Committee Hearing, April 19, 2004

Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Good afternoon, Councilwoman.

And the staff of the Philadelphia Police Department. 375 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 I too want to thank you. I think that your department and yourself in particular have been very supportive of all the efforts that the community groups are making as it relates to dealing with the violence here in this city. And I have seen you out a lot with Men United, and you have been there for Mothers in Charge and some of the other groups that's been around. I just have a quick question. Have you noticed an increase in calls from people complaining about juveniles during the daylight that are not truants? I know in certain parts of my district, some of the people, some of the young people that have been reassigned from day school to twilight school seem to be causing problems out in neighborhoods; such as, gambling and just loitering and all those kind of things. And I was just wondering if this was a citywide problem. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: My information from our deputy commissioner of 376 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 technology, that that is not the case, that we haven't seen that surge in calls because of that reason.

Okay. All right. Well, maybe they are not calling the police, because they are sure calling me. And I was just wondering if it was a citywide problem. Certainly this is an issue that we will discuss with the School District. Because I stopped a group of boys last week, too, that I saw. And they are all in twilight, and they have nothing to do during the day. And people are a little bit afraid and frightened of them. That's really the only question I have. You know, my district loves Safe Streets, people are glad that it is there. It has had a positive impact in neighborhoods. And one person called me today and said, has the Police been on yet? And I said, they just came on, and Deputy Commissioner Fox just talked about Safe Streets. I was watching it down in my office. And they said, they are not going to 377 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 cut Safe Streets, are they? No, they are still going to have Safe Streets. And I said, they sure are. They said, well, that's all I wanted to know. And I do know that that has made a real good impact in the streets in our district. One other thing I would just like to bring up. When Councilman Nutter, I think it was, or Councilman Rizzo, actually, I believe, was talking about the need of police districts, certainly you know and everybody knows that Council Members go to the police stations to get gas. And the trash that's actually in the parking lots, you know and I know, are made by police personnel. And when I go to one particular gas station in my district, you can just see how people get out of their cars, they just throw their Dunkin Donuts cups or bags or McDonald's bags, or whatever trash that they have in the patrol car right, right where the cars are 378 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 parked. So it would be nice if a directive came out that said, we have to be role models, and we have to use trash cans rather than just disposing of the trash on the ground in the parking lots. That would make it look much better. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. I agree with you.

Thank you.

Thank you. I don't know if Councilman Clarke is in the room. Is Councilman Clarke in the room? I don't see him. Are there any other questions from members of the committee? The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.

Comment, Madam President. I would like to simply underscore the suggestion raised by Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller. I know a number of us have a concern 379 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 about the environment in the city. And if we want our young people and children to do the right thing, we really do have to lead by example. So typically the condition around police stations in terms of the trash and environment is less than acceptable. So to hear the Commissioner agree, I would add to that, whatever you do internally to inform your lieutenants that this is a concern -- minor though it may be, but larger scope if we are just talking about quality of environment -- that would be appreciated COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you, Madam President. We just wanted to say that, in spite of all of the tough times we are having in schools and in our neighborhoods, we appreciate the excellence, the commitment, and the excellent job of our Commissioner and the 380 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 entire force in our city. Thank you. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Thank you very much, Councilwoman.

Thank you. Any other questions or comments from members of the committee? Councilman Rizzo.

I thought for the record it might be nice to see the quick response that the Police Department gave on the speeding enforcement throughout the city. The report on the VASCAR assignments. I am glad to find out they are on the Expressway, there are nine of them. And patrol cars, one in the 92nd District, one in the 15th, one in the 8th, and one in truck enforcement. That doesn't mean you can go speeding in the other districts that don't have them, but I appreciate knowing that, Commissioner, because it is very helpful. Thank you for that quick response. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Thank you. 381 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04

Thank you very much, Commissioner, and thanks to all of your staff. We appreciate your patience and your information. Thank you. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Thank you very much.

The Fire Department is next. The stenographer will be given a copy of your testimony. It will be transcribed in full. We would really appreciate it if you could abbreviate your testimony, please COMMISSIONER HAROLD B. HAIRSTON: Okay. Good afternoon, Madam Chairwoman. I am Harold Hairston, Fire Commissioner for the City of Philadelphia. And to my right I have William McNulty, who is a Deputy; and to my left I have David Beatrice, who is our Fiscal Officer. The Fire Department's Operating Budget proposes $162,602,811 for the General Fund; $4,882,250 for the aviation fund; and $831,834 for Grants Fund. This represents a decrease of 382 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 $13,827,031 over our estimated FY '04 budget, and a decrease will be absorbed by a reduction of Fire Department resources. 5 percent increase in EMS responses. 8 percent. Fire prevention programs continue to be on the rise. 6,627 fire prevention programs over the last year by our fire prevention division, 152 families availed themselves of our program that deals with juvenile fire setters, and we see a general trend downward of fire deaths. 26,800 homes were visited over the last year. 2,800 smoke alarms were distributed. The decrease in structure fires is evident from 2002 to 2003. 8 percent. And we see a general decline in 383 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 the number of paid days lost since 1993; the fact is, a 77 percent reduction. Injuries are down from 1993 to 2002 to about minus percent. The revenues have 6 increased dramatically during that same period 7 of time. 8 And the campaign to reduce the 9 unnecessary calls for EMS is something that we 10 have worked on rather vigorously. The fact, 11 is we had about 199,000 calls for EMS. 12 Roughly 50,000 of those did not require medic 13 unit. So we have had a lot of help with 14 trying to get the reduction in place. 15 We had Clear Channel step forward 16 and put up 80 billboards. We had Comcast that 17 did some public service announcements for us. 18 All the TV stations have agreed to play those. 19 We are doing a number of other 20 things, in terms of radio programs and 21 television programs, to try to get people to 22 call us only for emergencies. 23 And it still tends to spiral out of 24 control. And at any given time we could actually run out of medic units. 384 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 So it has been very clear over the last several years, has been that the number of structure fires continues to decline, the number of EMS calls continues to escalate, and the people continue to call us for unnecessary calls. So what we are trying to do is to make an adjustment in terms of where our resources are so that we will be able to have enough medic units, so that we don't run out, and so that we have a sufficient number at any given time so we can respond to anybody's medical emergency. The other enhancements in the Fire Department deal with technology, most of which deal with what we are doing for EMS. And we had managed to get our contractor that does the collections for us to step up to the plate and put some enhancements in place so that we can tell where all the medic units are at any given time; and that we will, in cases where somebody is lost, we will be able to anticipate that; also be able to anticipate and send the closest medic unit to 385 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 a particular incident. And the latest thing is this thing we call Safety Pad, which allows the medics to fill out their incident reports and then get that to the hospital, which is kind of the end user in that, to be able to complete whatever is necessary regarding the medical information. So that that helps when they get into the emergency room, and then it also allows a contractor to bill more efficiently and quicker. That pretty much ends my testimony. I am ready for any questions that you might have.

