COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT3 - - -4 Room 400, City Hall5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 9:20 a.m.6 - - -7 8 9 Bill 090074 - Amending Chapter 9-600 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and Other10 Businesses," by adding a new Section 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of Recyclable and11 Compostable Checkout Bags." 12 Bill 090075 - Held at request of sponsor. 13 14 15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: James F. Kenney, Chair16 Blondell Reynolds Brown, Vice Chair Curtis Jones, Jr.17 Donna Reed Miller Frank Rizzo18 Maria D. Quiñones-Sanchez 19 20 21 - - -22 V A R A L L O Incorporated23 Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 60024 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.267025 2 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Good2 morning, ladies and gentlemen.3 The Council Committee on the4 Environment is now in session to take5 testimony on:6 Bill No. 090074, which is an7 ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of the8 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and9 Other Businesses," by adding a new10 Section 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of11 Recyclable and Compostable Checkout12 Bags," all under certain terms and13 conditions.14 Bill No. 090075 will be held at15 the request of the sponsor, and there16 will be no testimony taken on that bill17 today.18 I'd like to make an19 announcement that since this bill has had20 hearings in the past, we will be21 accepting additional testimony that is22 different from the testimony that's been23 given in the past. The record is24 extremely clear on the position of both25 3 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 sides of the issue, and it serves no one2 any purpose to read into the record again3 the same testimony that was given at4 prior hearings.5 So if there's any other6 additional testimony to be given or a7 paraphrase of the testimony you want to8 offer, we'd be happy to hear that not,9 but we will not be taking extensive10 testimony based on what has already been11 said and is a part of the record.12 So that being said, the witness13 list that I have is: Shari Jackson. Is14 she here? Would you please come forward?15 (Witness comes forward.)16
Please17 identify yourself for the record and18 proceed.19
Sure. I'm Shari20 Jackson. I'm the director of the21 Progressive Bag Affiliates of the22 American Chemistry Council. 2 I just wanted to -- as you've3 stated, my comments have been submitted4 for the record on the 090075. 8 But I want to state at the9 outset that the PBA is committed to10 working with communities throughout this11 country to promote recycling and the12 proper disposal of bags. But I really13 kind of wanted to make three main points14 regarding this bill that's the subject of15 the hearing today:16 Basically, that bag bans do17 have unintentional consequences that can18 result in more environmental harm. There19 is a requirement in this bill for20 compostable bags that can cause some21 potential problems for the City. 2 Regarding the unintended3 consequences of bag bans -- and, again,4 this was stated before: We do support5 the objective of this bill to reduce6 litter, but we don't believe that a bag7 ban is the right approach to getting at8 this issue primarily because, as I've9 stated, there are unintentional10 environmental consequences. 15 Now when compared to paper, plastic bags16 do have a lighter environmental17 footprint. They require 70 percent less18 energy to manufacture, they generate half19 the greenhouse gas emissions, 80 percent20 less waste. 9 Another thing I want to mention10 here is that there was a recent view of11 life-cycle data on both disposal,12 biodegradable, and reusable bags. This13 was done by Robert Lilienfeld, who is the14 author of Use Less Stuff. And he has a15 Website that I certainly can provide to16 you to check out the information that17 he's provided and his review of this18 like-cycle study, but what he says in19 essence is this:20 Legislation that is designed to21 reduce the environmental impacts and22 litter by outgrowing grocery bags, based23 on the material from which they are24 produced, will not deliver the intended25 7 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 results. 22 And the last issue I'll address23 regarding this legislation is the24 provision for compostable plastic bags in25 8 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 this bill. 20
And just24 one comment regarding recyclables:25 9 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 We have had this discussion2 over the course of more than a year now.3 And after our first set of hearings,4 stores that were using the plastic bags5 stopped their recycling programs.6 People -- there were larger supermarkets7 that actually stopped their recycling8 program so that when people with good9 intention wanted to bring their plastic10 bags back to the store, the bins were11 removed.12 So I know it's being -- I know13 that recycling is going on around the14 country, but here, it seems the trend15 with the larger chain stores is that16 they're stopping their recycling.17 So that argument, while I18 understand that from a theoretical19 standpoint, it may be accurate, but from20 a practical standpoint, they're just not21 doing it anymore.22
Well, there23 are -- you'll hear from people here.24 There are stores doing that here.25 10 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 I would like to know about2 those stores that have stopped recycling3 their bags.4
'Cause it's8 one of his -- the store around the corner9 from him.10 Councilman DiCicco.11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,12 Mr. Chairman.13 Good morning, Miss Jackson.14 I was trying to follow your15 testimony; we don't have any written16 copies of it, do we? So I want to try my17 best to go back over a couple of issues.18 How many plastic bags are19 produced in this country a year?20
How many are21 produced? Countrywide, it's close to22 80 billion.23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Close to24 80 billion.25 11 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Mm-hmm.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What3 percentage of that 80 billion are being4 recycled.5
Currently,6 according to the US EPA, it's about7 12 percent.8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: About9 12 percent.10
Plastic bag and11 film, mm-hmm.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And what?13
Plastic bag and14 film; that means other product overwraps15 and dry-cleaning bags --16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Right,17 right.18
-- and the like.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But what20 percentage of plastic bags of the21 80 billion are being recycled?22
That's more like23 8 percent.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: 8 percent.25 12 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Mm-hmm.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: How many3 bags were being recycled two years ago?4
How many bags5 were --6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What7 percentage of the bags that were being8 produced two years ago?9
I don't have -- I10 don't have that information for two years11 ago.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Is it safe13 to say it's about the same percent?14
No. I mean, it's15 increasing. It has grown.16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: 5 percent?17
As I said, I18 don't have that information.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So it's 820 percent of 80 billion. Do you think that21 your industry has really done its job in22 trying to educate people, as they were23 promising us two years ago they would24 have done, to get people to be more25 13 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 conscious about these issues?2
The industry is3 doing what it can.4 This is -- the way we -- the5 best way for us to collect this material6 for recycling is through stores. So we7 need the partnership of those stores.8 When they are not working with us to put9 in place programs to educate people about10 recycling, it's harder for us to11 accomplish that.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But for13 two years, since Councilman Kenney and I14 have been dealing with this issue, I have15 not seen any increase, and Councilman16 Kenney just spoke about a couple of17 situations where there actually has been18 a decrease in the number of stores that19 provide recyclable bins.20 My point is -- and I don't mean21 this to be disrespectful -- the industry22 has not done anything, in my opinion, to23 educate the public about the need to24 recycle, the need to recycle, because of25 14 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 the impact on our environment.2 And I understand that there are3 those on the other side who claim or4 maybe have statistical information that5 says that paper bag create more pollution6 because they're heavier and you have to7 use more trucks to transport 'em.8 But at the end of the day, the9 paper bag is disposable, it's10 biodegradable, it breaks down, while the11 plastic bag never goes away.12
Well, the plastic13 bag --14 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Unless15 somebody takes the time to recycle it.16
Well, we can talk17 about, but plastic bags, that's just a18 misnomer [sic] that it doesn't go away or19 that it doesn't decompose; it does.20 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: How long?21
Again, we22 could -- it's not -- it's not the23 thousands of years you hear.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: How long,25 15 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 hundreds?2
No. It's three3 years tops.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Three5 years?6
Three years.7 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: A plastic8 bag will biodegrade in three years?9
(Indiscernible.)10 But just like the paper bag, it has to be11 the right conditions as well.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Has to13 what?14
Have the right15 conditions to decompose.16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, what17 are the right conditions?18
I mean, you know,19 appropriate sunlight and circumstances20 like that for it to decompose.21 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I guess22 I'm a little bit frustrated about this23 whole thing 'cause --24
And I understand25 16 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: -- hearing3 the same thing for two years.4
Well --5 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And your6 last -- towards the end of your7 statement, you mentioned something that's8 unfortunate, that the City of9 Philadelphia does not have a facility10 to -- what was that about?11
For composting.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And it's13 the City's fault?14
I'm not saying15 it's the City's fault.16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, no,17 you said it's unfortunate.18
