I'll tell you what I know, which is that I know he lived there by himself as a neighbor. And I know that there was a rental license that expired in 2018.
Do you have any proof? So those have been stated and a lapsing of a permit due to a hardship like illness or age is not proof of abandonment or discontinuance.
I want to do you have anything in the affirmative, an overt act or something that you could offer for to show that there was a desire to affirmatively and actively discontinue this use?
I don't. I think other witnesses do. So I do.
okay um also you had mentioned given your experience as an architect you you do architecture
in the city of philadelphia correct so you've engaged with lni many times i have um and you
are are you aware that i guess i would ask you who are you aware that makes the determination
based on things being submitted to lni um who gets to make the determination if the documentation
is sufficient for applications like this? Is that neighbors? Is that architects? Is that lawyers?
Who gets to make that determination at the end of the day?
I would think the plan examiner is responsible for that.
Right. And so you're aware that the plan examiner got your email or the L&I got your email and
decided and all the calls and emails that your organization was making and issued a permit for
four units for this building. Is that correct? I had no reason to believe that my message to
L&I was not included within the file that the plan examiner saw. But are you aware as an architect
that when you submit those documents or your thoughts to L&I, that it's up to them to review
them and then they would reach out whether they think what you're suggesting is relevant or not?
And ultimately, are you aware that they made a determination for to issue a four unit permit for the alterations for a four unit building?
Yes. Thank you. Nothing further.
Next witness, please.
My next witness is Deb McCarthy.
OK. Good morning. Could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer?
her. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? Please proceed.
Please introduce yourself and your role at PPCA very briefly.
um i am a former executive at the water department i retired in 2019 and um i've been a neighbor
or resident of the community for over 43 years and uh past president of the civic association
and currently serve as co-chair with george poolin on the zoning committee
What did you do?
What did you do on this matter regarding 3411 Bering Street?
What did you first do?
So when we saw that it had been listed, I sent an email or through the portal for the realtor saying, hey, we see it's listed as four units.
um so you sent an email to the realtor through either zillow or her company's website yes and
i mean we wanted to be proactive because we didn't want to what has happened to happen
so i'm showing uh exhibit f of our exhibits the last page and uh correct me if i'm wrong but this
is the message that you sent to the listing agent that says dear gina that's two n's gina anderson
we are writing with regarding 3411 bering street in philadelphia and on behalf of the palin village
civic association zoning committee please note that there is an error in your listing the property
is not zoned as four units the zoning variance which allowed the conversion from a two-family
residential property rta1 to a four-family residential property expired many years ago
as such any listing for this property should reflect that the zoning is a two-family residence
potential buyers who tour the property may assume that it's four units because it remains
subdivided it is thus important that they be made aware of the actual designation
um and then there's some other things that are not really relevant signed and you're one of the
co-signers of this email is that correct that was yes and did you have a conversation with
miss anderson um yes i subsequently uh she's the realtor you're talking about now okay yes
yes so in the exhibit it looks like she didn't get back to you so in a few days so you had sent
a follow-up email to her saying you're disappointed you haven't received a response yet it now appears
that 3411 bearing is no longer on the market can we hear from the witness as opposed to you
she wrote the email correct so maybe we should hear from her okay thank you
So I followed up because I had not heard from her and basically said that we see that the listing was taken off and would appreciate confirming that acknowledgement that when it is relisted, that it probably be properly listed as two units.
and want to make sure that they're aware of that.
I'd have to object to the response based on hearsay.
If there's anything else from Ms. McCarty, I think that's fine,
but the response is I'd object to.
I agree, Ms. McCarty.
Well, let me just respond to that, if you could.
This is not a court of law.
The zoning board is allowed to consider here.
Let me just make the objection.
Yeah, I agree, but I think we should move on
and try to get finished.
That's my opinion.
Okay. Well, I'd like to make the objection for the record.
Well, I understand it. Yeah, I understand. Okay. We're good.
It's not a court of law, the zoning board is... I understand. You've said that. I agree with you.
Allow to consider hearsay evidence, especially when there's... Well, we do, but I'm going to move on with this.
Robberation. Okay. Well, I guess you're telling me that I should relinquish the microphone, but I...
I was trying to make the objection. Why don't you move?
what was your what was your takeaway from your interaction with ms anderson
that she recognized that um there was an issue with the zoning of the property it may well be
what we had stated and um that it that's why she took it off the market
and had she told everybody anybody about it as a result of your conversation she stated uh
When I spoke to her, she stated that she had informed the agent, she had changed the listing online, and it was public record.
Anybody could see that there was a discrepancy with the zoning.
Did you ever send a letter to the new owner?
uh well because we did not know who the owner was uh we did draft we wrote a letter to him
welcoming to the community stating and by the way why you think it's four units it's actually two
stating and by the way why you think it's four units it's actually two units we're going to start
units we're an historic district
district is exhibit g the letter that you sent yes okay and we can you read the second paragraph
please it has come to our attention that there may be some confusion regarding the allowed dwelling
units in this property please note that your property is zoned rta1 two-family residential
While there was a zoning variance for four units obtained many decades ago, the variance
as long ago expired.
How did you deliver that to the property?
I made two copies, stuck them in an envelope, addressed it to the new owner, slipped one
through the mail slot of the property, and taped the other on the door, front door.
And the date of your letter is July 22?
2025, yes.
Are you aware of the date of the affidavit that the applicant submitted to the city?
Yes, that was dated a day later, July 23rd.
I have no further questions.
I have a question before we go on.
You said several times it expired years ago.
When did it expire?
As long as Clarence lived there, it was never used as four units.
But I mean, you said it expired to do that.
Do you have an idea when that was?
Yeah, I can't speak.
But you wrote that letter that said it expired years ago.
Thanks.
Thanks on what we knew.
All right.
Questions from.
I don't have anything.
I don't know if Ms. Pritzker knows.
Yeah, please.
Pritzker.
Yeah, thank you.
Again, I'm going to ask the same question.
So you had mentioned that you used to work for the water department.
Correct.
Are you a land use expert or an expert on continuous or discontinued uses?
I've learned a lot over the years being on the zoning committee.
It's a yes or no.
May I finish?
It's a yes or no.
Are you classified or certified as an expert in land use or continuous use or discontinued use,
or are you a licensed land use attorney in the state of Pennsylvania?
I'll let her answer the second part.
I don't think anyone is classified.
There are certainly experts, Paul, in this.
That's fine.
Okay, thank you.
I also wanted to ask you, is it part of Paliton Village organization's charter or mission to reach out to owners or their real estate agents when there is a sale with a property that's had a longstanding use?
Is this part of your core mission and is this something you do regularly?
When we're aware of new owners moving into the community, we always try to welcome them and provide them information.
We're a historically certified community and not everybody is aware of that.
So we we yes, we reach out to new owners and it's not unusual.
Do you typically write letters welcoming them by telling them that the property should be zoned differently or that a use is discontinued based on your guys' personal view of it? Is it typically contesting a longstanding continuous use?
I think you're mischaracterizing what our letter says.
It's in front of the screen.
I will tell you that when we see a discrepancy, we want to make sure the new owner is aware of that.
And but did you know that? So here we did. But do you know from your experience working at the water department or as all these years on the zoning board that the right organization to reach out to would have been the Department of Licenses and Inspections?
License and inspections has the jurisdiction, of course, but there's nothing wrong with a
community organization trying to inform new owners of what the zoning is.
But my question was, are you aware that the authority that is responsible for determining
this is the Department of Licenses and Inspection?
I already answered that.
I said LNI is the authority.
Okay. And what, just so we're clear, because the realtor isn't here, the realtor is not also an expert in licensing and inspections or in discontinued uses and is not a land use attorney. I wanted to ask, since you were aware of the property being for sale, was there anything that stopped you or individually or the organization from purchasing the property?
well i already own a property uh i am retired and on limited income but by the way we did inform
other folks in the neighborhood or that do not live in the neighborhood uh hey there's this
property for sale if you're interested in being an owner occupant folks that we knew were
If you're interested in being an owner-occupant, folks that we knew were, you know, interested in being owner-occupants, we did put the word out and folks did look at it.
you know interested in being owned
I was asking, was there anything that, this was a public sale, correctly, this was on the market, anybody could have purchased the property?
Okay, including you or anyone in your organization, if it mattered that much.
This wasn't a private sale.
This wasn't an inherited sale.
This wasn't an estate sale.
This was a public sale.
It was not a private sale.
and you were anybody that could afford it could have made an offer that's correct right and we're
and you said that you were aware that the property was subdivided internally as four units
in 1940 they got a variance yes so you had written in your letter i think if paul wants
to scroll up you had written in your letter that you know or you had mentioned in your testimony
a few minutes ago that you were aware that this was subdivided into four units
yes okay it was not two units it wasn't one unit and you were aware that Mr. Clarence was living
in the property actively living in the property yes okay there was not it was not vacant he was
living in the property correct correct okay um what other do you have any other proof besides
your personal testimony that you've given that would show overt acts of an intention of an owner
to cease use of the property, including not living in the property, or anything besides
what's already been presented today? Is there anything that you have proof of that would show
overt acts to discontinue a longstanding four-unit use of an owner who is living in the building?
I can't speak to that.
Okay. Are you aware that also 3409 bearing, 3419 bearing, 3400 bearing, 3406 bearing, and I could go on, are all three and four unit buildings on this block?
I'm aware of the number of units that are zoned and used on that block. In fact, when I first moved there, I lived in that block.
Right.
So you're aware that this block is almost entirely four-unit and three-unit buildings,
most of which got variances back in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and 70s.
It is not currently used that way.
I'm not asking you what the currently, I mean, we can go through the records because
a lot of them have active rental licenses for those uses.
Correct.
I understand that.
Right.
So you're aware that this block consists of three and four-unit buildings that were
given variances decades ago like this one was.
right and have been actively used as such this property well you just mentioned are you aware
that being actively used means someone's living in the property maintaining the property doesn't
mean they have to rent out every four units are you aware of the law here i'm aware of the law
and actively used as four units is people living in four units that's that's that's incorrect again
And that's why I asked if you were an expert in continuous use or a land use attorney.
I have nothing further.
I'll leave it there.
Thank you very much.
So we have, you can't, surely, but we have one question from our.
I have one question.
I think you said that you had lived there in the, for 43 years.
Correct.
And you said that you knew Clarence, the owner of this property.
do you know how long he was living in the property i don't know i know when i first
rented uh on the corner property across the street from you know kind of category from
him um he was there but and that was in 1982 but i don't i can't really tell you how long he's been