better detail, not at this hearing, 'cause5 it's somewhat complicated as to the6 funding stream and our ability to draw7 down federal funds through incentives.8 But, in essence, the concept is,9 with the funding stream, we're able to10 pull so much money down from the feds for11 every dollar we collect. And Philadelphia12 is being hampered from collecting13 sufficient monies because there are14 certain men and/or women who don't have an15 attachable wage.16 Recommendation 75 was passed as17 a way of suspending those payments, never18 wiping them out. Should there become19 viable information that an individual is20 working above the table or has an21 attachable wage from which we can gather22 or collection award in a civil suit or is23 fortunate enough to win the lotto, then24 that matter will be resurrected so that we25 125 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 can accumulate or gather those proceeds to2 pay any arrearages.3 So, in essence, no, that's a4 misconception that we're just wiping it5 clean because Dad went unground on his6 employment and chooses not to support his7 children.8
And I9 understand your sentiment, but let me give10 you my constituents' sentiment.11 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Mm-hmm.12
It's that13 they spent all this time doing the right14 thing, raising their child.15 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: Absolutely.16
And that17 these individuals, some of them, have18 under-the-books jobs, construction19 companies, pinky diamonds. And these are20 the quotes I've gotten.21 And because of our inability to22 verify that source of income, they are23 being told that we can't collect it.24 We're missing out on some money from the25 126 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 federal government. The onus is now on2 you to find proof that this individual3 works. And it just seems to me to be4 wrong. And wait a minute, let me finish5 my point.6 Because now, you're saying that7 if you find this out, if you do the8 detective work and find this out for us9 and then take another day off from your10 job to come back out and file this, then11 maybe we'll try to collect it again.12 And the point seams to me that13 we should up our game, as they say on the14 streets, that we should be the ones trying15 to help the custodial parent out to find16 these individuals that have neglected17 their responsibility.18 And I view this as such an19 important issue because all of the things20 you see later on in your courts and the21 things you see later on in your courts22 sometimes can be traced back to the fact23 that this individual wasn't given the24 proper parental support, but, as25 127 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 important, monetary support as they were2 growing up.3 So the extra tutoring that they4 should have had to help them to get hooked5 on phonics they don't get, and this and6 that and the other as we go along, the7 recreational activities during the summer8 they don't get.9 And I'm saying that10 Recommendation 75, I understand, is our11 need to get draw-down funds. And I12 understand more clearly than ever in this13 budget crisis. But somehow, some way, it14 seems to be a burden on single parents15 that have done the right thing and now are16 being told, "Oh, well. This is a17 uncollectible account."18 (Timer bell rings.)19
And that's20 just what they say to me, and I'm passing21 that frustration on to you.22 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: And I receive23 many, many letters from very similarly24 situated parents.25 128 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 And then I also receive the2 letters converse to that, for the3 individual who's incarcerated. There's a4 Supreme Court case called the Yerkes5 Decision, which indicates that just6 because you're incarcerated, it doesn't7 mean you don't have the inability to pay.8 And monies are constantly charged and you9 can't pay 'cause you're in jail.10 And then once you come out of11 jail, we're going to smack you with a12 request to come to court and hold you in13 contempt and send you back to jail, 'cause14 you haven't paid.15
Mm-hmm.16 JUDGE DOUGHERTY: And then the17 question is: In the balance of fairness,18 who benefits? The child will always19 suffer. And our focus is, and will always20 be, children first, but we're trying to21 balance the issues of the two, because22 with all due respect, I have to be23 concerned about the individual who's been24 incarcerated and did his or her time and25 129 4/29/09 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - FISCAL '10 BUDGET1 has paid their debt to society.2 And they should not be burdened3 because an order exists that we all know4 is unenforceable and cannot pay. And the5 only remedy is enforcement, which equals6 incarceration.7