Mr. Boyer, that's cool. We just want to just get for the record clarity from the owners and --
It's all right. We just want to get clarity from the Administration --
I agree, because Councilman O'Rourke wanted to know about the wild swing which can be wild, but my notes were that they counted every job, including sometimes you come in and specialty contractors are not there that long.
Just have them break it down just for the record. That's all. The Chair recognizes Dr. Nina Ahmad.
Thank you, Council President. Thank you all on this panel for testifying very powerful testimony. I'll just take the idea that Ryan Boyer put out of dreaming big, right. We are the sixth largest city in the country and that status can be slipping, is slipping because our population is going down. We are still considered the poorest big city in the top 10. So this is being agnostic to whether there's a project here or a project there, but the role of Building Trades specifically in addressing that poverty rate. That's what I'm really interested in. So I heard a lot about all the ways you're reaching out, all the different programs, Everybody Builds and the pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship jobs and then the actual jobs. I just wondered if you look at a historical perspective let's take the last five years or even seven years, how long have all these efforts been under way and what have we seen as an impact of all of this excellent programming that has been happening to reach people? And I see people right on this panel talking about that. So that will give us a sense of going forward regardless of what projects we're talking about, because that's what Mr. Boyer said. How have we done and what are we looking to do and how real is that? That's one of the questions I have.
Well, we have to look at 2020 and 2021 as outliers because of COVID. 2023 -- we started most of these programs in 2023, end of 2022. I think that we've had numbers that I'm not prepared to talk to you about, but I will give you numbers. But I will say parenthetically that we've gone from about percent to about 28.5 24 percent in that amount of time. So we want to be in the 40s. We think that's a great place for us to land. That's our goal, but they've had impact. I mean, the CARP program, which was not said, is the CARP program only take first- generation carpenters, so your grandfather, your uncle, no one your family could have been a carpenter before. So it's creating new opportunities. Rosie's Girls and WINC, we're the best in the country at recruiting women construction workers. There is no one better than Philadelphia in doing that. There's no one focused like we are. And we believe that we can get you those numbers, but we believe they pay dividends. You don't get to 50 percent at Live Casino on the workforce if the workforce wasn't there. And those aren't a phony percent where we just put people on the job. They were people that actually worked, actually moved to another job --
I ain't want to say that. I wanted you to say it. 63 percent workforce, workforce. That's what we do. When we make our commitments, we keep them. And guess what, Live Casino they didn't leave. Labor Local 332 represent the maintenance workers there who get a living wage with pension and benefits. (Applause.)
These places -- we don't intend on leaving once we build that. We have UNITE HERE, we have SEIU and we have the trades that's going to maintain those buildings on an everyday basis. That's just what's going to happen. So it's not only those construction jobs, but it's also the permanent jobs to keep the facility running.
Second part to my question is the cultural competency in how we reach our communities in recruiting. And so, things like language access, things like understanding different communities have different ways of approaching jobs and training. Do you have that built into your outreach to recruit and what do those numbers look like outside of our Black and White communities? And the other communities I'd like to know what sort of efforts additional because of the cultural competency bit that is built into your outreach?
I will say that our outreach is tailored to African American and Latinos. We've not done as well in the Asian community as we probably should. That's a growing community. We also recruit from Eastern European people that's coming here from the war, so we have done a great job with those communities. Some of the smaller ethnic communities not so much. I'm not going to lie, but we have bilingual throughout Everyone Builds. Andrina is a Latino running that. We have Latino instructors in each of our training schools that are bilingual, so the workforce in Philadelphia is mainly made up of -- the construction workforce, Latino, African American and White so we focus on that. But if we get some subcultures and you have some ideas, we're willing to work. We've in the past with the Convention Center specifically tried to work with the Asian community and it just did not work. But I also have a meeting planned with John Chin to try to get around that issue and try to address that issue, but it is a blind spot that we have and I can admit that.
I would be more than happy to connect with you in communities. There's a lot of poverty in many of the Asian subcommunities and we need to address that, and jobs are the best way to address that. So whatever it takes. I think making sure this pie is big enough, we're not cutting the pie into smaller pieces, but we're enlarging the pie is something I look for, whatever the efforts result in, wherever they result in. So I appreciate that you're willing to make that commitment. And as the only Asian American Native Pacific Islander person on this Council, it is my duty to make sure that I put that front and center. We're 8 percent of the population. It's not insignificant, and I think making sure that piece of the pie reaches everyone is a serious concern.
So thank you for your advocacy and you're willingness to help. There is a need. We don't have the relationships that's strong enough, but I will definitely have my team follow up with you.
Thank you very much. I want to thank all of you for taking time out of your schedule and being here today. And again, Leader Boyer of the Building Trades, as always continue to keep on doing a good work and advocating on behalf of the people here in the city of Philadelphia most in need and building this great city of Philadelphia. Thank you very much. (Applause.) The Chair recognizes Councilmember Nina -- I'm sorry, Councilmember Rue Landau.
Sorry. I thought my -- I thought the button was pushed the whole time.
I promise to be quick. One, I want to thank all of you for your hard work in diversifying the Building Trades. It's a long time coming. It's a lot of hard work and I appreciate the work you're doing. Could you take one second to just break down the 9,000 jobs of which unions you believe or who's getting the most amount of work or where it's coming from? Thank you. Is it in there?
I can't break it down. But historically carpenters is usually -- the carpenters are the biggest part of the job, followed by laborers and electricians depending upon the scope of work that we flip one and two, and then plumbers and it goes down to the specialties, but those are the top ones.
Yeah, the carpenters are usually because they're in on the framing and things, so the carpenters are always going to be the most populous and it's either the laborers or the electricians depending on the size of the electrical packages and then it goes to the mechanicals from there. Thank you.
Okay. So, Layla, we will be calling Mungu tomorrow and having a conversation with TJ and folks about this project. Thank you. Thank you very much, y'all. Appreciate it. Next, we have up SEPTA. Come on up SEPTA, looking like the Feds. They came deep. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
So we're going to jump right into this. Hello. How are you doing today? Hey, Wendy. How are you?
Interim Director Scott, I'm going to start off this way. Before we get started though, we want to thank publicly Wendy Harvey- Green for our representation of SEPTA, all things SEPTA. We know there's a new regime, Scott, and we get it. We know you're an interim in terms of the changing of leadership, right. We just want to be clear that Wendy's our person over there doing a good job representing SEPTA. We pick up the phone when she calls at all times of the night making sure that we're advocating on behalf of SEPTA, so I just want to acknowledge and give her flowers publicly. All right, Wendy?