Thank you, Commissioner. I notice that in the budget detail, there are 216 less firefighters than were budgeted for in FY '04. Were most of them on the DROP? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We had a number that were on DROP, and that's about the DROP number that we had. 386 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04

So would you say 216 were DROP? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I am sorry?

Would you say that 216 were under DROP? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

When is it anticipated that they will be replaced? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We don't anticipate that they will be replaced. As you see from the very first paragraph, we anticipate that we are going to end up with somewhere around $13.8 million less than we would otherwise have had. We are already short about 173 people, and we anticipate that we will be going down below that number because of the lack of funding that is being proposed.

Commissioner, you state in your testimony that your decrease will be absorbed by a redirection of department resources. Would you please explain what that means. 387 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, there were three things that actually were proposed in the five-year plan. Two of them I don't believe will be considered at all, but they were up for consideration. The first one was to reduce the staffing on the ladder companies. That would require, because it was won in arbitration, that would require, going to court in order to get that. So I don't think that that's a practical thing to happen. The other was to have as many as 15 quints. Quint is a piece of equipment that has five different functions. We have one quint in the city. It was not accepted very well. They do use quints in other cities, but that would take a long time before you were ever able to put anything like that in place. That would require that you establish what you want in terms of that piece of equipment, and then go out for bid. And then, or are able to, put that much money 388 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 forward in order to do it. Our quint that we have in place right now cost us about $450,000. The price of a quint today is probably closer to $600,000. And it would take a long time, probably well over a year, before you could do anything like that. So the likelihood that you are going to see that is somewhere between slim and none, in my opinion. I think what will happen is that you will see a reduction in the number of engine companies and the number of ladder companies. The general proposal that is on the table is to reduce the number of engines and reduce the number of ladders, and then add back some medic units because we run out of squads every day. Well, not every day, but a lot of days. So, that's the general transformation plan.

Will you be removing any firefighting vehicles or apparatus from any fire stations? 389 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes. The general plan is --

What is the equipment that you will be taking out of service, and from what locations, and can you tell us what will happen to the fire personnel? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: First of all, I can't tell you the locations because I haven't even submitted this to my boss. And there are three different plans that I have worked on: One that takes as much as 13.8 out of the budget; one that takes the amount that was put into the five-year plan, which was for four engines and seven ladders; and the other is for a lesser amount of engines and ladders.

We are being asked to consider a budget, and we don't know exactly what's being proposed or accepted? We know what you are proposing, but we don't know what the Administration is accepting. And we are going to be asked to vote 390 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 on a budget that we don't have as much information as we should have? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I would say the answer to that is generally true. The fact is --

Do you think that's fair? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, let me be real clear here. You know, I don't think there is a fire chief in the country that would come before a body such as this and say that they were in agreement with cuts. The fact is, the way it is put to me, is that we have a budget deficit right now of $217.7 million, that we will be part of that. How much of it we will have to absorb will probably be decided in large part by this body and others that I have to report to. Generally speaking, it is this: That the only reasonable way you can do this, as far as I am concerned, is that you don't 391 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 close any firehouses, that you reduce the amount of equipment that's out there, and you add back some medic units so that you can at least take care of what the workload appears to be. The workload is increasing in the EMS, the fires are down as far as structure fires are concerned, and you have to have something that responds to the needs of the public. Most people generally seem to believe that they are more subject to needing a medic unit than they are a fire engine, whether that's an engine or a ladder. It is not something that I am happy about, but it is something that is being given to me to say that we will have to be a part of that reduction in terms of dealing with this deficit, which is $227.7 million.

You indicate that there will be eight new medical units. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

Can you tell me where they will be located? 392 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I didn't bring that kind of detail with me, and it is really up for grabs at this point. Generally speaking, we can show you, or anybody else, for that matter, you know, where we have all of our medic units now, which we have 40. We have 60 firehouses, generally. And, so, you would add eight back in the areas where you have the greatest response every day. So I would have to see a map in order to show you what the proposal generally would be. And we are checking that against what fire personnel think, compared to what EMS personnel think. In other words, I could show you on any given day where our responses have a tendency to come from. We do this by census track. There are 368 census tracks. And at least one of those census tracks, as many as 1600 responses come from that one particular census track. 393 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 That happens to be surrounded already by a number of medical units; however, it doesn't stop people from calling you out of that particular area. Our biggest problem is, we just can't be two places at once. And since you can't be two places at once, you have to at least put medic units not necessarily where the responses are coming from, but to at least put them in the areas where you have firehouses available so that you will be able to at least keep those medic units from having to continue to respond to those other areas.

Commissioner, does this redirection of resources impact your current labor agreement with the firefighters union? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No, it doesn't.

It does not. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It does not.

And, again, I would like to make it eminently clear, there is no intention of closing any fire stations 394 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 in the city? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That is absolutely correct.

Point of information, Madam President. I don't think that's a clear answer. What I heard was that, in place of a ladder or an engine, it will be replaced by a medic unit. Now, I don't know anybody that schedules a fire. I want to know what the response time will be. If we pull an engine or a ladder and replace it with a medic unit, what is the impact -- and, again, not knowing where these ladders and engines will be pulled to replace with eight medic units -- I really need to know, before I can be part of supporting any budget for the Fire Department, what it means to my constituents' response time. In other words, if there is a fire, I don't know what a medic unit is going to do to put it out. Commissioner. 395 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: There is a piece of fire equipment in every firehouse. Since there is a piece of fire equipment in every firehouse, there will be somebody with fire equipment that would respond immediately to any incident in any geographic area. The notice that will come in is that, when you respond to a fire, a particular piece of equipment may be missing. And if it is missing, that means that somebody has to respond from a different location. On every fire a reasonable amount of equipment will respond with the ability to fight a fire. Now, the only definitive kind of standard that I am aware of is 17-10, which deals with deployment. Under that standard, you are to have as many as 16 firefighters on location within 8 minutes. With this plan, right now, on average, it takes us about five minutes to get a piece of equipment on location. It is whatever the amount of people are on that 396 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 particular vehicle that actually gets there, but the response times would not change. It simply means that some pieces of equipment will come from further away, but not for somebody that is first in. You would have some firehouses that would have engines, some that will have engines and ladders, some that will have engines only, some that will have ladders only in terms of actual firefighting equipment. But there would be firefighting equipment in every firehouse. And, in addition to that -- and it is probably not a good way of putting it -- in addition to that, we would be adding more medic units. So we have 40 medic units now, 28 of which are full-time, 12 of which are what we call part time, and then you would have other part-time units that would be added.

Just briefly to follow up. Are you telling me that there will be no location in this new plan that will only 397 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 house a medic unit? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That is correct.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Commissioner, I know how professional you have been throughout the years and how you truly love the department and the city. I am assuming that you were told by the Administration you have to cut by X amount of dollars, as probably all of us were. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's correct.

And you are now in a position to have to make some very tough decisions. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: They are the toughest.

You are requesting the same level of funding in FY '05 as you did in FY '04 for your payment to the water fund. Shouldn't you be seeking a 9 percent increase to cover the proposed water rate 398 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 increase? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: You know, that's an excellent question. And I wish I had a better answer for you. But the fact is, these are numbers that are given to us by the Budget Bureau, and they are the ones that really make that decision.

