Committee Hearing, April 17, 2008

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC UTILITIES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:10 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR., CHAIR COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE RESOLUTION 080396 - Resolution authorizing Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold hearings on the safety of the Philadelphia subways, elevated trains, buses and commuter rail lines... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

Good afternoon. We are going to get started. I want to thank everybody for coming out. Welcome. This is the hearing from the Committee of Transportation and Public Utilities. Will the Clerk please read the title of the resolution.

Resolution 11 authorizing Council's Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold hearings on the safety of the Philadelphia subways, elevated trains, buses and commuter rail lines and the measures that SEPTA, the City, the Department of Public Property and the Police are taking to protect all riders on the public transportation system.

I'd like to also recognize the Vice-Chair of Transportation and Public Utilities, Councilman Greenlee, and I'd like to also recognize Councilman DiCicco. I wanted to open up with a 3 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 couple of remarks. One, a good friend of mine, a Philadelphian by the name of Gordon Linton, who is a former State Representative from the Northwest, said to me -- and he became -- he went on after he was State Rep to become the Deputy for the Federal Transportation Administration. He said that public transportation is an invisible resource that only becomes visible when it does not occur, and today's hearings is a clear example of that point. Ninety-nine percent of the time we take for granted the invisible transportation system of SEPTA when it moves quickly and on time. But the tragic events that have led us to this hearing today should be a wake-up call for us all, and, in fact, we're going to start by saying that this is not a point-the-finger-at-anyone session. This is an assessment of where we are and where as a municipality and a public utility do we need to be -- a public 4 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 transportation system do we need to be. It is an opportunity for us to work together and examine creative solutions to continue to make Philadelphia a vibrant city and an economic success, and one of the key staples of that is a safe transportation system. I want to also say that a constituent of mine brought into my office a thick chain. It looked to me like a dog chain. And the only problem with that was, they did not own a dog. She took it out of her pocket of her son's coat. She explained to me in dismay -- and he goes to one of those fine schools that you get off of the bus -- and I won't point out the school -- on Broad Street, and every day he has to take that Broad Street Line, and it has become a rite of passage unfortunately, a violent rite of passage, for him to ride that subway and he and his friends know that they somehow have 5 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 to defend themselves. And right out of a chapter of West Side Story, he felt that this was the way that he needed to conduct himself. Well, young people should not have to face that every day in order to have an education, whether it's victims of crime or people seeking an education. We depend upon this system to get here to there, and we have to make it safe, and it's all of our job. And so we're here today to start that process, and I'd like to start calling witnesses, because we have a long line of testimony, and I'd like to first hear from the Administration. For the record, I have Brian O'Neill, who is also a member of this Committee. DEPUTY

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon. DEPUTY

And 6 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 other members that are here. My name is Everett Gillison and I am the Deputy Mayor for Public Safety. The City of Philadelphia has a crime strategy that is being implemented by the Philadelphia Police Department. That strategy, in part, deals with collaboration with other law enforcement agencies. Among those agencies are the SEPTA and SEPTA Police. The new Police Commissioner has been working with other agencies, SEPTA included, to strengthen and improve those relationships, and you will hear shortly from the Commissioner himself about how the Philadelphia Police Department is sharing the information regarding the crimes on SEPTA property and how they are working together on joint efforts. The City is committed to protecting all of its citizens, and we are constantly making adjustments to ensure quick responses to crime patterns and also crime trends. 7 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 But this concludes the portion of my testimony. I thank you for the opportunity to appear today to testify on behalf of the Administration, and I will be happy to answer any questions that you might have of me, but please feel free to listen further to the Commissioner before and then we would take questions jointly. Thank you.

Please. I'm sorry, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and other members of the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities. My name is Charles Ramsey and I'm the Police Commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department. First, let me thank you for allowing the Police Department the opportunity to be heard regarding this resolution. The focus of the crime-fighting strategy I put forward on January 30, 2008 is a bold, aggressive plan for a 8 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 long-term sustainable approach to reducing violent crime in Philadelphia. A major component of this strategy is collaboration with other major law enforcement agencies, including SEPTA Transit Police. To that desired end, members of the Philadelphia Police Department and members of the SEPTA Transit Police were already collaborating to improve our existing relationship to better combat crime as a team before the tragic death of Mr. Conroy. As I'm sure you're aware, SEPTA Transit Police has primary jurisdiction for patrolling the public transportation system. However, the Philadelphia Police Department is committed to supporting SEPTA Police in fighting crime in all corners of Philadelphia, including the public transportation system. We have improved the sharing of information regarding crimes occurring on SEPTA property and are working together on joint efforts. 9 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 At present, each of the six police divisions have put together a plan to specifically address how they patrol in and around public transportation systems, both above and below the ground. Each plan was developed based upon crime patterns, trends, as well as the geographical makeup and transit infrastructure in each division. Particular attention is focused on the Center City area and all subway lines. In fact, in response to a juvenile crime pattern identified several weeks ago, SEPTA and the Philadelphia Police Department collaborated and immediately increased police patrols during school dismissal times. In addition, the Philadelphia Police Department monitors on a daily basis all incidents which occur on public transportation systems throughout the City. This allows us to make comprehensive adjustments to ensure enforcement is swift and responsive to crime patterns and trends. Both 10 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Philadelphia and SEPTA Police met with the Guardian Angels to discuss possible ways they could assist in our joint efforts. In closing, let me state that the Philadelphia Police Department has an excellent partnership with the SEPTA Transit Police. Together, we are committed to protecting all riders on the public transportation system and throughout Philadelphia. This does conclude my testimony. Thank you once again, and at this time, I'll be happy to answer any questions that any members may have.

I guess we'll entertain some questions at this point while we have you up here. Would you like to?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, Commissioner, Mr. Gillison. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Good 11 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 afternoon.

Thank you for your testimony. It certainly looks like you're proactive in a lot of ways on this problem. You talk a little bit about the times of the incidents, and I think we all knew from what we heard from our constituents, what we read in the paper, that certainly that dismissal time is one of the key times. I don't know if you can give us numbers. How much do you increase patrols during that time, roughly, would you say? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, each division is different. What I have is the actual plan for the different divisions that we have, and depending on the incidents and the amount of kids using the particular line or the particular station, it does vary. I know that prior to the homicide that took place, the line that runs along Broad Street, we already had 12 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 had several incidents occur that involve teenagers, and one of my inspectors, Joe Sullivan, had taken it upon himself to begin a permanent assignment of people at stations. To give you an idea, in the 35th District, for an example, from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Monday through Friday, Broad and Olney, one beat officer, and then at 4:00 to 8:00 Monday through Friday, two that we would deploy down there actually on the platform; Broad and Lindley, two tactical officers from 3:00 to 6:00; Broad and Wyoming, two tactical officers, and then another site that between the coordination is covered totally by SEPTA. So what I'm trying to say is that what we've tried to do is deploy our people in a way that's consistent with the kind of complaints and also working very closely with SEPTA to make sure we're not wasting resources by doubling efforts. We're actually working 13 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 together. If there's an area that they need some additional support, we provide it. If there's one they can handle themselves, they handle it.

Thank you.

Thank you. May I ask a couple of just basic questions. How many stops are on Broad Street are we talking about? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There's four that I just mentioned there. Nine that I have that I see here that we've got covered. DEPUTY

We cover all of them, Councilman, but I think that as far as particular responsive to the matter, it would be 20 in total, is what I've heard. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: 22 Twenty-four, yeah. 23

On that 24 question, how many charter and public schools are along that route? Do we have 14 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 any coordination? Do we know that information? DEPUTY

I believe that the School District is scheduled to testify, and they probably would be in a better position to answer that question as far as how many particular either charter schools and/or public schools that would be along that route. I don't think that we have -- I would be able to research that and get that to you.

And while you're doing that, I would imagine -- and we can save some time. Since you don't know how many are there, you don't know what their dismissal times are, I would imagine? DEPUTY

I believe that would be in collaboration with the Police. I'm sure the police officers from those districts and the captains would know that information, since they're deploying officers during 15 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 that time. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There is flexibility there, because the captains know when we have our problems with the young riders getting out of school, and each one is adjusted accordingly.

And in so doing, have you made recommendations to the School Board about their dismissal times, which can be -- if you calculate the route that most of the students being let out of school travel, there are certain convergences at major hubs such as Broad and Olney, Broad and Girard, Broad and Erie and other places like that. Is there any coordination in those logistics to be able to kind of say if young people from Central don't get along with young people from another school and we find that to be a pattern, that a 15-minute, 20-minute, ten-minute one way early, ten-minute another way late allows for them to miss each other entirely? And I want to know if any logistic 16 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 coordination between the School Board, between SEPTA, between SEPTA Police, has that occurred? (Witness approached witness table.) DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. State your name for the record, please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: First Deputy Commissioner Patricia Georgio-Fox, Philadelphia Police Department. There have been many occasions with which we have approached the School Board with requests to alter dismissal times due to various problems, gang fights, the summer warmer weather. To date for this year, we have not yet approached them for any kind of alteration due to SEPTA issues. The issues of violence as they surround schools, particularly at dismissal time, have been addressed in the past and the 17 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 schools have frequently made adjustments for us, so that several high schools in a given area don't release at the same time. And it's something we're very much aware of. I don't believe that we've looked at that in terms of the subways. The ability for us to be able to track what percentage of students use those subways is very difficult. Certainly we'd be happy to entertain that. If SEPTA and the School Board felt that was necessary, we'd engage in that.

Well, as a suggestion, as a young person growing up in the streets of Philadelphia -- and it's not true now, but West Philadelphia at one time didn't get along with Overbrook High School, and never the tween should meet. And if we know those things and we can calculate transportation times and when they let out, you can avoid some of that. So you said you've done that in the past? 18 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: We have done it various times throughout school years when problems above ground have pointed -- made themselves very clear to us. If Lincoln and CEP were getting out at the same time, for example, and that caused us to have geographic problems, neighborhood disputes, we asked one of those schools, and frequently got success in having them alter their dismissal times.

When is the last time you did that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: I know we did it last spring, and we actually -- we've been very successful with the School Board, who has been very cooperative with us.

Councilman Greenlee.

Just very quickly on that same point, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to verify what the Deputy Commissioner is saying. I've 19 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 seen it on a number of occasions where the individual captain works with the couple schools. Just one quick example, there were some problems between Boone School and the Mennonite High School, which is a private school, and the captain in that district -- actually, it crossed districts, between 9th and the 23rd -- got with the principals of those schools and worked that out. I mean, there was near riots right around 25th and Poplar for about a week, and through the intervention the Deputy Commissioner was talking about, it really has -- and it's just a matter of ten, 15 minutes changing the time. So that does work. You're absolutely right, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Councilman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioner, somewhere around, I think it's, around 15 years ago, New York City merged their -- I think they 20 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 merged three police departments, the Police Department, the Transit and -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Housing.

-- Housing, but it was about that time that the subway started getting safer and -- I mean, New York started getting safer too because a lot more police officers on the street. But I know you've had experience in Chicago and Washington, DC and are probably, as you've already indicated, aware of the New York experience. Is that something you're looking at? Is it something that is exclusive to New York that it would work or does it have potential for a city like Philadelphia? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I'm not looking at that. I don't know if it's been looked at in the past here and if anyone has done any studies. I've worked in a couple different systems. In the District, for example, there is a metro transit police and there's a 21 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 totally separate agency, just like here, and it's well staffed. So there's very little that we, when I was in the District, that we had to do, although there were times, especially after 9/11 when we had to provide some support, but they had their own independent department, funding and the like. In Chicago, they tried it two different ways. They had a part of the department that was a transit unit that did patrol the subways and the buses. Then they went with a separate police department. Then they went back to the city handling it as well. So that was due largely, quite frankly, to funding as much as anything else. So I think either model could work. I've not looked at it here. I have no idea what would be the best model here. Right now I think that the cooperation and the collaboration that we currently have working with the Transit Police seems to be working well. I don't 22 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 know if there's been anything in the past that has been looked at in terms of merging, but --

Well, maybe I could ask this of Mr. Gillison. I know you sort of have the big picture, and it might be something that works. I know one thing, New York subway used to be the dirtiest, most unsafe place on earth, and it's one of the cleanest and safest places now, and it might be something we can learn from their experience, if not replicate. DEPUTY

I'll take a look at it. I know we have meetings upcoming with SEPTA and my counterparts over at SEPTA and we're going to be talking about a lot of different things.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you. 23 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Good afternoon. DEPUTY

Good afternoon. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Good afternoon.

We have done -- I guess we've been doing reports on violence and school violence and related issues for about years, 11 and we have found that the police know 12 which kids -- like we're Communications 13 Charter School, for example, and between 14 our Police and the SEPTA Police, they 15 know which kids are there, and my opinion 16 is that that wouldn't be a hard thing for 17 us to handle, which kids are there and 18 which kids aren't in school. That's 19 easy. And to rectify that situation. We 20 may want to handle where we take them differently, whether we take them to the closest school, which we've had debates about due to the turf issue, whether we take them to -- where we take them when we get them. But finding out who is in 24 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the subways is not a hard issue and not one that we haven't done in the past. So I think that that's not a big issue. We're concerned about the students, the other people already in the subway. As the Deputy Mayor knows, I'm always concerned about homelessness, and we're also concerned about the Philadelphia -- I'll talk to SEPTA when they come forward about other issues. I always have issues about dogs. I always have an issue about that. Our police pretty much doesn't use it. Dogs are good for sniffing out drugs and things like that, but not for people. And I always have an issue of that sort. Having been a victim of that, I always go there. But certainly our Philadelphia Police Department doesn't use dogs unseemingly, and in 2008, I think we have to be careful. But we certainly want to extend our hand in partnership when it comes to the homeless people who are there. 25 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 That's my passion. That's my mission that God gave me to do. And certainly I will make available previous studies that we've done on the issue. And I think again, Mr. Chairman and certainly Deputy Mayor and Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner, that knowing who is there, what schools are there and which schools use the subway is not very difficult. I mean, SEPTA Police already know, and I think that's something we can handle without a lot to do. But we certainly want to work with you to try to ameliorate the problems we have. Thank you. DEPUTY

Thank you.

Thank you. You said for the record that we had stops, was that? 23 DEPUTY

Yes, 24 roughly.

And you 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 recognized due to crime reported a pattern of times when the subways were at a heightened state of danger. What were those times? DEPUTY

What were the stops or the times?

Times and then stops. DEPUTY

The times of the matters were -- between 3:00 and 6:00 are the times that I believe the Commissioner referenced in his testimony.

3:00 and 6:00; is that correct? DEPUTY

It's between 3:00 and 6:00. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Between 3:00 and 6:00 in most of the areas of the City, and within our Center City areas, including the concourse area, we run until midnight. We have specific Center City details to work with SEPTA until midnight.

Out of those 27 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 stops, what are the hot spots, if you would, for lack of a better professional term, on crime? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Northwest Division, which is the Olney, the Wyoming and the Lindley stops.

I'm trying 9 to go by stops. 10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: Olney 11 is one that we check regularly. 12

Broad and 13 Olney. 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: 15 Girard is one that we check regularly. 16 To date, we check Broad and Snyder, but 17 we have not had problems there. Due to a 18 history of problems there, we check Broad 19 and Snyder regularly. Allegheny gets 20 checked regularly. Erie gets checked 21 regularly. Most of the stops above 22 Girard are getting checked on a regular 23 basis. And what we have are juveniles 24 are traversing above and below that Center City demarcation, and we cover 28 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Center City heavily, but the stops primarily above Girard are the ones that we check regularly.

Of those hot spots, I need two numbers. One, the total number of crimes committed on the referenced stops and particularly the 9 crimes committed on those hot spots just 10 mentioned. Do we have a sense of our 11 major crimes what has occurred on SEPTA 12 property or within a reasonable area of a 13 block? Is there any way of calculating 14 that? 15 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Sir, I've 16 got citywide totals here. I do not have 17 it by stop. We'll have to go back and 18 see if we can break it out that way, but 19 we have it by citywide, and it's current 20 as of April 15th. 21

So help me 22 with the citywide. And these are all 23 related to, if I have the right piece of 24 paper here, these are the subway and elevated systems? 29 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: This would be total SEPTA I'm referring to.

Can you, for the record, give us a sense of what that is, those numbers? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes. A total of 90. And, again, that's as of the -- and that's just Part 1 offenses, which are murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, theft, auto theft, are Part 1 offenses. It doesn't get into narcotics and things of that nature. But looking at that, Part 1 offenses, 90 year to date compared to 80 previous year.

So we're up a little bit, although crime statistics are down for the City? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, sir, but mostly in the area, robbery is showing the most significant increase, according to our records, and aggravated assault up by four, but robbery is the one that is showing 31 year to date 30 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 compared to last year. 3

Can you 4 target for us where -- you don't have 5 today where the hot spots are as it 6 relates to those robberies, right? 7 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: We'll go 8 back into our crime and break it out for 9 you, yes, sir. 10

Fair enough. 11 Do you have any sense of the 12 methodology of the robberies? Because 13 there's ten ways to rob a person. Do you 14 have a methodology of patterns of how 15 these crimes are occurring? 16 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: SEPTA is 17 probably able to speak to that, but from the reports I've read, a lot of it is strong arm, a lot of it is kids in packs, you know, four, five of them together and literally attacking an individual and taking property from them. Similar pattern, quite frankly, that I've seen elsewhere, but that seems to be one of the main ways in which it's taking place. 31 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

And within that "pack" pattern of strong arm robbery, is it consistent with the times that you're talking about and maybe the hot spots on Broad Street? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, and we made some adjustments with Center City, but, yes, that's why we targeted these times to provide the extra support to SEPTA. Obviously if anything occurs, we'll go any time, but that's when we actually put people physically there during those hours to actually put higher visibility.

Could you repeat for me the total number of officers deployed during those hot times? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: We can total it up for you real quick. While we're trying to total here, we have it by division. We can continue to answer questions and we'll get a total for you.

Okay. Do 32 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 you, in a general question but a specific answer, have enough personnel, manpower to cover both the hot spots and time in conjunction with SEPTA, the partnership? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Right now we seem to be doing okay. With the summer months, hopefully we won't have -- because you don't have school issues and schools letting out and so forth, that perhaps it will not be quite as intense as it is right now. I mean, it could also go the opposite way, with kids out of school, they may have more time to ride the subways and have problems. So we'll have to monitor it very carefully. As of now, I'm comfortable what we currently have deployed. If this continues over long periods of time or we continue to see a spike, then that's a different issue and we may have to have a separate discussion around that.

So can you answer for me during those spike times how many people, personnel, undercover, 33 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 uniform that we have in conjunction with whatever task force SEPTA has? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Approximately 24.

Twenty-four during peak hours? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes.

And I'm going to probably defer my question -- we're going to put a pin in and then 12 we'll ask the SEPTA Police or Security 13 how they interface and see what the 14 personnel needs are. 15 Councilman Greenlee, you had a 16 question? 17

Yes. Two 18 real quick ones, if I could. Thank you. 19 One, on the times again, and 20 you may have said this and I may have 21 missed it. We obviously know that the 22 after-school dismissal time is the big 23 one. Are there any other times that you 24 see any kind of spike? And two times I'm thinking of, later at night when there's 34 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 a little less people riding and, secondly, on the weekends in any sort of time. Do you see any kind of spike there? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOX: This year to date the spike that we've seen in addition to the school dismissals would be specifically in the Center City concourse and up to the hours of about 11 or o'clock, which is why our detail 12 runs until midnight.

So in the concourses, though. Bring up my point of Public Property coming up in a minute. One other question of the Commissioners, if I could, though. You mentioned, Commissioner, in your testimony about meeting with the Guardian Angels to discuss possible ways they could assist. How far have you gotten with that? Because it seems like they have a way of being pretty effective, so that's why I throw that out there. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I think 35 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Chief Evans will have a little more information on that, but we had a very good meeting last week with the head of the Guardian Angels here in Philadelphia, as well as their leadership from Baltimore and Washington, DC, and there's a small chapter here, but the point of the discussion was to again coordinate resources in a way that made sense. And I've got a lot of very positive experience in working with the Angels in two different cities. So they can be very, very useful. There are issues that came up around tokens and so forth, but we actually have got a person willing to make a donation to provide that. Now, I know there's been a follow-up conversation between SEPTA and the Angels. I do not know what took place during that conversation, so Chief Evans will have to explain that.

Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 36 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Thank you. Before we let you go, can you describe for me the communications processes between you and the SEPTA Police? And I mean on 9-1-1 or any other communication systems. Can you describe for us generally how that works? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: We use their radios below ground, and we have a sufficient number, I'm told, of those radios. So there's good interoperability from that sense, but it does require a separate radio that our officers have when they go below ground. Chief Evans and I speak. I mean, we actually met at the scene of the homicide. We've had meetings since then. So there's good communication at the top. And I think at the divisional level with our inspectors, there's been good coordination with SEPTA in terms of trying to coordinate the times, the number of people needed at the various locations and things of that nature. So 37 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 I think the communication has been good so far.

So you meet regularly as in? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, we meet as needed. I mean, since this homicide, we've met at least three times that we have met, but more if needed. But we certainly have exchanged phone numbers and information, if you're talking about me personally. Now, on a provisional level, I don't know how often they're meeting, but I do know they're on top of it, and it seems to be frequent enough to have a good strategy in place and be able to implement that strategy.

On specific communications, are you on the same radio frequency, for example, when they -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: No. 23

All right. So is that a challenge at all? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I 38 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 mean, that's one of many interoperability issues that face cities across the country. Is it ideal to be on the same band? Yeah, it is. The cost to be able to do that is pretty significant, but that's something that probably needs to be discussed. But right now we have access to their radios, so it's not as if we're going down with no radio communication. We do have radio communication by using their radios.

I'm a little confused. So how do you receive an assist call from a SEPTA police officer today? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: They would have to do it through 9-1-1.

So a SEPTA police officer who comes upon a band of robbers has to call 9-1-1 to get the police? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: They would radio through their radio dispatch, and their dispatch would contact our 39 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 dispatch center.

Oh, okay. It happens -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: So, I mean, he doesn't have to get on a cell phone and call. But he would just simply call for an assist, and then they would in turn notify us, and vice versa, quite frankly. I mean, if we needed assist of SEPTA. But, I mean, it would go through Communications.

All right. If a commuter is accosted and doesn't know the separation in authorities, a blue uniform to them is just relief from the pressure of being robbed. How do they know which to do, how to call and how to communicate? DEPUTY

I think on the basis of just the history that I think all of us have in the room about when you're riding on the SEPTA subway -- as you know, I do, almost as much as everyone else -- the citizen actually 40 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 will respond to the uniform and will go to the uniform, and I don't think they really care who is going to be responding. They know that that uniform represents the authority that will keep them safe, and it's up to those of us in authority to make sure that the communications are put together, so that if SEPTA needs additional Philadelphia police assistance, we have that, and I think the testimony that you've received thus far is that we do have that connection that allows that communication to go and go very well. When Philadelphia police are above ground and SEPTA is below ground, if they get into a problem, then they notify the 9-1-1 center. Philadelphia police come right down. And right now we have the Philadelphia police officers with SEPTA equipment, so when they get down there, they can talk to one another. So from an administration point of view, I think that we are as tight as 41 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 we can, given the severe limitations of being on different bandwidths at this point. But we're sharing equipment, and I think that's the best way we can make sure we keep the lines of communication open.

I agree, and I understand and I truly empathize with cost considerations by way of communication. I know that's a reality, but has anybody ever done a security assessment independent of our subways and this process? DEPUTY

It depends on what you mean by "independent" of this process. I know that there have been several decisions just through the Office of Emergency Management that we've been going through for homeland security purposes just to see what challenges are before us. I've been made aware of those questions, and that's something that we're continuing to pursue. But as far as an assessment independent of either 42 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 SEPTA's assessment of what's needed, I know one of the discussions that we've had a lot is we have a large infrastructure here that we're looking at and we have to maintain. As long as we're communicating, that's the first hurdle, and I think we're getting over that hurdle.

I agree with that assessment. You're absolutely on point, but sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees, and I've heard private sector individuals often bring in outside consultant companies and say -- DEPUTY

Oh, absolutely.

-- by the way, you might not want to have the cash register by the door. You might want to move it back to the rear of the door. DEPUTY

I understand.

I've seen those kinds of security audits, security 43 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 assessments be invaluable to pointing out the obvious to us sometimes, and I was wondering if either do you know -- and we'll have an opportunity to hear from SEPTA. Have you ever heard of or -- I mean, when we start looking at the concourse, that's a labyrinth of different access/egress, whether there are enough cameras and/or emergency call phones. I mean, has anybody kind of taken a panoramic view of where we are and what we might want to improve upon? DEPUTY

I will definitely defer to the Department of Public Property as far as their assessments, since they're part of the issue, and see whether or not there's any assessments that I have not been made aware of. And, of course, SEPTA, I'm sure, has the direct answer to that, so I will defer to them as well.

Okay. Thank you very much. DEPUTY

Thank 44 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 you. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you, sir.

Do we have a representative from Public Property and MOIS? The Mayor's Office of Transportation here as well. Thank you. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. State your name for the record, please. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: John Herzins, Deputy Commissioner in the Department of Public Property. As a department, we're responsible for the maintenance of the concourse, as well as the custodial issues relating to the concourse. And currently, one of our goals was to improve the cleanliness of the concourse, and we recently contracted with the Center City District, and there is a considerable amount of improvement, as 45 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 anyone who has used that system in the last few months has seen. And we are part of a working group being formed by the Deputy Mayor for Transportation to look at the whole broader issues in the concourse, how to enliven the entire concourse, how to improve the retailing down there, how to improve the lighting and that. So I think we mentioned in our testimony to you two weeks ago that we were forming that group right now, and we will keep you abreast as we move along in that process.

Is that your testimony? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Yes.

Why don't we take both and then open for questions. State your name for the record, please.

I'm Christopher Zearfoss, an assistant to Rina Cutler, who is, of course, the Deputy Mayor for 46 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Transportation and Utilities. She's out of town and asked me to deliver her testimony here today. As is the case with most issues, public transportation safety should be viewed in terms of both past progress and problems, as well as unfulfilled potential for additional upgrades. Using 1980 as a baseline, transit system safety was rather poor by today's standards. Neither the Broad or Market-Frankford Lines cars at that time had any provision for riders to communicate with the train drivers, and visibility between the cars in the trains was limited at best. SEPTA's Transit Police force was not yet up and running. And while the subway and El drivers had emergency train phones, bus and trolley drivers at that time had no way to communicate with police from their consoles. And, of course, back then we didn't even have cell phones for private 47 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 use. About all the bus and trolley riders had to protect them was roof-top emergency flashers on the buses and trolleys as a means of conveying a distress signal, with the hope that a police officer or a concerned citizen would respond. Most subway stations at the time were unmodernized with substandard lighting, poor maintenance and lots of blind corners and hazardous areas. Over the last quarter century we've made much, much progress. We have new cars on both the Market-Frankford and Broad Street Lines that feature communication links between the riders and the motormen and bigger and more end windows so that police or other riders can see what's going on in the adjacent cars and detect the problem. All of SEPTA's trains, buses and trolleys have radio communications capability with the SEPTA Control Center, 48 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 and GPS systems track most of those vehicles in terms of location. And with few exceptions, all of the subway El stops have been modernized, better lighting, improved lines of sight, getting rid of blind corners where possible. SEPTA will go into, I'm sure, in greater detail. They have a Smart Stations project underway that will provide audiovisual communications and security upgrades at all of the 60-some subway-elevated stations. About a third of them are nearing completion, with the rest to be finished in 2011. SEPTA's Transit Police force is currently budgeted 248 heads. Prompted by recent events and the new state transit funding, a number of additional measures have been or are being implemented, and John Herzins alluded to some of them. In addition, SEPTA has an initiative to improve its overall vehicle and station cleaning and 49 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 maintenance efforts, and I think the history has shown that there's a correlation between a facility or a tunnel or a station that's in good order and the relevance of crime. The dirt, graffiti breed other types of bad behavior. And then the other initiative again, as John mentioned, is that the City and SEPTA have partnered with the Center City District to consolidate custodial functions in the concourse. So we have one-stop shopping and a more coordinated and consistent effort to maintain the concourse system. There are some other initiatives that our office believes warrants some serious consideration. One would be to try to find a way for SEPTA to accelerate the completion of its Smart Stations project, which right now is two or three years into the future. And, secondly, as John Herzins mentioned, to formulate a comprehensive modernization 50 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 of our downtown concourse system, which is the gateway to almost a dozen SEPTA and PATCO stations. You have to go through the concourse to get to these stations. And the improvements would include upgraded stairways, lighting, signage, which is, I know, a particular concern of Rina Cutler's.

People get down into the system and just become totally disoriented, especially if they're a new rider on the system. Emergency communications, closed-circuit TV surveillance, and perhaps, as John alluded, introducing retail or other endeavors to inject activity into the concourse to make it more lively and less foreboding. In the final analysis, crime on the transit system is rooted in a diverse set of causes which lie beyond the ability of SEPTA, PATCO or the Police to address. That said, our office stands ready to partner with SEPTA, PATCO, law enforcement and other stakeholders to 51 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 1 million riders who board transit vehicles in the region every day. All that said, we believe our transit system is basically safe and we encourage people to continue to ride the system. Thank you for your attention, and I'll try to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you. Councilman Greenlee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I guess, Mr. Herzins, you heard Deputy Commissioner Fox talk about lighting, and I agree as somebody who also uses the system a lot, you've done tremendous improvements in that. Are there some areas that you still feel need more of the -- with Public Property 52 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 we're talking about concourse. We're not talking about the actual stations, platforms, right? Am I correct in that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Right. Once you get beyond the gated area, it's out of Public Property's jurisdiction.

That would be SEPTA, right? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Yes.

On the concourses, are there some areas you kind of haven't gotten to yet or you still think needs to have more work or are you satisfied with the lighting generally? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: That's part of our working group. We're going to take a relook at the lighting throughout the whole concourse area and see what improvements can be added.

Okay. And I will agree with your statement or Mr. Zearfoss's statement about the Center 53 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 City District. I see a noticeable improvement in the whole cleanliness issue. It seems like I guess because they can dedicate more people, time or whatever to it, it seems to have really improved it. If I can ask a question about phones, and that might be Mr. Phillis's thing. How many do we have, emergency phones? You're probably going to have to come up there, sir. (Witness approached witness table.)

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. Terry Phillis, Chief Information Officer for MOIS. You were asking about the number of emergency --

About phones, emergency phones.

Emergency phones, 54 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the last count that I have is there are 60 of them.

How many?

Sixty, 6-0. We are in the process of beginning a program where we're going to replace every one of those with a tamper-proof model, because it's not unusual for those to get destroyed through vandalism, et cetera. So we're right in the process now. We had the funding available and we've actually started the program so that the ones we're repairing, we're repairing with the tamper-proof models.

Probably a good idea. I guess they're prime targets for vandalism.

I wasn't aware that they weren't tamper-proof until we just started looking at them. So we are replacing each one.

Now, when they are working, do you find evidence that people use them? 55 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

I couldn't answer that. I think that would be a better answer for the Police Department, because they go directly to -- they go directly to 9-1-1.

I see. Well, maybe the SEPTA Police will know. Just one more question, if I could, Mr. Chairman, and I think we were both talking about this. This whole Smart Station thing with the TV surveillance, do you get involved in that? Would that be yours?

I do not get involved with the video surveillance project on the SEPTA property per se, but since we're running the project from MOIS for video surveillance within the City, there are two different things going on. One is the installation, of course, of our own network to support the public safety and the police identification and where those cameras should go. Concurrent to that we're working on an 56 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 interoperability plan where people are going to start coming together, now that we've got the thing rolling, as to how the police and the other jurisdictions can work together utilizing each other's video, and that includes public housing, SEPTA. We've got requests from everybody under the sun that wants to be part of the video surveillance network, but in reality, we haven't been able to do that yet because we're just trying to get the project on track first.

Got you. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Has there been cooperation between the City and SEPTA by way of -- and I recall there being some problems by way of site advantage and particular mountings and jurisdiction about who owned what property and easements to allow people to use other --

It actually was 57 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 not a problem between the City and SEPTA. It was a, I'll call it, a speed bump between the vendor and SEPTA just on getting on the right page so that SEPTA could approve the engineering diagrams so that the cameras could utilize their assets for several of the locations. For instance, the El locations, obviously there is a great need to have cameras underneath those for public safety purposes, but as of this point, SEPTA and Unisys, who is our vendor, along with MOIS's overview, it's working fine and the diagrams for approval by SEPTA are due, I believe it's, next week.

We own the public station; is that correct? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: We own the concourse prior to getting beyond the gated part. So until you pay, we are responsible.

Do we own the actual stations? Are they City property? Isn't there a lease between 58 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the City of Philadelphia and SEPTA?

In terms of ownership, the City owns the Broad, Ridge, 8th, Locust subways, and the Market Street subway is owned by SEPTA. That's a simple way to parse it.

So the Broad Street Line we own?

Yes, sir.

When are those leases due to expire?

We're under a standstill agreement with SEPTA that was executed, I believe, in the fall of '05, and I believe the City Administration and Joe Casey and his new team are preparing to reactivate discussions on renewing that lease.

I'll ask this: Has there ever been an independent security audit of our secure facility -- take that back. Have we ever done a security audit of our stations? 59 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

In the late '70s -- I'm dating myself -- the City did an audit or a study, whatever you want to call it, of applying closed-circuit TV surveillance to the whole subway elevated testimony, and that resulted in a pilot project that covered, as I recall, 9 stations, and that system was up and 10 running through most of the 1980s. It 11 was shut down in 1989. A decision was made in the early 1980s, I think, by Mayor Green and then SEPTA General Manager David Gund to focus resources on creating and expanding a SEPTA Police Department rather than staffing a CCTV surveillance system, which had labor ramifications in terms of the control room and the staffing that would be required to operate it. The only other security effort that I remember was an outgrowth of 9/11. I believe that the federal government did security audits of almost all the big transit systems, geared more to terrorism 60 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 rather than day-to-day crime, but, again, perhaps SEPTA can embellish on that.

As a municipality, City of Philadelphia, are we aware of any -- when was the last security audit of our publicly owned facilities along SEPTA routes?

Councilman, other than the efforts I just described, none others come to mind.

Other than 9/11, post 9/11 terrorism assessments, we have not kind of looked at access/egress as a whole?

The security is a bit off my particular radar screen, but I don't recall of any others. I would again defer to SEPTA or to our Police Commissioner to answer those questions.

I'm going to ask one more question and then we're going to bring up the young people, because they get out of school at a certain hour and anything beyond 3 61 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 o'clock is detention, and we won't do that to them. But have we looked at the -- to what degree are signs -- and I'm talking about digital signs -- a part of a security effort?

It would be a means to have SEPTA's Control Center notify riders of some unusual situation. That would be one thing to come to mind.

So, hypothetically, a pack of robbers heading south on the concourse, people south would be able to know it or field an alert?

In theory, that would be -- hardware would permit that, it would seem to me, yes.

And if a parent inadvertently lost a kid, for example, an AMBER Alert could identify the last whereabouts and general dimensions of a person?

Yes. 62 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

A robbery suspect, rape suspect, those kinds of things?

Yes.

All right. Thank you. Any other questions? (No response.)

All right.

Thank you.

Okay. Could I have Ms. Veronica Joyner and the students from her school come up, please. And she is the Chief Administrative Officer and Founder of the Mathematics, Civic and Science Charter School of Philadelphia. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Good afternoon. My name is Veronica Joyner and I'm the President and Founder of Parents United for Better Schools, Inc., a non-profit multi-racial parent advocacy corporation 63 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 based in Germantown. I'm also the President and Chief Administrative Officer of the Mathematics, Civics and Sciences Charter School of Philadelphia, one of the largest charter schools in Philadelphia with a population of 1,000 students. That's actually the largest in the state, one of the largest, and the school is ranked as one of the top ten schools in Philadelphia. Here is a list of documented incidents on Philadelphia subways. For five years I have documented, and here is the information of the incidents that have occurred on the subway. I will also provide you with a list of letters that have been given to former Commissioner Sylvester Johnson calling for more police protection for children on the subway lines. As I said, these documented cases started in 2003. I would like to say that the death of Mr. Conroy at a Philadelphia subway stop has awakened many 64 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Philadelphia citizens to a serious public problem, which started many, many years ago. I personally documented through letters, interview with every media outlet, radio, TV, the criminal attacks of school children and youth riding our subway lines daily for years. I spoke repeatedly and passionately about the serious attack of students attending the Mathematics, Civics and Sciences Charter School. I also spoke about attacks throughout the City on helpless, defenseless children and youth. The subway lines in Philadelphia are in no 16 way safe. The following fact sheet that you're given will sort of outline the problem and the number of attacks, as I said, dating back to 2003, September. The list, which you have, and written letters, there were reports from former Commissioner Johnson, who ordered police officers to patrol the subway stops at Broad and Spring Garden after I was told 65 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 by Captain Korn at the police district that the police officers could not go into the subway because the subway was SEPTA's jurisdiction. I am also accompanied by several students attending the Mathematics, Civics and Sciences Charter School who have been attacked on the subway, one spending a week in the hospital with a concussion as a result of his attack on the subway. The students put the attacks on YouTube and were caught and criminal charges were filed. My plea for help to Councilman Frank Rizzo, who organized a meeting on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 at my school to help resolve the problem, that meeting was attended by Councilman Frank Rizzo, Captain Michael Korn, Philadelphia Police Commissioner, Philadelphia former Superintendent Paul Vallas and the Philadelphia School District, Michael Whelan, who is the Director of Security, and Detective Henderson from the SEPTA 66 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Police Department. I will let you hear from this student. Can you introduce yourself so that everyone can hear you?

State your name for the record.

My name is Roy Barksdale.

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon.

Can you tell him what happened?

After 3 o'clock I was coming home from school. I got on the local subway going northbound, and when the sub was in motion, a group of six kids came up to me, and one of them, he asked me to empty out my pockets. I said no, so he got mad. He started to touch my pockets, so I forced his hand away. And one of his friends punched me in my face, and then -- they was 67 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 recording me with a camera, and I was -- I fought the main person that was talking to me, but they all jumped on me at the same time, and then I fell on the ground. And then they was stomping me and kicking me in my head when I was on the ground. Then afterwards I got up and they -- as soon as the sub got to the North Philadelphia station, they got off the subway and ran upstairs. And a SEPTA police officer came downstairs and he talked to me, and I talked to him, and he told me just to go home. So I went home. I told my parents, and then they took me to the hospital.

How long were you in the hospital?

A week.

With a concussion?

With a concussion.

I'm sorry. May I interrupt? Did he take an incident report? 68 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

No. 3

Did he call an ambulance?

No. 6

Did he call your parents?

No. 9

Did you get the name of the officer?

No. 12

Okay.

And these vicious attacks continue to happen. There is another student -- any of these students can testify to witnessing any attack. Is there anyone that wants to testify? If you've been attacked, please come up. We need to hear from you. (Witness approached witness table.)

Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record.

How are you doing, 69 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 sir? My name is James Jordan. An incident happened two weeks ago. I was attacked at Broad and Olney, on the corner of Broad and Olney. I was approached by at least ten guys. We had a couple words. Next thing you know, I got hit in the face, and a couple minutes after the fact, guys ran away, and a police officer approached me, and she tried to ask me what happened, but I was busy finding -- seeing where I was bleeding from and stuff. And after that, we went home and went to my cousin's house and called my parents. But she didn't take a police report or nothing like that at all.

And this was a SEPTA officer?

A police officer.

A Philadelphia police officer?

Yeah.

I'd like to make the distinction. And they didn't 70 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 take a report?

No. 4

Okay.

And his mother did file charges. She filed charges and she's still waiting for someone to come to the school to get the information.

If I could, sir, if I could ask a more general question. Obviously that was a terrible incident. Generally when you take SEPTA, particularly the subways, do you see SEPTA or Philadelphia police around? Do you see a presence on an average day?

Well, now I do.

When you say "now," how recently have you seen a change?

Throughout the school year, for this school year of '08. But from last year I didn't see as much police officers, SEPTA police in the subway as I do now.

Okay. 71 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Thanks.

Are there any other young people from the school that want to testify? Thank you. Come up and state your name for the record, please. (Witness approached witness table.)

Hello. My name is Bevuon Bobb-Simple (ph), and I was with James Jordan the day that he got attacked, and we were just standing there waiting for the bus and then these boys just came over and started attacking him.

Were they from another school?

Well, some of them went to my school. One of them used to, but most of them went to different schools.

Okay. Just as a general question, as you ride SEPTA -- and, again, I'm going to emphasize, this is everyone's problem, 72 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 not just SEPTA. It's a school problem, it's a police problem, it's a City of Philadelphia problem. But do you ever see other people being robbed or victimized?

Yes.

Generally what happens?

It would just be a group of people just trying to mess with people on the train, and they would just attack them and then they would just all run.

Is that usually, gentlemen, how it goes? (All witnesses nodding head in the affirmative.)

They use the subway stops to do it because there is not a lot of police. The Philadelphia police officers don't want to go under the subway because of the problems with the radios. So the attackers have a free reign of the subways, and they have 73 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 terrorized the subway stops for many years, and they've gotten away with it. So it's become a sport for a gang of boys to get together, get on the train, beat up someone, run from train to train and when the doors open, exit totally. And I've often said I feel like Harriet Tubman after school trying to get my children out of the area safely because of the continued attacks of my students on the subways.

Councilman Greenlee.

Ms. Joyner, if I could just ask you a question. I know maybe some of the other young men want to testify. But you may have heard earlier with Deputy Commissioner Fox we had some discussion -- I don't know if you were here yet or not -- about meeting with the police, meeting with maybe some other schools. I know you talk about the meeting with De La Salle and the changing 74 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 of or alteration of dismissal times, and that has had some success. Was there any in your meetings -- I didn't have a chance to look through all this. Was there any discussion like that, and if there was, was there any positive results?

We had the meeting -- the list I think I gave you we had at my school. There were about 35 people in attendance, and that was last year. We talked about what was called the hot spots and that the weather gets warm and there are more fights between different schools, and our school was classified as one of those hot spots from Broad and Spring Garden to Broad and Olney, that there were continued attacks --

Broad and Olney?

Up to Broad and Olney. And we have our security -- I've had to for nine years place our security 75 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 in the subways to make sure that the children are protected. And I have gone down into the subway. We've had to have our security and our maintenance people to ride the subway to protect our children on the subways.

I just was wondering, was the issue of the alteration of dismissals, did that come up?

Yes.

Was that in any way helpful? Because I think you may have heard, I said that I had noticed that has been a help.

Yes. I've had to work because of attacks from Franklin students on our students because they were at ties. I've had to let my children out much earlier. So the times are -- we get out at 2:52. Franklin High School gets out at 3:10. Parkway gets out at 3:30. And then I usher my children out of the area as quickly as 76 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 possible. It's a violation for them to even remain in the area after school is dismissed.

And I know this isn't a perfect answer, the dismissal, because once they get on the subway, they're dealing with kids from all kind of different schools that get all kind of different times. I understand that. I'm just wondering specifically with that. And where's your school? I'm sorry.

We're located at 447 North Broad Street, right directly across from the School District. And my concern was that we had identified schools where attacks were coming from, CEP and De La Salle, which are both discipline schools. And to resolve it, I believe they started having buses to pick their children up and taking them to the stop so that they could not ride the subways. But the administration knew of the attacks, and if you look at the 77 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 two-page list, you'll see I repeatedly had to meet -- in fact, I ended up inviting the boys to my school and having a luncheon so that the boys could get to know each other as a resolution to try to be proactive. I've also attempted to do the same thing with Franklin and Parkway, and I've not gotten a response from the principals of those schools. And I'm a bit shocked, that we're trying to head off a problem and that neither principal -- and I verbally invited them and gave them letters to meet with me so that we can resolve many of the issues, because we all have children attending schools in the same area, but I find that they're not receptive to that issue.

We might be able to find a way to get them a little more receptive.

That would be very helpful. Is there anyone else before I 78 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 summarize?

And while they're coming up, could I make just more of a statement? And, Ms. Joyner, my guess is you probably have told them this already, but a couple of the incidents that were relayed sounded like it wasn't exactly proper actions by the police officer, whether it's Philly police or SEPTA police, and I know, unfortunately, one young man didn't get names. I think you all know you have to get names, because I would think the Philadelphia police authorities and SEPTA police authorities would not be too happy to hear of that fairly non-response that those officers gave, but obviously if you don't have a name, you can't really tell. And that's not telling on somebody; that's just making a situation better.

And I reiterate on that, but it's commonplace. It's such a norm that these fights occur that they're not even going to get involved. 79 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Well, fights -- I mean, obviously that's a big problem.

Between students.

But I think it was the first young man talked about being hurt quite badly, and to just be told to go home, while he's going home something really -- I mean, I'm not trying to get dramatic, but something really tragic could have happened. So, I mean, that's where I think getting on individual incidents -- the general problem of maybe not enough officers and all, that's related, but it's a little different. But specific incidents like the young man talked about, getting names is really important, because my guess is that officer, whoever he or she may have been, did not act properly according to the guidelines. I'm quite confident.

I agree. And Officer Henderson is an officer that works for SEPTA and his job is to go to 80 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the various schools when these attacks are reported, and he reported to me that they had numerous attacks during that time, but nothing happened other than documenting the complaints. No proactive to try to stop them.

Well, you need proactive, but in his case, they didn't even take a report.

Right. Like I said, it's the norm. It's commonplace that they allow these thugs to take control of the subway lines, and I've said it repeatedly over the five years.

Well, I've said it at a smaller meeting with SEPTA. I do take SEPTA sometimes and a couple times I have taken it around school dismissal time and -- you know, I grew up in Fairmount. I've seen some things. But it was kind of scary. Some of these kids are really out of control. Obviously not your students, but obviously there are students out of 81 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 control. I'm sorry. I think he wants to...

Hello. My name is Darnell --

State your name.

Darnell Carvello. Most of the attacks that I've seen and actually it was not on the Broad Street Line, but actually on the Market-Frankford Line. And personally, I get on the train at 15th Street and I go westbound, and they wait until about after 30th Street, because most of the cops, they'll get off right there. And one incident I was on the train going home one afternoon not feeling too well or whatnot and the cops were on the train at 15th Street. They got off at 30th and some of them got off at 34th, and after 34th Street, a group of boys approached me talking about, Give me all your stuff 82 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 and whatnot. I said, No, I'm not going for that. And between 40th and 52nd Street, I ended up getting into a fight. No SEPTA cop, no nothing. The cops sitting down at the corner of 52nd and Market, but they're sitting in their cars and then they pulled off. So there's nowhere for me really to say anything. When I went home, I told my mom about it and she took me right to the police station, and they filed a report, but I haven't gotten any response back yet.

We're joined, I see, by Councilman Rizzo, who has really worked very hard and organized a meeting to help us. Yes, you've always been helpful. We were talking about the meeting and some of your help with trying to get children protected in the subways. The last meeting we had at our school, there were about 35 attendees at that 83 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 meeting.

I'd like to on the record recognize that Councilman Rizzo has entered the Chambers, and if you want to be recognized, Councilman.

I just want to thank you for bringing this group together, because I think when we work together, we can accomplish a lot. I know when we had some initial incidents, SEPTA was very good, the Police Department was very good. Matter of fact, they provided overtime and did a lot of things. So, again, I'm appealing to the people that can make things happen in this city to do whatever they can to be helpful, because this is important. Lots of nice young men here today, and I just wanted to make sure that I stopped in at least to let you know that I'm listening carefully upstairs.

Thank you, Councilman. 84 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Thanks.

All right. I'll summarize. In summary, I just want to say that there is an urgent need for more police officers and SEPTA officers to patrol the subway stops, particularly after school hours. It is very crucial before there's another death. And I said that five years ago, and I'm very sorry to report that that has occurred, and I'm pleading that something be done before there's another death in the City. Thank you.

Thank you. And before you young men leave, I want you to know something, that you put up with a lot of things during the course of a day, during the course of growing up, and one of them should not be a rite of passage, trial through fire on our mass transportation system. You should be worrying being math, science, recreation and, to a lesser extent, your female 85 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 friends that teenagers should be worried about, not how do I survive this SEPTA trip. And I'm not pointing at SEPTA. I'm talking about in our communities, there is a problem. Mayor Nutter has talked about the fact that we have to take ownership and be responsible in our communities as well, and we're going to do whatever it takes to bring the appropriate parties together and work together to solve this problem. We're not -- this is not about pointing fingers. This is about highlighting the problem. And, again, when I talk about doing a security audit of what's going on, you know more about what's going on on a daily basis than all of the people in this room, because you live it every day, and we're listening to you.

Thank you. We appreciate that. Thank you.

Thank you very much. 86 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Just on the record, in order of presentation, we usurp that process, but City Controller Butkovitz has submitted written testimony and, if he comes back, will be allowed to come in, but we're going to move along for purposes of time and ask SEPTA to come up. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you. Good afternoon. State your name for the record, please.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. My name is James Jordan. I'm the Assistant General Manger for Public and Operational Safety at SEPTA. MR. DiCICCO: Christian DiCicco, City Representative, SEPTA Board member.

On behalf of SEPTA, I'd like to express our appreciation for this Committee's invitation to us to appear and address this critically important issue of public 87 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 safety and safety on our system. I would echo and further emphasize what this Committee has heard from Commissioner Ramsey and others, that SEPTA is in a very close and productive and cooperative relationship with the City of Philadelphia police, other City agencies, the School District and the School District security forces and other entities, including Center City District, University of Pennsylvania and Temple. We have found that to be a very productive relationship. We agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that this is a problem that could only be solved if all of us work together to address it. One of the major challenges we face is that while I can submit to you and have submitted to you numbers and can give you more breakdowns and we can see that the number of serious crimes is rather low, that's not even half the battle, because if people do not feel 88 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 safe on our system, then we have a lot of work to do. And people do not feel safe. The tragic murder that occurred a couple of weeks ago touched such a nerve in this city because people are, quite simply, sick and tired of especially the behavior of a lot of school children after school dismissal. Most of the time that is simply obnoxious or disruptive behavior, but now we see the tragic consequences of that behavior. And, again, we have been working with City of Philadelphia police, with Commissioner Ramsey, and we'll continue to do so. Let me mention one issue that has come up that is actually more of a benefit. The question has been raised. This year we started a program for selling weekly passes to the School District, which distributes them to qualifying school children. We see no 24 evidence whatsoever that would link the use of these passes with the crime we're 89 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 seeing in the disruptive behavior on the system. That existed years before these passes. We do not see any patterns especially of people using the passes to roam the system. The incidents we've seen, crimes or other incidents, are school children riding the system going from school towards their home and engaging in criminal or disruptive behavior. The good news is that with the institution of the school pass program, attendance at City schools has increased between four and six percent, which we find is a great benefit. Again, because making people feel safe is important to us, we have increased our police presence, as I believe one of the students mentioned. This started last year, but certainly in the last month we have further increased our presence on the system, as has Commissioner Ramsey, and we've seen extraordinarily positive feedback from 90 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the public on that issue. That's even in a sense where with the homicide and with another highly publicized incident, SEPTA police were immediately on the scene and did make arrests. So the issue is not just are there not enough police out there. In fact, in the homicidal attack, it happened in view of a police officer. That's how brazen that incident was. I assume the kids didn't see the officer since he was inside the subway station, but he saw them and responded immediately. In addition to our increased staffing, which we will be monitoring closely -- and Mr. DiCicco and the Board will be assessing after the end of the school year as to what direction we want to take to maximize our presence on the systems -- we're also investing over a hundred million dollars in our Smart Stations program. That is more than just cameras. It puts in state-of-the-art communications, including call boxes, 91 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 intercoms, public address systems and other alarm systems. That is a large project.

It's been underway for quite some time. We will see the completion of the first phase of stations early next 7 year and, by 2011, the completion on the 8 remaining stations in our system. 9 I'd be more than happy to 10 either myself or with my colleagues here 11 reply or attempt to address any questions 12 the Committee might have. 13

Mr. DiCicco, 14 did you want to -- 15 MR. DiCICCO: Yes. 16

State your 17 name for the record, please. 18 MR. DiCICCO: Again, Christian 19 DiCicco, City Representative, SEPTA Board 20 member. 21 I, too, would like to thank you for the opportunity to offer my remarks with respect to making sure our underground transit system is more secure. I would like to read into the 92 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 record, if it's okay, a summary of the statement that I had presented at the SEPTA capital budget hearing approximately two weeks ago. Philadelphia subways and underground stations have come a long way in the past few decades. Skyrocketing gas prices have made our public transportation system more important than ever. SEPTA cannot afford to lose the public's confidence, which is why we must act immediately to put an end to recent violent episodes in our system. I have asked SEPTA staff to develop a plan, and it appears from the testimony today and working closely with Mr. Jordan and SEPTA that they are working towards implementing the following security upgrades as soon as possible, while also researching and pursuing other best practices to guarantee a safe and secure public transit system. Specifically, I have asked the 93 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 staff to increase the police presence on our vehicles and at our subway stations to create a more visible police presence and to discourage any further violent incidents. Increasing police overtime will allow SEPTA to strengthen police patrols in the short term while pursuing long-term solutions. Police overtime should be increased until the end of the school year in June, at which point SEPTA and its Board will assess its effects and consider a more permanent solution. SEPTA currently has a long-term plan to implement security cameras in underground stations, but the timeline for that plan must be accelerated. I urge SEPTA to install cameras in every subway station within the next 18 months, and we should pursue increased federal homeland security funds and call upon our state legislators to help finance this project. It is perfectly logical that 94 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 any attempt to make Philadelphia more secure from terrorist attacks should start with securing our underground systems, especially in light of the attacks on rail systems in London and Madrid in the past five years. Installing these cameras will serve two purposes and will be an extremely effective use of this funding. We have a force of approximately 250 transit police that does an excellent job in protecting our riders, but we have hundreds of thousands of commuters and we must add more officers to our force. I have asked staff to look to hire 50 new officers over the next two years while constantly reassessing our security needs. Again, I'd like to thank you, and I commend you, the Philadelphia Police Department, this Committee, SEPTA Police and staff on its joint efforts to alleviate our concerned riders problems. Thank you. 95 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Thank you very much. Councilman Greenlee.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, I guess the first question should be with Mr. DiCicco. You talk about the funding. How receptive has the Board been to those kinds of -- I know you've been for a while a very good advocate for the City, but obviously we know how the Board is set up, so I won't get into detail, but we know what I'm talking about. MR. DiCICCO: I must say that I am extremely happy with the staff's response, as well as my fellow colleagues, the Board members, understanding the need for a secure system. This is beyond the Philadelphia problem. This is a regional problem, and they understand it as well.

Great. Well, that's certainly good to hear. 96 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Mr. Jordan, a couple questions. First, on that Smart Station initiative, are you doing the stations according to incidents? Like, in other words, are the ones that have the most problems being done first?

Yes, sir. The first phase targeted the highest priority stations from a safety and security standpoint.

And I don't know if you can answer this or somebody else here. We just heard the testimony of the students, and, quite frankly, I have heard those kind of things before. That's not the only thing. And I'm not saying it's typical and all that, but I have heard some concern that sometimes -- and it might be -- that the SEPTA police, they see a lot of incidents and maybe they're -- maybe callous isn't the right word, but like the one kid that talked there -- desensitized is probably a better word, 97 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Mr. Chairman. I mean, clearly, it seemed to me if that young man was telling it truthfully -- and I don't have any doubt that he was -- there should have been more than just told to go home; am I right?

I will guarantee you his memory is not accurate. I don't mean to any way impugn his honor. It could not have happened that way. What we do see -- and I will assure you, our officers are very sensitive. Under the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, if a police officer does not witness a misdemeanor being committed and the witness does not wish to pursue charges, there is nothing that officer can do other than file an incident report with the SEPTA Police, and we see that. And I believe one of the gentlemen who was talking basically said he told the Philadelphia police officer he didn't want to talk about it. 98 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Now, that's going to generate an incident report, but there is nothing that the officers can do. We also see a pattern, as I think a couple of the young men mentioned, where the students themselves don't want to prosecute. Very often they know or can find out who did it. They go home and their parents said, You're going with me to the police station, we're going to file a report. Sadly, the "don't snitch" mentality works in the subways as well as above ground, just witness the length of time it took Philadelphia Homicide Division to make the subsequent arrest in the Conroy homicide. Having said that, we are very determined to be more aggressive. Another part of the problem we deal with is, a lot of the objectional behavior is not criminal. The school kids get on the system, they're very loud, they might play fight, they might mouth, make aggressive comments. They 99 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 might do other things that do not rise to the level of criminal behavior. If, on the other hand, they are violating ordinances, such as by lighting up a cigarette, we will give them citations. We also will escort them out of a building or off a station. But it goes to the heart of the feeling of safety. People do not feel safe when they are on a subway or a bus, and all the sudden a couple of dozen very energetic, rowdy teenagers get on and are talking very loudly and maybe playing music, even if their behavior is completely lawful, and that's a serious problem that -- and that's simply our riders. Our personnel, our bus operators, our subway operators, our crews, SEPTA personnel are subject to the same problems, including a tragic increase in assaults on bus operators on our system, which we are also aggressively trying to address.

I was 100 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 going to ask about buses. We talked mostly about subways, which I think are probably where the bulk of the incidents are, but have there been any increase in incidents on buses? And if they are, are they kind of around the same time? Is it often times school related?

The complaints we see are of disruptive behavior. Because of the way our schedule works and dovetails with the school schedule, very often the buses are carrying a busload of kids from the same school, at least until they get to the transportation center or subway stop. So we don't have these inter-school or inter-neighborhood rivalries. We don't have as many members of the general public riding those buses in that 2:00 to 3:30 or so window. We do get a lot of customer complaints and a lot of complaints from our operators. Among the other initiatives we have started is a program to put multiple cameras on our buses. The pilot program, 101 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 I can tell you, is a dramatic success. We caught a young man about completely 4 disrupting the bus, escorted him off. 5 His mother was very upset. We invited 6 her down to look at the film, and suffice 7 it to say, one, I think that young man 8 had some problems when she got home, 9 because she was shocked. Two, the word 10 went out immediately throughout that 11 school that SEPTA now had cameras on 12 their buses, and the next day on the pilot you would have thought you were in Sunday school the way the children sat with their arms together and hands together. But for some reason, we are seeing more criminal behavior in the subway and nearby areas, like the concourse, but also we see more fear. The one other inherent problem we have is, a lot of people do not feel as safe underground. Psychologically you do not feel you have the same options.

You don't 102 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 see daylight out there.

We and the City most especially emphasize and put a lot of effort into cleaning, lighting, access, but the reality is, people are more fearful, and for reasons I'm not sure -- well, actually, it's probably because you can exit the subway system at any stop. Because, again, as I think this Committee knows, to the extent there is a typical pattern, it is a group of teenagers in an apparently spontaneous act surrounding someone, trying to frighten them, striking them, trying to steal a cell phone or electronic gadget, or sometimes it's been over a bag of French fries or something as small as that. It's over in a matter of seconds and then they can either get off the train or get onto the next train. We do believe our cameras will help greatly on that issue, but the one thing we know works is putting more cops in uniform out there, and we have put 103 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 more out, Commissioner Ramsey has put more out, and we are seeing the dramatic effect on people's feeling of safety, I would say.

I just have one more question. Just one more, if I could. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. We talked a lot here about communication and you talked about communicating and interacting with the School District. Have there been situations where, say, one particular school -- and I know it might not all be public schools -- where you hear that there's a lot of incidents of such-and-such high school that you've gone to that school or you've gone to the School District and said, Look, we got a particular problem here?

We've done that quite a lot, and as I said, we do work very closely with the Security Department of the School District. There are some schools that are more of a problem. The 104 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 School District has been very helpful in their response, for example, in keeping the school kids who are assigned to disciplinary schools off of our system as much as possible. A lot of the problems Ms. Joyner was talking about were related to a disciplinary school, and went away when the School District changed its approach there. Part of the problem is that we have a big system, stations on the 13 Broad Street Line, I think 32 on the 14 Market-Frankford Line, covering a lot of 15 miles of territory, and things can happen 16 anywhere along that line. We want, for 17 example, our officers to patrol both the 18 cars and the stations, and as one of the 19 young men described, these kids will wait 20 until there's not a cop around that they 21 can see or they will wait until there's 22 not a camera around and do this quick 30-second strike and then try to leave. It's very hard to police against that, especially because so often there seems 105 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 to be no motive other than --

Just to mess with somebody.

It's a game for some of these kids. And you know how to catch robbers by, as Willie Sutton says, going where the money is, but this type of behavior is very difficult to police, and it's another factor in creating the sense of unease that does exist among our customers and our citizens.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Let me ask a few questions. What was SEPTA's operating budget '07?

A little under a billion dollars a year. I think it was maybe 990 million, 995 million. It's a lot of money.

What 106 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 percentage of that budget is dedicated to security and in specific --

Specifically, the police --

And in specific, your SEPTA Police?

The SEPTA Police Department budget for the last couple of years has been about $14 million. Now, we obviously spend other money, including capital funds, on security, for example, the hundred million dollar Smart Stations project, but in terms of the annual operating budget, it's roughly $14 million against an overall budget of $1 billion.

And that's '07?

That would be the rough numbers for FY07. Same rough numbers for Fiscal Year '08.

And your percentage dedicated toward security is?

Well, dedicated to 107 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the Police Department would be million against 1 billion. I'm not sure what the percentage is.

How many 6 officers does that represent? 7

Two hundred 8 forty-eight sworn officers. 9

And do you 10 have unfilled positions? 11

At any given time, 12 we will, because we have an attrition 13 rate of maybe five to six percent. We 14 adjust for that by increased use of overtime. So that we do not have unfilled deployment.

So you have not had over the last three years unfilled positions for officers?

No; we could. Again, when we have vacancy -- well, let me put it this way: We are tied to the schedule of the Philadelphia Police Academy. Up until recently, they had seen some reduction in the number of 108 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 classes they were holding. Therefore, we had fewer slots we could put candidates in.

For everyone's edification, your officers are trained at our facilities and are trained just like regular police officers, correct?

Yes, sir. And we meet the same standards for law enforcement and we are accredited by the Pennsylvania Police Chief's Association.

What is your level in '06-'07 for positions for officers? What was that level, funded level?

It's been 248 for quite some time.

And you're saying to me over those three years, you haven't had vacancies?

No. I'm saying --

What were the vacancy rate levels of unfilled 109 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 positions over those three years?

I could track that. We've actually had sometimes when we were over that allotment because we were able to create a large class, but I would say just in terms of vacancies, the most I have ever seen, I think, is ten or less.

I would suggest that that number is off, but I'm going to give you the benefit of your memory.

When I say "vacancy," that would be vacancies -- we also have officers who may be out on sick leave, long-term disability. They may be in training. They have vacation schedules. But in terms of unfilled positions, that is driven by a lengthy selection process and by the scheduling at the Police Academy.

I'm going to try this one again. What is this year's funded level of positions for officers 110 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 for SEPTA?

The same, 248 officers.

I would like you to go back and check the number of funded positions versus filled positions for the last three years.

Sure.

Secondly, what is your turnover ratio by way of loss of officers?

Again, I would defer to the Chief, but my sense is about five to six or seven percent a year. It can -- sometimes it's very little; sometimes it can be higher. A lot of it will depend on factors outside of our control, such as whether suburban townships are hiring. They typically pay higher salaries.

How much higher?

It can be significantly higher for a much easier 111 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 job.

Is it $6,000 difference between City police officers and SEPTA police?

I believe that's right, yes, sir, for beginning. That gap narrows a little bit, but it's always less than a comparable Philadelphia police officer.

What is the number of deployed officers on the 13 stations on the Broad Street Line on peak 14 hours that were suggested by the Police 15 Department, which I believe were 3:00 to 16 6:00? 17

We look at it 18 more, I think, as 2:00 to 5:00, but 19 during that period, we are now putting 20 approximately 90 officers out on both the 21 Broad Street and the Market-Frankford 22 Line, supplemented by up to ten plainclothes undercover officers. That is a roughly --

As of when? 112 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

That is as of two weeks ago. Even before then we had increased our staffing during that period.

So what was that staffing increase and what was the number?

The basic staffing plan calls for about 50 officers to be out on the two subway systems during that time, 50 to 60. We've increased that by 50 percent.

As of when?

As of approximately two weeks ago.

That's good news. There was a problem with training of officers based on availability of class timing with the City's Police Department?

I wouldn't call it a problem. We cannot send officers to the Academy when the Academy is not 113 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 holding their six-month training course and --

When was your last graduating class?

That was about a month ago. We graduated four officers. I'm not sure. I think we are looking to put about or in the next class, 10 which we're hoping the Academy will start 11 this summer. 12

And what was the time frame between that last graduating class, the four, and the one before that?

Again, I would defer to the Chief. (Witness approached witness table.)

This is Richard Evans, Chief of the SEPTA Police Department.

We put the four into the Academy, the ones that have just graduated, about a week before the 114 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 previous class graduated from the Academy.

I'm confused. You have four that graduated a week ago.

We have four that graduated at the beginning of April, yes.

And before that there were?

Before that, I believe we graduated nine officers from the Police Academy.

How long ago?

That was about a week after we put these folks in --

To translate, about six months earlier.

Six, seven months earlier.

So you regularly have been able to access the training?

For the most part, 115 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 yeah. We're not -- the Academy is not always ready when we're ready, but they may be a month later than we'd like to start, but we do get our people in.

You stated SEPTA's overall operating budget in '07 was?

Roughly $1 billion.

And it is now?

It's roughly the same.

And you do not have a deficit, correct?

No. That's our operating budget and we are required by state law -- we're forbidden by state law from incurring a deficit.

I'm asking these questions for a reason, that as I hear what's going on, there's a couple of things that pop out at me. One, there is a lack of coordination. I heard that we 116 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 just started meeting with the Philadelphia Police Department -- wait a minute -- and that there was a period of at least one school year that we started working with the School Board to adjust release times for students. I think that current events has called for us to have a regular coordinating meeting, that it shouldn't be happenstance, that it should be a regular part of whether it's your Board's report or your operating staff meeting's agenda that have we coordinated in reference to security for the following hot spots. And I'd like to suggest humbly that that be a part of your operation. When I see you build something, you do it with precision, and some things happen, you get over delays, but pretty much I've watched you do the El and you've done that with a military preciseness. But when it comes to the coordination of our safety, that's kind 117 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 of a little bit murky and foggy to me, and what I am challenging you to do is to kind of take some of that on-time train arrival coordination and apply it to the safety factor. I asked the question, has there been an independent security audit. I'm going to ask that question to you now.

Not independent, but the SEPTA Police do security audits of all of our stations and all of our facilities. We had police commanders on -- involved in the planning of the Smart Stations project, advising where to mount cameras, where to do things to assure maximum coverage. So not independent, but we do the kinds of evaluations you were talking about internally. Externally the evaluations have been more -- have been in the area of homeland security and terrorism.

It has been my experience that we tend to overlook 118 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 the obvious when it comes to ourselves, and we definitely overlook the expenses when it comes to our budget. So what I am suggesting to you, that an independent security audit be conducted that kind of coordinates a number of aspects, whether it's Public Property, because some of the property is owned by the City of Philadelphia, whether it is SEPTA, the operating entity, whether it is of the school system, who actually let's our children out on your system to get from home, school and back. But somebody needs to kind of take a step back, look at the big picture and tell us where our holes, vulnerabilities, dark spots are. And I'm going to ask you that because you don't have a deficit and I'm going to challenge you kind of to apply some of those additional resources that you've gotten from the state and apply them to the safe operation of the system. I'm going to further say that when it comes to Smart Stations -- and 119 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 you kind of alluded to the fact that you're picking -- what is the timetable for the completion of them and what can the public look for to a smart, safe station and where and when?

I said the first phase for stations are scheduled to be 9 completed by early next year. What the 10 public will see are a large number of 11 cameras, over a thousand cameras 12 throughout the system. They will see -- 13 they will hear public address systems. 14 They will see more call box systems. 15 They may not see, but there will be 16 intercom systems that the cashiers have. 17 They will have better lighting and better 18 signage. Those are the -- 19

Can you stop 20 there? Signage, to what degree does 21 digital signs play in the security role and what is a part of that kind of --

It's valuable. We are enhancing our ability and we'll continue to do so to communicate through 120 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 either the electronic signage or the public address system. We have that capacity to a certain extent on the rail side. We are implementing it on the subway side. We have certain features of it on the bus side, but that is definitely an area we are developing. A lot of that communication is schedule information, service reliability, service disruption, but it would also give us the capacity -- I mean, to give you, again, one example, during our test program on Smart Stations, we had a test group who was monitoring the station, monitoring the cameras, saw a young man running up a descending escalator. We flipped the switch for the PA system and from 1234 Market told him to stop horsing around on the escalator. You would have thought he had a heart attack. All the sudden this voice is coming out of the sky. So that kind of capacity is what riders won't see and is part of the 121 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 complexity and cost, is the video can be fed back to our Control Center and our Police Control Center at 1234 Market so we can aggressively actively monitor situations, follow up, radio information to police approaching the scene. So there will be pieces that the public won't see, but they will see a lot.

Let me just again for the record, because I'm a little dense. By the end of next year, we will have Broad and Olney, Broad and Girard completed as a Smart Station and also I'd like to say a safe station; is that correct? (Witness approached witness table.)

I'm Jeff Knueppel, Chief Engineer for SEPTA. At the end of this calendar year, we'll be wrapping up the construction on the first 21 stations, and what we'll be doing even today is, we're starting to put the cameras and 122 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 wire them into the digital recorders in the communications rooms in the stations, so that while we have to wait until the end of this calendar year for all the construction to be done, we're putting what we can in service as soon as we can.

So the stations that have been mentioned will be completed by the end of this calendar year?

Right, but we might even have cameras in service earlier. As the cameras are mounted by the contractors, we will place them in service.

May I press you to ask one other question? How are you safeguarding SEPTA bus operators and the riders there?

We think the cameras on the buses will be the single most valuable thing to protect our operators and our riders. We have over 1,100 buses that cover a five-county 123 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 area. That presents an obvious challenge in policing, especially because -- the SEPTA Police Department is staffed and designed to patrol the two subway systems.

Have you ever had an instance where your operators were victims of crime?

Yes.

How often does that happen?

Again, I can get you statistics. It has been with disturbing frequency over the last two or three years. I am aware of at least a half a dozen fairly potentially serious assaults a year against operators.

Have there been ever hijackings of bus drivers?

Not to my knowledge anywhere in the country. It may have happened, but --

So you wouldn't know of a situation where a bus 124 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 driver was kidnapped, robbed at gunpoint and his life was threatened?

I am aware of situations where bus operators were robbed at gunpoint. I would defer to the police or the department -- I don't remember the kidnapping piece, but we do have gunpoint robberies that have happened also on our rail system.

I would suggest to you that it has happened, and I won't bring the guy forward. You lost a great operator due to it. I'm hoping that these cameras come on board so that you don't lose any more. And one of the things that stuck in my mind when I ran for this office was, when I went to TWU and this former TWU worker -- because he couldn't come back to work. It was traumatic. He talked about a tale of being kidnapped and taken off of a route, robbed and then his life was threatened. And other than the fact that God was with him that moment, he was going to leave 125 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 here. So these cameras on these buses are an essential safety, not only for the riders, but for your own operators, and I would just leave it at that. All right?

All right. I can, unfortunately, assure you it is inherently dangerous out there. We had another operator shot just as he was driving his bus, apparently drove it into a free fire zone. He was seriously wounded. Fortunately, he is back at work. But there is no question that there are dangers out there, which is why we are -- we are also encouraging the State Legislature to increase the criminal penalties for any assault on a transit employee, making that an aggravated assault offense. And we're working closely with --

We would support that.

Absolutely. 126 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Absolutely support that.

-- with the unions, including TWU 234, on that as well. So we agree there is a problem. We are very concerned about it and we are doing what we can. I would also say we work closely with Philadelphia Police in responding to any threat on our bus system. As a general rule, they're going to be closer than we are if the incident happens in Philadelphia. So they typically would be the responding law enforcement agency on the bus side.

I'm going to turn it over to Councilman Greenlee, but I have one last question. Your officers do not have the ability to investigate other than -- what are their limits?

They have full -- our officers have full law enforcement powers on the transit system or in areas 127 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 where there's a relationship to transit. So that if it happens on the system, if it happens on the system and somebody is running away from it, we have all of the powers of a Philadelphia police officer. That jurisdiction covers all of the five counties we operate in, so that we can make the same arrest if we happen to be in Delaware County at the 69th Street Station, but we -- and to address an issue that I believe actually Commissioner Timoney looked at briefly when he was Commissioner about consolidating the departments. We are created under a different state law. We have five-county jurisdiction. We don't see a need -- and I don't think Commissioner Ramsey does either -- to merge the two departments. What is needed -- and, again, I want to correct any misimpression that's been there. We need to continue working closely with Philadelphia Police, with the School Board. We do meet regularly. 128 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 This isn't something that just started. This has been going on for years. But I do like your suggestion that we create a standing group to have a conversation on -- I think there are informally that sort of thing, but I agree with you that that's a good next step.

Well, as Chairman of the Transportation Committee -- and I'm going to deputize my Vice-Chair -- that we would be willing, more than willing, to participate in any task force and make sure that we do our share to encourage a little tougher laws. If we have to advocate to the state level, we'll do it. We have a mutual issue here and that mutual concern about the ridership and citizens of Philadelphia, and we want to work with you. Councilman Greenlee.

I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. If I could just address one other point before I forget, because 129 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 Mr. Butkovitz had to leave. He is conducting an independent audit of SEPTA Police. In fact, we are scheduled to meet either today or tomorrow with an outside consulting group that he has retained to assist him in the audit. That may -- and it may be that he can shape that audit to include the issues we've heard today about school-related violence, school-related problems, the role of the Philadelphia Police Department, the role of the School District. I'll certainly raise that with him, but that at least a part of what you are recommending is underway as we speak and we are cooperating to the best of our ability with the Controller on that.

Very good.

Thank you.

Thank you. Just one quick question, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. First of all, I do recognize -- I think we both 130 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 do -- that SEPTA is trying to address this problem. We're not in any way trying to say you're not. But obviously there's always more that could be done. On the camera issue -- and I don't think you addressed this. I apologize if this was already asked. Will these cameras be prominent? Is it clear they're going to be whether it's on the buses or whatever? They're not hidden cameras, if you will?

No. They are overt cameras. And I believe this came up in another meeting that you and I and the Chairman were at. We will look to see if we need to make them even more overt, but from our pilot, these school kids don't have any trouble spotting them and trying to deface them. But we are not using covert cameras.

But I'm thinking even on the buses too, because that makes the passengers -- the majority of passengers that don't want a problem 131 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 and even the possible perpetrator of a problem, if they know they're there, obviously they're going to be less likely, we hope.

We will also be putting up signs saying, You're on TV.

Can't do much more than that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

Are there any other witnesses that are here? School District, please come up. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record.

Good afternoon. I'm Greg Patton with the School District of Philadelphia. 132 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

My name is Michael Whalen. I'm a commander affiliated with the Office of School Climate and Safety, the Philadelphia School District.

Okay. Please submit your testimony. Do you have written testimony?

Yes.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Chairman Jones and members of the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities. My name is Greg Patton and I'm with the School District of Philadelphia and I am the Family Support Coordinator. I am here today to give testimony on Resolution 080396 and to tell you how the School District of Philadelphia partners with SEPTA to ensure the well-being of school children as well as increase safety to all SEPTA riders. Each day approximately 50,000 students ride SEPTA for the purpose of 133 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 traveling to or from school. The primary safety while students or any rider are on SEPTA is provided by SEPTA Police. The Philadelphia School District and SEPTA, however, have a shared interest in keeping the children of Philadelphia and all SEPTA riders safe. There are two main programs run by the School District of Philadelphia that operate with substantial support from SEPTA. The first is the truancy bus. In an effort to keep kids in schools and off the streets during the school day, SEPTA provides the District with the use of a bus and additional manpower to transport kids who are picked up during the truancy sweeps. Once on the bus, all of the students are taken to a truancy center and their parent or guardian is notified. The truancy bus is used as part of an overall strategy to combat truancy and accounts for 4,000 students picked up annually. Another initiative that the 134 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 District runs with the support of SEPTA is known as Safe Corridors. This effort, which also includes partners in the business community, the neighborhoods and the Philadelphia Police Department, is designed to provide additional support at designated locations as students travel to and from school. The program has increased -- provides increased police support along the corridors, as well as safe havens along those frequently traveled routes. Additionally, Safe Corridors allows for information exchange between the School District and its partners, including SEPTA. For example, if the District learns that there could be an altercation after school, we alert SEPTA school officials and our other partners so that appropriate support can be provided and that the situation can be properly handled. SEPTA is an important partner in the School District's effort to keep kids safe not only while they are in 135 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 school, but also as they travel to and from school. Thank you for allowing me to testify here today, and I would be happy to answer any questions from the Committee at this time.

Thank you. We'll hear your testimony before we answer questions.

That represented both of us.

Okay. Is there anyone else? Are you part of -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I am. I'm just their escort now.

Okay. All right. You used to work here?

Another City Council employee make good. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Whalen is here to help with support questions.

Thank you 136 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 for your testimony. In general, what do you see by way -- I'll ask it differently. How do you interact with SEPTA, the City's Police Department currently?

Currently, I coordinate with ten law enforcement agencies to work on the safe travel to school during the truancy hours, which is from 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. We start the year with an annual meeting with all ten law enforcement agencies together to plan how we're going to approach known hot spots, how we'll respond to new hot spots, because our kids are very good. Once they see that uniform presence, they move it. So we actually have a process where we can always keep up with the students.

To what degree do you regularly meet with SEPTA and the Philadelphia Police?

Your Philadelphia Police divisional inspectors are 137 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 required, in accordance with Deputy Commissioner Fox, to have monthly meetings with their principals, and as part of those meetings are ourselves, Philadelphia School District, SEPTA, and if there's any local universities within the close area to the schools, they participate as well. In addition, the regional superintendents of schools has monthly meetings that all parties participate in as well. Now, also we have daily communications with the proper commanders on the Frankford-Market Line as well as the Broad Street Line. We also have our relationship with the individual captains. If we get intelligence or vice versa, we communicate on a daily basis and we work together. I mean, obviously the Philadelphia School District could not do this alone without the support obviously of Philadelphia Police and SEPTA. It wouldn't be accomplished in the high regard that it is. 138 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Generally, without naming schools, how many hot spot schools along SEPTA's Broad Street Line and/or elevated line are we talking about?

On the Broad Street Line, we're talking approximately a half dozen, and it fluctuates back and forth up the line. On the El, we have four majors and, again, it's a transit system and the trouble transits up and down the system.

To what degree do you coordinate dismissal times?

That would be something that's worked out between the individual captain, ourselves and the principal. For instance, if we have a situation where today there's certain locations we think there's going to be problems, we might go to, say, your school if you were the principal and ask you to do dismiss 15 to 20 minutes earlier. Like Ms. Joyner stated earlier 139 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 with De La Salle, they do on a daily basis change the schedule of the different schools to alleviate certain problems, but usually we do it on a daily basis. Most schools dismiss between, say, quarter to 3:00 and quarter after 3:00 on a daily basis, unless there's an early dismissal day, such as tomorrow, where most of the students will get out at o'clock. 12

In your opinion, are these groups of young people organized gangs or just kids that are misguided?

I think some of these kids like to think they are gangs, but they're really not. What we find normally is that the community issues become the school issues. If there's an issue in the community -- it could be over a girlfriend -- they bring it into the school, or vice versa, if the school has a problem, they take it back into the community. But I don't find it to be as 140 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 much organized as people would give it credence to be.

To what degree is the motivation robbery versus juvenile delinquency per se?

I believe that delinquency is probably 60 percent, but there is a criminal element out there. There's a crime of opportunity. The doors are closed, the train is going to be underground, and 30 seconds that door is going to open, and there are six doors on each train. So we grab it, we run. So I believe 60 percent is just roughhousing and delinquency, but 40 I believe is robbery.

What are your recommendations for us as a municipality and any coordinating body that we might have? If you had three pointers, what would they be?

I haven't talked to my superiors, so I'm going to give you basically what I think is most important. 141 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 The schools need more support. We need more social services coming into, working with the community that those children come from. We have them for a good part of the day, but they wreak havoc in our buildings as well. So the social supports and the parents would be wonderful. Baltimore had a daytime curfew and it worked wonders.

I don't mean to interrupt you. To what degree is curfew an issue in this and what degree is truancy an issue in this?

Truancy is probably one of the biggest issues. Unfortunately, we have some laws on the books that haven't been enforced. We have some that need to be strengthened. Our retail merchandise people are under the understanding you don't serve children during the day. People build stores in front of a school for the purpose of getting rich. In my career 142 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 we've always asked our corner stores to stop serving our children when the school bell rings, and they have cooperated. The big franchises, your Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, Burger King, they're not hearing us. So if you go out in any neighborhood and you see a child on the way to school late, you can almost bet a week's salary they're carrying a little black bag of chips, potato chips, a Dunkin Donut or McDonald's bag. So they're already late for school and they make another half hour stop to be later. The daytime curfew would give the truancy initiative more teeth. Right now we are working on the compulsory attendance law in Philadelphia. There is no law against truancy, but because of the state law compulsory attendance, we can stop a pedestrian that looks of school age and take them in for truancy. So I think we need a truancy ordinance or a daytime curfew or some variation of 143 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 both.

I'm a little confused, but I'm sure the Administration will give me clarity on that some day. I'm going to put a pin in that one as a possible suggestion to reinforcement what laws are on the books. But I want to thank you, and I recognize the hard work that you do. For the record, all of the crimes that are committed on SEPTA are not done by our young people.

Absolutely not.

I want to say that again. All of the crimes that are on mass transportation are not done by young people, but obviously they've taken center stage by way of some of the theatrical performances with the videos and things like that. We're going to pay attention to that. And I want to thank you, and if there's no other comments -- you have a question. I'm sorry. 144 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Just a couple.

Let me just make one comment also. Over 90 percent of our students are wonderful young people who are trying to get an education, but we do have a percentage of students that are troubled, and we're doing the best we can.

No. I understand. It's a difficult job. I wouldn't want it, sir. Trust me. Just a couple of quick questions. First, on your statement, Mr. Patton, about there are no laws on truancy, you threw me off there. I didn't realize there wasn't anything. Now, if a kid doesn't show up to school -- because I know Judge Summers is well known for bringing these kids in and scaring them three-quarters to death. There must be something.

The compulsory education law from ages 8 to 17 requires 145 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 every Pennsylvania (unintelligible) to be in an educational program. We use that that if you're 12, 15, out of school, 5 we can stop you for truancy. 6 Now, in the Family Courts, 7 again, they are using the compulsory 8 attendance law, and they've done some 9 fantastic things, anything from community 10 service, fines, whatever. But in 11 Philadelphia County, we don't have what 12 Upper Darby has. We don't even have what 13 Cheltenham has. 14

I think 15 we'll want to talk to you about what 16 those other counties have and what we can do, because obviously anything we can add, we'd certainly be more than willing to do that. And I certainly agree with the Chairman when he says that obviously not all the perpetrators by far are school students and certainly public school students. But I was wondering, do you keep any kind of record in your communication with SEPTA and the police 146 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 both perpetrators and victims that are students? Do you have anything like that?

Yes, we do.

We'd have to get you that information. We have a statistical unit. I'd have to go through my Chief, and obviously we would be more than glad to get you that information.

I think that might give us a lot of insight as to a little more detail about what's going on, who is committing the crime and who the victims often are.

Because the perception obviously is -- I don't have to tell you guys this -- that public schools get blamed for a lot of things. You know that better than I do. And I'd like to know. And also the victim thing, because I would think a lot of the victims are public school students also. Obviously we saw a few today, but...

That's correct. 147 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

One, I guess, last question. You talked about with the Chairman the problem schools, the half dozen, I think you said, at one time it could be. What kind of action is taken when some of these schools are identified? What communication is there with the principal? If you know, what does the principal then do?

Well, obviously we'd reach out to the principal, and if we know who some of the students are involved, the principal will bring them in, talk to them. If we feel it's deeper than -- it's a more serious issue, we'll bring in PAAN and Twist obviously, and we would notify Philadelphia Police Intelligence Unit too as well to see, as you spoke earlier about organized issues, to see if it would be on that level. But what we try to do is get these students not only the students from that particular school, but any students from any other schools, we'll notify 148 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 those schools as well, and then we'll monitor it from there. But we try to get them in, get the intelligence information, and obviously we communicate that with Philadelphia Police and SEPTA as well.

And obviously when Ms. Joyner was here, she talked about trying to communicate with a couple schools. And, again, I didn't hear that conversation between those schools, so I'm just going by what she said. Obviously the School District encourages those kind of conversations. So in this case, Franklin -- I forget the other school -- Parkway maybe, you want that communication obviously, right?

Well, Ms. Joyner made a great point. What we do is, if there's going to be a problem or expected problem, we'll have administrators from both schools come to that location, because now the students better -- we better identify with the students if the 149 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 administrators from the schools are at that location, and hopefully that prevents an incident. I mean, obviously what we try to do is be proactive. We don't want to be reactive.

Sure. And I have -- I think I gave the example earlier. I have seen that happen. This happened to be between a private school and a public school. But when that communication happened, again, it was just -- we talked about the changing of dismissal times, but that helped.

I think you hit a great point. I think one of the greatest accomplishments the School District has made, in addition as well as Philadelphia Police and SEPTA, is the communication level. We do work together. And that's just not from a law enforcement perspective; that's from an administrative perspective as well.

Okay. Thank you. 150 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

And I believe Ms. Joyner forgot, but there's a monthly meeting held by the captain of the 6th and the 9th District for that whole corridor, which includes Ben Franklin, Parkway, Mathematics and Civics, with SEPTA School Police and the Philadelphia Police attend.

That's a very good point, because I live in the 9th District and I remember -- it's now Captain Wilson, but it was Captain Cullen at the time -- talked about that, and he thought that was very helpful to have those constant discussions and communications. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before you go, I just want to say thank you for your testimony and say this, a couple of things that have come out of this. One, the origin of this problem didn't come from one thing, whether it was SEPTA, 151 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396 whether it's communities, whether it's schools, but the solution for these problems won't come from one thing. It will be all of us kind of pitching in where we can to correct and right the ship and correct the problem. It is important that our young people be able to go to and from school in a safe manner. The challenges out here are immense. The competition is global, and the last thing they need to be worried about is how do I survive the SEPTA ride. So we got to work together on that. I'd like to thank all of the members of the Committee that came out, and thank you for your testimony. Are there any other parties that wish to testify? (No response.)

Any other parties? (No response.)

Thank you, sir. 152 4/17/08 - TRANSPORTATION - RES. 080396

Thank you. Hearing none, we're going to recess this Committee. There may well be a report that comes out of this Committee based on some of the observations, and I want to thank everybody for their participation. Thank you. (Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities adjourned at 3:30 p.m.) - - - 153 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on April 17, 2008, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)