And I'm sure you'll hear that from other members when they get a chance to take the floor, but I like to start off and kind of set the tone. We appreciate you. But I would like to turn the microphone over to you. Introduce yourself and begin your testimony.
So good afternoon, Council President Johnson and members of City Council. I'm Wendy Green-Harvey, Manager of Local and Community Affairs for SEPTA. I'm joined today by Scott Sauer, the Interim General Manager for SEPTA; Liz Smith, SEPTA's Chief of Staff and Gretchen Wisehart, our Deputy general counsel. We're here in response to the Council's invitation to give testimony about the package of ordinances and resolutions for the proposed development of 76 Place as the new arena for the Philadelphia 76ers. Now, before I begin I want to express SEPTA's sincere appreciation for the relationship we have developed over the years with Mayor Parker and her Administration and with many members of this Council. The City of Philadelphia has many champions for public transit. In the weeks and months leading up to these hearings, SEPTA was privileged to meet multiple times with the Administration and with many individual Councilmembers about this project. SEPTA has been treated with great respect. And again, we are grateful. We appreciate the opportunity to testify today because we are keenly aware of the Council's commitment to a full and fair public discussion about this important project, which has the potential to be transformative for Philadelphia. We will offer no opinion about whether the project should or should not be approved. That's a policy decision best left to the Mayor and this Council. Our job is merely to provide you with facts about how the project would impact public transit in the city and region. At the conclusion of our testimony, we are happy to respond to your questions. With that, I'll pass it over to Scott Sauer.
Thank you, Wendy. Good afternoon, Council President, members of the Committee of Whole. My name is Scott Sauer and I'm the Interim General Manager of SEPTA. I've served SEPTA for 34 years, most recently as its Chief Operating Officer since 2022. Joining me this morning are Liz Smith, SEPTA's Chief of Staff and Gretchen Wisehart, SEPTA's Deputy general counsel. We're here to testify in connection with the package of ordinances for the redevelopment to create a new arena known as 76 Place. I want to thank you for the chance to testify. We at SEPTA are excited for the opportunity that this project represents for our city and region as well as its potential to revitalize public transit as a preferred way to travel into Philadelphia. We've been asked to consider how 76 Place would impact public transit and specifically what it would take to meet the project's stated goal of achieving a 40 percent transit split. In other words, 40 percent of the patrons to this arena would travel by public transit. At the outset, I want to echo what Wendy just said, SEPTA takes no position on whether the project should move forward. Our job is to consider its impact on transit during construction and thereafter on the daily transit operations for SEPTA. There's no question that 76 Place presents transformational opportunities for East Market Street, but it also presents challenges for public transit both during the construction of the arena and in providing the additional service that will be needed to handle the influx of inbound and outbound passengers that a new arena will bring to Center City. These impacts carry a significant cost to SEPTA, only a fraction of which, less than 20 percent would be covered by the expected increase in fare revenue. The reality is that SEPTA simply cannot assume these new costs within the framework of its operating budget. As you know, SEPTA's already confronting the reality of $153 million operating budget deficit in the current fiscal year. This deficit broadens to $240 million every year thereafter. This alone will have a devastating impact on the future of transit throughout the region unless we are successful in securing additional dedicated public transit funding. I want to pause here and offer thanks to Mayor Parker, her Administration and this Council for your tireless support in the fight for additional transit funding. You've been true champions for transit and we're very appreciative for your leadership in securing an increase in City funding for SEPTA operations. In this year's budget at the same time SEPTA has also proposed a package of fare hikes and potential service cuts, and we're also currently negotiating with two unions, including the Transport Workers Union Local 234, for new contracts. Unfortunately, these challenges make it clear that SEPTA cannot shoulder the burden of expanded transit costs at 76 Place, which would be an addition to the existing fiscal challenges I just described. That said, we remain willing to work with the City and the team to identify new ways to reduce these impacts wherever we can. I'm going to turn it over to Liz Smith to walk through some more of our analysis and conclusions, including a brief summary of the key points of the 76 Place impact assessment conducted for SEPTA by Econsult Solutions.
Thank you, Scott. Good afternoon, President Johnson, Vice-Chair Richardson and members of the Council. My name is Liz Smith and I am the Chief of Staff of SEPTA. I'm going to pick up on Scott's comments and provide additional facts and context for your consideration. As Scott said, SEPTA is excited for the opportunity that 76 Place could bring to the region and specifically to Center City. It has the potential to be a transformative development for both the City as well as for SEPTA. But 76 place also poses challenges. As set forth in the impact assessment conducted for SEPTA by Econsult Solutions, which we have released publicly in conjunction with our testimony today. These challenges fall into three categories: First, construction of 76 Place could cause significant disruption for SEPTA's Jefferson Station and will impose costs on SEPTA that are not accounted for in the current plans. This is a large scale six-year construction project that would be built directly on top of Jefferson Station, which as you know is one of the busiest transit stations in Philadelphia and the eastern end of the Center City Commuter Connection Tunnel. During construction, SEPTA anticipates the potential for delays in service and disruptions on the system, including the possibility of a partial or complete closure of Jefferson Station at times. As previously stated, construction of the arena means removing the current roof over half of Jefferson Station and replacing it with a portion of the arena structure. In addition, construction-related congestion could slow several high frequency bus routes in Center City. These delays could result in increased cost to SEPTA as well as drops and ridership that will decrease our revenue. SEPTA will also incur increased personnel cost during construction related to handling these disruptions. Econsult Solutions ran the numbers and found that SEPTA's construction-related costs could total $20 million to $50 million over the six years of the construction process. SEPTA is committed to working with the Sixers on strategies to keep those impacts towards the low end of that range, if at all possible. I would like to take a minute to respond to suggestions that the report relies on outdated facts and assumptions. We certainly acknowledge that the findings are based on the best information available and that things will change as we all learn more going forward and plans progress. But to be clear, the report relies on the proposed impacts to Jefferson Station that the 76ers have presented to Philadelphia's Civic Design Review Committee. In fairness, the 76ers recently informed us that they may be able to make changes to the arena design plans that would reduce the impacts on Jefferson Station during demolition and construction. SEPTA's preliminary review of this new information indicates that it would not change the impacts in a meaningful way. That said, SEPTA remains willing to work with the Sixers to revise the estimated impacts as more information about the design changes becomes available. Reduced construction impacts mean reduced disruptions for our passengers, which is a win for everyone. Second, everyone agrees that the success of the arena depends on achieving a 40 percent transit mode split among arena patrons. As a result, SEPTA must increase service to handle the influx of riders as they come through our station. We estimate that we will need 20 additional trains every day on Regional Rail in the evening hours to handle the approximately 150 events that are anticipated every year at 76 Place, plus five additional buses on existing bus routes together with additional manpower within the station itself. The Econsult Solutions report estimates that the impact on daily operations will cost between $20 and $25 million annually. To be clear, this figure includes the impact of additional fare box revenue, which covers approximately percent of the cost of additional 13 service.
14 While SEPTA has provided 15 service to the venues in South 16 Philadelphia for the past several 17 decades, this proposed location is 18 unique as compared to the other 19 arenas in Philadelphia. The Sixers 20 estimate of a 40 percent transit split far exceeds the transit split for any other pro team in Philadelphia. The project envisions building an arena directly atop an active rail hub which has never been attempted before in Philadelphia's history. The arena would be cited directly above that hub of Rail 6 lines as opposed to the sports 7 complex, which is located at the end 8 of a single subway line. This is a 9 big difference because SEPTA cannot 10 stage trains in the middle of our 11 Regional Rail network, in other 12 words, at Jefferson Station as we 13 can at NRG Station and the Sports Complex. Third and finally, there is the question of the impact of the look and feel of Jefferson Station. Again, we acknowledge that the developer recently informed us that it intends to reduce the design impact as originally proposed, but no one disputes that building the arena could change the look and feel of the station. Design matters, particularly for a facility that seeks a designation as world class. Philadelphia is not the first city to confront these issues. Here are some examples where a collaboration between the City, team and transit agency resulted in a comprehensive transportation solution for an arena placed in a busy City Center. In Seattle, the NHL's Kraken paid for the renovation of what is now Climate Pledge Arena, which was completed in 2021. There the developer agreed to pay approximately 40 million dollar in direct payments to the city over the life of the project, creating a city transportation fund that supports transportation improvements in neighborhoods surrounding the arena. They also paid about $7 million to upgrade a monorail station near the arena. Closer to home, in 2021 UBS Arena at Belmont Park opened as the new home of the New York Islanders, and the team agreed to pay about $97 million towards the cost of $105 million light rail station next to the arena. In San Francisco, Chase Center included an extensive package of transportation improvements and mitigation measures such as a new light rail platform, an increased bus and light rail service on event days funded by a combination of sources, including local taxes projected to be generated directly by the new arena as well as developer contributions. And at Barclay Center in Brooklyn, which was built atop the Atlantic Avenue Subway Station, the developer is party to a transit improvement agreement with the MTA in New York that calls for the developer to build a new subway station entrance, a new fare control area, access stairs and other improvements. In each of these cities, transit was an integral consideration in the development of an arena and a vital element to the success of these projects. We can do the same thing in Philadelphia as well. SEPTA is committed to collaborating with the team and the City to make that happen here and we have already made progress in working together. I want to be clear however that we are not here with an ask for City or Council. We are not requesting funding for the specific dollar amounts we have provided on construction and operational impacts. Our purpose today has been to provide the facts and the numbers as we see them based on the best information available and to make it clear that the cost of these impacts cannot be borne by SEPTA. We think there is much to recommend 76 Place and what it potentially could mean for our city, our region and the revitalization of public transit as an essential element of Philadelphia's future. And with your help, SEPTA stands ready to work with all partners to make the project a success for the riding public. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify and I will now turn it over to Gretchen Wisehart to discuss the FTA approval process.
Thank you, Liz. Good afternoon, President Johnson, Majority Leader Gilmore Richardson and Committee of the Whole. My name is Gretchen Wisehart and I am Deputy general counsel at SEPTA. Each recipient of federal funding grants from the Federal Transit Administration is required to obtain FTA approval before any of the real property involved is modified by any arrangement that might adversely affect the federal interest. Jefferson Station was originally constructed --
Excuse me, Gretchen. I'm sorry. Could you speak more into the microphone so the recorder can hear you.
Oh, now I have to figure out where I was. Here we go. Jefferson Station was originally constructed and later improved with federal funds provided to the City and SEPTA which creates the federal interest that necessitates FTA review and approval. Seeking FTA approval occurs in a series of steps. SEPTA has already initiated the process of seeking approval by engaging the FTA in preliminary discussions regarding the applicable federal laws, regulations and directives, planning a course of action and considering potential impediment to completing the project review. Next, SEPTA must submit the terms and conditions to be agreed upon by all parties participating to ensure that the recipients and the developer do not commit themselves to propose terms that might be unacceptable to the FTA. And finally, FTA will formally review the proposal to ensure that all FTA requirements terms and conditions are met in that formal review. FTA must determine that all eligibility criteria are satisfied, including economic benefits and transit benefits, including SEPTA's continuing control over the transit property to ensure that it continues to serve its originally authorized purpose. The Econsult Solution studies performed on SEPTA's behalf are a necessary component in the application for FTA approval and it is also clear that SEPTA and the City must ensure that no harm will be done to the federal interest. In other words, that the everyday transit user's experience has not been degraded and that ridership is not detrimentally impacted. Late last month SEPTA learned that the developer now believes it may be able to build the arena without having to install any support beams or columns within Jefferson Station as was originally proposed. Assuming that the developer's new design proposal for Jefferson Station is feasible, it will still require FTA approval of the design changes. This concludes SEPTA's testimony. As both Scott and Liz said earlier, we're happy to answer your questions.
Thank you very much. Just a couple questions before I turn it over to my members. So the Econsult -- let's just go over the numbers real quick. The Econsult numbers that I have in front of me, the packet that was sent out, says there's $32 million construction costs between 2026 and 2031. I know you said between 20 million and 50 million in construction cost. So just give me an idea about the wide range between to 50? Is that demolition as a part of the numbers or where did the 20 to 50 million come from separate from what Econsult has given all of us?
Sure. So the 8 $32 million that you have in the 9 packet is an estimate of what the 10 potential impacts could be. We're 11 very early in the process. The 12 design plans are still at a 13 conceptual level so we had to make a 14 variety of assumptions to come up 15 with that $32 million estimate. We 16 looked at those assumptions that we 17 made -- 18
We don't have a plan that shows exactly how the arena will be constructed at this time, but we have started meeting with the Sixers already. In fact, we met yesterday afternoon. They walked us through an initial concept of how they may be able to construct the arena around our station and our live tracks. And so, the range really shows that it could be slightly cheaper than that 32 million. It could be more than that 32 million.
