There was a6 process. In preparing the bill, it seems7 to me before a bill is prepared and8 submitted, that's the time to hear9 testimony on the topic, to help you10 formulate even the initial thing11 properly, because once you've got it12 started, in a certain sense, and I'll say13 "you," but I don't mean you personally --14
-- you frame the16 debate.17 We have this bill that's been18 written that we're all addressing --19
-- rather than21 starting from scratch and saying there's22 a lead paint problem, what are we going23 to do about it? and work up from there.24 Instead of -- my guess is that25 279 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 people came to you and said, "There's a2 lead paint problem, and here's how we3 think we can solve it," but that was only4 one segment of the community that said5 that.6 I can guess who it was but7 let's not -- and I respect them.8
Well, my9 comment or response to that is: The10 beauty of this process is that no matter11 where we start, if we want to move to12 achieving anything, it really is going to13 take the collective thinking of all14 sides.15 Now, I don't know of too many16 bills, that a bill, the way it was17 introduced is the way it finishes on the18 back-end, because we have 17 uniquely19 different professionals here, sitting in20 Council, who all come with a perspective.21 And ultimately, it takes nine.22 So have some comfort in knowing23 that, again, you've given rich evidence24 about what's happening in all cities that25 280 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 I think we need to look at, because2 seldom do we work in a vacuum where we3 start is where we end up.4
Well, that's5 fine. That is the way the process works6 and should work. And if it works that7 way, we can all live with it.8
And so, my9 only final comment would be that we also10 believe in dwelling in the realm of11 possibility on this end.12 And I say that with13 tongue-in-cheek in response to your14 comment about anything being impossible,15 'cause we really don't think that way.16 We're always looking to see how we can17 make things better and different for the18 constituency we're trying to serve.19
Well, that's20 good. And you commented, in fact, that21 somebody else -- we're looking for common22 ground, and we are.23 And I'll close by quoting24 Voltaire from 1764, who said, "The25 281 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 perfect is the enemy of the good." And I2 don't mean Councilman Goode.3 (Laughter.)4
And that5 is a perfect segué to hear from6 Councilman Goode.7
Thank you.8 At the risk of getting a9 lengthy response to this question, I10 listened to all of what you said, and you11 presented a variety of arguments. In12 fact, you presented so many arguments13 that, inevitably, some of them have to be14 contradictory.15 You started by saying this16 legislation, if enacted, would be the end17 of the world.18 You then went on to talk about19 other places like Boston and Baltimore,20 where legislation was enacted, and said21 it had no impact.22 You then went on to talk about23 other cities where there were programs24 that were put in place that were helpful.25 282 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 And then, lastly, you said that2 we should have gotten input before a bill3 was introduced.4 So my simple question is: Do5 you think this is something that should6 be legislated at the local level? And7 what exactly, in a very brief response,8 do you think should happen?9
Well, I'm hoping13 that you will go back and weigh the14 testimony from both sides.15
My solution,22 frankly, would be to abandon this bill23 altogether because I don't think that24 adding a few words, no matter how well25 283 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 chosen, to the City Code --2
So you spent7 all that time to say that your input,8 before the bill was crafted, would be not9 to the craft the bill.10 Thank you.11
Well, the bill12 has been crafted. And so, we've got to13 live with that. I would like to see that14 before a bill is crafted that --15
That you get16 a chance to say that it shouldn't be17 crafted.18
That you get20 a chance to say that it should not be21 crafted.22
Well, I'm saying,23 in fact, in a case like this, I would say24 that the bill should not have been25 284 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 crafted, that other approaches could have2 been taken.3 And, for example, City Council4 could have acknowledged the fact that5 they've made terrific progress by doing6 such-and-such; namely, this stepped up7 investigation -- this stepped up testing8 by the Health Department and the Lead9 Court. And then said, If we're going to10 address the problems --11
There's no12 need for us to belabor this. At the end13 of the day, we ask simple questions to a14 number of people on a variety of issues15 when we get to something that is16 considered to be controversial.17 At the end of the day, it comes18 down to whether you think something19 should be amended or you think it20 shouldn't be legislated at all.21 If you believe it's something22 that should not be legislated on at all,23 then there's nothing to discuss.24
Well, I mean,25 285 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 what I would like to see would be a --2 some sort of a commission or a task force3 to --4
Should there8 be a piece of legislation? Should9 something become local law?10
Should12 something become local law as a result of13 this?14
In this24 case, should there be a new local law?25 286 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
Any8 questions, Councilwoman Sanchez?9 Well, then let's move to our10 last witness, Justin Moore.11
Thank you for the18 opportunity to testify on this bill.19 I'll be brief since I'm the last person.20 I wanted to speak based on my21 personal experience on doing real-estate22 business in the City of Philadelphia and23 lead remediation.24 I think one of the things, when25 287 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 these debates on housing arise, is that2 landlords do have a lot of money and are3 rolling in the dough and are hoping for4 profit at the expense of their tenants.5 I'm 29 years old. I'm a6 small-business owner, and I don't have7 hundreds of units, and I don't have8 millions of dollars. And, frankly, if I9 was even supportive of the bill, I10 couldn't afford it.11 My company, New City Investment12 Solutions, is actually one of the 2513 qualified developers through the14 Neighborhood Transformation Initiative.15
Okay. You16 said that much too quickly, that last17 statement.18
My company is one19 of the 25 qualified developers, NSP20 programs, neighborhood stabilization21 programs with the RDA.22
11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 10 Like you send out the guy, he charges you11 $500. And then, in return, he gives you12 a scope of work; this is where he finds13 lead hazards, this is where he finds lead14 dust. 21 I did a -- the first deal I did22 with the (indiscernible) was a full-gut23 rehab. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 part of the NSP procedure. 13 That increased my cost by about $200. 17 He came back. I did the full18 rehab test and cleaned, got my19 certification. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Now, this was in a vacant,2 completely rehabbed home. To try to have3 the circumstances be in a tenant-occupied4 property where there's children, there's5 family members, there's all a bunch of6 personal property in and out of the7 house, I'm not sure you could even get8 the property to the point where a lead9 inspector would be able to not find10 anything. 12 I rent mostly single-family13 homes, duplexes, like most people in the14 City of Philadelphia. 18 Giving that fact, if I have to19 spend almost $1200 in cleaning and20 testing, without the remediation itself,21 a year, that's five months of my profit22 literally out the window. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 21 And when you move someone in, you make22 sure that you do repaint the property;23 you do that for anyway just for24 marketability. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 the floors, you clean the rugs. 9 So they focus on areas like10 window sills, stairs, railings, and11 entryways. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 necessarily taking care of their property2 the right way. 5 So I think we can always6 continue to educate people, especially in7 the high-density areas of this issue,8 and, you know, make landlords aware that,9 you know, you need to touch up this area,10 you need to touch up this railing. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 13 So I really think that we14 should just reevaluate what we need to do15 to fix the problem. 17 And I do believe that where18 there's smoke, there's fire. 11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. 20
Mr. Moore,21 let me thank you for what I believe to be22 objective testimony in reiterating and23 underscoring the concerns raised by24 members of your industry as well as your25 296 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 view and perspective about the fragile2 legal circumstance that comes when you3 rent to just children with families, and4 that the Law Department has gotten back5 to me to affirm that that would be the6 case.7 So thank you very much for your8 testimony, and thank you for just showing9 up here today.10
Anyone12 else to offer testimony on Bill No.13 100011?14 (No response.)15
Anyone?16 Shelly Yanoff.17 (Witness comes forward.)18
My name's Stan23 Daniel. I had testified earlier.24 I mentioned my sister-in-law25 297 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 who is having trouble renting an2 apartment for $1500 a month. And I said3 it was in a city that has similar lead4 laws as we're trying to pass now. That5 city was Minneapolis, as Alan mentioned,6 one of the cities.7 So that's living proof of what8 happens to the rental market when we have9 a law of this type.10
Yes, we should12 address the lead problem, but not on the13 shoulders of landlords.14 Thank you.15
I'm Shelly Yanoff,20 Director of Public Citizens for Children21 and Youth.22 We've been working on the lead23 problem for twenty years. And we started24 when I was at City Council and I heard a25 298 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 nurse talk about every Friday -- she was2 at Jefferson Hospital every Friday.3 Mothers and fathers brought their4 children in who were just damaged for5 life.6 I thought it had been over. I7 thought that the lead problem had been8 solved because, you know, we've known --9 we had known for 80 years that lead10 poisoned, and we didn't do it. We always11 found some reason: It always cost too12 much, it always was too complicated. So13 we would just watch our kids get dumber14 and dumber.15 You've heard a lot of really16 good testimony here today, and there are17 many different sides of it. But somehow,18 I couldn't let the end be only on what's19 too much of a problem and too expensive,20 'cause there is really little that you21 can do to take care of a child who's been22 seriously lead-poisoned.23 As several of you have done24 some teaching, you try to talk to a25 299 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 child -- I tutored a child who had been2 lead-poisoned. It was like a wall was in3 front of his head; you couldn't get there4 easily.5 It's really very, very6 difficult. This is a very difficult7 problem we all face. And together, I8 hope we can solve it and do more.9 But there are too many children10 who have been told that it's just too11 expensive, it's just too cumbersome, it's12 too much of a problem. You will just13 have to wait.14 Thank you.15
Thank you16 very much.17 Anyone else here to testify on18 Bill No. 100011?19 (No response.)20
Let me21 invite back to the table Nan -- please22 pronounce your last name for me.23
Thank you.25 300 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Mr. Zaslow, did he leave?2 George Gould? Anyone from the3 Association? Please.4 (Witnesses return to witness5 table.)6
Christine7 Young Gertz.8 And to Shelly's last statement,9 I need to know, has there ever been any10 opportunity where all sides have sat down11 at the table to acknowledge what you've12 plainly stated and to look to see how we13 make any bill a better bill collectively?14
I think there have15 been efforts on and off. I think one of16 the things we didn't talk about was when17 the City, in the last decade, brought all18 parts together, people said Lead Court19 wouldn't matter. People really talked20 about that this is just a little bit of a21 problem.22 When Congressman Fattah called23 a bunch of us down and we talked with24 other cities what we could do, then we25 301 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 ended up getting more support.2
Yeah. And it5 seems to me that there is some good will6 around, and we just have to think about7 those kids and then how we can pull it8 off.9
Pull something off11 that doesn't seem unfair and that isn't12 unfair but that doesn't say the children13 can continue being permanently damaged14 while we wait.15
Christine16 Young Gertz, have you had an opportunity17 to sit down with those who care deeply18 about this issue on -- as either part of19 the industry or as part of the health-20 and-welfare-of-children community?21
Not as much as I'd22 like.23 Early on, we had, I believe, a24 couple of meetings at the Health25 302 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Department. And going forward, I would2 welcome that opportunity.3 I think that, well, good heads4 and good hearts come together. I think5 we can somehow come to the same page on6 it.7
So to8 Councilman Goode's question, which I9 thought was a necessary one, do you10 believe there should be any action,11 legislative action, taken around this12 issue?13
I want my testimony14 to stand regarding this bill; I don't15 think it's necessary.16 Is the issue closed? No. We17 have kids out there that the Health18 Department's obviously helping, or trying19 to help.20 So is there room for more21 dialogue? Yes, there's always room for22 more dialogue.23
Okay.24 Then I'm confused. You say there's room25 303 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 for dialogue but you also think the bill2 is unnecessary.3
I do. I think this4 bill in its present form is unnecessary,5 but I'm willing to go forward and talk6 some more about the problem and about7 realistically where to go from there.8
So are you9 prepared to participate in dialogue and10 discussions that move to make this a11 better bill?12
I'd like to start13 from scratch, to be perfectly honest with14 you.15
So that20 we're clear, you're prepared to21 participate in discussions and dialogue22 that move to make this bill a better23 bill, that factors in -- 'cause there are24 arguably some legitimate concerns raised25 304 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 on both sides that I think we need to2 further examine and hear each other.3
And remain5 stuck in the mud about our particular6 position.7 So that is my question. Are8 you or Mr. Zaslow, who you certainly9 can't speak for, able or willing to sit10 at the table so that we move to make this11 bill a better bill?12
Yes, we are willing13 to sit at the table. I can't speak for14 Darryl, but --15
I'd just like to22 make a quick comment. I think the bill23 is a critical bill and extremely24 important.25 305 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 As I said before, we have a2 system that uses the child to determine3 whether or not there is lead in the4 property. And I think in 2011, that's5 wrong.6 And for any disease, especially7 a disease of childhood lead poisoning, we8 should not be using children to determine9 whether or not a property is bad. We10 need to do that upfront, we need to do11 that before the property is leased.12 This bill is a major step13 forward. I, quite frankly, have not14 heard from landlords except that it's too15 expensive, the world's going to end,you16 know, housing is going to end in17 Philadelphia.18 I have not heard a solution and19 some mechanism that would ensure when a20 child moves into a property, in fact,21 that property is lead-safe, and they're22 not going to get poisoned.23 And we are certainly prepared24 to sit down and talk about making the25 306 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 bill better, but we need a bill, and I2 think we need it very quickly.3
Anyone4 else to comment before the Chair resumes5 her place here?6 (No response.)7 (Committee members confer off8 the record.)9
The ask10 for me, as sponsor of this bill, is to do11 what I've done in the past that proved to12 me to be very fruitful in terms of13 getting a major piece of legislation14 passed, and that is to bring all sides at15 the table together, with me, which has16 not happened in the past. I've met with17 both worlds separately as well as my18 staff and to make a commitment from all19 sectors of this issue to...20 (Committee members confer off21 the record).22
So, making23 sure I'm in compliance with protocols up24 here, I'm asking that Miss Gertz;25 307 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 Mr. Zaslow, who will call; Shelly Yanoff;2 and/or George Gould; and Nan Feyler will3 meet with me this month, okay?4 Because there's a lot of5 testimony up here. I'm sorry, but I have6 to reread it all.7 And then to meet again in8 September, with the clear understanding9 that we're going to move the bill out of10 committee -- I need to make that11 exceedingly clear, and I wish Mr. Zaslow12 was here to hear that from my mouth to13 his ears.14 We're going to move the bill15 out of committee. And then I have work16 to do with regards to shoring up support,17 not only short-term but long-term.18 So I just need to make that19 exceedingly clear that I am not of the20 posture of Mr. Krigman, who believes we21 should leave things as they are.22 Okay. Madam Chair?23 (Committee members confer been24 off the record).25 308 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
So are we2 clear in what I'm asking for? Hello?3 PANEL MEMBERS: Yes.4
Okay. And5 there is some acceptance on your side of6 the table that you're prepared to sit7 with me between mow and September 'cause8 I do plan to move the bill out of9 committee, but not today.10 Hello?11 PANEL MEMBERS: Yes.12
And I just13 need to know that because then I don't14 want to get to get into, Oh, I didn't15 know and, Oh, I wasn't available.16 And it doesn't have to be all17 of you, but certainly representatives of18 your world, so that we have both sides of19 the table represented.20
I was just going to21 ask the if that were possible.22 And you mentioned this month,23 which is the month of June.24
That in particular,2 for instance, I have a week-long3 commitment to be away next week.4
It doesn't5 have to be you, but we could certainly6 ask Mr. Zaslow or Mr. Pinckney or7 Mr. Lindy --8
But it11 would be imperative that get all sides of12 this issue at the table. That's the only13 way we're going to get some real movement14 here.15 I don't want to come back and16 move and we haven't given everyone an17 opportunity to sit face-to-face.18 Miss Yanoff?19
I want to thank20 you again for your leadership on this.21 I also want to note that there22 has been no improvement with this issue23 particularly without there being24 mandates, without there being law25 310 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111 changes. So it doesn't happen from good2 will.3
Well4 taken. All right, then. Thank you very5 much.6 So Kathy Gilmore will speak7 with all of you.8 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO:9 Councilwoman, I just want to say, for10 sure, there's always the mandate, but11 what we like to do is what you're doing,12 all the parties to sit together and to13 talk about what you've heard today.14 This is the first public15 hearing on this piece of legislation,16 that the homeowners and the Realtors have17 their position, you have your position.18 There could be at some point a coming19 together to find a solution.20 And so, having that dialogue is21 important. We've done that before on22 other issues. And at the end of the day,23 after everybody has had their say, the24 Council will have its way.25 311 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
And if I may,2 perhaps this could be a role of the3 Department of Health.4 I think there were several5 conflicting statements about what is6 lead-safe, what is the impact of removing7 paint, what is the level of lead blood8 poisoning that causes harm, can cleaning9 make a difference.10 So with your permission, we11 could put together, with citations, a12 sort of scientific kind of paper.13
And the data so15 that, hopefully, we'll all be on the same16 page.17
That's one18 example that goes to why I think we have19 to do just that, because there's20 conflicting testimony all over the place.21 And uniform testimony helps as we seek to22 secure support on a bill.23 Thank you.24 Thank you, Madam Chair.25 312 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. - BILL 1000111
Thank you.6 * * *7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 313 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. PUBLIC MEETING1
The Chair2 recognizes Councilwoman Brown for the3 amendment to Bill -- we closed the public4 hearing, and we're going into the public5 meeting.6 The Chair recognizes7 Councilwoman Brown to submit the8 amendment to Bill No. 100346.9
Madam10 Chair, I make a motion to amend Bill No.11 110346.12 (Motion duly seconded.)13
The14 amendment has been circulated. It has15 been moved and seconded that we amend16 Bill No. 110346.17 All in favor will say aye.18 There being no opposition, the19 motion is carried.20 The Chair recognizes21 Councilwoman Brown to vote out Bill No.22 110346, as amended.23
Yes, Madam24 Chair. I move that Bill No. 110346, as25 314 6.13.11 HEALTH/HUMAN SVCS. PUBLIC MEETING1 amended, be reported out of committee2 with a favorable recommendation, and3 further move that rules of Council be4 suspended so as to permit first reading.5 (Motion duly seconded.)6
It has7 been moved and seconded that Bill No.8 110346, as amended, be reported out of9 committee with a favorable recommendation10 and that the rules of Council be11 suspended so that this bill can be heard12 at Council Committee's next session.13 All in favor will say aye.14 All right. The motion's15 carried.16 The committee will retain Bill17 No. 100011... Bill No. 100011, the18 lead-paint disclosure ordinance, will19 remain in committee.20 And this committee will stand21 in recess until the call of the Chair.22 (Proceedings end at 3:10 p.m.)23 * * *24 25 315 C E R T I F I C A T E1 2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the3 proceedings of the City of Philadelphia4 Council Committee on Public Health and Human5 Services Committee are contained fully and6 accurately in the stenographic notes taken by7 me on Monday, June 13, 2011, and that this is8 a true and correct statement of same.9 10 11 12 _________________________________ 13 JOSEPHINE CARDILLO Registered Professional Reporter14 15 16 17 18 19 (The foregoing certification of20 this transcript does not apply to any21 reproduction of the same by any means, unless22 under the direct control and/or supervision of23 the certifying reporter.)24