um do you recognize these photographs yes yes um all photos evidence of a four unit
apartment building four mailboxes four meters four kitchens okay um were these uploaded to
eclipse along with that uh affidavit yes i'm just gonna i know you already stated but this
second photograph shows four mailboxes is that correct yes what about this photograph uh four
meters scroll briefly would you say this is kitchen number one sure number two yep number three yes
and number four yes okay um have you had the chance to uh review lni's case file for this
property more generally uh in so far as my review for the plans i i reviewed everything to the best
of my ability um i don't recall were any permits ever issued uh to remove some units or remove
some of these uh kitchen facilities no not not that i'm aware of uh i also say that in in the
process of customary review i do look for vacant property um violations um and any change in zoning
as well were there any violations on this property at all none that i recall now okay um all right
jim could you go through the four kitchen photos just a little bit slower sure uh starting the top
this is the first one that that's the first kitchen yes
this is the second one
it's the third one
and that's the fourth one thank you yep um all right
that's the fourth one thank you yep um all right and finally i'm just gonna scroll down to city
exhibit seven here um do you recognize this document yes it's property certificate and what
is the property certificate state in terms of a use uh it's household living multi-family
uh for dwelling units and when was this issued if you can read that uh april 21st of 2025
so this i believe i yes i believe i quoted it in my original review comment as well this would
have been a few months prior to your review correct okay um once all of this information
was provided would you have any would you have had any basis to deny this permit
no okay that's all i have thank you um hillary we want uh mr bonnie to go next or we want uh
so he can he can cross-examine the witness because he did request that mr
wilson uh be here so let him do that i'm just saying then we'll let meredith do the same
okay rachel yes rachel yes yeah rachel do the same and then we'll let mr bonnie continue with
his presentation please proceed yes okay thank you uh mr wilson good morning
are you still there mr wilson yes i'm here okay thank you um my name is paul bonnie i represent
the appellant that's uh um uh are i'm not sure if you're aware or not but um my client will be
testifying that they contacted lni through the lni website with some information um is it your
uh did you get any information from that part of lni i did not okay do you know if there's if
there's any measures within lni to get information that was submitted through that website over to
your desk? Uh, that's above my, um, station. Um, I know there's warnings that can be added to a
parcel, but, um, I don't know, um, how, why, um, or to what degree they're, they're added. I simply
know to respond to them when I see them. Um, I don't recall any warnings associated with this
property at the time of my review. Okay. You're saying warnings with a W is that the word?
correct okay thank you um uh does your office ever take calls telephone calls from the public
inquiries i believe they do yes okay um
in your testimony you talked about the second entry on that request for more information that
Mr. Kelly put on the screen. Could you put that back on the screen?
Okay. So I just want to walk through this with you for a moment. This is your request
for more information and it says uh at this is this information that you typed into the system
this paragraph okay yes the four family use was permitted by zba variants in 1940.
the last rental license on record is for a single dwelling unit which expired in 2018.
unless continuous use of the property as a multifamily dwelling parentheses four units
can be verified via an affidavit of continuous use and then you provide they said there's a link
below then a new use zoning permit is required as per zoning code section 14305 sub 5 sub b
um did i read that correctly so far yes okay um now my first question is uh why why why are you
applying section 14-305-5B. Is that something that a supervisor told you to apply in this case,
or a colleague, or is that something? That would be the section regarding
vacated or abandoned uses, if I recall correctly. This would have been applicable to a use that
was granted by variants. Therefore, it would apply.
So, therefore, it would apply if the continuous use could not be confirmed.
Since the applicant provided the affidavit of continuous use, the section wouldn't have applied.
And was this your own analysis or did a supervisor or colleague...
I review and issue zoning permits as well as building permits.
So, I'm familiar with the zoning code as well.
Okay. So there was no supervisor or colleague involvement in this part of your work?
Okay. Thank you. And then the next paragraph, you say, as noted in the recently issued property cert or certification, that document does not confirm continuous use.
Correct.
And in fact, Mr. Kelly, if you could go back to the property cert, I just want to point this out for the, ask you to help me point this out for the board, that this property cert that was, you know, apparently ordered as part of the transaction this year says, and in fact, there is a exclamation point in a triangle that says,
if this property is not being used as indicated above it is the owner's responsibility to file
for a new use registration permit with the department's zoning unit is that correct
did i read that correctly
i believe so yes so correct would you agree with me that in issuing this cert the city is looking at
it's computer system essentially but it's not vouching that these four units have been used
continuously it's really just saying it's you know it's looking at the computer system it's not
looking at facts on the ground is that correct it's correct just a record review and can you
go down a little bit more mr kelly and in fact and right after that um section there's another
section that says property note if the use described within this certificate has been
discontinued for a period of three years a new zoning permit may be required the department is
not responsible to verify continuous use i did you agree i read that correctly yes okay so that's
kind of reaffirming the point that we just discussed more or less
yes okay thank you and it's talking about the three-year um concept yes all right thank you
now let's look at uh our exhibits i'm gonna could i share my screen
up here i'm gonna uh
okay share
can you see my screen mr wilson that says yes philadelphia zoning code section 14-3055
non-conforming uses and uh is it correct that this is the section that you will
that you applied. You are correct. Okay. And as you scroll, as I scroll through this section 305.5,
there's a subsection point three that's, that is titled determination of discontinued
non-conforming use. And it has two parts to it, part A and part B. And I'm just going to,
you know convey to you part a just for a moment to make sure you agree with this that this is
what it says part a says a discontinued use is a non-conforming use that's no longer being
actively operated on the property or for which there is evidence that the owner or lessee no
longer intends to use the property for that purpose evidence of a discontinued non-conforming
use may include but shall not be limited to one two three or four one is removal of improvements
necessary to the use i'm going to jump to three which is lapsing of permits or licenses
necessary to operate that use um and i'll just skip it there i won't read into the record number
two or four but um did you consider that part a
Did you consider that Part A when you were working on this case?
So is it correct to say that you did notice that there was a rental license that lapsed in 2018,
which was seven years before this application came in?
Is that correct?
Yes. Yes. I did note it in my review comment as well.
That's right. You did note that the rental license had lapsed in 2018. Now let's look at Section B. Section B or Part B says, upon receipt of an application for a zoning permit relating to a property on which a non-conforming use is situated, L&I shall notify the applicant that a determination of discontinued use is under review.
and request any evidence that the use has not been discontinued.
And I'll stop there for a moment.
So is that what you did in this case,
that you notified the applicant that a determination of discontinued use
was under review and you requested more info?
No, I requested the applicant to verify if the use had been continuous.
yes but i'm saying did you do that because this is what this part of the code says
i did it because i needed to identify how to write the cl in this particular case so it was
a very black and white situation from a planned examination point of view is what was what was
the current use if the use had been granted 1940 was continuous and and in place then i could issue
a co for four units because they're simply doing alterations to an existing four unit building
Now, I did note that the rental license had expired, but I can't speak to if three units were present and simply not rentals, and one was until 2018, that's not the information I have available to me in records.
So I questioned it, and the applicant provided an affidavit of continuous use certifying, again, within the limitations of that document, that the use had been continuous. That's the beginning and end of my review on this matter.
So you were not, are you saying you were not considering Part B of this part of the
board?
I was not.
I was considering the continuous use.
And if it wasn't, then the applicant would have had to get a new zoning permit.
This was a building permit review.
Once the use was established as being continuous, it was no longer of concern to me.
Well, nonetheless, let me read into the record what Part B says.
the second sentence says evidence that a use has been discontinued evidence that a use has
not been discontinued may include but is not limited to one two or three one is improvements
made to the property to accommodate that use during a time when the use was not actively
operating okay did you see any evidence that improvements were made to the property
how would i see evidence in a building permit application that's what i'm just i i i i've seen
no evidence right the second one efforts to market the property or improvements for that use during
the time when the use was not actively operating did you see any i am not aware of any all right
and the third is maintenance of any licenses or permits necessary for the use or business during
the time it was not active. Is it fair to say you saw the opposite of that?
I'm not aware of any. Okay. Then it says, just to finish up,
LNI's determination shall take into consideration any response received from the applicant,
but that response shall not be determinative if other evidence suggests the use has been discontinued.
Now let's turn to the affidavit. I think I can
um put that on my screen and uh uh now you gave him uh via a link um this form of affidavit
is that correct that is correct okay so everything typed on here is part of the
form that you gave him and he filled filled in you know the blanks so to speak yes okay and uh
Now, this affidavit of continuous use, the subtitle on this document says,
you must complete and submit this form with your rental license application.
So this affidavit on its face says that it relates to rental license applications,
not building permits or even zoning permits.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
That is correct.
So why did you give them this affidavit for the work that you were doing?
So why did you use this?
Why did you give him this affidavit?
It's the only tool available.
That is a city-manufactured document that the applicant can provide to us to provide the testimony that the use has been made continuous.
In other words, there isn't a separate form to supply for a building permit.
Affidavit of continuous use and requesting it is not an unusual thing for us to do.
I probably request several every month.
okay thank you um now in this case the applicant there's a section two of this application
and it says that the affiant mr chen um has owned the property since june 14 of this year
and he's signing the affidavit on july 25 so i'll represent to you that's about five weeks
So he's signing an affidavit that says two things. One, he's owned the property for five weeks. And two, that four units have been continually used as four units for 85 years, right?
From 1940 to 2025, that's 85 years, he's swearing that the four units have been in continuous use, even though he's owned it for five weeks.
Did that raise any red flags in your mind?
And why not?
I don't know the applicant.
They're providing a testimony.
They're risking perjuring themselves by a benignist document.
I take it on face value.
they provided a signed and notarized document that basically affirmed that this was the case
and this was their testimony. How long they've owned it, I cannot say they were interested
parties or had some relation to the prior owner for the last, I don't even know how old this
applicant is. So I can't tell you what their relationship is or what their knowledge of the
history of the building is. Okay. But you do know that the affidavit asks how long they've owned it.
I, I'm well aware. Okay. So you're, okay. Thank you. Um,
um, are you, do you have the, your, your eclipse system opened now? I do. Okay. Can you confirm
for us that the building application was applied for, uh, that the application was first submitted
on July 1st of this year. It was. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to switch over just as I finish
up my questions, switch over to the photos that you reviewed. Oh, sure. If you mind,
Jim, I think you just have to stop sharing your screen. We're going to just go over those photos
very quickly. Okay. Could you make that bigger? Oh, I make it bigger. Okay. Okay. I think
the next photo of the mailboxes would be helpful. Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. Now, Mr. Wilson, does
Does this photo of the mailboxes give you any information as to whether these four units were in use at the time of the photo?
It shows me that there's four units in the building.
I did not rely on the photos.
I relied on them providing an affidavit of continuous use.
This was a supporting document.
um insofar as i saw it so i'm sorry you you did or did not i i i saw it i considered it but it
was supplemental as far as i was concerned the affidavit was the primary document of interest
so it shows me that there's four mailboxes okay so well let me ask it this way if the
affidavit had not been provided but only the photos were provided would you have reached a
a different result yes i i would again the affidavit is is them providing a testimony that
this use has been continuous i'm relying on on their honesty and and and they're signing a
document that that has its own language written to it you can read it for yourself um the photographs
don't provide that same um level of authorization this is simply photographic evidence to back up
what they submitted in the affidavit i have no further question i have no and so your answer
would be the same if i showed you the photo of the meters and the kitchens it would be the same
photo of the meters and the kitchen it would be the same for every single photo in this
for every single photo in this in this uh
in this uh document yes i thank you mr wilson rachel sure um thank you i wanted to just ask um
mr wilson in your experience how many years have you worked at l and i sorry if i've been with i've