Well, Commissioner, we are going to have to make some decisions, too. It is difficult for you, and it is equally as difficult for us. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I know it is. You have been extremely supportive all the time for every time I have been up here.

And we certainly want to be and hope to continue to be. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

However, sitting here we don't know what is literally being proposed or in front of us. What fire stations will have the engine and the ladder, which ones will just have an engine? How many more -- and, as I 399 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 said, you did explain about the eight new medical units. We don't know where they are going to be located. What happens to the personnel? There are more unanswered questions than we have answers. So I find this somewhat upsetting, frustrating. And I think we may have to have a call-back, because I just don't feel comfortable with the testimony that I hear today. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, I want to pick up on your last statement. You said that the Fire Department or yourself or the management staff is given the numbers that you have by the Budget Bureau. Was that your statement? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes. That was specifically about the water fund; but the other numbers are given to me, as well. 400 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04

I thought your answer overall was about the budget. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

Now, we all know the Budget Director to be an extremely bright and informed and tremendously competent person with the numbers of the budget. I do not know the Budget Director to have any particular experience or expertise with regard to fighting fires or responding to a medical run. So, I mean, I think you identified at least in your testimony -- I don't recall the people that you introduced up there -- but, I mean, certainly yourself in your many distinguished years of service, you have a fiscal officer, you have administrative services people. It would seem to me that there would be some amount of aggressive push-back or just possibly an out-and-out fight about how to run the Fire Department, and how much money you need to do what you need to do, as opposed to at least as you described it, you get the 401 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 numbers from the Budget Office, it is what it is, and then you are now in a position to have to try to explain it or defend it or come up with ideas that conform to a budget that's handed to you. I mean, I don't understand how this works. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I am not sure how to approach this question. The fact is, I feel pretty battle-scarred. It may not be showing, but it seems like to me I am pretty battle-scarred over this whole thing. Certainly not a budget I would have asked for. I certainly wouldn't walk before here and then tell you that I want to see a cut in the Fire Department by $13 million. The fact is, I think we have already gone through all that in terms of fights and so forth. And we were given the number. And the fact is, these are the numbers we were given. And since I am given those numbers, I see my task as one where I do it with the 402 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 least amount of scarring to continue.

All right. I respect that. We may have a difference of opinion about it, but you have been honest about it. Let me try to understand one of your other responses, I think, to the Chair. I think you were asked whether or not any of the fire stations would be closing. I thought your answer was no. 12 I am trying to understand that in the context of in the five-year plan. And maybe this is semantics or my lack of understanding. The sentence says, "The city is assessing the impact of closing 7 of its 29 ladder companies and 4 of its 60 engine companies." When the sentence says that you may close these places, how does that match up with your response that we're not closing any fire stations? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I think it matches it rather clearly. Perhaps I can 403 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 elucidate. The fact is, we have engines in our fire stations, we have ladders in about half of our fire stations. It means that we would remove a certain amount of ladders. That would still leave an engine in those stations. We would remove a certain amount of engines, which would leave ladders in those stations. So the general thing is that you have either an engine or a ladder in every station. So, therefore, you don't have to close a station; you are simply removing a piece of equipment from those stations.

Okay. So on the one hand we are able to represent to the citizens that we're not technically closing a station, but maybe we are not exactly explaining that the station will not be the same station that they have come to know it to be. Now, I mean, you know, not being an expert in fire service, and certainly nowhere near the time in government that you have, I 404 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 think most citizens don't necessarily make a distinction between an engine and a ladder. You've got a big red truck, with personnel on it, makes a lot of noise when it comes roaring out of the station. And when your house is on fire, to some extent I don't know whether you really care or make a particular distinction between an engine and a ladder. What you really want to see is the truck coming up the street, a bunch of people jump off, hook it up to a fire hydrant, and put the fire out. I guess the second part of this is, with a significant reduction in both equipment, I am assuming the seven ladders and the four engines, we would put that equipment either out of service or sell it to someone? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, generally speaking, those pieces of equipment would probably become our second line of defense in terms of reserve equipment. And we would take equipment that is now in reserve and then get rid of it. Because the 405 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 presumption is that all front-line equipment is better than what you have in reserves.

I understand. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: So you step it down.

So we are getting rid of some equipment somewhere that we are presently using? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

And the total number of firefighters that you expect to have, the decrease -- I thought I read in the detail 231, but I thought I heard in Q and A a number of 216. Which is it? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I think you are right on every count. The 216 number was from DROP, that was the question that dealt with that. The 231 number is a number that we are likely to hit in terms of closures.

Closures. Closures that are technically not closures. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: If we close those particular companies, the four and the 406 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 seven, we are likely to be down 231, compared to what we otherwise would have been authorized to have.

Of which you expect 216 to be the attrition, essentially, out of DROP? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We already have that attrition. We already hit that number in terms of our reduction. We anticipate we will have a similar number in the next round.

All right. I was with you there for a second. So is the 231 just a pure reduction in the number of firefighters, having nothing to do with the DROP program? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That has to do with DROP, as well.

Let me ask it this way: In the course of the next fiscal year, you expect to have 231 fewer firefighters, in FY '05? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's correct. 407 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04

And of that number, are 216 of them leaving the Fire Department because of the DROP program? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We are at a loss of 216 due to DROP. We anticipate that in the next round of DROP, over the next year, we are going to lose, probably, another 150. Right now we have --

When you say you have lost the 216 already, that would be in the present fiscal year; correct? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's right.

All right. Now we are getting somewhere. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: The thing that may be confusing about it is that we have been on a hiring spree up until now. So if I look at my total number -- well, we have been hiring classes, 80 at a time, as people go out the door.

Right. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: So if you 408 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 look at where we are in terms of the number of people in the Fire Department, and you look at what our overall authorization was -- which, for uniformed employees it was 2,461, I think -- we have 173 less right now. So we are not doing any hiring.

I am showing you in the book, for FY '04 budgeted positions, uniformed, is showing 1,996. That's what the budget book says. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That sounds right.

Okay. I thought you mentioned the 2,000-plus figure. But we don't have to quibble about that. So in the next fiscal year, you expect 231 fewer firefighters, of which you think 100-plus are from DROP? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

Okay. And how do the other hundred or so firefighters leave city employment? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: You still have some attrition. 409 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04

Right. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Aside from DROP. Although it is slow, it is becoming more normal now than it had in the past, since a lot of people have waited to get the benefit of the DROP. And we also have, right now on our rolls, about 173 people less than we otherwise would have been authorized to have.

Got you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: So the general thing is that you will see a reduction in the number of people in the Fire Department that should not require any kind of layoffs or anything like that in order to make this transition.

I understand. Let me ask this question: 231 less officers, 11 pieces of equipment, whether it is the backup that you have now, you move these first-line pieces to the backup and the stuff that's now backup goes out the door, what's the impact on the ability of the Fire Department to fight a major fire or respond 410 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 to, you know, the unanticipated either terrorism or bioterrorism action? And how do we say to the citizens that we can do as much with fewer equipment and fewer people than we have today? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well --

If this proposal were to go forward. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's a complicated question, but let me try to segment it.

These are often complicated situations. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, I am going to try to segment it to some degree. Last year we had 13 fires that we considered multiple-alarm fires, more than one alarm. A one-alarm fire, generally speaking, is four engines, two ladders, two battalion chiefs.

Right. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We had a total of 13 fires that went beyond that, to 411 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 the point where we would consider it another alarm. So two alarm, three alarms, et cetera.

All separate? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: All separate.

separate 8 incidents? 9 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: 13 separate 10 incidents. 11 Right now, at this date, we have had 12 13 similar incidents based on the fiscal year. 13 So we have seen a general decline, which is kind of outlined in my testimony, if you look at the chart. On a normal situation, up to six alarms, we seem to be able to handle that without bringing any additional people in. Some consideration will have to be given if we get fires that probably go beyond, say, four alarms, as to whether or not we will have to institute our call-back system.

How many alarms was the most recent fire up in Councilwoman Miller's district, the gas? 412 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That was four alarms.

That was four alarms. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes. Now, four alarms we can do very easily the way we are constructed right now. You don't have to call anybody extra in, or anything like that. There is plenty of equipment and plenty of people in order to do that. Now --

What would have happened if there was another four-alarm fire in West Philadelphia that same night? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We would start to get shorter and shorter, and then we would have to resort to other resources. That's why you have, as one of the reasons, at least, why you have reserve equipment, and one of the reasons --

What do you mean by "resort to other resources"? What other resources? 413 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It means we have to go to our call-back system. We have a call-back system that allows us to call in people that are off duty, and we tell them where to report to. And it has been very successful over quite a number of years. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of information.

The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. And good afternoon, Commissioner. On that same line of questioning, you referenced certain incidents where there are four engines, three ladders, or whatever, depending on the size of the fire, I assume. Where do we wind up at the end of the day if these cuts of engines you are talking about, reducing engines and ladders and various firehouse facilities, would we be able to respond and provide the necessary backup if all of these reductions that are 414 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 being proposed were in place today? Does that make sense? I am trying to figure out -- I am not familiar with firefighting, there is no question about that. But you mentioned, based on Councilman Nutter's question about these larger fires, I assume you were speaking to, where you have a certain amount of equipment. There was incidences this year 11 where we had four engines, three ladders, et 12 cetera. I don't remember exactly what those 13 numbers were you were mentioning. What happens if we reduce the number of engines and ladders that is being proposed? How do we get there? How do we respond? Is there adequate equipment, will there be adequate equipment, to provide for the response to the people who live in that community in a safe -- and for our fire personnel? I mean, it sounds like you are going to try to do as much with less in terms of responding and fighting fires because your equipment inventory is going to be shrinking. 415 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: You and I both know you can't do more with less. You have to do less with less or you have to do different. And, so, what we are saying is that we will have to do different. Not because we want to do different; because our budget is being cut. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I understand that. And I understand that -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Allow me to finish to try to get to the point. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I am sorry. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: What we have to do is, we have to go by history. History indicates that the number of structure fires are going down. History also indicates that we get on location within five minutes. That means that somebody gets on location within five minutes. Now, I believe that history will continue to show that we have fewer and fewer structure fires based on what the history has indicated; that over the last 13 years, since 416 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 1990, we have seen a reduction of 46 percent in terms of the number of structure fires. A more careful analysis of that will show that, on average, it takes about 6 minutes before a fire is placed under control. 7 Now, if that continues to be the 8 case, where we continue to see fewer and fewer 9 structure fires, a system where you have less 10 engines and less ladders overall should still 11 be adequate to get on location within the five 12 minutes and to have at least 16 firefighters 13 on location anyplace within the city in eight 14 minutes. Now, that's really what the standard 15 is. 16 It is not something that I would be 17 happy about. Look, you will have less people, 18 and, so, we have to do this differently. And the fact is, what we see is a reduction in the number of structure fires. And since we have a reduction in the number of structure fires, and since we have the obvious thing, which is that we continue to go up -- and since 1990 and 80 percent increase in the number of hospital cases -- we 417 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 have to be able to respond to that in some way. If I had my druthers, I would come before you and you wouldn't be talking about a reduction of $13 million; you would be talking about an increase so that we would be able to respond to the other half of Councilman Nutter's question, which dealt with what happens as far as terrorism is concerned We don't know what will happen as far as terrorism is concerned.

I can tell you this, though, in every case that I am aware of, you need a degree of redundancy in order to be prepared for those things. This takes away any redundancy that we have. But if you have to have the cuts, if you have to have the cuts, I'm saying that, don't cut the number of fire stations. I'm saying put some firefighting equipment in those stations, and then add back where our obvious problem is, and that's dealing with EMS. Now, look, this is the way it is. I mean, if somebody wants to give me more money, 418 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 I will thank you very much. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We are going to try to do that. ) COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Okay. Thanks. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I do appreciate your candor. In the best-case scenario, best-case situation, you would not be asking for a cut, you would be asking for an increase. And I understand you have a job, you get a budget, you have to try to figure out what to do with that budget. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Thank you for that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: My only concern is, no disrespect to you, because you are dealing with a lot of if's. And, you know, when it comes to the lives of people, and especially our fire personnel, you being a fire person yourself, I have a problem with dealing with that. And that's the message we are going 419 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 to be bringing to the Administration, not to you on a personal level, the big if and the should. The word "should" and "if" were being used quite often in your comments and remarks to me. So, I do appreciate your candor and understanding that we really should not be -- and I will use the word "should" -- looking to cut here. I mean, we are talking about reducing equipment. We had a conversation with the Managing Director this morning, which is probably my second time I have talked to him about the fleet, the overall fleet. I have a car. It is one of the perks of my job. I appreciate it. I would like to keep it. But there are a lot of other people who have cars. And maybe I shouldn't have it. People will debate whether Councilpeople should have cars or not. But there are a lot of other cars out there that I see people taking home at night, doing lots of things with it they are not supposed to be doing. 420 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 There is where the cuts should be made, there is where the rollbacks should be made. And we should be looking to figure out a way in giving the equipment, personnel, whatever it is, to Police and Fire. That should not even be a topic of discussion. )

Councilman DiCicco, I think Councilman Nutter was -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That was my point of information.

