Ms. Kramer. Excuse me for interrupting. I don't like to do that, but I was fast-forwarding in your testimony, and apparently you're going to elaborate on some of the comments that have been made by Mr. Slocum in areas such as operate hours, compromises, deviation of routes; and I appreciate all of that. I don't want to burden the record because of the time constraints and have to go through that. I think what we need to do is look at this, and I'll make a decision at the end of this hearing I think that we have to regroup, if you will, and start talking about this, similar to what we did in 2001. But I do want to make mention of what your testimony has to say and Mr. Slocum's testimony, in particular your comments you find yourself in an adverse position, you believe that City Council has a unique opportunity to correct the problems caused by the 2001 regulations development meaningful guidelines. That's what we tried to do in 2001. I certainly don't think it was 85 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 anyone's intention, be the industry, the animal rights advocates or City Council to put anyone in a position where we were doing something that was improper, incorrect or adverse to the industry. That may turn out -- in your opinion, that may have turned out to be exactly what has occurred, but that was never our intentions. And I also want to comment, Mr. Slocum's comments about 2001 because of highly publicized conditions of stables and or the treatment of horses causes us to have those hearings and come up with regulations. In earlier testimony today by either Mr. Goldsmith or Mr. Bashir, they were very critical of the KWY News report of February 2001 of this year. It's kind of history repeating itself. Had it not been for the media bringing to the public's attention and notwithstanding the good work that the SPCA and animal activist do year in and year out, we never have had the hearings in 2001, we wouldn't have the hearings today. And my belief is the condition of the stables would 86 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 have been much worse. To condemn City Council to that Health Department and KWY News people putting those things on the air and bringing it to the public's attention I don't think -- my hat is off to KWY and folks like that. I don't go around checking stables. I have a lot of other things to do. I think we what need to do is look at the recommendations and maybe regroup and put together f people to start looking at some of these recommendations that are coming from you, your company and the other companies, and see -- I'm sure there is room for improvement. I'm sure there are things that may need to be adjusted. No one is I'm suggesting that we're not going to do that. What I am suggest is that rather than go through each one today that in the interest of time and in order to get a better understanding -- many of my colleagues, as you see, are not here. It's not because they don't care. The Mayor is having briefings today, one at 11:00 and one 5:00 for all City Councilmembers concerning the fiscal state of affairs and the budget. Obviously, I'm here 87 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 because I called for this hearing. I'll be at the 5:00. Some of them went to the 11:00 briefing. I don't want you to think that they were not concerned enough about this to stick out the entire hearing. Some of them will return, I'm sure, before this hearing concludes. So I just want to get that on the record. Again, we were here in 2001 because of the media -- and I'm not always a favorite fan of the media nor are they a favorite fan of mine. But were it not for the media, most of those things that occurred in 2001 would still be going on today and there would have been no regulations or no change in the regulations. And the Health Department is doing the best job that they can do based on the limits of personnel. And I understand you say everybody has a badge is someone who all of a sudden is an expert.
Well, there are some changes we're proposing today. We're going hire a large animal veterinarian. The Department of Health is bringing someone on to start pointing 88 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 fingers as to where all the problems are. I think you have to start with the industry first. If we didn't those problems in 2001, and I'm not saying it's your company, but we did have serious problems in 2001, we wouldn't need all these people here today. So I would like to proceed. If you could summarize your statement, I would appreciate that and then we can go on with the other witnesses.
Sure. Actually, the bulk of the remaining of my testimony, what it summarizes is that the industry needs to better educate itself and to stress the welfare of the animals and that an often overburdened PACCA just is unable to come through and enforce and handle most of these regulations, some of which is that in later testimony of mine, you know, we offer to help to educate them provide them with a necessary materials. And all the information that we use which is based upon national industry standards because we do avail ourselves of that. And it is my hope that through a 89 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 cooperative effort of improved regulations, enhanced education and practical enforcement, the carriage horses and all horses living within the City of Philadelphia will benefit from these efforts. We certainly do not have any problem with the news reports or the regulations that ensued after the last incidents with the horses. You may remember that actually I took care of one of those horses when no one else was able to. So it's not that we don't regulations, we just would hope that they would be meaningful in how they address the situation.
I understand. And my comments were not directed at you personally or your company, I'm just speaking to the industry as a whole. And again, the media did play a crucial role in at least getting us to some point in 2001. And we obviously are here today because some of those things we thought would be more beneficial both to the industry and the care of horses has not worked out the 90 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 way we expected it to. So we're back again, and we're going to try to work this through over the next few months, work with the Health Department and other folks, again, to see if we can come up with a better solution so we don't have to have KWY and some of other people out there reporting on inhumane conditions in stables and the care of horses. Thank you. Since there is no one else on my panel, I will not have any further questions for you two witnesses. Thank you for your time. The next witness is Hollis Provins from the National Park Service -- I'm sorry, Mr. Provins, Bill Hawkins is next and then you. Mr. Hawkins, the Animal Advisory Committee; Valerie Philips, Animal Advisory Committee; and Pennelle Hopkins, Pennsylvania SPCA. Good morning. My name is Mary Aull, A-U-L-L, and I'm here as a member of the Animal Advisory Committee instead of Ms. 91 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Philips. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify before you. I personally have been a member of the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee for either or 6 years. And in that time we spent a good 12 7 years talking about animal carriage 8 regulations. And it wasn't until three years 9 ago when you got involved, Councilman, that 10 things made progress with the help of Mr. 11 Hawkins and other folks, and we really 12 appreciate that. 13 I just want you to know that I am 14 also President of the Board of Pennsylvania 15 SPCA, Secretary of the Board of Pals for Live, 16 District 2 Legislative Representative for the Humane Society of the United States, and former Director of the Morris Animal Refuge. I say all that for identification purposes only. I have been on the SPCA Board for the past five years and was unsure when we made the decision to turn animal control back to the City of Philadelphia. I wasn't sure the City could handle it. I was pleasantly 92 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 surprised when the Philadelphia Animal Care organization opened and was up and running so well. However, once PACCA opened, I do feel that in some ways the City dropped the ball. And, yes, I do know that money is tight. However, I think that there has not been enough money allocated for animal control in this City; there never has been. But when the Pennsylvania SPCA did animal control, we had the other resources of 137-year-old organization from which to draw so that if there wasn't enough money and there was a situation like a bad carriage stable or something, we could our other agents to go out. PACCA doesn't have other resources. And I'd be happy to come back to a budget hearing and say that over again. I did research for the Animal Advisory Committee along with some other people a number of years ago and found out that Philadelphia gives animal control less money than any comparable City in the United States. As we've all said, recently was reported on the news some carriage horse 93 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 stables in Philadelphia went seriously downhill. And I think that the lack of animal control time and money is at least partially responsible for this. I know that the Health Department and PACCA are doing all they can to rectify this, and I think that's great. Carriage horse problems can very quickly become human health and safety problems. Therefore, I feel it is imperative to ask for more funding for animal control. I think in terms of these regulations they're excellent. They can always use some fine tuning. No, the penalties are no where near the stiff enough. Twenty-five dollars is a cost of doing business to a table owner.
