You talk20 about the number of children, the21 percentage of lead-poisoned children, has22 decreased from about 80 percent in '89 --23 and I would like to thank the City24 Council chair here -- to 2.83 in 2009.25 69 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Have you tracked where most of2 these -- now, with the 2 percent.3
-- have5 you tracked the areas of the City where6 you are getting the increase --7
Yes. We've done a15 lot of mapping. And what I -- you may16 have heard the phrase "lead J," and it's17 changed a bit, but it actually -- we do a18 lot of mapping in the Department of19 Health of a lot of health indicators and20 poverty and other issues 'cause, as you21 know, health is related so much to22 socioeconomic factors, and so is lead23 poisoning, actually, 'cause of the24 condition of the homes. And it's pretty25 70 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 much the same parts of the City where we2 have a lot of low-income residents.3 We can certainly share more4 information, but we do have a lot of5 information.6 We also track what children get7 lead tests, get tested for lead. And one8 of our goals is to increase that number,9 but the literature shows children on10 Medicaid are really the target population11 of kids who are at risk of lead12 poisoning.13
Right. And14 unfortunately, it's a belt that runs15 through North Philadelphia and West and16 Southwest Philadelphia.17 And if you look back in the18 literature, I have a map of the City from19 the 1960s from the program, and it shows20 the same area of concern. Unfortunately,21 the lead does follow the poverty.22
Okay.23 Thank you.24 Councilwoman Brown.25 71 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
The2 mapping would be exceedingly helpful to3 us as we deliberate on this so that we4 are fair in how we approach it, you know,5 just going down the road. That becomes6 additional information that's helpful on7 this end of the table.8 That concludes my questioning9 at this time.10 Will you be here to listen to11 other testimony?12
Any other15 questions?16 (No further questions.)17 Thank you very much for your18 testimony.19 The next panel will consist of20 Darryl Zaslow, Victor Pinckney, Alan21 Lindy, and Christine Young Gertz.22 (Witnesses come forward.)23
11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 committee. 4 Sitting with me is Victor5 Pinckney. Mr. 13 HAPCO has been at the forefront14 of dealing with the lead issues for15 decades. I happen to have graduated from16 law school and become legal counsel to17 HAPCO in 1978, the very year that we18 finally eradicated the lead from the19 paint. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 experience in the issue. 5 This difficult issue has been6 addressed, obviously, at the federal7 level, the state level, and the local8 level for decades. 18 I'd like to remind all of us19 that those of us sitting here at the20 table -- the property owners, the21 landlords -- we did not create the lead22 paint problem. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 Now, I don't want to make it12 sound as if we are glib in any way,13 heaven forbid, about the danger to14 children; we would never do so. Number15 one, from a moral standpoint, it is16 unacceptable. And, frankly, as an17 attorney, I know that it is also not18 acceptable from a liability standard19 because20 We are like animals being21 hunted by my brothers and sisters at the22 bar, to be sued for lead-poisoning23 problem. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 4 The proposed bill also requires5 that the soils be made lead-safe. 11 Who did that? Well, they're12 not here today, either. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 19 The question, of course, is:20 Where would the money come from? 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 park in the City, and we could declare2 Philadelphia a lead-free zone. 4 The problem is, the cost5 expenditure is enormous. You heard6 Mr. 9 That's a modest estimate; I'm not sure if10 it can be done for that. 11 In the ballpark, 60,00012 We dispute the figure that a13 mere $1500 would render any property14 lead-safe. $1500 may in fact enable15 someone to go in and stabilize paint on16 the walls, but $1500 is not remotely17 going to stabilize exterior paint,18 interior paint, doors, windows, stairs,19 and soil. 21 If our goal was seeking to have22 no flaking paint on walls, that might be23 a number which means something. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 certification of lead safety or lead2 freedom, which we'll never achieve, but3 lead safety4 No lead inspector worth his or5 her credentials will declare a property6 lead-safe merely because the paint on the7 walls is now stabilized. They're going8 to say, Remove the windows, remove the9 doors, do something with the stairways,10 excavate the soil. 12 If it were that simple to say,13 Landlords, correct the problem, it would14 have been done already. 21 Now, we have a solution. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 level of government for decades, that is,2 where will the money come from, where can3 the money come from? 7 The source of the fund needs to8 be the source of the problem. 12 And the solution is very specific that we13 have proposed, and that would be:14 On the state level, that every15 gallon of paint which is sold in the16 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is to bear a17 tax, a surcharge of 50 cents per gallon18 of paint. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Everyone participates. No one wants2 taxes. Obviously not. You don't want to3 be the ones raising taxes. 8 And then the money is given not9 to penalize landlords, who are barely10 struggling; not to penalize tenants, who11 can't pay their rent. 17 The bill, as presently18 characterized, alters the status quo in a19 tremendous way. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 2 The present status allows any3 person who's renting or buying a property4 to satisfy him or herself that that5 property is lead-safe before moving in6 with small children7 Now, if you are middle-aged8 like some of us here, it's not really an9 issue for you. 11 So the excellent efforts of the12 Health Department, you've heard them say13 the value of education statistic I've14 heard this morning is magnificently15 phenomenal. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 4 You've heard testimony today5 about where the children reside.
There's6 an amazing statistic, which our good7 friend, the -- I'm not sure what her role8 is with Public Citizens for Children and9 Youth. She seems to run the show colleen10 McCauley. She's also someone we've dealt11 with, with great respect for many, many12 years. I'm not sure if she's here today;13 I know she was here last week. She left14 testimony on the table15 The last sentence of her16 testimony is crucial. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 of the children in the City. It's as if2 the City Council is saying, Well, we3 don't care -- and I know you do4 obviously, but about the 45 percent of5 children in our city who are poisoned6 that don't live in rental properties, 457 percent. 8 Let's focus in on the landlord9 because, for some reason, we think they10 should pay the dues here. But everyone11 else who owns a house that has lead in it12 and a lead problem, they're ignored in13 the bill14 And the problem spews over into15 rental properties. Susie's playing with16 her friend next door, and that house is17 an owner-occupied property infested with18 lead, but we're not interested in that19 So she goes next door and has a20 problem with lead poisoning and then21 comes home to own house, the identical22 house. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 The lead in the property next2 door -- lead dust, we've all learned, is3 not children taking a spoonful of paint4 and drinking it or eating a big plate5 full of lead paint. It's the dust in the6 air, the little flaking chips. That7 flaking dust flows out the windows, flows8 into the property next door9 Every time I see a building10 being torn down in the City, I feel like11 running into court with an injunction12 action. And I've called the Health13 Department and I've spoken with14 Mr. Palermo about this very issue15 They tore down Tasker Homes, or16 whatever it was. Where's the lead safety17 of tearing down that building, which was18 built in 1952? 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 repairs. You're painting a little tiny2 area, you're renovating a very small3 piece of wall; you now need to have such4 work practices, under the federal rules,5 to protect the environment. That is like6 sending somebody to the moon and you have7 to -- you know, like an operating theater8 at our finest hospital, with sheets of9 plastic, with boots that are to be10 protective. People coming in and out11 with all kinds of tests to make sure12 And our suggestion on that13 issue is, is that these new federal14 rules, which are just a year old; April15 of 2011, they began, a year old. Or16 maybe 2010, 2009. 18 The new federal rule needs to19 be given a chance to take effect. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 and walked out. Now that's a violation2 of federal law. 22 And yet, our organizations jointly have23 commissioned a study, an expensive study24 we had to pay for. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 9 From our perspective, the $60,000 number,10 okay, what's that going to cost? If11 someone has to spend $60,000 on a house12 that's worth $40,000, well, what does13 that mean? 19 You can't spend 6, 7, 8, 12,20 $20,000 on a piece of real estate in the21 areas which they're talking about, which22 is where our properties are, and think23 that the property will remotely remain24 economically viable; it will not. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 5 Even the inspection, okay,6 $450. Our numbers are closer to $600 for7 inspection. Well, you pass that onto a8 tenant, that's $50 a month. 10 Frankly, for our clientele, our11 tenants, who are struggling, paying more12 than 50 percent of their income on rent,13 $50 for them is a lot of money. That's14 just for an inspection15 And the economy is such today16 that we're being burdened. We were just17 burdened with a massive tax increase, we18 were burdened with excessive and19 increased license fees, we're burdened by20 a terrible economy.
We are burdened by21 potentially new tax increases, which,22 frankly, we sit here in disbelief that we23 are facing it again -- not through your24 fault. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 tax increase, we read in the news. We2 wish you luck dealing with us and3 constituents on that issue The economic4 impact is devastating5 And to hear that there's a6 thousand children in our city who are7 impacted is unacceptable, but this8 expenditure from property owners -- I9 don't like to use big numbers; they're10 sort of meaningless to me. A billion11 dollar. We're spending a billion dollars12 in this city in order to protect 5513 percent of those thousand (indiscernible)14 and children. A billion dollars for 55015 children is 550 too many, but there needs16 to be another way17 And that brings us back to18 where we began. That brings us back to19 finding money to solve the problem. It's20 not like school children, how do we make21 Johnny read? Well, I don't know. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 6 We hope we have been good participants in7 that; it doesn't occur in a vacuum. It8 is our property owners working hard,9 spending money, doing what they need to10 do to be good landlords11 We hope that you'll have a12 sense that the educational efforts of13 good housekeeping, which the Health14 Department does such a fabulous job in15 educating people. 17 It doesn't solve the problem if18 you have hardly deteriorated paint; we19 recognize that. But in an average20 property, it may21 So, in summary, we ask you to22 continue your good efforts. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 10 Money, a lead paint tax. Let's work11 together. 16 Everybody that hears this says,17 "That's a great idea," everybody. No18 one's done it yet. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. )3
Thank you4 very much.5 Questions?6 Councilman Goode.7
Thank you,8 Madam Chair.9 Mr. Zaslow, that was extremely10 eloquent testimony. But for the record,11 can you tell me what is specifically12 required of landlords under the new13 federal law?14
The landlords are15 now required -- number one, there's a16 pamphlet which must be given to your17 tenants every time you do renovation work18 which disturbs six square feet of area.19 I'm looking at one of your20 panels on this beautiful dais. If you21 disturb the (indiscernible) surface of22 that size -- forget a whole wall; you're23 definitely into it. A small area, number24 one, they have to get this pamphlet.25 93 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 The pamphlet is the best2 education you can ever have about the3 requirements preparing for the4 renovation, getting everybody out of the5 room, taking off rooms, using vacuums in6 such a fashion that any dust you create7 is completely removed, making sure that8 there's no dust left behind from your9 renovation --10
So landlords11 are required to educate their tenants.12 What else?13
Landlords are14 required to make sure that any -- that no15 person is in an area being disturbed16 while the work is being done, and no one17 returns until someone had said that it's18 safe to go back in after the renovation.19 And the cleanup is extensive.20 I will leave you, Councilman, if I may --21 this comes from MBA paint store. Every22 paint store in the City, and in the23 country 'cause it's a federal rule, sells24 this EPA pamphlet. You have to buy a25 94 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 stack of 'em so you can hand 'em out.2 And with your permission,3 Councilman, I'll leave you a copy of it.4 And reading through it, you will see the5 extensive work which is required.6 It used to be we did work, you7 know, where you'd go in with a blow torch8 and burn the paint off the wall.9 Somebody had a brilliant idea, Well,10 that's the way to solve the lead problem,11 until we learned that that was causing12 such a more significant problem, let's13 find a different way.14 And the new way is to renovate15 right, as the pamphlet says, as the law16 requires.17
So landlords18 are required to educate, and the19 landlords are required to follow the City20 regulations when they are renovating.21
Any renovator25 95 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 who's doing work. Landlords --2
My question3 was: Under the new federal law, what is4 required of landlords. So, so far,5 you've named two things: They are6 required to educate their tenants.7
And they're9 required to follow specific regulations10 with regard to renovation.11
Well, that's the14 significance of the rule, that's what it15 requires. Lead-safe work practices,16 proper cleanup, and proper education to17 the people who are there.18
I would say that's21 it, but it's an enormous amount of work22 when you're the person that has to23 accomplish it or, frankly, pay for it.24 You don't just send a painter25 96 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 in anymore to just take a scraper and2 scrape off the paint and let him sweep it3 up with a broom. If you do that, you're4 in violation of this rule. And as a5 result, the cost of that little minor6 renovation is also skyrocketing.7
I'd like12 to hear from the others, because you've13 triggered a number of follow-ups, but14 let's hear from the others first.15
Good morning. My21 name is Christine Young Gertz. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Greater Philadelphia. 7 They represent roughly 140,000 rental8 homes in this five-county area;9 approximately 40,000 of those homes are10 in Philadelphia. 15 AAGP members are apartment16 industry leaders who know the importance17 of practicing responsible fiscal and18 property management. We stress19 professionalism and education. Members20 know that delivering a good product,21 which is quality rental housing, is22 possible only by running their businesses23 according to the highest operational and24 service standards. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 20 Rental housing for all low- and21 moderate-income renters will be much more22 expensive and much harder to find. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 6 There are a myriad of federal7 and local laws already in place that have8 significantly reduced the number of cases9 of elevated blood lead levels in10 children. They cover all environmental11 lead paint exposure issues as well as12 notification, education, and disclosure13 requirements. 22 The new regs went into effect just last23 year, as Mr. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 2 Established law and the new3 federal renovation, repair and painting4 regs, often referred to as "RRP regs,"5 cover all of the ground this bill6 purportedly intends to go. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 19 Now, the definition of "lead20 poisoning" changed in 2005 to include21 children with blood lead levels less than22 nine micrograms per deciliter of blood,23 two tests in a three-month period. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 than 19 micrograms per deciliter. 5 Now, the proposed bill would6 require certification from rental owners7 to have their properties either lead-free8 or lead-safe, but there are already ample9 notice disclosure and certification10 requirements in current City law. 16 But anyway, at the moment, the17 Philadelphia Health Code already requires18 lessors of residential housing19 constructed prior to '78 have to disclose20 the absence or presence of lead-based21 paint or lead-based paint hazards. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 Lessees renewing their leases12 also have the right to obtain an13 inspection. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 5 And the Health Department's not6 the only division in City government7 already protecting residents from lead8 hazards. 14 The certificate requires an15 acknowledgment on the part of the rental16 owner of his or her obligation to provide17 a habitable apartment. 20 A habitable apartment is one21 where conditions vital to the life,22 health, and safety of the tenant are23 provided. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 13 The property maintenance code14 also requires landlords to provide15 tenants with the guide book "Partners for16 Good Housing" at the start of every17 tenancy. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 12 Long-established federal13 regulations also require disclosure,14 notice, and education when renting15 housing. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 lead-based paint and/or hazards and the2 existence of any available records or3 reports pertaining to the lead-based4 paint and/or lead-paint hazards, and any5 additional information available6 concerning the hazards. 9 And as we've mentioned a couple10 of times, the brand-new federal11 renovation, repair, and painting12 regulations strictly control the13 procedures for renovating, repairing, and14 painting in residences and child-care15 facilities so as to eliminate the16 possibility of releasing lead dust into17 the environment. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 removal of deteriorated lead-based paint2 by scraping, sanding, or other methods3 aggravated the problem and increased lead4 exposures. 7 The new regs are the definitive8 addition to the many protections in place9 and will reduce even further, if not10 eliminate, the chance for exposure to11 lead dust, which is the most common cause12 of lead poisoning. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 4 We commissioned a study, as5 Mr.
Zaslow mentioned, to look at the6 impact of this bill -- the economic7 impact of this bill. 18 Many owners will be unable to19 pay those costs and will be forced to20 raise rents or take their property off21 the market. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 notwithstanding, the bill would likely2 cause a severe disruption in the3 availability of privately-owned low-4 income rental units. 21 For some properties, the cost22 of the required repairs could exceed the23 market value of the property. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 2 Commercial loans for property purchases3 or improvements hinge on the requirements4 of lending institutions for a certain5 level of net operating income. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 self-funding is impossible, the2 temptation to forego compliance with3 regulations altogether and4 surreptitiously rent their properties is5 a reality. 18 The question is important19 because one of the significant costs of20 the bill will impose on Philadelphia's21 entire rental community, with no22 assurance that it will reach those it is23 intended to help. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 3 The great threat to the4 financial stability of rental owners is5 clear. 7 In short, the unintended8 consequences of this bill will have a9 far-reaching detrimental effect on every10 kind of rental home in the city. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 3 I respectfully urge the4 committee to refrain from placing this5 additional burden on the rental6 community. 10 I would also like to reiterate11 at this point that the Apartment12 Association would strongly support and13 help in any way we can to further what14 Mr. 18 And I might add too, just last19 week, on behalf of the Apartment20 Association, I sent a letter in support21 of the Health Department's efforts to22 obtain continued funding from HUD to23 continue their vital, necessary work in24 their lead-prevention programs. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 8
Thank you9 very much for your extensive testimony.10 We'll wait until everybody11 testifies, and then we'll have questions.12 Mr. Pinckney?13
I just want to14 add on to -- HAPCO also applied with the15 Health Department for the HUD funds.16 And just to add to something17 Christine said. Banks are actually18 today, actually calling in commercial19 loans that aren't performing when the20 return on investment drops below what21 they figure the limits that they want of22 that.23 So it is a heck of a burden24 upon property owners.25 117 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
Good morning. 9 I'm Alan Lindy. 21 As a company, we are -- we see22 ourselves on the cutting edge of23 sustainability. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Philadelphia. During the last two years,2 we invested over $800,000 in state-of-3 the-art new windows, over a4 million-dollar in new (indiscernible)5 radiant heating and air-conditioning6 systems and (indiscernible)7 modernizations. 10 We specialize in rehabbing11 distressed or empty properties and12 maintaining them. All seventeen13 properties that we have in Philadelphia14 we've been involved with over seven15 years; eight of them over twenty years;16 two of them over fifty years. One of17 them was built in 1939, 72 years ago. 19 I think the properties are20 gorgeous, and they add to the value of21 the neighborhoods. Whether people live22 in Mt. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 3 Our family's also been involved4 actively with programs throughout the5 City, many of them focusing with6 children. 10 We serve on the Board of the11 Urban Affairs Coalition. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 12 And that is sort of the13 background. 15 But I'm opposed to this bill16 because I believe this implementation17 will result in more vacant housing. It18 will definitely lower the tax revenues19 coming to the City of Philadelphia. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 It's overreaching. 9 It's not just the price of the10 testing; it also includes the price of11 waiting for the certificate in assuming12 it could be done. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 about 30 percent since 2006. 7 In our company, if you were8 to -- if we were to add the number of9 apartments over the number of years that10 we have provided since this effort of --11 or the knowledge of lead paint being an12 issue, it comes up to somewhere at that13 time -- it's more now. 16 And in those what would be17 equivalent to 63,000 years, I had one18 situation, just one, where I was notified19 of a child having lead paint. In that20 one situation -- or lead in their blood21 system, rather. The child did not live22 in the apartment; it was a grandchild of23 the resident. The City tested the24 apartment. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 And this is what I see as the12 difficulty. 15 This is also half of a16 question. I wanted -- the City officials17 just mentioned earlier that the level of18 children testing positively had decreased19 in the twenty years from 80 percent to20 about 2 percent. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. something percent are3 testing positively now, that number is a4 much lower tolerance level than what5 existed twenty years ago with it. 9
Thank you10 very much.11 The Chair recognizes12 Councilwoman Brown. She will stay, she13 will ask questions.14 And let me recognize that15 Councilwoman Maria Quiñones Sanchez has16 joined the committee.17 Councilwoman Brown?18
Good19 morning. I do thank you all for the20 quite informative testimony on all sides.21 And the testimony both from the Health22 Department and the stakeholder group has23 triggered a number of questions for me.24 The good news is that you're25 125 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 willing to participate in a solution and2 one that hasn't -- well, I am curious to3 know: Do you know if there are other4 states that have actually introduced5 legislation that focuses on the paint6 companies? Do you have anything --7
New Jersey has8 such a tax on paint. We could model9 ourselves, to some extent, on what New10 Jersey has done.11 The problem with the paint12 manufacturers is they've been sued by the13 City of Chicago, the Dallas School Board,14 the State of California, without real15 success in drawing the manufacturers in16 because no one could prove which drop of17 paint on which wall was produced by which18 paint company.19
So as a result of21 that, instead of holding all of the paint22 manufacturers liable, all of them pretty23 much have escaped.24 But all of us using paint, we25 126 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 could all solve the problem because we2 all use paint, and the people sitting3 here at the table more than anybody.4 Mr. Lindy probably goes through more5 paint than anybody in this city as often6 as he paints. He'll pay more taxes --7
But new11 Jersey is the only state that has been12 successful; is that what I heard?13
It's18 helpful to know where there's been some19 level of success around a similar20 problem.21 Would it be fair to say also22 based on your testimony -- and I want to23 make sure I heard what I think I read,24 and that is that the law is too broad,25 127 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 that if we -- meaning apartment --2 landlords who rent to families with no3 children, seniors who have no children --4
Student9 housing, who have no children, or maybe.10 And so, in no way to speak for11 you, but in an effort to find where the12 common ground is, would it be fair for me13 to say narrow it to just landlords who14 rent to children. Would that be a fair15 characterization of your testimony, that16 the law is too broad, and if there was an17 opportunity to narrow it, that would be a18 fair way to go to?19
That is a fair20 characterization, Councilwoman.21 We should point out that here,22 at the table, as you now, because you've23 now come to know us as players in this24 matter, that there's different kinds of25 128 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 property owners. There's the property2 owners of nice buildings and there's the3 property owners that are renting out4 single-family houses which are much more5 likely to be the source of the problem.6
That's where the8 children live.9 So you are correct in saying --10 and certainly I don't want to speak for11 the apartment owners, but I can guarantee12 you, they will jump up in a minute and13 say, you know, it's terrific, that if you14 narrow the focus to families with small15 children only, that that does16 significantly narrow the focus of the17 bill.18 We would still want to come to19 some better understanding of what the20 families are going to be receiving from21 the owner as opposed to this full22 inspection for full eradication. I like23 Mr. Palermo's sense of making sure paint24 is being stabilized for families under25 129 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 the age of six; that would certainly be2 something we'd want to consider and3 explore.4
And, again, this is8 somewhat of a gut reaction on it, but9 certainly, if there was an intention to10 address those children who really are11 most at risk at having the higher levels12 of lead in their blood, I think that13 should be the focus with it.14 I think it was testified15 earlier that they tend to be in certain16 areas, in poverty level. I believe that17 the federal government came out and said18 that 85 percent of the children who do19 test positive are very in low-income20 situations, usually with subsidized21 housing with it.22 And it's -- and I also think23 that, you know, you would want to look at24 not all levels are the same, whether25 130 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 somebody is a point over the federal2 level or whether they're three times as3 much, it might affect the different risks4 that those children incur and what the5 response would be.6 So I think your suggestion of7 looking at really where are the risks for8 those particular children and not being9 so broad to cover everybody for something10 that might be a very, very small number11 of children, but focusing on those who12 are most exposed with it.13
Which is14 why we're asking the Health Department to15 send us the map, Map J, so we could see16 visually what that looks like, what that17 reads like.18 I am not a lawyer, let the19 record reflect, but I would suspect that20 that might trigger a legal consideration.21 So as much as we want to take as much22 information as possible we have to be23 mindful of what that -- from going to24 broad to narrow might mean legally. So25 131 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 we just need to, you know, say that as we2 try to find some common ground.3
I think it was4 mentioned that there was a certain amount5 of testing in the children, and maybe6 it's already done already, but that test7 would be done with those children who are8 just, you know, statistically considered9 most at risk with it, and then addressing10 it, you know, when it shows up as11 positive in terms of how to best serve12 them (indiscernible).13
Well, they're,16 um... I'm sorry. I was actually17 responding...18
Councilwoman, I22 could write for you the four paragraphs23 which I would say would really contribute24 to solving the problems, if I could offer25 132 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 it to you. I can read it in the record2 right now, what the law might read like3 to contribute towards solving the4 problem.5 May I do so? It's four short6 paragraphs. The law would read:7 No person in the City of8 Philadelphia shall offer for rent to any9 family or individual with children under10 the age of six without first:11 1. Performing a visual12 inspection of all painted surfaces in the13 unit.14 2. Correcting any chipped,15 peeling, or otherwise deficient painted16 surfaces.17 3. Advising the tenant in18 writing, in addition to any and all other19 notifications otherwise required by law,20 as to the importance of the tenant21 likewise performing a visual inspection22 of all painted surfaces prior to23 occupancy and during the entire pendency24 of the lease, and drawing to the25 133 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 attention of the owner any deficiencies2 in painted surfaces which may arise.3 4. The landlord to confirm in4 writing to the tenant that the owner has5 performed the visual inspection and that6 any chipped, peeling, or otherwise7 deficient painted surfaces have been8 corrected and, upon notification from the9 tenant at any time during the pendency of10 the lease, any such deficiency in any11 painted surfaces will be corrected12 forthwith.13 (Applause.)14
If that were the15 law -- it's a burden on property owners,16 but if that is how the law might read,17 the other side the of the issue will tell18 you that it's not good enough for the19 landlord to visually inspect and tell the20 tenant, "I inspected."21 But what an enormous step22 forward for property owners to be23 required to give a written statement to a24 tenant, not like the law is now, which I25 134 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 don't have any idea about lead paint.2 That's what the law is now: I know, I3 don't know, and landlord may pretend they4 don't know; I don't know what the real5 life is.6 But the law says now if you7 know that there's a lead-paint problem,8 you must tell the tenant. You don't9 know, you tell 'em, "I don't have any10 idea," which is a dangerous thing to do.11 As an owner, you have some responsibility12 to know.13 So the other side will say,14 Look, the visual inspection is not the15 same as paying for this --16
-- for19 certification, but all of the issues20 which arise with certification is, no one21 will be able to get to certification.22 And if we want to move forward to the23 painted surfaces, which the Health24 Department has told you is their main25 135 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 focus, not attacking here the lead in the2 soil and every window and every door;3 but, rather, requiring an owner to4 perform a visual inspection, to notify5 the tenant in writing that it's been6 done, and to correct any paint issues.7 I'll tell my people, You sign a8 certification like that, and some tenant9 has some problems with one of their10 children, and you told them, "I inspected11 and I corrected," and you didn't, well,12 I'll give them my card because we'll be13 happy to sue the landlord who's done14 that.15 Or, if under this law as I16 proposed it to you, the tenant writes in17 and says there's -- like the Health18 Department said, the roof's leaked and19 now I have peeling lead paint; I need to20 correct it.21 And the owner, after giving a22 written statement to the tenant, "If you23 notify me, I will be there forthwith to24 correct that lead issue on that wall,"25 136 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 and you don't, that's a liability that no2 sane property owner is going to allow3 himself or herself to find himself in.4 So it's short of a5 certification from an expensive certifier6 who will never be able to certify that7 the total property is lead-safe because8 of windows, doors, soils. But look at9 the great stride forward if every owner,10 before renting out a property, gives that11 written statement to a tenant.12
I would13 certainly like to take that as part of14 the testimony and as an opportunity to15 have again further discussion.16 That also triggers another17 question that I had, and that is:18 Internally as an organization, what19 penalties, what notices do you give your20 membership persons also known as "slum21 landlords" who simply don't care and feel22 no sense, no moral obligation to do23 anything right?24
Mr. Pinckney.25 137 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
We try to make2 sure that our landlords are informed.3 We've had several classes on the RRP4 rule. Whenever tenants or owners call5 the office, asking questions about6 anything, we try to find out. If we7 don't know the information, we try to8 find it for 'em.9 And in of the past, if we found10 that we had the so-called slum landlord,11 we got rid of them.12
So you13 do -- as a rule or as a practice or as14 some protocol matter, you do not15 represent slum landlords; is that fair to16 say?17
To the best of18 our knowledge, once we become aware19 because, understand, we have about 3,00020 members, all right? But when we are made21 aware of it that we have a landlord that22 is a problem, we get rid of them.23
First we try to24 correct the problem. Much more25 138 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 important, first we say, Do you have any2 idea what you're doing? You're putting a3 tenant at risk with what you're doing.4 Be a good landlord. The City won't be5 after you, the lawyers for the tenant6 won't be after you. Do your job as an7 owner.8 So, you know, eventually, we9 will say to someone about our bylaws,10 You're not abiding by City rules; you11 can't be a member of our organization.12 But our goal is to educate them, to say,13 "Be a proper property owner." Everybody14 benefits by that.15
Do you16 have some type of a tenant action17 engagement sit-down meetings, some kind18 of regular sit-around-the-table? I'm19 just trying to get a handle on how the20 organization --21 (Indiscernible; parties talking22 over each other.)23
... who's here.24 George Gould is my bitter opponent for25 139 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 thirty years and one of my dearest2 friend. Phil Lord, the same issue; we've3 been at it for decades together. And we4 meet regularly, we discuss these issues5 regularly, and we'll do so in the future6 even more so.7 And if you pass a law like the8 one I just described, we'll be the ones9 pushing it. We will be the ones pushing10 it and helping to push it.11
My last12 question: You stated somewhere in the13 testimony amongst the three of you that14 we should give the federal law more time15 to take effect. Define that for us in16 terms of a real timetable; six months,17 twelve months, eight months, 24?18
If I could just19 speak to that and also add what our20 association does in terms of education21 with regard to these things.22 The problem with it -- with the23 RRP regulations now is that there are not24 enough certified workers; you know,25 140 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 workers to do the job who are certified.2 There's a great need for certification, a3 number of workers.4 So it's hard to put a timetable5 on it, but I would venture that we're6 talking months out, maybe a year out.7 I know that my association8 offers the certification training and has9 in the past and, I'm sure, will in the10 future.11 I'm not certain -- maybe the12 Health Department can speak to it -- but13 I think they might also offer that kind14 of certification training.15 So we do know one thing and one16 thing, and the one thing is: There17 definitely has to be a little more time18 for enough certified workers to get in19 the market to be able to handle, you20 know, the routine, daily maintenance and21 repair tasks that the regs encompass.22
The employer would25 141 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 pay for the training. For instance, if2 one of our members wants to have somebody3 on staff, they send their worker to the4 courses to be certified.5 I'd also like to just add to6 what Victor said about our organizations7 and what we do.8 We are affiliated with the9 National Apartment Association, and10 through them, we offer a significant11 number of education courses to our12 members all year-round on property13 maintenance and property management and14 lead safety and fair housing.15 I don't know if we're preaching16 to the choir in terms of our members.17 Our members tend to join us because of18 our commitment to advancing the industry.19 And, as I say, we are industry leaders in20 that.21 But our approach is to22 emphasize all kinds of education and all23 kinds of training in any area of property24 management. For instance, one of the25 142 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 pamphlets that is required to be given to2 new tenants, the federal government3 pamphlet, is -- I get pamphlets confused.4 It's "Protect Your Family From Lead," and5 we publish them and we provide then to6 our members to hand to their new tenants.7 I think just to cover our publishing8 costs, we have to charge a nominal -- I9 don't know; I think it's 25 cents per10 pamphlet or something, but --11
My last12 question on this is: Is that a standard13 operating procedure that that pamphlet is14 handed over as a part of the signing of15 the lease?16
Every lease in the21 City, the law requires that sort of22 notice as well. So that pamphlet has got23 to go -- and we're talking pre-197824 housing, not all housing.25 143 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
But5 verbally handing over a lease and it6 being actually stipulated on a form where7 there's a checkoff is different. So what8 happens withing the association?9
Oh, within the10 association? I was speaking directly11 about our education programs in the12 association.13
Right.14 And so what I'm saying is: Is that in15 writing? On a lease form that you hand16 over to a tenant, do you have a box that17 says, "We have given this tenant" -- you18 know how you have to go to the doctor's19 and sign off on all these forms?20 (Indiscernible; parties talking21 over each other.)22
The last page of23 the booklet is that form that you certify24 that you gave the tenant this exact25 144 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 federal booklet.2
Okay. I3 wanted that for the record. Okay.4 Thank you, Madam Chair.5
Thank you.6 Any other questions?7 Councilwoman Sanchez.8
Yes.9 Thank you.10 First, I wanted to start off by11 saying that I'm a lead baby. I had lead12 from living in scattered-site PHA13 twenty -- too many years ago. So this is14 an issue that's really personal.15 That said, I also had an16 opportunity to own several rental units17 with my husband that we got out of when I18 ran for office. And I really do19 appreciate the work that HAPCO and all of20 you are doing in terms of the cost,21 'cause ultimately for me, it's safety for22 the kids first, but also keeping23 apartments affordable because of the24 constituency that I represent.25 145 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 So I just wanted to acknowledge2 your willingness to say to us you believe3 that we need to do more, one. We may4 need to go further than the federal5 government, and that's okay because6 that's part of our jobs locally. And7 that you're committed to working with8 Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds-Brown to9 get, as she says, move the needle. And10 so, I'm committed to working with the11 Councilwoman on that.12 But I appreciate the fact that13 you're being very thoughtful and coming14 forth with some recommendations and some15 willingness to help us move that needle.16 So I just wanted to put that17 for the record because this is a very18 serious issue.19
If you hadn't had20 that lead problem, Councilwoman, instead21 of being, quote, just a councilwoman, you22 probably would be like the president or23 something. So the lead set you back, but24 you seem to be doing tremendously well.25 146 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
Thank you.4 I'd like to say thank you to5 you for coming down to testify and6 listening and offering recommendations.7 The 50-cent tax on paint is a8 hard nut to crack in Harrisburg. But,9 you know, we have people up there that --10 (Indiscernible; parties talking11 over each other.)12
Well, we13 actually have some support for it, but14 (indiscernible) in the last election.15
But we are17 reaching out to the other side, and they18 seem to be willing to listen.19
Okay.20 Thank you.21 Thank you, Mr. Lindy, who is a22 property owner in the Ninth Council23 District.24
Thank you very25 147 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 much.2
Thank you.4 I apologize I have to go.5 Councilwoman Brown will now chair the6 meeting.7
More8 specifically, she has to clone herself so9 that we can be at multiple places at one10 time, which is not unusual at this11 juncture of the calendar year.12 So let's continue to accept13 testimony at this hour. And if I may, I14 want to call up panel number 3. Please15 join us:16 Carla Campbell, Pediatrician17 with the Children's Hospital of18 Philadelphia, and also an associate19 teaching professor with Drexel20 University;21 Colleen McCauley, who's been a22 real voice and champion on this issue,23 Health Policy Director with the Public24 Citizens for Children and Youth;25 148 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Nicole White, Assistant2 Director with the Tenant Union3 Representative Network;4 Jane Malone, welcome back.5 Director of Policy, now with the National6 Center for Healthy Housing;7 And Evette Gringrow, Tenant.8 (Witnesses come forward.)9
So, again,10 we want to hear all of the testimony and11 then open it up to questions. And we'll12 start with Carla Campbell.13
14 My name is Dr. Carla Campbell; that's15 C-A-M-P-B-E-L-L. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 The American Academy of12 Pediatricians has summarized the many13 health impacts of lead exposure. 17 Low lead levels cause a wide18 array of negative effects, including19 cognitive, motor, behavioral, and20 physical harm. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 10 At high levels, lead can be11 fatal. Unfortunately, I have seen this12 firsthand. We saw one child at13 Children's Hospital who had an extensive14 hospital stay in the intensive-care unit15 and required years of follow-up. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 nation has for decades pursued a2 multifaceted strategy of reducing3 children's exposure to lead from all4 sources including air, paint, soil, food,5 water, and the full range of consumer6 product. 15 Once children's lead levels are16 high enough, it is necessary to give them17 medicines called "chelating agents,"18 which take some of the lead, mostly that19 which is in the blood and soft tissues,20 out of their bodies. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 visits and blood draws. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. S. children are exposed3 to lead through ingestion of4 lead-contaminated house dust and soil5 while living in homes that were built6 prior to 1978 that have deteriorated lead7 paint. 10 Most children do not eat paint11 chips but ingest small amounts of lead-12 contaminated dust through hand-to-mouth13 activity repeated hundreds of times each14 day. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Lead Court, which was created by the City2 in 2002. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 3 Proactive inspections might4 have detected many of these properties5 before a child on the property became6 exposed to lead and developed elevated7 blood lead levels. Therefore, it is8 essential to prevent children's lead9 exposure in the first place. "12 The Centers for Disease Control13 and Prevention, CDC, along with the14 Department of Housing and Urban15 Development and the Environmental16 Protection Agency strongly recommend17 preventing lead exposure in children18 versus secondary prevention through19 testing of children's blood for elevated20 levels. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 including proactive inspection of2 properties for lead problems, before3 children get exposed and poisoned, we can4 prevent the adverse health effects5 mentioned earlier. 10 We all know that lead exposure11 impacts children's futures, including12 their ability to do well in school and13 acquire a good education, to obtain a14 useful and productive job, and to make15 positive contributions to their16 communities. 18 Our children are our most19 precious resource. 22
Thank you23 very, very much for your testimony.24 I'm going to alter the process25 157 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 here, since I'm the only one here, and2 ask questions as I go along the way just3 to stay on top of my own notes here.4 First of all, thank you for5 important work you do on behalf of our6 city's children.7
And I very9 much appreciate the research 'cause10 research can be very compelling in what11 you did around the Lead Court.12
Has there14 been any coordination with St. Chris15 Hospital and/or other pediatricians that16 are not affiliated with either hospital17 any around the issue of reducing lead?18
Well,21 coordination is helpful in knowing what22 other like institutions or professionals23 are doing to again reduce down the24 incidence.25 158 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 And so, I'm just curious if2 that's a part of the protocols of how3 hospitals work around this, or no? So4 I'm asking.5
Well, in terms6 of educating pediatricians and other7 people that see children for health care,8 I think, is maybe the question you're9 asking.10 The Philadelphia Health11 Department has been very proactive in12 terms of educating health-care providers,13 including pediatricians --14
-- on the facts16 around childhood lead exposure and on the17 need to do the blood lead screening.18 So in terms of -- you know, the19 City Health Department, I think, has been20 involved in educating health-care21 providers and parents so parents are22 aware of the need for screening as well.23 And that's essentially how, you know,24 people are -- health-care providers are25 159 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 educated.2 Also, the American Academy of3 Pediatricians, you know, has a lot of4 informational materials that are5 available for pediatricians. So there's,6 I think, a lot of information out there7 for health-care providers to be able to8 know of their responsibilities to be9 testing for lead.10
Sure. As11 a part of the intake process at12 Children's Hospital, have you considered13 the process of tracking, as was raised by14 Councilwoman Tasco and by other15 testifiers here? Do you track to see16 what parts of the City the children come17 from?18
Well, we -- the19 work I was describing before was the Lead20 Clinic --21
-- which the23 hospital, unfortunately, closed down in24 2007. But it was operating for about25 160 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 twenty years prior to that.2 We were a regional referral3 center --4
-- so we saw6 children actually from all over Southeast7 Pennsylvania, New Jersey.8
The problem is10 widespread. You know, it seems to be11 more concentrated in Philadelphia12 probably due to the fact that there is a13 higher percent of (indiscernible) housing14 and also poor-condition housing.15
One other16 observation that was raised by one of the17 stakeholders is the notion that the bill,18 as is currently written is very, very19 broad.20 And you're a pediatrician, so21 awareness of adults who ingest lead and22 then see negative medical effects you23 probably could not speak to, could you?24
Can you be a25 161 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 little more specific?2
Well, I'm3 curious to know if, in cases where adults4 ingest lead, do we have the same5 outcomes, medical outcomes?6
Yeah. I mean,7 anybody can get lead toxicity; anybody8 can get encephalopathy, which is sort of9 massive brain involvement and brain10 damage.11 Adults can die from lead12 poisoning as well. And some adults are13 at risk, particularly those that work14 with lead occupationally.15 Children are at increased risk16 during pregnancy, when they're fetuses,17 and then particularly for the first three18 years of life because they are -- their19 brains are undergoing lots of development20 and --21
-- there's lots23 of processes that happen. Lead24 interferes with those processes in a25 162 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 negative way. And so, it impacts greatly2 on how children develop.3 The other unfortunate thing is,4 as I said before, they explore their5 world through hand-to-mouth activity. So6 if they are touching surfaces that have7 lead dust or lead soil and then just8 putting their hands in their mouths9 literally hundreds of times a day, they10 can get exposed very quickly and on an11 ongoing daily basis.12
And so, that's14 why we need to protect children. Knowing15 their increased risk and suseptibility to16 the exposure, we adults need to recognize17 that that's a problem.18
And it really20 impacts -- the children at most risk in21 this city are the children that are22 low-income and particularly children of23 minority backgrounds, including24 African-American and Latino children.25 163 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 That's a large part of the children we2 see at Children's Hospital; and,3 therefore, we do see many children with4 elevated blood levels, probably more so5 than in other areas of the City.6
But West and8 North Philly in general have had pockets,9 you know, a higher percentage of children10 in those areas with elevated blood lead11 levels, but the City has more detail on12 this.13
Surely,14 surely, surely.15 This is totally off-topic, and16 I'll make a rhetorical statement here,17 but hearing your professional medical18 observations about the brain and the19 light, and now listening to CNN -- I'm a20 geek for CNN -- and all of the medical21 reports they're now doing around cell22 phones for children, who have thin skulls23 and the like, it just raised a whole24 'nother level of concern for us as25 164 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 professionals, legislators, and parents.2 But that's a story for another day.3 But hearing your testimony4 triggered that for me.5 Councilwoman Sanchez, do you6 have any questions?7
Okay.13 Please, Colleen McCauley, PCCY, if you14 could please offer your testimony.15 MS. McCAULEY: Sure. Actually,16 George Gould --17 (Indiscernible; parties talking18 over each other.)19
11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Gould. 3 I might say that I have been4 involved in lead-based paint for a long,5 long time. I've been involved in some6 major litigation against HUD and the7 Housing Authority. 11 I just wanted to make a couple12 of comments in part on some of the13 testimony with my friend Mr. 20 And that is, as Dr. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 out and inspects a property only after a2 child is determined to have an elevated3 blood lead level. Quite frankly, that is4 wrong. 9 We should not be using a child10 to determine whether or not a property11 has lead in it. 19 But, quite frankly, the policy20 that we have in place and the system we21 have in place uses the child as the22 canary to determine if there is lead. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 2 The second point I wanted to3 mention is that what we are talking about4 doing is having landlords do, prior to5 leasing of property is, quite frankly,6 what they're required to do anyway. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 requires is that they attain a2 certificate from someone who is3 independent, who goes into the property4 and does some dust wipes and determines5 that that property is lead-safe. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 no peeling paint. 3 Lead dust is invisible; you4 cannot see it. There may have been5 peeling paint; the landlord may have done6 something to correct it, but the lead7 dust may be all over the floor, window8 sills, et cetera. 10 Now, there was some discussion11 about the cost. You know, this12 ordinance -- and there's going to be13 testimony about it -- or this bill is not14 unique to Philadelphia. , Rochester,16 Minneapolis, Cincinnati. 19 And the doom and gloom that has20 been predicted that will take place if21 this happens has not taken place in these22 cities. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 priorities, what do we do to protect2 children who are going to be living in3 properties that have potential lead4 hazards. 11
Thank you12 for your testimony.13 Also, we've heard testimony14 suggesting that -- implying that we15 should focus purely on families with16 small children. What is your view about17 that?18
Well, several19 things. One is, if we have an ordinance20 that says you only have to do this for21 families with children, it's22 inconceivable to me that you will not23 have discrimination in renting to24 families with small children. Landlords25 171 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 will set up all sorts of barriers -- some2 obvious, some not so obvious, some3 subtle -- that will reduce the supply of4 housing because they won't have to go5 through this process, which they view so6 onerous.7 Second of all, you have small8 children visiting apartments. Even if9 it's elderly, families without children,10 they come, they may stay overnight, they11 spend the weekend there, they may even12 spend even more time.13 It seems to me that this is14 something we do not believe is onerous;15 it's something that landlords basically16 are going to need to do, or do when they17 end up leasing a property anyway. And we18 think that there are some problems in19 discrimination. And also the problems of20 small children visiting a property, which21 could lead to problems with lead hazards.22
Okay. Any23 questions?24 (No questions.)25 172 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
Okay,2 then. 5 Colleen, did you want to6 provide testimony? 7 MS. McCAULEY: Hi. I'm Colleen8 McCauley. 12 And thank you, Councilwoman13 Blondell Reynolds-Brown, for your14 leadership on this issue and continuing15 these efforts to eliminate lead16 poisoning. 20 And, as you've heard, lead does21 permanently injure children. No cure22 exists to reverse the irreparable damage23 that lead inflicts on children, just as24 Dr. Carla Campbell described. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 13 This has been accomplished by14 undertaking actions that identify lead15 hazards in homes before children are16 poisoned by them. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 3 As you heard Dr. Campbell4 describe, there's been a significant5 increase in the percentage of properties6 that have been made lead-safe since the7 inception of Lead Court. 12 The bad news is that too many13 young kids are still poisoned by lead in14 Philadelphia every year. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 7 The City's property maintenance8 code requires rental property owners to9 maintenance their property free of10 hazards, including lead-paint-based11 hazards. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 The existing protections in the2 housing code do not go far enough because3 young children are still being poisoned4 in the City. And, again, you heard5 Dr. Campbell and George Gould say we're6 done, we're done with using kids as the7 test for whether or not there's lead in a8 property. 10 Consequentially, the11 protections that we have need to be12 strengthened. 21 Jurisdictions across the22 country, like Philadelphia, continue to23 struggle with how to stop children from24 being poisoned. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 process. 8 Of the 28,000 housing units9 that were inspected in those first two10 years, nearly 3,440 of them, or 1211 percent, failed a lead hazard test. 16 And the average cost for a lead17 test two years after the law was passed18 was at $150, which was half of what it19 was estimated when the law went into20 effect. 21 It costs far less to remediate22 a property, right? than it does to23 remediate a child. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Tragically, some rental2 properties in this city still poison3 children, but they sure shouldn't, and4 they don't have to anymore. 10 We look forward to the day when11 no children in Philadelphia are poisoned12 by lead. 18
Thank you.19 Councilwoman Sanchez,20 questions?21 On of your testimony,22 you reference the D.C. law, which23 indicates or states that lead-based-paint24 hazards are illegal in all residential25 181 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 dwellings. I actually was just going to2 ask about day-care centers, even, you3 know, what do we do right here, in the4 City, around child-care centers.5 So is that to suggest that the6 bill in D.C. mirrors the bill that we're7 discussing and attempting to act on8 today?9 MS. McCAULEY: We based10 Philadelphia -- the bill before us is11 modeled off of the D.C. bill. It is not12 a replica of that bill; there are some13 differences.14
The bill15 --16 MS. McCAULEY: Well, for17 example, it doesn't -- this bill doesn't18 impact child-care facilities, for19 example. We're talking about rental20 properties.21 Jane Malone is with us to22 testify, and perhaps she could point out23 other differences between this bill --24
Okay.25 182 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 MS. McCAULEY: -- and the law2 that's been passed -- the law that's in3 effect, excuse me, in D.C.4
Okay.5 Throughout your testimony, you reference6 children. And admittedly, I overlooked7 the notion that our bill actually taps8 the world -- senior citizens and adults9 alike.10 MS. McCAULEY: Mm-hmm.11
And so,12 with that, what is your reaction to that13 observation made by one of our14 testifiers?15 MS. McCAULEY: I have the same16 concerns that you heard George Gould17 share with you a few minutes ago. You're18 talking about properties where only small19 children live?20
No,21 actually -- well, am I suggesting that?22 Um...23 MS. McCAULEY: I would be24 concerned about discrimination for25 183 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 families with small children and their2 ability to find rental housing.3
Okay, all4 right. All right, then.5 Thank you very much for your6 work that you've been doing, which should7 not going unnoticed. We know that8 complicated issues like this don't happen9 overnight.10 MS. McCAULEY: Right.11
So we need12 to acknowledge the work you've done prior13 to sitting in this chair. Thank you very14 much.15 MS. McCAULEY: Thank you.16
Okay.17 Let's please now go to Nicole White,18 Assistant Director for the --19 (Mr. Lord comes forward.)20
I'm Phil Lord.23 Nicole White will not be here, and I will24 attempt to represent her as well.25 184 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
-- which is the14 Tenant and Union Representative Network.15 At TURN, we see thousands of tenants16 every year. We have tenants' rights17 classes every day. People come with all18 kinds of problems, including repair19 problems and problems like these.20 We also deal with them21 one-on-one, with one-on-one22 consultations, when you have more serious23 problems that haven't been resolved in24 your workshop; we've got housing25 185 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 counselors.2 And so -- and we help them deal3 with L&I and with the Health Department4 sometimes and with various City agencies.5 And so, we see it sort of on a firsthand6 basis, what tenants are going through in7 trying to deal with the problem of lead8 paint.9 And I think it's very important10 to put it in a realistic context of what11 it can and can't do when they have a12 problem like this.13 We hear a lot of theoretical14 things, and some my testimony goes into15 that, and I'll highlight that in a16 minute.17 But as a matter of practice,18 when a tenant is in a property and they19 see paint peeling, whether it's lead or20 not, there are very few things they can21 actually do with any kind of22 effectiveness, and that's one of the23 challenges that we face in the24 organization.25 186 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 They can call their landlord2 and complain and say, "I want a paint3 job." And, you know, for low-income4 tenants, that telephone call, or even a5 letter, doesn't always get them the6 response that they should be getting. So7 it's very difficult for them to get8 landlords who are undercapitalled and9 underfunded to do the kind of work that10 needs to be done, even at the request of11 a tenant.12 Theoretically-speaking, they13 can go to court and sue the landlord, but14 Legal Services can't handle those kind of15 cases, and George can correct me if I'm16 wrong, but those fee-generating cases17 generally cannot be handled by Legal18 Services, so they have to get a private19 attorney.20 And to get a private attorney21 to sue your landlord to get your property22 painted is just not cost-effective. It23 makes no sense when you're trying to24 (indiscernible) thousands of dollars. An25 187 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 attorney can charge $2,000 for a tenant2 to bring a lawsuit against their3 landlord, so that doesn't work either.4 You can call L&I, you can call5 the Health Department, and we know their6 resources are limited, the number of7 inspectors is limited, their capacity is8 limited.9 And even when they do -- when10 L&I does come out, paint jobs are not the11 highest priority you can imagine, given12 what's going on in the City of13 Philadelphia. So you don't always get a14 strong, vociferous response to that kind15 of a call.16 So what we have to do in this17 situation where, as folks have said18 already, unfortunately, our children19 guinea pigs and become the first line of20 defense against this environmental21 hazard. We're putting them out there,22 everybody gets sick, and then we respond.23 We think that is immoral and24 unacceptable. We believe that housing is25 188 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 a human right, and everybody is entitled2 to decent housing.3 And so, what I would like to do4 is take a just minute now to turn it over5 to Miss Gringrow to tell you about her6 story and what happened with her, to put7 it in context.8
If you12 could state your full name for the13 record. And welcome to these14 proceedings.15
Move17 closer to the table or pull the mic18 closer to you.19
Okay. Good20 afternoon. My name is Evette Gringrow.21 I was happy when I found my new22 home for myself and my three children23 through the real estate office of24 Caldwell Banker. The happiness turned to25 189 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 anxiety and concern when I found out from2 my doctor that my five-year-old son's3 blood lead level had risen unexpectedly.4 The inspectors came to my home and5 confirmed the presence of exposed lead6 paint.7 Now my son not doing well in8 school. He has been diagnosed with9 attention deficit disorder.10 I didn't notice the peeling11 paint when I moved in. If I had known my12 home had hidden dangers, I would have13 never moved in.14 I'm asking that you please pass15 this law so that other families do not16 have to suffer the way my family has17 suffered.18 And I wanted to speak about the19 landlords and the owners that came before20 us. They talked about the price of21 repairing and restoring their properties22 for the rental properties. How do -- how23 do I put a price in trying to repair my24 child's life? There's no comparison.25 190 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 This bill will give us a chance2 for some security, for some3 acknowledgment, saying that I'm moving4 into a home that's lead-free. That's all5 that we're asking.6 If there's hidden dangers in a7 home, if we have a hole in the ceiling,8 they'll say, You can't move in until we9 repair the hole in the ceiling because it10 may cave in. If it's hidden dangers in11 the wiring, they wouldn't let us move in12 until they repaired wiring because they13 wouldn't want to be sued for faulty14 wiring electrical fires.15 All I'm asking is that if16 there's that kind of danger in a home,17 why shouldn't we be aware of it?18 Had I would have known there19 was no smaller children living in this20 home and it was never inspected for lead,21 with the knowledge that I have, I would22 have asked, had I would have known to23 inquire about lead being in the home.24 If the land -- if I would have25 191 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 went to the property where I was renting2 from and someone would have informed me3 with a pamphlet, these are some of the4 questions that you may want to ask before5 you move in about lead, I would have6 asked.7 Not all property owners are so8 forthcoming with the news of lead,9 because it's just not acceptable. It's10 unacceptable.11 My child is only five years12 old, when he was diagnosed with lead at13 three, and he's well into repeated high14 lead levels. He doesn't have a voice to15 come in here and say, "Mommy, don't move16 into this home 'cause there might be17 lead" or "Did you ask?"18 It's my job to come down here19 and to ask that this bill be passed so20 that other families won't have to go21 through what I'm going through.22 Yes, there should be a bill23 that says that this home has been checked24 for lead, or more pamphlets being given25 192 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 out. They should be required to do2 something before a family moves into a3 home without them unaware of the4 knowledge of lead.5 Thanks for hearing me out.6
Thank you7 for your testimony and for sharing your8 powerful example of the worst that can9 happen. Your testimony has offered a10 third party that has been unacknowledged,11 at least by me, and that is the real12 estate broker.13 Who was the real estate broker14 in this instance?15
Councilwoman, if I25 193 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 could add to that. Like I said, we see2 thousands of tenants and we very3 rarely -- I'm not sure if we ever saw a4 tenant who received a pamphlet that5 they're supposed to get. I'm sure some6 landlords do, I'm sure HAPCO educational7 (indiscernible) do, but it's not8 happening on a regular basis. And I9 think the real estate agents and others10 fail to notify tenants what the risks11 are.12
So it's not about14 new laws that are creating new burdens on15 the part of landlords in terms of doing16 remediation. This is about making sure17 that the existing laws get enforced by18 identifying problems early enough to do19 something about it before a child gets20 sick. So we're not trying to increase21 the burdens on landlords at all.22 And I -- and we deal with a lot23 of -- HAPCO does and we deal with a lot24 of landlords who really care about the25 194 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 quality of properties and about making2 sure their services to tenants are3 adequate, and they rent properties that4 are safe and decent, and they rent5 properties that don't have lead problems.6 And I don't think it's a market7 shifting idea to say your property should8 not have lead and should be able to be9 inspected and not have thousands and10 thousands of dollars of remediation as a11 trigger for that.12 If remediation needs to be13 done, it has to be done. I mean, this14 law doesn't require that it has to be15 done; it requires that we know about it16 so we can make sure it does get done.17
In18 instances where TURN has become aware of19 families that have been badly impacted by20 this, what then are the subsequent next21 steps?22 We've heard what happens from23 the medical side, I think, but what24 interface happens with HAPCO about this25 195 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 particular landlord who clearly is in2 violation?3
Well, there's -- I4 hate to say this, but there's very little5 that can be done.6 I mean, there used to be a time7 when there was a serious capacity for8 litigation around this issue. There were9 attorneys in the City who would sue a10 landlord for having lead; that doesn't11 happen anymore.12 And the costs of that kind of13 litigation are prohibited; the expert14 witnesses, the law is fuzzy. It's very15 difficult to deal with this once the16 problem has happened.17 What we do in our office is to18 try to get landlords to do their job. So19 we do get them about L&I, we do threaten,20 you know, various remedies that a tenant21 has like rent withholding and rent22 abatement and that kind of thing.23 But the problem is, in all24 these situations, the child's already25 196 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 been poisoned.2