It was a good point. Madam Chair, unfortunately, I am going to ask two things. One, to be excused. Second, you laid out earlier that you expected that there would be a call-back. There are many, many questions that need to be more fully examined. I would also say, though, to the Commissioner, that, under the circumstances, as Councilman DiCicco laid out, I respect your attempt to be a team player with the 421 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 Administration under the circumstances. But, at the same time, I think it is clearly incumbent upon us to get from you a more detailed plan about proposed, quote, unquote, closures, reorganization, what the actual plan is, number of people who would actually be on the scene. I would like if you would forward to the Chair more detailed information. You have mentioned on half a dozen occasions this afternoon that structural fires -- and you have emphasized on the structural fire side -- are down, although they seem to have leveled off to a certain point over the last four years, and then they were much higher in the previous years. But I would also say that it almost appears -- I am not attributing this to you -- that because of the increase in fire-prevention services that are performed by the firefighters, that it is at least an unusual situation where increased activity out in the community to try to better educate people about fire issues, smoke detectors, a 422 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 whole host of things, which help, I think, to drive down the structural fires, now somehow is used as a negative against the firefighters. That, because, in essence, because you have done such a great job at helping to drive down the number of structural fires, we now need to get rid of you. And I am not, again, attributing that to your judgment, but it does appear to be the case. And that certainly is a rather unusual, if not bizarre, result. I would, Madam Chair, like to reserve the opportunity, when it presents itself, to have much more detailed discussion. This is clearly one of those 100-question situations. And if that opportunity does come about, I would like to have a chance to ask many more detailed questions with regard to this proposal. It is quite discomforting, and I think that we have much more work to do in this regard. (Applause.) 423 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04

Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, so I understand, I want to go back over. And I am pleased to hear that you are being a team player, at least that's how I am understanding it, that you are not happy about having to --

Councilman Rizzo, excuse me just a moment. Would you yield to Councilwoman Blackwell for a moment, please.

Absolutely.

Thank you, Councilman. Madam President, unfortunately I have to be excused, I would like to ask permission to be excused. And I would also like to certainly thank the Commissioner for the work that they do, and also say I was prepared to even ask if some of the firefighters could come forward. We were concerned about issues like, instead of 5-minute arrival at a fire, 11 424 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 minutes, and some of those other issues, issues you raised about over 200 people not working, and how that really affects the quality of life in our city. We are all worried about cuts. But we are also worried about the quality of life for the people in our city. Albeit we know, Commissioner, all of you are kind of pressured about these cuts. We really, really are worried. Because every time a fireman goes out, his life is on the line, and so is the life of everybody in our city. So I am looking forward to additional discussion, as well. We thank him and thank the firefighters who are here, who are really fighting for their existence, as well.

Thank you. (Applause.)

The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you, Madam Chair. 425 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 Commissioner, again, trying to work within the parameters that you have been handed, I understand your mission here, but I have got some specific questions in reference to response time. And I wasn't trying to be funny when I said that you don't plan a fire when it happens. Because the number of dwelling fires have been reduced, I really need to understand what effect will occur to response time when -- and I will use this scenario, I think I know enough. An engine is a piece of equipment that responds that has 500 gallons of water on it that, in most cases, is successful in extinguishing a fire almost immediately, they don't have to hook up to a hydrant. Am I right? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's correct.

Let me give you a scenario now. What happens to a particular 426 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 location that becomes a ladder and a medic? What happens to response time? I am talking about a firefighter through the door with water. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Ladders carry a certain amount, although minimal, in terms of hose lines. It is possible for them to hook up to a hydrant and start -- you want the answer or not?

Yes, I want the answer. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Okay. If you want the answer, you are throwing me off based on your body language. And I recognize I shouldn't worry about your body language.

That's part of being a Councilman. I will stand in the corner. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: All right. So it is possible for you to go into service and do that. It is certainly less than ideal. Look, it is as simple as A, B, C. You can't do more with less. Now, we are 427 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 talking about doing the same thing we are doing, which is responding to automobile fires, we are talking about structure fires, we are talking about all the other things where danger can be present for either a person or a firefighter, a person that is, you know, in peril or something. You will be delayed in terms of getting the water on the fire.

I can't be supportive of a budget that delays the response. And, I will be real honest, I am going to fight this until you retire. (Applause.)

And I didn't mean that with any disrespect. What I am I meant, Commissioner, just for the record, is, you are out of here in a few months. And I will fight that with you until you do leave, or whoever comes to take your place. Because the bottom line here is that my constituents will be affected by this plan. 428 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 And you are on the record saying it is going to take more time. It is going to take more time to extinguish a fire that requires water at locations where there are only ladders and medic units, because it is going to take more time to hook up to a hydrant than it would if an engine company showed up that had water. Am I right or wrong? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I would say generally you are right.

So let's talk about response in general. If you are waiting for an engine company that's now deployed blocks further 17 away and has to respond, that's going to be a 18 longer response, also, than it would if there 19 were an engine ladder in each of these 20 firehouses along with a medic unit; am I 21 right? 22 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, you 23 threw a hypothetical in there, and it dealt 24 with 25 blocks away. 25 And I don't know in any of the data 429 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 that I have looked in that it would create such a scenario as that. I will say that you have about half as many ladder companies as you have engine companies. That's what you have right now. Over the last several years, we have seen a reduction in the number of people in this city. You have seen a reduction in the number of firefighting equipment at the same time. I mean, we had closures before that I have been around for. I haven't seen a firehouse open up again. That's why in any plan that I have anything to do with, I am convinced that the way to deal with it is to not cut any fire stations. However -- you are aware of it, I am aware of it -- I am given a budget, I am given less resources. Now, the only reasonable response to deal with that is to try to convert the department or transition the department in a different way than we are right now. You know, the fact is, if you have a 430 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 budget that does not support enough to put all of your engines and all of your ladders in place, and at the same time respond to the changing needs of the citizens which deal with the EMS, then you have some choices to make, all of which may be bad choices. But it is the most reasonable way of dealing with these, I believe, if you have to have a less amount in your budget. So that's really what we are talking about. We are talking about fewer dollars. And since we have fewer dollars, in order for us to respond to the needs of dealing with the present budget, which, as I understand it, is $227.7 million less, so we have a deficit that we are dealing with. At the same time, the Fire Department is given numbers that say we have to be part of that correction, as well as everybody else does. And, so, therefore, that's really what this plan deals with.

Commissioner, how much money do you need put back in the budget to restore it to full service? 431 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: 13.8 million.

The whole 13.8. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: The whole 13.8 million. The fact is, if you really wanted to do that and restore that, and you really have to still consider that the fact is --

Commissioner, isn't most of that payment to the DROP? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, you have about a 9 million that we would anticipate would be payment for the DROP.

I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: About 9 million of that would be payment for the DROP.

That's not 13. That's not the real number, then. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, it depends on how you want to count the real number. I think that's an expense we have to pay. If we have to pay it, we have to get it from someplace. So, therefore, you have to 432 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 the million in there in order for you to pay it out.

But isn't that a 5 one-time payment? 6 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's a 7 one-time payment. But, you know, other people 8 following you are going to deal with the DROP, 9 as well.

We will have to talk more. I am going to start looking under some rocks to get you your 13 million, because it is out there. (Applause.)

Madam President, can I finish one more question?

Yes. Quickly, please.

I am always brief, Madam President. A scenario. You respond to a vehicle accident at an intersection. Two insured vehicles are involved in a collision, medic response, fire company response. 433 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 Have you implemented a program where we recover those expenses from those two insured vehicles that were involved in the accident for that response? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We don't get anything from an accident other than when we take somebody to the hospital. If we take someone to the hospital, they get a bill.

