COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON STREETS AND SERVICES - - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 18, 2003 10:15 a.m. - - - - RESOLUTION 040105 - Resolution authorizing City Council's Committee on Streets and Services to hold public hearings to investigate the mistreatment of animals by the carriage industry within the City of Philadelphia... PRESENT: COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO, Chair COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAIL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN RIZZO - - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X RESOLUTION 040105 PAGE CARMEN PARIS, Health Dept.......... GEORGE STEM, Philadelphia Animal Care and Control Association.... 14 EDWIN GOLDSMITH, Esq, Philadelphia Carriage Company................ 30 BASHIR AHMED, Phila. Carriage Co.... 33 ED SPARKS, Old City Carriage Co..... 43 MARCELLA SPARKS, Old City Carriage.. 43 WILLIAM FERARRO, Dept. of Health.... 54 KEITH RODIMER, Phila. Carriage Co... 62 MICHAEL SLOCUM, 76 Carriage Co...... 64 LINDA KRAMER, 76 Carriage Co........ 78 MARY AULL, Animal Advisory Committee 90 WILLIAM HAWKINS, Animal Advisory.... 94 PENNELLE HOPKINS, Pa. SPCA......... 107 LOU PELUSO......................... 117 NICK COONEY, Hugs for Puppies...... 124 BRIAN CANE, Phila. Carriage Co..... 130 C'ANNE ANDERSON, Callowhill Neighbors Association. .................. 140 KEITH RODIMER, Phila. Carriage Co.. 149 CASEY MCQUILLAN.................... 163 JENNIFER BOFINGER.................. 165 3 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Committee on Streets and Services. We do a quorum. My name is Frank DiCicco. I am the Chair of the Committee on Streets and Services. In attendance today are also Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller to my right, Councilman Michael Nutter, and Councilman Frank Rizzo to my left. Before we begin, I just have a few things I'd like to say. First, because of the complexity of the City's budget hearings, Council President has scheduled several witnesses to testify this afternoon beginning at 1 o'clock. We've all been reading in the paper about the budget and tax reform bills, and it really has taken a lot of our time these days. So we're going to try to get through this morning's hearing as quickly as possible. So we have at least three hours. I want to hear from as many people as possible and to take as much time is necessary. That being said, I'd like to get started. We do have a quorum, as I said. Second, it is possible that we do 4 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 not have the time to hear from everyone, although I do promise to do my best. The situation is beyond my control. But if necessary, I will recess this hearing and call for another hearing at a later date because I do want to hear from as many people as possible. I hope that doesn't happen, so I ask all the witnesses make your testimony concise and straightforward. If you have written testimony, please give a copy to Mr. Brian Abernathy, my Legislative Assistant, the young fellow sitting behind me, so that we can distribute that testimony appropriately. Finally, if you wish to testify but have not yet scheduled time, please give Mr. Abernathy your name so you can be placed on the list. We are here today to investigate the mistreatment of animals by the carriage industry in the City of Philadelphia as authorized by City Council in Resolution No. 23 040105. About four years ago, we began to examine Philadelphia's horse carriage industry 5 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and the regulations that guide it. From those initial hearings, several additions were made to the City Code: Extra fees for sanitation, specific travel routes, hours of operation, temperature restrictions, et cetera. While I recognize today and I recognized then for those of you who were at that hearing that no 9 one was entirely pleased with that legislation that was adopted. We attempted to find a compromise that would not put undue restrictions on the industry but at the same time protected the animals. And I understand that there are people who take exceptions to that legislation. There are still people who will call me from the industry saying "Could we change the temperatures. It's 92 or whatever the number we're at. Could you make it an extra degree higher? " I said this four years ago. I don't think there's a magic number. But we did what we thought was in the best interest of the animals and the industry at the time and we're going to stick with that. 6 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 For the past few years, I thought things were going relatively well. However, after I saw the KYW news report in January, I realized that something was still wrong out there. The conditions portrayed were heinous: Horses with no water or water that was frozen. The animals were covered in their own excrement. They had little or no bedding and lived in very small stalls. Open sores covered their bodies. Shortly after that report aired, te Health Department and the SPCA visited the stable in question. From my understanding, while the conditions they found were less than ideal, the stable had not necessarily broken any law. I find that hard to believe, but I will not condemn the company without all the facts. I just want to interrupt my comments to say that Councilmember Ramos is here as well. He's a member of this Committee. Nor will I condemn the industry on the actions of one company. I know that many of these companies strive to provide the best 7 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 care possible for their animals. Unfortunately, in this instance, I believe there was a breakdown in our City regulations mandating the care of the horses. Perhaps there were no laws broken because our laws and regulations are not strict enough. Perhaps City agencies need to be more vigilant in their enforcement of the current Code. And perhaps City agencies may have been hoodwinked. We're going to try to find that out day. I don't know. But that's why we're here, to uncover the truth. We need to hear about what conditions these horses live in on a day-by-day basis. We must look at not only the condition of the horses on the street, but the conditions of their home. And we need to examine the role of the City in maintaining these conditions. If we need new regulations, the Health Department will adopt new regulations. If we need to enact new legislation, we will introduce new legislation. We will do what is necessary to protect the well-being of the horses. 8 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 While I said yesterday in my comments om, u interview with KWY, this is a business, it provides opportunities for people to be employed, it provides a tax basis, and it does provide an opportunity as an entertainment venue, if you will, for tourists who come to our City. So we're not here to rid the City of the horse carriage industry. Again, as I said in my earlier statement, I thought four years ago we had this matter resolved, but not for the KWY news report of a few months ago, we wouldn't be here today. So I want to proceed with the hearings and we will begin by calling Carmen Paris, Deputy Commissioner of the Health Department. Councilman Darrell Clarke is also present for these hearings.
Good morning, Councilman and Committee Chairman DiCicco and members of the Committee on Streets and Services. I am Carmen Paris, Deputy Health Commissioner. 9 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Thank you for the opportunity to present testimony on the status of the Department of Public Health Carriage Horse Inspection Program. Early in 2004 health and safety issues pertaining to the carriage horse industry in Philadelphia came to the attention of the Department of Public Health, the primary regulatory agency of the carriage horse industry in the City. At the time, Mr. Chairman, you requested that the Department examine the applicable regulations pursuant to Sections 10-107 and 10-108 of The Philadelphia Code, regulations governing commercial horse stables and rental and carriage horses, and proposed changes that will lead to more effective enforcement. These regulations govern health and safety aspects of commercial and carriage horse stable maintenance in operation and the operation and care of rental and carriage horses and carriages. They also provide for licensing of stables, carriages and carriage operators. The Department has performed a 10 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 thorough reevaluation of the entire regulatory process of the carriage horse operations. In addition to the regulations themselves, the evaluations included applicable department policies and procedures relative to the enforcement of these regulations. In order to enhance its entire oversight of the industry, the Department proposes revision of these regulations and oversight policy. A breakdown of the regulations to be revised and an underlying reasoning is as follows: To assure adequate owner supervision of stables and increase the likelihood that complete and unannounced inspections can be made, increased stable staffing will be required. A responsible party will have to be available at the stable at all times and all parts of the stable must be available for inspection, including the physical structure, veterinary records and log books. Also, the stable will have to show proper ownership, lease or legal easement of this area. In order to accurately identify the horses, permanent microchips will be provided 11 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and embedded by agents of the Department. This microchip will enable the Department to identify and track horses, especially with those health or safety issues that should be prohibited from working. To better protect the safety of carriage users, drivers and the public, horses will be evaluated for undue reaction traffic, loud noises, and other urban stress issues before placing them into service. In addition, carriage driver tests would include an on-street evaluation. To protect the health of horses, new rules limiting their working with visible sores, maintaining drinking water, and maintaining the horse turnout areas are also recommended. In addition, recommendations are being made to add a number of agencies whose representatives will have the authority to remove horses with health or safety issues from work. The additional agencies include the Police and Streets and the National Park Service and the Philadelphia Parking 12 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Authority. In addition to these proposed regulation changes, several departmental actions and policy changes has been instituted since January 2004. This include the following: A large animal veterinarian has bee retained by the Department to provide examinations of carriage horses at least two times per year in addition to the veterinary examinations required stables operators. The Department's veterinarian will also be available to the Department on-call basis for any horse issues or questions that the Department's agents might have. The Department is conducting stable inspections on a quarterly basis or more frequent if necessary.
The Department has in place an agreement with the Women's Humane Society so that an agent of the society will accompany the Department's agent in any case where the animal cruelty is an issue or is suspected for the purpose of determining if the operation is in violation of the 13 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Pennsylvania Animal Cruelty Code. These proposed revisions to the regulations, coupled with the changes in policy that have been instituted are intended to improve the health and safety of the carriage horses to drivers and the public. We have met with and discussed these changes with representatives of the Police and Streets Departments, several units within the Department of Public Health, the Philadelphia Animal Care and Control Association, PACCA, and the National Park Service. We have also discussed these changes with you, Mr. Chairman, and your staff and will take under advisement any recommendation this Committee might have in accordance with the required procedure for initiating changes to City regulations. A final draft of the changes will be prepared for Law Department approval, Board of Health presentation and approval and submission to the Department of Records. Thank you for the opportunity to present testimony today. We will now answer any questions you might have. 14 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Thank you, Ms. Paris. In your testimony, you advise us that the Department will be conducting stable inspections on a quarterly basis or more frequently if necessary. Prior to the KWY News report, how often did the Department visit these stables?
Had any violations ever been cited? And could you describe what you saw when you went out to that particular stable after the KWY News report.
If it's okay with you, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one of the inspectors that actually went out there inspected the properties.
George Stem from Philadelphia Animal Care and Control 15 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Association.
S-T-E-M, George. The beginning with this before what we found there with the requirement that we need to update to, the stable wasn't BEING kept at the proper sanitation level, frozen water, not enough food being kept around.
How much time was it that passed from the time the news report was aired before the inspection took place?
What were the required fines, do you know? Could you tell 16 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 me a little bit about the citations, what were they issued for and what were the fines?
On our level because, of the quality of the building, the way the horses look, on our level we're permitted to give a citation of $25. Four of them were issued. Also, there was a request for a cruelty officer to come in and take a look at the animals. And with the assistance of the Health Department, we were able to acquire this doctor that needed to come in and do a physical examination on these animals to certify that these animals were okay.
Have you found any other violations since you've been back?
In the very beginning there was only one horse that had a foot problem. Within the two to three weeks after we had the horse removed from the street, under veterinarian care, the horse was able to 17 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 go back to work. Right now we're monitoring every month with any kind of problem that we're hearing about or seeing ourself. If there's anything medical, we will talk to the staff down there, please to take that horse off the street and get a medical report.
So is it safe to say that since the report and since your initial inspections that took place as a result of the KWY news report that the conditions there have improved and are now up to Code?
They're improving. They're up to Code right now, and that's why we want to continue with the type of inspections that we're permitted to do.
I just would like to add that since the reporter came to the stables, we instructed the staff to be out there at least once a month, if not twice a month. And the conditions have improved. But 18 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 nevertheless, we have continued to provide them with any technical support or clinical support that they might need.
This question is actually for both of you. You can decide who wants to answer it. In addition to this stable in question that was in the KWY News report, have the same inspections, follow-up inspections occurring at the other stable or stables?
No, sir, there have been no significant problems in other stables.
How many stables are currently operating in the City of Philadelphia? 19 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
With respect to the penalty phase, are these penalties comparable to other penalties associated with animals? I'm assuming we have penalties associated with cruelty to dogs and other types of animals in the City. Is it an across-the-board penalty or are there specific penalties for cruelty or other types of health-related issues for animals that are used for businesses versus animals that are used as pets or things of that nature?
With the cruelty there's no separation with the condition of an animal, whether it's used in a commercial or a private pet. If we get a complaint that any type of animal is in bad condition or there are 20 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 medical problems, we go out for an inspection. We require another veterinarian to also be able to examine this animal. And if they back everything up, that's when we take our actions.
So the penalties associated with the animals don't vary based on commercial or pets?
Do you think, particularly in this case because this is a particular industry that, I'm assuming, makes a profit, the likelihood that these animals will be utilized obviously in a different way than your pets would that you may want to look at a different structure as it relates to penalties associated with some of the issues.
That is certainly something that we will take into consideration. We see that -- I mean, there's a difference between an animal that is at home and it's not working every day. So we will definitely take that into consideration, sir.
What's the 21 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 current penalty?
Yes, sir. COUNCILMAN Clarke: So could it be that in a lot of cases that sometimes people think that the cost of doing business in this particular case being $25 is so nominal that there's no real incentive to do anything about the treatment of these animals, particularly given the fact that it's a profit-making entity. And if it's a pet, you get fined $25, you probably will respond to that particular issue because it's $25 out of your pocket that you will not recapture. But if you're in a business that, in fact, makes a profit, sometimes people say that's just the cost of doing business. So I would like to see if at all possible some analysis of that and possibly the need to increase the penalty.
Are there any 22 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 provisions in the current Code for confiscation of animals if you find that the conditions are such or warranted?
With the seriousness of the complaint or the condition of the animals, yes, we will confiscate the animal through a court action.
Is that based on the number of violations or based on the on-site analysis as it relates to the condition? Is there a threshold where we determine that this horse has been mistreated so badly that the City of Philadelphia is going confiscate that animal?
There are two kind of levels that we use. Severe, we don't wait, we go right into for legal action to be taken for confiscation. If we go there and the horse is in a dirty place, is not very, very sick or anything, that's when we have to give them the order. They get about three days to straighten it out and get a medical report. After that, then we take our legal action in the court. 23 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Have we ever had to confiscate horses out of this particular industry?
Not yet. When they were ordered off the street, had medical done, their veterinarian would give medical reports, forward them to us. They would not be permitted in service on the street until they had that clearance from a vet.
But we've had occasions, sir, where we have been out there and we found an animal that is not suitable work and we have ordered the business owner to remove the animal from the streets, and they have done that.
Okay. I know in the instance -- it was not a particular business, but over in 31st and Master we had a number of stables, and I'm assuming the Health Department went out there along with some City relocation people and the conditions were such that a number of those horses were, in fact, confiscated.
For the purpose of all the folks that are here. Especially the Committee members who may not have been a part of the hearings that took place four years ago, during those hearings some of the recommendations that were made and I know one particular I put on the table was if a company, horse carriage company, was continually in violation of certain types of violations that their business privilege more or less would be suspended for a certain amount of time and it would be a graduated time of suspension similar to a driver's license, you know, you get points you get 15 day suspension, you get 6 and so forth. So that was part of the original -- that was in part of the original regulations or the regulations that we enacted four years ago. Am I correct?
Could you explain that a little bit for the panel so 25 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 they all understand it? There are conditions related to the horse carriage industry that do have a distinction from other situations that would occur with a household pet in addition to the fact that it's commercial.
If I may pull out the packet. We do have a system that we have in place that there are points assessed on whatever condition that's presented. Whether it's a driver without a license or the operations aren't being presented right on the streets, the conditions aren't safe at the stables. For various reasons we can give them a CVN and a writ with so many points. If they accrue points, they can have their 18 operations suspended for a hearing, and that's 19 a hearing sent out for a court decision to be 20 made. 21
Thank you, Mr. 24 Chairman. 25 Good morning. 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
I understand we're focused primarily on the carriage horse industry that's primarily in Center City section of Philadelphia. But I want to hear about -- you mentioned that there's only two barns. I believe if you look at Fairmount Park, you'll find other facilities that do rent horses for pleasure. I'm hoping that we have our eye on these other facilities that may be in Pennypack or may be in the Wissahickon that they are being viewed equally by the regulator, meaning the Health Department. So I would hope that that is not being overlooked. And I do want to make it clear that, I'm going to use the word alleged because there's many people that aren't familiar with horses that when they see a horse that has foaming at its mouth doesn't necessarily mean that the horse is being abused. That's what a horse does on occasion. And there are other things that can be perceived as improper treatment. The treatment that we saw the 27 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 horses many months ago was obvious that that was beyond what I'm talking about. But I think we have to remember that a horse is a horse, and if they're being mistreated or abused, that's one thing. But if they're working and doing what they've been raised to do, that's a whole entirely different situation. And a person that's not familiar with that, they can perceive that as abuse when it is not necessarily abuse. I hope you'd agree with me.
Any other questions for these witnesses from the Committee? Councilman Ramos.
Is the answer to the question of Councilman Rizzo that you do monitor of the other stables in other parts of the City?
In the same way 28 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 that you monitor of the carriage companies?
That response required another question. So with respect to other stables, you say you monitor the other stables throughout the City similarly as you monitor these particular?
What happened at 31st and Master? Have we ever monitored 31st and Master?
Prior to the City's involvement in the relocation efforts.
It was being handled by the Pennsylvania SPCA cruelty officers in force. They would go down three and talk with the owners of the horses down there and monitor. And then it seemed like towards a little bit before the City got involved, they 29 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 weren't able to get access to the building and that was brought to everyone's attention and then when this process was started how we can see how we can get easement for the horses. The kennels were in terrible shape. We were able to get in there. It was just a very bad, unsanitary and unhealthy and unsafe condition where these horses were being kept.
I know we're here to talk about the carriage industry so I don't want to get too far off on the other issue, but I do need to talk to you about that situation because from my understanding that condition had been placed for a substantial period of time and it was clear that there was no monitoring or no enforcement. You're saying now it was the responsibility of the SPCA. I'm just wondering how it got to the point it got to where we finally went in there and we had to essentially confiscate horses because the conditions were so bad. I won't do that in this particular hearing because we're focused on a specific issue. 30 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you. I'd ask that you stay for the rest of the hearing in case there are other questions for you, if you don't mind. Thank you. Basir Ahmed and Ed Sparks. Good morning, gentlemen. Please identify yourself for the record. Do you have a prepared statement?
We have some documents that Mr. Abernathy would come over and pick up or I'll bring them to him. My name its Edwin Goldsmith. I am the attorney for Philadelphia Carriage Company. Sitting to my right is Mr. Bashir Amed.
Mr. Goldsmith, before you get started, is Mr. Ed Sparks here from the Old City Carriage? Would you please approach the 31 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 witness table sir. Thank you, Mr. Goldsmith,
Mr. sparks is a totally separate company, just for the record.
That's what I'm getting at. So there actually are three horse carriage companies as opposed to the two which was testified by the Department of Health a few minutes ago.
I thought there was, but for some reason I thought maybe somebody wasn't here today. There are three companies, Philadelphia Carriage Company, Old City Carriage, and Philadelphia Trolley Works -- 76 Carriage, excuse me, which is owned by the same company. All right, thank you. Please proceed with your testimony.
Councilman DiCicco, I've sat here and listened to the testimony that was just given of the Health Department and particularly Mr. George Stem. What I have handed out here is the reports from the Philadelphia Department of Public Health and 32 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 the SPCA which surround the time of the KWY News broadcast. I'd like to bring Council's attention to the fact that there was an inspection at the stable on January 29, which I believe was several days before the KWY News -- it should be the top document, Councilman DiCicco. You will find in the package two Health Department inspections and two SPCA inspections.
Actually, the way they're stapled together, it's the opposite. The first one is 2/2. It's the second one. Nonetheless, we know which one you're talking about.
Now, the one on January 29th was on a Thursday. I believe this inspection by the news station took place over the weekend on a Sunday. And then there was an inspection that followed by the Department of Health on the 2nd, and then 33 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 there was an inspection by the SPCA on the 2nd and there was also an inspection by the SPCA on the 19th. I'd like to note for the record, Mr. Ahmed, if you will speak into the microphone, did you receive any fine as a result of those inspections?
Since until this moment I don't receive any fines. I don't have no 11 $25 fine. I don't have anything, just recommended to do some stuff there in stable.
That's it. If you will look at the January 29th inspection report, there is an indication -- first of all, those reports are designed by the Health Department to show the specific violations of Code. And if you'll note that with the exception of No. 10, all of these are comments which, as you will see, will be corrected in the next report. For example, No. 5 was a situation where Zak, which is the name of the horse, his stall was near a covered stairwell and it was recommended that that stairwell be covered up so there wouldn't 34 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 be any injury to the animal. This is a situation apparently existed for quite some time. And you see from the next report there's no mention of it because it was immediately addressed. There was ice freezing over in some of the water buckets. It was a very cold night. That was addressed as well. The other things are clean bits stored -- the storing of clean bits and a note that the Health Department was well aware of Noah. Noah had been in an accident several months before, and he was recovering, sores were recovering and they suggested how he should wear his muzzle. They asked also for records to be presented. And this inspection was done by a Louis Zegius (ph), David -- the rest of his name is not indicated here. I don't know where George Zen got into this, but he certainly doesn't appear on this inspection report. I then turn Council's attention to inspection report dated 2/2/04, and the 35 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 comments there are -- under 19, the only comment in the numbered part is "Remove or cushion holster and holders if kept in storage," it looks like. And it talks about bedding down in the comments part. Basically, there's no violation or citation in this report. Then if you look at the SPCA reports, the one on February 2nd indicates -- that report is set up to say -- this is a group of categories, physical appearance of animals, shelter available, physical condition of shelters, cages and pens, size of shelters, cages and pens, sanitation, water, tie out, bedding, heat cooling system, and attendants present. And it gives choices of three categories, satisfactory, unsatisfactory, and not applicable. In these columns satisfactory is checked in every single one except for bedding which is not checked. And the indication in the comments is "I ordered better bedding. Not enough bedding in storage for all stalls. I also advised on coils for the water buckets 36 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and to prevent freezing. I inspected the hoof of the horse in question and found that it was shaped for the shoe it was wearing and approved it was not infected."
Mr. Goldsmith, sorry to interrupt your testimony. We have a copy. Could you get to the heart of what it is you want to express to us today?
The heart of it is, when you look at these reports, and that's why I wanted to put them on the record, the reports indicate, notwithstanding the journalistic efforts of KWY and a camera man who literally broke into this stable at midnight on a Sunday without permission and under false pretenses, notwithstanding that activity, when the facts came out and when these stables were inspected, they were found -- there were some minor problems, but by and large and very much by and large, the SPCA found and the City inspectors found that there were not serious problems here. So what my client is concerned about is, is that he's been subjected to a journalistic rampage here 37 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 that is uncalled for given the facts. I have a veterinarian present and he will be prepared to testify to indicate that the findings of the radio station unschooled in horses and stables were just incorrect.
Well, I appreciate your comments and I appreciate the fine work you're doing in representing your client. So that you understand, it was certainly my intention to have their hearings based on my non-professionalism. I'm not a veterinarian. I did see KWY, that news report. And as a layperson, what I saw, in my opinion, led me to believe that there were some inadequacies and that the stable was not up to satisfy code based on the hearings that I conducted four years. We can argue whether that's true or not. And you do have some facts that would counter those accusations. KWY decided for whatever reason -- I suspect someone probably alerted them to the conditions up there. I don't think a camera person just decided to go out night and go 38 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 into a stable. Someone had to make a call. Someone had to alert KYW about conditions that he or she believed at the time were not conditions that were desirable for the health and safety and the welfare of the animal or animals. I don't know who that person was. That person didn't call me. However, I do get calls from time to time from concerned citizens in my district about the condition and the care or lack of care for the horses that are part of the horse carriage industry. And generally, what I will do is call up the company, the manager of the company and report it or I'll give it to the Health Department and they go out and do their job to the best of their ability. I'm not here today to point a finger at just Mr. Bashir. This is a hearing to talk about the horse carriage industry as it applies to the three companies that operate in the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Bashir, unfortunately, was the horse carriage company where a news reporter, a news team went out to investigate. And, again, probably based on a 39 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 tip or a complaint. We're not judges up here. We're going to do what we think is in the best interest of the industry because we're all saying that we want it to thrive. I know there are a number of people out there and there's a lady in the back with sunglasses who I don't recall her name who walks her dog past my house in South Philadelphia a couple times a day, and she made sure she reminded me, it was either Friday or Saturday of last week, that she and a number of other people who work in this industry live in my district. And I understand and appreciate that. It employs people. All we want to do is make sure that these animals get the best possible care and are treated humanely and that the business code continue to operate in the City. Again, I didn't pick up the phone and call KWY and say, "Go out and look at this stable." It just happened to be for whatever reason. And if you have an issue with KWY, I suggest you take it up with them. But we're here to look at the regulations we did four years ago ans see what we can do today to 40 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 tighten those regulations up so that we can prevent these reoccurrences, if you will, of the conditions that I saw and many thousands of other people saw that night. And it could have been only that one time, that one incidence, it may have only been a weekend. I don't know. I don't know. But we want to prevent that from happening again. So we're not prosecute your client.
Councilman, I appreciate what you're saying and I understand, having sat in your position in suburban district. I understand that it is important, that the paramount duty is to protect the health, safety and welfare of the inhabitants and the animals and everyone and every beast who lives in the confines of the City of Philadelphia. I understand that. I understand the importance of this. My only point was that I wanted to dispel what I considered after reviewing the documentation here to be the far flung and I'd say journalistic license of KWY in doing what they did here and pointing out this particular 41 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 carriage company. We don't know who instigated this, whether this was a neighbor, it could have been a competitor, it could be anybody. We don't know the answer to that.
It could have been a former employee who mistreated horses who got fired. As we all know, we can take a camera and go into a stable and zero in on some manure that's on the floor. It doesn't disappear instantaneously. That's the only point we're trying to make here. Certainly, we want to see that horses are treated properly and treated well, and Mr. Bashir would agree with that and Mr. Bashir Ahmed would agree a hundred percent with that. Is that correct?
So from that standpoint, we welcome inspections and whatever you certainly will be glad to work with Council in forming any additional 42 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 regulations that are appropriate in that regard. We want to see that all carriage industry treats their animals properly. As an animal lover myself, I would find it absolutely abhorrent to injure any animal or mistreat any animal.
And we appreciate that. Also, just one more to remind you we have an obligation here that the folks who work for the Department of Health are charged with monitoring these situations and doing the best job that they can. There are a whole host of things that the Health Department deal with on a day-to-day basis throughout this large City of ours. And I do appreciate the work that they do as well. And, again, this is just an opportunity, I think, to put on the table some issues and maybe some changes in the code or regulations that will prevent us from having to have another hearing again in the future, and life can go on we can all live our lives and the horses can do what they do and life goes on for them as well in the best possible 43 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 condition. Mr. Sparks, do you wish to testify? Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Ed Sparks and I'm owner of Old City Carriage. I have my wife here. We wanted to talk about some issues about the regulations. Can she come up?
Yes, she can. Good morning. Please state your name for the record.
I really think that Councilman Rizzo did hit on an issue about whether what we see could possibly look different than what someone else sees in the horse industry. I think that we need to regulate exactly who is looking at the condition of the horses. I think what the Health Department did say was that they're going to have a vet do more inspections, and I think that that is the right way to go. I 44 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 think that we've had some inspections quite possibly done, we need more horse men, you know, people that have been in the industry for 30 years or longer and they know what they're looking at. I think at some point, like he said, we may look at some things, for instance, a foamy horse or a horse that is thin but may quite possibly be thin because of age. If I look at it, it may look to seem that it is not proper. If a vet or a horse person looks to see, he may find that there's a different cause. So I think that that's very good way to go and that's one of the things that I did want to say. I also think that some of -- the main purpose here is for the animals. The second purpose here is for businesses of Philadelphia, as what you have said. And I think that we need to help the carriage industry perform better but also not limit them. I think that at some point you are limiting them especially with time changes. I know that we need to make sure that the time for traffic coincides with the Streets 45 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Department, and I agree with that. But I do feel that we need a little bit more time maybe at the end of the evening. A person goes out to dinner and has a dinner and a carriage ride, it has to be done by 10:30 at night. I think that maybe if we extended a little bit of the time frames, we may be giving a little more business to the carriage companies and the City. I think that there should be some kind of Committee that we can accept people who know what they're talking about as far as the horse are concerned and that we can agree upon rules and regulations. In the past, I think I think some of the rules and regulations were made but they were just made and that was it.
I have to disagree with that. There have been extensive conversations that have taken place over the last five, six years -- and I see Mr. Stem shaking his head -- probably more hours that I care to remember that I have spent on issue. Not because I don't think it's important but 46 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 that's the reason I did it, obviously, because it is important. There have been numerous, numerous meetings and discussions from people in the industry, the Health Department, my office, L&I, the animal rights activists to try to come up with a set of rules that speak to some of the issues that you just addressed, the time, the routes, and things of that nature. And I said back four years ago that at the end of that hearing people were going to walk away dissatisfied. It's an impossibility for us to make everybody happy as Councilpeople, no matter what we do, whether it's the horse carriage industry or anything else. There are always people who will feel that it should have been done differently. So I made a decision four years ago that what we put in place then would be in place. We've had some issues that have come about recently. Whether they are justified, whether it just happened to be that one night or one weekend that these conditions existed at this one particular stable, I don't know. 47 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 But I can tell you for as many people who have written me in the last week to tell me how wonderful Mr. Bashir's company Philadelphia Carriage company is and how great the horses are treated, I get just as many call from people who say that they don't like the way these horses are being treated while they're out in the street. So I'm not going to spend my entire life standing out there to try to police it; it's impossible. So we leave it up to the people who are in charge, the Health Department, the Department of L&I, and the industry to try to figure out how this thing can work to the best ability for everyone, notwithstanding that there are some people who are going to want a little bit more, change the time, make it later, make it earlier, move the temperature up, move it down. There is no 20 -- I don't think there is a magic number -- and I said this same thing four years ago -- in any of these issues that will make everybody happy. So we did what we thought was best. We did a compromise, if you will, because that's the best that we can do 48 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 sometimes is to try to figure a compromise. So when you talk about a committee, there was a committee. It's not a bona fide committee of sorts, but it is a Committee made up of people from all the groups that I just spoke of who have come together to talk about this issue. And it's a continuum. You can continue it. If you have issues, you should get together with the other two companies, call the Health Department, I'm the Chair of this Committee, I will spend as much time as I can to give to you to talk about these issues. But at some point, we have to make a decision. You may not be happy with it, but we will hear you, listen to you and try to make adjustments where we can. But at some point, again, you may not be pleased with the final result. But we have spent hours, hours upon hours upon hours. The last meeting I had with the Health Department and the Commissioner of the Department of Health probably lasted at least an hour and a half in a conference room on the 3rd floor in addition to the phone calls that I have made, my legislative assistant has made 49 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and all the e-mails that go back and forth. Countless hours are being spent on this. So everybody has to pull together, no pun intended, to make this work.
I think you're absolutely right. I think that we should as the carriage companies we should be heard too.
If you have recommendations, Mr. Slocum periodically sends me a two, three-page letter explaining to me his concerns about some of the things that you raised and what he would like to see changed.
Thank you, I think. But thank you for your testimony. Any questions for these witnesses from the Committee? Councilman Ramos.
You made reference to -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you made reference to phoney horses, is that so?
Foaming from the mouth or quite possibly around where the bridle is because they've been working. Same thing that Councilman Rizzo had stated.
I thought I heard "phoney," and I asked the Chairman, what's a phoney horse.
Thank you for clarifying. 51 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Any other questions for these witnesses? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to reference one of the reports, it's actually the January 29th report. Two of the issues, inadequate heating. The inspector showed it was inadequate heating based on a bucket of water being frozen. Was that due to the heating system or what? Can you be more specific about that? Or maybe you want to respond.
When they came to stable, they found just -- it's very cold, you know, January, it's very cold weather. In any stable you get in that time, you can find after 20 minutes the water in the bucket just turn ice. And the horse if he want a drink, he can go get inside the bucket and drink. And usually what we do few times a day we make sure the horse drink, take the ice, the very 52 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 thin ice in the top of the bucket, remove it from there, we put fresh water. And when they said they have horse dirty water, most of horses they like to pick up the hay, put bucket to make it wet to eat it. Always the bucket is dirty because the hay inside the bucket, they like to make it wet. We change all the time --
Is there a minimum requirement in terms of the heat in a stable.
What we can do also, we can like heater, like stick put in there, the coil and we can heat.
My question and maybe concern, if the it's cold enough in the stable that the bucket of water is going to freeze, I'm assuming that it's cold throughout the stable, not just in the bucket. My question centers around whether or not it's too cold for the horse to --
Naturally, the horse, they love cold. Cold doesn't affect him at all. 53 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Can I ask the inspector from the Health Department to come up also.
I don't think there's no minimum requirement for temperature.
I think want to clarify something. It's just a thin layer of ice.
I'm go to need to ask since everyone keeps talking, please identify yourself every time you speak so the record is clear.
Attorney Goldsmith. I just talked to my client. I think the Sparks will agree. This is very, very thin layer of ice. This is not a frozen solid bucket. It's just ice that forms on the very outer edge. And as I heard the testimony here, the horse sticks his whole head into the bucket. This is not the way we drink water, this is the way a horse drinks water. The 54 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 horse's head is not clean, the water gets dirty, they have to change the bucket constantly because of this.
I think the question my colleague is -- maybe the Health Department needs to address this. Is there a temperature requirement that the stables need to be kept at? Could someone from the Health Department address that? I know a little bit about this from four years ago that some horses prefer colder weather compared to others that's a different species. It was even suggested four years ago that some horses you would never put a blanket on no matter how cold it may be if the horse is working because it causes it to sweat. And there are other horses that you may decide that may need to put blanket on. So we just need to know about the stable area. Is there a requirement for a temperature, high-low temperature, what-have-you at a stable?
William Ferraro, vector control services for the Philadelphia 55 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Department of Public Health. There are no 3 regulations. We've searched nationwide for temperatures of a stable. The reason is, horses can pretty much tolerate it. If it's cold, they use blankets and actually, according to Penn State and their equine school, they really don't think that they should be heated. However, the water condition has been an issue. And this past winter being so cold, our revision of the regs are going to require some way to keep the water from freezing over, whether mechanical coil or something to prevent the water from freezing because as what happened at 31st and Master, that water there was frozen over when we found that one.
All right. You learn something new every day. With respect to the sores on the animal, one of the animal had sores. You said it was due to an accident? Was the horse hit by a car?
We have accident, it was 56 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 a horse. The Health Department knows about that. It was the summer in August.
Right. And the horse got hurt. The Health Department come in and they check the sore. They said don't work the horse for a month. We don't work him for three months. We don't need him. We have more horses than what we need. Everything is healed. Nothing wrong with that. When they come in, they try to find anything there in my place, so they mentioned about the horse sore. They check that horse, the one got hurt in August, they find him he's okay.
Is there a requirement when a horse gets hit by a vehicle, do you have to report it to the Health Department?
Yes. They come in, they check and they find sore there, yes. But 57 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 everything is okay after that. He was fine.
Because there was some concern about the capability of some of the Health Department employees, is a veterinarian called in?
Yeah. We have technician over there and they come and check and told me what to do. At the same time, I called my vet. The horse is in good shape, there's nothing wrong.
What role does the Health Department play in that in the event that there's an accident, a horse gets hit? Do you simply leave the responsibility to the stable owner?
Not totally to the responsibility of the owner. We respond to an incident on the street if the horse is in an accident or had fallen in any way, the animal -- we go down and check. If the animal can get up and move around okay, their horse is returned to their stable. They have to get their veterinarian to give a physical inspection of the animal. 58 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Yes. If they don't provide it within -- and we've talked to this with other ones. If they can't give us a report to us within a certain time, within two to three days, we bring our vet down.
That's a follow-up for the report that the animal has to stay out of service for a week or two weeks or the animal is okay.
Is there a reexamination period where the vet will give periodic reports on the condition of the horse and its improvement?
Yes. There's continuous check by the doctors. Some of the horses I've been working with, the stables right now, the first inspection and the doctor will come back 59 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and give a re-certification that the animal suitable for service, in writing.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. America's most biggest athlete is a guy named Smarty Jones. And I think that what's good for Smarty Jones should be good for Zak. Smarty Jones likes to eat hay, oats and carrots. Can you guys tell me what you feed -- we know you give them water to drink. What do you feed them?
We feed him hay and we feed him oats and corn and butter all mixed together. Carrots, we don't have to really, just for treat. And apple, the same thing.
Is that because it's too expensive? You say you don't have to. My wife doesn't have to cook steak for me, but sure would like a steak once in a 60 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 while and probably more often what I should consume.
The horses, they need just really hay, that's it, that's what need and water. Feed really is not required. It just give him energy in the wintertime.
I hear. I just have a concern about this required stuff. I am required for me to stay alive to have some proteins and vitamins in my system, but it is good for me also to consume other type of nutritional foods to be able to feel stronger, to walk longer, run longer. I know what you're saying. I respect of you're saying. I have a problem with the way -- the emphasis on you're meeting just requirements. Will your horse be a healthier horse if you fed him the diet that Smarty Jones has of hay, oats, and carrots?
No. We give him hay. That's good that's good enough for the horse. Whatever we give, that's extra from us
Because one of the complaints -- one of the things that I've 61 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 heard and I saw on KWY that some of the horses looked exhausted and tired and undernourished. And I know that sometimes you need some proteins in my body after being around with Councilman DiCicco here in this City Council and spending hours and hours in public testimony that I need to get away and get some proteins into my system. I don't want to -- I live near a carriage house and I drive by there a lot. And it was only after I took a look at the KWY report that I stopped by to take a close because when I drove I really didn't see anything wrong from my view of my car. But then I stopped, and I stop occasionally and just look in there. I have not gone into the stable. I've gotten out of the car and gotten close to the fence because I am concerned about this fine creature. So I would want to make sure that these horses are properly fed. Take a look at the Smarty Jones diet if it helps. If it helped him become America's biggest athlete, maybe we need to have the same diet applied to your horses here and our horses here in Philadelphia. 62 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 But you know more about this industry. But to see our horses do this great job of taking our tourists all around this great City and taking them to America's historical sites is a job that is very noble. And your company, through this great beast called a horse, is doing for this City that we owe it to them to feed them right, give them what they need so they can continue to make us proud.
My name is Keith Rodimer. I'm the manager of the Philadelphia Carriage Company. In answer to about the horses get fed, we do whatever our vet recommends like how we feed them. They get fed three times a day. Once a day they get their feed, oats and grain. It's important because if you over feed them with the grain because the high protein just like us, like, we can get sick with the high protein. When you change the horses' diet or when they get too much of something, they have a tendency to get sick. 63 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Now, as far as the carriage and things like that, all the drivers that work for our company or the vast majority of them on the way downtown there's like a fruit stand on the way downtown and about half of our drivers stop there every day to go get carrots and they feed the carrots to them downtown, they feed them at the barn. So does that kind of answer?
Yes. You've added more to the requirement response and that your jocks actually stop by -- do they eat anything else?
The horse will just about eat anything that you give him, which is kind of -- that's it's hour responsibility to make sure that they're not eating the flowers downtown like Independence National Park, things like that.
Thank you to 64 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 this panel. I appreciate it. The next witnesses, Michael Slocum, Philadelphia Trolley Works/76 Carriage Company. Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony, Mr. Slocum.
Michael Slocum, president of 76 Carriage Company. I'd like to thank everybody here on behalf of the carriage industry to have this opportunity to speak on behalf of this industry. I hope that my testimony today will include some insight as to some of the problems that this industry has experienced over the recent months. I'll try to be brief. I want to outline in my testimony here today what went wrong, the current status of the carriage industry, what I feel are necessary changes to move forward. After that, I'd like to introduce Linda Kramer who is to my right. Linda Kramer is the director of operations for 76 Carriage. She's here to testify as well. Then I will be happy to field questions from 65 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 the Committee about my testimony or any other presented here. 76 Carriage Company was founded in 1975 and was the leading provider of horse drawn carriages in the City of Philadelphia. Our reputation for the humane treatment of our horses, sound business practices, operating standards are nationally known throughout the carriage industry. 76 carriage company has always been a strong advocate of adopting nationally accepted standards for horse carriage proscribed by the Carriage Operators of North America. CONA's membership is committed to promoting the humane welfare of carriage animals, quantity care of service, and customer service. Our stable facility, which some of you have visited is a direct reflection of our philosophies and standards. Our Philadelphia-based operation employs over 125 employees working in several divisions, 76 Carriage Company, Philadelphia Trolley Works, the leading provider of sightseeing transportation and tourism in the 66 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 City. The downtown Phlash loop and Connective Tours which is a receptive operator offering a wide variety of regional tours. Approximately three years ago, I sat before this Council testifying on the sweeping regulations that were being proposed to rein in the horse carriage industry in Philadelphia. Then as today, the hearings were a direct result highly publicized mistreatment and abuse of some of Philadelphia carriage horses and created, in my opinion, some additional financial hardships. In my testimony today, I hope to address the regulations of 2001. I feel this is necessary because they are extremely relevant to the current situation. 76 Carriage Company certainly recognizes the need for meaningful legislation which addressees the real issue concerning the horse and carriage industry. There are those issues which have the greatest impact of the welfare of the carriage horses. Effective legislation would only be achieved by providing standards for the care and treatment of the carriage 67 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 horse and management of the stables in which they live. There are currently many existing laws and regulations governing this industry which impede our ability to operate yet previously few that regulate the care of the horses. Recently we have seen that existing legislation is not only cumbersome, but does not address the care of the horses and at times is inadequately enforced for a variety of reasons. My hope today is that any future regulations are geared toward the well-being of carriage horses and together we can repeal some of the sections of the 2001 regulations which has made Philadelphia an unfriendly carriage City in America. I'd like to touch a little bit what went wrong. It is my belief that this was a combination of several factors, including the misconception that over regulating the activities of the carriage horse industry out on the street would help correct these problems, the welfare problems of the horses. 68 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 The lack of concern for barn and living conditions which address the overall welfare and well-being of animals days a week, 365 a 5 year, and selective enforcement by personnel 6 with little or no equine experience.
