COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON HOUSING, NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT AND THE HOMELESS City Hall, Room 400 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, June 3, 2025 1:00 p.m. PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT KENYATTA JOHNSON COUNCILWOMAN KENDRA BROOKS COUNCILWOMAN JAMIE GAUTHIER COUNCILWOMAN KATHERINE GILMORE-RICHARDSON COUNCILWOMAN QUETCY M. LOZADA COUNCILWOMAN CINDY BASS COUNCILMAN MICHAEL DRISCOLL COUNCILMAN CURTIS J. JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN NICOLAS O'ROURKE COUNCILMAN JEFFREY J. YOUNG, JR. COUNCILMAN ANTHONY PHILLIPS MS. JONES, CLERK P R O C E E D I N G CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good afternoon, everyone. I now note that the hour has come and this hearing is called to order. This is a public hearing of the City Council Committee on Housing, Neighborhood Development and The Homeless. The purpose of this public hearing is to hear testimony on Bill Nos. 250329, 250330 and 250331. Ms. Jones, would you please call the roll?
Chair Gauthier CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Present. Thank you, Ms. Jones. Joining us also is Minority Whip Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke. All right. All right. All right. Let's get started. We all love Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke. Let's -- but let's move this process along. I note for the record that a quorum of this committee is present and this hearing is called to order. Good afternoon. It is wonderful, truly wonderful to see so many people here in this chamber. Thank you for getting involved with your local government. As a renter myself, I know how important it is to make sure every renter in the city of Philadelphia has access to affordable, stable and safe housing. We are not here talking about would be nices or cherries on top, but we are talking about fundamentals, things that frankly should be the basic necessity that anyone who pays to live somewhere should be guaranteed. If you do not have a safe home, nothing else matters. We know this. So when we talk about our affordable housing crisis, we cannot forget about the tens of thousands of Philadelphians who are living in units with a leaky roof, with raccoons and possums scurrying across the roof with appliances that only work half the time. Of course, we need to build, but 40 percent of rental properties in our city are in need of repair, and we will never solve our affordable housing crisis without bringing these homes back into good condition. I applaud Minority Whip Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke for coming up with a legislative package that rewards landlords who comply with the local law and do well by doing good while holding negligent landlords accountable. Government's No. 1 priority is to keep people safe, and this is what today's hearing is about. Do any of the committee members have opening comments? VICE CHAIR LANDAU: I just wanted to say -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Vice Chair Landau. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Good afternoon, everybody. I just wanted to also just lend my voice to what we're talking about at being an incredibly important issue of making sure that people have safe and healthy homes to live in. There is -- as someone who used to run the City's Fair Housing Commission, and as a former tenant lawyer, I saw time and time again of people living in very, very poor conditions that needed repairs. And this -- this package of bills is our first step, a big step, a leap towards getting ourselves to a place where everybody can feel safe and healthy in their home. And we also -- as we've been focusing a lot on the cost of moving lately, it is essential that if people can stay in the homes they're in now, let's do that because moving, sure, costs a lot, and we want people to be able to stay in their communities, become a part of the neighborhood, a part of the fabric of the communities, let's do everything we can to make sure that we -- that people are safe and healthy in their homes. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. Councilmember Jones.
So I love Nicolas O'Rourke, too, and I'm not ashamed to say it. It was Nicolas O'Rourke among other members that accompanied me, along with Driscoll, along with Landau up to a place called Brith Sholom. We toured that facility and saw how people lived, many of whom are in protected classes such as veterans, people with disabilities, people who were seniors that were living the fourth quarter of their life in horrid conditions. What is important to me is that even though there were laws on the books, there was no enforcement. That people got fined and that insidious owners ignored those fines and said that we'll take out loans, take the value out of the property, and let people figure it out. These packages are an answer to a lot of that. And so therefore, with some work on the details, we are going to figure this out on behalf of the people. So thank you, Nick. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. And now we'll move to our bill sponsor, Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke for work for any opening comments.
Good afternoon, Chair Gauthier, Vice Chair Landau, members of the housing committee, members of listening public. Actually, good afternoon. I come before you today with, if I'm honest, righteous conviction to fight for safe healthy homes in the city of Philadelphia, not by myself, not in isolation, not as an individual, but shoulder to shoulder with working class people, responsible landlords, union members, healthcare workers, faith leaders, all. Allow me to begin not just as a policy advocate and organizer, but also now as a father. My son, Augustine Leslie O'Rourke was born just last week. He is in the NICU. He is fighting for his health. And I should be with my family right now. I deserve to be with my family right now. But last night I was told something that stopped me in my tracks, that if I didn't come here to defend the Safe Healthy Homes Act, that these bills would not receive a vote. I was forced to make an impossible choice, but here I am, because I am not an individual; I am one of the people, because too many people have sacrificed already too much for us to give up on this now, because this movement is bigger than any individual, any one person, any one of us, and because I believe that safe, healthy homes are a human right and not a privilege. Listen, I know that I am not the only person who has made sacrifices to be here. The chambers reveal it as such, more than 70 members, 7-0 members of the public have signed up to testify in support of these bills: Tenants, landlords, union members, nurses, social workers, immigrants, faith leaders. That is an unprecedented number of people who have taken off work, who have arranged childcare of their own, who have coordinated transportation to be in this place and showed up to support these bills. I see you all. I'm grateful for you all. I'm empowered because of you all. I'm encouraged because of you all. I honor you all and I fight beside every single one of you. Due to time constraints -- due to time constraints, public comment has been limited. Not everyone who signed up will get to speak today. But make no mistake, the people are powerful and your needs are holy. And when the people speak with one voice, it is the voice of moral authority. Everybody from the mayor's office to public commenters has said it plainly, has said it clearly, has said it repeatedly, we are in the midst of a housing crisis. That we have profound power over a human need and that we must act. Not we should; we got to. Today, we'll hear painful truths. We'll hear stories of tenants living without heat, children sick from mold, elders climbing stairs in buildings with no 11 rails, with no lights. These are not isolated cases either. These aren't individual islands on themselves. These are symptoms of a broken system. We'll also hear from those opposing these bills that they're far too burdensome, that they're far too broad. I have one response to such claims. These bills simply will not apply to the vast majority of landlords. The policies laid out today are designed to address the most egregious cases of negligent property management as defined already by our city charter. It's already defined as such. It's addressing those persons. This is not anti-landlord legislation. This is anti-neglect legislation. This is anti-squalor legislation. This is pro-dignity legislation. We are not regulating the occasional L&I violation. We are confronting chronic willful disregard, disgraceful disregard for human life. So in closing, I'd like to thank the deeply committed homeowners, the tenants and organizers of Philly Thrive and OnePA Renters United Philadelphia for your willingness to fight -- to fight for yourselves, your willingness to fight for your neighbors, for sharing the essence of grassroots democracy with my team and with me. Your passion, your persistence, your power are the only way a democracy worth its name will persist. Thank you.
I thank the members of the committee that have taken their time to be present today. Let the records show the people are watching, the people are ready, and the people will not wait. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much, Councilmember. Thank you so much, Councilmember, for the passion and the conviction that you bring to this work. Ms. Jones, will you now read the title of the bills.
Bill No. 20 250329. An ordinance amending chapter 9-3900 of the Philadelphia Code entitled Property Licenses and Owner Accountability to clarify licensing requirements, authorize the department to create a proactive inspection program, require public reporting related to code compliance, and established remedies, damages and protections for tenants, all under certain terms and conditions. Bill No. 25033O. An ordinance amending chapter 9-800 of the Philadelphia Code entitled Landlord and Tenant to modify the requirements related to good cause for ending a tenancy, add protections against retaliation and harassment for tenants and tenant organizations, specify tenants' rights related to the implied warranty of habitability, and provide a legal presumption related to breaches of the implied warranty of habitability, create a tenant right to organize, specify deadlines for asserting claims, and establish and enhance enforcement mechanism, remedies, damages, and protections, all under certain terms and conditions. Bill No. 250331. An ordinance amending chapter 9-800 of the Philadelphia Code entitled Landlord and Tenant to hereby authorize the creation of an anti- displacement fund to establish violations for displacement and to authorize the Department of Planning and Development to administer the Anti-Displacement Fund and amending section 8-505, entitled Cease Operations Order to add notice requirements, all under certain terms and conditions. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. Will the clerk please call the first panel of witnesses to testify on the resolution? I am going to ask -- we have a very packed agenda today. I'm going to ask witnesses to summarize their testimony and be concise. We are setting a timer for four minutes for every witness. Please help me -- help me in order to move this hearing along. Ms. Jones?
On our first panel, we have Sarah Adamo, Randy Duque, John Mondlak. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony. I guess we can go with L&I first.
Do you have a preference of who goes first? CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: It doesn't matter. Go ahead.
Good afternoon, Chairperson Gauthier and members of the Housing, Neighborhood Development and the Homeless Committee. My name is Sarah Adamo and I am the Director of Zoning and Legislation for the Department of Licenses and Inspections Quality of Life. I'm here today to provide testimony on Bill No. 250329 introduced by Councilmember O'Rourke. As amended, this bill 12 proposes to create additional protections and notifications associated with tenant -- with tenants of properties that have rental licenses. The administration strongly supports the spirit of this bill and recognizes the importance of safe and healthy housing for Philadelphia residents. It is critical to encourage property owners to maintain their properties in a way that prevents the displacement of residents whenever possible. The administration does have concerns about this bill in its current form and believes that additional amendments and discussions are necessary to ensure the ordinance can be effectively enforced. Due to -- due to the tight timeline ahead of the hearing, we were unable to review the latest amendments received this morning as thoroughly as we would've preferred. Given that these changes will impact over 80,000 licenses and all renters in the city, we believe that it is critical that we review these changes thoroughly to ensure that there are no unintended consequences and the department is able to actualize the changes. E. Initiative is currently -- is under current consideration by City Council, we have committed to increasing the housing stock, especially affordable housing across the city. We believe that as written, there are potentially several unintended consequences that could reduce our affordable housing stock in our city, driving good acting landlords out of the market and increasing the number of rentals who will operate without a rental license. We have worked with Council over the years to streamline the rental renewal process and as the bill stands, it will have the opposite effect of what City Council has recommended. We are committed to working with Council to address these concerns and to help advance this and future legislation so that we can achieve the bill's intended goals. To highlight a few of the administration's concerns -- and please note these are based on the version of the bill that was sent to us yesterday, so it may not be a hundred percent accurate to the most recent amendment. Much of the bill 10 that's currently written would be impossible for the department to operationalize. Most notably 9-39014D, which requires the department to provide notice to tenants when a rental license is suspended or not renewed after 30 days. We recognize that this is a key component. This provision is a key component to the legislation and respectfully urge Council to allow time for us to develop a practical and implementable solution. The bill also requires that during application for a new or renewed rental license, an applicant's self-report that certain habitability standards are met. This application modification would require change to eCLIPSE, which could not -- could not be effective immediately. The application change would not take place until after the WebUI project is completed and would need to be added to a queue of changes. Furthermore, due to the volume of licenses that are impacted, any change that impacts rental license renewals needs to be carefully considered to minimize delays and confusion for license holders. There are several technical amendments and potential conflicts that have been flagged by L&I and law that needs to be addressed. And lastly, the implementation date would not be able to be met as there are several regulatory changes that need to be developed and implemented. As previously mentioned, we also need to make several updates to eCLIPSE, which would not be able to be done until 2027.
Considering the potential significant impacts on renters and the city resources required to achieve the goals of this legislation, we believe that further amendments are necessary to develop effective legislation. We respectfully request that this bill be held, so that we can continue working through these concerns and ensure the legislation functions as intended. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on behalf of the Department of Licenses and Inspections Quality of Life. I'm happy to answer any questions at this time. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you for your testimony. Whomever wants to go next, please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Chairperson Gauthier, and members of the Committee on Housing and Neighborhood Development and the Homeless. My name is John Mondlak and I serve as the first deputy and chief of staff in the Department of Planning and Development, and I'm here to testify on Bill 250331 introduced by Councilmember O'Rourke. Bill 250331 would allow the creation of an anti-displacement fund for residential tenants who cannot stay in their homes because the building they live in has been closed down due to cease operations order. And we appreciate that this bill recognizes the very thorny problem in code enforcement. While it's common to call for stricter code enforcement on rental properties, few acknowledge that stricter code enforcement may require the rental property to be ceased and that when residential properties are ceased, tenants lose their homes. In addition, we welcome the amendment -- the amendment to Bill 20 250331, clarifying that the city is to provide notice to tenants 10 days in advance of executing a cease operations order unless doing so would endanger the tenant's health and safety. Today, a cease operations order in a landlord tenant context is issued as a penalty of last resort. Typically, cease violation orders are issued only when the landlord has been cited repeatedly for significant violations of the city code provision that govern the standards of safety and functionality for the rental properties and has failed to remedy these violations. Under Bill 250331, a cease operations order executed against the landlord property would no 18 longer just be a penalty. For the first time it would be a separate violation in and of itself. The administration's understanding is that the rationale for creating a cease operations violation is a mechanism to force bad landlords to pay for the harm they have caused. The dollars would presumably go into an anti- displacement fund. Having bad landlords pay into the fund is just unfair. Given the length and complexity of code enforcement process, however, we're concerned about the efficacy of using violations as a source of revenue. We are also concerned about the unintended effects creating a new violation it could have on the city's small landlords. Cease operation orders causing tenants to be relocated can be caused by circumstances well beyond the control of a landlord, such as a water main breach, breach of fire, a natural disaster or construction on an adjacent property. Being subject to a violation, actually, a separate violation for each displaced resident just as their properties are being damaged through no fault of their own could be a disincentive to operate rental housing. The amendment to the bill respect -- that was circulated a couple days ago, specifies a cease operation order only occurs when the property is ceased due to the owner's negligent or fault in helping with this regard. However, it may not be enough to retain landlords who are contemplating dropping out of the rental market and some may prefer to avoid the risk of being judged inaccurately as negligent or at fault. Given the shortage of affordable housing in Philadelphia, we are concerned about any potential loss of rental units from good landlords. The Mayor is committed to a bold, historic and unprecedented vision to build, preserve, and restore 30,000 units of housing in Philadelphia. And in order to ensure that we meet this goal, we need to avoid reducing our housing stock and decreasing the number of affordable units as good acting landlords exist in the market. We appreciate the opportunity to testify today and respectfully requesting that this bill be held in committee to work through the concerns and we're happy to answer any questions you may have. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much.
Good afternoon, Chairperson Gauthier and Members of the Committee on Housing, Neighborhood Development and the Homeless. My name is Randy Duque. I am the acting executive director of the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations and Fair Housing Commission. I'm here to testify on Bill No. 250330 introduced by Councilmember O'Rourke. The Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations or PCHR is the city's official civil rights and peacemaking agency. We enforce an important set of laws that prevent discrimination and promote equality. Within the PCHR is a separate commission that works to ensure renters have safe places to live and decent living conditions while landlords abide by landlord tenant laws through the enforcement of the city's fair housing ordinance. This commission is known as the Fair Housing Commission. The Fair Housing Commission or FHC is comprised of five members who are appointed by the mayor and serve as volunteers on a weekly basis. The commissioners conduct hearings to decide complaints and investigate unfair rental practices in properties. The FHC's work is supported by a small team of city staff, and together they process over 500 cases annually. As introduced, Bill 250330 aims to expand residential renter protections by preventing landlords from retaliating or refusing or to renew or lease to a tenant without good cause and adding tenant harassment and tentative collective actions expansions that apply to renters' rights in general. While we appreciate the spirit of the legislation as introduced -- as introduced, the legislation raises several concerns that we believe will negatively impact the good acting housing providers across the city at a time that the administration's committed to addressing the housing crisis facing our city through Mayor Parker's Home Initiative. Several sections of this legislation leave definitions and interpretations too ambiguous, making the intent unclear through phrases such as timely manner, reasonable notice, or an abuse of government process, which due to vagueness will make almost every landlord-tenant issue disputable such as a repair taking longer than expected. This legislation also creates duplicative requirements of already existing laws leading to confusion, not only for housing providers but for attorneys, judges and our commission to interpret. This would lead directly to the Fair Housing Commission to be overloaded with cases due to the significant increases of potential violations by a housing provider that would seriously strain our capacity. For instance, extending a good cause to any lease alone would significantly expand the eligibility of those who can file with Fair Housing Commission under this provision where such cases, typically, are handled in municipal court. Furthermore, adding the tenant harassment section to the Fair Housing ordinance massively broadens this type of violations heard by the FHC as practically any landlord-tenant dispute would fall into one of the provisions in the section, effectively making us a de facto in municipal court. There is also potential for provisions in this bill to be misused, for example, while we agree with the importance of for tenants to have the right to organize as listed in section 9814, it would prohibit a landlord from taking any action if another tenant complains if they feel they are being harassed by organizers or unsafe because a non-resident is knocking on their door. Finally, some of the provisions are currently in the Fair Housing ordinance such as the provision under tenant harassment on retaliation -- retaliating against, threatening or interfering with tenants or tenant organizers 90413K, which is already covered under section 98042 on retaliation.
We appreciate some of the most recent additions to this bill, such as adding Section 980415D to give the Fair Housing Commission permissive jurisdiction, but still see a potential strain on the services as they are benefits for a tenant to file with us, such as no 9 cost service and not needing a lawyer to fully participate in our processes. We respect -- we respectfully request that this legislation be held in committee to address these concerns to ensure we are achieving the goals of this legislation without negatively impacting those good acting housing providers desperately needed across our city. And I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thanks to all of you for your testimony, but more importantly, for the work that you do on behalf of the city every day. I'm going to -- wait a minute. I'm going to recognize members first. I'm going to -- we have to get through the hearing folks. We have to get through the hearing. I'm going to take a card from -- I'm going to take a card from our Council President's book. I'm going to ask that we minimize booing towards testimony. I'm going to ask that we keep the noise level down in chambers because that's how we'll get through this hearing, right? And, you know, you all are here for the legislative process and they're going to -- you're -- you showed up in mass to show your support, and that's a strong statement. But people are going to say things that you like and they're going to say things that you don't like and that's how we get through it at the end of the day. So thank you very much. I want to note, for the record, the presence of Councilmember Mark Squilla and Deputy Majority Whip Councilmember Cindy Bass. Thank you for joining us, both of you. I want to start with a question for the panel and then I'll open to members and then the bill 16 sponsor. So I understand, you know, all of what you all kind of addressed your concerns around capacity and, sort of, the administrative functions that you would have to expand in order to carry these bills forward, and that you're asking for more time to work on language and amendments. But I do want to just note that we are embarking upon a historic investment in housing and building and preserving affordable housing. I, for one, and I know I'm not alone in Council, I'm cheering for the mayor to get that full $800 million. I think it's amazing that this is her number one priority. But I think we have to admit that what minority Whip O'Rourke is bringing to the floor is a timely conversation. We're not going to be able to get to 30,000 units if we don't make sure our existing housing is in good shape. So for L&I, I know that the Councilmember has tried to propose an increase in your funding in order -- and to acknowledge that you would have to greatly expand your capacity. So for L&I, I want you to talk about how the million in propose L&I funding that's a part of this campaign could help with those capacity concerns that you listed. And then for the other two departments, I hear your concerns, but I'm hopeful that this will be a conversation that's not just about no, given the importance of everything that the Councilmember is trying to do and that this can instead be a conversation that is about getting to, yes. So I'd like for you to follow up -- I'd like for you to follow up your concerns with your thoughts on how we can get those concerns addressed in concert with the Councilmember. So we could start with L&I.
Good afternoon, committee members. My name is Bridget Collins-Greenwald. I'm the commissioner of the L&I Licenses and Inspections Quality of Life department. Good afternoon. So I think the question was -- I was walking up and I heard it. I think the question was the $10 million figure that's been thrown around. So what L&I proposes to do -- and we have been working with the councilman's office on this and various other offices on this -- is to develop a proactive inspection program. As I stated during our budget hearing, we're in the preliminary process of that. We're looking at all different kinds of things -- ways to make that happen: incentivizing good landlords, doing proactive inspections on new licenses, giving -- doing virtual inspections, which we just launched two days ago, so we're going to see how that works out. So we have a number of various things that are going to go along with this pro action proactive inspection program. So the 8 million that is proposed, we've said 9 we're not really sure where that 10 number comes from because we haven't even put the plan together yet. So what we do plan to do is come up with a number that we say, hey, if this is what we're going to do, here's the full-fledged program, proactive inspection program, and here's what it'll cost and here's what it'll look like and here's the measures we'll have and here's what we plan to get on. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: And I would love for you to talk about timeline. Because this is -- this is not just a philosophical conversation. This is life and death. Like, I've had people die in my district because of the condition of their property. So I'd love to hear you talk -- I would love to hear you give some more specificity around your timeline in doing these things that I know that you know are necessary.
So our timeline is, as some of you are aware, we're waiting on a research project to be completed, which will not be completed for a few months. We are working internally on putting something together. So while I don't have -- I'm going to give a ballpark figure. I think we could have a plan together within the next several months, by the end of the summer, which I believe is why we've asked for this to be held so we can work through those details which we've all acknowledged that the devil's in the details, right? So I think we could get something together by the end of the summer. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. Thank you for your transparency around that. And then I'd love Planning and Development Human Relations, if you could just -- you know, you listed the concerns, but I want to hear you talk about how we get there with such an important effort and what the timing around that is and what you need to get there.
For us, a lot of it is like just trying to make sure that the -- this bill and these laws are airtight so that when people do have problems, there's no 23 extended litigation, no extended investigation. Because you're right, like, we -- like, people need remedy immediately. And as it stands now, like, the problem is like -- because it could be opened up to interpretation, it can go -- like, a case can go on for a longer amount of time than intended. So it's not really -- we're not against it. We just -- we want to make sure it's tighter. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Do you have a sense of what you need from a resource perspective?
With that, I mean, our Fair Housing Commission, as you heard, there's only five full-time staff and then we have volunteer commissioners. So capacity-wise, like, we would -- like, we would need to essentially expand the Fair Housing Commission in itself. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
I would just add that from Planning and Development, I don't -- I wouldn't say that there's a capacity issue. I think that as a lot of people know, we don't manage the temporary housing closely. That's Office of Emergency Management and Office of Homeless Services. So presumably -- but they -- presumably they would have the capacity to do that. For us, it's more about -- it's things like setting up the fund, the timing of it. If you have people that are displaced now because of maybe fault of the landlord, maybe not, they need resources now. And are we waiting around for somebody to get cited for something they did on their own fault, pay the citation, maybe there's a collection issue, maybe they fight it, maybe you don't get the money for six months. And so it's really about -- for me, it's what programs do OEM and OHS have that maybe aren't working, if that's the concern, because I separate the two and say, if people need help, let's sit down and figure out how to help them. And, yeah, separately, if there are bad landlords, let's make sure that they're paying for the damage that they're doing. But I don't -- it's the tying of -- together that I think creates the challenge and just the -- you know, creating of funds. Generally, the funding is done through the budgetary process and that's how the money flows. And if everybody just created funds for the things that were important to them, eventually that gets really challenging to manage the finances of it. So it's better to keep it altogether in the conversation of the budget. But I do think that if we don't have programs that help the people that need it, then we should make the programs or fix the programs and make sure they have the help that they need. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Well, we happen to be in the budget process. So from a resource perspective it's a timely moment. I'll open up for questions from members. I'll start with Councilmember Driscoll, and then Vice Chair Landau.
Well, thank you for your testimony. You know, I want to commend the maker of the bills. The spirit of the legislation is spot on. But we got to make sure this legislation is legal, enforceable, and of course you scared me with that 2027 number. But listen, today is -- to be honest, right, we're all here to try and get to the right spot. So I guess to get to Chair Guathier's concern, when there are these immediate before we can figure all this stuff out, including this year's budget which we are contemplating for the next couple weeks. What remedies are currently in place to make sure these life safety issues are addressed in a timely fashion?
So most of our inspections are done on a complaint basis. So when we receive complaints, they are prioritized according to what the complaint is. So something like no heat in the middle of winter, we're going to be out there immediately and make sure that, you know, the more egregious violations are addressed immediately. So that's L&I's role in that. And then when we come to the cases where people are displaced, that's when L&I is not necessarily involved in that process as much. And I don't know if either of you want -- have anything to -- but L&I's role is essentially a complaint based process of responding to violations.
But what happens when Member Jones, you know, brought us out to Brith Sholom and there were these registered complaints and there were life safety issues, how do we -- how do we get it right? And I know you -- it's a hardworking department and I, as the chair and the legislative oversight chair here for Council, I'm a fan of L&I, but I know we have more work to do. I just want to make sure this legislation's right, but I also want to make sure that not a day goes by where we're putting anybody at risk. And so, complaint driven, I get that that's the way it usually works, usually way it works with policing as well, but we also have preventive policing. So I guess what I'm asking you is that regardless of this bill, you know, that we pay attention to the preventive aspects of the violations so that we protect each and every resident in the city of Philadelphia. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I have to agree with the Councilmember, and I think you all would agree. Complaint driven is not good enough. There's a host of reasons why tenants would feel -- could feel uncomfortable coming forward with complaints. So we have to be willing to address this with urgency. Vice Chair Landau. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you so much and thank you all for being here. We absolutely need you to be partners in this. So in order for this to be a success, we look forward to continuing to work with you in the future. I did want to get a little bit to L&I's complaint process. Do you have an idea of how many of the complaints that come to L&I are from tenants about repairs needed in their rental properties?
Almost all complaints for residential properties are for rental properties. So in most cases, they -- we are getting that information from the tenants. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Do you know how many you get a year?
No. 11 VICE CHAIR LANDAU: And do you know what percentage of those calls, the complaints that come in, are for the more egregious issues?
I mean, we could get that information for you if you give us a list of what you would consider egregious. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: I think the question is --
Like, we can look it up by code violation. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: As somebody who worked for this city for so many years and now looking at it from a different perspective, I really see that there's so many different ways that we can work that we sometimes don't think about. So how are we looking at what's coming in, how to triage it, how to look at the metrics and look at the data and see what needs to happen on a more quick -- a quicker basis.
We can definitely get you the exact information that you're looking for. I will say this, that out of the cease operations we've done for the last year, so that would be our most egregious, seven percent of all of our ceases were for rental unit -- rental properties. The other were mostly for businesses, nuisance businesses and things of that -- like, so for us, egregious would, you know, be a cease. So percent of them, it's not a huge number. It's about 445 on the total ceases for the year. And -- so whatever that math is, I'm going to say I knew it, when I came in here, maybe 36 --
-- 31 were rental properties. And to add on to what Sarah said a minute ago, a majority -- a vast majority of the complaints that we do get in -- are -- for interior inspections are for rental properties. Okay. So exterior's a little bit different, but interior is rental. So we'll get you that exact number when we get, you know -- VICE CHAIR LANDAU: I think what I'm -- what I'm trying to say is that there is a way that we can look at the data of what has -- what's -- I hope through eCLIPSE we can look at the data about what the complaints are for the rental properties and try to handle those on a basis that we never get to a cease operations level. And the -- just to add something about proactive inspections, we have no 9 idea if the person who got to the level of living in a property where they had cease operations, did they -- had they called L&I over and over again or did they never call L&I? And I just say there's -- the reason for proactive inspections is to make sure that we never get to that place, and that that would be the beauty of it. But while we're talking about cease operations, I did have a question of, what steps do you take now for the tenants when you have a cease operations order and tell tenants they need to leave the property?
So we issue an intent to cease before we would cease the property, unless something is completely egregious, like there was a fire or something that was completely damaged by flood or something like that. So we issue an intent to cease which is usually a 30-day notice to the tenants, and they have 30 days to -- 30 days for the landlord to comply, or the property owner to comply the violation. If it's that bad and they cannot, then we would have to cease the property. So it's typically a 30-day window. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: And last question really about communication and technology. I'm concerned to hear eCLIPSE took us so many years to get it, and now to hear that it would take years to update it to get new systems in there, I wanted to -- can you please talk a little bit about updating eCLIPSE and also communication to landlords and tenants? How do you know that when a landlord gets a -- you issue a violation for a landlord that that landlord actually saw the violation. Is there any outreach that's done? Could you do any outreach to them? Could you also pick up the phone and make a phone call to make sure that they received it? Thank you so much.
Sure. So, part -- the date that Sarah gave is -- it's a date that I know it seems a little crazy, 2027, but here's what happens with the eCLIPSE system. So right now we're in the process of this WebUI process, which I know we've probably talked about as nauseam to city council. But for those who don't know what that is, that's going to make ECLIPSE more accessible on the front end to our license -- our license holders and our end users. So that is taking place right now. Because that is taking place, anything else that is touching eCLIPSE on the public end on that front end, we are -- we've put in a queue. So they're -- we call them enhancements. Okay? So we're working on WebUI that should be done sometime in the fall. I think the last date -- I think it's October, end of October of 2020 -- of this year. So once that's done, we have this whole list of projects that are in the queue that are -- that we all consider mission- critical. So what we would have to do is see 2027 is where we're out to in these enhancements. So if this was something that we said, okay, we're going to re prioritize and this will go in, in, you know, March of 2026 or whatever, you know, whatever that is, that's what would have to happen, but that's the way the eCLIPSE system works. So it does work, but after this enhancement that we have, like, I'm going to call them like mini enhancements that we do along the way to just keep improving the system. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Councilmember Jones, or -- yeah, Councilmember Jones, Councilmember Bass, Councilmember Squilla.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Quick question. How many rental licenses did we issue last year? MD. ADAMO: We have 80 -- I'll just use this one. We have 80,000 active rental licenses.
And we all acknowledge that there's some people operating under the radar that don't bother to stop in and get a rental license. What is your estimate of the number of those kinds of units?
I don't know if we have an actual estimate. I would assume the majority of those are probably single family.
Okay. But can you get to the chair what the rough estimate is of people that hang a shingle never bother to stop in City Hall that we don't know about? So you may not have it now, but that is something that we need to find out a number of. Now, how many L&I inspections did we make last year?
We could get back to you with an exact number, but Renee over here saying at least 10,000 so that -- and they're all different disciplines of inspections. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Can you repeat that? Sorry.
I said I'm not exactly sure, but Renee said a good estimate is 10,000.
And out of those 10,000, roughly, how many resulted in a cease, close the door --
All right. If this bill is passed, how many inspections can you make a year where we preemptively inspect? What's your estimate?
I don't believe this bill is attached to funding. So I don't know the answer to that. This bill is, as it is, isn't -- there's no funding attached to it unless I'm missing out. So --
So what we were trying to do though, was -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Point of information.
-- come up with that -CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Point of information. I just want to -- obviously, we're in the negotiation process, but I do want to note that the campaign does include or is proposing $10 million in funding.
So I know that there's a $10 million number that's been -- that's been put out there. I don't know where that stands with negotiations and budget. I'm not, you know, in those negotiations. But I do know that we had said we are working on our own proactive rental inspection program. And we do not know the cost yet because it won't just be inspections. There will be these virtual inspections, there will be incentives for good landlords, ones that are in compliance. That's why we were asking to work through all the details on these.
So at some point you will provide the author this bill, the chair of this committee with those particulars. Because what I will not do is pass an unfunded mandate, meaning they go out here and do good, but we're not going to give you bricks nor straw to get things done. That is unfair to you and unfair to those people in this room. So we need a comprehensive ask of us so that we can address it through the budget. That's No. 1. The next question I will ask, out of the universe of properties that are in the city of Philadelphia, define for me the number in your estimation that you would call egregious and what makes them egregious?
So the number I'm providing of egregious properties are the numbers that we cease. So that's the same number, 445. So if it gets to that egregious point where we have to do a cease operation, that is the most egregious. Now, we do have different layers of violations as you know that we work -- our main goal is to get people into compliance, right? That is what our main goal is, to have people in the compliance and are adherent to the code. And that's what we work to do.
So you can do approximately 400 inspections currently a year, correct?
Can you, under your current financial and staffing conditions, do approximately 400? CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: She said 10,000.
No, we do a lot more. We gave an estimate of about 10,000.
Okay. So if you were to define and add the pre-inspection point, you have an idea of who is the worst of the worst. And if we could find a list of those worst of worst, could we prioritize them?
Yes. So we actually are working from a list that we worked with OnePA and Renters Unite on. So we have a list of four, what we would consider maybe egregious -- maybe I want to -- I shouldn't say that -- four landlords that we were given their information. We are actually researching all of that, and, yes, the plan is to do proactive inspections of those properties.
My -- so I want to switch back to two properties: One, Brith Sholom, and one, in my district, we did a walk around. And we walked around and there was a lady sitting on her porch. I don't know if Marvin Robinson was with me on that walk around. It was on 56th Street, right near Stewart. And what was interesting was it was cold and she was sitting on her porch and she told me that she was sunning because it was colder in her house than it was on her porch. And what we looked at next to her was a ceiling that had partially collapsed. And she talked about the raccoons that ran through it. As a result of that -- brought tears to my eyes when I saw it, we passed Bill No. 210205. And what that is, is an urgent repair bill that says that if you go in and see what's going on, you or PHDC could make the repairs and that we put the lien of those costs of those repairs on the property. The reason I raised this, this was never funded. So you don't have to worry. It's not your fault. This body, this last administration never put a dime in it. So I warned people that we passed things and often don't put the money to back it up. Had we had money in this program, we could have went in Brith Sholom, we could have fixed the egregious renovations and put a lien on the property. Thus, when they sold that property for $23 million, they would've had to pay us back. We need to look at these kinds of things, Member O'Rourke, to put teeth financially. You were there, you saw what it was -- and I got to -- I got to close out. But as we look at how to amend and do things, I want you to consider this. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. We're going to do Councilmember Bass, Councilmember Squilla. We're going to hear comments and questions from our bill 21 sponsor, and then we're going to try to move to panel number 2. Councilmember Bass.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So I just had a couple of questions, or actually more like statements because I think Councilman Jones really asked a lot of the questions that I wanted to ask in terms of the number of landlords and really how big the universe is that, you know, that we're talking about here. And it sounds like if we have 80,000 active licenses affecting 210,000 units, you know, the -- and the number of landlords who have active violations, can you give us a number on that right now? Like roughly?
I cannot give you a number on that right now. I do know that four are at the top, you know what I mean? There's the top four that we're prioritizing. So --
So I was given a number -- I was given a number from somewhere, and I can't remember where exactly, but that there were actively about 800 really egregious landlords without standing violations right now.
And yeah, I've heard that number too. I don't know where that number came from.
So if someone is willing to give me that information, I would act on it. But the information I was given by OnePA and Renters Unite were four separate landlords, and that's what we're working on right now.
Okay. So, if -- this is my thought, if the number is 800 and, you know, how do we get in front of those -- you know, whatever that number is right now, with having a number of landlords affecting a number of rental properties and making sure that we can address those units within the next 30 days, 60 days. Like, what would something like that take as we're here now before budget season? Because, you know, while I commend the author of the bill, my concern is that we have the potential, if we don't get this right, to create the biggest housing problem crisis. If it's big now, we could make it worse if we don't do it the right way. And so when Councilman Jones, you know, talked about, you know, unfunded mandates, you know, listen, my thought is, if the money is right, then the deal is real. If there's no money involved, then there's no possibility that this is going to be real. And that's, you know, just being completely transparent. If we don't put money in, then we're just sitting here talking. It doesn't matter what we pass. If the money's not there to make it real, then it doesn't really move the needle in terms of addressing these issues. And, you know, again, I have a great amount of concern for displacement that if folks are waiting on us to be able to do inspections before they can move in, then we as a city of Philadelphia have the potential to create a significant housing crisis even far and beyond what -- where we are right now. So enforcement has been a longstanding issue with the city. I've talked about enforcement for many years now as we talk about nuisance businesses and other nuisance, you know, issues in our community, quality of life issues. And we just still haven't been able to, you know, move this any further down the line than where we started at, you know, years ago. It's very small in terms of the amount of change that we've been able to make and the enforcement that we've been able to get. So, you know, I don't know if you have a response in terms of how do we build up to getting that enforcement. I think that my colleagues have already asked that, but I just don't -- you know, I'm not really clear as to what the enforcement would look like and how do we scale to it. Because again, this is a -- you know, it's a -- it's a great idea. But if we don't have the enforcement, if we don't have the funding, then, you know, it's going nowhere. So --
Agreed. Agreed a thousand percent. So I think as far as the enforcement is concerned, that's where we're trying to get the numbers together for what does this proactive program look like. I don't think it looks like inspecting 210,000 properties in the city because some are -- these properties are fine. I think to your point, if there were 800 or 600 or 400, or whatever it is, I think we'd hone in on them. So we would use -- we would use technology, we would use GIS, we would use data that we have, you know, in the 311 system and that -- so we would correlate all that data, come up with what we have in our eCLIPSE system and say, okay, here's where we're going to focus, right? And the department of L&I -- the first time I was around an L&I, had a program like that, you might remember, it was back -- God, probably about years ago. And that's exactly what the department did. It honed in, it took -- it took data from like the housing trust fund. It took data from -- oh no, the reinvestment fund, I'm sorry. Reinvestment fund, it overlaid it with violations and it said, okay, here's some areas of the city where we're seeing the most -- the most violations. And that's like what we plan on doing, using technology to hone in on where we really need to be. And then landlords that are doing the right thing and these small mom and pop landlords that have, you know, one in two -- one in two properties that they own and are trying to do the right thing, we're not focusing on them. We're focusing on these ones that have the most violations and the most egregious. And I did want to give one pitch just real quick for -- I know Councilman Jones' bill did not pass, you know, with the funded, the unfunded mandate. But I mean, the program that PHDC does have, the RIF program, the rental assistant fund --
And we work with -- we work with PHDC on that. Rachel that runs that plan and Dave Thomas, they're wonderful. They've already given out over 8 million -- almost $9 million to small rental landlords.
So what -- so can you give us an idea if they've given out $8 or $9 million? What has been the number of applicants for that funding?
I don't know the number of applicants, but I can tell you I pulled some data out from them. They gave out 350 loans. This is in a year -- in a year and a half, 350 loans, $8.7 million. So what they do, they give forgivable loans an upwards of $50,000. So this would handle the woman who's -- you know, the raccoons were getting and things like that, if her landlord had had the opportunity to go for that funding. So I just wanted to give a pitch that there is a fund out there and it's really well maintained, really well managed by Rachel Mulbry and her crew. And -- so there is that for -- I don't know if you guys give stuff out, we had said we work with them on, if we got the most egregious or we got, hey, here's these, we're going to refer you over to PHDC and have a formal process. Right now, it's very informal, but we're formalizing that. So we're going to say, if we see X, Y, and Z, we're going to send this landlord -- we're going to talk to the landlord and say, hey, go see PHDC and we'll work together to try to get you -- these things fixed so you can keep your property and the tenants can have a good place to live.
Very good. And one last question, which is: what are other cities doing? What are -- what are they doing in, you know, cities nearby, you know, like Wilmington and Trenton and Newark and, you know, what -- are -- is anyone else doing anything similar to this or anything that we should be doing.
So there's -- so we are doing this research project with a whole bunch of different municipalities. We're looking at Milwaukee is doing some good things.
We're looking at Baltimore is doing some good things. DC is doing some good things. So what we're doing is we're taking little pieces of each of them and saying, how do they work here? Like, what are the best practices and how would they work here, and how can we make a really well-rounded program. That's what we want to have. We want to have a multifaceted program, like, you know what I mean, where we're giving information.
Where we're doing enforcement, we're -- you know, all the -- all the good things to make a successful program.
As you finish your research, can you provide the information to the chair and the committee?
Thank you so much. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you, Councilmember Bass. I do have to say I'm surprised at some of the data points we don't have for today. So I would ask that you all -- I would ask that you all, within the next week, if you could get, you know, specifics on inspections, chronic offenders, like kind of the things that have been asked throughout the hearing, if we could have that in the next week to the sponsor as well as to myself, we would be very appreciative. I want to note the presence of Council President -- he doesn't want me to note his presence. Okay. I want to note that Council President Kenyatta Johnson is in the room. Councilmember Squilla, and then our bill sponsor.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you for answering a lot of these questions. And I think I heard that there was 80,000 rental licenses that the city has and 400,000 units?
80,000 rental -- active rental licenses and 210,000 units.
So you have -- some licenses have multiple units on them?
What happens in the case of this, where if we have one rental unit that is -- has a problem and we need to cease that one, all the units would then go away; is that correct? If you were to --
We could do a partial cease operations. But I think part of the -- as I was saying, the devil's in the details, I'm not sure how that works with this piece of legislation, because if we have to do a cease, do we do it -- do we suspend the license and then that person has no license for all of their units, even though some of them might be fine. You know what I mean? So I think, like, that's -- I think that's what our overarching theme is. We keep coming back to, is like, if we had a little bit more time to go over the details, I think we can come up with a strong piece of legislation.
Because what I'm hearing is that you're basically in favor of it, but you have some concerns on language and issues like this.
Because my other question, like, obviously PHA housing and other ones that, you know, we have some issues with violations on those and we know they have some big properties that have multiple units under one rental license.
And if we remove that rental license, I'm just curious how we do that. And --
For PHA, we don't -- we don't do inspections for PHA, right? Well, we do. I'm sorry. I thought we didn't do those inspections. I'm sorry. Yeah, sorry about that.
But I think we have to figure out how that rental license -- how, in this legislation, that rental license worked. Because I wouldn't want to have one unit that's not usable and then we wouldn't be able to use any of the units in that building because (indiscernible).
-- you know, group of amendments we got. And then there was the thing about the renewal, right, so if you got a renewal, right, that was something that was going to hold things up. Because now there's another provision in there. I think this is the Councilwoman Bass's point. There's another provision in there that it wouldn't be automatic if you -- you know, like, right now, if you get a rental license and you have no 24 violations, it's automatic. You go in for it, you pay your money and you get it. If there's another provision put in there, it's not going to be automatic. So now there's another step, there would be a check box or something like that. So then it's going to hold up renewal licenses for people that don't have any violations. So that's something we wanted to walk through too.
All right. Because the goal is to make sure every property is safe and everybody has a safe house, and a safe place to live.
And so it just sounds like with these questions and concerns, you're still not sure how the bill would be regulated or enforced?
That's -- yeah, that's our concern. We're completely in agreement with the spirit of the law. We complete -- you know, we completely want people to obviously have safe homes and we want people to live in. We want landlords and owners and everyone to be co-compliant. We just have some -- we have questions and we would like to work through them before something will become law and then we have something that maybe isn't operationally enforceable for us or legal.
Okay. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you, Councilmember Squilla. Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke, and then we'll wrap this panel.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciated the question around what other cities are doing from Member Bass, and I appreciated also the response being good things. But to put a pin on what good things are, to clarify what that means is they're doing proactive rental inspections, which is the thing that we're trying to bring about here. What has already come up has been a lot of questions around, you know, Member Jones's point around, you know, bricks without straw, creating legislation that does not have any money. Member Bass's phrase around, if there's not an -- if the money's not real, then the deal's not real, heard, which is the reason why we are -- in terms of timeline, why this is happening conglomerately with the actual budget process. Why we have been asking through the budget process, well before the budget process even started, to advocate for the $10 million that is necessary, and that we have also heard others say it is necessary in order to be able to do any of this work. Even without it, L&I could use that sort of money, which -- so that's why it's so important. If we do not have that money given, then the next time we would be able to actually get a bite at this apple would be the next budget process in 2026. And so the idea is to have that right now to get this done now. That having been said, I don't actually have questions, but I just want to acknowledge and thank the administration for their detailed feedback and the degrees that they have brought those details. We've been in these conversations about rental repairs for over a year now. I've only been in this -- a member of this body for about a year and five months. And we have worked hard to incorporate all the feedback from the Law Department, from License and Inspections, from the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations, and DPD. We introduced these bills on April 10th. We sent them to the administration on April 8th. That's 42 days to date. We did not receive written feedback from any departments until Wednesday. Wednesday. We worked hard. My team, who I'm extremely proud of, worked extremely hard over the weekend to comprehensively address each concern and believe that we have done so. Your testimony today responds to previous drafts and issues, as you mentioned -- I believe Sarah mentioned at the beginning that they hadn't seen necessarily today's or whatever's amendments. We -- you responded to previous drafts and issues that we actually have resolved, including L&I's primary concern is with Bill 14 250329, subsection 939014D regarding L&I notice of tenants. This has been removed. It's been removed from the bill. It should not be a concern. It's not even a thing to amend. It's been taken out. Our amendments to 250330 gives FHC optional jurisdiction. So there should be no calls for concern. You have optional jurisdiction on this. Our amendment to 250331 only applies penalties to landlords who are negligent or at fault. Very focused, very tight, very specific. There are no remaining issues that we have received from law that have not actually been addressed. That only leaves at this point the implementation date as the administration's remaining relevant concern, which we are happy to change for relevant sections. In fact, I believe I heard somebody say end of summer fits -- that actually fits our timeline for this legislation. This bill just authorizes L&I to start a program actually by 2030 on their timeline. We're not telling L&I how to design the program. We're just saying we need this and we're authorizing you to be able to go forward and do this as we make sure that we get the money to make sure that it actually happens. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Let's move forward with the conversation. Let's move forward with the conversation. Thank you so much, Councilmember O'Rourke, for those important clarifications. I want to allow the administration to respond to the council member's points.
But I also want to take a moment to acknowledge the presence of our majority whip, Councilmember Isaiah Thomas. I would love for you all to respond to what the Councilmember noted.
So the -- so I heard the Councilmember say some things were taken out of the bill. We got amendments Sunday night, and we reviewed them all day yesterday and we sent them back. And then I guess amendments came over this morning about 9:00, and we looked at -- I mean, we looked at them. I mean, that's was four hours before the hearing started. So that's what we're saying. We don't even -- how could we have thoughtfully reviewed something we got four hours before the hearing?
If I may, if -- again, it's been 42 days since this has been submitted to the administration. If the idea is that we wait literally till Wednesday to get responses back at -- a month and some change, then who is the one that's actually not actually following up or doing their due diligence to get things addressed and done? We have done -- we have given ample time. And with the ample time -- with the ample time that has been given, my team has been extremely responsive to make sure that you got it back in time. So the idea that you're out of time is not necessarily a thing that we have done. It's a thing that seems to be on the other side here. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you, Councilmember. I'm going to ask again, I know everybody's so passionate about this is such an important issue, but we have to keep the noise level down or we won't be able to have a real discussion. So I'm going to -- one last opportunity to sort of respond to those concerns. And then I'm going to ask that we move to the next panel.
I know we provided comments on our fifth amendment and that's what we provided and that's what this testimony is based on. So that's -- I'm going to just leave it at that. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. And I know there'll be a lot of conversation to continue moving this discussion forward. I want to thank all of you for your testimony and your participation today. Will the clerk please call the next panel of witnesses. And if you all could -- I'm going to make a request. I know everybody's busy, but if our partners for the admin can stick around if possible so that you can hear the conversation, I think that we'd be grateful. Will the clerk please call the next panel?
On panel 2, we have Melissa Monds, Sonya Sanders, Theresa Howell. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good afternoon to all of you. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm going to remind, you know, that -- our witnesses that, you know, I want you to summarize your testimony. I took a little liberty with our partners from the administration because they have to implement whatever comes out of this committee. So it was important to take that time and to, you know, have the back and forth with them. But I'm going to ask you all to please give your testimony in four minutes and when we reach that mark, I'm going to kind of nudge you along, and if you could help me, I would be so appreciative. So can you please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony?