But why, if two insured vehicles, you go to do a wash-down, gasoline tank breaks, two fire engines respond to that location -- we are looking for revenue here. Two insured vehicles now. I am not asking anybody to write a check to you. Two insured vehicles, Adams and the Boulevard, a piece of your equipment shows, you do a wash-down, you cut the battery terminals, you do whatever. Why shouldn't we go after the insurance? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Probably the same reason we don't go after the insurance 434 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 for a house fire. Two insured houses, one insured house, whatever it is, we don't go after that, either. What we do is, if somebody in an accident goes to the hospital or we treat them in some way, we send a bill for that. We don't send it for the response to cutting the battery cables or wash-downs or any of those kinds of things; no different than we do if we respond to a house fire and the person is insured or not. You know, I mean, the fact is, what we do is, we go and we do whatever we have to do to render the situation safe, but we only bill for medical emergencies.

Could you look into what other cities may do in this scenario? Now, I am talk not talking about the house fire. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Your question was clear, and I hope my response was just as clear. If you are asking me to look into it to see if there is a way to do that, I will be 435 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 happy to do that.

I would like to see that. Because we are talking about cutting services in this city. And if there are insured vehicles, I will bet you the tow truck that toes it away gets paid. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I bet you you are right. I bet that's why they are in the that business, and so forth. But the fact is, no, I haven't looked at that before. You asked me to look at it, I will be happy to look at it.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Ramos.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Back in late February members of the City Council were briefed on the budget status of the city. Back then we were told that we were facing a deficit of around $150 million or so. 436 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 7 million. And when we were briefed then, it was estimated that you were going to be asked, meaning the Fire Department, to cut back between 7 and 10 million dollars. On April the 19th, today, you are cutting back 13, almost close to 14, million dollars. And as has been stated here this afternoon, there is a chance that you might be asked to cut back some more. Because now we are not going to pay the million, we are 15 not going to ask PGW to pay us back the $18 16 million that they owe us; and there is going 17 to be a surcharge for water, you know, in our 18 water bills, and you are going to have to pick up part of that cost. So, at least that's my understanding of it; I could be wrong. So I think that the statement that you made in your opening statement, that no 23 department personnel will be laid off, is probably not going to be so, and that is a concern of mine. 437 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 And it seems as though we are replacing firefighters with EMS personnel. And all due respect to EMS personnel for the good work that they do in the profession, I believe a firefighter is not replaceable and should not be replaced by EMS personnel. And I know that if an EMS personnel is in, you know, another part of the city, which I know in fact it does happen, that by the time they get to their call, that person that needed to get out of that house or needed to be moved out of a house, whether it was in a fire or not, might not survive. And simply because our firefighters are trained to do so many life-saving things, besides put out fires. So I am concerned that this budget says we are going to replace our firefighters, which I believe they are not replaceable, with EMS personnel, and that I have a concern now that this cutback that you have been asked, Mr. Commissioner, is probably going to get bigger. And I think that then you are going to have to take a look at layoffs. 438 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 Having said that, I also may have concern with the talks that your department is having with the union, with the firefighters union, how those talks are coming along. The union is owed the respect to be talked to. Because they represent members, they are the front line of concerns that members have. So those are my concerns, Mr. Commissioner, about this budget that you are presenting today. One, that I think you are probably going to be asked to cut back some more. Two, that you are probably going to be put in a position to have to lay off, and I have a very serious concern about that. And, thirdly -- and I pose this as a question -- what's going on with your talks or the department's talks with the union? 8. I did see the budget grow, the budget deficit grow, in terms of its 439 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 7 million. We right now have about 173 people less than we otherwise would have had before we got into this whole thing about whether or not we were going to be seeing cuts or not. 8 million, is what I think. I hope that we see a number that is far less than that. In fact, I hope we don't see any cuts at all. But if we have to take the cuts, I hope it goes back somewhere near the original proposals, which was somewhere around 7 million or so. So, and if that happens, then we certainly won't see any kind of layoffs. I believe that since we will not do any hiring during any of these talks or anything like that, that we will be able to do this without anybody being laid off. And it is certainly something that I don't want to see, any layoffs in the Fire Department. And I don't want to see any cuts at all. 440 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 But if we have to cut, I hope it is closer to the original number, which was somewhere between that and 10.

And I 5 certainly hope it is closer to the 7, if we 6 have to take any cuts at all. 7 These have not been discussed with the union. We have had no discussion with the union. I haven't even so much as put this plan in front of the Managing Director, so he doesn't even know what firehouses would be affected. That's something that I will have to present to him. And then he, in turn, will either agree or disagree or tell me to go back to the drawing board before those things are presented to the Mayor. So when that happens, I suppose that we will end up coming back before you. And then we will make some indications as to which firehouses, which neighborhoods, which districts are going to be changed in some way.

Why haven't you talked or -- I don't mean you directly, if it is in any other ways, through our attorneys or 441 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 our labor relations people -- why haven't you talked to the union representing your firefighters? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Mainly because that the plan has not been approved by the Managing Director or the Mayor. And I think that before we do any of those discussions, we will get that approved through them.

Is that an Administration policy or is that your way of working? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I don't know that the Administration has a policy when it comes down to that. This is a new territory that we are talking about here. We haven't been talking about doing these kind of cuts in the past, and so forth. So this is all new for everybody.

Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. I just wanted to go on the record, as well. I have been a union representative 442 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 and a construction worker until I came to City Council, so I cannot let my firefighters union stand alone in this issue. And the firefighters of this city have done a tremendous service to our city, including yourself, Mr. Commissioner. And, at least from my position, is that I will not, you know, let the firefighters stand alone in this battle. (Applause.)

The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I am sure that is greatly appreciated by everybody here. And I don't want you to misunderstand anything that I am saying, but at least you gave the impression that perhaps that firefighters were in some way more needed than EMS personnel. And I will tell you that I think they both have their place, and I would find it hard-pressed for me to say one was greater than the other. What I can tell you is that, in all 443 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 of my dealings with wrestling with a plan -- because it is no fun in this -- that what we see is a reduction in the number of fires and we see an increased number in the calls for emergency medical services. And what we find is that more and more people are getting sick, more and more people are needing our service, and we have to respond to that in some way. And as onerous as this is -- and it is certainly not something I would have asked for -- the fact is, if we have to do cuts, we still are going to be plagued with the problem of more and more people calling for emergency medical services; and, therefore, we need to be able to respond to that. And I would find that those people that work for us, who are paramedics, are of really great value to the citizens of this city, and I just want to make sure that's clear.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. 444 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, you were incorrect in one statement, and that is that every department in the city had to take a hit. Well, in fact, the Mayor's Office budget has gone up pe4rcent and its payroll 11 has gone up 15 percent. And I am wondering, you know, what value this Administration places on fire service, when they can increase their own budget and payroll, while reducing the support and resources that go to, I think, probably the most important department in the city. And that's the one that has -- (Applause.)

So not everybody is feeling the pain. Council is feeling the pain. You are feeling the pain. Second Floor is not feeling too much pain. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, I am 445 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 sure feeling pain.

Well, I know. I wish you were a little more angry, though, at the Administration for doing it. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, wait a minute. How angry do you want me to be? The fact of the matter is, I work for the Mayor, I work for the Managing Director, and --

You work for us. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's right. And I am given a budget, and I do the best I can with that particular budget. I don't know what somebody expects here in terms of scars. I have got enough scars.

Well, I expect a little fight with them about some of what they are doing to this department. And I am curious as to what was happening -- (Applause.)

How much money 446 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 does this department turn over to the city General Fund as a result of its collections on medical services and transportation and service to the citizens? How much money? I understand we turn money back to the city. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Over what period of time? I think if you go --

Year, two years. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We started collecting for EMS in 1989. And we differ on this amount. He says it is 160 million. I think it is more like 175 million. But somewhere about that.

Last two years? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No, not in the last two years. We are right around that $20 million mark in terms of our collections.

So we turn back $20 million or so to the city every year to the General Fund. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, not quite that. 447 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 There is a chart that's in here. I can go by the chart.

Just a round figure. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Round figures, over the last couple of years you are talking about that $20 million range.

Speaking for myself, I think it is extremely unfair that a department that turns $20 million back to the city needs to eat a $13 million cut, especially when it affects the public safety of the citizens. And I think that that is really unconscionable, considering we are allowing PGW, that mess, not to give us our 18, but we are forcing million still out of this 19 department in order to pay for the stuff that 20 is just some of it is unreasonable. I mean, you know, 11 percent increase in the Mayor's Office does not make any sense to me, when the Fire Department of the City of Philadelphia is making $20 million a year for this city, and PGW is throwing 448 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 money down the toilet, they get absolved for their million, but we are still stuck with 4 giving the 20 million back. 5 I mean, I know you don't have an 6 answer to that. But I think you can 7 understand how that really just kind of grates 8 on people, and grates on me and other members 9 of this Council. 10 It is a disgrace what's happening, 11 considering how efficiently you run this 12 department. I mean, you wouldn't be turning 13 that $20 million back unless you were doing 14 your job and doing it well. 15 But that does not mean that now, on 16 top of that, we need to take a 25 percent hit 17 in ladder companies and a 7 percent hit in the 18 engine companies. It is just not fair to the citizens. (Applause.)

It is not fair to the citizens, but I also don't think it is fair to the firefighters. My question is, with a percent 25 cult in ladder companies -- ladder companies 449 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 primarily are responsible, as I understand it, for aerating the building, opening up the roofs, getting the smoke out, kind getting up out on top of the building to help with the engine companies, who bring the water in and then extinguish the fire, get the smoke out of the building. Is that my understanding? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: The first duty, though, is rescue.

So they are going to get into the building, open up the building, aerate the building, and so forth. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Look for the bodies. Rescue is the first thing that they do. They do all those thing you say, the most important of which is to go in for rescue.

Is there a possibility that on a hypothetical dwelling fire, for example, that we would have less people on that fire ground in that dwelling as a result of the closing or ending of certain ladder companies and having less people on the fire scene initially? 450 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No. 3

So we are going to have the same number of people. These people, when ladder companies are being closed or terminated, are those people being assigned to other ladder companies? Are they going to be additional people on apparatus going to the fire? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I am trying to figure out the easiest way to explain this to you. The first part of your question deals with whether or not you are going to have fewer people on a particular fire. The answer to that is, no. 17 And this simply means that they will be coming, some of them will be coming, from further away.

But I guess the initial response, the initial response will be the same number of people? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Will be the same number of people, except some in some sections of the city that would be affected by 451 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 this would have to come from further away.

How much further away on average? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Probably less than a mile, in most cases.

See, my concern is -- and I know it is your concern, too, because I know you are a firefighter, you are a life-long firefighter, and I am not trying in any way to denigrate what you have done. I think you have gone a pretty good job. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Thank you.

I just get concerned when our people are in those buildings, and we lose one, and we can't find somebody, and somebody is hanging from a joist somewhere or somebody is laying in a pool of water because they had a backdraft that knocked them into it, do we have enough people on the ground in that building to pull our people out and to look for that kid who is hidden in the closet because the smoke is too much? I mean, aren't we going to have less 452 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 people to do what needs to be done, and we are running the chance of losing our own people and losing a citizen? And I know that's something that it is important to you. But I also know that it seems to me that we are going to have less people, we are going to have less people in this department. Do we have a class planned for next year, any classes? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We graduated a class. I think it would be foolish, under the present circumstances, for me to add anybody that may end up being laid off. I am trying, as one of the things in this, is to make sure that I don't lay anybody off. So, to me, it makes no sense in hiring a class, and then getting them in and then having to lay them right off.

We are going to lose 200 or so people as a result of attrition, aren't we? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's 453 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 right.

So we are going to have 200 people less, potentially, next year? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's right.

So we will have less firefighters? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's right.

So how are we going to staff at the same level, when we have 200 less people? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, it depends on what you call staffing at the same level. The fact is, if you have 200 people less, you are affected in some way by it. It simply means we wouldn't have as many engines and as many ladders as we presently have.

And as many people. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: That's right. 454 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 You have 200 less people. And, just rounding it off for this conversation, you have less engines and less ladders. But the companies that respond to the fire, you would get the same number of people that we do presently at that particular fire ground. But in some cases where you have closed an engine or closed a ladder, you have to bring people, in order to get the same amount of engines, the same amount of ladders on location as you have now, from further away. And there are some cases where they would have to come from further away. Not in all cases, because we still have a number of engines and a number of ladders throughout this city. But some people would come from further away; therefore, you have to do things differently. This is a very aggressive department. We do interior firefighting. We try to make sure that we exercise every safety 455 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 precaution that we can so that we don't get anybody hurt. Look, if you have less people, and if they have to come from further away, you have to do things much differently. You can't be as aggressive going in there.

Well, that's not good news. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No. No, it isn't.

If my house is on fire, and you are less aggressive coming to get me, I have some real concerns about that. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Councilman, I am as concerned as you are, and I know you recognize that.

I know you are. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: And I know you recognize this is not a good news day. This is not a good news day.

No. 23 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: But the fact is, if I am given a budget, and I am expected to reduce the budget, the only realistic way 456 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 of me doing it, that I am aware of, is to reduce the number of engines, reduce the number of ladders, add back some medic units so that we can take care of what the obvious needs are in this, which is to respond to the medical emergencies, along with fires.

Do we have statistics on what the average row house fire, how long it lasts? I know it is not an exact science, but we must have some experience in numbers. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We do. And it is hard to answer that in its totality, so I am going to answer it in part this way. From the time that we receive an alarm to the time we get on location is roughly five minutes. Now, some people calculate that in a different way, but I am calculating that from the receipt of the call to time on location. The average time total for a fire to be placed under control, average time -- because some may go on for hours, some way even go on for days -- but the fact is, 457 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 average is about minutes, from the time that you make the phone call until the time it is placed under control. Now, "under control" generally means that it is not going to, you know, spread past that, and so forth. But that's generally what you are talking, about minutes before we are sure 10 we completely got it, we don't need anymore 11 equipment. 12

And the concern 13 that I have -- and I know you share it -- is 14 that I understand that the initial moments of 15 the fire, the initial time that you get there, 16 is the most critical time in saving lives and 17 in keeping our people safe. 18 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Absolutely.

So the distance issue will extend that time of response, to a point where statistically, or percentagewise, the increase in possibility of lost life or injuries both on the part of citizens and firefighters has to be increased. (Applause.) 458 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, that's absolutely generally true. However, if you have a piece of equipment in the station, somebody will be on location. Now, look, I'm not going to tell you that it is ideal. I mean, if you were to ask me what was ideal, I probably would add back some more equipment and I probably would still expand EMS, and that kind of thing. But that's not what we have here. (Applause.)

I know I have gone over my time, but I just want to say one thing. And this is not your fault. What do you -- and you can give me an honest answer, you can give me an answer; or if you choose not to, that's fine -- what do you view, as the Commissioner of this department, our role of City Council is in this process? I mean, I know the Mayor may think differently, the Managing Director may think differently. But what do you think our role 459 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 is in this process? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I think your role is to respond to your constituency primarily. And I think part of that constituency is right behind me here, which are firefighters. And so what I hope you do is to recognize the record that you are aware of in the Fire Department, I hope you recognize what the needs are that you are currently aware of and have been aware of for some time, and that you make a conscious decision to support the Fire Department and support the constituents of this city. That's what I see your role as being.

That's pretty well stated. And the problem that we have, which is not your making, is that we are probably not going to know what the locations of these closures are until after we are expected to pass this budget. And don't comment, because you don't have to. That is ridiculous. 460 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 This Board of Directors of this 3.4 or 3.3 billion dollar company doesn't get told about major decisions until after we are supposed to vote on a budget. And then we will tell you, then we will tell you which ladder companies, which engine companies, what neighborhoods. It is absolutely insane. I can't respond to our constituents, we can't respond to our constituents, we can't respond to the people who work for us, because we don't even know what's closing until well after the budget has already been passed. And that will not go over well, I hope, with the majority of the members of this Council. Because I think when it comes to issues like firefighting, like police services, and things like that, public safety, we should know what's going on before John Street, Phil Goldsmith, and Harold Hairston decide what's going going to happen. I mean no disrespect. I know you are working within the parameters you are required to work within. But that is just not fair to this body, it is not fair to the 461 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 citizens. And I can tell you, if we knew what was closing now, this room would be a lot more crowded than it is today, and there would be a lot more people upset. (Applause.)

Commissioner, I do appreciate your career, I do appreciate your contributions. I meant no disrespect to you. When I get emotional about this issue, I am sure you can understand why. And I appreciate your patience in answering the questions. Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Thank you. And none taken.

Councilman Rizzo. I really wish you would be a little brief.

Real short. Commissioner, I think this member of Council was misled by the Administration. Because many times I heard the Administration saying that there would be no 462 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 cuts in Fire, no cuts in Police. No cuts in Police, now we are hearing cuts in Fire. I had personal conversations -- and I am not going to name names -- where I was assured there would be no cuts in Fire, no 7 cuts in Police. I believe that they snuck this one in on us here at the eleventh hour. Again, I will not be supportive of this budget until I know exactly how my constituents will be served by the Fire Department. I have a question about the way we do business in the Fire Department. Tell me about cross-training. Why can't paramedics -- is there such a thing as a firefighter that's a paramedic, a paramedic that can fight a fire? Why do we have to have this line in the sand? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I have never looked at it as though it was a line in the sand. Two different jobs altogether, as far as I am concerned. One deals with the medical aspects 463 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 of a constituent's problems, and the other deals with the extinguishment of fire. I personally like the idea of keeping them separate. There may be some people around the country who disagree with that, and they are certainly free to do that. But the way I see it, the best paramedics are ones that are paramedics, that deal with the medical aspect of it. And the best firefighters are the ones that are strictly firefighters. I think that's the best way to keep it.

Fine. I just wanted to know. For the record, are there any, could you elaborate, are there any major fire companies that do cross-training? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Sure.

Who? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Phoenix, for one. You know, they use a different system and so forth. But the system that we have, if you 464 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 check it against other systems, I think you will find that we have got one of the finest systems anyplace in the country.

If you had cross-trained paramedics and firefighters, would your decision be less complicated today? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: First of all, I don't want that. So, I mean, I don't like those systems that have the cross-training. I like what we have. So if I were forced to do something like that, obviously I would have a different set of facts. But, I don't like it.

Well, I hope they don't force you to do that, like they forced you to accept this budget. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco for some very brief questions. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Just one final brief question. And, again, thank you, Commissioner, for your comments and the manner in which you 465 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 have responded to our questions. On the issue of EMS again, the $21.2 million expected to -- that EMS will generate, which we now know goes to the General Fund, is the projection of 21.2 or three million dollars, is that based on the current fleet of medic units? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, yes. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So, as you testified, you would like to see the number of units increased by eight, which is approximately percent. 14 Would that equate into a higher -- I 15 see he is shaking his head no. Does that mean 16 we would be getting more revenues? 17 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It shouldn't 18 mean, that for this reason: The number of 19 incidents are the number of incidents. 20 The number of incidents won't increase because we have more medic units; our ability to respond to them will be better. If that somehow corresponds into more dollars, it will be strictly accidental. The likelihood is that the number of 466 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 incidents, though, will increase to some degree, as it has over the last the several years. In other words, if you look at the chart in the back, which starts at, I think, 108,000, and it goes to roughly 199,000, you can see that the number of calls has gone up every year. We anticipate that the number of calls will continue to go up. And, therefore, whatever that amount is, which is roughly around 4 to 5 percent a year, that, if anything, you will see an increase based on that, which is just a product of -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The demographics, aging population, things of that nature? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: And that's exactly it. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The 200 or so personnel that will be leaving this year, they are at the top of the ranking, I assume, rated as far as the years of service. They are sort of getting the maximum pay, for the most part. 467 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 When you replace those, when and if you replace those, with 200 new firefighters, which will be coming in at the lesser rate, is that being calculated anywhere in this discussion? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We have calculated it about every way we can calculate it. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I just needed to know for the record. I'm sure you did. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We have calculated everything we can calculate. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So it is in there. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It is in there. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, again. Thank you, Madam President.

Commissioner, as I indicated earlier, I think this is a very, very serious issue. We will be asking you to come back at a later date because I don't think any of 468 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 4/19/04 us feel very comfortable with what has been presented to us today. And, hopefully, by that time you will be able to provide us with more information. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes.

Thank you. Thank you all very much for your patience. This committee will stand in recess until tomorrow, Tuesday, April 20, at 9:30. Thank you all very much. (Hearing adjourned at 5:45 p.m.) - - - 469 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Monday, April 19, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE _________________________ DEBRA A. WHITEHEAD