We are so lucky to live in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania where actual animal fighting is a felony. That isn't true in a lot of other states. But all of our other animal cruelty finds are such a slap on the wrist that even the individuals involved say, "Oh, well, whatever. " And that's not fair, it's not fair to the citizens of this great 94 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 City or the Commonwealth. I thank you for your time. I don't know if Bill or Pennelle wants to go next, unless you have questions for me specifically.
My background is I'm Vice President of the Board of Pennsylvania SPCA, advisor to the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, and not least of all, a representative of one of the two communities in which the horse carriage trade is conducted. We would like to ask your support for improvements to the current regulations governing commercial horse stables and rental and carriage horses in the City of Philadelphia. The fact that we are here just two years following the implementation of regulations passed only a few years prior to that emphasizes the continuing problems and issue surrounding this particular business. While some horses are well care for and some stables are in reasonably good condition, the sad fact is that others are not. Tourist 95 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 don't question whether a horse is in good condition, if the carriage well maintained or if the driver is even competent. That's the responsibility of the carriage company, the stable owners, and the City of Philadelphia. In a number of instances, we have failed. We have failed to ensure proper care of the horses and we have failed to enforce proper mandated business practices. That's not only put the horses at risk, but also tourists and others. Revisions to the current regulations were implemented two years ago following three years of data collection and countless meetings and discussions. They addressed compliance issues associated with business management, traffic flow, humane treatment of horses, and public and tourist safety. They were completed after considerable time spent by City agencies, representatives of the community and humane organizations, representatives and attorneys from the horse carriage companies, as well as the primary carriage horse expert in the United States. 96 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 The regulations were produced under the excellent leadership of the Health Department. The regulations were reached after many compromises, as you mentioned. All parties in the process gave up certain demands. Prior to these regulations, Philadelphia humane regs were among the weakest in the nation, and the stables regs were very rudimentary. Serious abuses existed at a number of the carriage companies. In fact, one stable owner was convicted of cruelty and is no longer in business. And other stables were in such deplorable condition that they were closed until substantial improvements could be made. A third company had to make a number of changes, including adding a turnout areas for the horses; something that you would thing is very basic, yet existed at only one of the carriage company stables. In the end, the result was a set of rules that was supposed to bring us into the 21st Century. Sadly, that has not happen. Today there are two primary carriage companies 97 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 and one smaller one. Both the Philadelphia Police Department and Health Department have held meetings in the last couple of years with carriage company owners to an address some of the problems. I attended a number of those meetings. Unfortunately, despite frequent warnings and citations, one particular company has violated regulations on a consistent basis and yet continues to remain in business. And other riding stables within the City of Philadelphia also continue to abuse their horses. We've learned that from the Ferral stables which apparently were supposed to have been monitored, but apparently were not. Carriages go off routes. Drivers pick up passengers illegally. Horses are made to move at a fast trot so that the driver can get back to the staging area, often passing other carriages and thereby blocking two traffic lanes. Some horses are in harness far too long and way past the nine-hour regulation. Some drivers deliberately stay out way past the evening and night curfews and 98 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 sometimes never go in.
When challenged, they either claim ignorance of the regs or state that their management said it was okay to do so. I know of many instances when drivers from one company actually told enforcement officials that Councilman DiCicco had approved exceptions to the regulations for them, which of course is an absolute lie. The point system which was referred to earlier has not been enforced. If it is one or two companies would not be in business today. And frankly, the poor care of horses is either very visible and obvious or it is not. We've heard people try and explain away why a horse looks a certain way. Either a horse is, as Mike Slocum said, it's either healthy or not. Today, we not only ask for your support for the latest updates of the regulations, but also with the critical need for stricter enforcement and the closing of organizations that do not comply. The additional changes we ask to be included are 99 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 veterinary exams to be not less than twice a year. This should help to prevent future problems. Enforcement must also include checking reports at all stables in the City. Inspections of stables must be more than twice a year and be unannounced, not communicated in advance. We recommend that the Animal Advisory Committee have access to data detailing the status of stables and veterinary inspections as well as reports of violations and citations issued. The Committee would like to work more closely with the City agencies in the monitoring process. This is a practical request and can only help the City agencies with their efforts. Also, should not worked when the temperature over 90 degrees. Most cities high limits are 88 to 90, with only Philadelphia and one or two others over 90 degrees. Even the veterinarian for the largest carriage company during our meetings a few years ago 100 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 who was also the vet for the mounted police unit supported a threshold lower than the current 91. Our high humidity in the summer also is a problem for the heavier muscled horses. Plus, there is now no shade for the horses in the staging area on Fifth Street between Chestnut and Market. At the height of the summer it will be unbearable. This will be a major impact on horses and drivers. The carriage horse waste management plan must be submitted within 45 days, not 120 days. It's already been three years since the regs were passed and two years since they were finally introduced. Yet no plan has ever been presented to the City for review. More time means more delays, and the community is tired of waiting. For many years, we have had to endure the stench of horse urine and feces in the summer which we as taxpayers continue to pay to clean up, apparently. If that has changed, then I'd like to be told. m. throughout the weekdays and place a time limit on when the last fair can be picked up. 101 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 I see carriages out at o'clock. I live at Fifth and Sixth and Spruce, so I see the carriage go up and down the streets all the time. The Second and South Street staging area should be eliminated. It is an ill-advised location for horses and carriages too close to potential alcohol-related and traffic problems on South Street. We must also begin to place a cap on the number of carriages in the City. A recent headline story in the Philadelphia Business Journal highlights just how serious the staging situation is due to the recent explosion of tourist transportation operations. The 45 to 50 carriages now compete with a variety of other vehicles. Traffic problems in the Society Hill and Old City communities have steadily grown worse since the arrival of the ducks and the big bus transportation options. To many residents, it's beginning to look like Disney World out there. That's why strict curfews, tighter enforcement, elimination of those companies 102 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 that will not abide by the regulations and a sensible, practical cap on carriages and other tourist company vehicles is important. It's about quality of life. We must do a much better job of balancing community needs with business needs. Too often the community gets the short end of the stick. On March 2, 2001, the City, in response to questions regarding the carriage regulations from a City Transportation Department expert stated that the City does have the right to impose a limit on the number of carriages allowed to operate in a particular district without infringing on individual Constitutional rights and that there is no legal impediment to do so. I have a copy of those communications. Without strict enforcement, rules and regulations and why we are here today become meaningless. During the first few months following the approval of the current regulations by City Council and the Mayor, enforcement was reasonably good. However, for some time it has been inconsistent and in some 103 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 instances nonexistent, although the City's beginning to monitor more closely again. If the City does not fully enforce, then the result is constant violations, including problems similar to those that we've discussed today and covered in the media. In one case, I had asked the City on a couple of occasions weeks about the media story broke to check allegations of poor health of some of the horses at the particular carriage company but sadly received no 13 response. With proper enforcement and follow-up, the problem could have been resolved and negative media coverage to the City avoided. There's also the issue with the stables that were located at 31st and Master Streets in North Philadelphia. Not only were those stables condemned but also the horses were removed, housed, fed, treated, apparently at taxpayers' expense for 60 days. Plus, the City is paying one half of the rent for the first three months at the licensed stable that the horse owner may select once those 60 days 104 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 expires. That's what I heard from the media. I don't know if that is accurate. If that is, then we have a problem. The purpose for mentioning these two examples is that we need a consistent, objective approach to enforcement. Why the special treatment? Plus, they may be the tip of the iceberg of horse abuse in Philadelphia. " Well, how many other "we didn't know about thats" are out there? The owners of those stables should pay fines for their violations and reimburse the City for all expenses incurred. These costs must not be borne by taxpayers. It's outrageous. Something is very, very wrong here. This also applies to the horse carriage waste management program that has languished for two years. It is mandated in the already existing regulations but has never, never been enforced. Why not? Meanwhile, each of us in this room is 105 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 subsidizing the City on behalf of the horse carriage companies for streets cleanup services. The last I heard it was in the vicinity of $30,000 a year. We need clear tough and humane regulations. Most of all, we need strict and consistent enforcement by the City. As background, I have with me a few examples of the many communications regarding countless violations and allied issues associated with carriage companies within just the recent three-year period. I also have a large amount of data from 1995 onward. And these data, although accurate, are only my and those of a few others random observations. Just think if we had a formal database of such violations. The shear volume would be huge. Philadelphia took an important step when the updated regs were introduced. Since them, representatives from cities and organizations throughout the country and even outside of the US have been in touch with me to find out more about what we do and the improvements we have made. We have begun to 106 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 develop a good reputation in this area. We must not go back to the bad old days. It is the hope of al those who support sound business practices, sincere humane treatment of horses, quality of life, and a clean community that you will help ensure that the regulations in the City of Philadelphia are strengthened and strictly enforced. Thank you very much for your time today, Councilman.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Before the next witness testifies, refresh my memory; it's been a while. Who was responsible for submitting the waste management plan? Was that the industry?