It's unfortunate19 because that's a requirement in this20 bill, that compostable bags be allowed21 for -- there's an option to the plastic22 bag. There needs to be a facility to23 accommodate those bags; otherwise, they24 just go right into the waste stream.25 17 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: All right.2 I'm --3
That's the point.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I hear5 you.6 Again, I don't want to belabor7 the record. As Councilman Kenney said,8 the Chairman said earlier, we've already9 had this testimony.10 I just want to close by saying11 that for me, this has always been an12 issue of trash and about the environment.13 And if the City of Philadelphia, under14 this administration, has been making15 claims that we are going to be the16 greenest city in the country, I don't see17 how we will ever accomplish that if we do18 not address the issue of plastic bags,19 plastic bottles, and other types of20 material that end up in our streets, in21 our sewers, in our rivers, and just22 causing major environmental problems for23 us. I don't know how we get to that24 goal.25 18 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 And that may not be your2 problem, but that's something I think3 that we need to address.4
No, I too -- go5 ahead.6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And one7 other point, and I'll end.8 The last hearing we had, I9 think it was the gentleman behind you --10 it may have been him, I don't remember11 his name -- who has a company that12 manufactures plastic bags. I had13 suggested that maybe through your14 lobbyists maybe spending a little more15 time in Washington than in the halls of16 City Hall in Philadelphia, talking to the17 Obama Administration about stimulus money18 that might be able to be used to set up19 facilities to deal with the issue of20 recycling plastic and turning 'em into21 other products. I don't know if that's22 been done. I haven't heard anything from23 anyone.24 But there's a lot of time25 19 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that's been spent by lobbyists in this2 building, but I don't know much time, if3 any, has been spent in Washington to4 address this issue. You have an5 administration in Washington who's6 extremely environmentally-friendly, not7 like the last administration that was in8 Washington.9 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.10
Thank you.11 Before I recognize12 Councilmember Brown, just one question13 relative to recycling.14 Over the last five years, what15 has been the increase in plastic bag16 production year by year?17
It's -- it's -- I22 think over that period, it has been about23 the same; it's been steady.24
So where's25 20 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 the recycling effort, where's the2 recycling effects? If we're producing as3 many or more bags we do the year before4 over the past five years, how has5 recycling impacted plastic bag production6 if it's being -- are you including7 recycled material also in this?8
Is there10 some way you could find that information11 out.12
Sure, but again,13 I mean, there were 830 million pounds of14 this material recycled in 2010. It is15 recycled.16
As I said, it's19 probably about -- it's been steady at20 about 80 billion.21
Yes.25 21 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
But, again,4 another point that needs to be made5 that's often overlooked when you're6 talking about recycling of these bags:7 92 percent of these bags are reused in8 the household. You have to have that9 material available to recycle it.10 If most people are reusing it11 for trashcan liners, pet pickup, and12 other uses, it's not available to13 recycle. Those bags that are not being14 reused, those are the bags we're15 encouraging people to recycle at their16 stores because that is the best way to17 get a clean stream of this material.18
So if it's19 a trashcan liner, it's likely going in a20 landfill.21
Well, I mean,25 22 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that's fine, but my point is, the bag has2 a second life after shopping; it is being3 used and avoids having to purchase4 another bag for that purpose.5
Good8 morning.9 You stated in your opening10 commentary that Progressive Bag11 Affiliates is committed to the intent of12 this bill, and then you proceeded to cite13 various provisions of the bill and spoke14 to unintended cons -- unintentional15 consequences.16 So then, tell me, what are you17 committed to?18
As I said, the19 commitment is to reduce bag waste; that's20 the intent of the bill, to reduce litter,21 to reduce waste associated with bags.22 And as I testified before, we23 have been working with communities24 throughout this country on efforts to25 23 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 increase recycling and partnership with2 retailers and partnership with City3 government.4
Cite8 specific strategies that you're using9 across the country with retailers and10 others.11
Okay. What we're12 using is a reduce-reuse-recycle approach.13 Austin is a good example, where the14 retailers, the industry, the15 environmentalists, the government got16 together and came up with a plan. The17 plan is to reduce the amount of bags that18 are given out at stores through proper19 bagging practices so there's not excess20 and wasteful bagging.21
And those22 three constituencies again were23 government...24
Government,25 24 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 retailers, environmentalists. That was2 the stakeholders group.3
And then another5 component of that is the reuse component,6 which they did work to promote reusable7 bags as another option.8 And then the third component9 was to recycling -- through recycling10 education. The retailers worked to11 promote the recycling in their stores of12 plastic bags through public education13 efforts, and the recycling increased as a14 result of that.15 That's just one example. We16 can --17
Okay.18 Elaborate on the education piece, because19 that is a factor that I am deeply20 concerned about.21
In terms of what25 25 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that involves?2
That involves,5 you know, signage at the stores, bins at6 the stores that say, you know, these are7 the types of materials that are accepted8 for recycling here.9 That also involves their10 checkout people having things to say11 like, "You can recycle this bag. We have12 bins in the store to do that." Their13 checkers are saying often reminders that,14 again, "Don't forget to recycle your15 plastic bags."16 'Cause what we're finding out17 is that a lot of people don't realize18 that these bags are recycled. Once you19 educate them that, one, they are20 recyclable and, two, where to do it,21 people are more than willing to22 participate; at least that was what we23 found out in that example.24
Who25 26 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 assumes the cost for all of what you just2 spoke about? Who picked up the tab for3 that whole education component?4
It's primarily5 the retailers.6 The PBA does have signage and7 whatnot that they can provide and they8 can help them with to show them the9 proper materials that should be in those10 bins, so we did provide that signage, but11 they put it up and they displayed it and12 they encouraged their customers to13 recycle the bags.14
And what15 would prohibit you from executing those16 same strategies should this bill, in17 fact, become law?18
I mean, nothing.19 As I said, we need partners to do this,20 we need retailers who are willing to say:21 Yes, we will promote that in our stores;22 yes, we will use your signage; yes, we23 will encourage, right along with24 promotions of reusable bags, promotion of25 27 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 recycling.2
Is that3 not a leadership opportunity for the4 Progressive Bag Affliliates?5
Yes, it is. And6 that's something, again, that we are7 reaching out to retailers to do, but it's8 going to require their participation in9 that.10
You're11 doing that now currently in the county,12 in Philadelphia County?13
In the City, yes,14 we have reached out to some stores to do15 just that.16
That's why I19 wanted to know the stores who have20 stopped providing those kinds of21 recycling opportunities.22
ShopRite and, um,25 28 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 I'm sorry I don't have the list here; it2 was in the white paper, and I'm sure you3 all got a copy, but there's a list of the4 stores here that are promoting recycling5 of plastic bags, and those are the stores6 that we're working with.7
It's been going10 on over the past year.11 And we fully acknowledge that12 there's more that needs to be done with13 that. I mean, it's in its infancy, it's14 new.15
There's more that17 needs to be done and more that we want to18 do to help (indiscernible) --19
Welcome more22 stores, bring more stores into this23 effort. You know, encourage more of them24 to use the signage, to have the education25 29 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 as part of their promotion of reusable2 bags.3 So -- and, again, it requires4 the stores as partners in the effort. If5 they don't, you know, adopt that attitude6 or pick up on that policy, then you just7 have bins without no guidance as to what8 to do with them. It will affect the9 stream. In fact, people will put10 anything in the bins and contaminate a11 potential recycling stream.12 So we need willing partners to13 in that education effort.14
Thank you15 for your testimony.16 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.17
Thank you.18 Before Councilmember Jones,19 just anecdotally, I mean, I was in a20 retail drug store last week, and the21 clerk tried to put my box of Tic Tacs in22 a plastic bag.23 So, I mean, the public24 education has a long way to go, 'cause --25 30 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
-- I mean,3 I said, "I don't need the bag," and he's,4 like, you know, trying to put the --5
All right,12 I understand. Thank you.13 Councilmember Jones.14
Thank you,15 Mr. Chairman.16 I can't tell you how frustrated17 some of my colleagues here are with the18 lack of progress that has been made by19 way of the plastic bag industry, whether20 it's the retailers' fault, whether it's21 the manufacturers' fault, whoever's fault22 it is.23 The unintended consequences24 that there are Councilpeople up here that25 31 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 walk through districts that are looking2 at tumbleweeds rolling down the street3 and are becoming increasingly more4 frustrated as we start to try to reduce5 our burden of cleaning this city through6 a more sensible approach to dealing with7 the plastic bag situation.8 Having said that, because I9 have to hear these guys who are kicking10 me under the table about my position and11 some of the considerations that I have as12 a District Councilperson. Having said13 that, a couple of quick questions:14 If, in fact, this bill was15 passed with a timetable of something in16 the neighborhood of two to three years,17 would that be more acceptable, with a18 review annually as to the progress of the19 industry in recycling and things like20 that?21 I'm just trying to get some22 feedback as to, would that be less23 onerous to our ability to move towards24 degradability, biodegradable plastic, to25 32 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 move towards a sound recycling process?2 Would that be a little more palatable?3
For example,6 if, in fact, there was a 2 percent7 redeeming rate for plastic recycling as8 an incentive to recycle plastic, is that9 something that would be --10
So you're saying11 the retailers would provide a financial12 incentive --13
Whether it's14 the retailers or the manufactures, a15 2 percent stamp on return of plastic16 bags; is that something that would17 incentivize people to recycle?18
In terms of the19 industry, I mean, there are various20 incentives that we can put forward or we21 can consider for recycling.22 Right now, we're finding that23 public education and aggressive public24 education works in other areas to25 33 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 increase recycling.2 There are retailers providing3 incentives, rebates. If you bring your4 reusable bag back or if you bring your5 plastic bags back for recycling, they do6 -- they do provide certain incentives for7 their customers.8
And back to9 that frustration, and I don't want I10 don't mean to interrupt you, but I can go11 through major parts of my district where12 you won't see any recycling effort on13 plastic bags at all.14
So that16 frustration that they feel is that it's17 not moving quick enough, we are not18 making progress.19 And I'm asking you: If we were20 to, as a body, say that a 2 percent -- a21 2-cent, not 2 percent, a 2-cent return on22 bags --23
For like a bottle24 deposit --25 34 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
I mean, we're8 open to incentives. We'd have to -- you9 know, again, I'm not sure how that would10 work --11
-- because you13 have collection issues around -- I mean,14 just like with the bottle issue, you15 know, again, that's something that the16 retailers would have to --17
All right.18 That's my first question.19 My second question is: If, in20 fact, they ban it, if it were three21 years, with the idea towards annually22 evaluating where those recycling23 efforts -- what progress we've made,24 would that be something that was more25 35 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 obtainable or more palatable to folk to2 try to get their act together, if you3 would, by way of recycling?4
A ban but9 with a implementation date sometime in10 the near future if we did not make11 progress --12
To use21 that time for some of the strategies --22 (Indiscernible; parties talking23 over each other.)24
For efforts to25 36 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 increase recycling.2
I'm not saying11 that there couldn't be progress at that12 time. The pilot that Austin did, they13 achieved results in 18 months.14
But it would have17 to be something that would have to --18 because, again, they -- well, I didn't --19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of20 order, point of order.21
The sponsor22 has a point of order.23 Councilman DiCicco.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of25 37 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 order.2 They've had two years, which is3 24 months. The bill gives them another4 12. There's their 36.5
Point of6 information.7 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm not8 trying to be sarcastic, but this has been9 going on for two years, and we're still10 talking about the same things that we11 talked about two years ago.12
Point of13 information.14 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And not a15 thing has changed.16
Why do we18 have to reinvent the wheel here? We have19 a recycling program in the City of20 Philadelphia. We should start by --21 You know, I thought I did22 something wrong when I put a plastic bag23 in my recycling container. I took it24 back out and put it in the trash25 38 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 container.2 I think we need to educate --3 start with what we already have --4
-- and have6 the Streets Department communicate to the7 residents that it's appropriate to put a8 plastic bag in a recycling bucket.9
And that's10 perfectly reasonable and certainly11 something that we could get behind.12
Well --13 (Indiscernible; parties talking14 over each other.)15 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And in 3616 months, we'll have the same conversation.17
But then,18 again, if you didn't have them at all --19
Well --20 (Indiscernible; parties talking21 over each other.)22
-- you23 wouldn't have to worry about anything24 about recycling or composting; they25 39 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 wouldn't be in the City.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Right.3
It would be4 one less thing they have to deal with.5 Councilmember Miller?6
Seniority.9 I just wanted to get a sense of10 what alternatives we have. This is a --11 this has, as you said, unintended12 consequence.13
I had a18 opportunity to go to several grocery19 stores since we had our last hearing, and20 what I noticed was people putting food21 back on the shelves based on a recession.22
So as I24 looked at other things that are going on25 40 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 and other options and we talking about 252 cents and a 1 percent sales tax increase3 at the state level, consumers are making4 choices of whether or not to be good5 citizens, to recycle, or whether to take6 the hit in their pockets.7 So I'm looking at every option8 there is to achieve the goal of recycling9 without providing an onerous kind of10 burden financially on poor people in the11 City of Philadelphia. So that's where12 I'm at.13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.14
Appreciate it.15 COUNCILMAN KENNEY:16 Councilmember Miller.17
Okay,18 thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.19 Miss Jackson, I just want to20 get clarity on how many states or cities21 in the country are moving towards this22 type of legislation.23
In terms of24 recycling?25 41 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
There are5 countless jurisdictions, local6 jurisdictions, that are considering bans,7 but the vast majority have not decided to8 go that route.9 There are a handful cities in10 California that have actually banned11 plastic bags, and that occurred last12 year, but, as I said, it's a handful.13 This has been considered for14 the past couple of years throughout the15 country in many jurisdictions. And most16 of them have decided not to go the ban17 route.18
Well,19 maybe a ban with a fee. You know, you20 can use the bag but charge a fee.21
Okay.24 How many countries? Are there any other25 42 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 countries?2
There are a3 number of countries that have put in4 place policies outside of this country to5 either ban or impose a tax on bags.6
Okay. In7 the manufacturing industry, the industry8 that manufactures these bags, are any of9 them moving towards not using the bags10 that we're accustomed to seeing and11 moving more into a biodegradable bag?12
Among our13 manufacturers, they have looked at that14 issue. There have been some issues15 identified with that. And, you know, I16 can only speak for the PBA.17 Again, it's something they have18 considered, but it's not something19 they're embracing. You have to realize,20 when you have -- when you change the21 material like that and you recycle it,22 that will affect the ability of it to be23 a recyclable product.24 And one of our manufacturers, a25 43 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 major recycler of these bags, back into2 bags themselves and back into other3 products. So if, you know, if you have4 that particular component to it, it's5 going to affect the recyclability of that6 bag.7 It's something that is being8 looked at by our members that's not9 something that's used.10
Okay,11 because it seems to me that this country12 is moving more and more to being green,13 more and more to get people to recycle14 and to use recyclable goods. And I would15 think that the industry would be changing16 with how the country and how the people17 are changing.18
It -- I mean,19 we're -- we still see recycling as a20 viable option, so that's why industry is21 moving in that direction and doing things22 to enhance that. That's what we see as a23 more viable option as opposed to the24 biodegradability of a bag.25 44 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 And not to say to say that2 that's not an option to consider; just3 saying that we're finding that recycling4 is a better option.5
Okay,6 because I think more and more people are7 becoming more and more conscious of this.8 Sure, education, of course, is key.9 I've even noticed it in10 watching TV. I saw a commercial, and11 this company has been, of course, having12 commercials for years on TV, but now I13 notice that they've changed the bag.14 It's a commercial of people purchasing15 something from a store, and now it looks16 like they've changed the bag -- well,17 they have changed the bag that they18 normally showed in the commercial a few19 years ago.20 And so it seems to me that more21 and more people are becoming, you know,22 more and more aware and actually visually23 showing the changes on TV.24 And so, I would think, though,25 45 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 that, you know, the companies would be2 repositioning themselves so that they3 can, you know, survive if --4 And I know that everybody's not5 going to change at once, but I think if6 there's a big movement to change this,7 the -- and I'm glad that you did mention8 that the when the supermarkets and other9 stores talk about recycling the bags, and10 my question, I was sitting here thinking,11 Well, what happens when you put the bags12 in those bins, what happens then? What's13 the next step? Do they actually do14 anything with the bags?15 Sure, I'm familiar with those16 incentives where they ask you to bring17 the bag back in, and I think you get two18 cents off when you use a recycled bag for19 your groceries. But other than that, I20 was wondering what actually are the21 companies doing with the bags that are22 placed in the bins?23
I mean, the bags24 are -- there's a system put in place25 46 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 where the bags are picked up by a hauler2 and taken either to a storage facility3 where they are compacted, and then that4 is picked up by another company. Right5 now, the largest recycler of these bags6 is Trex; they make outdoor decking and7 construction materials, and they take8 that material back and they use it in the9 manufacturer of their product.10
And, you know, in12 terms of the innovations you're talking13 about on the bags, one of the innovations14 that the PBA has just announced and15 launched is to increase the recycled16 content in their bags. It's a brand-new17 initiative, and the goal is to increase18 it by 40 percent, 40 percent recycled19 content, by 2015.20
Okay.21 All right. Thank you.22 Thank you, Mr. Chair.23 COUNCILMAN KENNEY:24 Councilmember Rizzo.25 47 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Again, I2 want to repeat that I don't think that3 we've communicated well enough in-house4 to our constituents that the plastic bag5 is something that can be put into the6 recycling container that's collected by7 the City.8 And, again, the reuse of the9 bag, I think, is significant.10 The -- I think the convenience11 of having a plastic bag, especially for12 an impromptu stop at a convenience store13 or a drugstore to pick up a couple of14 items, you don't have a reusable bag with15 you. It's -- to me, it would not be16 something that I would be supportive of,17 eliminating the plastic bag.18 But I have a couple questions.19 What would be the unintended consequence?20 I recently shopped in, I think it's,21 Whole Foods, that when I checked out,22 they gave me a paper bag. I don't even23 think I saw a plastic bag in the store.24 What is the unintended25 48 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 consequence of switching to paper? And2 if that was a alternative, would it be3 recycled?4 And I know you don't represent5 the paper industry, but do you have6 any -- I'm sure that you're prepared to7 discuss what the unintended consequence8 would be to give me a paper bag.9 I -- you know, really, I don't10 care if it's paper, if it's plastic. All11 I know is, I don't want to walk down the12 street with a toot brush in one hand and13 a bottle of shampoo in the other; I want14 to something to put it in. And I'm not15 going to carry a reusable bag with me all16 the time in the event I want to stop at a17 store.18 So what would -- do you have19 any -- does your industry know what the20 unintended consequence would be to switch21 to paper bags? Would it raise the price22 that you pay at the store? I'm sure23 you're prepared to --24
Well, again, I go25 49 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 back to the San Francisco example, where2 they banned plastic bags, so the only bag3 that was available was paper bags, and4 one of the results of that, one of the5 consequences is, there was excess use of6 paper, there was more litter of paper7 bags than there was of plastic bags, you8 know, following the ban, and that9 resulted in excess packaging from the10 paper bag, because that plastic bag is a11 much more durable bag.12 So the consequences there13 showed there was more excess bagging and14 an increase in litter following the15 result of that ban on plastic only16 initiative.17
So what is18 the resistance? I mean, I could be19 supportive of a bag that degrades within20 a few years in a landfill versus one that21 might take three, five, six, eight years.22 What is the hesitancy to move23 to a plastic bag to avoid a ban, to avoid24 a charge, that would satisfy the mission25 50 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 of the ordinance of the bill to go to a2 product that would degrade quicker?3
Well, in terms of4 degrading in a landfill, the -- that's5 not the issue because most things that go6 in a landfill, they're designed for7 nothing to biodegrade. Nothing8 biodegrades in a landfill, in a properly9 designed landfill; they're not designed10 that way -- not paper, not plastic, not11 anything. That's just the way they're12 designed.13 The issue you're talking about14 with biodegradability has a concern with15 the environment, with it being left out16 in the environment as litter and how long17 it takes to degrade once it's out of that18 environment.19
And, as I said,21 that's something that the industry looks22 at that's considered, but it's not23 something that's embraced as a kind of24 solution to the issue.25 51 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
So then,2 based just on that point, what is the3 resistance in going to a bag that would4 degrade that is on a vacant lot?5 I mean, I've picked up plastic6 bags at the curb near my home. And, you7 know, they've deteriorated every quickly.8 I lifted it up, there was water, it9 broke, so it was starting to deteriorate10 right there in the street.11 So I don't understand what the12 resistance is; is it more cost?13
Again, it's an14 option that (indiscernible), that the15 issue that we're trying to get at is, it16 shouldn't be littered in the first place.17 We're trying to put in practice things18 that will discourage people from19 littering in the first place.20
Point of21 information. What exactly are you doing22 to discourage people from littering?23 Tell me what --24
Tell me2 what -- look, I don't want to continue to3 argue this thing because -- and I'm sorry4 to interrupt, but what have you done,5 what has this industry done to keep6 people or to educate people from7 littering?8 Because the reason we're here9 is because the stuff is all over the10 place: It's in the street, it's in the11 trees, it's in the river. There's an12 island in the Pacific twice the size of13 Texas. And that's why we're here.14 And so if you guys aren't going15 to incentivize people or educate people16 to recycle or not to litter, what is it17 you're doing? 'cause I don't see it. All18 I see is what I trip over the curb or19 what's hanging out of every tree in my20 neighborhood.21
We are doing22 things. We are working with Keep23 Philadelphia Beautiful. We are putting24 programs in place to discourage people25 53 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 from littering. We work with these types2 of groups all over the --3
Well --6 (Indiscernible; parties talking7 over each other.)8