in the Germantown area and also in Center City, Philadelphia,
where I worked at an establishment in Center City, Philadelphia.
at an establishment in Center City, Philadelphia.
I saw them on the streets of Market Street.
I saw them on the streets of...
I saw them on the streets of Broad Street.
I saw them all over in Germantown begging money
and then coming back home to the Krishna Center.
The individuals that you saw coming and going,
you don't know for a fact who lived there and who didn't.
Isn't that fair to say?
Excuse me, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
Wouldn't it be fair to say of the individuals that you would see coming and going, you don't know for a fact who lived there and slept there and who did not?
I knew certain people that I had met that lived there.
They went out and begged money.
I knew them.
I saw them there.
I didn't know them by name, but I saw their faces.
I knew what they were.
are you versed in uh um what it means to be a krishna and how they worship
i have an idea from um because i had a friend that was in it uh was a member of it and um
how they dress i saw them how they dress and how they worship yes i know how they worshiped
um they do chanting and stuff like that did you ever hear individuals chanting from the house
oh yes we heard chanting and they would sing and um and have their meals and um you know
neighbors could hear them and vegetarianism in uh dedicating time to eating vegetarian meals
as part of the Krishna worship and study.
Isn't that correct?
That's correct.
And that's why also they wouldn't do anything with the rats.
They protected animals and they considered the rats to be protected.
And they let the rats roam all over the place
and into neighbors' yards and neighbors' basements.
And the rats were roaming because they wouldn't control it.
uh mr have you ever been to a um a uh buddhist monastery
excuse me a buddhist monastery yes have you ever been into into a buddhist uh house of worship
i have personally never been to a buddhist house of worship have you ever been uh setting aside
this property have you ever been uh in a hindu uh house of worship never been to a hindu house
of worship okay you ever been into a zoroastrian house of worship most definitely never been to
a zoroastrian house of worship either uh would you agree with me that the that the three um
hinduism buddhism zoroastrianism are uh recognized religions in the world in my study of religions
in school, yes, they're Eastern religions, like India and places like that, and China
and Southeast Asia. And the way that Eastern religions worship might be different than the
way Judeo-Christian religions worship, isn't that fair to say? Well, there's definitely differences.
there's a difference between a Roman Catholic and a Protestant worship.
All religions have different forms of worship.
It's just not in Judeo-Christian worship, generally, where we wake up at four in the morning,
we chant, we eat vegetarian meals, we shave our head, we go out to the community to seek charity.
Some of those things might be recognized in Judeo-Christian religions,
but others might not be, and they're recognized in Eastern religions.
Isn't that fair to say?
Well, also in the Roman Catholic religion,
you have monks who live in a monastery that rise at 2 o'clock in the morning
and pray and then go back to sleep and rise again at 5 and pray,
and also monks that make their own food and stuff like that.
But they're still Roman Catholic, even though they don't have the exact form that they have in a local parish church.
Yes, there's differences in religion, but everybody, religions have to get together and assemble to like a meeting or something like that to do their worshiping.
And that was not the case there.
That was not the case there.
They were just using it as a room and house.
They were just using this at a room and house.
Would you believe that at a convent, nuns worship at a convent?
Nuns have, most convents have chapels where the sisters, the reverend sisters have mass and conduct the rosaries and things like that.
And you would consider that a house of worship, correct?
I would consider it a religious house, but there's certain restrictions.
The nuns don't open the doors and invite the public in.
It's private in the house.
They only have it for their members, where this place had no inviting people in for worship.
whatever they did inside
but they're sleeping
and collecting money
and living there
there was no like
come in here for
Krishna worship or anything like that
nothing like that
I don't have any further questions
thank you
Mr. Mattione do you have any more
I have no further witnesses Mr. Chairman
okay so Leonard do you want to bring on
the historical commission
Sure. Very briefly, if I could call Dr. Jonathan Farman.
Farnham. Sorry, John.
John Farnham has been allowed to speak.
Sir, could you please state your name as spelled for the court sonographer?
Sorry, Chair, but he has disappeared.
If you give him a sec, in the meantime, Mike, you could stop sharing your screen.
I have a couple of exhibits.
Sorry, Leonard.
He's telling me he's still there.
He might have blinked out momentarily.
Yeah, I'm seeing him in the attendees list.
John, for him, if you're in the audience, please raise your virtual hand.
can you hear me now yes we can sir please state your name and spell for the course
sonographer my name is jonathan farnham j-o-n-a-t-h-a-n last name f-a-r-n-h-a-m
do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
i do please can uh leonard please proceed okay thank you uh dr farnham could you just state your
title uh i am the executive director of the philadelphia historical commission
okay and in the course and scope of your duties as the executive director did you become familiar
recently familiar with the property at 424 east woodlawn avenue uh yes okay and was that in relation
to an application seeking certification of the property
for certain exemptions from the zoning code tables?
And was this an application that was forwarded,
taken to you directly,
or was it forwarded to you through the Eclipse system?
Forwarded to me by email from Sherry Ola,
who's a code administration supervisor
at the Department of Licenses and Inspection.
Okay, I'm going to very hopefully quickly share my screen.
All right, can everybody see that?
We can, yes.
Okay, let me put these somewhere.
All right.
I'm just going to the exhibit marked C1.
These were previously provided to the board and the appellant.
Do you recognize this letter?
Yes, that's a letter that I wrote.
And in this letter, are you indicating to Ms. Ola, the court administration supervisor,
that you were able to certify the property for the exemptions set forth in Section 14602-7-A of the Philadelphia Code?
Okay. So, I think there's no dispute, but just so it's clear on the record from you as Executive Director of the Commission, the property is currently on the Register of Historic Places?
Yes, designated on May 10th, 2024.
Okay. And the property is currently zoned RSD3?
Okay, and in terms of...
And in terms of making a determination about whether the property had a prior qualifying purpose,
were you able to determine that it did fit one of the prior purposes or uses that would qualify for that exemption?
We were able to determine that.
So I'm just going to go right ahead to some of the materials looked at.
So how did you conduct your research in order to make a determination about the prior, whether it had a prior use in the public, civic and institutional use category?
Well, when the Historical Commission designated the property, it received a nomination proposing the designation that provided some background information on the property.
and then the staff of the historical commission researched the property beyond that date of the
history of the property that was used to designate it we looked at the zoning archive the zoning
records for the property so and let me interrupt you right there for a sec i'm going to exhibit
mark c2 of the city's exhibits let me see if we can
and uh do you recognize what this document is goes on for several pages yes that's a
copy of the a scanned copy of the department of licenses and inspections
zoning documents for the property okay and again i believe the appellant appellants council has
already referred to a number of these documents so this is one of the the materials that you looked
at to make a determination about the prior use of the property?
Yes, that's correct.
And would you agree that the zoning archive does indicate that it had been used as church
or house of worship?
Yes, that's what it does indicate.
And again, just so we're clear, there's no dispute that the property was, in your research,
you found no reason to disagree that the property had been used also for living,
for residential purposes. Is that right?
Yes. Our research showed that it had been used for residential purposes
for most of its history.
Okay. Now, in terms of making...
I'm just going to go through the rest of this.
So again, I don't think I need to point to any specific document here.
And again, when you look at this zoning archive,
you're not making a determination about whether any of the uses
or purposes of the property were legal or not.
You're just simply looking at whether or not, in fact,
it had been used for a particular purpose.
Yes, that is correct.
So I'm going to look at pull up another document. Is this something what can you identify what type of document this is?
This is a object to all the newspaper articles as being hearsay for the record, Mr. Chairman.
I'll note your objection, but please continue.
Sure. And I just so the record's clear that the newspaper articles that we're going to go over are being cited not for the truth of what's stated in the articles, but to simply demonstrate that these are the materials that were relied upon by Dr. Farnham in doing his research.
Understood.
So again, so Dr. Farnham, is this one of the articles you looked at?
And after reading this article, and some of the others will go after,
did you reach a conclusion that the property had been used by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness?
Okay. In fact, it was the headquarters, and I'll just abbreviate ISKCON.
It was the headquarters for ISKCON in the region, or in Philadelphia, is that right?
Yes, we found in the newspaper articles, it was referred to as the center for the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
The local headquarters, referred to as a temple, and listed as the location of that organization.
Okay, and I'm going to go to the next article.
And by the way, these articles are from the 1970s.
Would you agree?
yes the the articles that i looked at was part of the research date from 1971 to 1977. all right
Yes, the articles that I looked at as part of the research data.
and again in this article again just in terms of what the article says and what you looked at the
article in does this article indicate that 424 east woodlawn street was the local headquarters
uh yes i think it says in the right hand column uh the society's local headquarters at 424 east
wood lawn street in germantown uh in fact this article even states again based upon what you
looked at the article states that uh i don't need to spell it but bhaktivedanta
stayed at this property and he was the founder of the krishna consciousness movement is that right
uh that's what the article says i'm not an expert on the movement sure and actually mr
reuter says he will be staying near the society's local headquarters of 424 woodland street in
germantown it does not say he stayed there it says he was staying i stand corrected