COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON STREETS AND SERVICES _______________________ Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, October 28, 2024 10:45 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN MARK SQUILLA - VICE CHAIR COUNCILMAN JIMMY HARRITY COUNCILWOMAN CINDY BASS COUNCILWOMAN NINA AHMAD
Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Philadelphia City Council Committee on Streets and Services. I now note the hour's come. Mr. Pullin, would you please call the role.
Present. So we have a committee. Thank you, Mr. Pullin. We now have a quorum to start the hearing. Joining us also today are people to testify on this legislation. I'll note for the record that we have a quorum and the hearing is called to order. This is a public hearing on the Committee on Streets and Services to consider testimony on Bill No. 240931. Before we begin, do any of our colleagues have any opening remarks? Seeing none. Mr. Pullin, would you please read the title of the bill?
Bill No. 240931 titled, authorizing and directing the changing of the name of Taney Street to the LeCount Street, from West Toronto Street to West Somerset Street, from Ridge Avenue to Cecil B. Moore Avenue, from Master Street to Aspen Street, from Pine Street to Bainbridge Street, from Catherine Street to Christian Street, from Dickinson Street to Morris Street. And authorizing and directing the changing of the name of Taney Terrace from Point Breeze Avenue to Jackson Street to LeCount Terrace, all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you, Mr. Pullin. Can you please call the first witness to testify on Bill No. 10 240931?
The first witness to testify is Kristen Del Rossi, commissioner of the Department of Streets.
Good morning. Just state your name, for the record, and proceed with your testimony.
Good morning. Kristen Del Rossi. Good morning, Chairperson Young and members of the Streets and Services Committee. My name is Kristen Del-Rossi and I am the Commissioner of the Department of Streets. I am here to testify in support of Bill No. 240931 introduced by Council President Johnson, Councilmember Jones and Chairperson Young. The bill authorizes and directs the changing of the name of Taney Street to LeCount Street, from West Toronto Street to West Somerset Street, from Ridge Avenue to Cecil B. Moore Avenue. From Master Street to Aspen Street, from Pine Street to Bainbridge Street, from Catherine Street to Christian Street, from Dickinson Street to Morris Street. And authorizing and directing the changing of the name of Taney Terrace from Point Breeze Avenue to Jackson Street to LeCount Terrace. The Department of Streets supports this proposed name change. Furthermore, Mayor Parker and her administration recognized the historical significance of this legislation and they are proud to support City Council with this legislative effort. Currently, there are approximately 600 addresses that would be affected by the street name change. The Board of Surveyors will take the necessary steps associated with the name change, including changing the street signs at 32 intersections, which will take approximately six months. The Board of Surveyors will also notify the local postmaster of the street name change. Residents will be responsible for changing their government issued documents with the appropriate government agencies. The administration is prepared to work with city council on any necessary outreach to residents. The Office of Property Assessment will change the street name on residence's tax account. Street GIS will change the name attached to the street center line segments, which should iterate to all cities' mapping applications. When effective properties are sold or conveyed in the future, the new street name change would be included in the new deed. This concludes my testimony. I am pleased to answer any questions you may have. Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony. Rich, are you testifying? Here for questions? Are there any questions from the colleagues? Seeing none. Thank you so much.
Mr. Pullin, could you please read the next panel to testify?
The next witnesses to testify are Samaya Brown and Joshua Isserman of the Rename Taney Coalition.
Thank you. And whoever wants to start first, state your name for your testimony and then proceed.
My name is Joshua Isserman and thank you for having us this morning. I'm honored to speak on behalf of the rename Taney Coalition. The world in our city are not as they -- as they ought to be or as they should be, we face many challenges. But I'm not here to review all of those challenges. Today, we are taking a hopeful step forward. The name Taney or Taney carries a legacy of injustice tied to the denial of basic rights to Black Americans. This street at the heart of our city should no longer bear that name. Today, with City Council Streets Committee hearing reviewing this bill, we begin righting that wrong and honoring Caroline LeCount who stood for inclusion and equality. When this idea first crystallized amongst Taney Street residents to change the name in the spring in summer of 2020, it felt quite daunting. Taney Street stretches over four miles crossing multiple neighborhoods and three council districts. But we believed in the goal and we learned by doing. Our coalition of everyday Philadelphia residents grew door by door, event by event and op-ed by op-ed. Early supporters like Tyrique Glasgow saw the vision, and voices like Samaya Brown added clarity. We built the coalition by collaborating with neighbors and partners and having one-on-one conversations across the four plus miles of Taney Street. Each step reinforced the lesson that real social change begins by simply taking the next step. Social change also starts with recognizing that we each have a role in repairing our world. It's not enough to acknowledge what's wrong. We must act. No one can do everything, but everyone can do something. Analyzing the problem, speaking out, and sure, but most importantly, take real steps towards change. Feeling overwhelmed? We certainly did during this project, but no one has to solve it all. Just choose your calling and get started. The belief in change is inseparable from hope. And hope keeps us moving even when progress feels distant. And yes, it's hard work and it feels -- it can feel uncomfortable, but we succeed by engaging in open dialogue, finding common ground, and building bridges between neighbors and communities. This is how we solve our shared challenges through collective action that repairs our world. Renaming Taney Street reflects this shared responsibility. It's not just symbolic, ensures that our government and democracy work for everyone. And for our institutions to truly serve all of us, they must reflect fairness, justice and inclusion. This legislation shows that when residents, neighbors and City Council leaders come together, meaningful change is possible. I want to thank the incredible partners on this journey. I've mentioned Tyrique Glasgow of Young Chances Foundation, Samaya Brown, and many partners and volunteers over the years of this project that have comment on their small part or their large part. I also want to acknowledge Joy Taney, a descendant of Roger B. Taney, speaking on behalf of Taney family, who's joined this effort and she's going to make some comments later in support of the bill as well. Just wanted to say a couple more things about, you know, social change that asks us to move beyond ourselves and recognize the power of our actions to repair our world. You might feel small, but you are mighty. So let's take action so one day our city and our world will be as they ought to be. Thank you.
Hi. My name is Samaya Brown and I'm here to speak about why this issue is small, but also very mighty. As a resident of Philadelphia, I purchased a home in an upcoming neighborhood in Brewerytown on 27th in Girard in 2018. And I went outside for the first time to take a walk around my new neighborhood, turned a corner and looked up and saw the name Taney. Anybody who knows anything about history knows who Roger B. Taney is and what he is famous for. And he is famous for saying that Black people do not deserve to be citizens of the United States of America because they are inferior to white people and because they're inhuman. As a Native American whose land this is and as a black person whose people built everything this land -- that stands on this land, it was both deteriorating, hurtful and incredibly dehumanizing to look up and see that somebody had named the street after Roger B. Taney and after he had made that infamous decision. At that point I realized that America is not going to change for the better unless we come together as a community and change it together. We worked with Josh Isserman and Ben Keys, Tyrique Glasgow, Leo Vaccaro, and a lot of community associates and community members who also recognized that this is something that needs to happen because racism is not just a what -- it's not unimportant. It is structural. It is systematic. And in order for us to actually overcome racism, we will have to dismantle all of the systems that uphold it. We are very thankful for the NAACP and President Hicks as well as Philadelphia Community College President Dr. Generals, and several other members over the community who also recognize how important it is not only to remove the name Roger B. Taney, but to instill the name Caroline LeCount. If you don't know who Caroline LeCount is, there is a reason for that. She was a wonderful advocate and activist in the Philadelphia community and Philadelphia's Rosa Parks 100 years before Rosa Parks did what she did for the community. She has put her life on the line and dedicated her life to making this community a better place for not just black people, but for everybody. And as a black and native American person who doesn't have a lot of historical figures that I can look up to, it is important that we highlight what she did for us. That we tell her story, that we do not let her story be lost to history because it should not be. And it is appalling that somebody would have a street named after them because of a terrible thing that they did. And Caroline LeCount, who spent her entire life serving the Philadelphia community, did not even have a headstone in the Eden Cemetery until we raised money to get her one. So I hope that you can look at this not just as removing the name Taney because of the terrible anecdotes that come with it, but because Caroline LeCount deserves to have her story told, and she deserves to be learned about by all of the children in Philadelphia, and she deserves to be somebody who history recognizes and remembers. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your testimony. Any questions? COUNCILWOMAN BROOKS?
I was wondering, either one of you or someone from the administration if they're still here. Is this going to be an ongoing coalition for other streets that have names that don't represent where we are now as a country or could be offensive to other people? Or is this like a one-time coalition, which I celebrate. This is an amazing thing. I'm just wondering if this is going to be --
Sure. I can only speak for myself, but I am a community activist and it is something that I do understand is a really prominent issue in America having honorifics and streets and building named after people who don't deserve to have them. And I do think that it is an important thing that we do. And after we finish this, this has taken about four years. I am definitely happy and ready and willing and will be looking for other opportunities to fix things of this nature.
Okay. Thank you both. Like, all -- just the coalition for this work, when I read up on it this morning and kind of warmed my soul as an activist and organizer to see, you know, black women receiving their honors for hard work that sometimes not recognized and they didn't do it to be recognized, they did it because they had to.
So thank you for, you know, making sure that the city remembers her and for the work you guys have done to switch this over. I appreciate that.
Yes. Thank you. Thank you to all of you for the hard work you've done to rectify a stain, right? And it'll take a lot more for us to not only remove the stain in this way, but remove it in systematic ways that continue to plague us. But I wanted to ask you, you said it took four years from when you started talking about it. Can you share with us what were the impediments or was just a process so to my colleague's point, if we were to do other spaces, what are the lessons learned as a best practice? And just curious to know what took so long?
Okay. So I want to first thank Council President Johnson and his wonderful staff. And, in fact, many staff have come and moved to other positions within city government to serve our city. And we've kind of outlasted even a generation of a staff. So you know, we kind of look at what we did as sustaining a campaign, you know, not an electoral campaign, but sustaining a campaign of over many years, which is very challenging. And I think for other groups of people thinking about impacting their neighborhoods and their communities in a positive way, the best thing that institutions like City Council can do is to be clear about the process and to be clear about what is achievable from everyday residents. So we as a city for -- often for good, but sometimes not perfectly rely too much on overwhelming consensus. And there's theories as to why, you know, this tradition has occurred. But, you know, we -- this particular street was challenging because it went across three city council districts. And Council President Johnson was supportive from the beginning. Curtis Jones, Councilmember Jones was also supportive from the beginning. And now we have a new Councilmember in the 5th District who is supportive. So that's the -- that was the highest hurdle.
Okay. And so we're getting three council staffs to coordinate tightly. We're explaining a nuanced issue that hasn't been seen before. Now there's a model for it in some way and it hopefully can be iterated on to make it better for the city and better for the residents doing this work. I don't know if it wasn't us, if other people honestly would've had the frustration tolerance to overcome the barriers.
Well, thank you so much. Because what we are sending is a message to our children that when their mistakes made, how do we account for them, rectify them, and move forward regardless of what the issue is, right? But in this particular issue, this is the original sin of this country. We're still grappling with that. And so I commend everybody who's here to testify about how to take and grapple with something -- one facet of it. You know, it's -- it might look ceremonial to some folks, but it's the beginning of saying that we are accounting for what happened and doing -- and rectifying that. So I'm very grateful to all of you. And best practices, we should probably look internally to see what is a tool kit that comes out of something like that.
Right. Yeah. Because we have a lot of issues we have to deal with and to streamline this would be probably very --
Yeah. And this one is one that can be -- it could not be re-contextualized, like the street, you know, it's -- I think it's 32 blocks that it -- there's no 8 way to do anything about that. You couldn't place a plaque next to it. And so there -- but there are other elements in this city that could be potentially recontextualized. There are other tools available. And so it would be helpful for city leaders to think about how to do this in a way that moves all of us forward without, you know, overwhelming everyday residents.
Thank you, council members. Any other questions? Seeing none. Thank you so much for your testimony.
Mr. Pullin, can you please read the next panel to testify?
The next witness testify is Tyrique Glasgow, founder of The Young Chances Foundation.
Good morning and thank you both for being here to be a part of this hearing. I just want you to state your names for the record and then proceed with your testimony.
Good morning. My name is Tyrique Glasgow. T-Y-R-I-Q-U-E. Glasgow, G-L-A-S-G-O-W. Tell them how your name and spell it. CHILD SMITH: My name is Amaj Smith.
Spell it. It has to go on record. He has his speech together. We didn't go over this part of the introduction.
No 14 problem. Thank you. And welcome. We'll start with you Tyrique, then proceed with your testimony and we'll go to the little one.
All right. First of all, I'm going to just say God is good all the time, and all the time, God is good. And I'm going to give a direct shout out to my grandmom who cannot be here, but is the reason why I'm here today. As mentioned, my name is Tyrique Glasgow. I'm the executive director of Young Chances Foundation, which is a community organization in South Philadelphia, primarily in the Grays Ferry area. We focus on public health, public safety and youth engagement, trying to provide all the resources and information to our community without the red tape. I came to this project as just a member in the community doing worked during the COVID Pandemic. And for me, you know, as a black man in Grays Ferry, it always wasn't welcoming. I'm going to get straight to the point about doing some of the things that we do in our community. And during that time, during COVID, it was -- it was a challenge. It was a challenge just to get resources, just to get information, just to see a smile on people faces, you know, and everyone went through that. So when I seen two literally white men walking down the street in Grays Ferry talking about wanting to change, wanting to provide, wanting to do all those things, I thought of it again as a poverty pimp. So these are people who are coming to the community trying to take advantage of us, trying to do things that is not going to benefit me or the community, the residents that I serve. One of the things that I first asked Ben and Joshua is, why? What is it for? What are you all doing? But before they could even get it out, I looked down and I seen that they had their kids with them. And it was something that, it wasn't like they were out here campaigning. That they are out here doing something, you know, for themselves. Clearly, they were trying to change the generational, you know, educational things that they had learned and provide that to our community. I will at sidebar say that they don't even live in our community. Those -- these two people don't reside, doesn't have resources, teams, so there's no interest for them to be there. So, again, my antennas went up like, here we go again. But when they talked about did I know Taney? You know, as someone who lived in that community, who has been shot 11 times, went to jail for five years and thought Taney Street was mine, it was ownership. You know, a lot of people in the community, regardless if you're on Taney Street or if you're in a housing projects, that's Taney. You know, people took pride in knowing that you were from Taney or this was your representation, so to say. But the reality was it's not ours. You know, he -- they broke it down to me that this was someone who basically said the reason why a lot of the things that are going on, not only in our city, but in our country is because of this decision. And as a person who thinks we get it and we know that, it really was a slap in the face because I'm like the same block that I was on, the same things that I was doing trying to provide those everyday resources and talk about mental health and bridge the divide through finances. Here's someone who basically said, you're not even equal to the people that you're serving. Who are you? You don't -- you shouldn't have a chance to vote. You shouldn't have an opportunity to read, write, and provide for your family. This is not true. So that decision basically was the reason why a lot of our, you know, elected officials and agencies have to provide those essential resources to my community. So I challenge the Rename Taney Coalition to not only fix yesterday, but how can we focus on tomorrow. Because a lot of the things in our community has already been embedded. You know, a lot of people think that, you know, living in poverty or gun violence or living in communities is normal. These are the things that you are supposed to live like. You're supposed to have, you know, violence or people lose their lives everyday in your community.
But the challenge for me was to get a different plate for the young people in my community, for them to understand that they don't have to point the finger at the issues. They can look in the mirror and come up with some different solutions for themselves. And council did ask about what were some of the strategies. Mine was to get the young people at the table for them to see, like what it is for you to have a fresh start. For someone was to think that you were equal, that you could have those opportunities. So when we went into not only the meetings, but into schools and the daycares and the libraries, and was talking to other community organizers about the -- not only the decision, but Caroline LeCount, who is a black woman, who was a teacher, who was a Philadelphia Rosa Parks. But also gave them the opportunity to talk about literacy, to talk about the transportation and the acts that you wouldn't talk about when it's not Black History Month. You know, when it's not just a talking point, it's the things that we need to instill in our community everyday. And it got away from just becoming about Caroline LeCount, but about the generational issues that we can change within our community. I want to first say that it was different for me because I'm really selfish and protective of my community. But when they talked about the three different council matter districts that it spanned across, the same issues that was in South Philly is in North Philly, is in all those districts. And every community member understood, you know, this is something that we should get over. So I did invite Mr. Amaj to come and give a small testimony because we do speak about today, but for my organization it's about providing a tomorrow.
Amaj? Yes, just -- CHILD SMITH: Good morning. My name is Amaj Smith and I attend school here in Philadelphia and is a part of Young Chances Foundation. I'm here to support the name of -- the name change of LeCount Street because it is very important to the community. And I would be -- I think it would be fun for me to learn about -- more about it. Thank you. And I hope the name change happens for my generation.
Amaj, thank you so much for your testimony. Both of your testimony, but it's really important to understand that -- the courage it takes to come here and testify in front of City Council. And we appreciate what you have done today because it shows that the voices of the young do need to be heard and that, you know, people on council will listen to that. So thank you for doing that and being part of today's hearing process. Great job. CHILD SMITH: You're welcome.
I noticed that he was inquisitive about things that are happening over here, so hopefully you guys get to stick around a little bit so he can come behind there and kind of see what's back here. It will be a full day experience of what we do here in council.
We'll do that. And I want to close by saying that this is our opportunity to start, but also give appreciation to the council president and, you know, Councilmember Jones and Young, but also to the other members who are listening to this and are going to vote. It takes me back to Alfred Nobel who, you know, created dynamite. And I also talk about this legacy change that we're doing in the city where it's not just about, you know, a color, it's really about changing our legacy. And when Alfred Nobel passed away, they put an obituary about his work and his life and his legacy. And they talked about how he was an architect at death, about how the war started and how it killed communities and children and things like that. But what they didn't know was Alfred had a twin brother, and that was actually Alfred's twin brother who passed away. And what Alfred did was he felt some type of way about how they talked about his legacy and his life because that's not who he truly was. So Alfred ran around the country and he talked to all his legislators and his friends and politics and government and who was doing social work and he said, I need you to go out there and find good people who are doing good work and that's providing a different opportunity for our community. Now that award is called the Nobel Peace Prize and it allows people to see the positive in our country. So I appreciate not only council changing the legacy in the city of Philadelphia, but giving our generation a new start.
Mr. Pullin, can you please read the next panel to testify?
Tyrique, Tyrique, before you go, can you turn around and the young man.
That's good. Okay. Thank you. Wait, wait, wait. Thank you.
Thank you. Joy, just state your name for the records, then you can proceed with your testimony.
My name is Joy Taney. Yes, if we could play the videos of two Taney family members. We also have written testimony from two additional Taney family members. (Video is played.)
(Video recording) My name is Peter Taney. Roger Brooke Taney was my great-great- great-great uncle and I completely support the renaming of Taney Street as I suppose it's called in that neighborhood. It was named that as a racist move by local government when that happened. And I don't think this dude's name should be on anything anywhere. He is a stain on the family history, so good luck with it.
(Video recording) My name is Madeline Flori Taney. I'm a great -- one of the great, great, grandnieces Roger Brooke Taney, and I support the renaming of Taney Street to LeCount Street. There should be nothing named after Roger B. Taney. Thank you. (Video recording ended.)
And you should also have additional written testimony from two more Taney family members, Ariel and Ashley Halburn, my cousin and her daughter. My name is Joy Taney and I'm a member of the Taney family whose ancestors include Chief Justice Roger Taney after whom Taney Street is named. The Taney family has debated how to reckon with our family's legacy and infamous ancestor for longer than I've been alive. The conversation has gone on longer than my father and his siblings who lived in Philadelphia since the 70s have been alive. When my Taney uncle worked with the Scott family to create an official apology from the Taney family to the Scott family, on the 160th anniversary of the ruling he said, apologizing to the Scotts for the Dred Scott decision is like bringing a Band-Aid to an amputation. It's right and necessary to apologize, but what's important now is what actions we can all take. The actions we can take in Philadelphia by changing the name of Taney Street to LeCount Street can turn the tides on the psychological and social impact that this street name has caused in Philadelphians of all races for 166 years. Taney Street was named just one year after the Dred Scott decision was issued. Roger Taney has no 10 significant history here. He didn't live here. And my Taney cousin's research revealed zero significant connections or moments in his life, which happened in Philadelphia. Many Philly street names connect to Philadelphian history and meaning, from our local trees to Shackamaxon's Lenape translation of a place where chiefs meet. But Roger Taney is associated with this one act. It is the only way we hear the Taney name mentioned at all in school or in conversation when learning about significant Supreme Court rulings and the long ongoing road towards civil rights justice. Can you imagine that day for a Philadelphian student discussing the horrific cultural impact of Taney's ruling against the citizenship and personhood of black Americans, and seeing that name on your own street? I can't even begin to imagine how Taney Street must make our black Philadelphians feel. As a Taney family member, I feel shame when seeing the street and a deep distrust toward a mayor who wanted to honor Taney's part in the Dred Scott decision this way. What must naming Taney Street and leaving it standing for 166 years say to Philadelphians about a city government which honors one of the great American dehumanizers. Renaming Taney Street won't solve the vast and terrible legacy of my ancestors ruling that black people who were slaves or had ancestors that were slaves did not have rights as American citizens, but renaming it to LeCount Street can be a transformative act. Caroline LeCount wasn't just a black Philadelphian activist who was ahead of her time in desegregating transportation 90 years before Rosa Parks, her public speaking accomplishments and becoming the second black woman school principal in Philly history. She's still an example and inspiration for modern activists to follow in making our city better. Learning LeCount's name in school or in conversation and connecting it to your nearby street or your home street is aspirational. By sticking to and fighting for what she believed in, Caroline LeCount made history. The city government honoring LeCount Street shows that you believe in what she believed in rather than Taney Street, reminding Philadelphians how black Philadelphians were property not so long ago, and the government supported that, too, through Taney. In truth, the Taney family doesn't want to erase Roger Taney's name from history. We want to keep the conversation about him alive and continue working with Dred Scott's descendants, so that Taney's legislative violence against black Americans is never repeated. Continuing to honor Taney with a street name is not the way to learn from the past. Continuing to honor him with a street name is to celebrate the Dred Scott ruling and to co-sign it with your own support.
Philadelphia is the city of non-profits, of cutting edge activism, of utopian experiments. Renaming Taney Street after our own Philadelphian citizen Caroline LeCount aligns with all the best parts and potentials of our city. The Taney family, myself included, believes that street names should be aspirational and or historic, both of which qualify Caroline LeCount far above Roger Taney. Taney Street's name is a constant reminder of how our own mayor celebrated the loss of rights and personhood in the Dred Scott decision, which was a ruling made by a non-Philadelphian who had no personal history in Philadelphia. The Taneys who live in this city now, and the Taneys who have lived here since the 70s believe in LeCount Street. We believe in what LeCount Street says about the virtues our Philadelphia government stands for. The Taney family stands with rename Taney Street, the message it sends and the impact it has. I ask you to stand with us and rename Taney Street to LeCount Street. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your testimony. Any questions? Seeing none. Can -- Mr. Pullin, can we please have the next -- COUNCILWOMAN BASS?
You know, I just really wanted to commend you for being here today because I can't begin to tell you how many wrongful, you know, statues or namings of, you know, confederate, you know, generals or luminaries, you know, of that time, who have relatives who still feel that there are in -- they are entitled to a position on a street renaming or on a statue or whatever, a building. It doesn't matter. And so I just really wanted to commend you for being here and for speaking truth to power and for really just, you know, spreading the word that what happened was unacceptable then, it's unacceptable now to continue on and that we have your full blessings from the family. So it's -- I think that's worth noting and I just wanted to acknowledge that.
Thank you again for your testimony. Much appreciated. Mr. Pullin?
The next witnesses to testify are Megan McNally, Michelle Hiett, and Brian Lang, residents of Taney Street.
Whoever wants to start first, just State your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Hi, there. This is Brian Lang. Thank you, committee for hosting this special session. As I said, my name is Brian Lang and I live on the 800 block of North Taney Street in Fairmount. I've lived in Philadelphia for years. And a little over three 12 years ago, my wife and I finally saved 13 up enough to buy our first house. We 14 were so happy and so proud to finally 15 be able to have a home of our own. 16 But it wasn't long after that our 17 pride gave way to really embarrassment 18 when we learned the history of our 19 street name Taney. 20 Because when you think about Philadelphia, it's synonymous with words like independence and freedom and love. But those words don't ring as true after learning that a street was once named in honor of a man presiding over one of the most racist and discriminatory Supreme Court rulings in our nation's history. It feels like a direct contradiction to what our city stands for. And I remember thinking, I don't want to live on that street. I work in human resources and like at many companies, where I work, we have a strong commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. And in our efforts, I've come to appreciate the difference between diversity and inclusion. Diversity means you have people from different backgrounds represented, but inclusion means those people are free to participate because they actually feel included. It's an important distinction because you can have diversity without inclusion. So you can probably imagine that if someone living on Taney street or nearby Taney learned the history behind the street name, then they might not feel very included in that community even if they lived there for 40 years. Well, I don't have to imagine that. I don't have to imagine how they might feel because I've spoken with them myself and I know how they feel and so does the rest of the Rename Taney Coalition. Together, we knocked on every single door along the North Taney block and I personally spoke to dozens and dozens of my neighbors up and down the block. I can count on one hand the amount of people who weren't into the idea, and it was mostly because they were apathetic or worried that their mail wouldn't get to them, which we all know is not going to be a problem. Instead, let me share with you the two types of responses I heard when speaking to residents of Taney Street. The first group was aware of the street name's history and they were sad or frustrated about it, but they didn't know that something could be done about it. However, as soon as we shared about the Rename Taney effort, they immediately became hopeful that a change would come. The other group of people weren't aware of the history at all, but upon hearing it, instantly, threw their support behind changing it. One moment in particular sticks to me to this day. We were knocking on doors along Taney through Fairmount and Brewerytown, and I had to pass through the athletics Rec Center, and I walked by a pickup basketball game that was going on. One of the players saw me with flyers and he stopped the game to ask, Hey, what are you doing? So I showed him and I told him about the history of Taney Street and that we were trying to get it changed. His smile immediately disappeared. He looked right at me, he said, give me those flyers. And he proceeded to walk all around the court and the park to pass them on as well. That was the moment I knew this wasn't just a good idea. This was something that people on and around Taney Street wanted. And since then that feeling has only been validated more and more. My wife had a Rename Taney sign up outside her house for about a year now. And while I'm sitting by the window, I see so many people walk by and take pictures of it. And on numerous occasions I've even had FedEx and Amazon delivery drivers tell me when delivering a package, Hey, I love your sign. I hope that happens. Now I know that Philadelphia has many challenges, big and small.
And at a previous town hall hosted by Councilmember Jeffrey Young, I heard someone wonder why given all the needs of the people in our city, why change the signs? It felt to me like they thought we needed to decide between having safe streets or renaming Taney, or decide between ensuring there's proper funding for education or rename Taney. Except I've never thought of this as an either or proposition. This is about taking an and, not an or approach. These issues are not mutually exclusive. We can do both. We're not saying those other issues aren't important and shouldn't be acted upon. They are and they should. But what we're here for today is to take definitive action on something very, very tangible that will make this a more inclusive and united city. In my life I hope to be known for what I stand for and I think all you want that, too. I want to live in a place that makes it very clear what they stand for and are very proud of it. But right now, as long as that sign bears Roger Taney's name, someone whose beliefs contradict the city's values and ideals, it sends a very conflicting message of what we stand for and it is certainly not something to be proud of. But, and here's the good news, you change that sign to LeCount, and instantly it becomes a sign of what we stand for. Equality, equity, inclusivity, education, which Caroline LeCount devoted her life to. Speaking up when you witness injustice, as Caroline LeCount did over 150 years ago, supporting others and helping them advance, which Caroline LeCount embodied. That is a street that makes you both happy and proud to live on. So I hope you will take action today and make this a reality. And I appreciate all the big and the small things you do to make this great city of Philadelphia better each day. Because as the old Tanzanian proverb goes, little by little, a little becomes a lot. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Please state your name, for the record, and proceed with your testimony.
Matthew Whitehorn. I'm a resident of 502 South Taney or Taney, whatever pronunciation we're using. I live right next to Meghan. So I've lived at 502 South Taney for years. As a college 4 history major, for me anything 5 associated with the word Taney or 6 Taney, regardless of the source of the 7 name of any particular street, 8 immediately raises an association with 9 the dreadful, no pun intended, Dred 10 Scott, U.S. Supreme Court majority 11 opinion written by Chief Justice Roger 12 Taney or Taney, very close to the 13 beginning of the Civil War. 14 That case represents the 15 low point in the history of the 16 Supreme Court in terms of racial 17 justice in this country by denying the 18 rights of citizenship to African Americans and condoning the practice of slavery. For that reason, renaming the street in honor of a Philadelphia Civil rights hero, Caroline LeCount, makes absolute sense. Thank you.
Good morning. My name is Meghan McNally. I live on the 500 block of South Taney Street and I'm here today to support the legislation to rename Taney Street to LeCount Street. Every time I write down my address, every time I see a street sign or give friends directions to my house, I have to say the name Taney. Justice Taney wrote the Dred Scott decision that stripped black Americans of their citizenship. These are daily reminders of racism that simply are not necessary. This name is something that my neighbors and I are not willing to tolerate any longer. I visited Arlington, Virginia several years ago. They renamed Lee Highway, Langston Boulevard after their first black congressman, and a school known as Washington Lee High School is now Washington Liberty High School. Neighbors and residents who didn't identify with White supremacists, Robert E. Lee, were thrilled to see the change and they quickly moved on with their lives. If Virginians can do it, we can do it too. The name Taney doesn't reflect my values of inclusion and opportunity for everyone in our community. Thanks to the renamed Taney Coalition for building support for this change. And thanks to City Council and especially Council President Johnson, Councilman Jones and Young for introducing this bill to remove a racist symbol from our city. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your testimony. Thank you. Any questions? Seeing none. Appreciated. Mr. Pullin, can you please read the next panel to testify?
Can Jaime Fontaine or Jamie Fontaine, however it's pronounced. Do we have Jaime? Okay. The next witness is -- the next witness to testify is Catherine Hicks, president of the Philadelphia branch of the NAACP.
Good morning, council members. I'm Catherine Hicks, Philadelphia branch president of the NAACP. Thank you for allowing me to be here today. I'm here in support and to give testimony of the Department of Streets Bill No. 240931 introduced by Council President Johnson, Council Members Jones and Young. I'm really excited that this is finally coming somewhat to fruition. I'm thankful first to applaud the efforts and the resilience of the Taney Street Coalition, Samaya Brown, and all who participated over the last five years to bring this to fruition. Samaya Brown brought this to the Philadelphia branch NAACP, and I want to thank those members from the NAACP that are here today in support as well. The Philadelphia NAACP stands resolutely in support of the initiative to rename Taney Street to LeCount Street. A change that reflects our commitment to justice, equality and the recognition of those who have fought tirelessly for civil rights. Roger B. Taney, the man whom the street is currently named, is notorious for his role in the Dred Scott decision. A ruling that denied citizenship and basic human rights to black Americans. His legacy is one of oppression and injustice, a stark reminder of a painful history that has inflicted deep scars on our society. We believe that honoring such a figure is incompatible with the values we strive to uphold today. In contrast, Caroline LeCount embodies the spirit of resilience and advocacy that our communities need to celebrate. Known as the Rosa Parks of Philadelphia, she was a pioneer and educator and civil rights activists who courageously challenged the status quo long before the Montgomery Bus boycott. Her relentless efforts to desegregate public street cars in the 19th century not only paved the way for greater civil rights, but also inspired countless others to join the fight for justice. Caroline LeCount, who was also the fiance of Octavius Catto, who we have a statue right here on the city hall grounds and perhaps one day we'll have one for her standing next to him was instrumental in the court case in 1867, which successfully led to the banning of segregation on public transportation. She represents a significant victory in the struggle for equality. By renaming Taney Street to LeCount Street, we honor a true champion of civil rights and ensure that the legacy of those who fought for justice is remembered and celebrated. This renaming is more than just a change of a sign. It is a powerful statement about who we are as a community and what we aspire to be. It is a step toward healing, reconciliation and the ongoing pursuit of justice for all. We urge all stakeholders to support this important initiative and to join us in recognizing the contributions of Caroline LeCount, a beacon of hope and progress in our shared history. Together, let us turn the page on a legacy of division and embrace a future that celebrates the courageous individuals who have fought for equality and justice. And I, again, just want to thank the Taney Street Coalition for bringing this to our attention. And this also just, again, shows how much we need education. But I won't say civil -- not only civil rights education, but history and black history in our schools. Because, again, they gave us this information and I hope all of you will have this. We're sharing it with our members, our families, our children, because before this I had -- I wasn't even aware of Caroline LeCount. So, you know, I find that really disheartening, but also important that we recognize the history that this city has and we make sure that we take -- we take - we hold that accountable, but also make this change so that we can be proud of the Taney Street name when it is no longer the sign, but the LeCount sign. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your testimony. Any questions? Seeing none. Much appreciated. Mr. Pullin, could you please read the next person to testify?
The next witness has testified is Dr. Guy Generals, president of the Community College of Philadelphia.
My name is Guy Generals. I would like to voice my support to remove the name of Taney and replace it with a name that adequately reflects the rich history of Philadelphia as the birthplace of American democracy. And that name should be Caroline LeCount. The name of Roger Taney invokes the darkest memory in the history of African Americans in particular and in America in general. In short, his ruling in the Dred Scott case as the chief justice of the Supreme Court set the stage for the Civil War. And more importantly, it laid the foundation or I should say equally important, it laid the foundation for the belief in white supremacy, which for far too many Americans continues to exist. The core of his infamous ruling. And I quote, A black man has no right that a white man is required to honor, infused white supremacy into the laws of the land. To him and as proclaimed by the Dred Scott ruling in 1857, African Americans were property, unworthy of the dignities of humanity. The removal of his name is especially important at Community College of Philadelphia. The Octavius Catto Scholarship is given to thousands of students each year. The scholarship is the hallmark of the college and the city of Philadelphia's commitment to racial and social justice, to economic and educational access. Octavius Catto was a young scholar attending the Institute for Colored Youth, now Taney University during the time of the Dred Scott decision. He was an activist who worked towards social justice. He supported the fight to end slavery and the Civil War. And he fought in favor of the Civil War to end slavery, and he died engaging blacks in their right to vote. On election day 1871, he was assassinated. Octavius Catto and Caroline LeCount were engaged, but they never made it down the aisle. An assassin's bullet took Octavius life just after the activist cast his ballot at a polling place in 1871. He was 32-years-old. Ms. LeCount, an educator, carried the mission forward, fighting for freedom and equity. I believe we dishonor their legacies by allowing that name to stand. I have students and faculty who live on those blocks and are embarrassed that the name has not been removed. So on behalf of our students and the importance of knowing and understanding our history, because this is an educational moment, I am asking that the name of Taney be removed and changed to Caroline Rebecca LeCount. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Generals. Any questions? Seeing none. Mr. Pullin, can you please read the next person to testify?
The next witnesses to testify are Fasaha Traylor, Leo Vaccaro and Keisha UsherMartin.
Whoever wants to start, we could just start by stating your name, for the record, and then you can proceed with your testimony and we'll go through the pattern.
Good morning. My name is Fasaha Traylor, co-author of the book, "They Carried Us: The Social Impact of Philadelphia's Black Women Leaders," published in 2020. Caroline LeCount was one of the 95 black women we profiled in our book. And I congratulate council for moving forward with changing the name of Taney Street to LeCount Street. That is certainly important. But I also want to encourage you not to think of this as a routine end point, just a street sign or the end of council's involvement. As our country prepares to celebrate the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, and Philadelphia250 shines a spotlight on the meaning of the Declaration to Philadelphia, council should consider showcasing how the renaming of Taney Street fits into our country's long, hard, yet still unfinished journey from white supremacy to equality. This act by council is something we should all be proud of and something we should all claim as a meaningful part of our civil legacy. Council could help us integrate the thinking embodied in the name change as part of the inheritance of equality. Council could issue a proclamation written by a leading Philadelphia historian entitled Why Taney Street Disappeared. This document could be distributed to all Philadelphia high schools and focus on how Justice Roger B. Taney's belief in segregation and white supremacy set our country back and put us on the path to the Civil War. Council could issue a call for students to develop essays or visual arts pieces about the life of Caroline LeCount. Essays and visual art could focus on her staunch belief in human equality and her actions to bring that belief into being. Philadelphians should know about her decades long commitment to educating black students in Philadelphia's segregated schools and advocating for the black teachers who bore the burden of teaching them within a segregated system. Council could organize a hearing, possibly televised by WHYY, linking Caroline LeCount's community activism to segregate street -- to desegregate street cars in Philadelphia with the community activism led by renamed Taney. Joining hands across many decades of the city's history, both Caroline LeCount and Rename Taney's activism are examples of how community activism can move our country forward. Far be it from me to suggest how these efforts might be accomplished, but here are a few ideas. Maybe Education Committee and Parks, Recreation and Cultural Affairs could collaborate on a plan to bring ideas like these to life. These or other committees could seek to collaborate with Philadelphia250 to highlight where the street name change fits in the long march to the equality articulated in the Declaration. Council members from the three districts whose ascent was required could, along with folks from the Rename Taney Coalition form a kind of speakers bureau to inform all Philadelphians about the importance of taking this action and how relevant it is to Philadelphia250. That's just the beginning of a list that I hope you will add to. So thank you for taking this action. I will resist the temptation to add finally. And congratulations once again.
Thank you. Whoever wants to go, just state your name and then proceed.
Yes. Good morning. I am Keisha Usher- Martin, a 17-year resident on Bainbridge Street, and prior vice chair of SOSNA, which is a South of South Neighborhood Association, who -- and I have advocated and supported renaming the street to honor Philadelphians heroine Caroline LeCount. When I first met Ben Keys, I already knew of Justice Taney and the horrific and personally painful Dred Scott decision. It is one of the first cases taught to first year law students in constitutional law. When I moved to Bainbridge Street, I was appalled that my neighborhood street, park and youth softball league were all named to honor Roger Taney. However, like others, I was unaware that it could be changed. And here I was some years 16 later as a lawyer and a mother 17 presented with a unique opportunity to 18 make a change. One that I was able to 19 experience with my children. 20 Neighbors in Devil's Pocket joined the Rename Taney Street Coalition, petitioning for support in this rename. While they -- while the Rename Coalition has generated public interest, we still need City Council's approval. Your voice carries significant weight in this effort, and we welcome any support you can offer. This renaming would honor Ms. LeCount who played a pivotal role in desegregating Philadelphia's trolley lines. And it would send a powerful message to the children growing up in our community. It reinforces the values of diversity and inclusion specifically, inspiring the next generation to stand against injustice. I have taken my children and my niece with me during these public outreaches. The children of our community are well aware and knowledgeable of their ability to use their voices to enact change. And in this instance, I ask you to use yours. Our neighborhood from young to old are doing the right -- doing the work to right these historical wrongs. Years later, my 5th grade -- my then 5th grade niece was a part of the student led name change of Chester Arthur School. She, because of her experiences with me, nominated and gained school support for her nomination of Caroline LeCount as a potential name for the school. Then in 2023, thanks to this student-led petition to the school board, the name was then officially changed from Chester Arthur School to Marian Anderson Neighborhood Academy in July 2023. So although Caroline LeCount didn't get that honor, she still has the opportunity to have an honor within our community. One that our children have been made aware of and wholly support. Our neighborhood has been making many changes in the last several years. 2023, we had the renaming of Chester Arthur, and we also had the renaming of Christian Street from to 20th as Black 6 Doctors Row. And the honorary 7 renaming recently of the 900 block of 8 17th Street to honor the school guard 9 at Stanton, Ms. Geraldine Graves on 10 just October 19th. 11 This reflects our 12 community's commitment and youth 13 awareness to recognizing and 14 celebrating our black and American 15 history. Changing Taney Street or Taney Street to honor Ms. Caroline LeCount exemplifies our dedication to progress and fostering pride and unity in a way that will benefit future generations. Ms. Caroline LeCount is often compared to Rosa Parks in Ms. Parks fight to integrate the Montgomery bus system. However, I would counter that Ms. LeCount being 95 years prior to Ms. Parks in 1955, stands on her own and has no 5 comparison. Your vote will be a catalyst to continual change in a way that will bring pride to Philadelphians and especially to the children of Philadelphia. Your vote can affect the loss of emotional safety felt by the black community in our heavily gentrified Graduate Hospital neighborhood.
Also, your vote will bring awareness to the white community who is in the progress of gentrifying, but also bring awareness to the white children who could be future gentrifiers and will learn the respectable way of being included in a new a community that has already been built by black people. And that is my conclusion. Thank you for your support.
Oh, hold on. Please state your name, for the record, and proceed. MR VACCARO: Thank you. Hello, I'm Leo Vaccaro. I'm a member of Rename Taney and I'm a high school history teacher. And I over-prepared like a typical teacher. So I am going to skip my preamble and get into echo some of the statements. I'm also very fortunate that we were able to convince a bunch of historians like Dr. Generals who spoke earlier, Fasaha, to my right, and also Dan Biddle, who wrote the book about Octavius Catto, is going to talk in a minute. And I believe Dan is actually one of the few people, who met someone who met Caroline LeCount. So he's our closest connection that I know of to Caroline LeCount. As a history teacher, and I appreciate you having this meeting and listening to our testimony. It means a lot to us to have this opportunity to talk about Philadelphia history. As a teacher, I believe, that the Civil Rights Movement of the Civil War era is tremendously important. Knowing how Americans of that generation freed themselves from enslavement with the 13th Amendment, demanded their right to vote with the 15th Amendment, and most significantly fought for the equal protection of the law with the 14th Amendment, is the most profound story in American history, even more authentically so than was the case here in 1776. And that's why I'm so excited to be part of this effort to rename Taney Street for one of Philadelphia's own freedom fighters, Caroline LeCount. Please allow me to talk a little bit of history about who LeCount was and who she was in the Philadelphia community. Carrie, as she was often known, was born in Philadelphia February 26th, 1846 to parents, James and Sarah. It has been claimed that her father James, a cabinet maker, helped people escape enslavement on the Underground Railroad. I assume that this had a great effect on Carrie. At a time when most African Americans were prohibited from receiving an education, LeCount mastered geometry, trigonometry, Greek and Latin at the Institute of Colored Youth, now known as Cheney University, the first HBCU. During these -- where she actually was the valedictorian in 1863. During the Civil War and Reconstruction, LeCount helped run the Ladies Union Association, an association of African American women in Philadelphia that sent supplies to the troops in the Civil War, and also up at Camp William Penn in what's now Cheltenham. Shortly after her graduation, she became a teacher and eventually a principal. Determination, passion and academic strength, LeCount was a force to be reckoned with in the classroom as well as in society. In March, 1867, when she was just 21-years-old, LeCount became Philadelphia's Rosa Parks when she personally confronted a streetcar operator and enforced the integration of public transportation. Similar to Rosa Parks, LeCount was acting as part of a larger organization as a political agent in cooperation with allies in the vibrant Philadelphia black community, which in those days was centered in the Seventh Ward. When her beloved fiance Octavius Catto was gunned down while voting in 1871, LeCount wept bitterly over his loss and never married. And it gives me great honor to be able to quote LeCount's words directly from an 1873 interview, which stood in direct opposition to the Dred Scott decision of 1857, where she said, "to be intelligent is to understand the laws of the land. " Her statement stood in opposition to the Dred Scott decision, which helped bring this country into civil war as we talked about. Also, through this process I spent some time in Philadelphia city archives at the free library with a lot of support looking through why that change actually took place. And it's an unfortunate thing that I'm very grateful that we're looking to finally change it. There were 971 or so streets that were changed after the consolidation of the city.
And it appears as though our city leaders just chose a whole lot of political names and continuation of other street names, and it's unfortunate that they chose Roger Taney. Personally, collaborating with archivists, historians, community members, led me to work with an artist to create that coloring book that you have in your hands now. And we, as Fasaha was talking about, we are eager to continue these efforts to get that education into our schools to make sure that people understand the history and to get people excited about the fact that we are now -- we now have this opportunity to honor Caroline LeCount. So thank you for listening to my lesson plan and thank you for allowing me to speak on this.
Thank you all for your testimony. Councilmember Harrity?
Thank you, Councilman. I just want to say thank you for testifying. You know, I consider myself a little bit of a student of history. And it's kind of funny, I grew up in the Devil's Pocket, that's where my mother's from. I spent a lot of time as a young man living at my grandmother's house, played at Taney Park and terrorized that neighborhood as a child. So I'm always glad and makes me smile when I hear references to it, especially nowadays where you don't hear it too often. But I thank you for your testimony and, you know, this is -- the fact that this was allowed to go on for so long is just a travesty in itself. And, you know, as the teacher has said that maybe we take this as a learning experience and take this as a chance to try to get some of this information into our schools and to our children. I remember learning about the Dred Scott decision when I was in school, but, you know, the whole chapter on civil rights and the struggles was about it one chapter, you know what I mean? That doesn't give you much information. So I'm glad that we're taking these steps now. I'm glad that council president and my colleagues put this bill in. It's just amazing, I mean, I literally grew up running around on Taney Street and never knew that it was named after the guy that made the Dred Scott decision. So you learn something new everyday and I'm going to take this as a learning experience and hopefully me and my colleagues can build on it. Thank you.
Yes. Thank you so much for your testimony. For everybody, I've been learning these nuggets of information, I did not know that she was the fiance of Octavius Catto. And that just makes it even more poignant, you know, knowing they both were in the struggle. I just wanted to commend Ms. Traylor for laying out a communications plan. So we find -- I find, being on city council and engaging with constituents, how little people know of all the things that are happening. It's very hard to keep track of everything. But I think sending a message from our city, from city council, from all of us to the world, I think is an excellent plan. And I would love to follow up with you to kind of see some elements of what we can or cannot do. But I think connecting this to the 250 -- 250th anniversary is an excellent point of how we still are moving to for a more perfect union, right? We are still continuing that path. So thank you. I just wanted to say publicly to all of you, thank you for all this information, and most importantly. Thank the thought behind all of this. Appreciate it. Thank you, chair.
Thank you. Any other questions? Seeing none. Thank you so much for your testimony. Do we have anybody else to testify?
We have one more panel and then -- the next witness to testify are Stan Horowitz, Dan Biddle and Anyabwile Love.
Thank you so much for being here to testify. Just state your name, for the record, and then you can proceed.
Okay. Hi. Good morning. My name is Stan Horowitz, and I am here with the Rename Taney Street Coalition to support passage of Bill 240931 to rename Taney Street to LeCount Street. I live in Fairmount in 2601 Parkway Building. It's the art deco building across from the art museum. If that building wasn't there, Taney Street would have a 500 block of North Taney Street. So thanks to my building being there, Taney Street gets cut off north of the Parkway before it resumes south of the Parkway around Pine Street. So my interest in renaming -- in this renaming effort comes from quite a few years more than I should have of cutting class when I was in northeast Philly and coming down to the Central Library and studying America's interesting history and how it revolved around Philadelphia. And I learned of Philadelphia's rich history -- Philadelphia has a rich history in the civil rights movement that even goes back before the Declaration of Independence was signed. So we're not new to being abolitionist at all. When Harriet Tubman helped conduct the Underground Railroad, it was here in Philadelphia where it ended up and where a lot of slaves achieved their freedom. So the directly -- the deeply racist history surrounding Chief Justice Roger Taney should preclude him from ever being honored with a street or any other public structure named after him. Renaming Taney Street after South Philly educator and civil rights advocate, Caroline LeCount, who was ahead of her time will allow a monster in our country's troubling racist past to be relegated to history books while honoring a Philadelphian who is well- deserving of this recognition for her civil rights advocacy. And it is aligned with Philadelphia's history in the movement to abolish slavery. And it's not on -- unprecedented, I'm thinking of Fannie Jackson Coppin School, which was renamed a few years ago, that's in South Philly from being Andrew Jackson School. So I'm asking that City Council rename every segment of Taney Street as per bill 240931. And thank you and thanks for your time.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Please state your name and then proceed.
My name is Dan Biddle. " To research this book, Murray and I needed to learn not only about Octavius Catto's remarkable and short life, but the lives of the men and women around him in a civil rights struggle, which as other witnesses have said so well echoed of what we know about the modern civil rights struggle. And you've already heard several great witnesses liken Caroline LeCount to the Great Rosa Parks. Since so much has already been said today, and so well, I just want to see if I can add a few facts about who she was and who was around her. It's been mentioned that she was from an Underground Railroad family and that her father, James LeCount, was an undertaker and a carpenter. We learned, Murray and I, that in the 1840s and 50s in black Philadelphia, which was already a thriving community at that time, hard to believe that it took us as a city, another 150 years or so to honor even one black Philadelphian with a statue on public property. But Caroline's family was one of the backbones of black Philadelphia back then. And as was mentioned James, her father and the whole family were activists in the Underground Railroad. Easy to say now, back then it was putting their lives on the line. A story that got handed down through generations of Caroline LeCount's family was that in the 1850s, kids in the LeCount house, which was on what is now Bainbridge Street, about 9th and Bainbridge, were playing a game of hide and seek. And some of the kids sneaked into the room 15 that James LeCount used for the freshly sawed and nailed coffins that he made for his trade as a carpenter and undertaker, and climbed into one of the newly made coffins and discovered that there was a man in there, a live man. The LeCount family calls all the kids together for a special meeting and tells them they must never tell anyone this story, and explained to the kids that the man in there was a fugitive from slavery. Lucky for us the kids grew up and told that story. Another thing that's been mentioned is how she was such a fiery educator. We learned and we kept -- we kept learning things. We thought why didn't we learn this in high school or college? By the time Caroline became only the second black school principal in the city's history in the mid-1860s, there had already been a line of black school leaders who were very serious educators by day. And if you'll pardon the expression, badass civil rights activists by night. Charles Reason, Ebenezer Bassett, Octavius Catto's best friend, Jacob White, Fanny Coppin, who's already been mentioned today, every one of them, tough educators and fearless equal rights activists. The episode that we've talked about on a March day in 1867 was at about lunchtime on a cold clear day. Ms. LeCount by then the principal of a black school called the Ohio Street School, and her assistant principal, Alice Gordon, also a woman of color, neither of them out of their early twenties. This was mentioned. Caroline was all of 21, walked to the corner of 11th and Lombard and flagged down a yellow streetcar. And happened over and over and over in that era, the conductor not only refused them entrance, but shouted the n-word at them. LeCount at age already 20 knew that in Harrisburg, Octavius 21 Catto and Jake White and other early lobbyists in that battle to integrate the street cars had persuaded just enough Republican legislators, that's when the Republican Party stood for something completely different from today. Persuaded just enough to pass a law that forever outlawed discrimination on public transportation in the city of Philadelphia. But the word hadn't made it to the courts and the judges of Philadelphia. So when LeCount at age 21, takes her case to court and tries to persuade a judge to penalize and impose a fine upon the driver and his company, and that was at a time when the streetcar companies were powerful political forces, the judge turns her away and says that he knows of no such change in the law.
Murray and I for our work, tried to imagine what that must have been like. To go back to when the city's courts were run entirely by men, white men. And to have two young women of color stand up in that courtroom and try to tell a white male judge that he was wrong. I think it's hard for us looking back to imagine how much courage that took. And LeCount didn't stop when the judge turned her away. She already knew what to do. She made her way to a state office and obtained a certified copy of the brand new law. You know, today, we might do that on a cell phone. We might use a Xerox machine, it might take a few minutes. I used to be a reporter here for the Inquirer, and I remember when in this building, getting a Xerox copy took a few hours. But LeCount gets that copy quickly enough to bring it back before the magistrate who hems and haws, and finally agrees that she's right and orders against the streetcar company and forces the company and the driver to pay a fine and makes history. That moment in that little courtroom is instantly celebrated all through the civil rights movement of those days. And it's been mentioned how an awful moment in Caroline LeCount's life that we -- that we know something about was the day in 1871 in this city, when her fiance Octavius Catto was assassinated in the midst of trying to protect black voters in one of their very first opportunities to exercise true political power. It's easy to imagine if you had been in her shoes, that to be all but standing next to that act of violence, you might decide to give up your civil rights activism. Caroline LeCount, like the other men and women of that movement, and the -- and the men and women of the modern civil rights movement that we know better, the great John Lewis, Rosa Parks, the great Dr. King, like those people, LeCount went right back at it. She goes on not only to be the principal of a black school for the next 40 years or so, she continues to make an argument that her fiance had made, that public schools need to hire black teachers to teach black students. Because as Catto said, and as she echoed in a speech in 1902, black teachers bring to black students an experience from outside the classroom that even the best white teacher cannot. That wasn't all she did. As another speaker mentioned, she helped lead a little organization of black women in support of the Union Army here in Philadelphia, and that wasn't all they did. As soon as northern soldiers began liberating portion to the south from the Confederacy and from the system of enslavement, there was a huge need to supply those parts of the country with basic tools of education for the millions of Americans who had just come out of enslavement and who had been denied any form of education for generations. Among the records that Murray and I looked at for our book was the list that Caroline and her allies put together from donations in about 1865, school supplies to send into the south. One of the items that got donated, then she helped get sent down there, 1,200 slates, 1,200 little blackboards for children and adults in the south to learn with. She also, when we had the Centennial here in town, she was part of a committee of black women who tried to contribute to that event and help organize it. And a committee of upper-class White women that had a big role in creating the Centennial turned them away. And lucky for us, thanks to newspaper accounts at the time, we've got the words that Caroline gave to a reporter back when the leader of that white women's committee suggested to these outspoken black women, that if they didn't like the way things were run here, maybe they could remand to Africa. LeCount said, in reaction to that, "the word remand is fraught with the most painful associations and it is only those who have suffered as we have that can fully understand it. " I know we've already gone long. I'll just mention one other thing.
As Leo, bless his heart, mentioned, you know, you don't expect that two authors trying to pull a book together in the 2000s would be able to interview anyone from that era. Anyone who knew the heroes of that civil rights struggle. But Murray and I got to do that. We learned that there was a woman living at about 20th and Fitzwater named Lily Dickerson, rest in peace, who by the time we went to see her was 101-years-old. And we had been told by others that Lily knew people who had been involved in that struggle, knew people who had known Octavius Catto when he was still living. And we had the high honor of sitting with her and going over a list of names with her. And at one point, Murray asked her if she knew the name, Caroline LeCount. Lily Dickerson, 101, her eyes lit up and she smiled and she said to us, Linnie. She had known Caroline LeCount when Caroline was 60 and 70 and 80-years-old by a different nickname from the name that turned up in 19th Century records Linnie LeCount. By the time Lily was a young woman growing up in Philadelphia, Caroline was a distinguished leader in black Philadelphia and still an agitator for equal rights. B. Du Bois and Caroline Rebecca LeCount. I just say one more thing. Every time Murray and I get to read from our book for an audience, we lament that all this history has not previously been learned and taught. And we like to talk about how the LeCounts and the Cattos and the Whites and the Fanny Coppins and all the other heroes of that early civil rights movement, quite often came back from their marches or their meetings with their heads bloodied, like John Lewis was in 1965, or their bones broken, like Frederick Douglass in 1857, but they went back for more. And the fact that most Americans don't know their stories is a crime. But the fact that you can change the name now and take down the name of the odious Roger Taney and put up the name of Caroline LeCount is an opportunity to help change that.
Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. And I saw Murray was also here. It's amazing when you look at the history and you even see the relationship with Catto -- Octavius Catto and what that meant to the city of Philadelphia, especially these times right now when you talk about voting and people participating in voting and how important that is and to somebody who gave their life for willingness and the right to vote. And yet, we still have a lot of people out there that do not participate in that right. And so it's a -- it's a fascinating part and I really appreciate the history that you have done and the information that you have provided as part of this testimony. So thank you.
Any questions? Seeing none. Is there anyone else here to testify, Mr. Pullin?
Is there anyone who was not called that would like to testify on Bill No. 6 240931? Seeing none. We confirmed that there's none.
Yeah. I would like to thank all the witnesses for joining us today and we'll now end the public hearing and go into a public meeting. I'll now note for the record that a quorum of committee is present. Councilmember Harrity to my left and COUNCILWOMAN BROOKS, COUNCILWOMAN AHMAD and COUNCILWOMAN BASS, the quorum is now present chair recognized. Councilmember Harrity for a motion on Bill No. 240931.
Thank you, Chair. And I move that the Bill No. 240931 be reported from this committee with a highly favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of counsel.
Noted for the record. Councilwoman Bass second. It has been moved and properly seconded that the Bill No. 19 240931 be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of council be suspended to admit the first reading of this bill at the next session of council. All those in favor of the motion will signify by saying aye. COUNCIL MEMBERS: Aye.
Aye. Those opposed? Ayes have it. And the motion carries. Favorable recommendation with the request that the rules of councils be suspended to permit the first reading at the next session of council. This will conclude the business before the Committee on Streets and Service today. Thank you very much for your attendance and participation. Great job. (Proceedings concluded at 12:30 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me of the above case, and this copy is a correct transcript of the same. _______________ Samanda J. Rios