And you may get an emergency and you may have to go out somewhere and you'll get lost right in the heart of the City, and you won't want to admit it. Because that was a hard question for me to admit that sometimes I may be at, you know, a cross section of streets, and I really don't know which street I'm on. And it's in every part of the City. I can't say that there's any one part that's any worse; they're all bad. Is the Recreation Commissioner still SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 181 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation here? COMMISSIONER MOY: The Deputy Commissioner is here. (Deputy Commissioner Carol Rice comes forward.)
I wanted to leapfrog on a question which Councilman Nutter raised with respect to the number of custodial -- the extent of custodial staffing of recreation centers,. I would like to know the current status of the -- not the custodial staff, but the program folks, the noncustodial people. What is the situation at the recreation centers? Is it the number of 184, which I think is the number Commissioner DiBerardinis said existed on the custodial staff for all the recreation centers? Is there any number like that? Is there a lineup of A, B and C there like it applies in custodial work?
Good afternoon. My name is Carol Rice, I'm the Deputy Recreational Commissioner. In response to your question, the Recreation Program Division has an amount of staff SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 182 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation that is aimed at covering our centers, the A's, B's and C's. So at this point, we're around -- and I don't have the figures in front of me. But it's close to 252 staff.
Can we say that every recreational center has at least one full-time staff person assigned?
Every staffed recreation center has at least one full-time staff. We have some centers that are only operative during the spring and summer, and they are usually staffed with a part-time person, and they're full-time in the summer.
Even though they may be seasonal or temporary? SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 183 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation
Could we have, when you furnish the information with respect to custodial, could you raise with the Commissioner, adding this other section with respect to program staff or how ever you designate them?
All right, thank you very much. That would deal with the Recreation Department. This is to the Health Commissioner. I see she's available. (Commissioner Estelle Richmond comes forward.)
Welcome. You've been here before. COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: Yes.
Nationwide, the number of uninsured people requiring health services has been increasing; would that be a generally true statement? COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: I'm Estelle Richmond, Health Commissioner. Yes, that would be a true statement. SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 184 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation Although I think the urban areas have been experiencing a faster growth in that increase than in rural areas.
May I translate that as saying that in the cities, the problem is worse than in the suburbs? COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: Yes.
And the rate of increase has been larger there. From your knowledge and reports that you're getting, could you tell us what percentage of uninsured people who require -- you know, who can't pay and have no insurance to cover any health needs, what percentage of Philadelphians' needs are being met among the uninsured? COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: The only group that I think I can speak of, that we have knowledge of, is the uninsured that use the district health seniors. And the uninsured that use the district health centers has grown from two years ago being about 42 percent of the people we see; to now, somewhere between 61 and 62 percent of the people we see are uninsured. SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 185 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation But that doesn't speak to the total number of uninsured in the county as a whole.
Is there any study that shows that? COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: No, but we could probably apply a rate as they apply to most large cities, and I could get you that, which will give you a ball park of how many uninsured we expect to have in the county. But when someone who's uninsured comes to a health center, they come because they're sick; it's rarely that they're coming for preventive health care. But we do know that the percentage of uninsured in the City is much larger than the percentage of people that just use the district health centers when they're sick. So -- but we can get you that prevalence figure.
Would it be possible for your department to indicate to us what would be needed, what kind of services and the approximate cost of those services would be needed to provide necessary health care, maybe also SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 186 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation preventive? Because that's usual cheaper than if you just wait for other conditions. But what would it cost so that we could say, maybe a little proudly rather than cringing when asked the question, that Philadelphians have maybe at a minimal level but have every Philadelphian as covered through our health centers. COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: Right. Well, the only problem is -- we could do something like that, but people other than the Health Department cover people who are uninsured. The federally-qualified health centers that have no funding from the City but do get funding from the federal government are also mandated to serve the uninsured. And they do.
Well, I think that should be mentioned because then they're taking care of a specific portion of -- COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: Right, they take care of some of those. And in some cases, the hospitals, who are already seeing people in their clinics, that person may start off insured and then become SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 187 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation uninsured. Very frequently, those hospitals will maintain that person because they want to stay with the doctor, and the hospital's willing to see uninsured. So to cover the whole City is probably not necessary, but we will try to work out some sort of what would be appropriate. I'm not sure if the City should take the entire burden when there are other people right now that are sharing that burden -- very appropriately sharing that burden.
Yeah, well, I'm not looking for us to take away from anybody. COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: Right.
But this study might help us put pressure on others also in addition to letting us know what the facts are. I'm embarrassed when people raise the question at the community meetings about how many people in Philadelphia don't get any medical care at all.
Excuse me, Councilman Cohen. I certainly can appreciate the spirit of your questions. You're asking SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 188 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation questions, the detail of which is appropriate for our budget hearings. I mean, this is really a broader kind of discussion that we're having of the five-year plan.
Well, what could be broader than the kind of medical care our people in Philadelphia are --
I understand and I offer you the caution that we are here and we're considering kind of the broad overview of the budget at this time.
And so I would like for you to be respectful of just that principle. Thank you.
Good. I think these questions are because I'm also prepared to wait for the answers. Maybe those answers could come during the regular budget sessions. But I think some of them require advanced knowledge on your part. And if it seems appropriate for a reply separate from the budget hearings that's directly so we can consider it at the budget hearing. I think that would be appropriate. SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 189 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation COMMISSIONER RICHMOND: We will try to do an analysis of health care and the related costs.
Very good. Then I wonder if Police Commissioner Neal could come forward. (Police Commissioner Richard Neal comes forward.)
I just have one general overall question. And, again, that may not be available here. One of the puzzling things is the reports we get generally in the newspapers about what's occurring in the city of Boston with respect to the apparently very great reduction in the number of homicides, and, at least for one recent year, the elimination of all juvenile homicides. Would there be any studies that the Police Department has made as to why that has been achieved in Boston? And how can we achieve what they've done? Is it applicable to Philadelphia, or are there other circumstances which make their results SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 190 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation not relevant to Philadelphia? That would be one question. The other question I would raise with you either to answer now or in the future is, in your statistical charts, you refer to the number of police per 100,000 residents. Is there a similar study of the number of homicides per 100,000 residents over, say, a 10-year period, you know, a long period to allow for trends? Has there been a reduction -- as the population in Philadelphia went from, say, 2 million down to a million and a half, has there been a reduction in the number of homicides? Or does that figure remain stable, or has it increased? They are the two questions I have. I was going to say -- I thought the President was still there, but they're of a very broad general nature. COMMISSIONER NEAL: Okay. And I'll be responding in a very broad general nature. This is Commissioner Richard Neal of the Philadelphia Police Department. SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 191 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation Relative to the issue of the Boston study, Philadelphia is currently doing a pilot program in two of our divisions. After meeting and having discussions with our Probation Department, they have agreed and have come on board to participate, similar to what has transpired in Boston, where the Police and the Probation Department came together. And we're currently doing that in a pilot study in two of the divisions, in the East Police Division and in the West Police Division. Concerning the issue of the homicides, when we look at the number of homicides that occurred here in 1990, it's just over 500; and the number that occurred in 1997 is just over 400, so it demonstrates that there has been about an 18 percent reduction in the number of homicides over that period of time.
In that last answer, what period of time does that cover, how many years is that? COMMISSIONER NEAL: Well, as I said, from 1990 through 1997.
So it could be seven SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 192 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation or eight years. COMMISSIONER NEAL: Yes.
Could I get any information that may appear in any report that you have that indicates that? COMMISSIONER NEAL: Yes, mm-hmm.
Councilman, I'd just like to piggyback with a little observation that I have.
Thank you, Mr. President, I'll be very brief. This is more of a policy question. I know the L&I Commissioner was here earlier, but it's not something that she has complete control over. It has to do with of the five-year plan. It's a section entitled, "Cleaning and Sealing Nuisance Properties." And SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 193 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation you talk about L&I working in conjunction with the National Guard and the department staff and a whole host of people. And the last line of the first paragraph says, "This program also cleans debris from empty lots in neighborhoods, and fences those lots."
Sure. There's a section entitled, on , "Cleaning and Sealing Nuisance Properties," and it goes on to give a description about what the Clean and Seal Program is, the great work of the National Guard, L&I staff, etc. And in the last line in that first paragraph, it says, "This program also cleans debris from empty lots in neighborhoods, and fences those lots." My experience tells me that we have virtually no fencing going on. We have a little bit of jersey barrier activity, which is different than a fence. And so whether it's the clean-and-seal activity or the regular demolition, SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 194 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation I have raised this question in the past. There used to be an active regular fencing program for vacant lots and for demolished structures. And somewhere, because of an intergovernmental -- or I'm sorry, actually, an interdepartmental problem, we now have virtually no fencing program. And what I'd like you guys to do, and you don't have to -- I mean, if you have an answer, you can give it. If you don't, that's fine. But I'd like you to go back and figure out why we don't have a fence program specifically related to empty lots and demolished structures, and then come back and tell us how we're going to have a fencing program. The jersey barriers do not work. They are subject to graffiti. And they are only about two and a half to three feet high at most, so people and debris always end up on the other side of the jersey barriers. We need a fence program, not one that's geared towards who do you know or who can you call or can you beg one from or trade off something, SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 195 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation but one that says, When we demolish a building, we automatically put a fence around it. If we're going to clean a lot, we put a fence around it. So somewhere between now and either L&I time or somebody's time, I'd like an answer to the fence problem.
It's the one question I missed, and I congratulate you for raising it.
Well, Councilman, I can't read the signs in Center City, but I can see over there on your paper. (Laughter.)
Now, at 32nd and Diamond, last night, I was there. It was excellent. They had demolished a building. It may have been about two years ago. I don't know when the fence went in. It's a very effective fence. That's the reason I'm giving you the location. And I would suggest that you look and SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 196 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation see if that's the kind of fence that Councilman Nutter would feel is appropriate. It's a fairly high fence, it was newly painted, or it came new. It's a very attractive fence, and it adds a great deal. And if I may ask one further question while we do that. Is it a City policy that says when a house is demolished, the steps are to be retained? Because there are several houses in my area that I've noticed very recently. The houses were demolished, I assume correctly and probably under orders from L&I, but the steps are there leading into nowhere. It's a very eery kind of feeling as you pass by it. And I wondered whether there's a change in City policy so that he who demolishes doesn't have to remove the steps, even though there's a lawn that suddenly leads to nothing.
If you walk up the lawn and you don't watch, you'll slip down about eight feet. SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 197 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation
No, I'm not familiar with that policy. As a matter of fact, when we demolish a building, we hope to demolish the entire building.
Because if it was done by City contractors, I think somebody ought to follow through.
Councilman, if your office would give me the addresses, we'll look into it and make sure that the job is completed.
All right. I'm done, but I'm very glad you raised that question, Councilman Nutter.
Is there any Member of Council that has any question for these witnesses or any other witness? (No further questions from Council at this time.)
Seeing none, then SELECT COMMITTEE FISCAL STABILITY & INTERGOVT'L COOPERATION 198 Fiscal Stability & Intergovernmental Cooperation this Committee will stand in recess until the call of the Chair. Tomorrow morning, at o'clock, we will 5 have the Council Committee of the Whole meeting, 6 and I think we're scheduled to start our capital 7 budgeting hearings at that time. 8 Thank you very much for coming. 9 (Adjourned at 5:15 p.m.) - - - 199 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, February 11, 1998 were reported and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, RPR