7 The 2001 regulations failed because the City Council and Health Department sought to regulate the carriage industry by regulating our activities on the street where the horses are visible to the public. Regulations were adopted which were not supported by scientific or quantitative evidence to support them. And certain Council decisions were swayed by external influences from uneducated, ill-informed, or agenda-motivated personnel. Stringent and severe regulations were adopted which resulted in the following changes to the carriage operations. We have extreme route restrictions, a 40 percent reduction in operating hours, most of which occurs during the busiest hours of the day, elimination of carriage pickup and drop-off points, and the reduction of 69 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 temperature limits and imposition of a wind child limit. These new temperature limits coupled with in some cases overzealous enforcement by anyone with the badge, including not limited to Philadelphia Police, Independence National Historical Park rangers, Health Department staff, have resulted in many days when horses were sent home needlessly. Despite repeated requests, carriage operators were given no guidance as to how the official temperature is determined. Licensing fees were drastically increased, yet licenses are rarely received in a timely fashion if at all. This often results in carriages being sent home or ticketed on busy weekends when PACCA is unreachable to verify valid licensing. The current Health Department guidelines which interpreted City Council's 2001 regulations, also include provisions not included in the regulations. These include carriage lighting requirements, and the need for a carriage driver to possess a Pennsylvania motor vehicle license. These 70 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 provisions are in direct conflict with PennDOT regulations yet resulted in numerous federal citations and carriages being sent home by Independence National Historical Park rangers. While every effort was made to impede carriages from operating, few changes were made to improve the care and treatment of the carriage horse. The horse regulations which were adopted have rarely been enforced by PACCA. Some of the proposed items such as leg banding and the banishment of head checks not illustrate their enforcement and lack of equine knowledge, but could danger and/or cripple a carriage house. How can this industry move forward? The Philadelphia carriage industry can only move forward in a positive direction if it addresses certain over-regulation of these issues and lack of adequate horse care requirements through regular inspections by equine educated personnel. I propose the following ideas for Council's consideration: Stable management program. All commercial stables operating within the City 71 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 of Philadelphia shall provide the City with a comprehensive stable management program. This program shall contain at least the following elements: Feeding program. A detailed feeding program and schedule which will include the type and quantities of hay, grain, supplements fed to each horse. And I'd like to use this as an example because a few minutes ago I heard testimony about Smarty Jones and the diets of these animals and these horses. About two months ago, I guess, or soon after the KWY story broke, I was at the stable and the Health Commissioner approached our stable. He asked for an inspection and he wanted to walk through. " I found myself rambling on for about 30 minutes as to what we feed and how we feed. There really is no simple answer. Education is a big part of this determination. To be able to identify the types of hay, the quality of hay, the use of 72 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 supplements, the grains that we use, what protein content, how many times you feed it. There are many, many factors that are involved.
One basic factor would be the age of the horse, the time of the year, what time of year it is, how many hours working. It's just like a person. There's no set prescribed way to say that this is a hardcore feeding program. Councilman Ramos, you brought up Smarty Jones. I've been in the carriage industry for about years and I grew up 14 around horses all my life. I would not 15 attempt to try to regulated Smarty Jones' diet 16 at this point. I don't know that type of 17 horse. I don't know exactly what his 18 nutritional requirements are. In time I could 19 figure because I would gauge the horse and his 20 physical stamina and whether or not he was 21 gaining weight or losing weight or 22 maintaining. But it's different from one 23 aspect of the horse industry to another. 24 Therefore, it is extremely important that any 25 owner, manager, and/or regulatory official be 73 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 knowledgeable of the type of hay, the quality of hay, the types of grains that are used and what that feeding program is. I just wanted to set that aside as an example because that was brought up here. I'd like to get back to some of the details which should be included comprehensive stable program which should be submitted prior to anybody receiving a commercial stable license. Daily schedule of barn duties which address the cleaning and proper bedding of stalls, clean water buckets and water tubs. Provide a routine farrier care for each horse, ability to supply fresh water to each animal, a program to provide routine veterinary care for the horse. This would include evidence of worming and dental programs. Frequent inspection of stables to include every aspect. Adequate stall size, bedding, proper ventilation, by educated enforcement officials familiar with the carriage horse drawn industry. And adequate turnout or exercise facility. 74 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Carriage company shall establish a written training program for new horses. An emergency evacuation program posted and on file. All commercial stable operators must allow City officials to inspect their stables within hours notification. 8 All commercial carriage operators 9 shall provide the City of Philadelphia with a 10 copy of their carriage driver training 11 program. This shall include the following: 12 Hands-on training under the guidance of a 13 knowledgeable supervisor or trainer which 14 includes training and demonstration of the 15 following skills: Proper grooming technics, 16 hoof care, the ability to harness a horse 17 properly, name all of the parts of the harness 18 and the functions. Carriage drivers shall 19 know how to clean and properly inspect harness 20 for wear, historical tour guide training, 21 safety training, customer service training, 22 dress codes, training verification. Horse 23 drawn operators shall proof that all licensed 24 carriage drivers have received the proper training before they operate a horse-drawn 75 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 carriage. This may be done by written or oral examinations. The imposition of the above regulatory issues should be coupled with the revision of the most erroneous of the current regulations. m. on restricted routes which do not allow travel to or from stables on arterial streets. Carriages may operate on legal holidays with no route restrictions. m. The temperature restrictions: Carriages must return to the stable when the temperature exceeds 93 degrees Farenheit. The official temperature broadcast on KYW News Radio. No cold water whether restrictions or none lower than a limit of 20 degrees 76 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Farenheit. Health Department Rules: Carriage drivers must have a valid photo identification. Carriages must have rear flashing lights when moving between sunset and sunrise. 76 Carriage Company has offered some fair compromises to propose legislation and existing legislation.
Our proposals address the current issues surrounding our industry and will provide us an opportunity to operate responsibly and successfully. Carriages are certainly not only an attraction for tourism in Philadelphia, they play a large role in the local tourism industry and in the current zeal to help new operators to launch into Philadelphia's tourism scene, the carriages have been asked to compete with unfair restrictions. For over 28 years, 76 Carriage Company has been accessible, informative, dependable, and have grown to become a part of Philadelphia historical image. My personal opinion, which is shared 77 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 by many of our supporters, it would be a tremendous loss to the City and its growing tourism industry if in fact the carriage industry could not survive due to excessive regulations. The proposed compromised solutions I have offered to this Committee today are not from point of which to negotiate but rather a bare minimum that I feel necessary to operate a quality horse-drawn carriage business such as 76 Carriage Company. Two other points I'd like to make in summary. When it comes to abuse or mistreatment of animals, number one, you cannot hide that. When you look at an animal, I don't care if it's a horse on the street, a horse in someone's backyard, a dog or a cat in their home, if the animal looks like it's abused, if it looks like it's mistreated, most of the time, that animal is mistreated. You cannot hide those facts. It doesn't matter what time of day or night or what time of year it is. I hope that Council values the 78 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 testimony and the input of the industry. I consider myself to be a well-respected carriage operator, understanding all aspects of safety, healthcare. At this time I'd like to turn this over to Linda Kramer who will testify in regard to some of the regulations and also some of the current issues that are out there, and then we'll open it up for questions. Thank you.
Thank you for allowing me to speak today on behalf of the carriage industry in Philadelphia.
Linda Kramer, K-R-A-M-E-R, director of the operation, 76 Carriage Company.
I testify today in my dual role as operations manager at 76 Carriage Company and as the vice president of the Carriage Operators of North American, CONA, whose mission is to promote the welfare of 79 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 carriage animals with an emphasis on continuing education that focuses on safety, animal health, and customer service. In the three years since the adoption of the 2001 carriage regulations, I have witnessed the decline of the carriage industry in Philadelphia during a period when local tourism was on the increase, newly established Philadelphia tour operators are given carte blanche and the national interest in horse-drawn carriages is at an all-time high. Adding to my mounting frustration is the sense that no matter how diligently my staff and I strive to operate one of the largest carriage companies in North America, the survival and economic future of 76 Carriage is largely determined by the actions of other competitors in which we operate. Together, Mr. Slocum and I have over 50 years of horse experience, and yet we continue to educate ourselves in the latest healthcare, dietary, and disease prevention information available. We achieve this by 80 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 attending continuing education programs and national equine conventions, maintaining membership in national equine and carriage industry groups, such as CONA, the American Horse Council, the Carriage Association of Americal and the Animal Welfare Council. As vice president of CONA, I serve on both the education and safety committees as well as our experts forum. Amongst my industry peers, I am held in high regard as a carriage industry expert and leader, whereas in my own city I'm often treated as a pariah who must try to stay one step ahead of the regulators to remain in business. These last three years have been the most frustrating in my 31 years of horse ownership. 2 billion industry and home to over 215,000, including Smarty Jones and the nearly 1,000 horses that live within the City of Philadelphia. According to the Horse Power report, the carriage companies add to Philadelphia's heritage with horses driving through the City 81 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 streets. In 2004, the horse and carriage industry in Philadelphia is at a crossroad. The industry is crippled by stifling operating regulations that are sporadically enforced and, therefore, hinder only those who voluntarily comply. Yet they have failed to address the welfare of the very horses that the regulations sought to protect. The fate of the 76 Carriage Company will depend on the actions that City Council and the Health Department take in response to the now infamous stable of shame report. I believe that City Council has the unique opportunity to correct the problem caused by the 001 regulation and develop meaningful guidelines for current and future carriage companies. In order for any new legislation to be successful, it must allow to reputable carriage operators to compete fairly in the tourism market and must address the welfare of the horses. According to the American Veterinarian Medical Association, animal 82 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 welfare is described as a human responsibility that encompasses all animals' wellbeing including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, humane handling and when necessary, humane euthanasia. This should be the guidelines by which all future carriage regulations are modeled. Since the closure of Society Hill Carriage Company, 76 Carriage Company has tried unsuccessfully to improve the carriage industry in Philadelphia. We even took the unprecedented step of giving our main competitor, Philadelphia Carriage Company, our training manual in an effort to educate their management and drivers. Unless required, it is clear that not all carriage operators or horse owners will place the wellbeing of the horses above economic gain or other non-welfare issue.
Before I begin to address the regulatory issues and difficulty in complying with the cumbersome and lengthy carriage regulation, I would like to state that 76 83 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Carriage Company now finds itself in a difficult position of having to offer testimony which at times will not be positive regarding the people who will enforce the future carriage regulations. We would much rather be a willing participant in approving the industry rather than being placed in an adversarial position of the regulator versus the regulated. During the last three years, carriage regulations have been enforced in any of three categories: Zealously, sporadically, or not at all. It seems that everyone with a badge is now a horse expert and feels the empowered to impart their expertise and enforcement capabilities upon the horse and carriage. The Department of Public Health guidelines enables any police officer, Health Department officer or Independence National Historic Park ranger to issue citations to carriage operators. This leaves carriage operators prey to a variety of interpretations of each regulation. An example of this would be the temperature regulation -- 84 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Ms. Kramer. Excuse me for interrupting. I don't like to do that, but I was fast-forwarding in your testimony, and apparently you're going to elaborate on some of the comments that have been made by Mr. Slocum in areas such as operate hours, compromises, deviation of routes; and I appreciate all of that. I don't want to burden the record because of the time constraints and have to go through that. I think what we need to do is look at this, and I'll make a decision at the end of this hearing I think that we have to regroup, if you will, and start talking about this, similar to what we did in 2001. But I do want to make mention of what your testimony has to say and Mr. Slocum's testimony, in particular your comments you find yourself in an adverse position, you believe that City Council has a unique opportunity to correct the problems caused by the 2001 regulations development meaningful guidelines. That's what we tried to do in 2001. I certainly don't think it was 85 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 anyone's intention, be the industry, the animal rights advocates or City Council to put anyone in a position where we were doing something that was improper, incorrect or adverse to the industry. That may turn out -- in your opinion, that may have turned out to be exactly what has occurred, but that was never our intentions. And I also want to comment, Mr. Slocum's comments about 2001 because of highly publicized conditions of stables and or the treatment of horses causes us to have those hearings and come up with regulations. In earlier testimony today by either Mr. Goldsmith or Mr. Bashir, they were very critical of the KWY News report of February 2001 of this year. It's kind of history repeating itself. Had it not been for the media bringing to the public's attention and notwithstanding the good work that the SPCA and animal activist do year in and year out, we never have had the hearings in 2001, we wouldn't have the hearings today. And my belief is the condition of the stables would 86 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 have been much worse. To condemn City Council to that Health Department and KWY News people putting those things on the air and bringing it to the public's attention I don't think -- my hat is off to KWY and folks like that. I don't go around checking stables. I have a lot of other things to do. I think we what need to do is look at the recommendations and maybe regroup and put together f people to start looking at some of these recommendations that are coming from you, your company and the other companies, and see -- I'm sure there is room for improvement. I'm sure there are things that may need to be adjusted. No one is I'm suggesting that we're not going to do that. What I am suggest is that rather than go through each one today that in the interest of time and in order to get a better understanding -- many of my colleagues, as you see, are not here. It's not because they don't care. The Mayor is having briefings today, one at 11:00 and one 5:00 for all City Councilmembers concerning the fiscal state of affairs and the budget. Obviously, I'm here 87 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 because I called for this hearing. I'll be at the 5:00. Some of them went to the 11:00 briefing. I don't want you to think that they were not concerned enough about this to stick out the entire hearing. Some of them will return, I'm sure, before this hearing concludes. So I just want to get that on the record. Again, we were here in 2001 because of the media -- and I'm not always a favorite fan of the media nor are they a favorite fan of mine. But were it not for the media, most of those things that occurred in 2001 would still be going on today and there would have been no regulations or no change in the regulations. And the Health Department is doing the best job that they can do based on the limits of personnel. And I understand you say everybody has a badge is someone who all of a sudden is an expert.