It was the industry. And the last I heard, it was not factored into any of the costs of doing business. If that has happened subsequently, I certainly haven't been informed and I've been trying to stay on top of this for the last couple of years.
I know you have. Thank you. 107 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Yes, ma'am, do you wish to testify?
My name is Pennelle Hopkins. I'm a humane police officer for Pennsylvania SPCA, and I specialize in equine investigations. Most of the things that I had at issue have been covered, so I'm not going to take time on that. I just want to reinforce a couple things. Inspection is useless if there's going to be a warning given.
Turnout is essential, and I've seen very little facilities for turnout when I've been to any of the stables.
Turnout for exercise for the horses, as mandated in the Health Department's regulations. There's been no mention about cooling the horses when they are in the street and hot weather, whether it's 90 degrees or not, the heavier draft horses are extremely susceptible to heat prostration. And I work in Lancaster County. I see deaths in the 108 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 spring constantly, so I would say that maybe some water spray, something carried would be a necessity to keep these horses from overheating. We heard testimony about horses dumping their heads into freezing cold water get a drink, which they're pretty desperate for water to have to do that. It's very simple to get water heaters and much healthier for the horses. Horses do not like to drink freezing water and won't drink enough and they are much more at risk for health issues, including colic which is often times deadly. I believe that covers the high points of what I wanted to say. You can legalize attitude and, therefore, you have to rely upon enforcement, enforcement, enforcement.
I agree. Ms. Hopkins, in your role with the SPCA, if you had to grade Philadelphia's horse carriage industry being poor, being excellent, where would you grade it in terms of the overall, the condition of stables, 109 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 treatment of horses, et cetera?
I'm not asking about an individual company, just generally.
The stables that I have been to have abysmal. I would grade them maybe a 1 or 2. The horses, I would say on the average, have been below average with some very poor exceptions.
The condition of the horses and the housing of the horses. The carriage industry, I have not delved deeply into that in a consistent basis. I received a complaint only Saturday from one of the people that was here, a nationally known horse person teaching the disaster rescue and planning for horses as well as bioterrorist and some other issues at-large concerning an underweight carriage horse and one with very overgrown hoofs.
Are you 110 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 familiar with any other municipalities where there's a horse carriage industry?
Well, their housing is better in Lancaster generally because it's not in a city situation. They are monitored pretty closely in Lancaster County. You're really putting me on the spot here.
Are they being monitored more regularly than we do in Philadelphia, generally speaking.
You're familiar with the fines and the cost of doing business for the industry here?
Do you know what they may be in Lancaster County 111 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 comparing, again, to Philadelphia?
The carriage industry is regulated only by the cruelty law, Pennsylvania State Cruelty Law. In Lancaster County, a minimum fine is $50. Most district justices will impose more than that.
Thank you. I want to thank the three of you for the time that you spend trying to help this industry and especially for the care of the horses. I know Bill and I go back and forth often on e-mails. There's no compensation for some of you for what you do. I appreciate the volunteerism and your concern. I think what we're going to have to do, as I said earlier, probably go to the drawing table again and just try to figure this out in hopes that we come up with a better product than we had from 2001.
I want to thank you very much. I would hate to have to think that we're go to go reinvent what we went through before because literally it was countless hours by a lot of people, a lot of experts. 112 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Regardless of what you hear to the contrary, it was a lot of expert testimony provided that came in from other cities as well and we had experts from outside the cities, including the lead equine expert for the horse carriage industry here. In fact, she helped to develop some of the stables regulations. I do agree that where there are regulations that are unnecessary, that even maybe part of what we currently have that we should re-look at those. But conversely, we also need to look at what we need to do to make them more strict, perhaps, in the areas of fines and in certain other humane areas that Mike Slocum mentioned earlier.
I'm not suggesting that we throw out everything we've done and start from scratch, by no means. Some of these things I think that you brought up and others have brought up are already addressed in the Health Department's recommendations. To conduct a minimum of quarterly inspections and more frequently would address concern that they need to be 113 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 frequently. I think there was someone that suggested that examinations be provided at least two times a year. You had suggested that. So those things we're already going to go agree to anyway, but there are some other areas I think that -- in terms of the fines and the other issues that we feel are important enough, again, notwithstanding that we did make some accomplishments in 2001. We're not going to invent the wheel.
If I could add just one point. The point I made earlier about the Animal Advisory Committee playing more active role with the City agencies, I think we played a certain role up till now, but I don't know that we've been as active as we probably should be and need to be and I think we can do a great service to the City by working closely with the Health Department. If we can help with some of those reporting and act as almost an intermediary, I think that's going to help the City. And we're volunteers; we don't get paid for what we do so we're going to be very objective on each of the issues that we 114 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 handle.
And I think that's probably the way we need to go. When you meet, when the Advisory Committee meets, is it normally among yourselves, I mean, there's no one from the industry that's there generally? What happens at those meetings?
We spent a lot of time meeting before your committee got involved with members from the industry, and primarily only from --
Before you got involved in 2001. Primarily, the carriage company 76 was represented. They were really good about coming to the meetings. And there were people on our Committee who are extreme animal rights people who don't believe that animals should be used in entertainment. So we had lots of differing points of view, to say the least. We can have anybody we want at our meetings. We always have people from the Health Department, from L&I, and from the Law 115 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Department there. They're assigned to our Committee. But we would be happy to have people from the industry come because if they have concerns that we may not be aware of, we'd like to include those.
And I think that's probably one of the reasons why we're here today is that there's not a complete group of people who are discussing this issue at the same time. And I don't know how I could -- I know Mr. Slocum was very helpful back in 2001. But I that's a continue that we need to look to go forward is to make certain -- and I don't know how we can do that legislatively, but maybe we make that part of the regulations that require a representative from each of the existing companies to attend these meetings, so that those issues are out there early on and maybe we can attack them before they become greater than they are, greater issues going forward.
If we do that, then I would suggest a subcommittee then because this is such a hot item that a subcommittee because 116 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 the Animal Advisory Committee covers all animal issues in the City.
I have no 5 problem with that, but I think that's the way we should go. That may become a requirement that a representative from each company attend those meetings. How often do you meet, quarterly?
But reasonably quarterly or something like that I think is reasonable unless there's a hot issue that you have to talk about. You can always call a special meeting. I think that line of communication is helpful. People get to know each other. See, I don't like this adversarial kind of thing. I think we've been down that road for too long, you know, our side versus the other side. How do we bring the two sides together to talk about it? And as I said earlier, at the end of the day, there's always going to be somebody who walks away from the 117 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 table not entirely happy with the results, but at least there's a line of communication that will allow for people to express their concerns and address them as best as possible. So again, I want to thank you for your time you spent on this. Thank you. The next witness is Lou Peluso. And I want to remind everyone, it is now 12:15. There is a budget hearing that will resume sometime around 1 o'clock. So while I appreciate your testimony that all of you want to give, I would ask you to be as concise as possible, make your points. And if need be, we'll just continue this hearing for another date.
Thank you for having me today. I hope we don't leave as adversaries like we did the last time. My name is Lou Peluso, P-E-L-U-S-O. My concern for the City's carriage horses spans 20 years. Having testified in 1986 118 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 before former Councilman Ed Schwartz, in 1994 before Councilwoman Marian Tasco, and having testified in 2001 before your first hearing on these carriage horses, Councilman DiCicco, it is great frustration and anger that I sit before today knowing that nothing has changed for these horse concerning the Philadelphia Carriage Company, and most likely nothing has changed for any of the overworked, neglected, misplaced and out-of-sight horses throughout the City. Why is it that the taxes used to fund the City agencies responsible for inspecting and enforcing the meager regulations concerning this cruel trade, never find the problems? Why is it that employees of this cruel trade are the ones that bring the City's attention to the neglect and abuse? Who is not doing their job on the tax payroll? And why aren't they exposing the neglect and abuse? Why are characters, the likes of Ellis Ferrel able to operate an illegal stable 119 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in a condemned building in Strawberry Mansion with horses suffering from open wounds, aye infections and overall inhumane conditions? How many more of these illegal and cruel operations are there in the City? And where are City agencies, CLIP PACCA, the police, the SPCA and Health Department? I can understand hiding one horse from such agencies, but an entire stable full in a condemned building, that speaks volumes that this City's lack of compassion and understanding and exposes Mr. Ellis Farrel as a callously greed-driven person to place working horses in such inhumane and dangerous conditions. How many more horses are suffering at this moment because someone isn't doing their job? Or is this a continuation of what was going on when the Animal Advisory Board back in the 1980s would replace the head of the Board every few months, never allowing the Board to progress with any of the recommendations found to better the lives of these horses. 120 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Since the death of Bishop, a horse that was literally worked to death, Philadelphians were led to believe changes were taking place and that these horses were being treated humanely. We find that nothing has changed with regard to the Philadelphia Carriage Company. Now, rather than working their sick horses as they did Bishop, the Philadelphia Carriage Company tortures them in stalls with empty water pails, manure-filled stables and stables with leaking roofs, all code violations of Section 2B, Subsections and of the regulations on commercial horse stables and rental carriage horses. Philadelphia still has the highest cutoff temperature of any large City for these horses to work in in summer heat. Philadelphia still doesn't have a heat index factored in as New York City, Chicago and New Orleans. All other major cities have the 90 degrees as a cutoff and lower temperatures of the heat index makes it feel above 90 degrees. Why is the City Council so reluctant to drop the temperature limit one more degree? 121 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Why is City Council so reluctant to add a heat index to the equation? Stop putting your personal agendas before the welfare of these four-legged ambassadors. When Philadelphians want to call during the summer months to make sure these horses are taken off the street in high temperatures, they are unaware of what agency to call. And if it's a weekend, it's literally impossible to contact the enforcing agency. This needs to change. It's too bad those empowered to do something to better the working and living conditions for these horses don't seem to care. If they did care, then as I stated in 2001, we wouldn't be here today.
If this City Administration is serious about changes things for the City's horses, then I suggest you put the right people in these inspection enforcement positions, not those who view these horses as just animals or just a paycheck. The only time these horses get the City's attention is when they give City Council a black eye. These horses need to be checked regularly, not once a year as has been 122 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 the policy. To say four or five times a year is meaningless. These horses need to be thoroughly checked on an unannounced, monthly schedule. How many more abuses need to occur before real action is taken on behalf of the welfare of these horses? Why should Philadelphians who care about these horses believe anything is going to change when we live in a City that could not find the funding to upgrade heating system of the zoo's primate house until a fire killed all of the primates? Why should Philadelphians believe this Administration is going change things for these horses when we've seen you allow bullets to be fired in our parks to manage deer when non-lethal methods were available? Why should Philadelphia believe this Administration is going to change anything for these horses when you would not find the funds to help a beleaguered Pennsylvania SPCA but found tens of millions of dollars to construct and operate the largest dog and cat slaughter 123 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 house tri-state area that goes under the dubious name of Philadelphia Animal Care and Control Agency? Why should Philadelphians believe this administration when you allowed all the squirrels of Rittenhouse and Washington Square as in the Parkway poisoned in your quest to kill rats when other safer methods were available? What do these actions send our children? That it's okay to kill your problem if it's quick and cheap? If you are truly serious about changing things for these horses, you would put the Philadelphia Carriage Company out of business. That would send a clear message to the rest of the carriage horse owners to straighten up their act or they too will have to go out and find real jobs. It's time to do the right thing and place the welfare of these horses above politics and self-interest. It's time you do your jobs as elected representatives of the people and not representatives of institutionalized cruelty. 124 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 On behalf of my friends, the carriage horses, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak for them, Councilman. And time will tell if you have the courage to do what is right for these horses. I hope you do, Councilman.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Peluso. Mr. Nick Cooney, a representative of PETA.
Councilman, I'd just like to clarify. I'm not a representative PETA. I have no affiliation with PETA. I'm a member of an animal rights organization in Philadelphia called Hugs For Puppies. We have approximately 100 members.
That's okay. Good afternoon. My name is Nick Cooney. I'm here to testify on behalf of our organization about the situation with Philadelphia Carriage Company and about the presence of carriage horses in Philadelphia in 125 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 general. As you've heard already, an investigation into the stables of the Philadelphia Carriage Company we've got a list of unhealthy and inhumane conditions, absent or frozen water, inadequate bedding, open sores on animals, excrement covering animals, and cramped conditions. I've been told that action has been taken to correct these problems, and I commend you, Councilman, on your work to address this problem. While conditions have hopefully approved for the horses, it's not because of any concern or responsibility on the part of the Philadelphia Carriage Horse Company. The changes came only after a televised investigation and government action. The Philadelphia Carriage Company has certainly shown that it has no interest in caring for the animals off of whose backs they make their profit. In our organization's opinion, the Philadelphia Carriage Company has forfeited its right to maintain a fleet of carriage 126 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 horses. Its permit to operate on the streets of Philadelphia should be taken away and its horses should be taken away as well. Unfortunately, the deplorable stable conditions for the horses are only part of the cruel treatment that these animals are forced to endure everyday. Carriage horses are exposed to bitter cold and to scorching heat. As you well know, summers in Philadelphia are pretty brutal with temperatures reaching up into the 90s on a regular basis. In a study by Cornell University showed that the actual asphalt temperature of the City streets can be up to 50 degrees greater than the recorded Weather Bureau temperature. So horses are forced to pull heavy loads in this heat all day long and often without adequate water. This past Sunday, I was walking down Fifth Street and there were about 20 carriage horses lined up on that road. And out of all of these 20 horses, only 2 had buckets of water sitting there for them to drink. This was the middle of the afternoon at about 2 o'clock. The temperature was about 85 degrees 127 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in the air and who knows how much hotter on the street. Besides the temperature, the horses are constantly exposed to smoke and to exhaust fumes. A study of carriage horses by veterinarian Jeffrey Rasal (ph) found out, and I'm quoting, "Tracheal washes and samples from the respiratory sections of these horses showed enormous lung damage, the same kind of damage you would expect from a heavy smoker. Carriages live a nose-to-tailpipe existence and it's certainly not a pleasant one. It should also be noted that most carriage horses are breakdowns from racing tracks or farming communities and enter the carriage horse industry with a history injuries and disabilities that only get worse. And when horses cannot pull heavy carriages, they are often sold to rendering plants or dog food companies. That's not the kind of retirement plan I would want, but it's what these horses have to look forward to after their years of work is over. A growing number of cities such as 128 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Palm Beach, Florida; Santa Fe, New Mexico; Las Vegas, Nevada; London, Paris, and Toronto have listened to the concerns of residents and banned carriage horses from their streets. It's time that Philadelphia to prevent the ongoing and future suffering of these creatures. Philadelphia's two or three carriage horse companies may claim they're bringing tourist revenue to the City, but the reality is that there are a few, if any, tourists who would stop coming to Philadelphia simply because carriage horses were no longer on the streets. Our City has a huge number of attractions and money not spent on a cruel carriage ride would simply be money spent elsewhere.
Thank you for your time and your concern on this issue. Please take it seriously, as it is very serious issue not only to the horses in question, but to many residents of the City as well. And just by way of closing, I'd like to make two final remarks. The first is that in your opening statements, Councilman, you 129 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 expressed two different desires. One is the desires that horses get the best treatment possible and that they be treated humanely. The other desire expressed is that the carriage horse industry continue to operate in Philadelphia. Unfortunately, these two desires are not reconcilable based on the very fundamental nature of the carriage horse industry. The second final remark I'd like to make is that I'm a little bit taken aback by the fact that some of the carriage horse company representatives have come up here today during a hearing that was called because of the ill treatment of horses and instead of addressing that problem, they've used this microphone as a platform to rale on how they need to be work their horses harder to have longer hours, to be able to treat them more cruelly. I think that pretty much shows myself, shows yourself, shows anyone in this audience that they are not concerned with the treatment of the horses, that they're concerned only with the profit that they're 130 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 making off of those horses. Thank you.
I appreciate your testimony, and I agree on many of your comments. Thank you. C'Anne Anderson, Callowhill Neighbors Association. She just stepped out? All right. Fred Ottazanio. Is Fred Ottazanio here? Valerie Trevigno. Annette Schwartz. Brian Cane. When C'Anne comes in, just point her out to me and I'll let her come up to the witness table. Good afternoon, Mr. Cane. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Brian Cane. I'm the general manager of the Philadelphia Carriage Company.
You need speak a little bit louder into the microphone.
My name is Brian Cane. I'm the general manager for the Philadelphia 131 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 Carriage Company. Thank you for your time and thank you for this opportunity to speak before you. I've heard a lot of good and a lot of bad being said today about the carriage industry. I don't think we would be here without the media attention, without people being genuinely concerned about what happens within the carriage industry, and I am glad personally that people do keep an aye out for the horses because I look out for them as well. I'm very serious about training our drivers and staying on the backs of the drivers about the proper treatment, the proper care of our horses. It seems to me that this did come about, this hearing came about from surreptitious means, through bribery. And I'm not afraid to say that. It is irresponsible reporting. Middle-of-the-night type of operation that came into the stable when our stable is open for inspection. So there was no reason why those cameras could not come in during the daytime. 132 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
Would the conditions be different in the afternoon than they were at night?
I would have to be tell you they would be in certain cases, yes, sir.
I'm talking about the specific report that KWY did in the night, regardless of how they got there, are you suggesting that the condition of the stable or stables and the condition of the horse or horses that was reported would have been any different had they come in the afternoon? That horse got into that condition in less than 12 hours and the stable came to the condition that it was reported in less six, seven hours?
What I am trying to tell you, sir, that there is a process each day that is followed each day for the proper care of the stalls. If you come during the day after they're cleaned and into the afternoon, you're not going to find as much feces and manure as you would in the middle of the night. No carriage company, no stable comes 133 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in with their people in the middle of the night shoveling the manure out. Any horse is going to appear to have feces on him, sir.
What's the latest time of the day that the stables are cleaned, generally?
I know that the reporters came in around 10 in the evening, sir.
That's correct. That six to seven matters in the appearance of a horse yes, sir, it does.
To the degree that that horse looked? In seven hours --
They can look that much dirtier. That's why it really upset me that anybody would do an diagnosis over a videotape rather than getting on site to actually inspect the horses. 134 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
And the lack of bedding all occurred within seven hours? The frozen water, the condition of the water, the bucket?
It sounds like you are. It sounds to me as though you're criticizing the reporting and suggesting that there was nothing wrong at the stable.
What I'm saying is that things are being misrepresented and put in a bad light. Now, if they were being taken in their proper context, then it would have been a different story. But that doesn't appear to be the way things are wanting to go. Now, I don't want to be on an adversarial position with you or the City Council or any of the other people. In fact, I am actually recommending that a 135 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 representative from each of the carriage companies be included on the Mayor's Animal Action Committee, not as just there to be innocent bystanders, but actually to be there when there are decisions made about our industry. We do have too many people that are being given the authority to tell us what to do when they do not have experience in horses at all. I thought it was quite ridiculous that Councilman Ramos would say anything about Smarty Jones and a carriage horse.
I don't think that was ridiculous. I think he was trying to --
They're two different breeds, they have nothing to do with each other.
Sir, I'm running this hearing. I think what he was pointing out is, A, he was trying to educate himself as to the types of food that horses eat, wondering if these horses are getting the same type of nourishment. He said, quite 136 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 frankly, "I don't anything about horses." He was asking a question. Now, some people may find some humor in the fact that he used Smarty Jones as an example, but he is a horse and he was questioning whether or not there are certain regulations or certain types of feed that these horses are required to be fed. I think that's the intent of question. I, quite frankly, think it was a proper question.
I think the contrary. Our business is being oppressed right now, sir. This is not time for levity. He should have educated himself before as anybody else that wants to deal with this situation should educate themselves about horses and maybe --
We think members of this City Council have nothing else to do but read up on horses and the condition of horses? Do you think that's all we have to do?
No, sir, but when you want to regulate them, you should educate yourself.
Don't you think 137 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 there's a responsibility of the part of the industry to make sure that these horses are properly cared for?
And you're going to come in here and suggest that the condition of the horse that was reported on KWY, all that occurred with a period of seven hours?
I'm talking about the manure, sir, not the condition of the sore. The sore was explained.
What happened to the horse after the report was put on KWY? What happened to the horse after that?
The horse was under the 138 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 veterinarian's care, sire, and that's on paper.
After the news report by KWY, what, if anything, occurred with the horse? Was there additional medication, doctoring, if you will, for the horse?
I repeat, sir, he was under a veterinarian's care. What needed to be done was being done by the vet and directed by the vet to our stable people.
And you're going to tell me the condition of the stable was adequate?
No, you said to me earlier, had they come earlier in the day, the condition would have been different. I'm asking you at the time --
That is correct. It's, again, what they're taking about, about the appearances of the horses. To an educated eye -- an educated eye would know the good 139 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 condition of a horse. A person just walking down the street would not know the good condition of a horse. They just know what they suspect that they would see. A horse covered with manure may appear to be not being taken care of, when in fact a horse will lay his head on a warm pile of manure to rest on, sir. If you stick around a stable once an in a while like I have, you would see this happen, and it's not irregular.
I could see the headlines now, "Councilman's out riding a horse while City of Philadelphia is going up in flames."
I don't think it's ridiculous. I think that there's a serious issue here.
Then it's not ridiculous. We agree it's not ridiculous. I don't think you mean to use the word 140 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 "ridiculous."
What I think is ridiculous, sir, is that people are being put in charge of this industry who do not have the education to make valid regulations for the industry.
We're going to see about that. Maybe we're going to get people who are experts, and then there will be no excuses.
I would volunteer to be on the Mayor's Animal Action Committee or their subcommittee and work with them to better conditions for our City.
We'll take that under consideration thank. You for your testimony.
Did you get my e-mail? Did you get my response yesterday?
My response was, I understand your concern, appreciate your 141 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 comments, look forward to seeing at the hearing tomorrow, which is today, and that we were hopefully get to the heart of whether these allegations are true or false or whatever.
I hope so too. My name is C'Anne Anderson, I'm from the Callowhill Neighborhood Association and I live next door to Philadelphia Carriage Company. I am concerned that an awful light of scrutiny is being paid to an operation that I think runs rather well. I do not claim to be an expert on horses. I grew up with them. I've been around stables. I know that you can come at one time and the stables look less clean than they do at another. You can't muck a stable hours a day. I don't think that 20 that news cast was fair and that it got in at 21 the right time. I have to say I never even 22 saw the news cast. But it does feel like 23 there's been a lot of scrutiny paid to an 24 operation and a lot of accusations made, and I don't see any evidence that the horses are 142 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 mistreated. I see the stables mucked daily. I am there a lot, and I see the horses walked up and down the street to cool them and I see then taking rather nice care of and they are talked to and they are loved. This doesn't feel right to me. And on a larger scale, what worries me with all the regulations that we're talking about is that we will drive another really wonderful piece of Philadelphia out. We no longer have the street cars. The last of that operation was a volunteer operation down on the riverfront. And we regulated and urban removed them completely. The street cars were wonderful. We sold most of our collection, a lot of it to San Francisco. Why did we do that? I don't want to see the same thing happen to the horse carriages.
Understand that we -- when you say "we" I think you're speaking of the City of Philadelphia. We didn't do that. That's SEPTA. And I fully agree that I would rather see the trolleys 143 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 back in service, and I've been fighting a long time get that back in service. But that's not why we're here. I just want to clear the record that we are not selling those things, that's SEPTA.
We are not SEPTA, but the City has a lot of say on things like that.
Unfortunately, we have very little say. It's run by -- the suburban counties have the majority of the votes on the SEPTA Board. Actually, I have a son who sits on the SEPTA Board, so I think he would like to make his father happy and put the trolleys back, but they are just not able to do that.
Without going too far down this path, what happened to the ones that were the volunteer organization down there? I mean, that was City regulations. We do have some power. But whether or not -- that case aside, that was one thing I saw disappear, and I don't want to see this disappear. And I'm afraid that over-regulation will do that. And I think that most important 144 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 point made here today was that there's a lot of non-expertise floating around and that what a horse looks like to people who don't know and people who do is a completely different thing. And I'd hate to see a little bit of misinformation turned into something that basically over-regulates an industry out that I think is a good thing for Philadelphia.
That's certainly not my intention. I don't know if you were here earlier this morning when I made my opening remarks. I don't intend to do that. We'll all decide whether it's too much regulations or not enough. People will always have a difference of opinion. But as for the news reporting -- and it sounds like I'm on KWY's payroll right now -- we only got here because of that news coverage and we got here in 2001 because of the same problems. This is not singling out one individual. KWY went to that one particular stable. This is an industry. It's always been an industry issue for me.
I would hope that it 145 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 would be kept an industry issue.
So that you know, because I understand there were some suggestion out there in your neighborhood in particular that I may be doing this because I have a special place in my heart for Michael Slocum and his operation and there may be some political considerations that I'm trying to address. I can tell you, nothing can be further from the truth. Had it not been for that KWY News report and enormous amount of e-mails and calls that I received as a result of that, we probably wouldn't be here today. We did legislation in 2001. There's an advisory committee, there's the SPCA, there's the Health Department, there's a lot of agencies out there who helped to put that together. I, for the most part, thought that the majority of those issues were being addressed. But for that news coverage, I would still today think that those issues had been addressed adequately except from time to time there's always an issue that may pop up. 146 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 I'll get an e-mail from Bill Hawkins telling me that they were still out there after -- and I'm not putting Bill on the spot, but I get those periodic complaints or concerns. But this was something that was too obvious and too much in my face and everybody else's face to totally ignore. This is not about putting Philadelphia Carriage Works out of business or any of the three companies. It is about addressing those concerns. And there are a whole host of concerns that we have to look at.
But it does seem that today's hearings have been pointedly at Philadelphia Carriage Company, and I haven't heard a lot of support or a lot of testimony that proves that proves that in fact the horses were being abused. And I do not see that. As someone who sees that operation on a daily basis, I just don't see that happening.
I understand that. Because of these hearings, I would hope that we have stepped up enforcement and inspection so that we do not have to do this 147 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 in another six months or a year. Although I will ask, and I said this earlier, I will ask that the interested parties, including the industry, join with the Animal Advisory Committee to sit down on a regular basis, maybe quarterly, to talk about the issues as it relates to the industry so that maybe we can prevent some of these things from reoccurring. And there are some issues that are out there that the industry has asked for a relaxation or changes in the temperatures, the high, the low, in the hours of operation, and routes. Those are things that we have to sit down and collectively discuss and see if there is any room for negotiations or reconsiderations. I don't have the answer today. But I'm here. I'm going to recess this Committee to the call of the Chair so it doesn't end to keep everybody on notice that there is a problem out there. There are some issues out there that need to be addressed and we're going to work to address those problems.
I certainly would 148 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 like to say that I like the idea that more of the carriage people themselves would be involved. And I also heard a suggestion that people from outside who run stables outside the City maybe be called in as members of whatever advisory thing so that you really have horse people doing this.
That seemed the most to me, because I feel a lot of what's going on here didn't have to do with --
I can also say to you, going back again to 2000 and 2001, because of the media coverage as it relates to a prior owner of one of the carriage companies, that person was put out of business because it was proven beyond a doubt that that owner did not act responsible. Horses were not bing properly cared for, they were diseased horses. Many of them had to be taken away and put out to a farm somewhere out in Pennsylvania to recuperate. So there is some need for these kinds of oversights and reviews. And again, I 149 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 think that what we need to do is continue to do keep the pressure on, if you will, to the degree that we don't have the similar situation that occurred back in 2001. No one wants to see that. That's not the result that we're looking for. Is there anyone else here who did not testimony and wishes to testify? Please come forward. I would ask, again, in the interest of time, we do have a copy of your testimony --
We'll give it to stenographer and it will be made part of the public record.
My name is Keith Rodimer. I'm the manager of the Philadelphia Carriage Company. I guess the most important thing was what brought us here day, the KWY news report.
Well, someone agrees with me finally. 150 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
It's important to be noted just like a general operation of our stables AN most of carriage or any horse stables anywhere. In the morning around 7:00 a.m., the stable hands, maybe two or three or of them THAT work at our stable will start to remove some of the horses -- I'm sorry, that happens later. At 7:00 a.m., they'll get fresh water, they empty out all buckets. In each stall at our stable, there's two water buckets just to make sure that they have enough water through the night. Every horse will get lots of hay. And around 8:30, 9:00, the carriage drivers start to come in.
Let me get that straight. At 7:00 or so someone comes in and starts --
Fed and re-watered. Bedding and all that is taken of?
Not at that time because they're going to be leaving. 151 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
The cleaning of the stall happens when the horses that are going out of that day leave, because it's easier.
So the horses are still primarily in the stall between 7:00 a.m. from the time they leave?
Now, during that time between like 9:30 and 11:30, that's when the stalls get cleaned. Every horse gets taken out. They'll be taken out to the little like alleyway where our carriage groom their horse every day. Now, when the carriage drivers take them out, it's their job to clean and groom the house to make sure they're basically clean of all the debris, all the excrement so 152 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 they're basically nice on the street. Nobody wants to ride in a carriage with a dirty horse. Now, when they come in like approximately 3:30, 4:00, at that time they have fresh bedding, fresh water, and they have fresh hay. That's when they eat. They're at that period from like maybe 4:00 to 6:00 p.m.
No, when they come in from being on the street, they come in, they take the tack off the horse, they wash him down, the groom him and then put him back into the stall where they have fresh hay, fresh water and fresh bedding there.
So that's about the approximate time that Mr. Crane said that the last time that the stall is cleaned out.
Correct. Every 153 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 morning, each stall in the barn is cleaned. So you've got to understand, during that whole time, especially if the horse didn't work that day, he's had from approximately, I'd say, like noontime until when KYW came into our barn at o'clock to just basically sit 8 around and eat and poop, basically. 9 So when the horse at nighttime, a 10 lot of horses like to lay down. We have some horses that will poop in the corner and lay down on the side; they don't lay in their own excrement. Some horses, they don't care, they like to get dirty. Some horses stand up because they don't like to lay down. When the cameras came in that day at 10 o'clock, approximately, I don't care what stable you go to worldwide, you're going to find some horses laying in their own in excrement. When I saw the footage of KWY, I was sick; it made me sick. But because I know and like the people that work in our industry know that that's what horses do, we were even -- I myself was even more angry because of the way 154 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 that report showed the way we treat our horses. Now, in response to some of the things that was represented in that story, KWY said that some of the horse stalls had no 7 buckets of water. They failed to actually show any of those stalls; they didn't go into the stall with a camera and show the buckets without water. Four of our horses were out on turnout, they were in a farm. We don't give the horses water if they're not there, basically. As far as the dirty water, especially around that time, the horses have had time to eat, the hay sticks to their face, to their tongues, the sawdust gets, you know, matted to their lips, they put their head in the water, the water gets dirty. As far as the water being frozen, I understand like that was during a cold spell. We were told that we got to fix that problem. And during the night when that happens previously in and even up until that point, the stablehand that's over there overnight 155 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 will go around and make sure they poke a screw driver or something like that to make sure there's surface ice on the water. Another thing that KYW said, one of our horses had no bedding and that they were sleeping on concrete floor. Every stall in our barn is made of wood. It's in the Health Department regulation that the floor boards has to be made wood to allow for absorption and drainage of the horses excrement and things. Now, the type of sawdust that we use is very absorbant, so when the horse excretes its fluids it will, of course, shrink. And one of the things that we got written up for that day was there was inadequate bedding, not no bedding. It was inadequate and that's because it goes from 6 inches to about 3. The Health Department, when they do come to our stable, they're always unannounced; all the time. They come at different times during the day, always to make sure that there's somebody here. They never really come at night because they don't work 156 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 at night, they work during the day. " Another thing that was said that there was one horse that had difficulty breathing. And in one section of the KWY's report, you see the camera going up to one of our horses Captain Timmy, and the horse like blows out AND backs up. And especially the people who work in the carriage industry, they can see that the horse was frightened. It's 10:00 at night, he was just eating, he was probably sleeping and he wakes up to a bright light and a camera in his face and he backs up. Another horse has been working for us for over 15 years and never had any health problems. You have to understand that this carriage company, in years doing business, 22 has never had any fines whatsoever. Just 23 seeing the way this report was geared towards 24 us particularly was extremely upsetting. And, 25 like all of our drivers that can testify if 157 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES.
040105 you ask them, that when they work with a horse, that's their pet. If anything, if they see anything going wrong with the horse, the first thing that they'll do is go to the owner to make sure, like how come this horse isn't getting enough fed or whatever like that. Not that that happens, but I'm just saying that's how much they care for the horse. What I feel the most upsetting is the reason why we're here today was -- I don't want to say false pretense. Because the report of KWY did not tell the whole story. They did not show the four tons of hay above all the horses. They didn't show the horses being re-watered every day. They didn't show the horses being groomed every day. I sincerely wish that anybody that thinks that we are abusing the horses to come by any time.
No, you just can't send somebody. The testimony today is we need more professional people, and that's what we're going to do. We're going to figure out a way in getting more professional people 158 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 out there, not just somebody; not me, not anybody else, but somebody who knows about these issues. Not just your stable, by the way, it's to the other two stables as well.
It's because of the report and it's because we're here today because of the report. And if there's nothing going wrong at the stable and all these things that you're telling me are as great as they sound, then nobody has anything to worry about. I've said that before.
But the effect of that report and of these hearings here has detrimental effects on our business, on our drivers' well-being because they're going around driving downtown being called horse abusers when these are the animals that they love and they take care of.
Understand when we go back to 2000 again, had it not been for the news coverage that was basically a result of employees who worked for that particular 159 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 operator telling us about those conditions, those conditions might still be existing today. So sometimes it actually works out to everybody's advantage. And I think at the end of the day, not today but whenever the day comes when we have some of the other issues wrapped up, the industry should be a better industry for all of us, including the horses. But I do have one question for you, because I have three other witnesses and we're about to get started with the 1:00 hearing. Based on your testimony, Mr. Crane's testimony, it's somewhere around 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon is when the stalls are cleaned out, excrement is removed, hay is provided, new water.
Let me finish 160 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 what I'm saying. The report was done somewhere 10, o'clock at night, the KWY 4 report. 5
So whatever 7 time during the early part of the day, whether 8 it was 9:30 a.m. or 3:30 p.m. whatever, until 9 the next morning, the stalls are not cleaned, 10 which is in excess of 12 hours. Do you think 11 in that opinion that that's appropriate? I don't know. I'm not in the business. You're talking a minimum of 12 hours before any cleaning, replenishing of hay taking care of the water is done for at least 12 hours.
Well, the hay and the water, they get fresh hay and fresh water, at, I'll say, 7:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. or 9:00 p.m. So when KYW was there --
According to Mr. Krane's testimony, nobody's there after 3:30 or so, that's it, and that's why the condition of the stable was what it was because it was 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night. 161 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
You had your time. If you want to speak, I'll recognize you in a few minutes, Mr. Crane. Thank you
We have a 24-hour stablehand at the site. And it's his responsibility to approximately like 9:00 or 10:00 to give the horses fresh water and fresh hay.
So I go back to my point, that based on the coverage of KWY and the condition of the stable which had the water had hay it in, straw, and I understand your explanation, limited amount of straw, hay, whatever was in there, that all happened in one hour, it all disappeared in one hour? If you're telling me the stablehand is there 10:00 p.m. and the news coverage was at 11:00, those conditions all happened in now hour? Before it was seven hours.
The stalls were not cleaned at the time. The stalls only they clean in the morning.
That's my 162 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 point. So it's hours minimum before the stalls are cleaned again. I'm asking is that appropriate? Is that something that meets standards? I don't know.
As far -- I mean, in 7 all honesty, you'd have to ask the horse. 8
The last horse 9 I know who spoke was Mr. Ed. And before that 10 when I was a very young boy, it was a donkey 11 named Francis, but outside of that, I don't 12 know of any horse that will give me an answer. I need to ask people. I'm not going to ask the horse. That gets ridiculous, although I don't like to use that word. I'm asking people who tell me that they're doing everything they need to do to provide sanitary, healthy environments for the horses.
One the reasons for cleaning the stalls is to prevent mold and sores on the horse. In over the years that 22 we've been in business caring for the horses, 23 we have never had any sores or any type of 24 ailments or sickness occur because of only 25 cleaning the stalls once a day. 163 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105
I don't mean to cut off your testimony. There are three other witnesses. Do you have anything to -- and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the Council President is here. The other hearing is about to resume. Do you have anything to add to this testimony that has not already been discussed of any significance? Could you come forward be as brief as possible. I'd appreciate that. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Casey McQuillan, M-C-Q-U-I-L-L-A-N. I own and operate the Kind Cafe located at 724 North Third. I am on the homebound route of the 76 Carriage Horses and watch them return them every day. Friday, May 7, during a brief storm at about 4 o'clock, a trash can blew into the street and spooked one of the horses which wildly galloped off the street, down the sidewalk, taking out a tree and missing a group of 2-year-olds, about 20 of them, who 164 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 stood on the corner of Second and Third on their way to the park right down the street. So I'm here to say that I think we all agree that the horses should be treated well. But I'm also here to say that I don't think the drivers of these horses have any control over them. And that fact was actually stated to me by Ms. Kramer after I reported the incident to the police. She came to me and said that though they train horses as well as they can and they train the drivers as well, a horse is a horse and it's a very large animal that cannot, in fact, be controlled under all circumstances by a human. And as someone who grew up with horses, I am all too aware of their awesome strength and power and free will. And if a horse wants to take off, it will take off. And I witnessed that outside of my cafe the other day. And I worry for the safety of the children in my neighborhood. I worry for the safety of my elderly clients who could not get out of the way if they tried. And I also wonder if this may not me an antiquated business where 165 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 perhaps these large farm animals do not belong in service on a crowded street in the City of Philadelphia.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. I appreciate your patience in waiting to testify. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name Jennifer Bofinger, B-O-F-I-N-G-E-R. As a former employee of People For the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and I will tell you that I am imposed to carriage horses in general. However, I know that's not the issue here today and I'm just going skip to one thing, and that's the discussion of fines. In 2000, Mr. Slocum reported or was quoted in the Philadelphia Business Journal as saying --
Excuse me. If you have to do private conversation, please do it outside. This witness is try to go testify. It's very difficult for the stenographer to hear the 166 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 testimony. Thank you Mr. Slocum stated in the Philadelphia Business Journal in 2000, which is four years ago, that his business was going to yield $2 million in revenue. Now, I don't know what it's yielding now, but a $25 fine for animal cruelty is nothing, as we've just heard to. And animal cruelty laws, as was stated earlier, are not strict in this stat and many states because animals are regarded as property. So if we get anything out of this, I would hope that the fines would be raised so that it would be an economic disadvantage to treat an animal cruelly. Thank you.
I appreciate your testimony. I think you're pretty much on target with that as well.
This concludes the hearing on the Committee of Streets and Services. I'm going to recess this hearing to the call of the Chair. That means at some later point when all of these discussions and these meetings take place, we may have some 167 05/18/04 - STREETS - RES. 040105 new regulations, some new information to put out there. So rather than advertise for a new hearing, we'll just recess to the call of the Chair. It probably won't happen until the fall, but if we have to do it sooner, we will. Thank all of you for your time in attending today's hearing. Thank you. (Council adjourned at 1:05 p.m.) - - - - 168 C E R T I F I C A T I O N. I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, May 18, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON STREETS AND SERVICES _________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR