COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC UTILITIES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:10 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR., CHAIR COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE RESOLUTION 080396 - Resolution authorizing Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold hearings on the safety of the Philadelphia subways, elevated trains, buses and commuter rail lines... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good afternoon. We are going to get started. I want to thank everybody for coming out. Welcome. This is the hearing from the Committee of Transportation and Public Utilities. Will the Clerk please read the title of the resolution.
Resolution 11 authorizing Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold hearings on the safety of the Philadelphia subways, elevated trains, buses and commuter rail lines and the measures that SEPTA, the City, the Department of Public Property and the Police are taking to protect all riders on the public transportation system.
I'd like to also recognize the Vice-Chair of Transportation and Public Utilities, Councilman Greenlee, and I'd like to also recognize Councilman DiCicco. I wanted to open up with a 3 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 couple of remarks. One, a good friend of mine, a Philadelphian by the name of Gordon Linton, who is a former State Representative from the Northwest, said to me -- and he became -- he went on after he was State Rep to become the Deputy for the Federal Transportation Administration. He said that public transportation is an invisible resource that only becomes visible when it does not occur, and today's hearings is a clear example of that point. Ninety-nine percent of the time we take for granted the invisible transportation system of SEPTA when it moves quickly and on time. But the tragic events that have led us to this hearing today should be a wake-up call for us all, and, in fact, we're going to start by saying that this is not a point-the-finger-at-anyone session. This is an assessment of where we are and where as a municipality and a public utility do we need to be -- a public 4 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 transportation system do we need to be. It is an opportunity for us to work together and examine creative solutions to continue to make Philadelphia a vibrant city and an economic success, and one of the key staples of that is a safe transportation system. I want to also say that a constituent of mine brought into my office a thick chain. It looked to me like a dog chain. And the only problem with that was, they did not own a dog. She took it out of her pocket of her son's coat. She explained to me in dismay -- and he goes to one of those fine schools that you get off of the bus -- and I won't point out the school -- on Broad Street, and every day he has to take that Broad Street Line, and it has become a rite of passage unfortunately, a violent rite of passage, for him to ride that subway and he and his friends know that they somehow have 5 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 to defend themselves. And right out of a chapter of West Side Story, he felt that this was the way that he needed to conduct himself. Well, young people should not have to face that every day in order to have an education, whether it's victims of crime or people seeking an education. We depend upon this system to get here to there, and we have to make it safe, and it's all of our job. And so we're here today to start that process, and I'd like to start calling witnesses, because we have a long line of testimony, and I'd like to first hear from the Administration. For the record, I have Brian O'Neill, who is also a member of this Committee. DEPUTY
And 6 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 other members that are here. My name is Everett Gillison and I am the Deputy Mayor for Public Safety. The City of Philadelphia has a crime strategy that is being implemented by the Philadelphia Police Department. That strategy, in part, deals with collaboration with other law enforcement agencies. Among those agencies are the SEPTA and SEPTA Police. The new Police Commissioner has been working with other agencies, SEPTA included, to strengthen and improve those relationships, and you will hear shortly from the Commissioner himself about how the Philadelphia Police Department is sharing the information regarding the crimes on SEPTA property and how they are working together on joint efforts. The City is committed to protecting all of its citizens, and we are constantly making adjustments to ensure quick responses to crime patterns and also crime trends. 7 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 But this concludes the portion of my testimony. I thank you for the opportunity to appear today to testify on behalf of the Administration, and I will be happy to answer any questions that you might have of me, but please feel free to listen further to the Commissioner before and then we would take questions jointly. Thank you.
Please. I'm sorry, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and other members of the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities. My name is Charles Ramsey and I'm the Police Commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department. First, let me thank you for allowing the Police Department the opportunity to be heard regarding this resolution. The focus of the crime-fighting strategy I put forward on January 30, 2008 is a bold, aggressive plan for a 8 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 long-term sustainable approach to reducing violent crime in Philadelphia. A major component of this strategy is collaboration with other major law enforcement agencies, including SEPTA Transit Police. To that desired end, members of the Philadelphia Police Department and members of the SEPTA Transit Police were already collaborating to improve our existing relationship to better combat crime as a team before the tragic death of Mr. Conroy. As I'm sure you're aware, SEPTA Transit Police has primary jurisdiction for patrolling the public transportation system. However, the Philadelphia Police Department is committed to supporting SEPTA Police in fighting crime in all corners of Philadelphia, including the public transportation system. We have improved the sharing of information regarding crimes occurring on SEPTA property and are working together on joint efforts. 9 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 At present, each of the six police divisions have put together a plan to specifically address how they patrol in and around public transportation systems, both above and below the ground. Each plan was developed based upon crime patterns, trends, as well as the geographical makeup and transit infrastructure in each division. Particular attention is focused on the Center City area and all subway lines. In fact, in response to a juvenile crime pattern identified several weeks ago, SEPTA and the Philadelphia Police Department collaborated and immediately increased police patrols during school dismissal times. In addition, the Philadelphia Police Department monitors on a daily basis all incidents which occur on public transportation systems throughout the City. This allows us to make comprehensive adjustments to ensure enforcement is swift and responsive to crime patterns and trends. Both 10 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Philadelphia and SEPTA Police met with the Guardian Angels to discuss possible ways they could assist in our joint efforts. In closing, let me state that the Philadelphia Police Department has an excellent partnership with the SEPTA Transit Police. Together, we are committed to protecting all riders on the public transportation system and throughout Philadelphia. This does conclude my testimony. Thank you once again, and at this time, I'll be happy to answer any questions that any members may have.
I guess we'll entertain some questions at this point while we have you up here. Would you like to?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, Commissioner, Mr. Gillison. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Good 11 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 afternoon.
Thank you for your testimony. It certainly looks like you're proactive in a lot of ways on this problem. You talk a little bit about the times of the incidents, and I think we all knew from what we heard from our constituents, what we read in the paper, that certainly that dismissal time is one of the key times. I don't know if you can give us numbers. How much do you increase patrols during that time, roughly, would you say? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, each division is different. What I have is the actual plan for the different divisions that we have, and depending on the incidents and the amount of kids using the particular line or the particular station, it does vary. I know that prior to the homicide that took place, the line that runs along Broad Street, we already had 12 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 had several incidents occur that involve teenagers, and one of my inspectors, Joe Sullivan, had taken it upon himself to begin a permanent assignment of people at stations. To give you an idea, in the 35th District, for an example, from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Monday through Friday, Broad and Olney, one beat officer, and then at 4:00 to 8:00 Monday through Friday, two that we would deploy down there actually on the platform; Broad and Lindley, two tactical officers from 3:00 to 6:00; Broad and Wyoming, two tactical officers, and then another site that between the coordination is covered totally by SEPTA. So what I'm trying to say is that what we've tried to do is deploy our people in a way that's consistent with the kind of complaints and also working very closely with SEPTA to make sure we're not wasting resources by doubling efforts. We're actually working 13 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 together. If there's an area that they need some additional support, we provide it. If there's one they can handle themselves, they handle it.
Thank you. May I ask a couple of just basic questions. How many stops are on Broad Street are we talking about? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There's four that I just mentioned there. Nine that I have that I see here that we've got covered. DEPUTY
We cover all of them, Councilman, but I think that as far as particular responsive to the matter, it would be 20 in total, is what I've heard. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: 22 Twenty-four, yeah. 23
On that 24 question, how many charter and public schools are along that route? Do we have 14 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 any coordination? Do we know that information? DEPUTY
I believe that the School District is scheduled to testify, and they probably would be in a better position to answer that question as far as how many particular either charter schools and/or public schools that would be along that route. I don't think that we have -- I would be able to research that and get that to you.
And while you're doing that, I would imagine -- and we can save some time. Since you don't know how many are there, you don't know what their dismissal times are, I would imagine? DEPUTY
I believe that would be in collaboration with the Police. I'm sure the police officers from those districts and the captains would know that information, since they're deploying officers during 15 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 that time. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There is flexibility there, because the captains know when we have our problems with the young riders getting out of school, and each one is adjusted accordingly.
And in so doing, have you made recommendations to the School Board about their dismissal times, which can be -- if you calculate the route that most of the students being let out of school travel, there are certain convergences at major hubs such as Broad and Olney, Broad and Girard, Broad and Erie and other places like that. Is there any coordination in those logistics to be able to kind of say if young people from Central don't get along with young people from another school and we find that to be a pattern, that a 15-minute, 20-minute, ten-minute one way early, ten-minute another way late allows for them to miss each other entirely? And I want to know if any logistic 16 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 coordination between the School Board, between SEPTA, between SEPTA Police, has that occurred? (Witness approached witness table.) DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Good afternoon.
Good afternoon. State your name for the record, please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: First Deputy Commissioner Patricia Georgio-Fox, Philadelphia Police Department. There have been many occasions with which we have approached the School Board with requests to alter dismissal times due to various problems, gang fights, the summer warmer weather. To date for this year, we have not yet approached them for any kind of alteration due to SEPTA issues. The issues of violence as they surround schools, particularly at dismissal time, have been addressed in the past and the 17 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 schools have frequently made adjustments for us, so that several high schools in a given area don't release at the same time. And it's something we're very much aware of. I don't believe that we've looked at that in terms of the subways. The ability for us to be able to track what percentage of students use those subways is very difficult. Certainly we'd be happy to entertain that. If SEPTA and the School Board felt that was necessary, we'd engage in that.
Well, as a suggestion, as a young person growing up in the streets of Philadelphia -- and it's not true now, but West Philadelphia at one time didn't get along with Overbrook High School, and never the tween should meet. And if we know those things and we can calculate transportation times and when they let out, you can avoid some of that. So you said you've done that in the past? 18 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: We have done it various times throughout school years when problems above ground have pointed -- made themselves very clear to us. If Lincoln and CEP were getting out at the same time, for example, and that caused us to have geographic problems, neighborhood disputes, we asked one of those schools, and frequently got success in having them alter their dismissal times.
When is the last time you did that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: I know we did it last spring, and we actually -- we've been very successful with the School Board, who has been very cooperative with us.
Just very quickly on that same point, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to verify what the Deputy Commissioner is saying. I've 19 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 seen it on a number of occasions where the individual captain works with the couple schools. Just one quick example, there were some problems between Boone School and the Mennonite High School, which is a private school, and the captain in that district -- actually, it crossed districts, between 9th and the 23rd -- got with the principals of those schools and worked that out. I mean, there was near riots right around 25th and Poplar for about a week, and through the intervention the Deputy Commissioner was talking about, it really has -- and it's just a matter of ten, 15 minutes changing the time. So that does work. You're absolutely right, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioner, somewhere around, I think it's, around 15 years ago, New York City merged their -- I think they 20 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 merged three police departments, the Police Department, the Transit and -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Housing.
-- Housing, but it was about that time that the subway started getting safer and -- I mean, New York started getting safer too because a lot more police officers on the street. But I know you've had experience in Chicago and Washington, DC and are probably, as you've already indicated, aware of the New York experience. Is that something you're looking at? Is it something that is exclusive to New York that it would work or does it have potential for a city like Philadelphia? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I'm not looking at that. I don't know if it's been looked at in the past here and if anyone has done any studies. I've worked in a couple different systems. In the District, for example, there is a metro transit police and there's a 21 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 totally separate agency, just like here, and it's well staffed. So there's very little that we, when I was in the District, that we had to do, although there were times, especially after 9/11 when we had to provide some support, but they had their own independent department, funding and the like. In Chicago, they tried it two different ways. They had a part of the department that was a transit unit that did patrol the subways and the buses. Then they went with a separate police department. Then they went back to the city handling it as well. So that was due largely, quite frankly, to funding as much as anything else. So I think either model could work. I've not looked at it here. I have no idea what would be the best model here. Right now I think that the cooperation and the collaboration that we currently have working with the Transit Police seems to be working well. I don't 22 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 know if there's been anything in the past that has been looked at in terms of merging, but --
Well, maybe I could ask this of Mr. Gillison. I know you sort of have the big picture, and it might be something that works. I know one thing, New York subway used to be the dirtiest, most unsafe place on earth, and it's one of the cleanest and safest places now, and it might be something we can learn from their experience, if not replicate. DEPUTY
I'll take a look at it. I know we have meetings upcoming with SEPTA and my counterparts over at SEPTA and we're going to be talking about a lot of different things.
Thank you. 23 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Good afternoon. DEPUTY
We have done -- I guess we've been doing reports on violence and school violence and related issues for about years, 11 and we have found that the police know 12 which kids -- like we're Communications 13 Charter School, for example, and between 14 our Police and the SEPTA Police, they 15 know which kids are there, and my opinion 16 is that that wouldn't be a hard thing for 17 us to handle, which kids are there and 18 which kids aren't in school. That's 19 easy. And to rectify that situation. We 20 may want to handle where we take them differently, whether we take them to the closest school, which we've had debates about due to the turf issue, whether we take them to -- where we take them when we get them. But finding out who is in 24 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the subways is not a hard issue and not one that we haven't done in the past. So I think that that's not a big issue. We're concerned about the students, the other people already in the subway. As the Deputy Mayor knows, I'm always concerned about homelessness, and we're also concerned about the Philadelphia -- I'll talk to SEPTA when they come forward about other issues. I always have issues about dogs. I always have an issue about that. Our police pretty much doesn't use it. Dogs are good for sniffing out drugs and things like that, but not for people. And I always have an issue of that sort. Having been a victim of that, I always go there. But certainly our Philadelphia Police Department doesn't use dogs unseemingly, and in 2008, I think we have to be careful. But we certainly want to extend our hand in partnership when it comes to the homeless people who are there. 25 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 That's my passion. That's my mission that God gave me to do. And certainly I will make available previous studies that we've done on the issue. And I think again, Mr. Chairman and certainly Deputy Mayor and Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner, that knowing who is there, what schools are there and which schools use the subway is not very difficult. I mean, SEPTA Police already know, and I think that's something we can handle without a lot to do. But we certainly want to work with you to try to ameliorate the problems we have. Thank you. DEPUTY
Thank you. You said for the record that we had stops, was that? 23 DEPUTY
And you 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 recognized due to crime reported a pattern of times when the subways were at a heightened state of danger. What were those times? DEPUTY
The times of the matters were -- between 3:00 and 6:00 are the times that I believe the Commissioner referenced in his testimony.
It's between 3:00 and 6:00. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Between 3:00 and 6:00 in most of the areas of the City, and within our Center City areas, including the concourse area, we run until midnight. We have specific Center City details to work with SEPTA until midnight.
Out of those 27 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 stops, what are the hot spots, if you would, for lack of a better professional term, on crime? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Northwest Division, which is the Olney, the Wyoming and the Lindley stops.
I'm trying 9 to go by stops. 10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Olney 11 is one that we check regularly. 12
Broad and 13 Olney. 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: 15 Girard is one that we check regularly. 16 To date, we check Broad and Snyder, but 17 we have not had problems there. Due to a 18 history of problems there, we check Broad 19 and Snyder regularly. Allegheny gets 20 checked regularly. Erie gets checked 21 regularly. Most of the stops above 22 Girard are getting checked on a regular 23 basis. And what we have are juveniles 24 are traversing above and below that Center City demarcation, and we cover 28 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Center City heavily, but the stops primarily above Girard are the ones that we check regularly.
Of those hot spots, I need two numbers. One, the total number of crimes committed on the referenced stops and particularly the 9 crimes committed on those hot spots just 10 mentioned. Do we have a sense of our 11 major crimes what has occurred on SEPTA 12 property or within a reasonable area of a 13 block? Is there any way of calculating 14 that? 15 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Sir, I've 16 got citywide totals here. I do not have 17 it by stop. We'll have to go back and 18 see if we can break it out that way, but 19 we have it by citywide, and it's current 20 as of April 15th. 21
So help me 22 with the citywide. And these are all 23 related to, if I have the right piece of 24 paper here, these are the subway and elevated systems? 29 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: This would be total SEPTA I'm referring to.
Can you, for the record, give us a sense of what that is, those numbers? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes. A total of 90. And, again, that's as of the -- and that's just Part 1 offenses, which are murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, theft, auto theft, are Part 1 offenses. It doesn't get into narcotics and things of that nature. But looking at that, Part 1 offenses, 90 year to date compared to 80 previous year.
So we're up a little bit, although crime statistics are down for the City? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, sir, but mostly in the area, robbery is showing the most significant increase, according to our records, and aggravated assault up by four, but robbery is the one that is showing 31 year to date 30 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 compared to last year. 3
Can you 4 target for us where -- you don't have 5 today where the hot spots are as it 6 relates to those robberies, right? 7 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: We'll go 8 back into our crime and break it out for 9 you, yes, sir. 10
Fair enough. 11 Do you have any sense of the 12 methodology of the robberies? Because 13 there's ten ways to rob a person. Do you 14 have a methodology of patterns of how 15 these crimes are occurring? 16 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: SEPTA is 17 probably able to speak to that, but from the reports I've read, a lot of it is strong arm, a lot of it is kids in packs, you know, four, five of them together and literally attacking an individual and taking property from them. Similar pattern, quite frankly, that I've seen elsewhere, but that seems to be one of the main ways in which it's taking place. 31 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396
And within that "pack" pattern of strong arm robbery, is it consistent with the times that you're talking about and maybe the hot spots on Broad Street? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, and we made some adjustments with Center City, but, yes, that's why we targeted these times to provide the extra support to SEPTA. Obviously if anything occurs, we'll go any time, but that's when we actually put people physically there during those hours to actually put higher visibility.
Could you repeat for me the total number of officers deployed during those hot times? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: We can total it up for you real quick. While we're trying to total here, we have it by division. We can continue to answer questions and we'll get a total for you.
Okay. Do 32 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 you, in a general question but a specific answer, have enough personnel, manpower to cover both the hot spots and time in conjunction with SEPTA, the partnership? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Right now we seem to be doing okay. With the summer months, hopefully we won't have -- because you don't have school issues and schools letting out and so forth, that perhaps it will not be quite as intense as it is right now. I mean, it could also go the opposite way, with kids out of school, they may have more time to ride the subways and have problems. So we'll have to monitor it very carefully. As of now, I'm comfortable what we currently have deployed. If this continues over long periods of time or we continue to see a spike, then that's a different issue and we may have to have a separate discussion around that.
So can you answer for me during those spike times how many people, personnel, undercover, 33 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 uniform that we have in conjunction with whatever task force SEPTA has? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Approximately 24.
Twenty-four during peak hours? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes.
And I'm going to probably defer my question -- we're going to put a pin in and then 12 we'll ask the SEPTA Police or Security 13 how they interface and see what the 14 personnel needs are. 15 Councilman Greenlee, you had a 16 question? 17
Yes. Two 18 real quick ones, if I could. Thank you. 19 One, on the times again, and 20 you may have said this and I may have 21 missed it. We obviously know that the 22 after-school dismissal time is the big 23 one. Are there any other times that you 24 see any kind of spike? And two times I'm thinking of, later at night when there's 34 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 a little less people riding and, secondly, on the weekends in any sort of time. Do you see any kind of spike there? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: This year to date the spike that we've seen in addition to the school dismissals would be specifically in the Center City concourse and up to the hours of about 11 or o'clock, which is why our detail 12 runs until midnight.
So in the concourses, though. Bring up my point of Public Property coming up in a minute. One other question of the Commissioners, if I could, though. You mentioned, Commissioner, in your testimony about meeting with the Guardian Angels to discuss possible ways they could assist. How far have you gotten with that? Because it seems like they have a way of being pretty effective, so that's why I throw that out there. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I think 35 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Chief Evans will have a little more information on that, but we had a very good meeting last week with the head of the Guardian Angels here in Philadelphia, as well as their leadership from Baltimore and Washington, DC, and there's a small chapter here, but the point of the discussion was to again coordinate resources in a way that made sense. And I've got a lot of very positive experience in working with the Angels in two different cities. So they can be very, very useful. There are issues that came up around tokens and so forth, but we actually have got a person willing to make a donation to provide that. Now, I know there's been a follow-up conversation between SEPTA and the Angels. I do not know what took place during that conversation, so Chief Evans will have to explain that.
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 36 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396
Thank you. Before we let you go, can you describe for me the communications processes between you and the SEPTA Police? And I mean on 9-1-1 or any other communication systems. Can you describe for us generally how that works? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: We use their radios below ground, and we have a sufficient number, I'm told, of those radios. So there's good interoperability from that sense, but it does require a separate radio that our officers have when they go below ground. Chief Evans and I speak. I mean, we actually met at the scene of the homicide. We've had meetings since then. So there's good communication at the top. And I think at the divisional level with our inspectors, there's been good coordination with SEPTA in terms of trying to coordinate the times, the number of people needed at the various locations and things of that nature. So 37 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 I think the communication has been good so far.
So you meet regularly as in? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, we meet as needed. I mean, since this homicide, we've met at least three times that we have met, but more if needed. But we certainly have exchanged phone numbers and information, if you're talking about me personally. Now, on a provisional level, I don't know how often they're meeting, but I do know they're on top of it, and it seems to be frequent enough to have a good strategy in place and be able to implement that strategy.
On specific communications, are you on the same radio frequency, for example, when they -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: No. 23
All right. So is that a challenge at all? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I 38 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 mean, that's one of many interoperability issues that face cities across the country. Is it ideal to be on the same band? Yeah, it is. The cost to be able to do that is pretty significant, but that's something that probably needs to be discussed. But right now we have access to their radios, so it's not as if we're going down with no radio communication. We do have radio communication by using their radios.
I'm a little confused. So how do you receive an assist call from a SEPTA police officer today? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: They would have to do it through 9-1-1.
So a SEPTA police officer who comes upon a band of robbers has to call 9-1-1 to get the police? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: They would radio through their radio dispatch, and their dispatch would contact our 39 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 dispatch center.
Oh, okay. It happens -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: So, I mean, he doesn't have to get on a cell phone and call. But he would just simply call for an assist, and then they would in turn notify us, and vice versa, quite frankly. I mean, if we needed assist of SEPTA. But, I mean, it would go through Communications.
All right. If a commuter is accosted and doesn't know the separation in authorities, a blue uniform to them is just relief from the pressure of being robbed. How do they know which to do, how to call and how to communicate? DEPUTY
I think on the basis of just the history that I think all of us have in the room about when you're riding on the SEPTA subway -- as you know, I do, almost as much as everyone else -- the citizen actually 40 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 will respond to the uniform and will go to the uniform, and I don't think they really care who is going to be responding. They know that that uniform represents the authority that will keep them safe, and it's up to those of us in authority to make sure that the communications are put together, so that if SEPTA needs additional Philadelphia police assistance, we have that, and I think the testimony that you've received thus far is that we do have that connection that allows that communication to go and go very well. When Philadelphia police are above ground and SEPTA is below ground, if they get into a problem, then they notify the 9-1-1 center. Philadelphia police come right down. And right now we have the Philadelphia police officers with SEPTA equipment, so when they get down there, they can talk to one another. So from an administration point of view, I think that we are as tight as 41 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 we can, given the severe limitations of being on different bandwidths at this point. But we're sharing equipment, and I think that's the best way we can make sure we keep the lines of communication open.
I agree, and I understand and I truly empathize with cost considerations by way of communication. I know that's a reality, but has anybody ever done a security assessment independent of our subways and this process? DEPUTY
It depends on what you mean by "independent" of this process. I know that there have been several decisions just through the Office of Emergency Management that we've been going through for homeland security purposes just to see what challenges are before us. I've been made aware of those questions, and that's something that we're continuing to pursue. But as far as an assessment independent of either 42 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 SEPTA's assessment of what's needed, I know one of the discussions that we've had a lot is we have a large infrastructure here that we're looking at and we have to maintain. As long as we're communicating, that's the first hurdle, and I think we're getting over that hurdle.
I agree with that assessment. You're absolutely on point, but sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees, and I've heard private sector individuals often bring in outside consultant companies and say -- DEPUTY
-- by the way, you might not want to have the cash register by the door. You might want to move it back to the rear of the door. DEPUTY
I've seen those kinds of security audits, security 43 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 assessments be invaluable to pointing out the obvious to us sometimes, and I was wondering if either do you know -- and we'll have an opportunity to hear from SEPTA. Have you ever heard of or -- I mean, when we start looking at the concourse, that's a labyrinth of different access/egress, whether there are enough cameras and/or emergency call phones. I mean, has anybody kind of taken a panoramic view of where we are and what we might want to improve upon? DEPUTY
I will definitely defer to the Department of Public Property as far as their assessments, since they're part of the issue, and see whether or not there's any assessments that I have not been made aware of. And, of course, SEPTA, I'm sure, has the direct answer to that, so I will defer to them as well.
Thank 44 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 you. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you, sir.
Do we have a representative from Public Property and MOIS? The Mayor's Office of Transportation here as well. Thank you. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Good afternoon.
Good afternoon. State your name for the record, please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: John Herzins, Deputy Commissioner in the Department of Public Property. As a department, we're responsible for the maintenance of the concourse, as well as the custodial issues relating to the concourse. And currently, one of our goals was to improve the cleanliness of the concourse, and we recently contracted with the Center City District, and there is a considerable amount of improvement, as 45 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 anyone who has used that system in the last few months has seen. And we are part of a working group being formed by the Deputy Mayor for Transportation to look at the whole broader issues in the concourse, how to enliven the entire concourse, how to improve the retailing down there, how to improve the lighting and that. So I think we mentioned in our testimony to you two weeks ago that we were forming that group right now, and we will keep you abreast as we move along in that process.
Is that your testimony? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Yes.
Why don't we take both and then open for questions. State your name for the record, please.
I'm Christopher Zearfoss, an assistant to Rina Cutler, who is, of course, the Deputy Mayor for 46 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Transportation and Utilities. She's out of town and asked me to deliver her testimony here today. As is the case with most issues, public transportation safety should be viewed in terms of both past progress and problems, as well as unfulfilled potential for additional upgrades. Using 1980 as a baseline, transit system safety was rather poor by today's standards. Neither the Broad or Market-Frankford Lines cars at that time had any provision for riders to communicate with the train drivers, and visibility between the cars in the trains was limited at best. SEPTA's Transit Police force was not yet up and running. And while the subway and El drivers had emergency train phones, bus and trolley drivers at that time had no way to communicate with police from their consoles. And, of course, back then we didn't even have cell phones for private 47 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 use. About all the bus and trolley riders had to protect them was roof-top emergency flashers on the buses and trolleys as a means of conveying a distress signal, with the hope that a police officer or a concerned citizen would respond. Most subway stations at the time were unmodernized with substandard lighting, poor maintenance and lots of blind corners and hazardous areas. Over the last quarter century we've made much, much progress. We have new cars on both the Market-Frankford and Broad Street Lines that feature communication links between the riders and the motormen and bigger and more end windows so that police or other riders can see what's going on in the adjacent cars and detect the problem. All of SEPTA's trains, buses and trolleys have radio communications capability with the SEPTA Control Center, 48 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 and GPS systems track most of those vehicles in terms of location. And with few exceptions, all of the subway El stops have been modernized, better lighting, improved lines of sight, getting rid of blind corners where possible. SEPTA will go into, I'm sure, in greater detail. They have a Smart Stations project underway that will provide audiovisual communications and security upgrades at all of the 60-some subway-elevated stations. About a third of them are nearing completion, with the rest to be finished in 2011. SEPTA's Transit Police force is currently budgeted 248 heads. Prompted by recent events and the new state transit funding, a number of additional measures have been or are being implemented, and John Herzins alluded to some of them. In addition, SEPTA has an initiative to improve its overall vehicle and station cleaning and 49 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 maintenance efforts, and I think the history has shown that there's a correlation between a facility or a tunnel or a station that's in good order and the relevance of crime. The dirt, graffiti breed other types of bad behavior. And then the other initiative again, as John mentioned, is that the City and SEPTA have partnered with the Center City District to consolidate custodial functions in the concourse. So we have one-stop shopping and a more coordinated and consistent effort to maintain the concourse system. There are some other initiatives that our office believes warrants some serious consideration. One would be to try to find a way for SEPTA to accelerate the completion of its Smart Stations project, which right now is two or three years into the future. And, secondly, as John Herzins mentioned, to formulate a comprehensive modernization 50 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 of our downtown concourse system, which is the gateway to almost a dozen SEPTA and PATCO stations. You have to go through the concourse to get to these stations. And the improvements would include upgraded stairways, lighting, signage, which is, I know, a particular concern of Rina Cutler's.
People get down into the system and just become totally disoriented, especially if they're a new rider on the system. Emergency communications, closed-circuit TV surveillance, and perhaps, as John alluded, introducing retail or other endeavors to inject activity into the concourse to make it more lively and less foreboding. In the final analysis, crime on the transit system is rooted in a diverse set of causes which lie beyond the ability of SEPTA, PATCO or the Police to address. That said, our office stands ready to partner with SEPTA, PATCO, law enforcement and other stakeholders to 51 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 1 million riders who board transit vehicles in the region every day. All that said, we believe our transit system is basically safe and we encourage people to continue to ride the system. Thank you for your attention, and I'll try to answer any questions you may have.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I guess, Mr. Herzins, you heard Deputy Commissioner Fox talk about lighting, and I agree as somebody who also uses the system a lot, you've done tremendous improvements in that. Are there some areas that you still feel need more of the -- with Public Property 52 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 we're talking about concourse. We're not talking about the actual stations, platforms, right? Am I correct in that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Right. Once you get beyond the gated area, it's out of Public Property's jurisdiction.
That would be SEPTA, right? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Yes.
On the concourses, are there some areas you kind of haven't gotten to yet or you still think needs to have more work or are you satisfied with the lighting generally? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: That's part of our working group. We're going to take a relook at the lighting throughout the whole concourse area and see what improvements can be added.
Okay. And I will agree with your statement or Mr. Zearfoss's statement about the Center 53 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 City District. I see a noticeable improvement in the whole cleanliness issue. It seems like I guess because they can dedicate more people, time or whatever to it, it seems to have really improved it. If I can ask a question about phones, and that might be Mr. Phillis's thing. How many do we have, emergency phones? You're probably going to have to come up there, sir. (Witness approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. Terry Phillis, Chief Information Officer for MOIS. You were asking about the number of emergency --
Emergency phones, 54 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the last count that I have is there are 60 of them.
Sixty, 6-0. We are in the process of beginning a program where we're going to replace every one of those with a tamper-proof model, because it's not unusual for those to get destroyed through vandalism, et cetera. So we're right in the process now. We had the funding available and we've actually started the program so that the ones we're repairing, we're repairing with the tamper-proof models.
Probably a good idea. I guess they're prime targets for vandalism.
I wasn't aware that they weren't tamper-proof until we just started looking at them. So we are replacing each one.
Now, when they are working, do you find evidence that people use them? 55 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396
I couldn't answer that. I think that would be a better answer for the Police Department, because they go directly to -- they go directly to 9-1-1.
I see. Well, maybe the SEPTA Police will know. Just one more question, if I could, Mr. Chairman, and I think we were both talking about this. This whole Smart Station thing with the TV surveillance, do you get involved in that? Would that be yours?
I do not get involved with the video surveillance project on the SEPTA property per se, but since we're running the project from MOIS for video surveillance within the City, there are two different things going on. One is the installation, of course, of our own network to support the public safety and the police identification and where those cameras should go. Concurrent to that we're working on an 56 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 interoperability plan where people are going to start coming together, now that we've got the thing rolling, as to how the police and the other jurisdictions can work together utilizing each other's video, and that includes public housing, SEPTA. We've got requests from everybody under the sun that wants to be part of the video surveillance network, but in reality, we haven't been able to do that yet because we're just trying to get the project on track first.
Got you. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Has there been cooperation between the City and SEPTA by way of -- and I recall there being some problems by way of site advantage and particular mountings and jurisdiction about who owned what property and easements to allow people to use other --
It actually was 57 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 not a problem between the City and SEPTA. It was a, I'll call it, a speed bump between the vendor and SEPTA just on getting on the right page so that SEPTA could approve the engineering diagrams so that the cameras could utilize their assets for several of the locations. For instance, the El locations, obviously there is a great need to have cameras underneath those for public safety purposes, but as of this point, SEPTA and Unisys, who is our vendor, along with MOIS's overview, it's working fine and the diagrams for approval by SEPTA are due, I believe it's, next week.
We own the public station; is that correct? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: We own the concourse prior to getting beyond the gated part. So until you pay, we are responsible.
Do we own the actual stations? Are they City property? Isn't there a lease between 58 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the City of Philadelphia and SEPTA?
In terms of ownership, the City owns the Broad, Ridge, 8th, Locust subways, and the Market Street subway is owned by SEPTA. That's a simple way to parse it.
We're under a standstill agreement with SEPTA that was executed, I believe, in the fall of '05, and I believe the City Administration and Joe Casey and his new team are preparing to reactivate discussions on renewing that lease.
I'll ask this: Has there ever been an independent security audit of our secure facility -- take that back. Have we ever done a security audit of our stations? 59 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396
In the late '70s -- I'm dating myself -- the City did an audit or a study, whatever you want to call it, of applying closed-circuit TV surveillance to the whole subway elevated testimony, and that resulted in a pilot project that covered, as I recall, 9 stations, and that system was up and 10 running through most of the 1980s. It 11 was shut down in 1989. A decision was made in the early 1980s, I think, by Mayor Green and then SEPTA General Manager David Gund to focus resources on creating and expanding a SEPTA Police Department rather than staffing a CCTV surveillance system, which had labor ramifications in terms of the control room and the staffing that would be required to operate it. The only other security effort that I remember was an outgrowth of 9/11. I believe that the federal government did security audits of almost all the big transit systems, geared more to terrorism 60 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 rather than day-to-day crime, but, again, perhaps SEPTA can embellish on that.
As a municipality, City of Philadelphia, are we aware of any -- when was the last security audit of our publicly owned facilities along SEPTA routes?
Councilman, other than the efforts I just described, none others come to mind.
Other than 9/11, post 9/11 terrorism assessments, we have not kind of looked at access/egress as a whole?
The security is a bit off my particular radar screen, but I don't recall of any others. I would again defer to SEPTA or to our Police Commissioner to answer those questions.
I'm going to ask one more question and then we're going to bring up the young people, because they get out of school at a certain hour and anything beyond 3 61 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 o'clock is detention, and we won't do that to them. But have we looked at the -- to what degree are signs -- and I'm talking about digital signs -- a part of a security effort?
It would be a means to have SEPTA's Control Center notify riders of some unusual situation. That would be one thing to come to mind.
So, hypothetically, a pack of robbers heading south on the concourse, people south would be able to know it or field an alert?
In theory, that would be -- hardware would permit that, it would seem to me, yes.
And if a parent inadvertently lost a kid, for example, an AMBER Alert could identify the last whereabouts and general dimensions of a person?
A robbery suspect, rape suspect, those kinds of things?
All right. Thank you. Any other questions? (No response.)
Okay. Could I have Ms. Veronica Joyner and the students from her school come up, please. And she is the Chief Administrative Officer and Founder of the Mathematics, Civic and Science Charter School of Philadelphia. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. My name is Veronica Joyner and I'm the President and Founder of Parents United for Better Schools, Inc., a non-profit multi-racial parent advocacy corporation 63 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 based in Germantown. I'm also the President and Chief Administrative Officer of the Mathematics, Civics and Sciences Charter School of Philadelphia, one of the largest charter schools in Philadelphia with a population of 1,000 students. That's actually the largest in the state, one of the largest, and the school is ranked as one of the top ten schools in Philadelphia. Here is a list of documented incidents on Philadelphia subways. For five years I have documented, and here is the information of the incidents that have occurred on the subway. I will also provide you with a list of letters that have been given to former Commissioner Sylvester Johnson calling for more police protection for children on the subway lines. As I said, these documented cases started in 2003. I would like to say that the death of Mr. Conroy at a Philadelphia subway stop has awakened many 64 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Philadelphia citizens to a serious public problem, which started many, many years ago. I personally documented through letters, interview with every media outlet, radio, TV, the criminal attacks of school children and youth riding our subway lines daily for years. I spoke repeatedly and passionately about the serious attack of students attending the Mathematics, Civics and Sciences Charter School. I also spoke about attacks throughout the City on helpless, defenseless children and youth. The subway lines in Philadelphia are in no 16 way safe. The following fact sheet that you're given will sort of outline the problem and the number of attacks, as I said, dating back to 2003, September. The list, which you have, and written letters, there were reports from former Commissioner Johnson, who ordered police officers to patrol the subway stops at Broad and Spring Garden after I was told 65 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 by Captain Korn at the police district that the police officers could not go into the subway because the subway was SEPTA's jurisdiction. I am also accompanied by several students attending the Mathematics, Civics and Sciences Charter School who have been attacked on the subway, one spending a week in the hospital with a concussion as a result of his attack on the subway. The students put the attacks on YouTube and were caught and criminal charges were filed. My plea for help to Councilman Frank Rizzo, who organized a meeting on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 at my school to help resolve the problem, that meeting was attended by Councilman Frank Rizzo, Captain Michael Korn, Philadelphia Police Commissioner, Philadelphia former Superintendent Paul Vallas and the Philadelphia School District, Michael Whelan, who is the Director of Security, and Detective Henderson from the SEPTA 66 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Police Department. I will let you hear from this student. Can you introduce yourself so that everyone can hear you?
After 3 o'clock I was coming home from school. I got on the local subway going northbound, and when the sub was in motion, a group of six kids came up to me, and one of them, he asked me to empty out my pockets. I said no, so he got mad. He started to touch my pockets, so I forced his hand away. And one of his friends punched me in my face, and then -- they was 67 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 recording me with a camera, and I was -- I fought the main person that was talking to me, but they all jumped on me at the same time, and then I fell on the ground. And then they was stomping me and kicking me in my head when I was on the ground. Then afterwards I got up and they -- as soon as the sub got to the North Philadelphia station, they got off the subway and ran upstairs. And a SEPTA police officer came downstairs and he talked to me, and I talked to him, and he told me just to go home. So I went home. I told my parents, and then they took me to the hospital.
I'm sorry. May I interrupt? Did he take an incident report? 68 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396
And these vicious attacks continue to happen. There is another student -- any of these students can testify to witnessing any attack. Is there anyone that wants to testify? If you've been attacked, please come up. We need to hear from you. (Witness approached witness table.)
How are you doing, 69 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 sir? My name is James Jordan. An incident happened two weeks ago. I was attacked at Broad and Olney, on the corner of Broad and Olney. I was approached by at least ten guys. We had a couple words. Next thing you know, I got hit in the face, and a couple minutes after the fact, guys ran away, and a police officer approached me, and she tried to ask me what happened, but I was busy finding -- seeing where I was bleeding from and stuff. And after that, we went home and went to my cousin's house and called my parents. But she didn't take a police report or nothing like that at all.
I'd like to make the distinction. And they didn't 70 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 take a report?
And his mother did file charges. She filed charges and she's still waiting for someone to come to the school to get the information.
If I could, sir, if I could ask a more general question. Obviously that was a terrible incident. Generally when you take SEPTA, particularly the subways, do you see SEPTA or Philadelphia police around? Do you see a presence on an average day?
When you say "now," how recently have you seen a change?
Throughout the school year, for this school year of '08. But from last year I didn't see as much police officers, SEPTA police in the subway as I do now.
Okay. 71 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Thanks.
Are there any other young people from the school that want to testify? Thank you. Come up and state your name for the record, please. (Witness approached witness table.)
Hello. My name is Bevuon Bobb-Simple (ph), and I was with James Jordan the day that he got attacked, and we were just standing there waiting for the bus and then these boys just came over and started attacking him.
Well, some of them went to my school. One of them used to, but most of them went to different schools.
Okay. Just as a general question, as you ride SEPTA -- and, again, I'm going to emphasize, this is everyone's problem, 72 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 not just SEPTA. It's a school problem, it's a police problem, it's a City of Philadelphia problem. But do you ever see other people being robbed or victimized?
It would just be a group of people just trying to mess with people on the train, and they would just attack them and then they would just all run.
Is that usually, gentlemen, how it goes? (All witnesses nodding head in the affirmative.)
They use the subway stops to do it because there is not a lot of police. The Philadelphia police officers don't want to go under the subway because of the problems with the radios. So the attackers have a free reign of the subways, and they have 73 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 terrorized the subway stops for many years, and they've gotten away with it. So it's become a sport for a gang of boys to get together, get on the train, beat up someone, run from train to train and when the doors open, exit totally. And I've often said I feel like Harriet Tubman after school trying to get my children out of the area safely because of the continued attacks of my students on the subways.
Ms. Joyner, if I could just ask you a question. I know maybe some of the other young men want to testify. But you may have heard earlier with Deputy Commissioner Fox we had some discussion -- I don't know if you were here yet or not -- about meeting with the police, meeting with maybe some other schools. I know you talk about the meeting with De La Salle and the changing 74 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 of or alteration of dismissal times, and that has had some success. Was there any in your meetings -- I didn't have a chance to look through all this. Was there any discussion like that, and if there was, was there any positive results?
We had the meeting -- the list I think I gave you we had at my school. There were about 35 people in attendance, and that was last year. We talked about what was called the hot spots and that the weather gets warm and there are more fights between different schools, and our school was classified as one of those hot spots from Broad and Spring Garden to Broad and Olney, that there were continued attacks --
Up to Broad and Olney. And we have our security -- I've had to for nine years place our security 75 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 in the subways to make sure that the children are protected. And I have gone down into the subway. We've had to have our security and our maintenance people to ride the subway to protect our children on the subways.
I just was wondering, was the issue of the alteration of dismissals, did that come up?
Was that in any way helpful? Because I think you may have heard, I said that I had noticed that has been a help.
Yes. I've had to work because of attacks from Franklin students on our students because they were at ties. I've had to let my children out much earlier. So the times are -- we get out at 2:52. Franklin High School gets out at 3:10. Parkway gets out at 3:30. And then I usher my children out of the area as quickly as 76 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 possible. It's a violation for them to even remain in the area after school is dismissed.
And I know this isn't a perfect answer, the dismissal, because once they get on the subway, they're dealing with kids from all kind of different schools that get all kind of different times. I understand that. I'm just wondering specifically with that. And where's your school? I'm sorry.
We're located at 447 North Broad Street, right directly across from the School District. And my concern was that we had identified schools where attacks were coming from, CEP and De La Salle, which are both discipline schools. And to resolve it, I believe they started having buses to pick their children up and taking them to the stop so that they could not ride the subways. But the administration knew of the attacks, and if you look at the 77 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 two-page list, you'll see I repeatedly had to meet -- in fact, I ended up inviting the boys to my school and having a luncheon so that the boys could get to know each other as a resolution to try to be proactive. I've also attempted to do the same thing with Franklin and Parkway, and I've not gotten a response from the principals of those schools. And I'm a bit shocked, that we're trying to head off a problem and that neither principal -- and I verbally invited them and gave them letters to meet with me so that we can resolve many of the issues, because we all have children attending schools in the same area, but I find that they're not receptive to that issue.
We might be able to find a way to get them a little more receptive.
That would be very helpful. Is there anyone else before I 78 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 summarize?
And while they're coming up, could I make just more of a statement? And, Ms. Joyner, my guess is you probably have told them this already, but a couple of the incidents that were relayed sounded like it wasn't exactly proper actions by the police officer, whether it's Philly police or SEPTA police, and I know, unfortunately, one young man didn't get names. I think you all know you have to get names, because I would think the Philadelphia police authorities and SEPTA police authorities would not be too happy to hear of that fairly non-response that those officers gave, but obviously if you don't have a name, you can't really tell. And that's not telling on somebody; that's just making a situation better.
And I reiterate on that, but it's commonplace. It's such a norm that these fights occur that they're not even going to get involved. 79 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396
Well, fights -- I mean, obviously that's a big problem.
But I think it was the first young man talked about being hurt quite badly, and to just be told to go home, while he's going home something really -- I mean, I'm not trying to get dramatic, but something really tragic could have happened. So, I mean, that's where I think getting on individual incidents -- the general problem of maybe not enough officers and all, that's related, but it's a little different. But specific incidents like the young man talked about, getting names is really important, because my guess is that officer, whoever he or she may have been, did not act properly according to the guidelines. I'm quite confident.
I agree. And Officer Henderson is an officer that works for SEPTA and his job is to go to 80 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the various schools when these attacks are reported, and he reported to me that they had numerous attacks during that time, but nothing happened other than documenting the complaints. No proactive to try to stop them.
Well, you need proactive, but in his case, they didn't even take a report.
Right. Like I said, it's the norm. It's commonplace that they allow these thugs to take control of the subway lines, and I've said it repeatedly over the five years.
Well, I've said it at a smaller meeting with SEPTA. I do take SEPTA sometimes and a couple times I have taken it around school dismissal time and -- you know, I grew up in Fairmount. I've seen some things. But it was kind of scary. Some of these kids are really out of control. Obviously not your students, but obviously there are students out of 81 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 control. I'm sorry. I think he wants to...