Well, there are some changes we're proposing today. We're going hire a large animal veterinarian. The Department of Health is bringing someone on to start pointing 88 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 fingers as to where all the problems are. I think you have to start with the industry first. If we didn't those problems in 2001, and I'm not saying it's your company, but we did have serious problems in 2001, we wouldn't need all these people here today. So I would like to proceed. If you could summarize your statement, I would appreciate that and then we can go on with the other witnesses.
Sure. Actually, the bulk of the remaining of my testimony, what it summarizes is that the industry needs to better educate itself and to stress the welfare of the animals and that an often overburdened PACCA just is unable to come through and enforce and handle most of these regulations, some of which is that in later testimony of mine, you know, we offer to help to educate them provide them with a necessary materials. And all the information that we use which is based upon national industry standards because we do avail ourselves of that. And it is my hope that through a 89 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 cooperative effort of improved regulations, enhanced education and practical enforcement, the carriage horses and all horses living within the City of Philadelphia will benefit from these efforts. We certainly do not have any problem with the news reports or the regulations that ensued after the last incidents with the horses. You may remember that actually I took care of one of those horses when no one else was able to. So it's not that we don't regulations, we just would hope that they would be meaningful in how they address the situation.
I understand. And my comments were not directed at you personally or your company, I'm just speaking to the industry as a whole. And again, the media did play a crucial role in at least getting us to some point in 2001. And we obviously are here today because some of those things we thought would be more beneficial both to the industry and the care of horses has not worked out the 90 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 way we expected it to. So we're back again, and we're going to try to work this through over the next few months, work with the Health Department and other folks, again, to see if we can come up with a better solution so we don't have to have KWY and some of other people out there reporting on inhumane conditions in stables and the care of horses. Thank you. Since there is no one else on my panel, I will not have any further questions for you two witnesses. Thank you for your time. The next witness is Hollis Provins from the National Park Service -- I'm sorry, Mr. Provins, Bill Hawkins is next and then you. Mr. Hawkins, the Animal Advisory Committee; Valerie Philips, Animal Advisory Committee; and Pennelle Hopkins, Pennsylvania SPCA. Good morning. My name is Mary Aull, A-U-L-L, and I'm here as a member of the Animal Advisory Committee instead of Ms. 91 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Philips. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify before you. I personally have been a member of the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee for either or 6 years. And in that time we spent a good 12 7 years talking about animal carriage 8 regulations. And it wasn't until three years 9 ago when you got involved, Councilman, that 10 things made progress with the help of Mr. 11 Hawkins and other folks, and we really 12 appreciate that. 13 I just want you to know that I am 14 also President of the Board of Pennsylvania 15 SPCA, Secretary of the Board of Pals for Live, 16 District 2 Legislative Representative for the Humane Society of the United States, and former Director of the Morris Animal Refuge. I say all that for identification purposes only. I have been on the SPCA Board for the past five years and was unsure when we made the decision to turn animal control back to the City of Philadelphia. I wasn't sure the City could handle it. I was pleasantly 92 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 surprised when the Philadelphia Animal Care organization opened and was up and running so well. However, once PACCA opened, I do feel that in some ways the City dropped the ball. And, yes, I do know that money is tight. However, I think that there has not been enough money allocated for animal control in this City; there never has been. But when the Pennsylvania SPCA did animal control, we had the other resources of 137-year-old organization from which to draw so that if there wasn't enough money and there was a situation like a bad carriage stable or something, we could our other agents to go out. PACCA doesn't have other resources. And I'd be happy to come back to a budget hearing and say that over again. I did research for the Animal Advisory Committee along with some other people a number of years ago and found out that Philadelphia gives animal control less money than any comparable City in the United States. As we've all said, recently was reported on the news some carriage horse 93 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 stables in Philadelphia went seriously downhill. And I think that the lack of animal control time and money is at least partially responsible for this. I know that the Health Department and PACCA are doing all they can to rectify this, and I think that's great. Carriage horse problems can very quickly become human health and safety problems. Therefore, I feel it is imperative to ask for more funding for animal control. I think in terms of these regulations they're excellent. They can always use some fine tuning. No, the penalties are no where near the stiff enough. Twenty-five dollars is a cost of doing business to a table owner.
We are so lucky to live in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania where actual animal fighting is a felony. That isn't true in a lot of other states. But all of our other animal cruelty finds are such a slap on the wrist that even the individuals involved say, "Oh, well, whatever. " And that's not fair, it's not fair to the citizens of this great 94 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 City or the Commonwealth. I thank you for your time. I don't know if Bill or Pennelle wants to go next, unless you have questions for me specifically.
My background is I'm Vice President of the Board of Pennsylvania SPCA, advisor to the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, and not least of all, a representative of one of the two communities in which the horse carriage trade is conducted. We would like to ask your support for improvements to the current regulations governing commercial horse stables and rental and carriage horses in the City of Philadelphia. The fact that we are here just two years following the implementation of regulations passed only a few years prior to that emphasizes the continuing problems and issue surrounding this particular business. While some horses are well care for and some stables are in reasonably good condition, the sad fact is that others are not. Tourist 95 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 don't question whether a horse is in good condition, if the carriage well maintained or if the driver is even competent. That's the responsibility of the carriage company, the stable owners, and the City of Philadelphia. In a number of instances, we have failed. We have failed to ensure proper care of the horses and we have failed to enforce proper mandated business practices. That's not only put the horses at risk, but also tourists and others. Revisions to the current regulations were implemented two years ago following three years of data collection and countless meetings and discussions. They addressed compliance issues associated with business management, traffic flow, humane treatment of horses, and public and tourist safety. They were completed after considerable time spent by City agencies, representatives of the community and humane organizations, representatives and attorneys from the horse carriage companies, as well as the primary carriage horse expert in the United States. 96 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 The regulations were produced under the excellent leadership of the Health Department. The regulations were reached after many compromises, as you mentioned. All parties in the process gave up certain demands. Prior to these regulations, Philadelphia humane regs were among the weakest in the nation, and the stables regs were very rudimentary. Serious abuses existed at a number of the carriage companies. In fact, one stable owner was convicted of cruelty and is no longer in business. And other stables were in such deplorable condition that they were closed until substantial improvements could be made. A third company had to make a number of changes, including adding a turnout areas for the horses; something that you would thing is very basic, yet existed at only one of the carriage company stables. In the end, the result was a set of rules that was supposed to bring us into the 21st Century. Sadly, that has not happen. Today there are two primary carriage companies 97 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and one smaller one. Both the Philadelphia Police Department and Health Department have held meetings in the last couple of years with carriage company owners to an address some of the problems. I attended a number of those meetings. Unfortunately, despite frequent warnings and citations, one particular company has violated regulations on a consistent basis and yet continues to remain in business. And other riding stables within the City of Philadelphia also continue to abuse their horses. We've learned that from the Ferral stables which apparently were supposed to have been monitored, but apparently were not. Carriages go off routes. Drivers pick up passengers illegally. Horses are made to move at a fast trot so that the driver can get back to the staging area, often passing other carriages and thereby blocking two traffic lanes. Some horses are in harness far too long and way past the nine-hour regulation. Some drivers deliberately stay out way past the evening and night curfews and 98 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 sometimes never go in.
When challenged, they either claim ignorance of the regs or state that their management said it was okay to do so. I know of many instances when drivers from one company actually told enforcement officials that Councilman DiCicco had approved exceptions to the regulations for them, which of course is an absolute lie. The point system which was referred to earlier has not been enforced. If it is one or two companies would not be in business today. And frankly, the poor care of horses is either very visible and obvious or it is not. We've heard people try and explain away why a horse looks a certain way. Either a horse is, as Mike Slocum said, it's either healthy or not. Today, we not only ask for your support for the latest updates of the regulations, but also with the critical need for stricter enforcement and the closing of organizations that do not comply. The additional changes we ask to be included are 99 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 veterinary exams to be not less than twice a year. This should help to prevent future problems. Enforcement must also include checking reports at all stables in the City. Inspections of stables must be more than twice a year and be unannounced, not communicated in advance. We recommend that the Animal Advisory Committee have access to data detailing the status of stables and veterinary inspections as well as reports of violations and citations issued. The Committee would like to work more closely with the City agencies in the monitoring process. This is a practical request and can only help the City agencies with their efforts. Also, should not worked when the temperature over 90 degrees. Most cities high limits are 88 to 90, with only Philadelphia and one or two others over 90 degrees. Even the veterinarian for the largest carriage company during our meetings a few years ago 100 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 who was also the vet for the mounted police unit supported a threshold lower than the current 91. Our high humidity in the summer also is a problem for the heavier muscled horses. Plus, there is now no shade for the horses in the staging area on Fifth Street between Chestnut and Market. At the height of the summer it will be unbearable. This will be a major impact on horses and drivers. The carriage horse waste management plan must be submitted within 45 days, not 120 days. It's already been three years since the regs were passed and two years since they were finally introduced. Yet no plan has ever been presented to the City for review. More time means more delays, and the community is tired of waiting. For many years, we have had to endure the stench of horse urine and feces in the summer which we as taxpayers continue to pay to clean up, apparently. If that has changed, then I'd like to be told. m. throughout the weekdays and place a time limit on when the last fair can be picked up. 101 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 I see carriages out at o'clock. I live at Fifth and Sixth and Spruce, so I see the carriage go up and down the streets all the time. The Second and South Street staging area should be eliminated. It is an ill-advised location for horses and carriages too close to potential alcohol-related and traffic problems on South Street. We must also begin to place a cap on the number of carriages in the City. A recent headline story in the Philadelphia Business Journal highlights just how serious the staging situation is due to the recent explosion of tourist transportation operations. The 45 to 50 carriages now compete with a variety of other vehicles. Traffic problems in the Society Hill and Old City communities have steadily grown worse since the arrival of the ducks and the big bus transportation options. To many residents, it's beginning to look like Disney World out there. That's why strict curfews, tighter enforcement, elimination of those companies 102 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 that will not abide by the regulations and a sensible, practical cap on carriages and other tourist company vehicles is important. It's about quality of life. We must do a much better job of balancing community needs with business needs. Too often the community gets the short end of the stick. On March 2, 2001, the City, in response to questions regarding the carriage regulations from a City Transportation Department expert stated that the City does have the right to impose a limit on the number of carriages allowed to operate in a particular district without infringing on individual Constitutional rights and that there is no legal impediment to do so. I have a copy of those communications. Without strict enforcement, rules and regulations and why we are here today become meaningless. During the first few months following the approval of the current regulations by City Council and the Mayor, enforcement was reasonably good. However, for some time it has been inconsistent and in some 103 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 instances nonexistent, although the City's beginning to monitor more closely again. If the City does not fully enforce, then the result is constant violations, including problems similar to those that we've discussed today and covered in the media. In one case, I had asked the City on a couple of occasions weeks about the media story broke to check allegations of poor health of some of the horses at the particular carriage company but sadly received no 13 response. With proper enforcement and follow-up, the problem could have been resolved and negative media coverage to the City avoided. There's also the issue with the stables that were located at 31st and Master Streets in North Philadelphia. Not only were those stables condemned but also the horses were removed, housed, fed, treated, apparently at taxpayers' expense for 60 days. Plus, the City is paying one half of the rent for the first three months at the licensed stable that the horse owner may select once those 60 days 104 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 expires. That's what I heard from the media. I don't know if that is accurate. If that is, then we have a problem. The purpose for mentioning these two examples is that we need a consistent, objective approach to enforcement. Why the special treatment? Plus, they may be the tip of the iceberg of horse abuse in Philadelphia. " Well, how many other "we didn't know about thats" are out there? The owners of those stables should pay fines for their violations and reimburse the City for all expenses incurred. These costs must not be borne by taxpayers. It's outrageous. Something is very, very wrong here. This also applies to the horse carriage waste management program that has languished for two years. It is mandated in the already existing regulations but has never, never been enforced. Why not? Meanwhile, each of us in this room is 105 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 subsidizing the City on behalf of the horse carriage companies for streets cleanup services. The last I heard it was in the vicinity of $30,000 a year. We need clear tough and humane regulations. Most of all, we need strict and consistent enforcement by the City. As background, I have with me a few examples of the many communications regarding countless violations and allied issues associated with carriage companies within just the recent three-year period. I also have a large amount of data from 1995 onward. And these data, although accurate, are only my and those of a few others random observations. Just think if we had a formal database of such violations. The shear volume would be huge. Philadelphia took an important step when the updated regs were introduced. Since them, representatives from cities and organizations throughout the country and even outside of the US have been in touch with me to find out more about what we do and the improvements we have made. We have begun to 106 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 develop a good reputation in this area. We must not go back to the bad old days. It is the hope of al those who support sound business practices, sincere humane treatment of horses, quality of life, and a clean community that you will help ensure that the regulations in the City of Philadelphia are strengthened and strictly enforced. Thank you very much for your time today, Councilman.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Before the next witness testifies, refresh my memory; it's been a while. Who was responsible for submitting the waste management plan? Was that the industry?
It was the industry. And the last I heard, it was not factored into any of the costs of doing business. If that has happened subsequently, I certainly haven't been informed and I've been trying to stay on top of this for the last couple of years.
I know you have. Thank you. 107 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Yes, ma'am, do you wish to testify?
My name is Pennelle Hopkins. I'm a humane police officer for Pennsylvania SPCA, and I specialize in equine investigations. Most of the things that I had at issue have been covered, so I'm not going to take time on that. I just want to reinforce a couple things. Inspection is useless if there's going to be a warning given.
Turnout is essential, and I've seen very little facilities for turnout when I've been to any of the stables.
Turnout for exercise for the horses, as mandated in the Health Department's regulations. There's been no mention about cooling the horses when they are in the street and hot weather, whether it's 90 degrees or not, the heavier draft horses are extremely susceptible to heat prostration. And I work in Lancaster County. I see deaths in the 108 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 spring constantly, so I would say that maybe some water spray, something carried would be a necessity to keep these horses from overheating. We heard testimony about horses dumping their heads into freezing cold water get a drink, which they're pretty desperate for water to have to do that. It's very simple to get water heaters and much healthier for the horses. Horses do not like to drink freezing water and won't drink enough and they are much more at risk for health issues, including colic which is often times deadly. I believe that covers the high points of what I wanted to say. You can legalize attitude and, therefore, you have to rely upon enforcement, enforcement, enforcement.
I agree. Ms. Hopkins, in your role with the SPCA, if you had to grade Philadelphia's horse carriage industry being poor, being excellent, where would you grade it in terms of the overall, the condition of stables, 109 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 treatment of horses, et cetera?
I'm not asking about an individual company, just generally.
The stables that I have been to have abysmal. I would grade them maybe a 1 or 2. The horses, I would say on the average, have been below average with some very poor exceptions.
The condition of the horses and the housing of the horses. The carriage industry, I have not delved deeply into that in a consistent basis. I received a complaint only Saturday from one of the people that was here, a nationally known horse person teaching the disaster rescue and planning for horses as well as bioterrorist and some other issues at-large concerning an underweight carriage horse and one with very overgrown hoofs.
Are you 110 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 familiar with any other municipalities where there's a horse carriage industry?
Well, their housing is better in Lancaster generally because it's not in a city situation. They are monitored pretty closely in Lancaster County. You're really putting me on the spot here.
Are they being monitored more regularly than we do in Philadelphia, generally speaking.
You're familiar with the fines and the cost of doing business for the industry here?
Do you know what they may be in Lancaster County 111 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 comparing, again, to Philadelphia?
The carriage industry is regulated only by the cruelty law, Pennsylvania State Cruelty Law. In Lancaster County, a minimum fine is $50. Most district justices will impose more than that.
Thank you. I want to thank the three of you for the time that you spend trying to help this industry and especially for the care of the horses. I know Bill and I go back and forth often on e-mails. There's no compensation for some of you for what you do. I appreciate the volunteerism and your concern. I think what we're going to have to do, as I said earlier, probably go to the drawing table again and just try to figure this out in hopes that we come up with a better product than we had from 2001.
I want to thank you very much. I would hate to have to think that we're go to go reinvent what we went through before because literally it was countless hours by a lot of people, a lot of experts. 112 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Regardless of what you hear to the contrary, it was a lot of expert testimony provided that came in from other cities as well and we had experts from outside the cities, including the lead equine expert for the horse carriage industry here. In fact, she helped to develop some of the stables regulations. I do agree that where there are regulations that are unnecessary, that even maybe part of what we currently have that we should re-look at those. But conversely, we also need to look at what we need to do to make them more strict, perhaps, in the areas of fines and in certain other humane areas that Mike Slocum mentioned earlier.
I'm not suggesting that we throw out everything we've done and start from scratch, by no means. Some of these things I think that you brought up and others have brought up are already addressed in the Health Department's recommendations. To conduct a minimum of quarterly inspections and more frequently would address concern that they need to be 113 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 frequently. I think there was someone that suggested that examinations be provided at least two times a year. You had suggested that. So those things we're already going to go agree to anyway, but there are some other areas I think that -- in terms of the fines and the other issues that we feel are important enough, again, notwithstanding that we did make some accomplishments in 2001. We're not going to invent the wheel.
If I could add just one point. The point I made earlier about the Animal Advisory Committee playing more active role with the City agencies, I think we played a certain role up till now, but I don't know that we've been as active as we probably should be and need to be and I think we can do a great service to the City by working closely with the Health Department. If we can help with some of those reporting and act as almost an intermediary, I think that's going to help the City. And we're volunteers; we don't get paid for what we do so we're going to be very objective on each of the issues that we 114 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 handle.
And I think that's probably the way we need to go. When you meet, when the Advisory Committee meets, is it normally among yourselves, I mean, there's no one from the industry that's there generally? What happens at those meetings?
We spent a lot of time meeting before your committee got involved with members from the industry, and primarily only from --
Before you got involved in 2001. Primarily, the carriage company 76 was represented. They were really good about coming to the meetings. And there were people on our Committee who are extreme animal rights people who don't believe that animals should be used in entertainment. So we had lots of differing points of view, to say the least. We can have anybody we want at our meetings. We always have people from the Health Department, from L&I, and from the Law 115 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Department there. They're assigned to our Committee. But we would be happy to have people from the industry come because if they have concerns that we may not be aware of, we'd like to include those.
And I think that's probably one of the reasons why we're here today is that there's not a complete group of people who are discussing this issue at the same time. And I don't know how I could -- I know Mr. Slocum was very helpful back in 2001. But I that's a continue that we need to look to go forward is to make certain -- and I don't know how we can do that legislatively, but maybe we make that part of the regulations that require a representative from each of the existing companies to attend these meetings, so that those issues are out there early on and maybe we can attack them before they become greater than they are, greater issues going forward.
If we do that, then I would suggest a subcommittee then because this is such a hot item that a subcommittee because 116 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 the Animal Advisory Committee covers all animal issues in the City.
I have no 5 problem with that, but I think that's the way we should go. That may become a requirement that a representative from each company attend those meetings. How often do you meet, quarterly?
But reasonably quarterly or something like that I think is reasonable unless there's a hot issue that you have to talk about. You can always call a special meeting. I think that line of communication is helpful. People get to know each other. See, I don't like this adversarial kind of thing. I think we've been down that road for too long, you know, our side versus the other side. How do we bring the two sides together to talk about it? And as I said earlier, at the end of the day, there's always going to be somebody who walks away from the 117 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 table not entirely happy with the results, but at least there's a line of communication that will allow for people to express their concerns and address them as best as possible. So again, I want to thank you for your time you spent on this. Thank you. The next witness is Lou Peluso. And I want to remind everyone, it is now 12:15. There is a budget hearing that will resume sometime around 1 o'clock. So while I appreciate your testimony that all of you want to give, I would ask you to be as concise as possible, make your points. And if need be, we'll just continue this hearing for another date.
Thank you for having me today. I hope we don't leave as adversaries like we did the last time. My name is Lou Peluso, P-E-L-U-S-O. My concern for the City's carriage horses spans 20 years. Having testified in 1986 118 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 before former Councilman Ed Schwartz, in 1994 before Councilwoman Marian Tasco, and having testified in 2001 before your first hearing on these carriage horses, Councilman DiCicco, it is great frustration and anger that I sit before today knowing that nothing has changed for these horse concerning the Philadelphia Carriage Company, and most likely nothing has changed for any of the overworked, neglected, misplaced and out-of-sight horses throughout the City. Why is it that the taxes used to fund the City agencies responsible for inspecting and enforcing the meager regulations concerning this cruel trade, never find the problems? Why is it that employees of this cruel trade are the ones that bring the City's attention to the neglect and abuse? Who is not doing their job on the tax payroll? And why aren't they exposing the neglect and abuse? Why are characters, the likes of Ellis Ferrel able to operate an illegal stable 119 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in a condemned building in Strawberry Mansion with horses suffering from open wounds, aye infections and overall inhumane conditions? How many more of these illegal and cruel operations are there in the City? And where are City agencies, CLIP PACCA, the police, the SPCA and Health Department? I can understand hiding one horse from such agencies, but an entire stable full in a condemned building, that speaks volumes that this City's lack of compassion and understanding and exposes Mr. Ellis Farrel as a callously greed-driven person to place working horses in such inhumane and dangerous conditions. How many more horses are suffering at this moment because someone isn't doing their job? Or is this a continuation of what was going on when the Animal Advisory Board back in the 1980s would replace the head of the Board every few months, never allowing the Board to progress with any of the recommendations found to better the lives of these horses. 120 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Since the death of Bishop, a horse that was literally worked to death, Philadelphians were led to believe changes were taking place and that these horses were being treated humanely. We find that nothing has changed with regard to the Philadelphia Carriage Company. Now, rather than working their sick horses as they did Bishop, the Philadelphia Carriage Company tortures them in stalls with empty water pails, manure-filled stables and stables with leaking roofs, all code violations of Section 2B, Subsections and of the regulations on commercial horse stables and rental carriage horses. Philadelphia still has the highest cutoff temperature of any large City for these horses to work in in summer heat. Philadelphia still doesn't have a heat index factored in as New York City, Chicago and New Orleans. All other major cities have the 90 degrees as a cutoff and lower temperatures of the heat index makes it feel above 90 degrees. Why is the City Council so reluctant to drop the temperature limit one more degree? 121 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Why is City Council so reluctant to add a heat index to the equation? Stop putting your personal agendas before the welfare of these four-legged ambassadors. When Philadelphians want to call during the summer months to make sure these horses are taken off the street in high temperatures, they are unaware of what agency to call. And if it's a weekend, it's literally impossible to contact the enforcing agency. This needs to change. It's too bad those empowered to do something to better the working and living conditions for these horses don't seem to care. If they did care, then as I stated in 2001, we wouldn't be here today.
If this City Administration is serious about changes things for the City's horses, then I suggest you put the right people in these inspection enforcement positions, not those who view these horses as just animals or just a paycheck. The only time these horses get the City's attention is when they give City Council a black eye. These horses need to be checked regularly, not once a year as has been 122 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 the policy. To say four or five times a year is meaningless. These horses need to be thoroughly checked on an unannounced, monthly schedule. How many more abuses need to occur before real action is taken on behalf of the welfare of these horses? Why should Philadelphians who care about these horses believe anything is going to change when we live in a City that could not find the funding to upgrade heating system of the zoo's primate house until a fire killed all of the primates? Why should Philadelphians believe this Administration is going change things for these horses when we've seen you allow bullets to be fired in our parks to manage deer when non-lethal methods were available? Why should Philadelphia believe this Administration is going to change anything for these horses when you would not find the funds to help a beleaguered Pennsylvania SPCA but found tens of millions of dollars to construct and operate the largest dog and cat slaughter 123 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 house tri-state area that goes under the dubious name of Philadelphia Animal Care and Control Agency? Why should Philadelphians believe this administration when you allowed all the squirrels of Rittenhouse and Washington Square as in the Parkway poisoned in your quest to kill rats when other safer methods were available? What do these actions send our children? That it's okay to kill your problem if it's quick and cheap? If you are truly serious about changing things for these horses, you would put the Philadelphia Carriage Company out of business. That would send a clear message to the rest of the carriage horse owners to straighten up their act or they too will have to go out and find real jobs. It's time to do the right thing and place the welfare of these horses above politics and self-interest. It's time you do your jobs as elected representatives of the people and not representatives of institutionalized cruelty. 124 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 On behalf of my friends, the carriage horses, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak for them, Councilman. And time will tell if you have the courage to do what is right for these horses. I hope you do, Councilman.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Peluso. Mr. Nick Cooney, a representative of PETA.
Councilman, I'd just like to clarify. I'm not a representative PETA. I have no affiliation with PETA. I'm a member of an animal rights organization in Philadelphia called Hugs For Puppies. We have approximately 100 members.
That's okay. Good afternoon. My name is Nick Cooney. I'm here to testify on behalf of our organization about the situation with Philadelphia Carriage Company and about the presence of carriage horses in Philadelphia in 125 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 general. As you've heard already, an investigation into the stables of the Philadelphia Carriage Company we've got a list of unhealthy and inhumane conditions, absent or frozen water, inadequate bedding, open sores on animals, excrement covering animals, and cramped conditions. I've been told that action has been taken to correct these problems, and I commend you, Councilman, on your work to address this problem. While conditions have hopefully approved for the horses, it's not because of any concern or responsibility on the part of the Philadelphia Carriage Horse Company. The changes came only after a televised investigation and government action. The Philadelphia Carriage Company has certainly shown that it has no interest in caring for the animals off of whose backs they make their profit. In our organization's opinion, the Philadelphia Carriage Company has forfeited its right to maintain a fleet of carriage 126 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 horses. Its permit to operate on the streets of Philadelphia should be taken away and its horses should be taken away as well. Unfortunately, the deplorable stable conditions for the horses are only part of the cruel treatment that these animals are forced to endure everyday. Carriage horses are exposed to bitter cold and to scorching heat. As you well know, summers in Philadelphia are pretty brutal with temperatures reaching up into the 90s on a regular basis. In a study by Cornell University showed that the actual asphalt temperature of the City streets can be up to 50 degrees greater than the recorded Weather Bureau temperature. So horses are forced to pull heavy loads in this heat all day long and often without adequate water. This past Sunday, I was walking down Fifth Street and there were about 20 carriage horses lined up on that road. And out of all of these 20 horses, only 2 had buckets of water sitting there for them to drink. This was the middle of the afternoon at about 2 o'clock. The temperature was about 85 degrees 127 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in the air and who knows how much hotter on the street. Besides the temperature, the horses are constantly exposed to smoke and to exhaust fumes. A study of carriage horses by veterinarian Jeffrey Rasal (ph) found out, and I'm quoting, "Tracheal washes and samples from the respiratory sections of these horses showed enormous lung damage, the same kind of damage you would expect from a heavy smoker. Carriages live a nose-to-tailpipe existence and it's certainly not a pleasant one. It should also be noted that most carriage horses are breakdowns from racing tracks or farming communities and enter the carriage horse industry with a history injuries and disabilities that only get worse. And when horses cannot pull heavy carriages, they are often sold to rendering plants or dog food companies. That's not the kind of retirement plan I would want, but it's what these horses have to look forward to after their years of work is over. A growing number of cities such as 128 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Palm Beach, Florida; Santa Fe, New Mexico; Las Vegas, Nevada; London, Paris, and Toronto have listened to the concerns of residents and banned carriage horses from their streets. It's time that Philadelphia to prevent the ongoing and future suffering of these creatures. Philadelphia's two or three carriage horse companies may claim they're bringing tourist revenue to the City, but the reality is that there are a few, if any, tourists who would stop coming to Philadelphia simply because carriage horses were no longer on the streets. Our City has a huge number of attractions and money not spent on a cruel carriage ride would simply be money spent elsewhere.
Thank you for your time and your concern on this issue. Please take it seriously, as it is very serious issue not only to the horses in question, but to many residents of the City as well. And just by way of closing, I'd like to make two final remarks. The first is that in your opening statements, Councilman, you 129 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 expressed two different desires. One is the desires that horses get the best treatment possible and that they be treated humanely. The other desire expressed is that the carriage horse industry continue to operate in Philadelphia. Unfortunately, these two desires are not reconcilable based on the very fundamental nature of the carriage horse industry. The second final remark I'd like to make is that I'm a little bit taken aback by the fact that some of the carriage horse company representatives have come up here today during a hearing that was called because of the ill treatment of horses and instead of addressing that problem, they've used this microphone as a platform to rale on how they need to be work their horses harder to have longer hours, to be able to treat them more cruelly. I think that pretty much shows myself, shows yourself, shows anyone in this audience that they are not concerned with the treatment of the horses, that they're concerned only with the profit that they're 130 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 making off of those horses. Thank you.
I appreciate your testimony, and I agree on many of your comments. Thank you. C'Anne Anderson, Callowhill Neighbors Association. She just stepped out? All right. Fred Ottazanio. Is Fred Ottazanio here? Valerie Trevigno. Annette Schwartz. Brian Cane. When C'Anne comes in, just point her out to me and I'll let her come up to the witness table. Good afternoon, Mr. Cane. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Brian Cane. I'm the general manager of the Philadelphia Carriage Company.
You need speak a little bit louder into the microphone.
My name is Brian Cane. I'm the general manager for the Philadelphia 131 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Carriage Company. Thank you for your time and thank you for this opportunity to speak before you. I've heard a lot of good and a lot of bad being said today about the carriage industry. I don't think we would be here without the media attention, without people being genuinely concerned about what happens within the carriage industry, and I am glad personally that people do keep an aye out for the horses because I look out for them as well. I'm very serious about training our drivers and staying on the backs of the drivers about the proper treatment, the proper care of our horses. It seems to me that this did come about, this hearing came about from surreptitious means, through bribery. And I'm not afraid to say that. It is irresponsible reporting. Middle-of-the-night type of operation that came into the stable when our stable is open for inspection. So there was no reason why those cameras could not come in during the daytime. 132 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Would the conditions be different in the afternoon than they were at night?
I would have to be tell you they would be in certain cases, yes, sir.
I'm talking about the specific report that KWY did in the night, regardless of how they got there, are you suggesting that the condition of the stable or stables and the condition of the horse or horses that was reported would have been any different had they come in the afternoon? That horse got into that condition in less than 12 hours and the stable came to the condition that it was reported in less six, seven hours?
What I am trying to tell you, sir, that there is a process each day that is followed each day for the proper care of the stalls. If you come during the day after they're cleaned and into the afternoon, you're not going to find as much feces and manure as you would in the middle of the night. No carriage company, no stable comes 133 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in with their people in the middle of the night shoveling the manure out. Any horse is going to appear to have feces on him, sir.
What's the latest time of the day that the stables are cleaned, generally?
I know that the reporters came in around 10 in the evening, sir.
That's correct. That six to seven matters in the appearance of a horse yes, sir, it does.
To the degree that that horse looked? In seven hours --
They can look that much dirtier. That's why it really upset me that anybody would do an diagnosis over a videotape rather than getting on site to actually inspect the horses. 134 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
And the lack of bedding all occurred within seven hours? The frozen water, the condition of the water, the bucket?
It sounds like you are. It sounds to me as though you're criticizing the reporting and suggesting that there was nothing wrong at the stable.
What I'm saying is that things are being misrepresented and put in a bad light. Now, if they were being taken in their proper context, then it would have been a different story. But that doesn't appear to be the way things are wanting to go. Now, I don't want to be on an adversarial position with you or the City Council or any of the other people. In fact, I am actually recommending that a 135 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 representative from each of the carriage companies be included on the Mayor's Animal Action Committee, not as just there to be innocent bystanders, but actually to be there when there are decisions made about our industry. We do have too many people that are being given the authority to tell us what to do when they do not have experience in horses at all. I thought it was quite ridiculous that Councilman Ramos would say anything about Smarty Jones and a carriage horse.
I don't think that was ridiculous. I think he was trying to --
They're two different breeds, they have nothing to do with each other.
Sir, I'm running this hearing. I think what he was pointing out is, A, he was trying to educate himself as to the types of food that horses eat, wondering if these horses are getting the same type of nourishment. He said, quite 136 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 frankly, "I don't anything about horses." He was asking a question. Now, some people may find some humor in the fact that he used Smarty Jones as an example, but he is a horse and he was questioning whether or not there are certain regulations or certain types of feed that these horses are required to be fed. I think that's the intent of question. I, quite frankly, think it was a proper question.
I think the contrary. Our business is being oppressed right now, sir. This is not time for levity. He should have educated himself before as anybody else that wants to deal with this situation should educate themselves about horses and maybe --
We think members of this City Council have nothing else to do but read up on horses and the condition of horses? Do you think that's all we have to do?
No, sir, but when you want to regulate them, you should educate yourself.
Don't you think 137 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 there's a responsibility of the part of the industry to make sure that these horses are properly cared for?
And you're going to come in here and suggest that the condition of the horse that was reported on KWY, all that occurred with a period of seven hours?
I'm talking about the manure, sir, not the condition of the sore. The sore was explained.
What happened to the horse after the report was put on KWY? What happened to the horse after that?
The horse was under the 138 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 veterinarian's care, sire, and that's on paper.
After the news report by KWY, what, if anything, occurred with the horse? Was there additional medication, doctoring, if you will, for the horse?
I repeat, sir, he was under a veterinarian's care. What needed to be done was being done by the vet and directed by the vet to our stable people.
And you're going to tell me the condition of the stable was adequate?
No, you said to me earlier, had they come earlier in the day, the condition would have been different. I'm asking you at the time --
That is correct. It's, again, what they're taking about, about the appearances of the horses. To an educated eye -- an educated eye would know the good 139 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 condition of a horse. A person just walking down the street would not know the good condition of a horse. They just know what they suspect that they would see. A horse covered with manure may appear to be not being taken care of, when in fact a horse will lay his head on a warm pile of manure to rest on, sir. If you stick around a stable once an in a while like I have, you would see this happen, and it's not irregular.
I could see the headlines now, "Councilman's out riding a horse while City of Philadelphia is going up in flames."
I don't think it's ridiculous. I think that there's a serious issue here.
Then it's not ridiculous. We agree it's not ridiculous. I don't think you mean to use the word 140 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 "ridiculous."
What I think is ridiculous, sir, is that people are being put in charge of this industry who do not have the education to make valid regulations for the industry.
We're going to see about that. Maybe we're going to get people who are experts, and then there will be no excuses.
I would volunteer to be on the Mayor's Animal Action Committee or their subcommittee and work with them to better conditions for our City.
We'll take that under consideration thank. You for your testimony.
Did you get my e-mail? Did you get my response yesterday?
My response was, I understand your concern, appreciate your 141 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 comments, look forward to seeing at the hearing tomorrow, which is today, and that we were hopefully get to the heart of whether these allegations are true or false or whatever.
I hope so too. My name is C'Anne Anderson, I'm from the Callowhill Neighborhood Association and I live next door to Philadelphia Carriage Company. I am concerned that an awful light of scrutiny is being paid to an operation that I think runs rather well. I do not claim to be an expert on horses. I grew up with them. I've been around stables. I know that you can come at one time and the stables look less clean than they do at another. You can't muck a stable hours a day. I don't think that 20 that news cast was fair and that it got in at 21 the right time. I have to say I never even 22 saw the news cast. But it does feel like 23 there's been a lot of scrutiny paid to an 24 operation and a lot of accusations made, and I don't see any evidence that the horses are 142 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 mistreated. I see the stables mucked daily. I am there a lot, and I see the horses walked up and down the street to cool them and I see then taking rather nice care of and they are talked to and they are loved. This doesn't feel right to me. And on a larger scale, what worries me with all the regulations that we're talking about is that we will drive another really wonderful piece of Philadelphia out. We no longer have the street cars. The last of that operation was a volunteer operation down on the riverfront. And we regulated and urban removed them completely. The street cars were wonderful. We sold most of our collection, a lot of it to San Francisco. Why did we do that? I don't want to see the same thing happen to the horse carriages.
Understand that we -- when you say "we" I think you're speaking of the City of Philadelphia. We didn't do that. That's SEPTA. And I fully agree that I would rather see the trolleys 143 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 back in service, and I've been fighting a long time get that back in service. But that's not why we're here. I just want to clear the record that we are not selling those things, that's SEPTA.
We are not SEPTA, but the City has a lot of say on things like that.
Unfortunately, we have very little say. It's run by -- the suburban counties have the majority of the votes on the SEPTA Board. Actually, I have a son who sits on the SEPTA Board, so I think he would like to make his father happy and put the trolleys back, but they are just not able to do that.
Without going too far down this path, what happened to the ones that were the volunteer organization down there? I mean, that was City regulations. We do have some power. But whether or not -- that case aside, that was one thing I saw disappear, and I don't want to see this disappear. And I'm afraid that over-regulation will do that. And I think that most important 144 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 point made here today was that there's a lot of non-expertise floating around and that what a horse looks like to people who don't know and people who do is a completely different thing. And I'd hate to see a little bit of misinformation turned into something that basically over-regulates an industry out that I think is a good thing for Philadelphia.
That's certainly not my intention. I don't know if you were here earlier this morning when I made my opening remarks. I don't intend to do that. We'll all decide whether it's too much regulations or not enough. People will always have a difference of opinion. But as for the news reporting -- and it sounds like I'm on KWY's payroll right now -- we only got here because of that news coverage and we got here in 2001 because of the same problems. This is not singling out one individual. KWY went to that one particular stable. This is an industry. It's always been an industry issue for me.
I would hope that it 145 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 would be kept an industry issue.
So that you know, because I understand there were some suggestion out there in your neighborhood in particular that I may be doing this because I have a special place in my heart for Michael Slocum and his operation and there may be some political considerations that I'm trying to address. I can tell you, nothing can be further from the truth. Had it not been for that KWY News report and enormous amount of e-mails and calls that I received as a result of that, we probably wouldn't be here today. We did legislation in 2001. There's an advisory committee, there's the SPCA, there's the Health Department, there's a lot of agencies out there who helped to put that together. I, for the most part, thought that the majority of those issues were being addressed. But for that news coverage, I would still today think that those issues had been addressed adequately except from time to time there's always an issue that may pop up. 146 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 I'll get an e-mail from Bill Hawkins telling me that they were still out there after -- and I'm not putting Bill on the spot, but I get those periodic complaints or concerns. But this was something that was too obvious and too much in my face and everybody else's face to totally ignore. This is not about putting Philadelphia Carriage Works out of business or any of the three companies. It is about addressing those concerns. And there are a whole host of concerns that we have to look at.
But it does seem that today's hearings have been pointedly at Philadelphia Carriage Company, and I haven't heard a lot of support or a lot of testimony that proves that proves that in fact the horses were being abused. And I do not see that. As someone who sees that operation on a daily basis, I just don't see that happening.
I understand that. Because of these hearings, I would hope that we have stepped up enforcement and inspection so that we do not have to do this 147 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in another six months or a year. Although I will ask, and I said this earlier, I will ask that the interested parties, including the industry, join with the Animal Advisory Committee to sit down on a regular basis, maybe quarterly, to talk about the issues as it relates to the industry so that maybe we can prevent some of these things from reoccurring. And there are some issues that are out there that the industry has asked for a relaxation or changes in the temperatures, the high, the low, in the hours of operation, and routes. Those are things that we have to sit down and collectively discuss and see if there is any room for negotiations or reconsiderations. I don't have the answer today. But I'm here. I'm going to recess this Committee to the call of the Chair so it doesn't end to keep everybody on notice that there is a problem out there. There are some issues out there that need to be addressed and we're going to work to address those problems.
I certainly would 148 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 like to say that I like the idea that more of the carriage people themselves would be involved. And I also heard a suggestion that people from outside who run stables outside the City maybe be called in as members of whatever advisory thing so that you really have horse people doing this.
That seemed the most to me, because I feel a lot of what's going on here didn't have to do with --
I can also say to you, going back again to 2000 and 2001, because of the media coverage as it relates to a prior owner of one of the carriage companies, that person was put out of business because it was proven beyond a doubt that that owner did not act responsible. Horses were not bing properly cared for, they were diseased horses. Many of them had to be taken away and put out to a farm somewhere out in Pennsylvania to recuperate. So there is some need for these kinds of oversights and reviews. And again, I 149 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 think that what we need to do is continue to do keep the pressure on, if you will, to the degree that we don't have the similar situation that occurred back in 2001. No one wants to see that. That's not the result that we're looking for. Is there anyone else here who did not testimony and wishes to testify? Please come forward. I would ask, again, in the interest of time, we do have a copy of your testimony --
We'll give it to stenographer and it will be made part of the public record.
My name is Keith Rodimer. I'm the manager of the Philadelphia Carriage Company. I guess the most important thing was what brought us here day, the KWY news report.
Well, someone agrees with me finally. 150 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
It's important to be noted just like a general operation of our stables AN most of carriage or any horse stables anywhere. In the morning around 7:00 a.m., the stable hands, maybe two or three or of them THAT work at our stable will start to remove some of the horses -- I'm sorry, that happens later. At 7:00 a.m., they'll get fresh water, they empty out all buckets. In each stall at our stable, there's two water buckets just to make sure that they have enough water through the night. Every horse will get lots of hay. And around 8:30, 9:00, the carriage drivers start to come in.
Let me get that straight. At 7:00 or so someone comes in and starts --
Fed and re-watered. Bedding and all that is taken of?
Not at that time because they're going to be leaving. 151 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
The cleaning of the stall happens when the horses that are going out of that day leave, because it's easier.
So the horses are still primarily in the stall between 7:00 a.m. from the time they leave?
Now, during that time between like 9:30 and 11:30, that's when the stalls get cleaned. Every horse gets taken out. They'll be taken out to the little like alleyway where our carriage groom their horse every day. Now, when the carriage drivers take them out, it's their job to clean and groom the house to make sure they're basically clean of all the debris, all the excrement so 152 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 they're basically nice on the street. Nobody wants to ride in a carriage with a dirty horse. Now, when they come in like approximately 3:30, 4:00, at that time they have fresh bedding, fresh water, and they have fresh hay. That's when they eat. They're at that period from like maybe 4:00 to 6:00 p.m.
No, when they come in from being on the street, they come in, they take the tack off the horse, they wash him down, the groom him and then put him back into the stall where they have fresh hay, fresh water and fresh bedding there.
So that's about the approximate time that Mr. Crane said that the last time that the stall is cleaned out.
Correct. Every 153 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 morning, each stall in the barn is cleaned. So you've got to understand, during that whole time, especially if the horse didn't work that day, he's had from approximately, I'd say, like noontime until when KYW came into our barn at o'clock to just basically sit 8 around and eat and poop, basically. 9 So when the horse at nighttime, a 10 lot of horses like to lay down. We have some horses that will poop in the corner and lay down on the side; they don't lay in their own excrement. Some horses, they don't care, they like to get dirty. Some horses stand up because they don't like to lay down. When the cameras came in that day at 10 o'clock, approximately, I don't care what stable you go to worldwide, you're going to find some horses laying in their own in excrement. When I saw the footage of KWY, I was sick; it made me sick. But because I know and like the people that work in our industry know that that's what horses do, we were even -- I myself was even more angry because of the way 154 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 that report showed the way we treat our horses. Now, in response to some of the things that was represented in that story, KWY said that some of the horse stalls had no 7 buckets of water. They failed to actually show any of those stalls; they didn't go into the stall with a camera and show the buckets without water. Four of our horses were out on turnout, they were in a farm. We don't give the horses water if they're not there, basically. As far as the dirty water, especially around that time, the horses have had time to eat, the hay sticks to their face, to their tongues, the sawdust gets, you know, matted to their lips, they put their head in the water, the water gets dirty. As far as the water being frozen, I understand like that was during a cold spell. We were told that we got to fix that problem. And during the night when that happens previously in and even up until that point, the stablehand that's over there overnight 155 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 will go around and make sure they poke a screw driver or something like that to make sure there's surface ice on the water. Another thing that KYW said, one of our horses had no bedding and that they were sleeping on concrete floor. Every stall in our barn is made of wood. It's in the Health Department regulation that the floor boards has to be made wood to allow for absorption and drainage of the horses excrement and things. Now, the type of sawdust that we use is very absorbant, so when the horse excretes its fluids it will, of course, shrink. And one of the things that we got written up for that day was there was inadequate bedding, not no bedding. It was inadequate and that's because it goes from 6 inches to about 3. The Health Department, when they do come to our stable, they're always unannounced; all the time. They come at different times during the day, always to make sure that there's somebody here. They never really come at night because they don't work 156 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 at night, they work during the day. " Another thing that was said that there was one horse that had difficulty breathing. And in one section of the KWY's report, you see the camera going up to one of our horses Captain Timmy, and the horse like blows out AND backs up. And especially the people who work in the carriage industry, they can see that the horse was frightened. It's 10:00 at night, he was just eating, he was probably sleeping and he wakes up to a bright light and a camera in his face and he backs up. Another horse has been working for us for over 15 years and never had any health problems. You have to understand that this carriage company, in years doing business, 22 has never had any fines whatsoever. Just 23 seeing the way this report was geared towards 24 us particularly was extremely upsetting. And, 25 like all of our drivers that can testify if 157 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 you ask them, that when they work with a horse, that's their pet. If anything, if they see anything going wrong with the horse, the first thing that they'll do is go to the owner to make sure, like how come this horse isn't getting enough fed or whatever like that. Not that that happens, but I'm just saying that's how much they care for the horse. What I feel the most upsetting is the reason why we're here today was -- I don't want to say false pretense. Because the report of KWY did not tell the whole story. They did not show the four tons of hay above all the horses. They didn't show the horses being re-watered every day. They didn't show the horses being groomed every day. I sincerely wish that anybody that thinks that we are abusing the horses to come by any time.
No, you just can't send somebody. The testimony today is we need more professional people, and that's what we're going to do. We're going to figure out a way in getting more professional people 158 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 out there, not just somebody; not me, not anybody else, but somebody who knows about these issues. Not just your stable, by the way, it's to the other two stables as well.
It's because of the report and it's because we're here today because of the report. And if there's nothing going wrong at the stable and all these things that you're telling me are as great as they sound, then nobody has anything to worry about. I've said that before.
But the effect of that report and of these hearings here has detrimental effects on our business, on our drivers' well-being because they're going around driving downtown being called horse abusers when these are the animals that they love and they take care of.
Understand when we go back to 2000 again, had it not been for the news coverage that was basically a result of employees who worked for that particular 159 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 operator telling us about those conditions, those conditions might still be existing today. So sometimes it actually works out to everybody's advantage. And I think at the end of the day, not today but whenever the day comes when we have some of the other issues wrapped up, the industry should be a better industry for all of us, including the horses. But I do have one question for you, because I have three other witnesses and we're about to get started with the 1:00 hearing. Based on your testimony, Mr. Crane's testimony, it's somewhere around 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon is when the stalls are cleaned out, excrement is removed, hay is provided, new water.
Let me finish 160 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 what I'm saying. The report was done somewhere 10, o'clock at night, the KWY 4 report. 5
So whatever 7 time during the early part of the day, whether 8 it was 9:30 a.m. or 3:30 p.m. whatever, until 9 the next morning, the stalls are not cleaned, 10 which is in excess of 12 hours. Do you think 11 in that opinion that that's appropriate? I don't know. I'm not in the business. You're talking a minimum of 12 hours before any cleaning, replenishing of hay taking care of the water is done for at least 12 hours.
Well, the hay and the water, they get fresh hay and fresh water, at, I'll say, 7:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. or 9:00 p.m. So when KYW was there --
According to Mr. Krane's testimony, nobody's there after 3:30 or so, that's it, and that's why the condition of the stable was what it was because it was 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night. 161 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
You had your time. If you want to speak, I'll recognize you in a few minutes, Mr. Crane. Thank you
We have a 24-hour stablehand at the site. And it's his responsibility to approximately like 9:00 or 10:00 to give the horses fresh water and fresh hay.
So I go back to my point, that based on the coverage of KWY and the condition of the stable which had the water had hay it in, straw, and I understand your explanation, limited amount of straw, hay, whatever was in there, that all happened in one hour, it all disappeared in one hour? If you're telling me the stablehand is there 10:00 p.m. and the news coverage was at 11:00, those conditions all happened in now hour? Before it was seven hours.
The stalls were not cleaned at the time. The stalls only they clean in the morning.
That's my 162 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 point. So it's hours minimum before the stalls are cleaned again. I'm asking is that appropriate? Is that something that meets standards? I don't know.
As far -- I mean, in 7 all honesty, you'd have to ask the horse. 8
The last horse 9 I know who spoke was Mr. Ed. And before that 10 when I was a very young boy, it was a donkey 11 named Francis, but outside of that, I don't 12 know of any horse that will give me an answer. I need to ask people. I'm not going to ask the horse. That gets ridiculous, although I don't like to use that word. I'm asking people who tell me that they're doing everything they need to do to provide sanitary, healthy environments for the horses.
One the reasons for cleaning the stalls is to prevent mold and sores on the horse. In over the years that 22 we've been in business caring for the horses, 23 we have never had any sores or any type of 24 ailments or sickness occur because of only 25 cleaning the stalls once a day. 163 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
I don't mean to cut off your testimony. There are three other witnesses. Do you have anything to -- and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the Council President is here. The other hearing is about to resume. Do you have anything to add to this testimony that has not already been discussed of any significance? Could you come forward be as brief as possible. I'd appreciate that. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Casey McQuillan, M-C-Q-U-I-L-L-A-N. I own and operate the Kind Cafe located at 724 North Third. I am on the homebound route of the 76 Carriage Horses and watch them return them every day. Friday, May 7, during a brief storm at about 4 o'clock, a trash can blew into the street and spooked one of the horses which wildly galloped off the street, down the sidewalk, taking out a tree and missing a group of 2-year-olds, about 20 of them, who 164 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 stood on the corner of Second and Third on their way to the park right down the street. So I'm here to say that I think we all agree that the horses should be treated well. But I'm also here to say that I don't think the drivers of these horses have any control over them. And that fact was actually stated to me by Ms. Kramer after I reported the incident to the police. She came to me and said that though they train horses as well as they can and they train the drivers as well, a horse is a horse and it's a very large animal that cannot, in fact, be controlled under all circumstances by a human. And as someone who grew up with horses, I am all too aware of their awesome strength and power and free will. And if a horse wants to take off, it will take off. And I witnessed that outside of my cafe the other day. And I worry for the safety of the children in my neighborhood. I worry for the safety of my elderly clients who could not get out of the way if they tried. And I also wonder if this may not me an antiquated business where 165 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 perhaps these large farm animals do not belong in service on a crowded street in the City of Philadelphia.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. I appreciate your patience in waiting to testify. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name Jennifer Bofinger, B-O-F-I-N-G-E-R. As a former employee of People For the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and I will tell you that I am imposed to carriage horses in general. However, I know that's not the issue here today and I'm just going skip to one thing, and that's the discussion of fines. In 2000, Mr. Slocum reported or was quoted in the Philadelphia Business Journal as saying --
Excuse me. If you have to do private conversation, please do it outside. This witness is try to go testify. It's very difficult for the stenographer to hear the 166 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 testimony. Thank you Mr. Slocum stated in the Philadelphia Business Journal in 2000, which is four years ago, that his business was going to yield $2 million in revenue. Now, I don't know what it's yielding now, but a $25 fine for animal cruelty is nothing, as we've just heard to. And animal cruelty laws, as was stated earlier, are not strict in this stat and many states because animals are regarded as property. So if we get anything out of this, I would hope that the fines would be raised so that it would be an economic disadvantage to treat an animal cruelly. Thank you.
I appreciate your testimony. I think you're pretty much on target with that as well.
This concludes the hearing on the Committee of Streets and Services. I'm going to recess this hearing to the call of the Chair. That means at some later point when all of these discussions and these meetings take place, we may have some 167 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 new regulations, some new information to put out there. So rather than advertise for a new hearing, we'll just recess to the call of the Chair. It probably won't happen until the fall, but if we have to do it sooner, we will. Thank all of you for your time in attending today's hearing. Thank you. (Council adjourned at 1:05 p.m.) - - - - 168 C E R T I F I C A T I O N. I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, May 18, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON STREETS AND SERVICES _________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR