It's been18 two years. Don't tell me it's started to19 be working --20
-- litter25 54 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 prevention programs. We have been2 working with them and the other groups3 here on recycling, and the recycling is4 occurring in places in the City.5
Well --8 (Indiscernible; parties talking9 over each other.)10
Why does15 the City of Philadelphia have to buy a16 piece of equipment to skim the river to17 get them out of there?18
'Cause,19 obviously, there's more that needs to be20 done.21
The --25 55 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Again, I4 think that an alternative and the5 educational piece. Maybe the retail6 outlets like the Wawas or the CVS's or7 the others honestly need to maybe have8 signage or a pamphlet that they put9 inside the bag; maybe some people will10 read it and it will have an effect on11 some, a statement that the bag can be put12 into the recycling bucket.13
I agree15 there needs to be more done, but I think16 the convenience of having a receptacle to17 carry your purchases home at the outlet18 is so important, whether it be paper,19 whether it be plastic.20 So I don't understand why Whole21 Foods can replace the plastic bag with a22 paper one; it didn't matter to me. All I23 know is, I had one in each hand and I was24 on my way.25 56 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 So, these degradable bags, are2 they as strong? I noticed that the3 quality of some of the bags, the handles4 break on them when you only -- when you5 just put a few items on them.6 What is the hesitancy to making7 a switch to a plastic that is more8 degradable, for lack of, you know, the9 proper terms here? I don't know what a10 whole lot about this issue, but what is11 the hesitancy in making the shift to a12 material that is more forgiving to the13 environment?14
Part of the issue15 will come down to the integrity of the16 bag. It's made, it's designed for its17 strength and light weight. So the more18 you add to the bag that will allow it to19 break down, that's going to affect the20 strength of that product.21
That's the24 problem --25 57 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
-- as strong2 as --3 (Indiscernible; parties talking4 over each other.)5
That's part of6 it, yes. When you add something to that7 product to make it break down, you're8 affecting the strength of that product.9 So I'm saying that that is10 something that the industry is looking11 at, that is something that the industry12 is working on, but it's not there as the13 solution.14
Well, they15 should get with it because, you know, if16 one city, Philadelphia, the next bans the17 product, you know, it's going to be very18 hurtful to the industry.19
Well, again, as I20 say, recycling is still an option that21 we're pursuing, because, in other cities,22 it's working.23
Thank you.24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.25 58 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Thank you2 very much.3 I would like to have the4 Administration to at least come up and5 explain -- talk a little bit about6 quickly the issue relative to plastic bag7 recycling and why it's not in the bin8 now.9 (Witness comes forward.)10
Good morning. My13 name is Suzanne B. Miller, and I work14 with the Mayor's Office of15 Sustainability.16 Currently, I think City Council17 knows, the Administration, the Streets18 Department introduced curbside recycling,19 weekly curbside recycling, in every20 neighborhood this past January.21 However, the only plastics that22 are currently able to be recycled in23 those recycling bins are those labeled24 "1" and "2."25 59 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 It's a little complicated, but2 there are sort of different types of3 plastic, if you will. And, currently,4 the City will only pick up those labeled5 "1" and "2."6 So plastic bags cannot be put7 into the curbside recycling bins.8
It just -- it has10 to do with the market for plastic11 materials. Even now, the market for 1's12 and 2's is a little weak. The market for13 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, and 7's is even14 weaker just given how plastic needs to be15 broken down and recycled into products.16 So plastic bags, it's my17 understanding that they're just even more18 difficult to recycle. And the City,19 therefore, it just doesn't pick them up.20
To the24 Administration: The witness indicated in25 60 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 the body of her testimony, Miss Jackson2 from Progressive Bag Affiliates, talked3 about Austin?4
And how6 eventually there had to be a stakeholders7 group including government, retailers,8 and environmentalists -- and I would9 consumers so that we actually get a10 consumer's perspective on this measure to11 assist in defining how they would roll12 out or how they did roll out the13 educational piece, which I think is vital14 anytime you're trying to change anybody's15 behavior.16 So could you simply speak to,17 where do you see value in that? When18 we're talking about growing a sustainable19 city, it's not going to happen at the20 snap of a finger; it really requires21 changing thinking, which ultimately22 changes behavior.23
And it25 61 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 takes a minute.2 So with that, could you just3 speak to why that might be of value?4
Well, I think5 anytime you have an educational program6 that encourages recycling and reuse of7 materials, that's value.8 I think, though -- I mean, with9 all due respect, I think that there needs10 to be a change, however, in the11 industry's perspective as well.12
And speaking from15 a personal issue here, you know, there's16 a local supermarket in my neighborhood17 that when you ask for paper, you can't18 get it.19 Now, to me, that's a problem20 when -- you know, here I am a consumer21 who wants to do the right thing and I've22 forgotten my reusable bag that day and I23 try to ask the supermarket to give me a24 paper bag, and it's unavailable. So --25 62 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
It takes a2 long --3 (Indiscernible; parties talking4 over each other.)5
I also think that,6 you know, in some instances, legislation7 of this nature can also get you educated8 a lot more quickly.9
Oh,10 there's no doubt that it certainly serves11 as an incentive in another way.12
Do you think18 you could go back to whoever handles our19 recycling and indicate that we want to20 include the plastic bags into our21 recycling?22 The point being is, most people23 that recycle use the plastic bag to load24 it up with plastic bottles, take it to25 63 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 the -- carry it with four or five bottles2 in it, and they throw it in the recycling3 bin. The plastic bag's in there, so what4 do they do; take it, out ignore it?5 Why don't we see if we can't6 get this included into our collection7 process. I don't think that this is a8 big deal to get that done.9
Well, I -- I will10 try to answer that question as best I11 can, but I think the Streets Department12 can probably address it more accurately.13 My understanding, as I said14 earlier, is that it's sort of the market15 for those materials. So currently -- I16 mean, let me back up a little bit.17 The City used to be paid for18 its recycling. Currently, the City pays19 to have that recycling collected under a20 contract that's renegotiated every six21 months. We're still paying less for22 recycled materials to haul those away23 than we are for regular municipal trash,24 so we're still saving money the more that25 64 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 people recycle.2 Yet, again, it's really the3 market for the 1's and 2's that is the4 strongest. It would cost the City money5 to collect the 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, and6 7's in those bags and get rid of them.7
So it's -- let me9 just finish.10 It's less expensive now for the11 City if people just put them in the12 trash.13
So, when14 Mr. So-and-So walks to the recycling15 container with four plastic bottles all16 in the plastic bag and he puts the17 plastic bag and the milk bottle, the soda18 bottle into the container, you're telling19 me somebody goes and takes all of the20 plastic bags out?21
Well, that's -- I25 65 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 mean, again, it's education of the2 consumer that they -- the Streets3 Department clearly states that only 1's4 and 2's can go into --5
But -- but9 we have to get with it and do what -- go10 back to what people do. And I think many11 people listening to this -- what I'm12 saying here is, you know, I do that.13
We can't18 solve a problem if the City isn't a part19 of the solution.20
I understand that.21 The City is -- the Administration is22 committed to, once the market has23 rebounded, to collecting 3's, 4's, 5's,24 6's, and 7's. But, again, plastic bags25 66 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 is a whole different type of thing.2
About6 putting plastic bags in there, because I7 can't see that that would really create a8 issue for the people that collect our9 recycling.10
I would like12 to know when we asked that question. If13 you could get back to the Chair with that14 information, I'd appreciate it.15
Sure. I could16 speak to the Streets Department, but I do17 understand that it's a different issue of18 recycling plastic bags versus the 1's and19 2's that are collected.20
And we24 collect 1 and 2?25 67 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Well, let's3 change -- let's go to 2 and then we can4 recycle it.5
Well, as I stated6 earlier, the best way -- often curbside7 is not the best way to get this material8 because it's not clean material. And --9 no, it's not. People will not -- they10 will put things in the bag, the bag will11 be dirty, then they'll put it in the12 recycling bin.13
That's a part of16 the difficulty, is to get clean bags17 through that process. They're best18 collected through the at-store collection19 process. That's why we promote that as a20 good, viable option.21
I think22 dirty bags go in the normal trash. Most23 people that put the coffee grinds in just24 throw it into their trash.25 68 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Right, but I'm2 just saying for that curbside system,3 people tend to put contaminated bags in4 that system.5
Thank you8 very much.9 Any other questions for this10 witness?11
Yeah, just12 I need one final follow-up, Mr. Chairman.13 Speaking again to the value of14 the education component, is there15 anything else we need to know, or should16 know, that involves the stakeholders you17 mentioned -- government, retailers, and18 environmentalists that participated in19 crafting the rollout of this measure in20 Austin?21
I mean, again,22 the key to that was that it was a23 partnership. Everybody in that effort24 was committed to that effort and to25 69 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 making it work, and that's why it worked.2 They had the same goal, they wanted to3 reduce the waste and the litter4 associated with the bags. They took that5 comprehensive approach.6 And everybody played a role in7 that. You know, the retailers played a8 roll and stepped up to the education that9 was needed to, you know, encourage people10 to recycle those bags. And industry11 stepped up in providing the signage and12 the tools and what was needed to help13 with that education effort.14 The City has to promote, you15 know, the recycling of bags --16
The City17 actually has already been in that18 business for many, many years.19
Yeah, but I'm20 saying that it should do more through21 public service announcements and the like22 just to further enhance the education23 around that effort.24 They stepped up, they made it a25 70 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 much more aggressive effort, and it2 worked.3
Thank you4 for your testimony.5 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.6
Thank you,9 Mr. Chairman.10 One of the reasons why we have11 these hearings is to hash out ideas,12 exchange views, and one of the things I13 was really looking to hear was a14 proactive "how we're going to get it done15 better in the future." The frustration16 that my colleagues have is that we've17 done all of this before and talked about18 this before, and we're here again, with19 very little, very little progress and20 movement.21 And what I hoped to have heard22 today from the industry and from others23 is how we kind of get to a place where we24 get to a win/win scenario, where the City25 71 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 isn't -- the environment isn't suffering2 from this.3 And I really hear -- I hear4 buzz words like "education" and5 "recycling," but no action steps,6 tangible action steps, in my opinion,7 towards that. And that -- that concerns8 me deeply.9
Well, again, we10 need everyone involved in this11 partnership and this effort. And until12 we get that, it's kind of hard to move13 forward with that.14
Thank you17 very much.18 Any other questions for this19 witness?20 (No further questions.)21
Seeing22 none -- I just want to make sure we23 understand. We have a 10 o'clock Finance24 Committee hearing, which is now overdue,25 72 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 as we speak, so I would ask any witnesses2 to please do not give us testimony that3 was given in the last hearings but to4 give us new testimony, 'cause I also5 understand that there may be an agreement6 for an amendment to the legislation,7 which is pending.8 So Randy St. John and Rocco9 D'Antonio, please.10 (Witnesses come forward.)11
Please12 identify yourself for the record and13 proceed.14
And I'm the19 Business Development Manager for Penn20 Jersey Paper, in Philadelphia.21
Randy St. John,22 from the Pennsylvania Food Merchants23 Association; we represent the grocery24 stores and the convenience stores.25 73 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
I passed on my4 written testimony to you.5 Perhaps I could start by6 reacting to Councilmember Jones. We7 would be very, very, very happy to meet8 formally, informally, discuss all of the9 ideas that have been brought forward10 today. We're totally open to that.11 We would be happy to join you12 or any of the other members of the13 Council and discuss any of the14 suggestions that you or Mr. Rizzo have15 raised today. So please know that we're16 willing to do that at any moment.17 We want to do what's best for18 the City, the same way that you do. Our19 members live here, the same way that you20 do. And today's question concerns the21 best way to bring things home from the22 store, Mr. Rizzo your question.23 When we consider all of the24 alternatives, we still think that plastic25 74 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 is the best way to do it. It's2 recyclable, each new bag is clean, it's3 sanitary, plastic bags are cheaper and4 more environmentally-friendly to produce5 and transport than paper.6 Let's consider what the7 alternatives are:8 Compostable bags. I think9 we've covered that. We think that10 there's a problem because there's not a11 facility in Philadelphia to compost them.12 If there were a facility here, we'd have13 to address the question of how we're14 going to get them from consumers to a15 composting facility, and I think that's a16 problem haven't really solved yet.17 We think that reusable bags are18 a good idea as long as they're kept clean19 and sanitary, but I worry that reusable20 bags aren't regularly cleaned, and they21 have the possibility of contaminating22 food that's brought home in them.23 When you go to a grocery store,24 the bagger puts the raw meat in one25 75 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 plastic bag and your fruits and2 vegetables in another plastic bag for a3 reason: Unpackaged foods like fruit can4 easily be contaminated by being5 co-mingled with potentially hazardous6 foods like raw meat. When you put all of7 these things together in a reusable bag,8 there's a possibility of9 cross-contamination.10 We think that paper is harder11 on the environment to produce and12 transport than plastic, and the plastic13 industry people have already addressed14 that. Paper bags also leak, they tear15 easily when wet, something that plastic16 doesn't do.17 But what's good about18 plastic -- that it doesn't fall apart,19 that it doesn't leak when it's wet -- is20 also what's bad about plastic. When it's21 littered, it persists, it blows around,22 it becomes an eyesore.23 So what are we going to do?24 Are we going to ban plastic because its25 76 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 good qualities are also its bad qualities2 when its littered? Or should we build3 upon plastic recycling programs that are4 already in place, develop stronger5 programs to encourage more recycling and6 develop better and more comprehensive7 programs to prevent littering?8 We think that when all of the9 alternatives are considered, we should10 stick with the plastic.11 If we think that we're going to12 do social engineering on Philadelphians13 to change their behavior by the use of14 penalties and incentives, then let's use15 those techniques to encourage recycling16 and prevent littering.17 We think it's the most18 effective to get people to get their19 products home without contamination and20 while causing the least amount of21 environmental harm. So if we can22 strengthen current plastic bag recycling23 programs, add new programs to discourage24 littering, we think that we have a25 77 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 realistic strategy to make Philadelphia a2 better place for all of us to live.3
Thank you4 very much for your testimony.5 Please identify yourself for6 the record.7
Rocco8 D'Antonio, Business Development Manager9 for Penn Jersey Paper in Philadelphia.10 We're a supplier of plastic bags and11 paper bags and reusable bags and also12 compostable trashcan liners.13 I just want to comment on some14 of the things I heard this morning and15 some of the comments that have come up.16 One of them was, what if we went to17 paper? Well, there's a lot of what-if's18 of going to paper. One of 'em, quite19 frankly, is, we make a lot more money.20 Paper bags are excessively more expensive21 than plastic. We work off margin, we22 take more money to the bank as a company,23 and that's going to be at the expense of24 the supermarket industry and also the25 78 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 residents of Philadelphia.2 And having said that, we're3 still opposed to this type of4 legislation.5 But some of the other what-if's6 are, we would have to increase our7 warehouse space of plastic bags tenfold8 to accommodate paper bags. Paper bags9 take up ten times the amount of space, so10 we would have a tenfold increase in our11 warehouse space for paper bags,12 subsequently ten times more trucking to13 the stores, and subsequently ten times14 more space in any given store to store15 paper bags. And when you look at some of16 these smaller convenience stores, trying17 to find ten times the amount of space is18 almost impossible.19 So going to paper bags doesn't20 make a whole lot of sense when you look21 at all of the different pieces of the22 puzzle that you need to evaluate to see23 if it make sense to the City of24 Philadelphia.25 79 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 Also, I heard time and time2 again that people are not recycling3 plastic bags and it stopped, or stores4 have stopped. And I got to tell you that5 is absolutely incorrect.6 I'm the one that set up our7 plastic bag recycling program with8 independent supermarkets in Philadelphia9 and South Jersey. We did it about two,10 two-and-a-half years ago, and we had11 nothing but increase in plastic bag12 recycling per store on a month-to-month13 basis.14 Every month, our volume is15 increasing. When we started this, we16 were picking up plastic bags and also a17 large volume of plastic stretch film from18 the supermarkets.19 In the beginning, we were20 probably picking up about 75 percent21 stretch film and 25 percent plastic bags.22 Now, I can tell you, we're more like 6523 to 70 percent plastic bags, the balance24 being stretch film. Our volume has grown25 80 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 every single month per store -- not just2 adding new stores, but the volume per3 store has increased.4 And I can put my finger on that5 number any given store 'cause we collect6 it, we process it, we weigh it, and we7 ship the product off for reprocessing.8 One of the questions was, where9 do they plastic bags go? Well, we10 partnered with Goodwill Industries of11 Philadelphia and Southern New Jersey to12 help us in the collection. We've13 invested in bailers, vehicles. We're14 employing disabled citizens in our15 communities to help in the recycling16 efforts.17 We're collecting these bags18 every day of the week in the City of19 Philadelphia and bringing them back to20 Good Will's facility, where we process21 them, we clean out contaminates, we bail22 'em up and we ship 'em out in23 40,000-pound loads to go out and make24 plastic lumber. And every month, my25 81 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 volume has increased.2 So I don't know where these3 comments of "we see this going away" come4 from.5
Well, I10 take my plastic bags to my supermarket at11 10th and Reed, and I can't recycle 'em12 there, so that's one on your list you13 need to add.14
Well, I don't15 know how you (indiscernible) that's one16 of the stores I'm dealing with, but I've17 had two locations in the past two years18 that we've had issues with. One was --19 it wasn't even a supermarket; it was a20 bad place for us to put our bins, we had21 nothing but contamination, and we have22 stopped picking up there.23 I had one supermarket that we24 didn't get a whole lot of buy-in. That25 82 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 has since changed, they're back on our2 program.3 So cooperation from my4 customers in the City of Philadelphia has5 been strong and growing and continues to6 grow.7 And, again, I base that on8 facts and figures and weights and9 measures from picking up our plastic.10
I also want to13 comment on the concept of degradable bags14 and compostable bags.15 You know, when I hear the words16 "recyclable" and "compostable" in the17 same sentence regarding plastic bags, it18 doesn't make a lot of sense to me.19 Recyclable bags, obviously,20 cannot be composted, and compostable bags21 can't be recycled. And the fact that we22 would talk about having compostable bags23 in the City of Philadelphia doesn't make24 a lot of sense because we have nowhere to25 83 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 even take these compostable bags.2 They're about ten times more3 expensive than plastic bags. They need4 to be made three times heavier than5 plastic bags to have the same strength.6 But ultimately, when the7 consumer gets home with that compostable8 bag, there's absolutely nowhere to bring9 it for processing. There's no commercial10 composting facilities nearby, and compost11 facilities do not accept the compostable12 grocery bags because there's too highly a13 chance of them being mixed with regular14 plastic bags. So all of that extra cost15 and extra material ends up going into a16 landfill.17 So it makes absolutely no sense18 to even suggest using compostable bags19 when you have no way to even process or20 compost or do anything.21 And by eliminating these22 plastic bags altogether, you're going to23 eliminate a successful recycling program24 that we've already implemented. You25 84 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 eliminate the need -- the opportunity to2 recycle your grocery bags, your stretch3 film, your dry-cleaning bags, your4 newspaper bags. All that goes away when5 you get rid of plastic bags.6 So I don't see where trying to7 do something for the environment by8 eliminating recycling and going to a9 product that can't be composted, can't be10 recycled, is increasingly more expensive,11 and hasn't been proven longterm anywhere12 in the United States makes a lot of sense13 for the City of Philadelphia.14 I also heard comments about,15 you know, how do we do this better? where16 do we go from here?17 What we found is that education18 and training, working with all the19 stakeholders -- City government,20 manufacturers, food industry,21 nonprofits -- to educate everyone on the22 benefits of using less and recycling more23 has been by far the most effective way.24 I mean, we're a small company.25 85 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 We deal in a very small part of the world2 in Philadelphia, but we've been able to3 educate our customers, which are the4 supermarkets, and help them educate their5 customers on how to use less plastic bags6 and also less paper bags and less7 packaging.8 And we have seen a trend of9 selling less plastic bags to our10 customers, selling more reusable bags,11 and seeing more reusable bags reused in12 the store. And, again, we base that on13 hard data, not just eyeballing what I see14 at the supermarket checkout.15 So we see progress and we feel16 that cooperation with all of the17 stakeholders on a comprehensive education18 plan is more effective than thinking that19 in passing a law, you're going to change20 everyone's consumer behavior.21 Thank you.22 COUNCILMAN KENNEY:23 Councilmember Brown.24
Thank you25 86 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 very, very much.2 Define "educate," because that3 means different things to different4 people. Discuss some mechanics of what5 you do.6
Well, we do7 several things.8 One is education for a9 supermarket owner-operator. We want to10 really understand the bags he's using,11 how he's using them, how they're packing12 'em, how many items per bag. We want to13 quantify all of that data.14 And what that tells us are two15 things: A, do we have the right size bag16 in the store, can we use a smaller bag17 and use less plastic or a smaller paper18 bag. And, number two, it gives us a19 benchmark to see if our training works.20 So we start with that data, and21 then we train the cashiers on how to22 effectively bag.23 But that's only a fraction of24 what we need to do. The real training25 87 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 and education is with the consumer 'cause2 what we found, no matter how much we3 train a cashier, it's the customer that4 ultimately trains the cashier. I want my5 meat in a separate bag. I'm 75 years old6 and I can only carry five pounds and7 can't put too much in my bag.8 So it's an educational campaign9 also for the consumer about the benefits10 of reusing less and recycling more. And11 we found that to be very, very effective.12
And so,17 define "progress." You said there's been18 progress. How have you been able to19 measure progress?20
Well, we're21 fortunate enough that, A, we sell the22 bags to the stores, so we have data23 showing how much we're selling.24 Two, we work with the stores to25 88 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 look at their scanner data to see how2 many reusable bags were reused or sold3 and how many bags were returned, the4 plastic bags reused. So we have that5 data.6 Three, I physically pick up7 those plastic bags every single day in8 supermarkets throughout the region, and9 we weigh those bags.10 So I have sound data that I can11 measure: A, I'm selling less plastic12 bags and less paper bags to the same13 account that I did before. Two, they're14 buying more reusable bags from me.15 Three, more reusable bags are being16 reused in the store. And, four, my17 volume per store on plastic film and18 plastic bags recovered has increased on19 an ongoing basis for the past two years.20 So I have data that supports my21 claims that we've made progress.22 Now, we still have a lot more23 to do, we still want to do better24 merchandising and marketing on our25 89 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 reusable bags, we still want to get more2 information out there on what we're doing3 with the recycling, where our plastic4 bags go.5 And we continue to do that and6 we continue to be successful. And I'm7 sure as we go forward, we're going to be8 more successful.9 You can't change consumer10 behavior overnight. I mean, we've been11 doing what we've been doing for 20, 30,12 40 years. And passing a law isn't going13 to change everybody's mindset. It does14 take a little longer to educate, and it15 is a little more frustrating, but we see16 tangible evidence that the results of our17 hard work have been paying off.18
Well,19 where do agree is that it does take a20 while to change behavior, as you've21 stipulated. And you say your program is22 two years old --23
-- and25 90 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 you're beginning to see progress because2 you've put in place some measures to make3 it clear that we are going to change4 behavior here.5
Well, I didn't6 say that we're beginning to see progress;7 I said we've had significant progress8 almost from the very beginning, and we9 continue to see progress.10 This isn't just starting to11 happen for us now. Our volume of plastic12 bag recycling has increased since the day13 we started, it's been increasing since14 the very beginning. This is not just15 happening today.16
You17 support the value then, of having an18 educational component.19
Thank you23 very much.24 Yes?25 91 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
Mr. Kenney and2 Mr. DiCicco, we understand how serious3 you are about this and we understand how4 frustrating this is for you. I know that5 you want to see more progress than has6 been made.7 Please understand that we're8 willing to come in and see you at anytime9 to bounce any ideas off that you have for10 strategies that are going to make things11 better.12 We don't want the City to be a13 mess either. So we may disagree about14 the right way to get to the goal. We15 share the same goal. And, again, we're16 willing to come in at anytime to see you17 to discuss any ideas you want to talk18 about.19
Thank you20 very much. Thank you.21 Councilman Rizzo.22
Does anyone23 anywhere place a message on the bag?24 Like if, you know, you go to the25 92 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 convenience store, the name of the2 company is on the backside of the bag.3 Could there be a message, you4 know, like "Keep America Beautiful.5 Recycle"? Is there anybody that does6 that, and is that something that would7 add significant cost to the bag, by8 adding some print to it?9
We actually10 print that on most of our customers'11 plastic bags. I think we should probably12 just blanket statement and put it on13 every bag.14 But actually, you know, it's15 quite a few, surprisingly.16
We have a19 limited space of print area, but we still20 use as much of that bag as we can.21 But, yes, people are doing it,22 and we probably should be able to get23 more people to get involved and do it24 more.25 93 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741
You know, as4 big as the Wawa sign, you know, on the5 other side.6 Thank you.7
Thank you8 very much. Any other questions?9 (No further questions.)10
Thank you.11 George Freiji, please.12 Is Chalmers Company here?13 (No response.)14
Is there15 anybody from Chalmers Company here?16 (No response.)17
Is Myrtle18 McDaniels here? Would you please come19 up, ma'am?20 (Witnesses come forward.)21
Good morning. My24 name is George Freiji. I work for Hilex25 94 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 Poly. I'm here this morning representing2 the company and our Pennsylvania plant.3 Just very quickly about Hilex,4 and then I want to spend my time really5 addressing some of the questions that all6 of you brought up this morning.7 At Hilex, we have nine8 manufacturing facilities in the United9 States. We support about 5,000 families,10 about 600 family members in Pennsylvania,11 in the Milesburg area, Central County.12 In the last few years, we13 invested $20 million in a recycling14 facility, and it's one of its kind in the15 world; it's specifically designed for16 plastic bags.17 We teach, we preach, and we18 practice the principles of reduce, reuse19 and recycle. And I will address those20 with you here in a few minutes, how we do21 this.22 We understand, again, the23 intent of this bill, but we think it will24 have negative consequences. And that was25 95 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 one of your questions, Mr. Rizzo, what2 are the negative consequences? And I3 will talk to that in a few minutes.4 Let's start with that, some of5 the negative consequences. What happens6 if you ban plastic bags? What do you go7 to? What's the alternative?8 Compostable bags are flat-out9 bad, just bad. The reason for that is,10 you use twice the amount of plastic at11 least, minimal, in a compostable bag than12 you use in a regular bag to maintain the13 strength.14 And the most important thing15 is, they are not recyclable. Not only16 are they not recyclable, but you can't17 put them with the recycling stream that18 exists currently, 'cause then you can't19 recycle anything.20 So if I get a compostable bag21 at home, then what do I do with it? You22 cannot use it in your composting in your23 back yard. What do I do with it? What24 happens to it?25 96 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 Exactly. So it has to go to2 specific sites, approved sites, in the3 United States for it to be degraded.4 Number two. Why waste the5 resources that you have? You use this6 plastic -- we said you going to use twice7 as much as plastic to make it disappear.8 While in regular plastic bags, we can9 recapture those resources and reuse 'em10 again through recycling.11 Reusable bags, again, are made12 out of plastic, most of them. Most of13 them are made outside the United States,14 and most of them are made in countries15 who care less in most cases or have a lot16 less stringent environmental laws than we17 do. In essence, we would be shipping18 jobs overseas if we go to reusable bags.19 And there are some studies that20 were published actually early this month21 that discuss some of the health issues22 with the reusable bags.23 I think, Ms. Jones [sic], you24 asked what happens with the bags when25 97 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 they end up in the recycling bins. We2 collect those bags --3
Oh, I'm sorry.6 We collect those bags and then7 we take them to our recycling facility,8 and we recycle 'em and we put 'em back in9 plastic bags.10 Mr. Kenney, you asked if we11 have reduced the amount of plastic bags.12 I can talk about our company. We have13 active programs that teach reduce, reuse,14 and recycle. And how do we do it? We15 train people in stores -- packers,16 cashiers, change in general -- to use17 more items per bag.18 Let me give you an example. An19 average of four items per bag typically20 you see across the country. We teach 'em21 to put six items per bag. If you put22 (indiscernible) more item per bag, you23 just reduced 25 percent of plastic bag24 use. We do this all the time.25 98 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 If an item has a handle, don't2 pack it. If you just buy a piece of gum3 don't pack it. You know, those kind of4 things.5 Back to our recycling facility.6 It's maxed out now. You hear people --7 misinformation about bags are not8 recyclable. We've maxed out our9 recycling facilities and we are adding10 more to be able to consume these -- the11 bags that we get back.12 A timetable. Mr. Brown [sic],13 you asked abut a timetable and about14 taxing maybe perhaps 2 cents a bag. Any15 tax on a bag, when it costs less than a16 penny, when you tax it 2 cents, you're17 taxing, you know, 200 percent more. You18 pretty much banning it, you're pretty19 much banning it. Anything you tax at 2,20 3, 400 percent -- you know, initially it21 was 25 cents -- well, you're basically22 saying you just don't want it.23 We invite you, I invite you, to24 come to our Milesburg facility. It's 20025 99 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 miles from here. Look at the folks,2 shake their hands, look 'em in the eye;3 those are the people who will lose their4 jobs eventually, will end up in China or5 India or Vietnam.6 And look at our facilities.7 Look at the cleanliness of the8 facilities. Look at our environment9 around us in Center County. We're the10 second-largest employer in Center County.11 I don't understand, when our12 recycling programs are working very well,13 we're just launching into more and more14 progress in that area. We come in and15 just kill it.16 I worked with the Secretary of17 Labor, Sandy (indiscernible) for one year18 on a plastic committee, trying to19 increase, promote the plastic industry in20 Pennsylvania. A bill like this will kill21 everything we worked on. Pennsylvania,22 Ohio, Indiana is one of the largest23 manufacturers of plastic in the United24 States.25 100 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 So our concern is, absolutely,2 we invite you. We would love to sit with3 you and discuss options rather -- I mean,4 this is not a format really where you can5 sit down and do problem-solving if you6 want to discuss ideas and things of that7 nature.8
Thank you9 very much for your testimony.10 Please identify yourself for11 the record.12 MS. McDANIELS: My name is13 Myrtle McDaniels, and I'm representing --14 I'm a senior, a senior citizen.15
Yes, ma'am.16 MS. McDANIELS: And to17 Mr. Kenney and the Council committee,18 good morning.19
Good22 morning.23 MS. McDANIELS: Perhaps at an24 alternation [sic] to the tax idea, the25 101 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 second bill consisted of we ban plastic2 bags altogether. Instead of allowing3 stores to provide stores a cheaper and4 more convenient plastic bags, this bill5 will require that stores use only paper6 bags, bags that can be composed [sic] or7 reused bags.8 I am opposed to this bill, to9 paper bags. And the other bags10 mentioned -- composed and reusable11 bags -- are almost as expensive as12 plastic bags. This will increase our13 cost to pass to the consumer by the store14 owners, another cost to the consumer.15 Paper bags are more neatly in16 convention [sic] for the carrying of a17 person. They don't always have handles18 that we can carry from -- another cost19 increase to the consumer. Paper bags are20 not nearly as convenient for me to carry21 by my purchasing. They don't always22 leave -- have handles as many of the23 plastic bags do. They are24 (indiscernible) and bulky.25 102 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 I'm not sure why these bills2 have been introduced, but maybe as to3 contain littering. I do think that4 littering is a problem, but I think the5 that it's different ways to tackle this6 problem.7 Also, on my way here, I took a8 look at the litter on the streets, and I9 saw more paper and cigarettes on the10 streets and sidewalks than I saw plastic11 bags.12 I think that litter is an issue13 but to be tackled through education.14 Perhaps have education about recycling15 other kinds of trash, and they can be16 educated about recycling and picking up17 trash bags.18 I reuse my trash bags. I19 either take them back to the store or I20 use them at home.21 And I urge you to work with22 your (indiscernible) that over plastic23 bags when they are more important issues24 in the City of Philadelphia that we can25 103 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 be tackling with.2
Thank you3 very much for your testimony.4 Any questions for these5 witnesses?6 (No questions or comments.)7
Thank you8 much.9 Anyone else to testify on this10 bill.11 (No response.)12
Seeing13 none, that will conclude our public14 hearing on this bill, and we will now15 conduct our public hearing.16 The Chair recognizes17 Councilmember DiCicco to offer an18 amendment.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,20 Mr. Chairman.21 I move for the approval of the22 amendment to Bill No. 090074. It's been23 distributed to members of the committee.24
Does anyone25 104 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 have any questions on the amendment?2 (No questions.)3
Thank you4 very much. It's been moved. Is there a5 second?6 (Motion duly seconded.)7
It's been8 moved and seconded.9 All in favor, aye?10 Any opposed?11 Bill No. 090074 will be amended12 accordingly.13 The Chair recognizes14 Councilmember Brown for a motion on the15 amended Bill 090074.16 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN:17 Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 09007418 be moved out of committee, as amended,19 with a favorable recommendation, and I20 further move that the rules of Council be21 suspended so as to permit first reading22 at our next session.23 (Motion duly seconded.)24
All in25 105 6/10/09 - ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE - BILLS 0900741 favor?2 Are there any opposed?3 (None opposed.)4
Bill No.5 090074, as amended, will be reported out6 of this committee favorably, and a7 request will be made for a rules8 suspension to allow for first reading at9 our next Council session.10 Thank you for your patience.11 The Finance Committee should be12 getting started shortly.13 Thank you.14 (Proceedings end at 10:34 a.m.)15 * * *16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 C E R T I F I C A T E2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the4 proceedings of the City of Philadelphia5 Council Committee on the Environment are6 contained fully and accurately in the7 stenographic notes taken by me on Wednesday,8 June 10, 2009, and that this is a true and9 correct statement of same.10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________15 JOSEPHINE CARDILLO16 Registered Professional Reporter 17 18 19 20 (The foregoing certification of21 this transcript does not apply to any22 reproduction of the same by any means, unless23 under the direct control and/or supervision of24 the certifying reporter.)25