Actually, my assistant is here with me today and she has been taking copious notes. And, unfortunately, I had to be out of room for a part of the testimony, but we have notes and a record from everybody who testified today so that we can go back and take a look at the specifics of the specific cases. 128 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154
And is it your intent to do so? Are you going to be in touch with the people who came here today, complaining about City policies?
Thank you. I just -- the other thing that I had wanted to say, and I wanted to address you both as a City department head who has to work out some of these issues within my own department, as well as somebody who worked with the Personnel Department during the reorganization and kind of looked at some of the planing that was coming out of that and some of the results of that. When I initially arrived at the Commission as a City manager, it was very frustrating sometimes to try to figure out how to 129 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 make the Commission as responsive as I wanted it to be on some of these issues. I mean, I inherited an entire workforce that did not have vacancies. There were no -- I went through, I think, three and a half years, thinking I would never get to hire anybody in the time that I was at the Commission. And in the time that I've had the opportunities to hire people, and we've used selective-factor certification, we've used all of different things that the personnel office has --
And do selective factors permit you to correct under- representation?
No. It allows you to hire on the basis of a special skill so that, for example, in the Commission on Human Relations, we believe that one of the special skills that some of our workers must have is bilingual ability to communicate. And so we've been able to hire the first bilingual Vietnamese supervisor in the City, and we've been able to hire people based on their ability to speak Spanish, based on their ability to speak Chinese, Korean. 130 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154
But those are things that will inherently increase the diversity of the workforce around language minorities, and we have been able to do that. It has not been easy testing and getting the information out about those tests. And the recruitment effort early on was largely on the Commission staff to have to go out and find people. So we're really encouraged by the fact that the Personnel Department has reorganized their recruitment efforts. They've included someone from the Commission on Human Relations as part of the team to look at how they're recruiting citywide, and making sure that those efforts reflect the kind of things that are set as priorities for the Personnel Department in terms of the diversity of the workforce. The other thing that I would say is that there's a unique opportunity at this moment for the Personnel Department in that they have just completed an evaluation, department by department, of coming vacancies and retirements 131 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 that will take place over the course of the next five years. They asked all of the departments to sit down and go through the staff that was there and kind of make some predictions about what they would need to fill spaces and what type of vacancies they would have.
Unless you have specific goals and timetables, knowing that opportunities are coming up and filling them so as to overcome your under-represented classes is two things. You have to have a goal, you have to be committed to it, you have to evaluate it on each opportunity -- not wait till you have something extra 'cause there's no such thing as an extra opportunity.
But I guess my point was that there was not -- prior to this, there was not, in my knowledge -- to my knowledge, an overall look at where -- at how thing were going to come up and how you might advertise and let people know where vacancies that they could -- I mean, 'cause everybody has to apply. It's all civil service. Again, everybody's got to take that test. 132 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 And then there's this whole issue of the Rule of 2, which -- I mean, there's so many -- just from a City manager's point of view and as some somebody who has to work a department who prides itself in trying to keep a varied workforce. There is obstacle after obstacle, some of which the Personnel Department has no control over. I mean, some of these rules are rules that are in place, that we have to operate with.
Miss Seyda, we've been reading a lot lately, and I read the report by James Jordan, in terms of the police, and that's the Public Safety Chair. It was very interesting in terms of the hiring problems that are occurring. We had Timoney coming in to advocate and to push for legislation so that we could recruit outside of Philadelphia. But one of the big problems is that we have an antiquated, biased test. And what is the process, one, to redoing the test, are you going to redo the test? And, two, how are you going about doing this?
First of all, the test that 133 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 we are currently using -- I would not say it is a biased test. The problem with the test is that the validity data does not exist to substantiate the fact that the test is valid. But that notwithstanding --
Yes, bottom line is, we are going to replace the test, absolutely. And we hope to have a finished product within the next few months. We have been working on this for some period of time. We -- what we are doing at the present time is doing some further work to enhance the validity data on a new test so that when we go into federal court, as we will be required -- as required to do, that we will have a product that will be acceptable to ail.
Is the NAACP and the Barrio Police Relations Project part of the consultation grouping in terms of developing the test?
We have an advisory group that had been working with us on the earlier 134 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 developmental work on the test. I know that there is interest on the -- I know on the part of the NAACP, I know that there are other groups out there who have an interest in this test.
Who is the advisory group that currently is advising? And is --
The advisory group, as it was initially set up, included representation from within the City, within the Police Department, the Guardian Civic League, and I believe that there was also an Hispanic association that was --
I do not have them with me 135 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 today, but that information is certainly --
So the NAACP, the Police Barrio Relations Project, the ACLU, were not a part of the advisory group.
I don't -- I don't -- I don't recall, I don't believe so. I would have to check.
Is there any input into the development of tests right now, any lawyers or test experts from these communities within the frame work of the development of this test?
As I indicated, what we are working on now is enhancing the validity data on the test, and we will be working with interested parties in terms of finalizing that product.
Are you consulting with any African-American, any Latino that is an 136 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 expert in biased testing or testing along the lines that, that is an expert on terms of cultural bias, detecting cultural bias in testing and racial bias and so on? Is there an African-American, is there a Latino involved in the process, experts along those lines?
And, in fact, I'm meeting with the Police Commissioner in the Mayor's Office later this week on this very issue, and we will be reviewing what the plans are for that test, and we will be more than happy to get back in touch with you.
Miss Seyda, you are aware that tests have national implications.
On testing is Briggs. 137 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154
Which says that the test must measure skills reasonably necessary to do the job in an acceptable manner.
Therefore, you cannot use interested but volunteer people there; you must submit your test to a validation process.
So that you can then say that this test has withstood all the tests that make it as culturally bias-fee as is possible.
Right. The objective is to have a test that is valid in that it is predictive of performance on the job, and that it's also fair.
Right. And that you've got down as much cultural bias as is possible.
Recognizing that you can never get all of the cultural bias out of a test or any instrument. 138 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154
Right. I just want to agree with you. You are absolutely correct, and that the objective is to reduce -- to minimize any bias in the test. You are absolutely correct.
Having said that, who is validating the test that you and a committee is constructing? Who is validating? I mean, it can't be that because you are well- intentioned that you think it is valid.
We have worked with group called "University Research" in Washington, D.C., and we are also in the process of also contracting with another consultant who will be working with us over the course of the next few months to do further validity on the test. There was -- a job analysis was done to collect data. A selection instrument was developed. And there has been validity work that has been done on that selection instrument. And we are, at this point, bringing in another consultant -- a psychometrician -- to do further 139 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 validation work so that we can ensure that we have a selection instrument that will be both valid and as bias-free as possibly can be the case.
Have you selected all of your outside forces, all of your consultants and your validation experts?
Yes, we have. And we are in the process of negotiating contracts with them now.