As this progresses and the design plans and construction plans get more and more detailed and closer to complete, we're committed to updating dating that impact number each time they present us with new plans.
Thank you very much. And also, for operational impact I think you said another number that's not the same as here which is $21 million operational impact. Would that be annually I would think to take care of the additional cost for additional ridership, correct?
Correct, that's an annual number. That's the cost of running service and staffing the station every year.
This is based upon the current frequency of trains that we have on Regional Rail around the time that the games or events at the arena would be ending. It's later in the evening, so between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m. We generally have trains every one to two hours at that time of night. That is not a frequency of service that will get people out of their cars and onto transit. We believe we need to provide service at least every 30 minutes, so that number is the addition of 5 additional trains to our schedule in 6 the later evening hours that gets us 7 to 30 minutes or better on our seven 8 most heavily-traveled lines as well 9 as the lines we feel will be most 10 heavily-traveled by Sixers 11 attendees. 12
Okay. And then next, I 14 know we talked about the 20 15 additional trains, five buses. I'm 16 a lifelong South Philadelphian so I 17 grew up on SEPTA. I know some 18 people say can Councilmembers take a 19 ride on SEPTA, but I grew up on 20 SEPTA. Never had a car until later years in my life so it's nothing new to me, I think, like most of us who in here. But nevertheless, I'm a big frequent fan of the Broad Street Line because I'm from South Philadelphia. So will you be adding additional rail cars along the Broad Street Line, which wasn't mentioned, as well as I'm assuming -- because you said additional Regional Rail 8 lines. So what comes in my mind -- 9 because Regional Rail, that's like 10 the suburbs, folks coming in. I'm 11 thinking more about Broad Street 12 Line and Market-Frankford Line. Can 13 we talk about if there would be 14 additional cost from ridership and 15 more rail cars along Market- 16 Frankford Line and Broad Street as a 17 part of your estimates as well 18 because that wasn't mentioned. 19 That's all. 20
Right. So luckily we have pretty good frequency still at that time of night on both Broad Street Line and Market-Frankford Line, trains every minutes. And so, when we looked at the number of folks that would be using the Market-Frankford line and the Broad Street Line, we feel at this point in time based on the information that we have that we have enough service and we have enough cars to be able to accommodate those patrons.
Okay. Glad you said that. And then give me an idea when you have the Broad Street Run, right, I know that's on Sundays, not a whole lot going on. But I know you run trains more frequently during the Broad Street Run to accommodate the massive amount of individuals participating in the race. Who pays for that?
So today SEPTA covers the cost of any additional service that we put out for Broad Street Run and for other events down at the South Philadelphia Stadium Complex. Now, we have in recent years struck sponsorship deals to cover fares for people riding, runners specifically, speaking to the Broad Street Run, for runners to use the system free of charge. But that's something relatively new just within the last say 5 to 10 years.
And as I'll just go through this process just doing the analysis, why wouldn't Blue Cross be responsible for paying for the ridership since they are the sponsor of the actual Broad Street Run as a private entity?
So as I said, the sponsorship typically comes from Independence Blue Cross. They sponsor the rides for their customers --
Okay. I just want to have that clear on the record in terms of comparing the two. And then also, Liz, you mentioned, which is interesting information, that in other cities there's already a partnership between the sports team and the transportation agency/entity. Give an example of those particular partnerships again just for the record.
Sure. So in all of the examples that I had mentioned, which were Seattle, New York, San Francisco and in Brooklyn, what we really saw in talking to them was a true partnership from the very outset of the idea of the arena, was very critical to coming up with a successful transportation plan. It really took everyone being at the table and the cities in those areas were also a crucial part of getting that transportation plan right.
Okay. Awesome. In San Francisco, there's a partnership with the Chase Center that includes public transit event tickets to anyone who buys a ticket to a game can automatically use that ticket for public transportation. Have any conversation like that happened with the Sixers?
Not as of yet. We would love to see something like that here in Philadelphia where your Sixers ticket just becomes your SEPTA transit ticket. We actually have the technology to do so today so it's not a far-fetched idea for us.
Okay. And I think that would alleviate some of the pressure of cars coming into the city. And I know earlier it was mentioned by the community from Chinatown in particular that traffic congestion and parking are key impediments to having a significant impact on that particular community. There's a variety of different other things I thought would be said, but what said more than anything was the traffic and the actual parking. They didn't say really small business impact. They didn't really say -- I mean they talked about gentrification and housing, but what I do know what was reiterated by John Chin at least two times or maybe three times was traffic impact as well as parking. And so, anything alleviating that goes a long way in terms of this project moving forward. And then the last part was, I know y'all are open to dialogue and kind having conversations right now. And I know the Sixers, I think they were asked and I asked them to continue talking to you. And if we have to do a callback and ask additional questions as opposed to having them here today and then we're doing rebuttals and going back and forth which I don't think would actually be productive, but we do know y'all are having conversations regarding this particular proposal. The only other thing that I have is just that I know y'all are in dire straits in terms of we want to make sure that TWU get a fair contract to be quite frank, right, because if there are no supported workers that's getting good wages and good health care, then SEPTA can't move forward, right. So that's one thing. But then also, we recognize that the state has a role to play as well, right, to step up and make sure they're supporting, which I believe is one of the best transportation agencies in the country. And then top it with all of that with making sure that this process is done in a fair way in terms of a burden and having an impact on SEPTA. But I also recognize that you want to be fair in the process and what's required of one should be required of all. So I'm just paying attention. And I do understand that -- Liz, you mentioned that, well, down in South Philadelphia we can make these decisions because it's not the same as operating in Center City, and I think that was mentioned by my colleague a few days ago to kind of show me the difference in the two. But I want to make sure at least if you're requiring one private entity to chip in and participate because there's increased ridership, it should be fair across the board. But this additional information just plays a role to kind of put things in focus. So thank you, Liz. With that being said, I am going to call on Councilmember Jamie Gauthier.
Thank you, Council President. Thank you so much to your whole team for being here today and thank you for everything that you do for the city and the region even in really tough times. I wanted to ask about the changes that you discussed making at having to make at Jefferson Station. Were you planning on making any of these changes to service at the station before the arena was proposed?
