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Committee Hearing, June 10, 2009

Philadelphia City Council Committee HearingsJun 10, 2009

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COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT3 - - -4 Room 400, City Hall5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 9:20 a.m.6 - - -7 8 9 Bill 090074 - Amending Chapter 9-600 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and Other10 Businesses," by adding a new Section 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of Recyclable and11 Compostable Checkout Bags." 12 Bill 090075 - Held at request of sponsor. 13 14 15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: James F. Kenney, Chair16 Blondell Reynolds Brown, Vice Chair Curtis Jones, Jr.17 Donna Reed Miller Frank Rizzo18 Maria D. Quiñones-Sanchez 19 20 21 - - -22 V A R A L L O Incorporated23 Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 60024 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.267025 2 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741

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Councilman Kenney

Good2 morning, ladies and gentlemen.3 The Council Committee on the4 Environment is now in session to take5 testimony on:6 Bill No. 090074, which is an7 ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of the8 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and9 Other Businesses," by adding a new10 Section 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of11 Recyclable and Compostable Checkout12 Bags," all under certain terms and13 conditions.14 Bill No. 090075 will be held at15 the request of the sponsor, and there16 will be no testimony taken on that bill17 today.18 I'd like to make an19 announcement that since this bill has had20 hearings in the past, we will be21 accepting additional testimony that is22 different from the testimony that's been23 given in the past. The record is24 extremely clear on the position of both25 3 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 sides of the issue, and it serves no one2 any purpose to read into the record again3 the same testimony that was given at4 prior hearings.5 So if there's any other6 additional testimony to be given or a7 paraphrase of the testimony you want to8 offer, we'd be happy to hear that not,9 but we will not be taking extensive10 testimony based on what has already been11 said and is a part of the record.12 So that being said, the witness13 list that I have is: Shari Jackson. Is14 she here? Would you please come forward?15 (Witness comes forward.)16

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Ms. Jackson

Sure. I'm Shari20 Jackson. I'm the director of the21 Progressive Bag Affiliates of the22 American Chemistry Council. 2 I just wanted to -- as you've3 stated, my comments have been submitted4 for the record on the 090075. 8 But I want to state at the9 outset that the PBA is committed to10 working with communities throughout this11 country to promote recycling and the12 proper disposal of bags. But I really13 kind of wanted to make three main points14 regarding this bill that's the subject of15 the hearing today:16 Basically, that bag bans do17 have unintentional consequences that can18 result in more environmental harm. There19 is a requirement in this bill for20 compostable bags that can cause some21 potential problems for the City. 2 Regarding the unintended3 consequences of bag bans -- and, again,4 this was stated before: We do support5 the objective of this bill to reduce6 litter, but we don't believe that a bag7 ban is the right approach to getting at8 this issue primarily because, as I've9 stated, there are unintentional10 environmental consequences. 15 Now when compared to paper, plastic bags16 do have a lighter environmental17 footprint. They require 70 percent less18 energy to manufacture, they generate half19 the greenhouse gas emissions, 80 percent20 less waste. 9 Another thing I want to mention10 here is that there was a recent view of11 life-cycle data on both disposal,12 biodegradable, and reusable bags. This13 was done by Robert Lilienfeld, who is the14 author of Use Less Stuff. And he has a15 Website that I certainly can provide to16 you to check out the information that17 he's provided and his review of this18 like-cycle study, but what he says in19 essence is this:20 Legislation that is designed to21 reduce the environmental impacts and22 litter by outgrowing grocery bags, based23 on the material from which they are24 produced, will not deliver the intended25 7 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 results. 22 And the last issue I'll address23 regarding this legislation is the24 provision for compostable plastic bags in25 8 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 this bill. 20

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Councilman Kenney

And just24 one comment regarding recyclables:25 9 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 We have had this discussion2 over the course of more than a year now.3 And after our first set of hearings,4 stores that were using the plastic bags5 stopped their recycling programs.6 People -- there were larger supermarkets7 that actually stopped their recycling8 program so that when people with good9 intention wanted to bring their plastic10 bags back to the store, the bins were11 removed.12 So I know it's being -- I know13 that recycling is going on around the14 country, but here, it seems the trend15 with the larger chain stores is that16 they're stopping their recycling.17 So that argument, while I18 understand that from a theoretical19 standpoint, it may be accurate, but from20 a practical standpoint, they're just not21 doing it anymore.22

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Ms. Jackson

The industry is3 doing what it can.4 This is -- the way we -- the5 best way for us to collect this material6 for recycling is through stores. So we7 need the partnership of those stores.8 When they are not working with us to put9 in place programs to educate people about10 recycling, it's harder for us to11 accomplish that.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But for13 two years, since Councilman Kenney and I14 have been dealing with this issue, I have15 not seen any increase, and Councilman16 Kenney just spoke about a couple of17 situations where there actually has been18 a decrease in the number of stores that19 provide recyclable bins.20 My point is -- and I don't mean21 this to be disrespectful -- the industry22 has not done anything, in my opinion, to23 educate the public about the need to24 recycle, the need to recycle, because of25 14 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 the impact on our environment.2 And I understand that there are3 those on the other side who claim or4 maybe have statistical information that5 says that paper bag create more pollution6 because they're heavier and you have to7 use more trucks to transport 'em.8 But at the end of the day, the9 paper bag is disposable, it's10 biodegradable, it breaks down, while the11 plastic bag never goes away.12

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Ms. Jackson

That's the point.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I hear5 you.6 Again, I don't want to belabor7 the record. As Councilman Kenney said,8 the Chairman said earlier, we've already9 had this testimony.10 I just want to close by saying11 that for me, this has always been an12 issue of trash and about the environment.13 And if the City of Philadelphia, under14 this administration, has been making15 claims that we are going to be the16 greenest city in the country, I don't see17 how we will ever accomplish that if we do18 not address the issue of plastic bags,19 plastic bottles, and other types of20 material that end up in our streets, in21 our sewers, in our rivers, and just22 causing major environmental problems for23 us. I don't know how we get to that24 goal.25 18 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 And that may not be your2 problem, but that's something I think3 that we need to address.4

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Ms. Jackson

No, I too -- go5 ahead.6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And one7 other point, and I'll end.8 The last hearing we had, I9 think it was the gentleman behind you --10 it may have been him, I don't remember11 his name -- who has a company that12 manufactures plastic bags. I had13 suggested that maybe through your14 lobbyists maybe spending a little more15 time in Washington than in the halls of16 City Hall in Philadelphia, talking to the17 Obama Administration about stimulus money18 that might be able to be used to set up19 facilities to deal with the issue of20 recycling plastic and turning 'em into21 other products. I don't know if that's22 been done. I haven't heard anything from23 anyone.24 But there's a lot of time25 19 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that's been spent by lobbyists in this2 building, but I don't know much time, if3 any, has been spent in Washington to4 address this issue. You have an5 administration in Washington who's6 extremely environmentally-friendly, not7 like the last administration that was in8 Washington.9 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.10

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Ms. Jackson

But, again,4 another point that needs to be made5 that's often overlooked when you're6 talking about recycling of these bags:7 92 percent of these bags are reused in8 the household. You have to have that9 material available to recycle it.10 If most people are reusing it11 for trashcan liners, pet pickup, and12 other uses, it's not available to13 recycle. Those bags that are not being14 reused, those are the bags we're15 encouraging people to recycle at their16 stores because that is the best way to17 get a clean stream of this material.18

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Ms. Jackson

That involves,5 you know, signage at the stores, bins at6 the stores that say, you know, these are7 the types of materials that are accepted8 for recycling here.9 That also involves their10 checkout people having things to say11 like, "You can recycle this bag. We have12 bins in the store to do that." Their13 checkers are saying often reminders that,14 again, "Don't forget to recycle your15 plastic bags."16 'Cause what we're finding out17 is that a lot of people don't realize18 that these bags are recycled. Once you19 educate them that, one, they are20 recyclable and, two, where to do it,21 people are more than willing to22 participate; at least that was what we23 found out in that example.24

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Ms. Jackson

Welcome more22 stores, bring more stores into this23 effort. You know, encourage more of them24 to use the signage, to have the education25 29 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 as part of their promotion of reusable2 bags.3 So -- and, again, it requires4 the stores as partners in the effort. If5 they don't, you know, adopt that attitude6 or pick up on that policy, then you just7 have bins without no guidance as to what8 to do with them. It will affect the9 stream. In fact, people will put10 anything in the bins and contaminate a11 potential recycling stream.12 So we need willing partners to13 in that education effort.14

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Councilman Jones

Thank you,15 Mr. Chairman.16 I can't tell you how frustrated17 some of my colleagues here are with the18 lack of progress that has been made by19 way of the plastic bag industry, whether20 it's the retailers' fault, whether it's21 the manufacturers' fault, whoever's fault22 it is.23 The unintended consequences24 that there are Councilpeople up here that25 31 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 walk through districts that are looking2 at tumbleweeds rolling down the street3 and are becoming increasingly more4 frustrated as we start to try to reduce5 our burden of cleaning this city through6 a more sensible approach to dealing with7 the plastic bag situation.8 Having said that, because I9 have to hear these guys who are kicking10 me under the table about my position and11 some of the considerations that I have as12 a District Councilperson. Having said13 that, a couple of quick questions:14 If, in fact, this bill was15 passed with a timetable of something in16 the neighborhood of two to three years,17 would that be more acceptable, with a18 review annually as to the progress of the19 industry in recycling and things like20 that?21 I'm just trying to get some22 feedback as to, would that be less23 onerous to our ability to move towards24 degradability, biodegradable plastic, to25 32 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 move towards a sound recycling process?2 Would that be a little more palatable?3

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Ms. Jackson

In terms of the19 industry, I mean, there are various20 incentives that we can put forward or we21 can consider for recycling.22 Right now, we're finding that23 public education and aggressive public24 education works in other areas to25 33 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 increase recycling.2 There are retailers providing3 incentives, rebates. If you bring your4 reusable bag back or if you bring your5 plastic bags back for recycling, they do6 -- they do provide certain incentives for7 their customers.8

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Councilman Jones

So as I24 looked at other things that are going on25 40 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 and other options and we talking about 252 cents and a 1 percent sales tax increase3 at the state level, consumers are making4 choices of whether or not to be good5 citizens, to recycle, or whether to take6 the hit in their pockets.7 So I'm looking at every option8 there is to achieve the goal of recycling9 without providing an onerous kind of10 burden financially on poor people in the11 City of Philadelphia. So that's where12 I'm at.13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.14

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Ms. Jackson

There are5 countless jurisdictions, local6 jurisdictions, that are considering bans,7 but the vast majority have not decided to8 go that route.9 There are a handful cities in10 California that have actually banned11 plastic bags, and that occurred last12 year, but, as I said, it's a handful.13 This has been considered for14 the past couple of years throughout the15 country in many jurisdictions. And most16 of them have decided not to go the ban17 route.18

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Ms. Jackson

Among our13 manufacturers, they have looked at that14 issue. There have been some issues15 identified with that. And, you know, I16 can only speak for the PBA.17 Again, it's something they have18 considered, but it's not something19 they're embracing. You have to realize,20 when you have -- when you change the21 material like that and you recycle it,22 that will affect the ability of it to be23 a recyclable product.24 And one of our manufacturers, a25 43 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 major recycler of these bags, back into2 bags themselves and back into other3 products. So if, you know, if you have4 that particular component to it, it's5 going to affect the recyclability of that6 bag.7 It's something that is being8 looked at by our members that's not9 something that's used.10

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Councilwoman Miller

Okay,6 because I think more and more people are7 becoming more and more conscious of this.8 Sure, education, of course, is key.9 I've even noticed it in10 watching TV. I saw a commercial, and11 this company has been, of course, having12 commercials for years on TV, but now I13 notice that they've changed the bag.14 It's a commercial of people purchasing15 something from a store, and now it looks16 like they've changed the bag -- well,17 they have changed the bag that they18 normally showed in the commercial a few19 years ago.20 And so it seems to me that more21 and more people are becoming, you know,22 more and more aware and actually visually23 showing the changes on TV.24 And so, I would think, though,25 45 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that, you know, the companies would be2 repositioning themselves so that they3 can, you know, survive if --4 And I know that everybody's not5 going to change at once, but I think if6 there's a big movement to change this,7 the -- and I'm glad that you did mention8 that the when the supermarkets and other9 stores talk about recycling the bags, and10 my question, I was sitting here thinking,11 Well, what happens when you put the bags12 in those bins, what happens then? What's13 the next step? Do they actually do14 anything with the bags?15 Sure, I'm familiar with those16 incentives where they ask you to bring17 the bag back in, and I think you get two18 cents off when you use a recycled bag for19 your groceries. But other than that, I20 was wondering what actually are the21 companies doing with the bags that are22 placed in the bins?23

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Ms. Jackson

I mean, the bags24 are -- there's a system put in place25 46 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 where the bags are picked up by a hauler2 and taken either to a storage facility3 where they are compacted, and then that4 is picked up by another company. Right5 now, the largest recycler of these bags6 is Trex; they make outdoor decking and7 construction materials, and they take8 that material back and they use it in the9 manufacturer of their product.10

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Councilman Rizzo

Again, I2 want to repeat that I don't think that3 we've communicated well enough in-house4 to our constituents that the plastic bag5 is something that can be put into the6 recycling container that's collected by7 the City.8 And, again, the reuse of the9 bag, I think, is significant.10 The -- I think the convenience11 of having a plastic bag, especially for12 an impromptu stop at a convenience store13 or a drugstore to pick up a couple of14 items, you don't have a reusable bag with15 you. It's -- to me, it would not be16 something that I would be supportive of,17 eliminating the plastic bag.18 But I have a couple questions.19 What would be the unintended consequence?20 I recently shopped in, I think it's,21 Whole Foods, that when I checked out,22 they gave me a paper bag. I don't even23 think I saw a plastic bag in the store.24 What is the unintended25 48 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 consequence of switching to paper? And2 if that was a alternative, would it be3 recycled?4 And I know you don't represent5 the paper industry, but do you have6 any -- I'm sure that you're prepared to7 discuss what the unintended consequence8 would be to give me a paper bag.9 I -- you know, really, I don't10 care if it's paper, if it's plastic. All11 I know is, I don't want to walk down the12 street with a toot brush in one hand and13 a bottle of shampoo in the other; I want14 to something to put it in. And I'm not15 going to carry a reusable bag with me all16 the time in the event I want to stop at a17 store.18 So what would -- do you have19 any -- does your industry know what the20 unintended consequence would be to switch21 to paper bags? Would it raise the price22 that you pay at the store? I'm sure23 you're prepared to --24

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Ms. Jackson

Well, again, I go25 49 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 back to the San Francisco example, where2 they banned plastic bags, so the only bag3 that was available was paper bags, and4 one of the results of that, one of the5 consequences is, there was excess use of6 paper, there was more litter of paper7 bags than there was of plastic bags, you8 know, following the ban, and that9 resulted in excess packaging from the10 paper bag, because that plastic bag is a11 much more durable bag.12 So the consequences there13 showed there was more excess bagging and14 an increase in litter following the15 result of that ban on plastic only16 initiative.17

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Ms. Jackson

Well, in terms of4 degrading in a landfill, the -- that's5 not the issue because most things that go6 in a landfill, they're designed for7 nothing to biodegrade. Nothing8 biodegrades in a landfill, in a properly9 designed landfill; they're not designed10 that way -- not paper, not plastic, not11 anything. That's just the way they're12 designed.13 The issue you're talking about14 with biodegradability has a concern with15 the environment, with it being left out16 in the environment as litter and how long17 it takes to degrade once it's out of that18 environment.19

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Councilman Kenney

Tell me2 what -- look, I don't want to continue to3 argue this thing because -- and I'm sorry4 to interrupt, but what have you done,5 what has this industry done to keep6 people or to educate people from7 littering?8 Because the reason we're here9 is because the stuff is all over the10 place: It's in the street, it's in the11 trees, it's in the river. There's an12 island in the Pacific twice the size of13 Texas. And that's why we're here.14 And so if you guys aren't going15 to incentivize people or educate people16 to recycle or not to litter, what is it17 you're doing? 'cause I don't see it. All18 I see is what I trip over the curb or19 what's hanging out of every tree in my20 neighborhood.21

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Councilman Rizzo

I agree15 there needs to be more done, but I think16 the convenience of having a receptacle to17 carry your purchases home at the outlet18 is so important, whether it be paper,19 whether it be plastic.20 So I don't understand why Whole21 Foods can replace the plastic bag with a22 paper one; it didn't matter to me. All I23 know is, I had one in each hand and I was24 on my way.25 56 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 So, these degradable bags, are2 they as strong? I noticed that the3 quality of some of the bags, the handles4 break on them when you only -- when you5 just put a few items on them.6 What is the hesitancy to making7 a switch to a plastic that is more8 degradable, for lack of, you know, the9 proper terms here? I don't know what a10 whole lot about this issue, but what is11 the hesitancy in making the shift to a12 material that is more forgiving to the13 environment?14

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Ms. Miller

Good morning. My13 name is Suzanne B. Miller, and I work14 with the Mayor's Office of15 Sustainability.16 Currently, I think City Council17 knows, the Administration, the Streets18 Department introduced curbside recycling,19 weekly curbside recycling, in every20 neighborhood this past January.21 However, the only plastics that22 are currently able to be recycled in23 those recycling bins are those labeled24 "1" and "2."25 59 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 It's a little complicated, but2 there are sort of different types of3 plastic, if you will. And, currently,4 the City will only pick up those labeled5 "1" and "2."6 So plastic bags cannot be put7 into the curbside recycling bins.8

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Councilwoman Brown

And how6 eventually there had to be a stakeholders7 group including government, retailers,8 and environmentalists -- and I would9 consumers so that we actually get a10 consumer's perspective on this measure to11 assist in defining how they would roll12 out or how they did roll out the13 educational piece, which I think is vital14 anytime you're trying to change anybody's15 behavior.16 So could you simply speak to,17 where do you see value in that? When18 we're talking about growing a sustainable19 city, it's not going to happen at the20 snap of a finger; it really requires21 changing thinking, which ultimately22 changes behavior.23

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Ms. Miller

And speaking from15 a personal issue here, you know, there's16 a local supermarket in my neighborhood17 that when you ask for paper, you can't18 get it.19 Now, to me, that's a problem20 when -- you know, here I am a consumer21 who wants to do the right thing and I've22 forgotten my reusable bag that day and I23 try to ask the supermarket to give me a24 paper bag, and it's unavailable. So --25 62 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741

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Councilman Rizzo

Do you think18 you could go back to whoever handles our19 recycling and indicate that we want to20 include the plastic bags into our21 recycling?22 The point being is, most people23 that recycle use the plastic bag to load24 it up with plastic bottles, take it to25 63 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 the -- carry it with four or five bottles2 in it, and they throw it in the recycling3 bin. The plastic bag's in there, so what4 do they do; take it, out ignore it?5 Why don't we see if we can't6 get this included into our collection7 process. I don't think that this is a8 big deal to get that done.9

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Ms. Miller

Well, I -- I will10 try to answer that question as best I11 can, but I think the Streets Department12 can probably address it more accurately.13 My understanding, as I said14 earlier, is that it's sort of the market15 for those materials. So currently -- I16 mean, let me back up a little bit.17 The City used to be paid for18 its recycling. Currently, the City pays19 to have that recycling collected under a20 contract that's renegotiated every six21 months. We're still paying less for22 recycled materials to haul those away23 than we are for regular municipal trash,24 so we're still saving money the more that25 64 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 people recycle.2 Yet, again, it's really the3 market for the 1's and 2's that is the4 strongest. It would cost the City money5 to collect the 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, and6 7's in those bags and get rid of them.7

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Ms. Jackson

I mean, again,22 the key to that was that it was a23 partnership. Everybody in that effort24 was committed to that effort and to25 69 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 making it work, and that's why it worked.2 They had the same goal, they wanted to3 reduce the waste and the litter4 associated with the bags. They took that5 comprehensive approach.6 And everybody played a role in7 that. You know, the retailers played a8 roll and stepped up to the education that9 was needed to, you know, encourage people10 to recycle those bags. And industry11 stepped up in providing the signage and12 the tools and what was needed to help13 with that education effort.14 The City has to promote, you15 know, the recycling of bags --16

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Councilman Jones

Thank you,9 Mr. Chairman.10 One of the reasons why we have11 these hearings is to hash out ideas,12 exchange views, and one of the things I13 was really looking to hear was a14 proactive "how we're going to get it done15 better in the future." The frustration16 that my colleagues have is that we've17 done all of this before and talked about18 this before, and we're here again, with19 very little, very little progress and20 movement.21 And what I hoped to have heard22 today from the industry and from others23 is how we kind of get to a place where we24 get to a win/win scenario, where the City25 71 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 isn't -- the environment isn't suffering2 from this.3 And I really hear -- I hear4 buzz words like "education" and5 "recycling," but no action steps,6 tangible action steps, in my opinion,7 towards that. And that -- that concerns8 me deeply.9

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Councilman Kenney

Seeing22 none -- I just want to make sure we23 understand. We have a 10 o'clock Finance24 Committee hearing, which is now overdue,25 72 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 as we speak, so I would ask any witnesses2 to please do not give us testimony that3 was given in the last hearings but to4 give us new testimony, 'cause I also5 understand that there may be an agreement6 for an amendment to the legislation,7 which is pending.8 So Randy St. John and Rocco9 D'Antonio, please.10 (Witnesses come forward.)11

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Mr. St. John

I passed on my4 written testimony to you.5 Perhaps I could start by6 reacting to Councilmember Jones. We7 would be very, very, very happy to meet8 formally, informally, discuss all of the9 ideas that have been brought forward10 today. We're totally open to that.11 We would be happy to join you12 or any of the other members of the13 Council and discuss any of the14 suggestions that you or Mr. Rizzo have15 raised today. So please know that we're16 willing to do that at any moment.17 We want to do what's best for18 the City, the same way that you do. Our19 members live here, the same way that you20 do. And today's question concerns the21 best way to bring things home from the22 store, Mr. Rizzo your question.23 When we consider all of the24 alternatives, we still think that plastic25 74 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 is the best way to do it. It's2 recyclable, each new bag is clean, it's3 sanitary, plastic bags are cheaper and4 more environmentally-friendly to produce5 and transport than paper.6 Let's consider what the7 alternatives are:8 Compostable bags. I think9 we've covered that. We think that10 there's a problem because there's not a11 facility in Philadelphia to compost them.12 If there were a facility here, we'd have13 to address the question of how we're14 going to get them from consumers to a15 composting facility, and I think that's a16 problem haven't really solved yet.17 We think that reusable bags are18 a good idea as long as they're kept clean19 and sanitary, but I worry that reusable20 bags aren't regularly cleaned, and they21 have the possibility of contaminating22 food that's brought home in them.23 When you go to a grocery store,24 the bagger puts the raw meat in one25 75 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 plastic bag and your fruits and2 vegetables in another plastic bag for a3 reason: Unpackaged foods like fruit can4 easily be contaminated by being5 co-mingled with potentially hazardous6 foods like raw meat. When you put all of7 these things together in a reusable bag,8 there's a possibility of9 cross-contamination.10 We think that paper is harder11 on the environment to produce and12 transport than plastic, and the plastic13 industry people have already addressed14 that. Paper bags also leak, they tear15 easily when wet, something that plastic16 doesn't do.17 But what's good about18 plastic -- that it doesn't fall apart,19 that it doesn't leak when it's wet -- is20 also what's bad about plastic. When it's21 littered, it persists, it blows around,22 it becomes an eyesore.23 So what are we going to do?24 Are we going to ban plastic because its25 76 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 good qualities are also its bad qualities2 when its littered? Or should we build3 upon plastic recycling programs that are4 already in place, develop stronger5 programs to encourage more recycling and6 develop better and more comprehensive7 programs to prevent littering?8 We think that when all of the9 alternatives are considered, we should10 stick with the plastic.11 If we think that we're going to12 do social engineering on Philadelphians13 to change their behavior by the use of14 penalties and incentives, then let's use15 those techniques to encourage recycling16 and prevent littering.17 We think it's the most18 effective to get people to get their19 products home without contamination and20 while causing the least amount of21 environmental harm. So if we can22 strengthen current plastic bag recycling23 programs, add new programs to discourage24 littering, we think that we have a25 77 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 realistic strategy to make Philadelphia a2 better place for all of us to live.3

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Mr. D'Antonio

Rocco8 D'Antonio, Business Development Manager9 for Penn Jersey Paper in Philadelphia.10 We're a supplier of plastic bags and11 paper bags and reusable bags and also12 compostable trashcan liners.13 I just want to comment on some14 of the things I heard this morning and15 some of the comments that have come up.16 One of them was, what if we went to17 paper? Well, there's a lot of what-if's18 of going to paper. One of 'em, quite19 frankly, is, we make a lot more money.20 Paper bags are excessively more expensive21 than plastic. We work off margin, we22 take more money to the bank as a company,23 and that's going to be at the expense of24 the supermarket industry and also the25 78 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 residents of Philadelphia.2 And having said that, we're3 still opposed to this type of4 legislation.5 But some of the other what-if's6 are, we would have to increase our7 warehouse space of plastic bags tenfold8 to accommodate paper bags. Paper bags9 take up ten times the amount of space, so10 we would have a tenfold increase in our11 warehouse space for paper bags,12 subsequently ten times more trucking to13 the stores, and subsequently ten times14 more space in any given store to store15 paper bags. And when you look at some of16 these smaller convenience stores, trying17 to find ten times the amount of space is18 almost impossible.19 So going to paper bags doesn't20 make a whole lot of sense when you look21 at all of the different pieces of the22 puzzle that you need to evaluate to see23 if it make sense to the City of24 Philadelphia.25 79 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 Also, I heard time and time2 again that people are not recycling3 plastic bags and it stopped, or stores4 have stopped. And I got to tell you that5 is absolutely incorrect.6 I'm the one that set up our7 plastic bag recycling program with8 independent supermarkets in Philadelphia9 and South Jersey. We did it about two,10 two-and-a-half years ago, and we had11 nothing but increase in plastic bag12 recycling per store on a month-to-month13 basis.14 Every month, our volume is15 increasing. When we started this, we16 were picking up plastic bags and also a17 large volume of plastic stretch film from18 the supermarkets.19 In the beginning, we were20 probably picking up about 75 percent21 stretch film and 25 percent plastic bags.22 Now, I can tell you, we're more like 6523 to 70 percent plastic bags, the balance24 being stretch film. Our volume has grown25 80 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 every single month per store -- not just2 adding new stores, but the volume per3 store has increased.4 And I can put my finger on that5 number any given store 'cause we collect6 it, we process it, we weigh it, and we7 ship the product off for reprocessing.8 One of the questions was, where9 do they plastic bags go? Well, we10 partnered with Goodwill Industries of11 Philadelphia and Southern New Jersey to12 help us in the collection. We've13 invested in bailers, vehicles. We're14 employing disabled citizens in our15 communities to help in the recycling16 efforts.17 We're collecting these bags18 every day of the week in the City of19 Philadelphia and bringing them back to20 Good Will's facility, where we process21 them, we clean out contaminates, we bail22 'em up and we ship 'em out in23 40,000-pound loads to go out and make24 plastic lumber. And every month, my25 81 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 volume has increased.2 So I don't know where these3 comments of "we see this going away" come4 from.5

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Mr. D'Antonio

Well, I don't15 know how you (indiscernible) that's one16 of the stores I'm dealing with, but I've17 had two locations in the past two years18 that we've had issues with. One was --19 it wasn't even a supermarket; it was a20 bad place for us to put our bins, we had21 nothing but contamination, and we have22 stopped picking up there.23 I had one supermarket that we24 didn't get a whole lot of buy-in. That25 82 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 has since changed, they're back on our2 program.3 So cooperation from my4 customers in the City of Philadelphia has5 been strong and growing and continues to6 grow.7 And, again, I base that on8 facts and figures and weights and9 measures from picking up our plastic.10

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Mr. D'Antonio

I also want to13 comment on the concept of degradable bags14 and compostable bags.15 You know, when I hear the words16 "recyclable" and "compostable" in the17 same sentence regarding plastic bags, it18 doesn't make a lot of sense to me.19 Recyclable bags, obviously,20 cannot be composted, and compostable bags21 can't be recycled. And the fact that we22 would talk about having compostable bags23 in the City of Philadelphia doesn't make24 a lot of sense because we have nowhere to25 83 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 even take these compostable bags.2 They're about ten times more3 expensive than plastic bags. They need4 to be made three times heavier than5 plastic bags to have the same strength.6 But ultimately, when the7 consumer gets home with that compostable8 bag, there's absolutely nowhere to bring9 it for processing. There's no commercial10 composting facilities nearby, and compost11 facilities do not accept the compostable12 grocery bags because there's too highly a13 chance of them being mixed with regular14 plastic bags. So all of that extra cost15 and extra material ends up going into a16 landfill.17 So it makes absolutely no sense18 to even suggest using compostable bags19 when you have no way to even process or20 compost or do anything.21 And by eliminating these22 plastic bags altogether, you're going to23 eliminate a successful recycling program24 that we've already implemented. You25 84 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 eliminate the need -- the opportunity to2 recycle your grocery bags, your stretch3 film, your dry-cleaning bags, your4 newspaper bags. All that goes away when5 you get rid of plastic bags.6 So I don't see where trying to7 do something for the environment by8 eliminating recycling and going to a9 product that can't be composted, can't be10 recycled, is increasingly more expensive,11 and hasn't been proven longterm anywhere12 in the United States makes a lot of sense13 for the City of Philadelphia.14 I also heard comments about,15 you know, how do we do this better? where16 do we go from here?17 What we found is that education18 and training, working with all the19 stakeholders -- City government,20 manufacturers, food industry,21 nonprofits -- to educate everyone on the22 benefits of using less and recycling more23 has been by far the most effective way.24 I mean, we're a small company.25 85 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 We deal in a very small part of the world2 in Philadelphia, but we've been able to3 educate our customers, which are the4 supermarkets, and help them educate their5 customers on how to use less plastic bags6 and also less paper bags and less7 packaging.8 And we have seen a trend of9 selling less plastic bags to our10 customers, selling more reusable bags,11 and seeing more reusable bags reused in12 the store. And, again, we base that on13 hard data, not just eyeballing what I see14 at the supermarket checkout.15 So we see progress and we feel16 that cooperation with all of the17 stakeholders on a comprehensive education18 plan is more effective than thinking that19 in passing a law, you're going to change20 everyone's consumer behavior.21 Thank you.22 COUNCILMAN KENNEY:23 Councilmember Brown.24

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Mr. D'Antonio

Well, we do7 several things.8 One is education for a9 supermarket owner-operator. We want to10 really understand the bags he's using,11 how he's using them, how they're packing12 'em, how many items per bag. We want to13 quantify all of that data.14 And what that tells us are two15 things: A, do we have the right size bag16 in the store, can we use a smaller bag17 and use less plastic or a smaller paper18 bag. And, number two, it gives us a19 benchmark to see if our training works.20 So we start with that data, and21 then we train the cashiers on how to22 effectively bag.23 But that's only a fraction of24 what we need to do. The real training25 87 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 and education is with the consumer 'cause2 what we found, no matter how much we3 train a cashier, it's the customer that4 ultimately trains the cashier. I want my5 meat in a separate bag. I'm 75 years old6 and I can only carry five pounds and7 can't put too much in my bag.8 So it's an educational campaign9 also for the consumer about the benefits10 of reusing less and recycling more. And11 we found that to be very, very effective.12

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Mr. D'Antonio

Well, we're21 fortunate enough that, A, we sell the22 bags to the stores, so we have data23 showing how much we're selling.24 Two, we work with the stores to25 88 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 look at their scanner data to see how2 many reusable bags were reused or sold3 and how many bags were returned, the4 plastic bags reused. So we have that5 data.6 Three, I physically pick up7 those plastic bags every single day in8 supermarkets throughout the region, and9 we weigh those bags.10 So I have sound data that I can11 measure: A, I'm selling less plastic12 bags and less paper bags to the same13 account that I did before. Two, they're14 buying more reusable bags from me.15 Three, more reusable bags are being16 reused in the store. And, four, my17 volume per store on plastic film and18 plastic bags recovered has increased on19 an ongoing basis for the past two years.20 So I have data that supports my21 claims that we've made progress.22 Now, we still have a lot more23 to do, we still want to do better24 merchandising and marketing on our25 89 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 reusable bags, we still want to get more2 information out there on what we're doing3 with the recycling, where our plastic4 bags go.5 And we continue to do that and6 we continue to be successful. And I'm7 sure as we go forward, we're going to be8 more successful.9 You can't change consumer10 behavior overnight. I mean, we've been11 doing what we've been doing for 20, 30,12 40 years. And passing a law isn't going13 to change everybody's mindset. It does14 take a little longer to educate, and it15 is a little more frustrating, but we see16 tangible evidence that the results of our17 hard work have been paying off.18

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Mr. St. John

Mr. Kenney and2 Mr. DiCicco, we understand how serious3 you are about this and we understand how4 frustrating this is for you. I know that5 you want to see more progress than has6 been made.7 Please understand that we're8 willing to come in and see you at anytime9 to bounce any ideas off that you have for10 strategies that are going to make things11 better.12 We don't want the City to be a13 mess either. So we may disagree about14 the right way to get to the goal. We15 share the same goal. And, again, we're16 willing to come in at anytime to see you17 to discuss any ideas you want to talk18 about.19

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Mr. Freiji

Good morning. My24 name is George Freiji. I work for Hilex25 94 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 Poly. I'm here this morning representing2 the company and our Pennsylvania plant.3 Just very quickly about Hilex,4 and then I want to spend my time really5 addressing some of the questions that all6 of you brought up this morning.7 At Hilex, we have nine8 manufacturing facilities in the United9 States. We support about 5,000 families,10 about 600 family members in Pennsylvania,11 in the Milesburg area, Central County.12 In the last few years, we13 invested $20 million in a recycling14 facility, and it's one of its kind in the15 world; it's specifically designed for16 plastic bags.17 We teach, we preach, and we18 practice the principles of reduce, reuse19 and recycle. And I will address those20 with you here in a few minutes, how we do21 this.22 We understand, again, the23 intent of this bill, but we think it will24 have negative consequences. And that was25 95 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 one of your questions, Mr. Rizzo, what2 are the negative consequences? And I3 will talk to that in a few minutes.4 Let's start with that, some of5 the negative consequences. What happens6 if you ban plastic bags? What do you go7 to? What's the alternative?8 Compostable bags are flat-out9 bad, just bad. The reason for that is,10 you use twice the amount of plastic at11 least, minimal, in a compostable bag than12 you use in a regular bag to maintain the13 strength.14 And the most important thing15 is, they are not recyclable. Not only16 are they not recyclable, but you can't17 put them with the recycling stream that18 exists currently, 'cause then you can't19 recycle anything.20 So if I get a compostable bag21 at home, then what do I do with it? You22 cannot use it in your composting in your23 back yard. What do I do with it? What24 happens to it?25 96 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 Exactly. So it has to go to2 specific sites, approved sites, in the3 United States for it to be degraded.4 Number two. Why waste the5 resources that you have? You use this6 plastic -- we said you going to use twice7 as much as plastic to make it disappear.8 While in regular plastic bags, we can9 recapture those resources and reuse 'em10 again through recycling.11 Reusable bags, again, are made12 out of plastic, most of them. Most of13 them are made outside the United States,14 and most of them are made in countries15 who care less in most cases or have a lot16 less stringent environmental laws than we17 do. In essence, we would be shipping18 jobs overseas if we go to reusable bags.19 And there are some studies that20 were published actually early this month21 that discuss some of the health issues22 with the reusable bags.23 I think, Ms. Jones [sic], you24 asked what happens with the bags when25 97 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 they end up in the recycling bins. We2 collect those bags --3

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Mr. Freiji

Oh, I'm sorry.6 We collect those bags and then7 we take them to our recycling facility,8 and we recycle 'em and we put 'em back in9 plastic bags.10 Mr. Kenney, you asked if we11 have reduced the amount of plastic bags.12 I can talk about our company. We have13 active programs that teach reduce, reuse,14 and recycle. And how do we do it? We15 train people in stores -- packers,16 cashiers, change in general -- to use17 more items per bag.18 Let me give you an example. An19 average of four items per bag typically20 you see across the country. We teach 'em21 to put six items per bag. If you put22 (indiscernible) more item per bag, you23 just reduced 25 percent of plastic bag24 use. We do this all the time.25 98 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 If an item has a handle, don't2 pack it. If you just buy a piece of gum3 don't pack it. You know, those kind of4 things.5 Back to our recycling facility.6 It's maxed out now. You hear people --7 misinformation about bags are not8 recyclable. We've maxed out our9 recycling facilities and we are adding10 more to be able to consume these -- the11 bags that we get back.12 A timetable. Mr. Brown [sic],13 you asked abut a timetable and about14 taxing maybe perhaps 2 cents a bag. Any15 tax on a bag, when it costs less than a16 penny, when you tax it 2 cents, you're17 taxing, you know, 200 percent more. You18 pretty much banning it, you're pretty19 much banning it. Anything you tax at 2,20 3, 400 percent -- you know, initially it21 was 25 cents -- well, you're basically22 saying you just don't want it.23 We invite you, I invite you, to24 come to our Milesburg facility. It's 20025 99 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 miles from here. Look at the folks,2 shake their hands, look 'em in the eye;3 those are the people who will lose their4 jobs eventually, will end up in China or5 India or Vietnam.6 And look at our facilities.7 Look at the cleanliness of the8 facilities. Look at our environment9 around us in Center County. We're the10 second-largest employer in Center County.11 I don't understand, when our12 recycling programs are working very well,13 we're just launching into more and more14 progress in that area. We come in and15 just kill it.16 I worked with the Secretary of17 Labor, Sandy (indiscernible) for one year18 on a plastic committee, trying to19 increase, promote the plastic industry in20 Pennsylvania. A bill like this will kill21 everything we worked on. Pennsylvania,22 Ohio, Indiana is one of the largest23 manufacturers of plastic in the United24 States.25 100 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 So our concern is, absolutely,2 we invite you. We would love to sit with3 you and discuss options rather -- I mean,4 this is not a format really where you can5 sit down and do problem-solving if you6 want to discuss ideas and things of that7 nature.8

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Councilwoman Brown

Good22 morning.23 MS. McDANIELS: Perhaps at an24 alternation [sic] to the tax idea, the25 101 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 second bill consisted of we ban plastic2 bags altogether. Instead of allowing3 stores to provide stores a cheaper and4 more convenient plastic bags, this bill5 will require that stores use only paper6 bags, bags that can be composed [sic] or7 reused bags.8 I am opposed to this bill, to9 paper bags. And the other bags10 mentioned -- composed and reusable11 bags -- are almost as expensive as12 plastic bags. This will increase our13 cost to pass to the consumer by the store14 owners, another cost to the consumer.15 Paper bags are more neatly in16 convention [sic] for the carrying of a17 person. They don't always have handles18 that we can carry from -- another cost19 increase to the consumer. Paper bags are20 not nearly as convenient for me to carry21 by my purchasing. They don't always22 leave -- have handles as many of the23 plastic bags do. They are24 (indiscernible) and bulky.25 102 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 I'm not sure why these bills2 have been introduced, but maybe as to3 contain littering. I do think that4 littering is a problem, but I think the5 that it's different ways to tackle this6 problem.7 Also, on my way here, I took a8 look at the litter on the streets, and I9 saw more paper and cigarettes on the10 streets and sidewalks than I saw plastic11 bags.12 I think that litter is an issue13 but to be tackled through education.14 Perhaps have education about recycling15 other kinds of trash, and they can be16 educated about recycling and picking up17 trash bags.18 I reuse my trash bags. I19 either take them back to the store or I20 use them at home.21 And I urge you to work with22 your (indiscernible) that over plastic23 bags when they are more important issues24 in the City of Philadelphia that we can25 103 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 be tackling with.2

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Councilman Kenney

It's been8 moved and seconded.9 All in favor, aye?10 Any opposed?11 Bill No. 090074 will be amended12 accordingly.13 The Chair recognizes14 Councilmember Brown for a motion on the15 amended Bill 090074.16 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN:17 Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 09007418 be moved out of committee, as amended,19 with a favorable recommendation, and I20 further move that the rules of Council be21 suspended so as to permit first reading22 at our next session.23 (Motion duly seconded.)24

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Councilman Kenney

Bill No.5 090074, as amended, will be reported out6 of this committee favorably, and a7 request will be made for a rules8 suspension to allow for first reading at9 our next Council session.10 Thank you for your patience.11 The Finance Committee should be12 getting started shortly.13 Thank you.14 (Proceedings end at 10:34 a.m.)15 * * *16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 C E R T I F I C A T E2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the4 proceedings of the City of Philadelphia5 Council Committee on the Environment are6 contained fully and accurately in the7 stenographic notes taken by me on Wednesday,8 June 10, 2009, and that this is a true and9 correct statement of same.10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________15 JOSEPHINE CARDILLO16 Registered Professional Reporter 17 18 19 20 (The foregoing certification of21 this transcript does not apply to any22 reproduction of the same by any means, unless23 under the direct control and/or supervision of24 the certifying reporter.)25

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