Hi, my name is Sonya Sanders. I'm from Philly Thrive and I'm 52 years old, longtime resident of Grays Ferry. And I'm here to give my testimony. My experience started -- I live in Grays Ferry, of course, all my life in South Philadelphia. I live at 1433 South 32nd Street for 28 years. In this house I lived in, I had no consistent water, I had to go down to my neighbor's house to actually get buckets of water to bring down to my house so me and my son and my husband at the time, Ray, who passed away, could be able to use the bathroom and to be able to wash and to flush our toilets. The pipes were so old in my house. Long before I lived there, it's the same house that was built, I guess, like 100 years old. The pipes were just that old. These were lead-filled pipes. So these pipes would bust in the basement. And when we go to flush the toilet, of course, the waste would go downstairs. Can you imagine the smell in our home? You know, we had no electric during these heat waves. No refrigerator, of course, because there was no electric and no AC. So we were hot, hot and smelling feces. We had raccoons also. Another Philly Thrive member here, Crystal Heath, had -- her roof was broke, and because of that raccoons went in. I live a few doors from her. So the raccoons dug their way down to my house and dug in my house. I remember that during -- on the ceiling, we used to see little wet spots, and that was the raccoon's waste, you know, over top of us. We smelled that as well. So we smelled sewer versus, you know, raccoon feces. It was uninhabitable where we lived. When we lived here, we felt like squatters. We lived so bad, we felt like we were squatters. But unlike squatters, we paid our rent. But we had a landlord that refused to do the work. We are here fighting, fighting to be heard, fighting to be listened to. And it -- the fight didn't just start here. The fight has been going on for years in my home. You see, because I tried L&I, I tried the landlord time after time again. I tried speaking out, but no one would hear me. So the fight didn't start here. But now that we are here and someone is finally listening, we are asking you to hear us, hear us, hear what we're saying, hearing that we're suffering, hearing that when we leave here and go home, that we're still suffering, okay? We're still going home to homes that need help. Whereas though, you can go to sleep in your -- in your bed, but there's no bugs crawling on you. You know, but there's bugs crawling on us. You know, you can -- you can go home and have running water and bathe. But while you're bathing, remember there's people like us who cannot bathe, who are home and cannot bathe their children. I have an autistic son at home that's years old. You know, 18 he heard Nicolas O'Rourke had showed 19 a video of me speaking last time 20 here. I wasn't going to come today. 21 I was debating not to come. You 22 know, my son heard it and said, mom, 23 I'm embarrassed. He said, I'm 24 embarrassed because we're not going to get any help. No one's listening to that. No one cares. But I'm here to say someone's going to hear, someone's going to listen, someone's going to hear us, someone's going to make the difference, and that's why we're here. I want you to remember each face here, because of each face here is like 500 people at home still suffering. Say yes, and they will suffer no longer. That's why we want to vote, yes, and they'll suffer no longer. We only need the word yes. It's as simple as saying yes, that you will not suffer anymore. Yes, that you'll not go home and you can have a bath and your bathroom and it should work. L&I should do their job. Yes, they should. We're asking you say, yes, this has to stop. Yes, it should stop. I'm here to speak for those who can't speak for themselves and for those that can't come here today. It needs to stop. We are hurting and suffering. Our health needs -- we need people that take our health seriously. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
Thank you so much. I'm very -- I'm very sorry that you had to experience such harrowing conditions, but I'm glad that you came here today. It's really important. Thank you. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Melissa Monds. Before -- I'm basically going to read my testimony so I make sure I get everything. I want to address, Councilmember O'Rourke. Thank you for your sacrifice, sir. You've giving up being with your son at this moment means the world to me because I am a mother and a grandmother and I cannot visit my own grandchildren and children because of the health condition, because of my testimony today. So I greatly appreciate your sacrifice. My name is Melissa Bonds. I am a mother and a grandmother, and I have lived in Philadelphia since October, 2007. I'm here today to speak in strong support of the Safe and Healthy Homes Act. I've experienced homelessness, I've slept in storage units and under loading docks. But it was an apartment owned by Odin Properties in the Frankford section 21 of Philadelphia that made me sick as I am today. I moved in on September 3rd, 2019. I was denied a walk- through prior to signing my lease, so I took photos the day I moved in. One of the things I noticed was a gap in the floor of the bedroom where mice could run through freely. I had just come from a homeless shelter, so I was desperate to have my own place. But even those of us -- even those of us who were recently homeless deserve safe and healthy homes. So many things happened in that apartment. In October, 2019, water began leaking in the bathroom. A light fixture eventually fell and shattered on the toilet. In March, 2020, the toilet started overflowing with sewage and trash, including cigarette butts. And I don't even smoke. So that tells me that was someone else's waste flowing into my apartment for an entire weekend because my emergency calls went unanswered. I dealt with human feces right outside my door and trash piled up in hallways because property management stopped paying for removal. This led to severe roach and mouse infestation. I reported all of these issues, but nothing was ever done. In 2024, I joined Renters United and we've pushed for L&I inspectors to visit the building. They confirmed what we already knew; multiple pest violations among other hazards. This is why proactive inspections of rental units are so necessary so that tenants don't have to live in these conditions while waiting for someone to finally listen. My apartment made me sick. In July of 2023 -- it was actually Tuesday, July 11th, 2023 to be exact, I woke up unable to breathe. I thought I was just congested, and a hot shower would help, but it didn't. I could not take in a full deep breath. I went to the hospital and ended up in the hospital for nine days with pneumonia. My doctor told me my living conditions were most likely the cause. He was quite shocked. When I came home, his question to me was, how did you catch pneumonia? This is my primary care doctor that has taken care of me for years. I believe you have a copy of the letter in front of you that he wrote. Later that year, I underwent allergy testing and found out that I am fatally allergic to mice and cockroaches, both of which are present in my apartment. Since then, I've been diagnosed with pulmonary hypertension, chronic heart failure, and chronic respiratory failure. Because of my health, I can't travel to see my children or grandchildren. I've become reclusive, not because I want to, but because every time I get sick, it puts me at serious risk. And going in public definitely puts me at risk of picking up everything. This has taken a major toll on my mental health. During the pandemic, I contributed to a book titled The Power of Mental Wealth alongside well-known voices like Les Brown, Johnny Wimbrey, and Heather Monahan. As a published author, I have spoken openly about the importance of mental resilience. But even with everything I have learned and shared, the conditions I was forced to live in broke me down physically, emotionally, and mentally. I truly believe that if the Safe Healthy Homes Act had been in place, I might never have gotten sick.
Pre-inspections, tenant protections, and relocation assistance could have prevented the long-term damage to my health and quality of life. Please, pass this legislation. And it's not just for me, or my grandchildren, or my children, it's for the people you can't hear, because they suffered in silence and died. It's for the people that are afraid that L&I is going to come shut down the building, if they find out how bad it is. It's for the people that are just plain afraid. So I beg you, please don't wait. If you got to do it, if you got to go back and fix this and do that, please, put it in place. Please, put the money behind it. Please, give them the $10 million they need. Please, give them the $10 million they need for relocation. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you --
And everyone deserves to live in a safe and healthy home, not just those two who can afford to fight for it. Thank you for your time, your commitment to making housing safer for all Philadelphians. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for your testimony, but also for being here today. We can see and hear how much of a sacrifice that is and we appreciate you. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Hi, good afternoon. My name is Theresa Howell. I'm with OnePA's Renters United to Councilman Gauthier, Rue Landau, Driscoll, and the other ones that left. Hello, how are you? Nick, I love you, and I thank God for you. You are in my prayers, your family is in my prayers, and, honey, God got you. God got you. Everything's going to be okay. Okay. So I've been in my home for 11 years. I rent from a landlord that owns over 500 properties. He doesn't follow the law at all. He does exactly what he wants to do, which is not make repairs. But the moment that you say, I'm going to speak out, I'm going to speak up, here comes the retaliation. Like, he literally locked me in my house. He tied a rope from my railing outside to my front door and literally locked me in my house, because I was speaking about the conditions in which I was living in. Well, I don't scare that easy, because if I did, I wouldn't be here now. I don't scare at all. If I can live in those conditions, there's no possible way I can't speak up about it. None whatsoever. I'm speaking for the folks like Melissa. I'm speaking for the folks that is shut in and shut down, and can't speak, but they are dying in silence. They're not living in silence; they're dying in silence. And it's ridiculous. We need to catch up with the 21st century, people. Other cities, other states are doing it. They have proactive inspections and it works. We deserve it. We work -- we pay taxes in this city and we deserve the same thing everybody else deserves in this city. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you to all of you for your testimony, and for being brave and sharing your stories. Are there any questions or comments from members of the committee? I have a question, and I'll move to the bill 16 sponsor. Ma'am, you talked about dealing with L&I, I want to hear what has that been like? Those of you who reached out to L&I, or any, you know, other city agencies, the Human Relations, what has that process been like for all of you as you've been experiencing these substandard conditions?
I'll say that when I reached out to L&I, I'm going to honestly say, I'm still waiting for a response. I can't tell you what it's like, because they ain't respond yet. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. I mean, it's important for us to know that. And I know coming out of this committee, we'll do some follow up and make sure that you get a response.
My experience with L&I -- my first experience was prior to Odin, the landlord was -- didn't even have a renter's license, and it was completely corrupt. And I was one of those tenants that was given the 10 days to move, because L&I said I could not live in the property. So, of course, when I moved into Odin, that fear was already there. Multiple L&I reports had gone in. Nameless, a couple of them weren't named. I pretty much experienced the same that Sonya had experienced, no response. The only response I got from L&I was after Renters United had come around with me. I'd gone around with them, went to a couple of meetings, and they did get an inspector to come out and he did continue to follow up once he -- once he was assigned to my specific situation, and that unit continued to fail all of those inspections as well. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: And I think I can guess the answer to this, but I wanted to ask you, when you were given 10 days to vacate the property, was there any assistance from the city in finding somewhere else to live?
Can I finish my speech? I wasn't done. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Oh, I thought you were finished. I'm so sorry. You ended at such a powerful point. I thought it was done. Go ahead.
You get my message, passionate. It's just passion. Okay. So where was I? I won't be long. I promise I won't be long. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay.
But it's just a couple of points that I -- that I have to say. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Proceed.
Okay. During my time organizing, I've come to discover that so many renters have problems -- are having -- are having the same problems or worse issues than I have. The affordable option that we are usually left in are the predatory landlords. We don't have the options that a lot of other people have. So I'll ask a question, since my options are limited, and so many other Philadelphians options are limited, because we are on fixed incomes, does that mean that we are not entitled, or we are entitled to less because we don't have the same income as people with higher incomes? Do we not deserve safe, healthy homes to raise our children and our grandchildren? I have a couple questions for the audience, if you don't mind. I won't be long. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: But wait a minute. We can't -- the audience is not going to be able to respond to you --
This is just a raise -- a raise of hand. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: So you could just get them out, but there's no means of, you know, everybody who speaks has to be on record, and we don't -- we're not set up for that today. So you could just read your questions out.
Okay. Who here has someone in their life who they love who is a renter? Who here has ever had to deal with infestations like cockroaches, mice, rats, bed bugs? Who here has ever lived with mold or leaks? Who here has ever had winter without enough heat or hot water? Who here has ever needed a repair and got a patchwork job, or had to wait too long to get help? This is why we need the Rights to Repair Bill. Now I have to -- I have to say this last part. Voting for the Safe and Healthy Homes should be a no-brainer for Council, but we know that we are here in this room, and corporate landlords, lobbyists who are trying to kill the bill. Groups like Philadelphia -- Pennsylvania Apartment Association claims to represent the concerns of small landlords, but their board -- their board and members include the largest landlords in the country, like Greystar and Morgan, which one owns 800,000 properties and the other owns a hundred thousand properties. Properties who they own hundreds and thousands. Their members also includes groups like Odin Properties, which we know is a piece of crap. These lobbyists have the audacity to claim that these bills will be bad for renters. I'm here to tell you everything in the Safe Home -- Safe Healthy Homes Act was written based on the living experiences that we have, that we deal with on a daily basis. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
The last thing I want to talk about is retaliation. I've already -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Can you summarize.
-- spoke about retaliation. I also want to say Bridget Greenwald came up here and said that we -- that there are only four -- that we gave her four names of landlords that are bad. She asked for four names. That's not the entire list. The list is a lot longer than that, so please, don't believe that it's just four. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for your testimony, and this we clearly have to finish this conversation with the administration, so we will be expecting that they respond to what you've requested. Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just say that I think the people's voices have spoken. I think that the stories speak for themselves. I appreciate the point made about living experiences being articulated here. We see them in our office as your needs. Your experiences are your lived real-life, not hypothetical, not of a textbook, not something that you heard on social media, you live it every single day. In our office, our mantra is to treat the people's needs as holy. Your needs are holy, and that is the reason why we continue to fight for what you need so that you can live better. Everyone deserves to be able to live better. I also just want to simply say, several folks have said, even members of the committee have all -- have said this. And I think it's important that we say it in society. I love you, too. Thank you very, very much. We need more of that, and it's out of love that I continue to do this work. Thank you for your advocacy.
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you, Councilmember. Thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you for being here today and for your advocacy. Will the clerk please call the next panel of witnesses to testify?
Paul Cohen, Steve Chintaman. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good afternoon. Thank you so much for joining us today. We are going to try for four minutes. When we reach four minutes, I'm going to nudge you to, kind of, move it along and summarize. Please help me, I would appreciate that. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony, whichever one of you who wants to go first.
Good afternoon, Chairwoman Gauthier, sponsors, Councilmember O'Rourke, and the members of the Committee on Housing, Neighborhood Development, and The Homeless. My name is Steven Chintaman, and I'm the VP of Government Affairs for the Pennsylvania Apartment Association, representing over 305,000 units and 316 property management companies across the Commonwealth. Locally here in Philadelphia, we represent over 38,000 units and 49 property management companies. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to testify on bills 250329, 250330, and 250331. At the Pennsylvania Apartment Association, we are deeply committed to holding bad actors accountable and supporting policies that protect residents. We believe these bills impose broad-sweeping regulations that unfairly burden all housing providers regardless of their compliance record. This approach risks creating new challenges without effectively addressing the root issues. Our members consistently strive to uphold legal standards and provide quality housing, but overregulation can have serious consequences. Many of the provisions outlined in the -- in the original bills duplicate existing protections under landlord tenant eviction and fair housing laws, and may go well beyond what is practical or enforceable. The unattended result is often increased operational costs, a shrinking housing supply, and reduced flexibility for both housing providers and residents. We've heard today from L&I about concerns about operational capacity. The department of L&I currently lacks the capacity to enforce the proposed measures effectively. With limited staffing and resources, even routine approvals for minor repairs often face delays of 30 to 60 days. Delays beyond the control of the housing provider. The Mayor's office has already committed to strengthening L&I through the budget process. It would be prudent to allow time for these improvements before layering on new regulatory burdens. With regards to Bill 15 250329, the original version of the bill, Right to Repairs, our major concerns are focused on the immediate license suspension for unresolved violations and also with the phase proactive inspections by 2030. Mandatory inspection laws impose considerable financial and administrative burdens, especially on small providers. These proper -- these policies disproportionately target multi-family properties while often exempting others creating an uneven playing field. Costs associated with compliance are frequently passed down to renters. A more effective approach would be a complaint-based inspection system that targets problem properties without penalizing responsible owners. With regards to bill 250330, the Right to Safety bill, the original version of the bill, again, while tenant protections are important, good cause eviction rules can severely limit a housing provider's ability to manage properties and address disruptive behavior. These policies may deter investment and worsen the city's housing shortage. In addition, proposals that alter fundamental contractual relationships between tenants and landlords, such as forced negotiations or rigid lease terms have the potential to destabilize the rental market. We urge the Council to instead focus on sustainable measures that support both tenants and housing providers, such as increasing housing supply, enhancing rental assistance programs, and improving enforcement of existing laws. As we evaluate these proposals, we ask the Council to hold these bills. Let's have more time to collaborate and look at some of the root issues we're trying to address here. We thank you for your time and consideration. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: All right. All right. All right. Proceed.
Thank you. And I will try to summarize my testimony, make it as quick as possible. Good afternoon, Chairwoman and members of the Committee. My name is Paul Cohen. I am the General Counsel for HAPCO Philadelphia, which is the largest membership organization for low to moderate income housing. Basically, representing your mom-and-pops who Councilmember Jones calls your onesies and twosies. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today and for being on the panel, I do appreciate that. We are all on the same side. I'm going to -- I'm going to tell you the universe, okay? So we are all trying to go after bad landlords. We're totally against bad landlords. And believe it or not, I'm going to hear is boos this whole time, but we love tenants. We love tenants. They are our -- go ahead, laugh. They're our customers, okay? We do not go after good tenants. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Hey, hey, I'm going to ask for -- I'm going to ask that we have quiet, we have to -- a hearing means we hear everybody's perspective. So I'm going to ask that we allow that the process to proceed.
Thank you, Chairwoman. We need to work together. We are all for working with Council, we're all for working with tenants. We want to be behind tenants, good tenants. We need laws that can actually go after bad landlords. Unfortunately, see this? This is a book I put together of all the laws in the city of Philadelphia that a landlord -- look how thick this is. That a landlord needs to comply with in the city of Philadelphia. And I'm going to -- I'm going to tell you what so what, I'm going to tell you, okay? The problem is that we have all these laws, but we're still hearing, there's still problems. I've been doing this for 41 years. And everyone comes up and says, "Oh, I'm going to have a new law, and this is going to solve the problem." You know what, if you came up with a law and said to me, "This bill is going to be the last bill, because this solves the problem," guess what? I'll figure out a way to vote for this bill and support this bill, okay? If this is the last bill that we're going to see. But unfortunately, it's not. Because this bill, unfortunately, is not the answer. And I know everyone will hear -- a lot of people here wanted to hear that this is the bill. Unfortunately, it's not. This bill's not going to solve the problem. The biggest problem that we have in the city of Philadelphia is unlicensed landlords, right? Because what happens is, if you're an unlicensed landlord, you fly under the radar. So L&I doesn't even know that you exist. So you want to talk about having proactive inspections, L&I can't inspect the unit they don't know the existence out there. The key is to go after all those unlicensed, and Councilmember Squilla had asked the question -- I think it was Jones, had asked the question and saying, how many units are out there that are unlicensed? I've been asking for that question for years, okay? I believe, and 5 this is just a belief from what I've 6 hear, and you hear the rumors, it's 7 around 40,000 units. That's a lot 8 of units, and that's a lot of 9 problems. 10 And we've talked about over 11 the years ways to go after those 12 landlords, that's the problem. The 13 other problem is when you pass a 14 bill that goes after good landlords 15 with unintended consequences in the bill, it ends up affecting good landlords. What you end up doing is having those landlords spend extra money, and guess who that money is ultimately passed on to? Unfortunately, that goes to the tenants. Do I still have some time? Okay. I just want to address some of the -- if I could, I want to address some of the questions that were asked during the hearing, so maybe I can help Council with regard to that, if I can respond to those questions. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Go ahead, briefly.