We don't have any formal plans to increase service on Regional Rail. What we do have is a very future-looking document that's called Reimagining Regional Rail that looks at how we could increase service over the next 30 years on Regional Rail. However, that is currently unfunded in our budget because we do not have additional operating dollars for it.
When were you planning to go ahead with those changes?
Okay. Got you. So it's correct to say that at this moment the only reason that SEPTA would be incurring the extra cost that we talked about is to accommodate the arena and it's accompanying traffic plan?
Okay. Great. Can you talk about adding extra trains and buses or is that just on game days or would that be daily?
So the plan is to do it daily, and the challenge is our inability to be able to stage extra equipment when on an as-needed basis being in the center of the line. There's just no place to store extra equipment, so we put them out there on a regular basis, daily basis.
Okay. Thank you. Considering SEPTA is projecting cuts to the overall system, how will the financial or operational focus on Jefferson Station and the arena or how could the potential financial and operational focus on Jefferson Station in the arena divert resources from other underserved neighborhoods and how does that fit with SEPTA's model for delivering equitable connectivity and accessibility throughout Philadelphia?
So if we find ourselves in a situation in 2031 with the arena opening and no other method to fund this service and basically being forced to fund it to support the 40 percent, our operating budget has to be balanced. So we would need to cut service elsewhere on the system to be able to provide this service.
Thanks. And lastly, do you have an opinion on who should cover these extra costs?
For the record, not us. In all seriousness, obviously you're still having this conversation with the Sixers. And I would think that also because of the current financial conditions that SEPTA is in, there's conversations with the folks in Harrisburg I would think, right. It has a $15 billion budget. And it's my thought hopefully to my friends in Harrisburg that we do work with, right, that there's a level of leadership that will address the deficit that particularly has an impact on Black and Brown families with the same level of energy that we fixed I-95 for the record. (Applause.)
The Chair recognizes Councilmember Jim Harrity.
Council President, thank you. Hello, everybody. Good afternoon. I have three questions. I'm just going to ask them all three at one time and then you can answer whatever you can get to. All right. So how is the loss of ridership during construction estimated, especially how it is possible to estimate things such as closure of tracks and platforms when construction details haven't actually been finalized yet? Two is given the City has publicly stated that long-term street closures will not be allowed, why does SEPTA expect bus routes to be detoured? And regarding expected costs, since the Econsult study indicates in a footnote that changes in the reconfiguration could reduce expected costs, what changes in SEPTA's assumptions would have the greatest impact in reducing the assumed cost? Did you get all that?
I think so. I'll answer the middle one first on the long-term street closures. That was something that again without an actual construction and construct ability plan, we did not have access to that information until recently. We were told by the Sixers last night or yesterday afternoon that they would be able to keep two lanes open on 10th and 11th Streets, which was music to our ears. So as long as that can be maintained, we'll certainly see less disruption on our bus lines during construction. I think for the other two questions it would be prudent for us to bring Econsult up since they did a lot of the detailed analysis for us. And they are here with us today. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Could you let Steve Mullin know that his former student said it's unfair that he doesn't come himself and present to members of Council, sir.
To answer the questions, the first was the loss of ridership during construction how did we estimate that. And that's based on assumptions about how much delay would be caused so the trains would run slower. They would take longer to get from one place to another and there are it's called well- established methods in the literature about how increasing travel time, slowing things down, affects ridership. And so, we just took those estimates of how much the delay would be caused, how much delay there was and applied that to ridership and that's the loss of ridership.
So these are all assumptions. So we all know the adage about assumptions, right? When you assume, you make an ass out of me and you, right?
I would say they're estimates based on the best available information using the best methods available to anybody.
The ridership information comes from SEPTA and the estimates of how things are impacted comes from the literature.
Beautiful. And regarding the expected costs since the Econsult study indicates in a footnote the changes in the reconfiguration could reduce expected costs. What changes in SEPTA's assumptions would have the greatest impact in reducing the assumed costs?
So the largest impact, construction impact, is the delay in service disruption. And if the trains aren't delayed and they're not disrupted and the station and platforms don't have to close in the way that we expect, that would significantly reduce the impact.
Okay. And then just one final question: So you said that they're going to be taking the top off, correct, and they are going to put the top back on with the new stadium above it, correct? And they are paying for that cost, right?
Thank you very much, Member Harrity. The Chair recognizes Majority Leader Katherine Gilmore Richardson.
Thank you. Thank you very much, Council President. And thank you to SEPTA not just for today, but for the work we've been able to do together regarding the Bus Revolution. I must give kudos to Leslie Richards for her work and her leadership and how we've been able to work together on that plan. So I'll start there and then go back to my other questions. If this process moves forward, how would the Bus Revolution be impacted with the new schedule you must keep? I think you mentioned five additional buses.
Yeah. So they would be in addition to our schedule. One of the things that we've spent a lot of time working with the Sixers on is what happens on 10th and 11th Streets, not just during construction but during operation, during an actual event what stays open. We do have frequent bus routes in Bus Revolution on those streets. What we have worked with them so far on, and again it's very early in the process, but they do believe there will be an ability to keep one lane of traffic open on each street during events and that would allow -- that would be open only to SEPTA vehicles as well as emergency vehicles.
Pardon me. You're referring to 10th and 11th Streets?
Okay. So you're saying one lane of traffic would be open?
Right, only -- during events. So this is just generally in the 30 minutes to an hour before an event and in that hour after an event gets let out where you get a crush of pedestrians coming out of the arena onto the surrounding streets. One of their original proposals was that 10th and 11th Streets would be temporarily shut down.
Oh, okay. So I see what you're saying. I'm thinking that they're one direction streets. So you're only going to get down there one way, you know, one lane?
So the original proposal was full closure. They've been able to change their proposal to one lane.
I see. Okay. And then very quickly for my second question, the 40 percent ridership number that we've been discussing at length, does that number include the stadium workers?
That only includes arena patrons. We don't have any data on the arena workers. We have data from the Sixers on where their ticketholders live. What we would love to see happen for arena workers, both those that are employed directly by the arena or by any of their vendors, is for them to be included in our current Key Advantage Program where an employer will give all of their employees an All Access Pass. We found that when they have that pass in their hands they use SEPTA instead of getting in their car to travel to and from work, so that would be something we would like to see from the Sixers for the arena employees.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Council President.
Thank you, Madam Leader. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Rue Landau.
Thank you, Council President. Another huge fan of SEPTA here. We appreciate you so much and we want you to continue growing and thriving in our city. I don't think I missed this, but I want to ask this particular question. All assumptions are that we would need 40 percent of the people to take SEPTA in order to not have mass congestion on our streets. What if you don't get any additional funding and we have an increase of people taking SEPTA but likely not the 40 percent? What does that look like for you guys? Can you handle what will be thousands more people coming to SEPTA without additional funding?
Again, are you talking about additional funding from the state for our current budget issues or additional funding for the service for the arena?
Well, we're getting that current budget. We'll figure that out.
Right, so if we don't get additional funds to provide that additional service for the arena, there's two options. I think the first option is we don't provide any additional service. We leave our Regional Rail frequency at trains every one to two hours. We don't believe that we will get that 40 percent transit split without better frequency on those trains. So we believe that it would be likely that we would not hit the 40 percent number. And according to the City's own traffic impact study, that would cause gridlock in the areas around the arena. As I mentioned earlier, the other option for that is if we don't get funding for that service but feel that we have to fund it because of that potential gridlock, then we're balancing that by pulling service out of somewhere else.
Okay. And then can you describe what you were just saying again about the 10th and 11th Street, what the newest expectation would be? I think I missed that.
Sure. So we've been meeting with the Sixers and the Administration for probably about the last year on this project. So one of the original points of discussion that we had with them was they had a proposal that primarily post-game, so what they've told us is that after a game ends or an event ends about 75 percent of all of the folks in the stadium leave within minutes. So it's a crush 7 of people kind of coming out onto 8 street level and they're concerned 9 about safety of pedestrians, making 10 sure we have enough sidewalk width 11 to accommodate them. 12 So they had originally 13 proposed closing 10th and 11th 14 Streets between Market I believe and 15 potentially all the way up to Arch in order to make it a pedestrian- only area to get people away from the arena. Like I said, we alongside with the City have been able to work with them on walking that back a little bit and getting one lane for emergency vehicles and SEPTA vehicles on both streets.
And emergency and SEPTA only, no other cars on 10th and 11th?
And that is accommodated within the traffic impact study that they've completed.
Thank you, Council Lady. Chair recognizes Councilmember Ahmad.
Thank you, Chair. Thank you all for being here. A few questions: I heard what it'll cost you, but is there a positive revenue impact if everything were to go where you had everything paid for? On the rosiest of scenarios what is the positive revenue impact for you?
Yes. So that $20 million to $25 million that it would cost us to provide the additional service, that is net of additional revenue. So that includes a positive number in it of about $2.3 million annually in fare revenue.
It's always beneficial for SEPTA to have higher ridership numbers and more people on our system, but we are heavily subsidized and that model for transportation and transit is not going to change. So in order to be able to provide that service, we do need that subsidy from somewhere.
And what are your thoughts on that 40 percent split that we talked about? You've done this. This is your bread and butter. Is that a reasonable target, you know, to convert people to using transit? What are your thoughts on that?
We think it is. We did a detailed analysis of the zip codes that ticketholders live in and used our own internal model to see how likely would they be to take transit, how close is a station to them, what type of frequency on rail can we provide to them. And I think the gamechanger with this arena compared to the arenas in South Philly, there's a lot of folks that are ticketholders in the suburbs for sure. Right now they are driving to the arena in South Philadelphia because it's what we call a two-seat ride. Meaning, they have to take Regional Rail into Center City. They have to get up and they have to transfer to the Broad Street Line. A lot of folks, except for maybe the four transit geeks here at this table, would prefer not to do that. And so, they drive instead. The potential that this arena location provides is all of those folks from the suburbs now have a one-seat ride. They are getting on at their local Regional Rail Station taking that train into Jefferson and they do not even have to go outside to get to the arena. They'll have a direct connection, so that's a big shift. And then you still have all of our friends in the city that will be traveling to the arena that have a one-seat ride via Broad Street Line, Market-Frankford Line. So it's a lot more people with one- seat rides which tends to show a bigger ridership number.
Thank you. What is the -- you mentioned the FTA and their role in actually giving a green light for this to happen at all. Can you explain what that looks like and if we don't get it, that means what?
So the FTA has to approve the plans, right. Any changes that are made to that federal investment we have to show that it's a net benefit for transit, right, that we have satisfied our revenue criteria, especially if it's being used for private development. And we have to show that we are preserving the property that was originally improved for transit use preserved for the same use, right. So we need to preserve it for that transit use. So they would review it, they would review all of the plans, and it's everything. It's not just the station, the box itself, it's the easement that goes through the Fashion District that gets to the station, right. That was originally funded by an UMTA grant back in the '80s, right, to preserve transit access to the station. They have to review and approve plans to remove our new HVAC systems that we just replaced in 2000 or 2020 which were very expensive. So they have to approve any of those plans. If they don't approve it, then we would have to go back and talk to the developer and the City and try to figure out how we could make it feasible.
Because their centerpiece is using you as the mode to get there. So without that -- so how do we know or how will a lease be signed without the FTA approval? Where is the sequence of things?
I know. But the lease is pretty much incumbent on that FTA approval. So I'm just trying to understand the timing of things of how your FTA approval will feed into -- I mean, the City should not go into a transaction without that because 40 percent ridership is what is the linchpin in this not creating traffic and all these other things we're talking about. So do you have a sense of how the timing would work? And we have a new Administration coming in, so these are all things that we have to take into account in terms of timing, because timing is money. Time is money here. So I just wanted to know what that flow of things in any kind of construction project becomes critical.
So we've had a long-term communication with the City and PIDC about how we incorporate getting that approval and SEPTA's approval before any demolition could be made, any demolition permits could be issued. We've talked about them including it in their documents. We have not seen that.
I'll also add that the work with FTA has already begun. So we have already had an initial meeting with them. We feel that that's a critical path for the project and so does the Administration and the developer in our discussions with them, so that's certainly going to be prioritized upfront.
Thank you, Councilmember. Chair recognizes Councilman O'Rourke.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to join the warm regards already lifted towards you all at SEPTA, but also for being here and taking the time to meet with myself and my team last week. Based on our conversations in last week's hearings with the Administration and the Sixers, it's clear that there's a concerning lack of clarity. Things that we don't have, Councilwoman Ahmad, surrounding SEPTA's vital role in 76 Place living up to its lofty promises. So I want to actually start my questions there. Could you -- and some of this was already touched on, but for my line of questioning could you confirm for Council today has SEPTA received a full engineering plan for the arena yet?
Thank you. And what does that mean for your ability to plan for construction and disruptions to service?
It is still -- we don't have all the information that we need. But as of yesterday afternoon, we have begun those constructibility discussions with the developer and they have provided us more detail with a plan coming shortly.
Shortly, again. Okay. Thank you. The few facts that are already established, however, illustrate the flaws with this proposal. I just want to run through a few quick questions with you. Currently only to percent of fans utilize SEPTA when visiting the stadium complex; is that correct?
As 7 it stands, the Sixers have committed 8 only to providing a SEPTA fare for 9 season ticketholders for the first 10 year that the arena is open. 11 However, the feasibility study 12 stressed the importance of attaching 13 a SEPTA fare to every ticket to meet 14 the critical 40 percent ridership 15 goal, which I think Council 16 President also alluded to. What are 17 some of the steps the Sixers would 18 need to take to get ridership up to 19 that level? 20
We think there's really three components that will get us to that 40 percent. Foundationally it's the service. We have to have that 30-minute service. People aren't going to choose to get out of their cars and take transit if they have to wait over an hour for a train. The second piece of it is very much they have to feel safe and secure in the station so we need a good station environment. We need a lot of staff down there. We would love to see amenities down there. The amenities that exist there today are actually not SEPTA's, so the Dunkin' Donuts, the old Philly Pretzel Factory, they are the Fashion District. So when that side of the mall is gone, all of our station amenities are gone as well. And then the last piece is we have to have one heck of a marketing plan. And so, that includes lots of public information campaigns, where can we include tickets as part of a package or to a season ticketholder how do we get Key Advantage for all of the employees. You need all three of those things to hit that 40 percent.
Okay. And I'm done. And to your knowledge, has the Sixers made any commitments to taking any of those steps?
Thank you, Councilmember. And I just want to piggyback following up on Councilman O'Rourke's comments that, you know, as we stated last week it's incredibly disappointing and disturbing I think that we don't have the level of detail that I think that we should have at this point. And to know that SEPTA doesn't have what it needs is quite troubling. With that being said, Chair recognizes Councilman Phillips.
Thank you, Councilwoman Bass. The question that I have is just around SEPTA and its future with the arena. And the arena is going to be constructed about over the next six years. Right now SEPTA is in a bad and type position. Do you foresee as SEPTA continues to grow and get out of this circumstance does that make this a more positive thing for you all and to work on for the future, considering the fact that you did say that this could be a revenue boost for you all? Do you foresee this being something that you just can't afford forever or just right now?
I can take that. So all of the funding solutions that we're working with this group, with the City, with the state on right now, that does not get us to a budget number that would be able to include this $20 million to $25 million in additional service. So even if we get the full ask from the state, that does not give us extra budget for any of these additional service numbers.
Right. And so, the question that I have is if this is a certain revenue boost for SEPTA as a business model, wouldn't you try to work really earnestly to figure out how to make this work as opposed to coming in with a deficit model?
So in order to get that revenue boost, that $2.3 million in additional revenue, we have to spend million. So this 23 will never be a money-making 24 endeavor for SEPTA. We unfortunately don't have lots of avenues to boost revenue. This is not one of them. There's lots of other opportunities for us with this project, and obviously we are very invested in the future of Market East. Our offices are right at 12th and Market so we see what's going on every day. But this will not be a project that produces more revenue than what the necessary service cost us.
But if I heard correctly earlier, you said that if this was built if you were able to get the subsidy of the $20 million or so, it would bring in $2.5 million annually. So that is a revenue boost in the event that you're able to get that particular subsidy.
Absolutely. We will take that subsidy from wherever we can find it, and we are committed to working alongside the City and the team to seek out those funding solutions. We just want to be clear today that it can't be funded out of our own budget.
That's what I'm saying. So right now it's not operationally sound to do that. But I'm asking that five years from now if SEPTA is able to work with the state, this may be possible now beyond that. Have you foreseen what things look like five years from now?
Correct, if we have an overall budget solution and a subsidy for this additional service, that will put us in good shape to be able to provide it.
Thank you. I just want us to think about how SEPTA should think about being on the cusp of figuring out how do we get out of this situation now but also have the vision to think about how do we make future revenue work for the City and be in a positive light like, okay, we need to figure out how to do this, in this all at the same time. All right. Thank you, Chairwoman.
Thank you, Councilman Phillips. And that being said, there are -- if there are no other questions from -- Chair recognizes Councilman Driscoll.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you leadership of SEPTA. I know it's a stressful time for the leadership and your members and TWU. And I think if we all work together we can get through this. It's that three-legged stool that we talk about, SEPTA, the state, the City all working together. I mean, I spent many years in the General Assembly as did Council President and Mayor Parker advocating for the advantages of fully funding the Southeast region. It's not only an economic engine for the Southeast, but truly the revenues that are generated from the hardworking men and women that take SEPTA, that those tax dollars then go to the Commonwealth that sometimes our friends across the Commonwealth don't quite get. My hope, as Council President stated, is that the new General Assembly when they get sworn in the first Tuesday in January, they get to work, they roll up their sleeves. Governor Shapiro gets creative with the funding surpluses that we have up there to make sure not only -- outside of what we're talking about today, that you get what you need to do the right thing for the city of Philadelphia and the Southeast region. So having said all that, I just want to get a couple questions on the record because it's important. As you see, most of the members here we all come from a different perspective. We all have a constituency here. We all want to get it right. And before we take this big vote, we want to make sure that every question that we can think of is on the record. So real briefly, how does the expected passenger volume at Jefferson Station post-event compare to the current evening rush hour? And then related, has SEPTA estimated how many passengers would use the BSL or MFL if less service or no additional Regional Rail service was provided at Jefferson?
All right. So our current model shows that for the arena we would have about 3200 additional passengers per event.
3200 per event on Regional Rail. And, Scott, maybe you can give some more context on how that might compare to a traditional evening peak.
Sure. So today keep in mind, however, this is 3200 passengers within a span of about 15 to 20 minutes. So our typical passenger levels are not coming in in that number. They're trickling in, so they're typically arriving anywhere say 5 to 15 minutes prior to their train's arrival. So on a typical evening rush in any given 15-minute period, you might see anywhere from say several hundred to at the most maybe 1,000 people in the station, and then they're going to vacate within minutes and they'll be replaced 5 by say another several hundred to 6 1,000 and that just cycles through 7 over the course of about two to 8 three hours. 9 You take that same 1,000 10 people and now in a span of 15 11 minutes we introduce another 3,200. 12 This causes us to have to manage 13 that crowd differently where we are 14 going to meter the number of people 15 who can enter the station, enter the platform, manage it in such a way that we can create a safe environment where people are able to get down the steps onto a train a little at a time, so we make sure we manage that properly.
Okay. Well, the way the Sixers are playing now they'll be leaving early, leaving the game early, but that's for another day. And what would be involved in ordering the schedule of the existing Regional Rail train serving Jefferson Station after 9:00 p.m. to arrive to 30 7 minutes later to serve the post- 8 event travel. 9
That's those 10 additional 20 trains that we would 11 need to add to the schedule. I 12 think we touched on it a little bit 13 earlier. The challenge we have at 14 providing this type of service at 15 this station is that the events 16 don't end at a consistent end time. 17 So we don't know that the Sixers 18 game is always going to be over at 19 9:45. So as we're trying to set up 20 our Regional Rail schedules, they have to be a timed schedule. So we just need to provide that consistent service every 30 minutes to cover a game that maybe a lot of people do leave early compared to a game that has overtime periods. The way we do this now at NRG is we're able to store all of those extra trains and we just wait to release them until the game is over. We can't do that at Jefferson because of the way that it's set up.
All right. And just lastly for the record, what's the capacity for additional passengers if it was just existing trains after 9:30?
If no additional service was provided, what are we talking about there?
We can get that answer to you to make sure that we would have capacity on existing trains for passengers. We didn't look at it that way because if we don't have those extra trains, we do feel very strongly that people aren't going to take Regional Rail.
And I don't disagree. I think people want to get where they're going immediately. I get that.
I would also say that at that time of the evening between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m. we're running smaller trains, two cars generally, so we wouldn't have capacity to introduce on a line say an additional 400, 500 people per train without pre-planning and having the additional cars and crew and the folks to manage it.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman on Transportation. I just want to go back as we just wrap up. Earlier you mentioned that regarding the Broad Street Run, you talked about how Blue Cross sponsors SEPTA fares to kind of mitigate the impact of the increase in operational ridership, right. And you also mentioned that those fares cover about percent 7 of operational costs, correct? 8
So if Blue Cross, which 12 pretty much is a private company, 13 hosts an event, they want subsidized 14 20 percent of the fares. Where does 15 the 80 percent of the operational 16 cost come from? Does that come from 17 SEPTA's budget or how do you come up 18 with the other cost to pay for the 19 increase in ridership and operation? 20
So that comes from the SEPTA's operating budget?
Yes, it does. So it would be fair to say in the event that this does move forward and let's say the Sixers decide to engage in something similar where they're providing a ticket/ and I still call them transpasses, I don't know what they're called today, right, to kind of help mitigate the cost and impact on SEPTA's operational cost, would that be something that would be I would think helpful in terms of your overall operational cost?
I mean, certainly any subsidy that we receive is helpful. However, there's several very fundamental differences in the way we run subway service as opposed to Regional Rail service. We have about 1,000 staff that are dedicated full-time every single day to running subway service. Those are train operators, cashiers, custodians, managers. And on a big event, whether it's Broad Street Run or South Philadelphia Stadium event, we draw from those thousand people and we can redeploy them as-needed. A Regional Rail operation does not function like that because we don't see those kinds of events happen with the regularity that we see on the Broad Street Line or the Market-Frankford Line where we can draw from existing staff. We would be creating a whole new staff of people to work events that involve large scale changes to our Regional Rail operation.
And I would think -- and just as I wrap up before we go to our next panel, in terms of the Regional Rail, just give us an idea what counties are they drawing from? Who rides the Regional Rail and where are they coming from?
So certainly our Regional Rail expands the entire region so it's certainly not just Philadelphia, but all five counties. We extend service into New Jersey and Delaware. I don't have the demographic breakdown of where customers come from --
Just want to get an idea. Obviously, if a game takes place, then you're going to have people coming from Bucks, people coming using the PATCO line coming from Jersey, people coming from Chester, people coming from Montgomery County. I just want to get an idea from that aspect. That's all.
Yeah. Based upon the ticket data that we have they are coming from the entire region. I do want to be clear there are a lot of folks coming from Philadelphia as well. We just have existing service that is in place in the later evenings today that can accommodate them. So we're looking at about 3,200 on Regional Rail from all five counties; 1,000 on PATCO, 100 on New Jersey Transit buses and then the bulk of the rest coming from Philadelphia on the Market-Frankford Line, Broad Street Line buses.
Can you just say those numbers again for me please?
Sure. 3200 on Regional Rail; 1,000 on PATCO; about 100 on New Jersey Transit buses and then the rest of the patrons would be coming on subway, trolleys, buses. And there's a table in the economic impact study that we released today that breaks that all down as well.
Okay. Did you send it to members of Council because all I had is what I received --
-- regarding construction and operational costs. Yeah, please send that over.
I don't have any other questions or comments. Do members of the Committee have any other questions and comments? (No response.)
Listen, we thank all of you for taking time out of your schedule being here. Scott, good luck as Interim Director. Wendy?
Yes, Council President. I just wanted to acknowledge, you know, we've talked about a number of things here today, especially our funding. And we want to again express appreciation for the press conference you had with our Board Chair, Councilman Driscoll, Councilman Young, Councilman Squilla very recently about supporting SEPTA and mass transit funding and a long-term solution that is much sorely needed. So thank you again for that.
Well, thank you. And I'm never shy to say when I served as Chairman of Transportation, SEPTA received the award so many years ago to be the number one transportation agency in the country. And so, we do know what SEPTA represents to our region. And the issue that we're dealing with around the funding is not a Philadelphia issue. It's a five-county surrounding region issue and everybody needs to be at the table trying to make sure that we really don't go off a fiscal cliff. And for me it's critically important because people who use SEPTA are primarily -- and this is for everybody but, you know, a lot of poor Black and Brown people, children using it for school day-in and day-out, seniors going to and from the doctor's on a day-to- day basis. So even separate from the arena, we just thank all of you for being on the front line and making sure we're moving our region forward. With that being said, will Mr. John Christmas please call up the next esteemed panel.
Reverend Felton, Lonnie Herndon, Jonathan Mason, Pastor Carl Day, please come forward. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)