like in the 1970s that would be relevant
what it probably looks like now
isn't well if you look at that
living room there's a
so at this
point I do agree with Mr. Reuter on
this so if you're going to bring on your
other client to talk about the 70s then we
can do that
all right we will hold off for Mr. Hoy on those
questions
As far as you know, Mr. Kovallis, has this property ever been utilized for anything other than a single family residence?
No. So, you know, my entire lifetime has never been used for anything other than a single family residence.
And did you hear my opening statement?
I did.
Is it true and correct?
do you adopt my statement as your testimony i do i'd like to call him richard hoy
should only be a couple uh mr kobolis uh could you restate the the address that you reside in
where do you live now can you hear me yes oh i'm sorry okay i thought i was on mute again um
I live at 440 East Woodlaunch Street.
And how long have you lived at that property?
So I've lived here since 1987.
My family's owned it since 1958.
And since you've lived at 440, would you agree that the property has not been used by the Society for Christians' Consciousness?
It has not.
Okay. And as long as you've lived there, as you've just testified, it's been, to the best of your knowledge, used as a single family property.
Right. So, I mean, again, Mr. Chairman, I object because I don't understand the relevance. It wasn't relevant for him to talk about the floor plans. Now, I don't know why it's relevant for him to talk about the use in 1987.
okay so mr reuter said that the time period in place okay okay great so so let me then so we'll
strike that and then the next question then is then uh mr covalis then you would agree that you
have no personal knowledge whatsoever of whether the prior use uh of the property um was a religious
use uh or not whether it was a house of worship or religious use or anything along those lines you
you don't have any idea what the prior occupancy of the house was do you in what time period
before you lived there um well i'm based on talking to neighbors for example honey
okay objection to hearsay yeah yeah if you have the knowledge you personally i i do not personally
i was not here during the time period okay and at the time you learned that the cmx3 uses were
uh permitted for this property you had at that time you did you were not aware of any prior use
of the property i'm sorry can you restate at the at the time you learned of this that the cmx3 use
had been uh approved because the historical commission had certified the prior uh religious
use of the property that you didn't you didn't know that at the time right this is it's something
that you learned of after the fact there's no public notification necessary for historical
certification so we kind of we had no idea that this had happened until the zoning permit was
issued but you yourself had to seek out somebody else who might have had that knowledge you didn't
have knowledge of what the prior use of the property is i mean i think i think you looked
at the the zoning records yeah i mean i did look at the zoning records you know i that whole docket
is like filed on the city website so i mean you know i looked through all that and that's how i
was able to file the zoning appeal okay no further questions mr phillips i have no questions all
Thank you. Mr. Mattione, your next witness. Yes, Richard Hoy.
Good morning, Mr. Hoy.
Richard I see no one in the audience no no I think he's with Mr. Cavallis I'm sorry
Richard.
he is with Mr. Cavallis I apologize it's okay Mr. Hoy
I think Mr. Cavallis will have to be re-elevated so what I did was I called in on my telephone
You need to unmute 215-435-2875, please.
Phone number ending in 2875 has been allowed to speak.
Please unmute yourself.
Richard, can you hear?
Hi, can you hear Richard?
he must have himself muted um star six to unmute is it
sorry i'm trying to do this where i called him and i merged the call
so it might not be porting over i'm not sure he he should be able to just
he's already been elevated that number is elevated so he's called in he just needs to unmute
star six you said i believe it's star is it star six to unmute or is it star nine
star six to unmute star nine to raise your hand star six to unmute hello can you hear yes hi mr
hoy could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer okay my name is richard
W. Hoy, Esquire, R-I-C-H-A-R-D-W-H-O-Y.
All right.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Please proceed, Mr. Mattioni.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hoy, did you reside at 403?
When did you reside at 403 East Woodlawn Street?
I resided at 403 Woodlawn Street since the day I was born on January 25th, 1948, till up to 1999.
And where is 403 Woodlawn in conjunction with 424 East Woodlawn Street?
It's just about catty corners across the street from it.
I don't know if you can see the map, but I have the map up on the screen, and I'm pointing to 403 and then to 424,
and they are on the same street, same block.
They're across the street.
And have you ever been in the residence of 424 East Woodlawn Street?
Numerous times because for various reasons.
And I have placed what's Exhibit 7 on the screen,
which is the floor plans that were presented earlier.
Now, you've been in this property many times over many years, correct?
Correct.
hundreds of times. And I know you've seen the floor plans. Do they accurately reflect the
layout when you were in it? With the exception of that bathroom downstairs
in the office, the floor plans are accurate. That bathroom was added years later when I wasn't there.
These reflect the conditions from 1973 to 1977 inside the structure?
Definitely.
Until the 1970s, was the property used as a residence?
It was used as a residence up until the Hobers left.
And then the family moved in right when the Hobers left in 1969, I think it was.
And then the Christians moved in after the family moved in with children.
And the Christians moved in in 1973, correct?
Something right around that date.
The family moved out and they moved in.
The Christians moved in.
During this time period, 1973 to 1977, were you the president of the local civic association?
yes i was and did you get concerns raised by the use in 1973 to 77 by neighbors
i had numerous complaints from all the neighbors on the street and across the street and even in
the back of the property up on church lane everybody complained and as president of the
Civic Association, you would get the complaints? Yes, I would. And what were the complaints?
The complaints were they were using this property as a rooming house. There were numerous people.
as a rooming house there were numerous people staying there living there and just object for
the record to hearsay but go ahead just for the record i'll excuse me thank you and there's no
hearsay i saw it okay well then the witness should testify about what he saw not what other people
told them they saw we were going to go ahead that's fine it's just i don't want to delay things
That's OK. Other people complained to me and then I went and saw it myself.
And what uses did you find being conducted there?
The uses were a rooming house with 50 or more people living in it.
The deplorable condition of the way it was kept.
Rats, numerous rats and vermin.
The neighbors complained about them. And then I saw them myself. And L&I came with reference to the problems. And I conducted an inspection with the L&I people in the house. And it was horrendous.
I mean, the rats were running around the porch in the house, and it was just a deplorable place.
Bed mattings and stuff in all the rooms, numerous people living there, and it's just a deplorable condition in the house.
So there was a use permit.
I went in and saw it.
And there was a use permit granted for a church on April 23rd, 1975.
But to your knowledge, as a longtime resident, civic association president, you know, person who everybody in the community turned to, did you ever see this property used as a church?
It was never used as a church as long as I was there.
And the zoning code defines religious assembly as religious services involving public assembly that customarily occur in synagogues, temples, mosques, churches, and other facilities used for religious worship.
Based upon your own personal observation, did you ever see any of these uses at 424 East Whitlam Street at any time, including specifically 1973 to 1977?
Specifically at that time and other times, I never saw any religious services being conducted there as normal religious services are conducted at either a mosque or a church or a synagogue.
And were there any signs or advertisements showing the use of the church?
nothing was ever posted outside nothing was ever distributed to anybody in the neighborhood
to me and it it it all it had was the number on the house 424 that's it nothing
and like you said did l and i come out and investigate the uses
l and i with a complaint came out and two l and i inspectors and i
entered the house with the permission of the Krishna people who were there.
And that's where we saw all the condition of the house inside.
There was no religious room for services or anything.
It was just all bedding all over the place.
All the rooms had mats in it, not beds, but they slept on mats.
and they had a kitchen in the back of it
where they cooked all vegetarian things
and then the condition of the rats running around
in the house and outside of the house.
Was there anything inside to show you
that this was any kind of a religious assembly use?
No, nothing, no, like statues in the church
or signs or anything like that in there,
like a normal church or synagogue or a mosque would have.
So in the 52 years that you lived across the street from this property,
you never saw anything that amounts to a religious assembly use as defined in the code?
Yeah, never during the 70s.
And after they moved out, the new family came in and cleaned it up very much.
The neighbors loved them.
They were a great family.
But up until the time that the Christians were there, it was horrendous.
And afterwards, when they left, the house turned back into a decent home in the neighborhood.
So based upon your personal observations during this period, 1973 to 1977, what would you describe the use as?
The use was a rooming house.
They were coming, not a church, they would come and go daily, they'd go out, whoever they went to, I don't know, and it would follow them.
daily they'd go out to wherever they went to i don't know and it'll follow them they went out
to where there are different sites and stuff they went to and then they would come in and and and
live there i have no further questions for mr hoyt rose examined by either attorney sure uh just a
couple questions um mr hoyt um you stated several times i think uh on questioning that you did not
see any religious activities at the house that you would that would similar be similar to those
of a church a synagogue or a mosque is that right that's correct right is it your understanding that
only uh churches synagogues and mosques would constitute a legitimate religious use
Jackson that's not what I said oh well wait wait wait wait I I think Mr. Reuter can ask that
question but the code has a specific definition i'll get well maybe i'll address that first the
code now says may have that language uh what we don't nobody has testified or there's been no
evidence introduced about what the code required back in the 1970s or whether the code defined
religious use or house of worship at all in the 1970s and i can say uh as an officer of the court
There was no definition for house of worship or religious use in the code, in the zoning code in the 1970s.
So, but moving on, that's probably more for closing argument.
Mr. Hoyt, when you say that you saw no religious activities that were, you know, similar to what you would find in a church, a synagogue, or a mosque,
Do you know whether there are any religious activities taking place
that would not have been consistent with a church, synagogue, or mosque?
Like what?
Well, are you aware that there are other religious practices
that take place that are not within churches, synagogues, or mosques?
Well, they were collecting money wherever they were.
They had a money counting room.
They were feeding people.
They had a huge kitchen in the back where they cooked and they served vegetarian food in the back.
But when you talk about religious activities as to what I explained before, that happens in a church, that happens in a synagogue, and happens in a mosque where what you call worship of a deity.
uh i saw nothing like that in there nothing that was familiar to your understanding of that
is that would that be fair to say what would be is that just my would be the definition
of of religious activity when it comes to worship and people coming in and gathering together uh
as in the synagogue or mosque, and communal worship, I never saw that.
When you were at the property back in the 1970s with El and I,
how did you know that the people in there were members of the Society for Krishna Consciousness?
Well, just like I would know if I went in and saw a priest or a nun with their religious garb in their respective places,
The Krishnas had a dress, a special dress they dressed as, with long flowering robes and different beads and stuff around their neck.
You could distinguish them who they were as to, like you would distinguish a priest or a nun or a minister.
And they were dressed that way while they were living at the property?
they were they were they dressed that way where wherever they went they went out into the street
during the day wherever they went and when they came back home they dressed that way when they
were living in the house all right thank you i have no further questions mr phillips yeah
mr hoy uh would it be safe to say you are not a devotee of the uh of kushnu uh religion
no respectfully i'm not a devotee of them i belong to another religion
okay um and you said uh people would come and go from the property is that right
people the krishnas would come and go you know they would come there and um live there and then
they would go out every day they went out and begged and i saw them begging at places