I appreciate that. Okay. One of the questions was if there's a cease act that is issued against one of the units, and let's say you have a 50-unit building, and there's a cease act against one of the units, yes, it does act as a cease act as to all the 50 units. So if there's one license -- one unit that's not in compliance under this bill, all 50 units would be unlicensed. They wouldn't be able to get it, and then what ends up happening is notices goes out under this bill to all the tenants that you don't have to pay the rent, and now you have a landlord who's not collecting the rental 50 units, guess what's going to happen? That whole building is going to go in the disrepair. So we can work on trying to figure out a way to make this common-sense bill that works for everybody. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I'm going to thank you. Thank you for --
One last thing I do want to mention. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Yes.
Just that when we talk about this industry and how over regulated this industry is, okay, you have to consider -- have to consider that in order to be a landlord, okay, and that's part of the problem is that these are the comments that you're getting when you're trying to -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. Please summarize --
-- to do the right thing. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: -- and conclude your testimony. Okay.
In order to be a landlord, you have to get a commercial license, a rental license, a certificate of rental suitability, a lead paint certification, lead pipe certification, bed bug certification, Partners for Good Housing brochure, bed bug brochure. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
-- good housing evictions. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. Thank you. No, I don't think -- sorry. I allowed you to continue because I thought it was something additive. I don't think that we have to go through and list all the things that a landlord has to -- has to get. So, please, thank you for your testimony. I have a question, and then I'm going to open up to members of the committee and the bill sponsor. So I understand that, you know, our primary concern for both of your organizations is that you believe that the bills don't take more of a targeted approach to address what you see as isolated incidents of poor housing conditions. While we -- I think we all can agree that most landlords are not bad actors, most landlords are trying to do the right thing by their tenants. The most egregious offenders among landlords have significant impact across the city and sometimes deadly impacts even. So I have a figure in front of me that says that the Federal Reserve Bank has found that 40 percent of rental properties in Philadelphia have outstanding repair needs. Can -- so I want you both to talk to us about what evidence you have to support that poor housing conditions or, you know, units needing repairs are a rare occurrence in Philadelphia. And just to address Mr. Chintemen, what you noted earlier, I think all of us agree that the complaint-based system, it's not adequate. There's a huge power imbalance between tenants and landlords. And for a variety of reasons, fear of retaliation, not having faith in the city. There are a number of reasons that people aren't going to bring forward complaints about their units. So I think we have to move the discussion further to talk about what proactive inspections can look like. So can you please both address, you know, what do you think about that Federal reserve figure and how it relates to your understanding of the landscape, and how can you be a positive part of moving us to a place where we need to be, where every tenant has safe and healthy housing?
The law current -- as it currently exists, has the protections that you're talking about. The problem with the current law is enforcement. The current law is not being enforced. If the current law was being enforced, a lot of these things wouldn't be a problem. What you're asking now is for additional penalties, it doesn't help with the enforcement. That's the biggest problem with this bill. You're not helping the enforcement, which is where it really needs to be. And the enforcement needs to be with your landlords that are not licensed. They're the ones that are getting away from murder. And one of the women that testified talked about that, was living in an unlicensed unit. That's a problem.
So if we could address that, that would solve that problem. And as far as this bill 22 goes, it doesn't help to solve the problem. It's just going to create more problem for good landlords that might get caught up in this, for example, when one unit is cited in a 50-unit building. That's going to hurt a good landlord. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
That's not going to help. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. PAA, I'd love to hear you respond to those questions.
Yes. So thank you for the question, Chairwoman. We have housing providers here as a part of our association, and I know that they will be providing public comment later on, so I would, definitely, ask that we revisit that question with them in terms of how do we address more proactive behavior in terms of the inspections. But I also think -- and we've had multiple conversations with, you know, with Council and with Council staffers regarding this point, but I think we need more of an approach, not just on our legislative body to accomplish this goal, but the courts need to get involved here as well. The District Attorney's Office needs to take a more proactive approach with this. If we have a bad actor, if we have a bad housing provider, go after them, penalize them. But in some instances, we don't -- we're not seeing that. We're not seeing that at all in certain isolated incidents. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Vice Chair Landau. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you. Thank you both so much for being here. It's going to be a long day with a lot of testimony, but we really appreciate hearing from you. I, kind of, first of all, for the record, would like to recognize there's a lot of great landlords out there, okay? Very important to say that.
Thank you. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: But I think right now is a time that we, kind of, set the record straight about some of what was said. Not every instance of poor conditions of a property, of a place that needs tremendous repairs is like Brith Sholom that hits the news, and we all know it. And you're going to hear story, after story, after story of this today. And in my years of doing this work, I have seen horrifying conditions in people's rental properties that it's -- it's not that they don't exist, because they never hit the news, they exist, they affect people's lives, like the stories that you're hearing today, and we cannot -- we will not have those erased. So I want to start there. The second thing I want to talk about is how even in your written testimony, Steve from PAA, that you talk about the cost associated with running the business of being a landlord. It is -- in your testimony you talked about these are costs that could get passed down to the tenant, even the repair costs could get passed down to the tenant, landlords are business people and have certain obligations. And just like all the business people in this city, they -- yes, you have to get a rental license, yes, you have to get a certificate of rental suitability, yes, you have to get a lead certification. You must do these things for a lot of reasons to do this, including so the city of Philadelphia knows who you are, knows who to contact if there's an emergency, pay your taxes on the income that you're receiving, and a variety of other things. So we appreciate the landlords, the 80,000 licenses that we now have and the landlords are following the law. When I first started working at Community Legal Services in 1998, landlords never got rental licenses. They only got the license two weeks before they wanted to file 22 a complaint in municipal court. They were receiving all the money, they were putting it in their pockets, didn't pay taxes on it, L&I didn't know who to call if something was falling down, but now, we have 80,000 rental licenses in the city of Philadelphia on, what was it? 400 and -- 214,000 properties. That's tremendous. So that is progress. That also comes from the organizing of the tenants coming together and demanding these things. There are absolutely unlicensed landlords out there, but I want to be really clear that landlords with licenses also have repair issues. And I don't want to start talking about the unknown quantity of people we -- who are not here, who we don't know about as the only ones they're being a problem. So it's very important that we set the record straight on this. This is not -- when you have to get a license in the city of Philadelphia, or commercial activity license in the city, you don't pass that cost off to a tenant. Just like a restaurant is not -- a restaurant has to get licenses, and has to get health inspections and all of these things because you're a business person in the city of Philadelphia and we appreciate the business that you're -- that you have here, including especially the small mom-and-pop landlords. These bills are literally about -- some of it is about memorializing some state laws into local law, some of this is about strengthening systems, there is absolutely work that we need to do to work with L&I to get them as up to speed and as close to 2025-2026 as possible, so they can continue going out and doing the inspections and memorializing the notes from their inspections, and then if needed, also taking people to court and having landlords actually comply with the judgments that are entered against them in code enforcement court. All of these things are definitely things that have to happen. But I want to be really clear, this isn't just a rip up and tear up these bills, like they are not needed. There is so much in here that is needed. That's it. I have no questions. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Councilmember Driscoll.
Well, thank you for your testimony. Earlier, L&I had testified about complaint-driven inspections, and we all agree that, you know, we need to do more than that. I've seen in my district a lot of renters that -- or not renters, landlords that are not -- unlicensed. You know, they don't have the -- all the license. And that's, again, complaint-driven. I only know it if somebody brings it to my attention. But we suspect that there is a lot out there. In your industry, I mean, do you have any sense in the city of Philadelphia, how many -- how many we're dealing with here?
And the reason I ask that is because once -- if we can identify them, and get them to be compliant, we could use -- that can bring a lot more money and revenue in to address the enforcement issues that we're all talking about today.
We estimate it's about 40,000 units. And one of the ways, and we talked about this years ago, where we said, all the 4 city has to do is cross reference 5 with the water bills. Where are the 6 water bills going? If it's not 7 going to the property, it's going to 8 some other address. That's a rental 9 property. Look to see if there's a 10 license. It's a simple fix. The city has the capacity to do that, but I don't know why they won't do it.
That's a -- and we'll look into that. So any other utilities or the water bill? That's, I guess, that's the easiest one, right?
Well, the utilities are generally put in the tenant's name. The easy one is the water bill, because the water bill 23 is a -- it's a municipal utility. So that goes to the -- yeah, it acts as a lien on the property, it goes to the property. So you would know from the water bill generally speaking.
I mean, I think that's one way of doing it. But for instance, my utilities in my home now, I'm not a renter, but my wife had the utilities in her name -- her maiden name before, and so she still gets building in her maiden name, and for years she's been married to as a 15 Driscoll -- 16
Now the key -- 17 the key is what address it goes 18 though. Not the name it's in the 19 address. Is it going to the 20 property address, or is it going to 21 some other addresses you know? 22
23 No, no, no, it goes to my home. So 24 -- but that was just, she never changed it. But then, anyway, that could be -- it's part --
-- it's part of the investigative process, but I like -- I like that as a suggestion and we'll certainly try and figure out a way to do that, because I think there's a lot of -- if it's 40,000 that you're talking about here, you know, that's a lot of money that we can use for bolstering L&I, so your testimony was very valuable today. Thank you.
Thank you. And if I -- if I just might say that we're willing to work with City Council, we want to work with City Council. We're all in this together. We don't -- we don't like bad landlords. Bad landlords hurt good landlords. They make it very difficult for good landlords to operate. We're all forgoing after bad landlords, it's the unintended consequences that become a concern. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Paul, we've known each other for so many years, and I want to tell you that I do, personally, appreciate the ideas that you come up with. And it is absolutely true that we want the bad landlords to stop being the bad landlords. So there are -- keep bringing the ideas, because we want to -- we want to keep working with you. As vice chair, I am calling on the bill sponsor, Councilmember Nick O'Rourke.
Thank you, Madam Vice Chair, and thank you to the panelists that are here speaking. Mr. Cohen, you mentioned as Member Landau just said -- Vice Chair just said that we are all not in favor of bad landlords and we want to get -- we want to make sure that those are addressed. Do you support the portion of this legislation that actually increases penalties for unlicensed landlords?
You have to look at the bill in its totality and look at what penalties that we're talking about, and who -- and who it's going to actually affect.
I take that as a no. And so this is the reason why --
No, as a general -- as a general rule, if you just -- pardon me, I'm sorry.
And, excuse me, if I could take my time. Thank you. There are a number of members that do not have faith in what's being stated here, a number of, excuse me, members of the community that didn't have faith here in what you are saying, because we start to get real abstract and ambiguous about what we do and don't support when we're talking about the letter of the law that we're trying to put into place now. You made a comment about, you know, if this bill was the final -- was the bill 11 that could just solve it all, then I'd find a way to be in support of it. The unfortunate reality is that is not how lawmaking works. No 16 where in society do you find the magic marker or the magic bullet law that spelled abracadabra, and it resolves all the problems all at once. That is why we have a process, that is the reason why we have to back and forth, that is the reason why we have to do what you have to say, to take in consideration, that's why there are multiple members on the committee who ask questions -- who ask questions from their -- from their line of thinking, from their particular advantage points, from their districts, because they have unique vantages by which to come and crack this nut. And so the idea that somehow, if this thing is in everything that you, in particular, the business person has in favor as opposed to addressing the concerns of the lived experience of the people of the community, that, to me, does not seem like you're operating in good faith, which only goes to further the lack of trust that people would have in what you're saying. I would also mention that there is no provision. You said something that wasn't true. There is no provision that revokes a rental license for an entire building if one unit has a violation. Saying those sorts of things only, again, causes more distrust in the process, because the fact is it's not -- it's just not true. Mr. Chintemen, I apologize if I didn't say your name correctly. Please forgive me, Steve, if that's appropriate. Your testimony, I believe, centered on your concerns that added regulation will drive up cost for landlords and tenants without producing the intended benefits. However, there is significant evidence to the contrary. Plentiful research demonstrates that these types of programs have been extremely successful across the country in cities like Rochester, Syracuse, Greensboro, North Carolina, and Washington, DC. So I want to talk about what evidence you have for your conclusion. The only evidence that you have shared comes from a white paper written by your own partner organization, the National Apartment Association. We -- my team -- my team looked into that paper, and your evidence comes, exclusively, from a single study from Milwaukee written more than years ago, which simply 17 found that there was inconclusive 18 evidence for the impact of proactive 19 inspections, specifically, in 20 Milwaukee. My question is: what credible evidence can you point to, beyond personal anecdotes, sir, that this legislative package is a real risk to the industry when we've talked about how to focus this on bad landlords, that we all agree need to be addressed?
Councilman, thank you -- thank you for that question. I can -- I will definitely -- we have more research. I can definitely provide that to your office. So just give some time, I can share that after this meeting. But also, I would also add, as Paul indicated, and that what you're going to hear from our other housing providers that are here, it's the totality of everything, right? It's how these bills are going to be enforced in a practical manner, and we just don't see that it's going to have that impact, that it's going to hold those bad actors accountable. We think that if given time, let's have further conversations about this, and we can figure out a way that we can find a balanced approach and not hold the good actors also under the same breath. It's like we keep penalizing the good actors.
Thank you for your response. And again, to be very clear, we have been specific and repeated this. I've done this months ago when the people were interviewing me about this question. We are not here to get -- these bills apply by the letter of the law to people who are egregious offenders. We're not -- it's not an arbitrary willy-nilly, kind of, application of the law. The idea is to address, again, what we apparently agree needs to be addressed, bad landlords, and there is definition within law to address that, which is the reason why we're focusing it. You said -- or that there was a claim here coming from you that rather than blanket inspections, we support a more effective and balanced solution, complaint-based inspection programs that address real documented issues without imposing unnecessary burdens on compliant housing providers. Philadelphia currently operates a complaint-based inspection program, and it fails. Research conducted by Pew confirmed that Philadelphia has no 18 program for regularly inspecting properties. Instead, it makes physical examinations only in response to formal complaints. As a result, only about seven percent, as I believe we heard already, of the city's rental unions get inspected each year. "Under the current system, though, landlords are not required to complete an inspection to receive a license or a certificate of rental suitability." To reiterate, the PAA is arguing in favor of our current broken status quo. That is not helpful, I believe, to addressing the concerns that people have raised here. I want to come back to you, Mr. Cohen. I don't know if you lifted it up or not, but I, you know, and I think Member Landau lifted this. We require that restaurants and other businesses post business licenses and credentials to prove that health and safety requirements are met. What makes landlords special that they should not have to post their licenses and credentials?
His mic -- I'm sorry, his mic is not on. I'm sorry. Sorry, Mr. Cohen, hold on. Go ahead, try now.
Thank you. If a landlord has a 50-unit building, he has one license for the 50 units, so you're not going to have a license posted in every single unit. And if there's a violation against one of those units, it's a violation against the license, and the license is for 50 units, so it will affect all 50 of those units. So if you have one violation, and it could be whatever that violation is against that unit, all 50 units under this bill will now get notified that they don't pay the rent, and the landlord's not going to be able to have the money to make the repairs to that one unit, because now he doesn't have the money coming in the rent. There are laws already on the books. They're there now, and they're not being enforced. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
So to have more laws that aren't going to be enforced is not the answer. You can have all the law -- all the enforced -- all the additional penalties you want, it's not going to change the facts.
Enforce the law. It's a very simple thing. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I'm going to ask everybody --
-- what makes landlords special -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: -- to quite --
-- that they should not have to post their license credentials? There is no provision that speaks to what you have stated. That wasn't my question though. Thank you for answering something else. My question was, what makes landlords special that they do not have to post this? I sit in a barbershop and every chair I look at, the barber has a actual license in every single one of those chairs, because you have to address these sorts of things, and there has to be some sense of faith engendered into the customers that are coming there. Why should they get a pass to not prove and make it accessible to be able to do that? We understand that license information is available on Atlas, restaurants and other businesses are in a similar situation. The purpose of our legislation is to help make this information as accessible as possible so that folks can actually have faith that their issues are being addressed.
Landlords -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I'm going to -- let me just pause for a second. So a couple things. This is a really important exchange, and we need quiet in order to hear it. Secondly --
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: -- I'm going to ask to the best of your ability, if you can provide a direct response to the direct question that the -- that the Councilmember asks. And then I'm going to try to push us along. We not only have one additional panel, we have a number of people for public comment, so I'd like to, kind of, move things along.
Landlords are the most regulated industry in the world. Nobody's more regulated to the -- than landlords. So to say that landlords are getting away with something, is ridiculous. And I could - I wasn't allowed to read and I won't do it again. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Please.
All the different things that landlords have to comply with. Look at this book. This is how regulated landlords are, and you want to complain that landlords aren't regulated. Come on. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. I think that might be as good as we're going to get in this moment. I'm going to try to move us along; is that okay, Councilmember?
Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for your testimony.
I appreciate it. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: And obviously, we'll be, you know, continuing to talk and work on this. Will the clerk please call the last panel of witnesses to testify?
Dr. Tyra Bryant-Stephens, and Adam Weintraub- Barth. MALE VOICE: Quiet please.
Thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you both so much for being with us today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony. And again, four minutes to the best of your ability.
Chairperson Gauthier, my name is Tyra Bryant-Stephens. I'm a pediatrician, and I am the Chief Health Equity Officer at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. I'm a board-certified pediatrician in clinical primary care practice for over 30 years, and I want to thank you for this opportunity to offer testimony on Bills No. 250330 and 250331, which is intended to protect Philadelphia renters from unsafe and unhealthy housing conditions. The first thing I would say is that housing is health. And I want us -- I'd like to begin by grounding us in the fact that we've known for decades, asthma being the most chronic -- a common, chronic disease in children has major disparities. We know that they persisted across the United States for as long as we've been tracked at -- tracking them. Non-Hispanic Black children are twice as likely to be diagnosed with asthma and five times more likely to be hospitalized compared to their non-Hispanic White peers. These disparities are especially profound among children living in substandard housing, like we have in many of our rental properties in Philadelphia, where exposure to asthma triggers is more common. Plumbing, and roof leaks, and ventilator or damp basements and worn carpeting can all contribute. These conditions create environments where mold, pests and allergens thrive as we have already heard from the community residents. While housing disrepair can happen anywhere, it's far more common in low-income neighborhoods, especially those with predominantly underserved racial and ethnic minority residents historically redlined. When children are exposed to these triggers early in life, the risk of developing asthma increases. Continued exposure leads to more emergency department visits, more hospitalizations, and more unscheduled doctor's appointments. Even more concerning, symptoms can worsen when children are exposed to multiple triggers at the same time. I've had the privilege and the honor of working with my team at CHOP to study how community-based interventions impact low-resource areas like West Philadelphia. Our team has even mapped asthma rates code violations from Philadelphia's L&I Department. And we've mapped that with CHOP's Emergency Department use in 2019, as well as hospitalizations. the results were clear, more code violations meant higher asthma rates, and more emergency room 3 visits for children. We've started home repairs. In our home repairs, we have found all the conditions described today. It's very heartbreaking to see children growing up in these conditions, which impacts their health -- impacts their ability to sleep. If they can't sleep, they can't perform well in school. So we are preventing our children from becoming economically independent adults with these housing conditions. We appreciate City Council and the mayor's commitment to thoughtful consideration of how to best build and repair existing homes so that one day all of Philadelphia's children have access to healthy housing. Thank you for this opportunity to testify today. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your testimony, and thank you for the significant investment that CHOP has made in making sure that homes are healthy in West Philadelphia. You're not just coming here and sharing data, you're walking the walk, and we appreciate it. Proceed.
Thank you, Chairman Gauthier. My name is Adam Weintraub-Barth. I'm a senior attorney at the Senior Law Center in the Tenant Rights Project. I want to first, very quickly, congratulate you Councilmember O'Rourke on the birth of your child. As the father of a NICU graduate, who's 15 months old, he is so full of life and strength, he was from the very moment he was born. So I want to send you all the courage and strength, prayers to you and your family, and if my son is anything like yours, I'm sure your son, as much strength as you are displaying to be here today, he is somehow displaying more right now growing and improving, so all my best to you and your family. So I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify today in support of the Safe and Healthy Homes Act. I'm going to do my best to summarize my testimony, because I also do want to provide some feedback based on some of the prior testimony that's been given today. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I'm not even going to count that beginning part. That was really sweet.
Oh, thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: So your clock starts now.
Thank you, Chair Woman. Us NICU parents, we got to -- we got to hold together. It's a very specific experience, so I hope no one else has to experience that, but it's a very powerful experience, yeah. So very quickly, Senior Law Center, we prioritize services to older people with the greatest economic and social need, that is older Philadelphians who are low-income, cultural and racial minorities, disabled victims of crime and family violence, and those facing other vulnerabilities and challenges. Our work addresses the historic and persistent disparities faced by older people we serve, as well as those who are isolated by language, culture, disability, and poverty. Housing is an issue of racial justice, of basic human need, and the most -- perhaps, the most important issue facing older Americans. Without a safe habitable home, there is no ability to age in place. Access to home and community-based health support and services to avoid institutionalization and remain in one's beloved community, near family, doctors, supporters and trusted places, and people, spiritual resources and comfort. I want to quickly highlight a few of the aspects of the bill 20 that we strongly support. So I was happy to hear today, it sounds like license and inspection, whether in response to this or not, is ready to get a proactive inspection program off the ground. We're happy to hear that. We're -- we would love to see it enshrined in this bill, and we want to make sure that this is done in the right way. We want to make sure that they're not gaping loopholes that allow landlords to skirt through attesting to the conditions and property avoiding these proactive inspections when they really are needed the most. In addition to that, we're strongly in support of creating broad anti-harassment protections in the city code. Currently, there's nothing to prevent or punish landlords from harassing tenants. The current section of the Unfair Rental Practices Act pertaining to anti-retaliation is poorly and rarely enforced. This bill strengthens that section and adds more robust protections. Finally, I want to talk about the right to relocation. What we've heard today is a lot of tenants who basically have expressed their concerns that if they call L&I, they don't know what's going to happen. If a cease operations order is issued, there's a big question mark that hangs over them for what that means for them. We heard the prior panel talk about the problem of unlicensed landlords, our clients, older adults, any tenant who's sitting behind me, they know if they call L&I and whether their landlord is licensed or not, if L&I comes out and writes up a violation, if they write up a cease operations order, they don't know what their next move is going to be. They're limited in what they can do, they don't have the resources to move, they don't have the resources to quickly find new, safe, stable housing, and that directly impacts older adults the most, it impacts disabled tenants the most, it impacts families with young children the most, the most vulnerable in our society. So in addition to that, I want to quickly also address, right now, currently, one of the big things that we are strongly in favor of this package of bills is it addresses the question of what happens when a landlord doesn't make repairs, and they're not maintaining the property. The truth is, right now a tenant has few options for what they can do to get their landlord to actually do those repairs. If they withhold the rent as they're legally entitled to do, their landlord is likely to respond by filing a case in municipal court that permanently stains their eviction record, or their tenant record, that it shows an eviction filing, and then once they're in court, it's anything but certain about what's going to happen to them at that point, even if they've legally withheld the rent. " We know, of course, one of the biggest reasons people stay is they have nowhere else to go.
There is a shortage of safe, stable, affordable housing in Philadelphia. I want to quickly address that is why the good cause expansion in this bill is so critical, because good cause provides specific protections for tenants that they know if they call L&I, or if they ask for repairs to get done, that gives them an extra protection from their landlord turning around and saying, you know what? I just don't want you here anymore. That is one of the biggest issues that tenants face and one of the biggest fears that they have that this bill would address. And I want to go -- and I want to thank Councilmember Jones, thank you for addressing, again, bringing up the tenants of Brith Sholom. At Senior Law Center, we've been really passionate about fighting for those tenants. We appreciate your, and the rest the Councilmembers, dedication to this as well. But I think that's raised a lot of issues of the lack of specific enforcement mechanisms for those tenants in those circumstances. Councilmember Landau, I think you said, that is one example. We're never going to hear about the extent of these problems throughout the city. It doesn't make the news all the time. We wish it did, but this package of bills gives tenants options that will actually create some kind of incentive for their landlord to make these repairs. And last, I just want to say good landlord, bad landlord, we don't care what you call them. If a landlord doesn't make repairs and doesn't keep their rental unit habitable and safe for a tenant to be in, I don't care what you call them, they're not doing their job, they're not meeting their obligations to their tenants, and they're causing as the -- as the -- as the tenants who testified on the panel before us said, those actions, especially for tenants who are older, who are disabled, those who have children, those are creating irreparable damages to people's lives, to their health and safety, that -- that's the end of it. So we strongly urge the Council to advance these bills and pass them on. We are strongly in support of any technical amendments, we're prepared to work with the sponsor, and with the Council overall, on ways to tighten these up, make them more practical, make sure there's funding attached to it to make sure L&I can do what they need to do, and we are absolutely dedicated to that work. So thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your testimony today, and more importantly, your work. Any brief comments from members? Okay. We are going to actually recess the hearing for minutes or so. So we 4 will recess until 3:55. Thank you. ) 6 CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good 7 afternoon, everyone. Good 8 afternoon, everyone. 9 Thank you so much for 10 sticking around. Thank you for your 11 participation in this process. I'm 12 going to make an announcement that 13 is a consensus of the committee, and 14 the bill sponsor, and then I'm going 15 to move to Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke to -- for him to have comments. And I'm going to ask, I know it's hard, this has been a spirited process and it deals with real life, so people are very passionate about it. But I'm going to ask that I have the space to get out my full comments. Okay. As a committee, and along with the bill sponsor, I think there's a consensus that we all think these are very important vital bills. No one is satisfied with the status quo as it relates to our city's ability to make sure that we have safe housing for everyone, and as it relates to L&I's ability to hold landlords accountable. And so we appreciate the bill sponsor for bringing forward this package, because it's needed and necessary. Particularly, as we embark on a historic investment in housing in the city of Philadelphia. But I also think that there is a consensus that some of these bills need more time.
We need more time to talk through the amendments, we need more time to work with the administration to make sure that they can implement these bills, because they're so important that we want them to happen in the right way. It's critical that they happen in the right way. So what we want to put forward, and then I have more comments after that, if you will allow, we would like to move forward on Bill No. 250331. That is the bill to create a relocation fund for tenants that are being displaced from properties that are not habitable. We would like to hold bills 250329, and 250330. Those are the bills that deal with having L&I create the proactive rental inspection program, which we really want to get, right? And the other bill deals with having the city be able to fight against retaliation if tenants are making complaints. And I know that's not what people wanted to hear today, but I do want to put out there that the legislative process is complex, right? And you don't always get everything you want in a particular moment. I'll also put out there that, you know, I started talking with Renters United about a proactive inspection program a couple of years ago. I've never seen this discussion move forward in this way. Nick has done that better than I did, and it's because he has all of you. This is the furthest that this discussion has ever gotten to, and it's because you are so invested in it, and you're so passionate about it. And so what I'd like to also say is that, you know, we want to move forward with the one bill to show you all how important we think this is, and how committed we are to get the whole -- to getting the whole package done. The other thing that there's consensus on, the whole housing committee has agreed to communicate to the Council President and to the Mayor that we support Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke's budget request that is connected to this legislative package. That's another way that we want to show you our commitment. We also are going to tell, you know, tell the Council President that we want the $10 million for L&I, that we want to put the funding into this relocation fund. So what I'm trying to convey to you is there is consensus among the committee that we want more time to get this right, but there's also a great sense of commitment, and we are so grateful to Councilmember O'Rourke for moving this discussion forward, for making sure that it's been informed by the real life stories of people in our communities, and for being here at such a strenuous time for his family. And so with that, I'm going to move to the bill sponsor for comments.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, echoing what the Chair has lifted up. A consensus was brought or agreed to and I believe that we have responded to some of the concerns that were lifted up throughout the course of this hearing. But a consensus has come that we need more time as it relates to Bill No. 250329, that's the Right to Repairs, and Bill No. 250330, Right to Safety. But that there is consensus to move forward with Bill 4 No. 250331, the Right to Relocation. As we know, as I shared in the previous line of questioning with Panel No. 3, I believe, there is no one law that magically resolves all the issues. That is the whole point of having a legislative process. That having been said, there is no one legislator who is able to move any particular one thing through, they don't have that kind of power. As we all know, the real power is not in this building, the real power is in the streets. The real power is in your homes, the real power is amongst all of you. So as these things, and then we have a commitment from folks to make -- to take these things seriously, there's an agreement that we want to address bad landlords, and that we do want to be able to get these other two bills. 250329, 250330 correct, that you continue to make your voices heard. I am one voice, you are many. And the more that you continue to organize, the more, I believe, that we will win. So that having been said, thank you for your advocacy. Let's keep our pedal to the medal, so that we can see a brighter day, and have the ability to live better in the city of Philadelphia because every single one of you deserve it. Thank you for your advocacy today. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: So from a process perspective, this is what's going to happen. We need a quorum in order to vote the bill 22 that we all agree on out of committee. So what we're going to do -- and some councilmembers are going to have to start moving on to other events, meetings. So what we're going to do, we're going to move into the public meeting to take action on the bill, and then we're going to move back into the public hearing, and hear everybody who signed up for public comment. So if you're signed up for public comment, you will get a chance to speak, but we need to be able that we -- to take legislative action as a committee before members start to leave. We will now go into a public meeting to consider the action to be taken on Bill No. 19 250331 today. The other two bills, 250329 and 250330 will be held. Can the clerk please call the role?
And Chair Gauthier? CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Present. The Chair recognizes Vice Chair Landau for a motion on the amendment to Bill No. 250331. Sorry. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you, Madam Chair. I offer an amendment to Bill No. 250331. A copy of the amendment has been circulated to all members of the Committee. I move that the amendment to Bill No. 250331 be approved.
Second. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: It has been moved and properly seconded that the amendment to Bill No. 16 250331 be approved. All those in favor of the motion will signify by saying aye. Councilmembers: Aye. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Those opposed? The ayes have it, and the motion carries. And the amendment to Bill No. 250331 has been approved. The Chair recognizes Vice Chair Landau for a motion on Bill 4 No. 250331 as amended. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill 7 No. 250331 be reported from this Committee with a favorable recommendation as amended. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Start over again. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: We just take a moment to say, we love you, Councilmember Nick O'Rourke. Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill 16 No. 250331 as amended be reported from this Committee with a favorable recommendation, and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. Councilmember BASS: Second. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 250331 as amended be reported from this Committee with a favorable recommendation. And further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. All those in favor of the motion will signify by saying aye. Councilmembers: Aye. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Those opposed? The ayes have it, and the motion carries. Bill No. 250331 as amended will be reported from this committee with the favorable recommendation. With the request that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading at the next session of Council. Okay. We're going to go back to the public hearing, and hear our -- from our public commenters. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Let's do this for a second, please. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. Will the clerk please call the first set of public commenters?
Okay. Malik Carter, Dennis Drust, Sheryl Sitman, Lori Peterson. No, excuse me. Is Lori still here? No. Okay. Pam Kane. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good afternoon. It's been such a long day, and we're excited to hear from everyone, but I am going to request that you try to put your public comment within two minutes. We, at a certain point, folks are going to need to take a break and, kind of, we've been here for a long time, so thank you. And please help me to move the conversation along. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good afternoon, Chairwoman Gauthier, Sponsor Councilmember O'Rourke, and members of the Committee on Housing, Neighborhood Development and The Homeless. My name is Dennis Lee Drust and I'm the Director of Community Support with Scully Company. We're a multifamily housing provider with approximately 2,100 units among 11 communities here within the city. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I want to focus specifically on the good cause requirement for lease non-renewals outlined in Bill 19 250330. This provision, though well intended, risks creating serious challenges for housing providers and unintended consequences for the very communities it aims to protect. Leases are more than legal documents. They represent the foundation of a social contract between neighbors. Within them are reasonable expectations, quiet hours, cleanliness, safety protocols, and respectful behavior. They're essential to creating stable, livable communities. Most residents understand and follow these expectations. Unfortunately, some do not. And when those norms break down, the entire community can feel the impact. I'm not referring to minor inconveniences, but to behavior that makes others feel unsafe or interferes with their right to peacefully enjoy their homes. Just recently, we had a resident who after multiple documented incidents of unsafe behavior, physically assaulted a staff member when we asked to stop throwing waste from her balcony. This is not a hypothetical, it's a real situation. And in cases like these, our residents look to us to ensure that their homes remain safe, respectful places to live. We try every approach first, documenting violations, issuing notices, fostering dialogue, and engaging in mediation. Most often that works, but sometimes it does not. And when it doesn't, our final and often only remaining tool is to non-renew a lease when it expires. We support efforts to protect tenants from retaliation, discrimination, and unjust displacement. But these protections should not come at the expense of our ability to ensure safe and respectful living environments for all residents. Under the proposed framework, even when a housing provider issues a non-renewal based on documented serious behavioral concerns, there is nothing to prevent a tenant from filing a retaliatory complaint, effectively reversing the roles and casting the landlord as the wrongdoer. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Please summarize.
A rigid good cause only requirement risks locking everyone, tenant, staff and management into unsafe or untenable situations with no clear path to resolutions. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. I do want to just state for the record before we move on, there's nothing in good cause or eviction diversion that would allow for physical violence against a landlord. So I just want to be very clear about that. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Hi. My name is Sheryl Sitman. I have an initiative called Real Landlording to help landlords navigate through the complexity of Philadelphia. Thank you to City Council. Sorry, I'm not very formal, so, I don't know how these things go. The reason I started this initiative in Philadelphia is because it is so complex to be a landlord in Philadelphia. I happen to invest in other states and other areas in Pennsylvania as well, there is nothing like Philadelphia. It is very, very complicated, and it costs landlords quite a bit of money to do this. The results are not better or safer housing, the result is higher rent. And I had prepared a whole statement, but a lot of the things were already discussed. Just another thing that I want to address is the atmosphere in this room, which is very, very anti landlord. I think that -- I don't have anything to be ashamed about. My tenants are very happy. They live in safe housing, they get answer, you know, every kind of issue that comes up, they're responded to, and landlords, because they own property are not villains. And to villainize landlords is a very dangerous thing to do. It comes from City Council, it comes from the media, it comes from different kinds of advocacy groups, and I think it's something that doesn't serve anybody. Like Paul Cohen had said, "We want the same things." It's really true. I want good things for Philadelphia. My family came from Philadelphia, It's -- it -- my grandparents had businesses in Philadelphia, and I think -- I invite -- my -- again, my name is Cheryl. If any tenants want to speak to me and explain to me what it is do you think that landlords are doing wrong, then I'm happy to listen. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. I think we --
And I'm happy to help. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: We've heard a lot of conversation today. Thank you so much for your --
I don't know why these things are funny. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: -- for your comment.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Cheryl, thank you for giving your testimony. As I've iterated several times in public columns, in this hearing today, as well, this is not legislation that is focused on any willy-nilly landlord, it is focused on bad landlords, which Paul Cohen also agreed we all want to get rid of. So thank you for addressing that. It is a misconception -- it is a misconception that is continuously being perpetuated online, as well as in this hearing that we are trying to get go-out for all landlords, half the city rents. That means landlords are per supplying that housing. What we want to make sure is that all of those landlords, not some of them, not a couple of them, but every single one of them are supplying safe, healthy homes for our residents. Thank you for your testimony. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you, Councilmember. Please state your name for the record and proceed.
Good afternoon and thank you to all the Councilmembers, and I think especially to Councilman O'Rourke. MALE VOICE: Bring the mic closer to you, please.
My name is Pamela Kane, and I'm here as both a small landlord and a nurse midwife to urge you to pass the Safe Healthy Homes Act. I've lived in West Philadelphia since 1995, and have been a small landlord since 2013. My partner and I own one rental property located on the same block where we've lived for almost 30 years, and where we've raised our family. We know that it's our responsibility as landlords to provide a safe and healthy home for our tenants, and I strongly support this legislation to make sure that all landlords take that responsibility seriously. I also know firsthand the impact that it has when landlords neglect their properties and maximize profits at their tenant's expense. As a midwife in Philadelphia for over two decades, I often care for people and their families who do not have a safe, decent place to live. On one occasion, I cared for a woman who was completely covered in bedbug bites, her landlord was not addressing the situation, she had no recourse, and she had no other -- nowhere else to go. We see mothers and children with elevated lead levels, asthma exacerbated by infestation or allergic triggers in the home, respiratory illness from mold, high levels of stress from living in substandard housing. Poor housing conditions put families at higher risk of both physical and psychological harm. A person's sense of stability flows out of having a decent place to come home to. The state of disrepair of rental properties in Philadelphia, some rental properties, is a public health crisis, and no landlord should -- in this city should be able to rent a property that they themselves would not feel safe living in. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Thank you for your comment, and for sharing that perspective. Thanks to all of you. May the clerk please call the next set of public commenters.
Mo Rushdy, Ben Altman, Todd Abney. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Please state your name and proceed with your comment. Just a reminder, two minutes.
Mo Rushdy, representing 420 companies through the Building Industry Association. But before I start, I have twin girls that were born premature, a pound each, and they stayed in the NICU for three months, so I understand what you're going through, and my heart goes out for you. Congratulations, and I hope to God everything goes fine. To that effect, I think we heard a lot of testimony today on behalf of tenants, on behalf of landlords, on behalf of the administration and L&I, and I think that there is a general consensus that there is a problem that we need to tackle landlords, or I'd like to call them property owners, I don't like the word landlords, but property owners that are neglecting their properties. And I think that when we say that there is work to be done, I think the work needs to be done so that we can actually target these landlords that are neglecting, or property owners that are neglecting their properties. I saw some of the pictures that are out here, or some people are -- have -- the advocates have some of the pictures of what they're going through, and it's sickening to tell you the truth. It is very sickening, and we don't advocate for that. So when we say we oppose the bill, this is not us ever coming in and saying that we accept this, okay? If this was one of our members, they would be kicked out of our association, period, before anything happens, okay? So we agree -- don't interrupt me, I never interrupted anyone. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: That's okay.
Do not interrupt me. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Let's continue the conversation respectfully. Proceed.
So -- and if they're a member, we address it. When something happened with Odin Properties, and that article came out in the Inquire, the first thing we did was we called Phil. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Speak into the mic.
I called Phil, and I said, what is going on with that? He gave me a rundown of the violations. And I said, I'm working on it to get it done within the next coming 10 days, and we have inspections that are scheduled. My -- the -- what I'm trying to say here is that we're not on opposite sides. We want to be sure that we are not considered to be on opposite sides. We want to just make sure that we are surgical, strategic, and making sure that we are going to be targeting these guys that are out there that don't have licenses, and people who are out there that have repairs that need to be done. The Mayor has $44 million as part of her $800 million bond that goes towards repairs for small landlords. We've got to give this bold mayor a chance. She's the first in, I don't know what? Twenty years, 30 years that came in with a bold plan to fix things. We got to -- we got to just let it play out. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
So, again, we're not against the bills in intent. We want to work with Councilman O'Rourke, and we are committing meetings over the summer, if you would allow us to, kind of, go through it, and we work together where we're actually we'll be happy to get these bad landlords out. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much.
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: We look forward to continuing real conversations and to work to push this initiative forward. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Dear Councilmembers, my name is Mark Roche. I'm a -- I'm a small landlord. I had a five-unit -- five houses with nine units. I'm down to seven units now in four houses, I sold one. And I had good talks with tenants in the back here, and we agreed, yeah, on what the issue, yeah. Many arguments have been made. I want to remind you of the big picture, and I want to quote Councilmember Bass and Councilmember Landau, "This and other -- those bills have the chance to really worsen the housing crisis that is definitely here, and we need to partner on this." If a small landlord like me, I know all my tenants. No tenant leaves my houses, they love me, yeah. They recommend me to their friends, yeah. When a tenant lives through conditions that have been phrased here, you should have other options. You should just be able to move somewhere else and have a good house, but that will not happen if the small landlords are driven out of the city. And look at the big picture, what happened the last 10-15 years, people like me, they don't go to Philadelphia anymore. They go to Upper Darby, they go across the river, they go somewhere else where they don't have to deal with all those regulations. You give us two choices, to leave the city, or if it's too burdensome, to increase the rent. In Upper Darby, we have proactive inspections, yeah. And the inspector asked me right away there, "Are you going to increase the rent from whatever I write down here?" That is what happens there. Let's weed out those terrible landlords. I'm fully on board with that, but there's better ways to solve this housing crisis, yeah, than what's have been presented today. Let's cooperate, and this is solvable. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you for your comment. Vice Chair Landau. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you so much. Thanks for coming here. Again, I just want to clarify, I didn't say that I thought the bills would make the housing crisis work -- worse, but --
And you said we need to talk about this. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: You said both of us?
You said you need to partner this and Ms. Bass said it could make this bill worse, if we don't do it right. And that is true. It could make the situation way worse. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I'm sorry, this time was for the Vice Chair Landau to make a comment. But thank you for your comment. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: I clarify. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Please state your name for the record, and proceed with your comment.
My name is Todd Abney, and I'm a renter in the city of Philadelphia. I've been living in Philadelphia off and on since I was born, and I became a resident in 1998, and I currently live in Frankford in District 7. I'm also a gas worker, and a proud union member of Local 676, excuse me 686, sorry. And a proud member of OnePA Renters United. I'm here to support the Safe and Healthy Homes Act. I am very much in support of the city creating a displacement fund for everyone who has been -- who has to leave their home because of uninhabitable conditions that are out of their control. I live through it myself. In 2005, I was at 18th and Erie in an apartment building and something was causing us to get sick. And we had -- we were having headaches and we were feeling sleepy all the time, and we also were waking up exhausted. One of the tenants called the gas company, the gas company came out and they discovered that there was a carbon monoxide leak in the building. Next, L&I came out to the building and we found out that our landlord did not have a suitable rental license. The landlord told L&I that we were squatters, and L&I told us on a Friday that we had to be out of the building by Monday morning at 6:00 a.m. The -- there were five of us in the -- in the apartment building. And we all were -- we were all being kicked out with nowhere to go. L&I offered that we could go to a homeless shelter and didn't have any other options for us. I managed to stay in the building for another week, and miraculously, I found a room at 15th and Erie to stay in. This is why I'm in support of the City creating a displacement fund for anyone -- for anyone who finds themselves in a similar situation and why we need stronger enforcement for landlords who don't do the right thing. Thank you for your time and please vote for the Safe and Healthy Homes Act. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for coming here to share your experience today. May the clerk please call the next set of public commenters.
Matt Wolf, Lev Kavinsky, Nitin Kulkarni, Craig Summers. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good afternoon.
Good -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Please state your name for the record and proceed.
Good afternoon, Council. My name is Matthew Wolf. I'm with AFSCME International, speaking on behalf of our L&I employees, not management, and nearly 10,000 members of District Council 33. Our members are city employees and the lifeblood of this city. We represent the enforcement officers and inspections teams that would be acting in accordance with this legislation. This bill is a step forward for union members, working families, and renters across our city. Nearly 40 percent of Philadelphia's rental homes are in dire need of repair, while avaricious landlords and property management companies get away with their malicious negligence. This status quo is unacceptable, and Councilman O'Rourke's Bill would grant the much needed right to repair, right to relocation, right to safety, and right for tenants to unionize. This will provide every Philadelphia tenant with the dignity that they deserve. This bill would give the Office of Licensing and Inspection the proper and necessary resource it needs to do its job. Our office is understaffed and fiscally restrained from doing the full scope of unnecessary duties to protect Philadelphians. The $10 million allocated from this bill is a drop in the bucket for what would be revolutionary savings and protections for Philadelphians, while also holding landlords fiscally accountable. We would see new jobs and opportunities for inspectors and show the people of Philadelphia that the city truly works for them. Now is the time for Philadelphia to take the step forward and protect its citizens while bolstering its essential city services. This is a bill for unions, tenants, and ultimately the people of Philadelphia. I implore you all to please support this legislation. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you. Thank you for your comment and for your work. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Hi. My name is Nitin Kulkarni. I have a -- actually active eviction going on. I would just like to state that the system -- the court system has really made a mockery of the municipal court system. And I'll tell you -- explain what has happened. We had an eviction in place, and we went through it. The -- actually, it was a JBA where both parties agreed that this is the settlement and we went through with it and I did go through it and gave the tenant enough time to move on. And the tenant, in the last minute filed an emergency petition in a common police court, and the common police court allowed her, you know, violated the JBA and allowed her to stay for another couple of weeks. And I -- I'm saying that once this agreement is made, when all parties agree to it, I as both -- I am on Social Security because not only do I have a liver transplant and a kidney transplant and I'm on Social Security. This tenant, actually $17,000 she owes me, and that is a travesty. It's a travesty because we made a mockery of the municipal court system, because everything was in place and I didn't get justice for it. And I hope -- I hope this Council -- because of all these laws and things that you want to do, which are good things, but would actually be burdensome for somebody like me. I mean, I just have only one unit, just one unit in Philadelphia. So thank you for hearing me out and I appreciate it. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you for your comment today.
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
My name is Craig Summers and I'm here to let you know that I used to be a former tenant of Brith Sholom House and it's worst experience I ever had in my life. So much tragedy happened in that apartment complex. Senior citizens, mostly they weren't -nothing went right in that building at all. I guess you -- I'm sure you know most of the stories, but there are horror stories where people died from heat exhaustion, but they wrote off as natural causes, stuff like that. Now I'm at a different apartment complex that's only 11 years old, and I'm looking at the same situation happening all over again. Beautiful building but, man, landlords are out of state, they don't care. Management companies out of state, they don't care. They have a few local people that work there that live in the area, but they're not doing what they're supposed to do. Maintenance, no clean crew, it's terrible. No smoking building, they're smoking in the building. Tenants complain about it, they get harassed, they get eviction notice. They get, like, they're going to get kicked out if they say anything else about it. You can't smoke in the bars in City of Philadelphia, but you can smoke in a senior citizens' complex. This is -- this is -- this is -- I'm done with it. Tell you the truth. I'm really done with it. And, Councilman O'Rourke was here, we had a protest in December. They're retaliating on us. They won't let us use our community room. That's supposed to be one of the amenities that we need. It's like kitty -- it's like, get set or something. We can only use it between the hours of management being there, Ms. Manager being there, from 8.00 to 4:30. It's like they live there. I don't get it. But we need to change and the bill needs to be passed. And I thank you for doing what you do brothers, so much for that. Also, we need to change into the guards. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. MR SUMMERS: We need a new Council President. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for your comment today. May the clerk please call the next set of public commenters.
Excuse me. Seneca Grant, Kiana Markum, Jesse Silverman. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good evening. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good afternoon, Madam -- Madam Chair, Council, and our bill sponsor, Mr. O'Rourke. Thank you very much, sir. My name -- my name is Seneca Grant and I'm a resident at Bentley Manor, which is an Odin Property in West Oak Lane. And unlike the representative from Odin Properties that just came up here and disrespectfully lied to all your faces and everybody in this room, I'm going to tell you what my and the other resident experiences have been like at this Odin property in West Oak Lane for the last two years that I've been there. While living there -- while living where I'm at now is safe in terms of crime, repairs have been abysmal. Twice in the first year, my bedroom ceiling had a huge leak in it. They came to fix it one time, did a -- like a patch job. Next time it rain, it happened again. It took them three months to fix these leaks both times that it happened. In the two winters that I've been there, there have been basically no heat. You come out and bleed the radiators twice. Both winters, radiators still get like lukewarm. The radiators in the hallway get hotter than the radiators in the units. They probably had to use space heaters and that just blows out the wall sockets. So in addition to that -- in addition to that, L&I came to inspect my building and the other building adjacent to my building, Mount West last November. They failed them for an unsafe building. It was all kinds of bricks in the wall, or facades in the wall. They were -- they were falling off. They failed them for that inspection. And yet for the next three months and until the work was done, they continued to collect our rent and we were -- we were under the impression that they had lost their license. Everything that I've talked about -- and we've also had issues with roach infestations, mice. Mice that coming from other apartments for me because I have a cat. And we ask for proactive extermination and they haven't done it. They only come in like spray the common areas, but we get to put in work orders constantly for them to come to our apartments and sometimes they don't do that. Everything I just talked about today is why we need the Safe Healthy Homes Act to protect renters, improve L&I and improve the properties that large corporate slumlords like Odin maintain. I would like to thank the Councilmembers and your -- and representatives for hearing me out as well as my fellow residents, as these are very serious issues that concern us on a daily basis. We appreciate your concern and hope that you will pray -- hope and pray that you will pass this bill out of committee on June 3rd. Please vote -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
Please vote yes for Safe Healthy Homes. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much.
Thank you. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: May the clerk please call the next set of public commenters.
Igor Iben, Martin Finkelstein, Ms. Sandra Bryant. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good evening. Thank you so much for being here today. Please proceed with your comment. Just a reminder, try to stay within the two-minute limit. Whichever one of you can start. Whoever's ready.
Good afternoon. My name is Igor Iben. I'm a small landlord in Philadelphia. I just want to agree with most of the panel from the L&I committee. I think we must be careful with the laws that we pass even though they sound good on paper. This won't be the first time a piece of legislation would have unintended consequences. Because of a few bad actors this bill would punish mom-and-pop landlords by giving them additional burden on top of what's already a heavy burden being a landlord in the city of Philadelphia. Taxes have went up, those costs are ultimately passed down to the renters. Rental license requirements have increased, ultimately those costs are going down to the renters. It takes six months to get a tenant out who doesn't pay. Ultimately, rents go up for good tenants to compensate for the bad tenants. I actually know hundreds of landlords in Philadelphia. A lot of my friends are in real estate, I'm in real estate. I'm part of organizations that are in real estate. Every single person that I talk to is thinking about the same thing, about leaving Philadelphia. And that would be terrible for the renters. It would be terrible in the long term. Because of small percentage of bad actors, I'm against ultimately punishing renters with higher end. I don't want the rents to go up, neither do the renters. So I urge you to please work with organizations like HAPCO to find the bad actors very strategically, very surgically. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you for your comment. Proceed.
Hello, everyone. Name is Sandra Bryant and I'm a domestic worker and a member of the National Domestic Workers Alliance. I recently rent a basement apartment -- SERGEANT AT ARMS: Ma'am, you have speak to speak into the mic, bring it closer to you.
Hello everyone. Name is Sandra Bryant and I'm a domestic worker and a member of the National Domestic Workers Alliance. I recently rent a basement apartment near 63rd and Market, and it turned out to be a nightmare. The apartment had a leak and mold growth on which the landlord refused to fix. And despite requests, he even made this criminal comment saying, I shouldn't complain because I'm from Jamaica and people in Jamaica live in huts. I took matters in my own hand and I stopped paying rent and put the money in an escrow account. However, he retaliated, he cursed me out and demand I leave. In eviction court, the judge ruled in my favor stating that the landlord shouldn't have rented the apartment due to past violations and revoke licenses. Luckily, I found a new place and I'm still shaken by the experience. The -- then it remain empty as too many of the landlord litigants. I'm speaking now to prevent this from happening to others, and we need a Safe Healthy Home Act to ensure every unit is inspected before rental and hold landlord accountable. No one deserves living in hazardous condition because they are vulnerable. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much. Thank you. Proceed.
Ready. My name is Martin Finkelstein. I'm a retired professor who has for the last -- I'm also a stranger from New Jersey. But for the last 40 years I have worked as a -- I functioned as a -- as a small landlord, renting one or two units within usually my large big old house. And I'm here to speak in support of the Home Safety and Health Home Safety Act. And I want to -- I want to make a point that hasn't been made yet. The -- I have been in a situation where my municipality has adopted a proactive inspection program, the last seven or eight years. So I have it -- you know, it's not a perfect experiment with pre and post, but, you know, and the world has changed in all kinds of ways over that -- over that period. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Speak into the mic.
Yeah. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Please speak into the mic so we can hear you.
But what I've observed is, it's changed a little bit my relationship with my tenants because we've actually sort of added a third party to this landlord-tenant thing, and that is the municipality. And in fact, the tenants know and have -- and see the results of the inspection, and know what has already been done. And when they come in, they're usually feeling pretty good, I mean, they feel like they -- there's almost a sort of a partnership between them, the landlord and the municipality, and that someone else has already sort of tried to look out for their interests besides the landlord. And I think that has led, in my experience, to fewer complaints, easier time with my tenants. So I wanted to make that point -CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
-- which I think needs to be made. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: And please summarize.
The one other point which I'll make quickly is that it's been a wonder for me and my insurance company because I have my municipality coming in almost annually to do some kind of inspection. And they inspect not only the unit, but they inspect the building. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay.
So I have all the -- and my insurance company understands that when I make a claim, they need to pay the claim. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
So I have -- I have found it to be advantage. And I will concede -- I will concede. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: And we're going to have to -- we're going to -- we're going to keep you close. We need to talk to you more, but I am going to have to move on with the comment. Before you leave, what municipality, just so we know.
East Orange. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. We need to talk to you further. Thank you so much for being here today and sharing that important perspective. May the clerk please call the next set of public commenters.
Ryan Thomas, Shawmar Pitts, April Webb Short, if they're still here, Maria Yelverton. SERGEANT AT ARMS: Just state your name for the record. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Do you want to call one more? SERGEANT AT ARMS: I got one more coming. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Okay. Please state your name for the record and proceed. I'm just going to remind us, two minutes.
Hello. My name is Ryan Thomas. I'm a resident of Point Breeze and a small landlord, and I'm here to voice my support for the bills -- all three bills in the Safe Healthy Homes Act. I own -- I own one rental property, and owning that property has been a source of financial security for me, as I have weathered periods of unemployment and periods of graduate school. And I want tenants and all my neighbors to have the stability and quality of housing that I do. Those who have spoken against these bills, the landlord lobbies, do not speak for me as a small landlord. The -- these large lobbies are led by people with thousands of units, and companies with thousands of units. Their interests are not the same as mine or many other small landlords. My interest as a small landlord and a -- and a neighbor is to preserve Philadelphia's neighborhoods and communities, and that starts with providing stable, high quality housing. Of course there's paperwork and some risk involved in being a landlord, but the -- at the end of the day it's a privilege, not a burden to own rental property. And don't let anybody tell you different. I understand -- I don't understand why any landlord who maintains good living conditions would be concerned about these bills. I've read them in their entirety and I don't see any issues that would concern a landlord like me. I urge the committee to support all three of these bills and to fund L&I to increase staffing, training and improve city websites for city services. Furthermore, as a resident, I'm concerned about large corporate real estate companies that buy up the city and try to maximize their profits by maintaining poor living conditions, cutting corners, and retaliating against their tenants who speak up. These bills close loopholes that allow powerful real estate companies to push out small landlords who have invested in Philadelphia's neighborhoods and not property portfolios. These bills also recognize the important work that tenants do when they organize, and we should listen to tenants who helped create these bills and turned out today in support. So I just want to again voice my support for these bills as a small landlord, and I want to say that the lobbyists who are against them, are not really looking out for really small landlords who are invested in communities. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for sharing that perspective. Proceed.
Good afternoon. My name is Shawmar Pitts. I'm a lifelong resident of South Philadelphia, co-managing director of Philly Thrive and in coalition with OnePA United and Renters United, I would like to thank our Councilman O'Rourke for bringing these bills for the people. And I would like to let the people know we got to change the way we do business because we have to have an effect when we come to City Council. And the only way we going to have an effect is if we get more people to come out with us. Because there's no way in the world that you can tell me a reason for these bills not passing. There's no way you can tell me that these bills wasn't supposed to pass out of committee today. Because when we come down here for things that are of no benefit to us, that hurt us, they pass -- they pass. But when we come down here with this right here, nobody in this room can tell me how you passed legislation that says you have to do good is going to affect people that do good. Why would you be against that if you do good? How's it going to make it harder for you if something break in your unit, you fix it. So this bill ain't going to affect you because you don't have things wrong in your units. So I don't understand. I just know that it's us. We are responsible for what go on in here. We got to get more people to vote so that they understand they got to do the right thing because we don't come in here asking for things unreasonable and wrong. We don't do that. You not going to tell me these bills ain't right. They're right. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
We got to make them right. The only way we going make them right, we got to get people to come down here and vote the people in that's going to pass the legislation. Thank you so much. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for your comment.
Good evening. My name is April Short. And I'm a resident. And I would like to say that July the 1st of 2024, I paid my rent, on the 15th of July of 2024, my landlord came and asked me why I was still here. He went outside in the backyard and cut my line to my electricity, pulled my electricity box out, and I thought it came from the storm. But when an electric company got there, they informed me that the line was cut and the box was pulled out. So what I did was I called Section 8, I called the police and I called the Home of the Aging because I'm over 65 and I'm on oxygen, and he knew I was on oxygen. I went in the hospital for three days, I came home, my neighbor said, let's run the line, you'll be in one room, but let's run the line so you can have air and your oxygen on. I called Licensing and Inspection, it took them three days to come out. Now that the police have gotten involved, they know his name, they know his picture. He lives in Florida. They can't get in contact with him. They have a warrant out for his arrest. By me being on Section 8, I went down to one of their open houses or whatever, and I thought that I was going to move in apartment building. And I found out it was for old people. I ain't old, but nevertheless, the building is nice but the only problem I have is that the owners are in California and they're passing a bill from California to try to affect Philadelphia. You can't do that. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Yeah.
They won't come to Philadelphia to hear our grievances, but they have office managers that work one day out of a week. They got these two little thoughts. That's what you would call them, two little thoughts that work in the office that have no clue what's going on. We can't barbecue in the backyard -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: I'm going to ask you to -- I'm going to ask you to summarize.
-- unless there's somebody from the office there. How can you have a barbecue with somebody from the office when there's never nobody there? CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for your comment, and I concur you are young and spry. You even know the lingo. Okay. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: May the clerk please call the next set of public commenters.
Danielle Campbell, Uriah Bussey, Angela Woods. SERGEANT AT ARMS: If your name is called please come up. Thank you. You can begin. State your name for the record.
Okay. I'm Uriah Bussey. Okay. I didn't expect to get called, so thank you. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Oh. Proceed. Yeah.
So I'm a Philly native. I've been here 31 years. I'm from Cobbs Creek. Ever since the age of 10 years old, I've had unstable housing. I've moved every two to three years of my life. I'm looking to relocate because of the instability of negligent landlords. Thankful for my mother and Boyer, rest in peace to her. But she's taught me to advocate for myself, she's taught me to fight against landlords who are negligent. I've become basically a unpaid inspector, like, when I'm dealing with my homes. We have realtors who are lying to our faces to move us into these homes quickly. And then you are -- they're also building on top of poor foundations. So you have these new builds on top of very poor foundations where mold is creeping up from the basement into my very brand new renovated unit who my -- my landlord is a developer. I've snuffed out gas leaks on top three floors, I've snuffed out mold, I've snuffed out sewage leaks. I've become a cat in the ways that I detect problems. I'm severely disabled and my homes are continuously disabling me. It is not fair. And -- one second. Yeah, as a tenant, it's evident that many properties are even equipped with, like, very old HVAC units that have decades of, like, no maintenance, build up of mold, debris, dust, allergens. Like a filter change is not going to fix that. Like between -- I -- I'm -- I really hope that tenants also have mold protection rights because every home in Philadelphia most likely has mold. And we are building on top of a rotting -- a rotting city. Between the sinkholes -- because we are built on a dam or a creek or whatever, it's affecting all of our properties. None of our bones are good anymore. And so I'm really intrigued on what is going to really also protect tenants to relocate safely into actual safe homes and to be able to -- yeah just to -- to be able to have a better, longer life. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
Yeah. Thank you. Can I say one more thing? Or summarize? CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Summarize, yes.
Yes. But for example, the notorious William Ross III who owns properties all over Manayunk, Roxborough, Germantown, and furthermore, abusive, neglectful and racist landlords should have their licenses revoked. It should -- like tenants should be able -- tenants should be able to have options to have co-op ownership of their buildings and ethical ways of managing their property. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your comment. Proceed.
This one works? Okay. Good evening. My name is Danielle Campbell. I live in a Logan section of the city. I've been a tenant of Drew DeMarco for over years. I remember my 4 first apartment, it was a three 5 bedroom in Lindley Court, a building 6 that eventually got shut down by L&I 7 and boarded up because the elevators 8 were not the only things always 9 broken in those buildings. It was 10 drug infested and often the scene of 11 unreported crimes and illegal 12 activities. 13 We had 30 days to get out, 14 so it was by the grace of God I was 15 able to borrow the money to get into 16 the house that I'm in now. 17 The house I live in now is 18 a constant infestation battle, and 19 we can only get an exterminator once 20 a year, and anything more comes out of pocket. There was no basement floor when I first viewed the house, and they've had to dig up the floor twice more over the years since I've been there. I have wall to wall carpet and the wood underneath is so old that it's ashing. There are cracks in many of my walls, crumbling holes and others, and the winters are really harsh because lack of insulation makes it feel like there are no walls between us and the park across the street. However, I still consider myself fortunate in the shadow of some of the testimonies that I've heard from fellow renters who are living in really deplorable conditions. It's infuriating and it's unfair. I support the Safe and Healthy Homes Act because it may not only save lives, but provide people with the right to live in healthy non-toxic environments. Thank you. Thank you to all of the like-minded individuals here today who have come together to create change, because together is how we make change happen. Thank you. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you so much. Please proceed with your testimony.
Thank you. Thank you. My name is Angela -- My name is Angela Woods. This is the first time I've ever been in City Hall, so this is going to tell you some years. Councilman O'Rourke, as a NICU born, I know what you're going through. My son is now 28 with autism. He's been in NICU and he's thriving, same for your son. To the Councilmen and women, I think you'll have me to speak. I come from 61 West -- 6160 West Oxford Street, Monte Vista Apartment Complex. Wingate Apartments is the management -- is the landlord, but we've been mismanaged with different management teams. I'm here to make a statement that we are -- I live -- been living at -- but mismanaged multiple times. Repairs have been band -- band-aid jobs, not fully completed. The last landlord -- last management that we had, she kind of like scared our contractors away. I have -- I'm on the third floor, I'm disabled, my son's disabled. We have an elevator in my building, but it's not working. So three flights of steps up, three flights of steps down. Laundry, we had a fire in our laundry room last April, this past April. So we had to use the -- either the other building. We have seven buildings in the complex, I have to use, the other buildings apartment thing, but they're broken sometimes. So I go to the laundromat with my shopping card, which is around the corner about three blocks. And the -- it took a -- it took them six years to make a repair on my leak in my bathroom from the fourth floor that no one looked at inside of the wall because there's mold and mildew inside the walls where the water was coming down, flowing down from like a waterfall. So we're living in mold and mildew as we speak right now. We lived it for years. I am their 17 cash cow. I stayed here before -- I 18 sit here before you rather, falling 19 half asleep, but I'm here because 20 I'm tired of not being heard. I was 21 taking care of my son with his 22 autism in school, but not taking 23 care of my home because I didn't 24 know who to talk to. I've been hearing other stories about, Say something that might put you out. I have nowhere to go. It's me and my son. I've been a single mom for 28 years and I don't know where else to go. So I'm here with One Philly -- the Elections plus One Philly Renters. I'm here for a reason to get myself situated, to help other people out in my complex and all over the world. I want my voice to be heard too. Please vote for the Act. VICE CHAIR LANDAU: Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Can the clerk please call the next names.
Sean Fleming. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Any other names? That brings us to the end of -- VICE CHAIR LANDAU: I think we got Sean.
One more. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry. Say the name again.
Sean Fleming. Is that you, sir? Okay. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Good evening. Thank you for joining us. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
My name is Sean Fleming. I'm representing Renters' Rights and OnePA. I'm in favor for the Safe and Healthy Homes Act because I used to be a tenant from a slumlord named Brian Freeman, who works for SEPTA driving a 12 bus. He was the worst slumlord I've ever been with. He was also a peeping Tom for the record. And all I want to know -- I just want to let it be known that I'm in favor of -- in support of this bill. It's imperative that everyone takes part of it because it is crucial, not only for me, but for everybody. I wish it would -- 10 years ago when I was a tenant, I wish this was in favor back then, but like I said, it wasn't. So that's why I'm here to support and support of it right now. So, for the record, I'm in favor of it. I hope you Council people are in favor of it too. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you.
God bless you, Mr. O'Rourke. I'm so sorry for what you've been through and I hope everything works out in your favor. Like I said -- CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much.
-- take care. God bless. CHAIRWOMAN GAUTHIER: Thank you so much for being here today. That brings us to the end of our public comment list and also that concludes the business of the Committee on Housing, Neighborhood Development and the Homeless. I want to thank everybody for coming today. I want to congratulate the bill sponsor and the entire coalition, as well as Councilmember O'Rourke's team for getting the relocation fund pass out of committee. And for all of the hard work that you've done, you have our committee's commitment to continue this work over the summer and you have our commitment that we support your budget request. Thank you so much everybody for coming today. The work continues. Have a good evening. (COMMITTEE ON HOUSING, NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT AND THE HOMELESS CONCLUDED at 5:30 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me of the above case, and this copy is a correct transcript of the same. _______________ Samanda J. Rios