I just have a couple questions. And I know my Chair here wants to go. I guess my frustration is the -- I guess what I want the Personnel Department to be and what it is, and I want it to be the place where people can feel they can go and get fairness, that things are going to be all right. And I will relate a story to you. In 140 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 1959, I took a test in the Police Department, I worked in the Police Department. And I came out number in the City and number 1 in the Police 5 Department. 6 So when that lady talked about her story, I went to interview for a position, and do you know what the captain asked me? And I took the test for a Clerk Typist II. He said, Can you take shorthand? Now, I could take shorthand but that's what I didn't test for. They weren't going to pay me to be a secretary; they were going to pay me to be a Clerk Typist II. And I told him no -- yes, I take shorthand, but I'm here for a Clerk Typist II. And if you want to pay me to be a secretary, then I'll be a secretary, you put me in that category. And I was denied the position. Just that simple. You know, and it was not for a Steno I or Steno II; it was for a Clerk Typist II, which I passed the test and came out number in the City, in the Police Department. So it's that kind of subtle -- I don't know if it's discrimination or just subtle manipulation of the system to exclude people. And 141 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 it's what's happening to the woman in MOIS, her supervisors are manipulating the system so that she will never be a project leader. But we're going to look into that. And the other young lady who took a test came out number 1 in her department, number 8 in the City, and was told she was not qualified. How do department heads or staff people understand that they can't do this? Who is telling them that this is wrong? That's what I want the Personnel, to be to be the watch dog for all of the employees who work for the City, who get shafted. And like the lady in MOIS, she doesn't want to file a complaint 'cause she's going to get tagged that she's a troublemaker, and the poor lady is trying to make her years. 18 So she's going to sit there doing all 19 that work day in and day out, and they're going to 20 keep jerking her around, and there's nobody who can go and say, You all are wrong, you are wrong for doing this to this woman. 'Cause you're going to give her a temporary at the prison, but you can't give her a permanent in this department, which she can qualify for. And if she didn't 142 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 qualify for it in that department, why is she being sent to prison? I don't want to have to go through a whole lot of gyrations; I just want somebody in their face, telling them that they can't keep jerking her around. And I'm going to be in their face telling her that they're not going to keep jerking her around. But they shouldn't have to come to the City Council representative to get some justice. The justice ought to come from the Personnel Department. And that's what I want, that's my frustration in all of this. 'Cause I've been with the City a long time, and I've watched it happen. We deal with people over and over again, calling my office about problems they're having in their department because they're not treated fairly. I had a lady in the Health Department, who was on the track, on a career path. They wanted to take her off that career path. And do you know how they were going to do it? They were going to her to the prison. She's off the career path so she can't promote up in her department. It's those subtle manipulations that 143 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 hurt employees. And a lot of them just -- you know, they don't know -- well, she's a troublemaker, I don't want her 'cause she filed a grievance over there so we're not going to take her.
They get stigmatized if they file a complaint. So those two ladies -- and I understand the lady from MOIS was never on the clock. She was coming here to testify today and they put her on a clock so she couldn't come in and testify. Yes. So I'm just --
That's what I meant by, is there one process? Or does Personnel mean different things, depending on who you work for on different days. This is outrageous that we have as many personnel policies as we have personnel officers. And, Miss Seyda, that's what we expect you to take care of. And at a minimum, today's testimony has given you some glaring examples of what happens when there is no unified approach to it. And, quite frankly, it's not very satisfying to be told that there are a number of 144 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154 plans that are going to be put in place. How does that help a person who is presently being squeezed by a system and nobody to hear them? You know, this is the eternal "if a true falls in the woods and nobody hears it, it doesn't make a sound." Not a sound that saves the tree. And the problem that we're having here is -- did you see the people who came and sat at the table? What did they all have in common? That they were not white and male.
No, there was one man, and you could think that that was a coincidence. But if you believe in that much coincidence, I want to be the first one to sell you a bridge. That's not coincidence. That is the absence of effective policies that are being policed in a fair manner. And absent that, you're up to, Does a person feel good about you on the day that you ask them for the opportunity to exercise your right not to be discriminated against. Which, I might remind you, is a federally protected right. 145 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154
Well, I just want to say -- I didn't bring this up earlier. One reason also that we're here is because of complaints about the reorganization in the Personnel Department and how that process was not fair to the existing employees who were there. So we've talked about that back and forth, but I just want that to go back on the record, that that is one of the reasons we're here. And, actually, the lady who brought the complaint to my office, and we've been working with her, was not able to be here today because she was sent to the Federal Building on a project. And I'm wondering if that was coincidental.
We've talked about this, Councilwoman, and that is coincidental.
Of all the weeks in the year, she was sent to the Federal Building on a special project this week, the week of the hearing? 146 11/17/98 LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Pub. Hearing - Res. 980154
If there are no 8 other questions from any committee members, we will convene this committee hearing to the call of the Chair. Thank you. We will recess this to the call of the Chair. (Adjourned at 5:30 p.m.) - - - 147 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, November 17, 1998, were reported and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND CIVIL SERVICE BILL NO. 960598 AND RESOLUTION NO. 980154 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter